General Medical Council: Internal Guidance

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 17th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friends should come to a gentlemen’s agreement on who is going first.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords—

Emergency Services: Ministers of Religion

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 26th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I am sure it will be monitored, for the very reason that we need to be very clear that the police should be able to do the job that they have to do at the scenes of what might be quite critical incidents. They need to have the freedom to make those judgments but also be mindful of the wishes of people who might want to have a priest or religious leader with them at the time of critical illness or nearing death. I say to the right reverend Prelate that there is certainly further learning to be done on this, but I think this is a very welcome step forward.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, has thought been given to arranging for all of us to carry something similar to a kidney donor card in this context? One of the saddest aspects of the appalling murder of Sir David was that he was denied the last rites. He was a devout Roman Catholic; he would have expected to have them. If we could have a degree of co-ordination, so that all of us, if we wished, could carry such a card, perhaps that could be of some help.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I will certainly take that suggestion back.

UK-Rwanda Asylum Partnership Arrangement

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 25th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

No, absolutely not. This Bill has been going through both Houses of Parliament for some time. I am sure that noble Lords have observed that people are dying at sea because of the actions of criminals facilitating journeys to the UK.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, are the Government accountable to Parliament or not? If they are, why should an issue as important as this, the deporting of asylum seekers to a third country, not be subject to an affirmative vote in each House of Parliament?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I do not believe that MoUs are subject to a vote in both Houses of Parliament.

Mr Mike Veale

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 7th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, as I have said, the misconduct proceedings are ongoing. If an independent panel finds a former officer guilty of gross misconduct, it can determine that the officer would have been dismissed had they still been serving. If that occurs, the officer would be placed on the College of Policing’s barred list, preventing them rejoining policing.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the whole House holds my noble friend in high regard, but we have had this time and again. Another reputation is being besmirched—that of the Home Office itself. As the noble Lord opposite has just said, the Home Office has ultimate responsibility. Will my noble friend please, at the very least, tell the Home Secretary today that this House is virtually united in its concern at the way these events have been handled?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I note my noble friend’s comments. There is a process ongoing, and it would be wrong for me to opine on that process other than to say that it is ongoing. The Home Secretary has herself initiated a review into the IOPC, which will be commencing shortly, but I must stress that the police are operationally independent of the Home Office.

Home Office Visas for Ukrainians

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 10th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Lord might recall me talking this week about the humanitarian sponsorship pathway, which is for Ukrainians without family in the UK who want to come here. There is no cap on the number of people who can come. All they need is a sponsor. As was mentioned previously, we have been inundated with offers. One thing that I discussed this morning with Richard Harrington was how we capture that generosity and ensure that the people who want to help can help.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, we capture that generosity by being efficient. Will my noble friend tell me what is the status of Lille? On Monday, refugees were told to go to Calais and on Tuesday they were told to go to Lille. Where do these poor people go?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

There will be a temporary facility at Lille, but I want to put in context for my noble friend and others in the House the number of people who went to Paris compared with those who went to VACs in Poland. The number in Rzeszów and Warsaw was 10 times the number going to Paris, for obvious reasons. People are far safer to go to the nearest VAC as they exit Ukraine.

Ukraine: Urgent Refugee Applications

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 9th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very understandable point. As I said yesterday to the House, I know that we are training people as we speak, and surging the capacity and capability of our VAC teams from that region.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, what are we doing to liaise with the Polish authorities, who have received so many of these refugees from Ukraine? Surely, if they have been accepted into Poland, we can arrange quick transfers to the UK for those who wish to come here—many of whom have family members here.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My noble friend will have seen footage of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary there over the weekend. We are in very regular contact with Poland. I just turned to my noble friend to clarify the contact we are having with the UNHCR: it sounds regular and very thorough in enabling refugees to come to this country as quickly as possible. If someone is in Poland, and has had their visa issued in Poland, they are absolutely ready to come to this country. That is the very positive benefit of having VACs in Poland.

