Business of the House

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Tuesday 22nd October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

My earliest recollection of the right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson) speaking in the Chamber was an occasion on which he had to wait rather longer than he wanted to ask a question. He was eventually called by Madam Speaker Boothroyd, and at the end of his question—this was only 20 years ago, so I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman remembers this—Madam Speaker turned to the right hon. Gentleman, although he was just an hon. Gentleman then, and said, “Now, Mr Paterson, I hope you are satisfied.” [Laughter.]

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Since the withdrawal Bill has huge consequences for people in Northern Ireland and since the Northern Ireland Assembly is still not sitting, I wonder whether the Leader of the House could enlighten us about the steps that the Government will now take to ask all the political parties in Northern Ireland about their reaction to the fact that this Bill has received its Second Reading this evening.

Withdrawal Agreement: Proposed Changes

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Monday 7th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I gently point out that Members who came into the Chamber after the questions started cannot now expect to be called.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

The Minister will be well aware that the withdrawal agreement we already have says that it protects the Belfast/Good Friday agreement “in all its dimensions”—those are the precise words. The withdrawal agreement also protects the constitutional status of Northern Ireland and the principle of consent. I would like the Minister to take a few moments to explain in detail to the people of Northern Ireland in particular how the Prime Minister’s new proposals guarantee those essential features of the withdrawal agreement.

Legal Advice: Prorogation

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Wednesday 25th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Extreme brevity is now required. Single-sentence questions, please, without preamble. I call Lady Hermon.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have listened very carefully to the Attorney-General—I have not agreed with a fraction of what he has said—but I would like him to answer a specific question. Did it never cross his mind that if the Prime Minister made a ridiculous decision to prorogue Parliament for five weeks in the run-up to Brexit, which is the greatest constitutional change to the UK for years, the courts would rule that to be an unlawful Prorogation of Parliament?

Northern Ireland

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Thursday 5th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Lady Hermon: a single sentence, I think.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Of course, Mr Speaker.

The Secretary of State—whom I warmly congratulate on his appointment, while also thanking his predecessor—will know from the very angry and concerned representations that I have already made to his office that I am extremely worried and annoyed that a statutory instrument which governs key appointments to a range of bodies in Northern Ireland—including appointments of QCs—has been put in jeopardy by Prorogation. I need a commitment, a guarantee, from the Secretary of State today that that statutory instrument will be debated in the House on Monday, or on Tuesday, but certainly before Prorogation. It affects people’s lives in Northern Ireland, and the Secretary of State has a responsibility to protect those lives.

European Council

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Thursday 11th April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. May I very gently say to the hon. Lady that questions to the Prime Minister are about matters for which she is responsible. The Prime Minister is not responsible for what the Leader of the Opposition does or does not say, and we have got a lot to get through, so we need it in a sentence.

[Lady Hermon]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. May I urge the Prime Minister, in the cross-party talks today, to remind the Leader of the Opposition that the Good Friday agreement and the protection of the constitutional position of Northern Ireland and the consent principle are guaranteed by her Brexit deal, which is therefore something that the Labour party should support?

EU: Withdrawal and Future Relationship (Motions)

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Wednesday 27th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene. Let me take a moment to remind the House and in particular the hon. Gentleman that Northern Ireland has not had a Government since January 2017. We have no Ministers in Northern Ireland. The head of the Northern Ireland civil service has warned as recently as the beginning of this month of the “grave” consequences for Northern Ireland if we were to leave without a deal. Does the hon. Gentleman have any respect at all for the head of the civil service in Northern Ireland or indeed for the people of Northern Ireland?

[Mr Speaker]

Before the hon. Gentleman responds, it might be helpful to the House if I explain that no fewer than 47 Members are seeking to contribute to the debate from the Back Benches, plus three Front Benchers, with a very constrained timetable. Speeches of more than about five minutes will render it impossible for everybody else to speak. The hon. Gentleman did not know that when I called him, although he could have reckoned with the likelihood of substantial demand. Economy is of the essence.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Tuesday 15th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

On a previous occasion, in early December, in what I thought was a magnificent performance, Attorney General, you used a very striking description of the backstop. You described the backstop as an “instrument of pain”—

[Mr Speaker]

I did not.

