Baroness Verma debates involving the Ministry of Justice during the 2019 Parliament

Tue 18th May 2021
Mon 8th Feb 2021
Domestic Abuse Bill
Lords Chamber

Committee stage:Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wed 3rd Feb 2021
Domestic Abuse Bill
Lords Chamber

Committee stage:Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords

Rape: Prosecutions and Support

Baroness Verma Excerpts
Tuesday 29th November 2022

(1 year, 4 months ago)

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Baroness Verma Portrait Baroness Verma (Con)
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My Lords, can the Minister assure me that the number of women who are not able to communicate, as English is not their first language, is also collected in the data that my noble friend mentioned? How are we monitoring whether women from communities that cannot communicate fully in English are fully supported by the systems?

Lord Bellamy Portrait Lord Bellamy (Con)
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I take good note of my noble friend’s question and will do my best to assure her that those pressing needs are dealt with.

End-to-end Rape Review

Baroness Verma Excerpts
Tuesday 22nd June 2021

(2 years, 9 months ago)

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Lord Wolfson of Tredegar Portrait Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)
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My Lords, I am reluctant to give a date for that because we really have to see how it works out in the courts in which it is being piloted. I have already explained that its use in cases of rape and sexual violence raises different issues from its use in the case of vulnerable witnesses in, for example, domestic abuse and children’s cases. With respect to the delays, we now have more jury courtrooms available than we did before the pandemic. We have Nightingale courts to provide more space as well. As the Lord Chancellor has said, we are running the criminal justice system hot this year; there is no limit to the number of sitting days in the criminal justice system this year.

Baroness Verma Portrait Baroness Verma (Con)
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My Lords, following on from my noble friend Lady Helic, would my noble friend the Minister consider putting it out to the police and crime commissioners to create strategies that work across their police forces to measure the progress being made by their local police authorities on responding to victims’ needs? I also refer to the critical issue of children who have been groomed and been victims of multiple rapes during the grooming process. If justice has been served, can we make sure that those young people get the support, both physically and mentally, that they will need long after they have had their time in court?

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar Portrait Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)
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My Lords, my noble friend is right to focus on the importance of PCCs in this area. Although, as I have said, the scorecards which we intend to bring in will look at local and regional data, the role of the PCCs in this regard is also very important because they are the people on the ground and they have the relationship with the local police force. Her second point is also extremely important. Victim support does not stop when there is a conviction or a sentencing. Support for victims has to carry on because we know that, for the reasons that my noble friend has said, victims are in need of support often for a considerable time after the perpetrator has been convicted of and sentenced for the crime.

Queen’s Speech

Baroness Verma Excerpts
Tuesday 18th May 2021

(2 years, 10 months ago)

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Baroness Verma Portrait Baroness Verma (Con)
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My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Fullbrook on her wonderful maiden speech today, and my Front-Bench colleagues on the way they have introduced this debate.

I will focus on—and make a plea to my Front Bench that in bringing these Bills forward they look at—knife crime. I had a failed attempt to bring a Private Member’s Bill to look at knife crime monitoring; it did not get into the ballot. I hope that I can use these Bills to ask the Government to consider making sure that those who have gone to prison and have been released and those who have been cautioned for carrying a knife are monitored for at least six months after they have been released or cautioned—I think we will get cross-party support. I say this on behalf of all those families whose children have been murdered because of knife crime.

I bring this to the House after speaking to a mother who lost her 16 year-old son because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. A person who had been released from prison and was carrying a knife—he had been in prison for knife crime—decided to stab this 16 year-old in the heart, and he died. That mother and her bravery in trying to find support for not just herself but other families has moved me to plead with my Front Bench to have a look at this.

I do not know how it would work; I am sure that the clever people that work with Ministers will be able to find a route. I hope it will not be a huge cost on resource. However, we owe it to the victims and their families to be able to assure them that people who have committed a crime are at least watched to ensure that they get the support that they sometimes need, or that the public are protected from another incident like the one that this lady in Leicester experienced. I am from Leicester, and Leicester has a high rate of knife crime. So I plead on behalf of all the families undergoing this kind of experience. This lady herself has reached out to other parents to see how she could support them. We should not, however, let people undertake this support among themselves without providing support ourselves. That is my plea.