Mike Veale: Police Conduct Report

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 7th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The IOPC does not usually provide updates on its investigations, but certainly when it has completed its investigations, its reports are published.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, can I take my noble friend back to the Question asked by my noble friend Lord Lexden? I entirely endorse his personal comments about her, but the case of Mr Veale, who appears to have tarnished every office he has held and whose traducing of Edward Heath still remains on the record, really is extremely unsatisfactory. This should be properly investigated. For reasons I do not understand, we have heard constant refusals to have a proper inquiry into Conifer and Midland. We need one. It is not too late to have one now.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I am afraid that I must disappoint my noble friend by telling him that we do not have any plans to commission a review of either the conduct of the investigation into the allegations made against Sir Edward Heath or the findings of that investigation.

Refugees and Asylum Seekers

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 28th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I can absolutely assure the noble Baroness that everything that we do will be aligned with the refugee convention. The Prime Minister and my right honourable friend the Home Secretary have made a number of statements this weekend to that very end: that we will do everything we can to help our friends in Ukraine.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that tweeting should be a breach of the ministerial code?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

It is what you tweet.

Knife Crime

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, the Home Secretary did state, in her evidence to HASC on 2 February, that while some aspects of crime are going down, not all aspects are. The Home Office press release on 27 January stated that the figure used to show the reduction in crime excludes fraud and computer misuse. Of course, data is crucial when we are thinking about interventions in whatever crime it is.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend tell me how many knife crimes are drug related?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

As my noble friend will know, the picture of knife crime is not a simple one. Many factors drive the use of knives, both as regards victims and perpetrators, but there is no doubt that county lines drug-running does increase their usage.

Nationality and Borders Bill

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I am not trying to avoid it; I am saying that that is about as far as I can go. However, I will try to outline any further detail that I can in writing to noble Lords. Noble Lords will know—

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I will not take the intervention just yet. I do not generally make misleading comments standing at the Dispatch Box. I will further write.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

I am most grateful and apologise. Can my noble friend say whether she expects that, by the time we reach Report, she will be able to answer that question? Can she also say whether there are any countries with which we are close to agreement and, if so, what countries those are?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I cannot say what countries we are in discussion with, other than confirming to my noble friend Lady Stroud that we are having some very positive discussions with France. On the other question, I cannot acquiesce to going further at this point, because I do not want in any way to make comments that might put children in danger. As I have just said to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, I will write in as much detail as I can following Committee.

Independent Office for Police Conduct

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 2nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My right honourable friend the Home Secretary said today that there are questions about leadership in this whole horrible affair.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, may I refer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, on Operation Conifer? It really is disgraceful that an honourable Prime Minister, known for his integrity, has been impugned by somebody proven to be a liar.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I note my noble friend’s comment. I do not know what his question was but I would say to noble Lords that it clearly is terrible when someone is investigated for something for which there was no case to answer. I also go back to a point I have made time and time again: there have been well over 4,500 convictions for non-recent child sexual abuse.

Hate Crimes: Misogyny

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I would not describe Sarah Everard’s killer’s misdemeanours as minor, but I know exactly where the noble Baroness is coming from, which is the trajectory from which these things start, and I do not disagree with her on that. I am very happy with what the Government have done for the past few years: £100 million towards tackling violence against women and girls; stalking protection orders; allowing new offences to tackle forced marriage and revenge porn; and, of course, passing the landmark Domestic Abuse Act.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, is it not wise to await the outcome of the review, because there is a danger in having a proliferation of crimes on the statute book?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

It certainly is and I think that I have articulated to the House that that is what we intend to do.