[Lady Hermon]

You are quite right, Mr Speaker. The Attorney General described the backstop as an instrument of pain. He said it was

“as much an instrument of pain to the European Union as…to the United Kingdom.”—[Official Report, 3 December 2018; Vol. 650, c. 555.]

That is very strong language indeed—an “instrument of pain” for the European Union. Will the Attorney General take some time to explain that in detail? I think that would be very helpful.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Wednesday 12th December 2018 Commons Chamber

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

The Secretary of State will be aware—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Hush for Lady Hermon.

[Lady Hermon]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Since the withdrawal agreement protects the constitutional status of Northern Ireland and the consent principle as guaranteed by the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, does the Secretary of State agree that it is unforgivable for the Labour party—the architects of the Good Friday agreement—to appear to have abandoned the Good Friday agreement by voting against the Brexit deal negotiated by the Prime Minister?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Wednesday 20th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

In recent discussions with the political parties in Northern Ireland, was the issue of the European arrest warrant raised? Will the Secretary of State come to the House and make a statement on the serious implications for the Police Service of Northern Ireland if the availability of the European arrest warrant were closed down to the Chief Constable?

[Mr Speaker]

In relation to the border.

[Lady Hermon]

indicated assent.

[Mr Speaker]

Indeed. I am grateful for that nod from a sedentary position, which is very reassuring.

Points of Order

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Tuesday 12th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I think the hon. Gentleman has just done so. I do not wish to be discourteous, but I have been in the Chair, and it is an enormous honour to have been in the Chair, without interruption, since 11.30 this morning—I have now been in the Chair for eight and a half hours, and it is my great privilege to be here and to sit through these debates and, for however long it takes, through all the points of order—but I genuinely do not think there is anything in what he said, with his usual eloquence, that requires a response from me. Forgive me, but I think he has said what he said, and I respect that.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am very grateful to you for allowing me to raise a point of order reflecting the concern in Northern Ireland. You will know that we have not had a functioning Assembly since January 2017. In the absence of a functioning Assembly in Northern Ireland, it was critical that we had a full examination and discussion today of the key amendments relating to having no hard border and, curiously, to north-south co-operation.

The term “north-south co-operation” is specifically defined in the Belfast agreement, and I have no doubt that Ministers—all of them—will have read the Belfast agreement in its entirety. It was therefore important for us to have had time today to discuss whether the Government had in fact unilaterally amended the Belfast agreement. That is a really interesting point, but we had no time to discuss it. I therefore ask your advice about how we can encourage the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland or, indeed, the Brexit Secretary to come to the House and make a statement on critical constitutional points affecting Northern Ireland and the whole United Kingdom?

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady. It is open to Ministers to come to the House and make a statement. The hon. Lady is an experienced Member of the House, and she will know that Ministers tend to preface the delivery of an oral statement with the courteous words, “With permission, Mr Speaker,” but it is in fact a prerogative of a Minister to come to the House and make an oral statement if he or she so wishes. I am sure that the point that the hon. Lady has made will be heard by the Cabinet Ministers to whom she referred, and it is open to them to do so tomorrow. Alternatively, it is open to Members to seek to procure their presence.

Equally, it is open to Members to air these matters at business questions on Thursday, if they so wish. If Members of different political parties, or of several political parties, want to air their discontent—to some extent, they have done so tonight, but they might wish to do so in a more formal way to try to influence a subsequent programme motion—it is absolutely open to them to do so, and it will then be for the House to decide how it wishes to proceed.