I was not going to touch on this, but having listened to a few other speeches I will finish with a few comments on migrants. Most migrants do not make the dangerous journey because they want to. Nobody would want to leave their families behind and come across dangerous waters. The Home Secretary is absolutely right to say that we need to deal with this issue. However, I firmly believe that we keep looking at this the wrong way round. Let us help the countries build their own infrastructures so that people feel safe to live in their homes in their own countries. That applies to economic migrants. Where there is war and risk to life, the argument is very different. I hope, however, that in the 21st century we look at the levelling-up agenda not just in the context of the UK. Covid has taught all of us that we are only as safe as everyone else is, so we have to help level up not just in our own country but globally.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Verma Excerpts
Committee stage & Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 8th February 2021

(3 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Domestic Abuse Bill 2019-21 View all Domestic Abuse Bill 2019-21 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 124-VI(Rev) Revised sixth marshalled list for Committee - (8 Feb 2021)
They are absolutely right that that is how things should be but it is not how things are, as migrant status trumps victim status all too often. The one way in which the Government can convince us—and, more importantly, the organisations on the ground and migrant women themselves—that they are genuine in their claim to treat abused migrant women as victims first is by accepting these amendments.
Baroness Verma Portrait Baroness Verma (Con) [V]
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My Lords, it is a great pleasure and an honour to follow noble Lords in the debate on the three amendments in this group. I add my support for them. Noble Lords have already spoken very eloquently about the need for proper support for migrant women who have absolutely no recourse to public funds. I have seen so many examples of women who have come into this country, been married into households and then been treated in a terrible way simply because they do not have any status here.

As my noble friend Lady Helic said about enshrining legal support, domestic abuse cannot hide behind any discrimination. That is absolutely right. To sum it up—I have raised this issue on many occasions—I have met many women living in multigenerational households where they do not know their rights, what services are available or how to access them. It is a duty of any decent community or society to make sure that we are the voices for those people who are suffering—regardless, as noble Lords have already said, of what gender they are. If they are a victim of domestic abuse, they are a victim.

I have seen some horrific cases come before me. I remember one where a woman with three children spent many nights in her car to escape. She had nowhere to go; the car that she had been using for her work was all that she possessed. If we as a society are to demonstrate our humanity and meet the expectations of others—noble Lords have mentioned the Istanbul convention—then we have to lead by example.

I do not want to extend this debate because all noble Lords have made exceptionally eloquent and poignant points, but it is important that we as a civilised society recognise that this issue affects many people. I have my home in the city of Leicester. Southall Black Sisters has done phenomenal work, as have many organisations there, but everyone is going to have their hands tied if the facilities are not there for access and if information is not readily available because the victims cannot access it.

I hope that the law stands on the side of every single person, regardless of their immigration status. I am fully supportive of the amendments. I know that my noble friend the Minister is compassionate and passionate about making sure that we can remove as many obstacles as possible so that people can have the right access. I hope that she will take these amendments very seriously.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, like the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, I find it difficult to add to the arguments that have been made so persuasively in this debate.

I want to pick up the point made by my noble friends Lord Griffiths and Lady Lister. We want to make this Bill as good as it possibly can be, which leads me to the issue of evidence. Essentially, the Government are saying that there is currently a lack of robust data to demonstrate which cohorts of migrant victims are likely to be in most need of support. As my noble friend Lady Lister explained, the Government have launched a pilot scheme, which is due to run to March 2022. The Minister said at Second Reading that this

“will enable us to take well-grounded and evidence-based decisions on how best to protect these victims in the long term.”—[Official Report, 5/1/21; col. 126.]

The problem we have is that there is no guarantee that the Government will act, and 2022 is quite some way away—particularly when the evaluation would then need to take place.

One must ask how much evidence the Government need. We know that a large proportion of migrant women have no recourse to public funds, meaning that they are barred from accessing certain types of financial support, as noble Lords have already pointed out. We also know that the number of survivors of abuse with no recourse is set to increase post Brexit under the new Immigration Rules. It is quite likely that even more women will experience difficulties accessing safety and support. The Covid-19 crisis has served to demonstrate just how precarious the position of migrant survivors is and how essential it is that they can access financial support from the state. In the end, I hope that the House will have the gumption to pass amendments on Report because waiting for the pilot scheme and for the Government to review it, with no guarantee of future legislation, is simply not good enough. We have to act now.

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Lord Lexden Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)
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My Lords, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, who is next on the list, has already spoken and inadvertently appears a second time. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, has withdrawn. I now call the noble Baroness, Lady Verma.

Baroness Verma Portrait Baroness Verma (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I am very supportive of Amendment 149. I would like to put it in the context of how I see this: supporting women from BAME communities in particular, where they are separated from their families and yet the coercive behaviour continues, not just by one perpetrator but by many family members, in particular with regard to the economics of abuse or the way they poison—and I say “poison” very strongly—the minds of children against the victims and survivors. We need to have something in place that supports women. I concentrate on BAME women because I feel that they are probably those who least know how to access the services that are available and how to utilise the law as it currently stands. We need to make sure that they have as much protection as possible and are able to access it.

I know my noble friend will take away the serious implications of the amendment, particularly for the women I am trying to focus on. I feel, as other noble Lords have said very eloquently, that this is something that is critical and missing in an important piece of our legislative framework.