Operation Warm Welcome

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 25th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

We brought 15,000 people here and 12,000 are in bridging hotels. There is slightly more complexity to it than there being no shortage of offers, because some of the families are quite big. Sourcing accommodation suitable for large families is therefore perhaps more of a challenge than it might be. But we are working at pace and across government to try to get people permanent accommodation.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Will my noble friend place in the Library a list of those local authorities that have taken refugees and a list of any that have refused? What is being done to vet hotels, following that dreadful incident where the young child fell out of a window and was killed?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I am not willing to provide a list of local authorities because one thing we were clear about, right at the start, is that this is not a name-and-shame exercise. There is gratitude for those local authorities which offer to take people and families. I can confirm to my noble friend that the hotels are of a good standard. Yes, it was an absolute tragedy about that poor child but the hotels certainly meet our standards.

Emergency Services: Ministers of Religion

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 22nd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Lord is right, in the sense that it sounds like the perpetrator was standing there, waiting to be arrested, but there has to be a framework around these things. Of course, forensic preservation is crucial at such scenes, even where it is apparent what has gone on. I am sure that the group will consider the noble Lord’s proposals.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I know this is incredibly difficult but, as we can carry donor cards and things, would it not be possible to consider compiling a register of those of us who would wish to receive the last rites at the point of death? I am sure that would bring great comfort to many families.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

We are talking here about the point of death of someone who was killed in very unusual circumstances. My family know what I would want, and I am sure noble Lords in this House have let their families know what they would want. But there is a point there about pragmatism and considering someone’s last wishes at the scene of crime.

Terrorist Incident at Liverpool Women’s Hospital

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 17th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baroness that this is a concern. That is the reason why the Home Secretary is trying to construct a new legislative framework to make sure that asylum claims are granted or, if they are not, that people are sent back as quickly as possible.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, we all support the enormous bravery of the taxi driver and salute him. There is apparently some crowd funding going on of dubious authenticity. I do not ask my noble friend to comment on that, but should it not be automatic that anybody who foils a terrorist outrage of this sort is rewarded by the Government and that any material loss suffered, such as the loss of the man’s taxicab, is dealt with on an official basis?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I do not know. I agree with the principle of what my noble friend says—it is pure humanity—but I do not know the details of what is going on in order to help the taxi driver to rebuild his life. I have seen things in the press this morning, but I could not comment on them because I do not know if they are correct. But that man is a hero.

Afghan Citizens Resettlement Scheme

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 28th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

Some contractors are eligible, and many have indeed come under ARAP. We are in the process of updating ARAP guidance now that the evacuation effort is over. Under the vulnerable persons resettlement scheme, which is now the ACRS, without going into the detail of each case, people may well come under that scheme or under general immigration routes if their employment and qualifications allow.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, none of us will forget the moving and memorable statement of the Secretary of State for Defence during that dreadful period in August when he said, “They will not all get out.” What is the current estimate of those who have not got out—including, of course, the interpreters mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly? This was a shameful incident, and we need to know.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

It is very difficult to give a figure for those who have not got out. I have given the figure for those who have got out—15,000—but it is difficult to know how many have not. Anybody contacted—and many people have contacted me—is signposted to GOV.UK to check the latest information on resettlement schemes. It is very difficult. There are people in your Lordships’ House who are desperately worried about family, friends and colleagues.

Iraqi Interpreters

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 14th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment of the noble Baroness’s question, which is that anyone who helps us should in turn be afforded the right for us to help them. Obviously, Iraq and Afghanistan were two entirely different situations but, nevertheless, people can come through a number of routes. I know that the noble Baroness is in frequent contact with my noble friend Lady Goldie, from an MoD point of view.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the whole House is in debt to the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, for the persistence with which she has fought for interpreters over some years. It would be appalling if the eight, whose predicament she has outlined so forcefully, were not admitted and if their case were not dealt with as a matter of urgency. Can I have my noble friend’s assurance that that will happen?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I gave that in my first response to the noble Baroness. I was also indebted to her and the whole House during the Afghanistan evacuation. I had all sorts of cases. Of course, we will do everything for those who gave their time and, sometimes, their lives for us.