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland: Border Arrangements

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Wednesday 28th February 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. This exchange is eliding into a debate, which it should not be. It is supposed to be a question and answer session, and I am getting enthusiastic nods of assent from the Minister for the Cabinet Office. I exhort colleagues to resist the temptation to orate. What is required is not oration, but inquiry, which will now be brilliantly and pithily exemplified by Lady Hermon.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

What a task—I will keep to it. Will the Minister take a few moments just to confirm to the House that the Irish Government have accepted that there will be no hard border on the island of Ireland and, just as importantly, that they have accepted that there will no border down the Irish sea?

[Mr Lidington]

The Irish Government, like the rest of the EU, signed up to and support the joint report of last December in its entirety, and paragraph 42 of the report commits both parties—the UK and the EU—to uphold the “totality” of the relationships embodied in and expressed by the Belfast agreement. That totality embraces east-west every bit as much as north-south.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Wednesday 6th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. It is always a delight to hear the hon. Lady, but I will have to keep her on ice because ordinarily we take points of order after statements or urgent questions. I shall build up, as the House will, a well of expectation and anticipation to hear what the hon. Lady has to say to us in due course. Meanwhile, she may wish to interest herself in the next item of business.

Free Childcare Entitlement

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Wednesday 6th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

I will, exceptionally, take the hon. Lady’s point of order now, if she so wishes, because otherwise I will not hear it and I might feel sorely deprived.

Points of Order

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Wednesday 6th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would hate to deprive you of this request; this is a really serious issue. As you will know, we have not had an Assembly functioning in Northern Ireland, and we have no Government Ministers. I am deeply disappointed, to put it very mildly, by the fact that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has not sought an early opportunity to come and update the House on his efforts to get the Assembly up and running. May I ask you, Mr Speaker, whether through your good offices you could prevail upon the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to do the House the courtesy of coming here later today, or tomorrow, to make a statement and let the people of Northern Ireland know when this intolerable situation is going to come to an end and what the Government’s plans are for Northern Ireland, an integral part of the United Kingdom?

[Mr Speaker]

I thank the hon. Lady for her point of order. The truth is twofold. First, I have received no indication of an imminent ministerial statement on that matter. Secondly, I have to admit, and I doubt the House will be surprised, that I do not know what discussions or other work might currently be under way. If such discussions or work are taking place, it may well be thought, and perhaps judiciously, that that work should be brought to fruition first, or at least be given a chance to be brought to fruition, before the Secretary of State comes to the House to make a statement. I do not know.

What I do know is that, ordinarily, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland—the hon. Lady will know that I have dealings with a very large number of Ministers right across the vista of government—is among the most punctilious of Ministers in approaching me with a view, first, to offering me a private briefing, and then to consulting as to whether or when he should make a statement. The Secretary of State will hear very soon, because it will waft its way to him, the gravamen of what the hon. Lady has just said to the House. I hope that if the Secretary of State has got any important information to vouchsafe, he will choose to do so to the House at the earliest possible opportunity. That could well be this week, and it could well be, at a stretch, today, although I do not think the hon. Lady should expect that. I hope that it will be soon.

Visible Religious Symbols: European Court Ruling

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Wednesday 15th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

We tend to come to points of order after statements. We can hear from the hon. Lady at that point.

[Lady Hermon]

It pertains to this statement.

[Mr Speaker]

The spirit of generosity gets the better of me. If the hon. Lady is extremely brief, we will hear her point of order.

[Lady Hermon]

I am enormously grateful to you, Mr Speaker. This is a very important point. The great repeal Bill will incorporate all existing EU law at the moment of Brexit. It will therefore incorporate the two judgments of the European Court of Justice that we have just discussed. Will you seek confirmation from the Prime Minister and her Government, if possible, that the two judgments will not be allowed to remain part of our domestic law one moment past Brexit?