Baroness Butler-Sloss Portrait Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I support Amendments 149 and 157. I am very well aware of the time and shall keep this short. Victims of domestic abuse who escape the perpetrator need protection in circumstances already set out so well by other speakers—and not exclusively, I have to say, in situations of economic abuse. However, to look at economic abuse, as a family judge financial dispute cases post-divorce came before me which undoubtedly came within the framework of economic abuse. They were very difficult to resolve because those who had perpetrated this economic abuse were usually very clever in managing to prevent adequate financial relief for the spouse. However, it is absurd to suggest that the CPS would be likely to prosecute these sorts of cases as issues of harassment. Possibly it would, but I would be astonished if it did or, indeed, if the police brought them to the attention of the CPS.

As I said, I also support Amendment 157. It is broader than has been suggested and, in my view, it includes teenagers who are being forced into marriage by family members who do not necessarily live under the same roof. An example would be uncles or brothers who have already left home, but they are as abusive and dangerous to the teenager being forced into marriage as those who live under the same roof.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Verma Excerpts
Committee stage & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 3rd February 2021

(3 years, 1 month ago)

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Baroness Butler-Sloss Portrait Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I strongly support as much training as possibly can be given to everyone who works in any way in the family courts, but I strongly oppose the proposal that this provision should be in primary legislation. This is a matter for the Ministry of Justice; in relation to judges and magistrates in particular, it should be a matter for the Judicial College.

I am interested to see that magistrates who sit in the family proceedings courts have been consistently ignored in this debate, throughout many of the amendments. Many of these cases are actually in the family proceedings courts. Both the judiciary and magistrates have specific training from the Judicial College. I used to be the chairman of family training in the predecessor to the Judicial College; I certainly gained a great deal from seeking the advice outside the judiciary. Involving the domestic abuse commissioner is an excellent idea. She should be able to advise the Judicial College, particularly speaking to the family judges and the family magistrates, but this should not be part of primary legislation.

It is also important to bear in mind that each of the groups which are set out have their own training processes. Again, it would be important for the Ministry of Justice to discuss with social services and with the medical profession—almost certainly through the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the similar organisation for psychologists —whether they have adequate training for dealing with evidence of domestic abuse. Any other independent appointed experts should be looked at for appropriate training. I have no doubt that Cafcass gets training. It works with the Ministry of Justice and with the family courts, and its training is very important. But it is not appropriate in my view for this to be put into primary legislation.

I was interested to read a case in 2020 called H v F; the Court of Appeal gave helpful advice on the importance of the interface between the criminal courts and the family courts on domestic abuse issues and suggested that there should be specialist training for judges. I hope that that will be picked up by the Judicial College. It would be helpful for discussion for the president of the Family Division, but please do not put any of this into primary legislation.

However, although I do not support Amendment 133, I support everything the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, has said about the importance of training. I entirely agree with her suggestions and her very powerful speech, apart from the matter of primary legislation. I strongly support Amendment 134 because of the important research on trauma and its effect, as has already been said, on the ability of witnesses to give evidence. It is believed that very often the problems of not remembering certain things are because of trauma. There is a lot behind this which needs to become part of the training of all those involved in the family courts and domestic abuse cases. It is very important that there should be far more awareness of the impact of trauma on those who are the sufferers of domestic abuse.

Let me mention the two groups that I have referred to throughout Committee: the victims of forced marriage, and those of modern slavery who may not have gone through the NRM; even if they have, they need help for their trauma.

I do not think there is anything more to say about Amendment 136. Clearly the victim should not have to pay for the perpetrator to have contact; I should have thought any parent seeking contact should be expected to pay for it as a general principle.

Baroness Verma Portrait Baroness Verma (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I feel very privileged to be following noble Lords in speaking to this amendment. I want to put it on the record that I am chair of UN Women UK.

I shall speak briefly to Amendments 132 and 133. I fully support sharing information, from the perspective of women from minority communities. With the support of the work that H.O.P.E training is doing through Meena Kumari and her team, I have learned an awful lot, even though I have been working in this area for a very long time. I have come to the conclusion that the silos that exist have been compounded even further if someone is from an ethnic minority background, English is not their first language and they do not understand how to access services and opportunities. They live within multigenerational households, and when they finally try to leave and enter a refuge, it may not be equipped for their needs, or they enter the home of a friend of a relative who can also be put at risk.

It is critical to offer as much protection as possible and to try, through training of all our services,—whether it is the judiciary as in this case, or all our other services—to get a much deeper understanding of the perspective of women coming from minority communities, who do not have the opportunities to understand the wider support mechanisms that may be available to them. That is not just through language, but it is also through cultural norms of acceptance.

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, talked about forced marriages and modern slavery. I have come across numerous cases of forced marriages, and seen the trauma and the effects of having lived within households where every single day was a day of abuse, not just by one perpetrator but by many family members. Trying to find the will to escape and then finding yourself sitting in court rooms with the whole family on one side and you alone as a survivor on the other—it is incredibly difficult to explain the long- lasting effects of that. I cannot imagine how that is ever going to leave you and your psyche.