EU Settlement Scheme

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 1st July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the figures given in the Answer appear very satisfactory. However, can my noble friend first of all confirm that “concluded” means accepted, and if not, can she please say how many people have been accepted? Can she also give the House an assurance that those who are accepted will be able to have a physical document that proves that they are indeed entitled to permanent residence in this country?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I can confirm to my noble friend that not all applications concluded are accepted. There will be some specific cohorts of people who will not have their applications accepted; for example, for various reasons to do with offending or for reasons of national concern. However, as regards the physical document, the EU settlement scheme was designed precisely to avoid a Windrush-type event, where immigration status was automatically conferred on people by an Act of Parliament but with no record made of it. Successful applicants under the EU settlement scheme receive a digital immigration status that provides that secure evidence of their status.

Immigration: Skilled Migrants from Commonwealth Countries

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 19th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, most applications for settlement were made around 2016. Some of them go back some years. The reason why they were uncovered was because of the sheer volume that HMRC was noticing as a strange pattern of behaviour. It was sufficiently unusual to draw it to the attention of the Home Office. This is not an attempt to deny ILR—this was a deliberate attempt on the applicants’ part to falsify records so that they matched the self-employed earnings previously declared in tier 1 applications.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I listened very carefully to what my noble friend has said. Is she absolutely convinced that these applications have been handled not only efficiently but sensitively, bearing in mind that we really owe a great deal to those who have provided wonderful services in our country for many years? We would all be extremely concerned if some fell through an imperfect net.

Immigration

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 14th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I disagree that we have closed down routes. The Dubs scheme specified a number, which was subsequently increased to 480. It was based on the ability of local authorities to take children—the noble Lord shakes his head, but he knows that. We did not close it down; we successfully completed it. As for Dublin, we left the European Union, so we were never going to continue it. As I said during the passage of the immigration Bill, all the routes would continue to be open and we are now in consultation on what our new sovereign borders and immigration system will look like.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I hope that my noble friend will forgive me for being specific and parochial, because I am sure that she will agree that any long-term immigration policy must allow for the free movement of people who have legitimate work to do for British employers. Those who grow our fruit and flowers have this year not been able to get the regular supply of labour on which their industry depends. I am particularly mindful of south Lincolnshire. The local television programmes night after night during the Easter period showed fields of rotting daffodils. This is a tiny thing in comparison with what many of my colleagues have raised, but it is important. Can she assure me that everything will be done to ensure that a genuine free movement of labour of people who have regular jobs to do will be able to continue?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, our new immigration system is skills-based. Free movement obviously ended under our leaving the EU. I empathise with my noble friend’s point, but the whole world is about to enter a period of economic challenge. It behoves employers in this country to employ people from this country to do the jobs needed in this country.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, are you there? We have had problems contacting you.

Police: Sarah Everard Vigils

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 17th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, in ordinary circumstances and indeed even under Covid restrictions, that would be the case. Clearly, what went wrong on Saturday will be a matter for the review by Sir Tom Winsor.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, in wishing my noble friend a speedy return from isolation, could I ask her how many demonstrations took place around the country, how many arrests were made outside London, and whether lessons can please be drawn from this in the future?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I cannot give my noble friend the exact number, but this review will give us a good idea of what lessons can be learned in what are of course very unusual times.

Life in the UK Test

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 3rd November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

No, I do not agree. The laws on planning applications could fill a tome by themselves—

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Everybody would fail.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

Yes, probably. This is intended to be a broad-brush 24 questions on our history as an overview. The test also includes questions on society and culture.

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 22nd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I most certainly would agree with the noble Lord. If we do not learn from the institutional failings of the past, how will we ever address such statistics in the future? I thank him for that point. It was deference to authority in many ways that allowed these things to go on in the past; we need to learn from that.