[Mr Speaker]

I am extremely grateful to the hon. Lady, but I fear she invests me with a power that I do not possess. It is not for me to ask the Government to take a position one way or the other. All I would say is that I have no reason to dissent from her interpretation of the legal and, in a sense, parliamentary position. However, the whole point of that upcoming Bill to be introduced by the Government is that it imports from Europe into our law a body of material with the option then to preserve, to amend or to repeal, case by case, as the Government propose and ultimately the House decides. On the basis of the hon. Lady’s expression of interest in this important matter, I feel certain that, when any such matter comes up for consideration, she will leap from her seat to acquaint the House with her views, and we all look forward to that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Wednesday 1st February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

In dealing with—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Lady can scarcely be heard by anybody, let alone the Minister.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Wednesday 20th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. This is a very serious discussion of cross-border crime in Northern Ireland. We must hear Lady Hermon.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

The Secretary of State will know that the Treasury has already announced the closure of a number of HMRC offices throughout Northern Ireland. Given that HMRC does a very valiant job in tackling cross-border crime, what guarantees can the Secretary of State give the people of Northern Ireland that those efforts will not be reduced if the offices are closed?

Points of Order

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wondered whether, overnight, you have had an opportunity to reflect on the point of order that I raised at the end of last night’s debate. The certification process is a new procedure, so it is very, very important that we get it right, particularly as it has such negative and adverse effects for MPs from Northern Ireland and Scotland. I intend no criticism of you, Mr Speaker. However, I hope that you will accept that when the Government table a new clause, which mentions both England and Wales, and then a designation is made in a certificate that it applies exclusively to England, it is inherently ambiguous and contradictory. That is the point that I was making. I should like clarification on how we correct a certificate that is designated apparently incorrectly.

[Mr Speaker]

I thank the hon. Lady for her point of order. Moreover, I can of course confirm to her and to the House that I am aware of the point of order that she raised with the Chair yesterday evening—the First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means was present at the time.

Let me say to the hon. Lady, who I know would never be guilty of any insult to, or display of discourtesy towards, the Chair, that she and the House can usefully benefit from an explanation, which, on this occasion—I will emphasise the relevance of this later—I am very happy to provide. It is understandable that she initially surmised that new clause 62 should have been certified as relating to Wales as well as to England, but the reality is, as close examination testifies, that the application to Wales falls into the category of minor or consequential as, crucially, it makes no change in the law applying in Wales. So, in the view of the Chair, which was informed by the combined advice of the Clerks and the Office of Speaker’s Counsel, it was rightly certified as relating exclusively to England.

I do not in general intend to explain my decisions in this way—that is why I emphasised that I was happy on this occasion to provide an explanation—but as this is the first occasion of a Legislative Grand Committee, and the suggestion, which I absolutely accept was honest and well intentioned, of error on the part of the Chair, is on the record, I have thought it best to put the matter straight.

That said, I should also like to take this opportunity to say to all Members that the whole point of my publishing provisional certificates is to give them ample opportunity to make representations, if they think that an error has been made or they wish simply to express a contrary view, before I am required to make a decision, which must then be regarded—for reasons with which the House will be well familiar—as final and not subject to further appeal. The appropriate channel for timely representations on the draft or provisional certificate is via the Clerk of Legislation in the Public Bill Office. I hope that that is helpful, both to the hon. Lady and, indeed, to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lady Hermon]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

I am not sure there is anything further, but I hold the hon. Lady, who is a distinguished advocate, in the highest esteem, so we will hear from her.

[Lady Hermon]

It is related, Mr Speaker. I am enormously grateful to you for making that statement and I have noted that it was an exception on this particular occasion.

Bearing in mind what you have said, Mr Speaker, may I note for the record that there are four Sinn Féin Members who represent Northern Ireland constituencies but who do not take their seats? However, they do receive support for administrative and secretarial assistance. I sit as an independent Member representing North Down and am proud to do so. I receive no additional funding at all for secretarial or administrative assistance. In the light of the very complicated certification process that has now been introduced, which affects me and other representatives from Northern Ireland, could you give some consideration to the provision of additional support for Members such as me when we have to go through the provisional certification list? That would be very helpful.

[Mr Speaker]

The answer to the hon. Lady is twofold. First, it is not for me to consider the provision of additional support in the sense in which she implies it—that is to say, financially paid-for support. Secondly—I intend no discourtesy to the hon. Lady and I am not being pedantic; I am trying to be precise—there is a very real sense in which she does not go through the certification process. I do. That is the responsibility of the Chair, with which I have been invested by the House.