[Lord Cormack (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I associate myself with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Campbell- Savours, said. But how can we justify this expenditure while continuing to refuse to have a proper inquiry into the activities of Wiltshire Police, which maligned and traduced the reputation of a very notable former Prime Minister?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, there is every justification for looking into some of the institutional failings of the past, which damaged the lives of those children affected. Let us not forget, there have been 4,024 convictions since 2016 for historic allegations of child sexual abuse.

Public Order

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 9th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con) [V]]

My Lords, no words are too strong to condemn those who hijacked the peaceful demonstrations, but I am very concerned about the size of the peaceful demonstrations and the fact that most of them did not find themselves conducted as they were in Glasgow. Will my noble friend please discuss with the Home Secretary the possibility of convening a consultation with all the responsible leaders who are concerned about these issues? Can they ensure that there are no more mass demonstrations which could endanger the life of the whole community, in particular those from black and ethnic minority communities? Could this be done as a matter of urgency and then clear guidelines issued?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I must confess that I found some parts of my noble friend’s question difficult to hear. I think that what he was saying—I hope that he will nod or shake his head accordingly—is that there are lessons to be learned from Sunday in terms of not holding mass protests where the lives of black and ethnic minority individuals in particular are put in danger because of the lack of social distancing. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary made it absolutely clear yesterday that the regulations are there to be upheld and that that should be the lesson from now on in.

Historic Sexual Offences: Investigations

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 4th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with much of what the noble Lord says. Once someone is falsely accused, that can never be undone and it can blight their entire life from that moment forward. Of course, some of the people whom I am sure the noble Lord is referring to are dead and cannot defend themselves. There is some remedy in law—perverting the course of justice or perjury in court—but he is absolutely right that those allegations can never be reversed and can destroy lives for ever.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Did my noble friend read the moving words of Diana Brittan, the widow of our former colleague Leon Brittan, and does she not agree that one who has abused his place in one House of Parliament should not be admitted to another?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I read the words of Diana Brittan. I hope that the whole House will take comfort from the fact that, when the House of Lords Appointments Commission decides whether people will come into your Lordships’ House, it should consider whether that person will bring the House into disrepute.

European Arrest Warrant, Europol and Eurojust

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 2nd March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Not that I have heard. The agreement we are negotiating should provide for co-operation. But we will have left the EU.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My noble friend talks about political interference. This, to many of us, smacks of political interference: fixing something that is not broken. Time and again in the last two or three years, Ministers on the Front Bench have indicated the value of these arrangements. Why are we walking away from them?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, there are areas in which we will attempt to have very similar arrangements to those we have now with the EU. As I said, this will be very similar operationally to the EAW, but with enhanced safeguards.

Operation Midland

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 3rd February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I have said many times at this Dispatch Box that the Government would not set up an inquiry, and that Wiltshire Police could do so if it wished—it has decided not to. On Carl Beech and Conifer, I should clarify that his allegations about Sir Edward were considered at the time by the senior investigating officer in Operation Conifer to have undermining evidence, and a decision was taken not to pursue them further in that case.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend the Minister has repeatedly said on the Floor of this House that the Government will not set up the sort of inquiry for which the noble Lord opposite has just asked yet again, but never has my noble friend been able to convince this House why.

Extinction Rebellion: Prevent Programme

Debate between Lord Cormack and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 15th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord will appreciate that we do not discuss how the Home Secretary comes to decisions on proscription, but she does so on the vigorous legal advice provided to her at the time. Extinction Rebellion was on a list of those with an extremist ideology, as opposed to a terrorist ideology. However, CT Police South East has accepted that this was wrong.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that, while it is right that the police have acknowledged their error of judgment, demonstrators made an error of judgment when they glued themselves to trains, stopped people going about their normal business and interfered with people going to visit the sick in hospital? There are errors of judgment on both sides and we should emphasise that.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend makes a good point. Many errors of judgment were made in some of the protests. He is right that not only were people prevented from seeing sick relatives in hospital, some of their relatives died before they could visit them. CT Police South East has done the right thing and my noble friend is right to point out some of the issues that the public faced during those protests.