Thirdly—I am really trying to be helpful to the hon. Lady and to the House in the context of what is, let us face it, a new procedure—although it is not for me to pledge or to hint at any additional support of a kind that she might have had in mind, what she does have is the support of the Clerks and other procedural specialists in this House. The hon. Lady knows well the route to the Table Office and, if I may say so, I think she should take advantage of its expertise. Our bewigged friends have very considerable expertise in these matters. They are not only prepared to advise the hon. Lady and any other Member; they are positively excited by the prospect of doing so. [Interruption.] I say to the shadow Leader of the House that the fact that they are excited by the prospect rather suggests that they will have a smile on their face at the time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Wednesday 25th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I can scarcely hear the Minister’s mellifluous tones, partly because there is too much noise and partly because the Minister understandably looked back at the person whom he was answering. His full visage should face the House—I feel sure that the House will benefit.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Will the Minister commit to meeting senior representatives of Northern Ireland companies who have serious concerns about delays and waste in the UK’s defence procurement procedures?

English Votes on English Laws

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Tuesday 7th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

The right hon. Gentleman has demonstrated very clearly that he knows his Gladstone and we are grateful to him for that. The short answer to him is that if these measures take effect, the responsibility of the Chair will be to fulfil his duties in accordance with the Standing Orders. That is the factual position. How people interpret that, what gloss—I use that term non-pejoratively—people put on it, is a matter for them. The Chair will do the duty of the Chair. People may like that duty or dislike that duty, think it beneficial or hazardous, but the duty would have to be done.

[Lady Hermon]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. My point of order relates to the response that has just been given, of which I am very respectful indeed. The Speaker will know that under the proposed changes to Standing Orders, the Speaker is actually forbidden to give reasons in the House for certification. However, the Speaker is not forbidden outside the House to give reasons for certification. Is the Speaker minded to give reasons outside the House for certification?

[Mr Speaker]

I think we are ahead of ourselves. The possibility that the hon. Lady is ahead of me, and indeed most us, is certainly not one that should be discounted. I say she is ahead of herself with no spirit of surprise at all, but there are no such Standing Orders yet. My counsel to the hon. Lady is to wait and see, or, in the words not of Gladstone but of the late Lord Whitelaw, it is probably best to cross bridges only when you come to them. Perhaps we can leave it there for today. If there are no further points of order, we will proceed with the debate.

Criminal Law

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Monday 10th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. May I say something for the sake of clarity? I do not dissent from what the Home Secretary has just said, but what I said, quite specifically, was that if the previous question were agreed to, the draft regulations would not be further considered at this sitting. I did not say, and I am not contending, that debate on these matters will be over for good. I am simply saying that the debate on the regulations would be over for today. It would of course be open to the House, which is in control of these matters, to have that debate on a subsequent day if it wished.

[Lady Hermon]

May I take this opportunity to remind Members on both sides of the House that we in Northern Ireland face an unusual threat? [Interruption.] May I ask Opposition Front Benchers to keep quiet for a moment?

The situation in Northern Ireland is very serious. Dissident republicans—the Real IRA, or whatever they want to call themselves—hide beyond the border in the Republic of Ireland. They come into Northern Ireland, and they murder people. We had a prison officer murdered two years ago, on 1 November. If his widow and his family were aware that we are jeopardising the possibility of these measures coming into force, they would be deeply concerned, as I am. Let me say to Members on both sides of the House that we must make absolutely sure that there is no time gap between these measures, which we have all agreed that we support, and the debate in the House.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Lady Hermon

Wednesday 29th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. These are very important matters appertaining to Northern Ireland. Let us have a bit of quiet for Lady Hermon.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. That was very gracious of you.

In the absence of the operation of the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland, what steps are this Government taking to ensure that Northern Ireland does not again become a honeypot for human traffickers, drug traffickers and other gangs of organised criminals?