Illegal Migration Bill

Debate between Theresa May and Jess Phillips

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. I will refer to that issue myself later on, because the Government have not thought through the implications for the numbers of traffickers and perpetrators caught as a result of this Bill.

I said that I was not going to dwell on the legal issues, but there are genuine questions of incompatibility with article 4 of the European convention on human rights, which is, of course, part of UK law through the Human Rights Act 1998, and with aspects of the Council of Europe convention on action against trafficking in human beings, such as articles 13 and 10.

However, the heart of the problem is, I believe, very simple. If someone is trafficked into the UK by illegal means, coming from a country where their life and liberty were not threatened, and is taken into slavery here in the UK, they will not be able to claim modern slavery or have the protection of the Modern Slavery Act. That would cover most of the men, women and children who are trafficked into slavery in the United Kingdom.

Let me let me give an example. A woman from, say, Romania, who is persuaded that there is a great job here for her in the UK, is brought here on false papers and put to work as a prostitute in a brothel. She has come here illegally from a safe country, but she is experiencing sexual exploitation and slavery here in the UK. That is just the sort of case, in addition to British nationals who have been enslaved here, that the Modern Slavery Act was intended to cover. Let us say that she manages to escape and meets some people willing to help. She is taken to the police, but the Government say, “You came here illegally. We’re deporting you to Rwanda.” Alternatively, the traffickers may fear that she is looking to escape, so they take her to one side and explain, “It’s no good doing that, because all they’ll do is send you to Rwanda.” We could have handed the traffickers a gift—another tool in their armoury of exploitation and slavery.

The Government might say that it will be okay if the woman helps with an investigation, because the Bill contains that caveat, but that seriously misunderstands slavery and the impact of the trauma of slavery on victims. It can take some considerable time—weeks and weeks—for somebody to feel confident enough to give evidence against their slave drivers. Under this Bill, by the time they might have been able to get that confidence, they will have been removed from this country. As my right hon. Friend said, it will become harder to catch the traffickers and slave drivers.

I could give another example. Perhaps someone comes here illegally and works in the economy, which, sadly, people are able to do, but then finds themselves vulnerable on the streets and is picked up by slave drivers and taken into slavery. Again, even if they escape, perhaps after years of exploitation, the Government will shut the door on them and send them away under this Bill. I could give other examples, but the hon. Member for Glasgow Central has already given some and I think the point has been made.

There are a number of possible solutions. At the weaker end, the Government could delay the commencement of the Bill’s modern slavery provisions; I note that the official Opposition have suggested doing so until a new Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner is in place and has assessed the impact of the Bill. It would be good to have a commissioner in place and to hear their views on the Bill, but I think that there is more to consider.

First, the Government should not introduce the modern slavery provisions of the Bill until they have assessed the impact of the changes that they made in the Nationality and Borders Act 2022, the relevant provisions of which came into force at the end of January. They are piling legislation on legislation that they have already passed, and they have no idea whether it is going to work. This approach is therefore not necessary. Secondly, they need to assess the impact of the deal with Albania, because in recent times a significant number of people coming on the small boats have come from Albania. Thirdly, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green and I have both pointed out, they need to assess the Bill’s impact on people’s ability and willingness to come forward, to be identified as slaves and to give evidence against the traffickers and the slave drivers.

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

Has the right hon. Lady seen the letter from all the Home Office-funded providers of modern slavery support services that arrived yesterday from their overarching body, the Salvation Army? Literally every single one of the specialist support providers doing the exact work that the right hon. Lady has identified has clearly stated to the Government that the Bill will make it absolutely impossible for them to provide support and help to catch traffickers.

[Mrs May]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for pointing that out, because I had not seen that letter, as it happens, but I am not surprised that those who are working directly in the field are making those points to the Government. Sadly, I must say to my right hon. Friend the Minister that I fear the modern slavery aspects of the Bill reveal a lack of proper consideration of slavery and what it means, of the experience of victims and survivors, of the need to catch the perpetrators if we are to stop it, and of the difficulties that the Bill will create. I think the Government should assess the Bill’s impact on people’s willingness to give evidence and therefore on our ability to catch the traffickers and slave drivers.

It would be of more benefit to our ability to catch slave drivers and support victims and survivors, however, if we ensured that people in slavery in the UK were excluded from the Bill. That would mean recognising the intention of the Modern Slavery Act: that those who have been in slavery in the UK should be protected by the Act regardless of their immigration status. Some of my colleagues may say, “Doesn’t that mean an awful lot of people will want to stay here?” and worry about the numbers, but actually many people who are brought here into slavery want to go home. They do not want to stay here, but under the Bill I fear it is more likely that they will stay in the UK and stay in slavery.

I could say much more about the Bill and its implications, but in the interests of time I will not. I realise that I have already spoken for longer than I told the Whip I might—a black mark in the book!—but this is in our interests. I want to sit down with the Government and find a way through that does not deeply damage the Modern Slavery Act, abandon victims and make it harder to catch traffickers and slave drivers. I fear that the Bill will do all those things. Let us find a way to ensure that it does not. Let us find a way to maintain our world-leading reputation for supporting those who are the victims of slavery, and for the work that we do to catch the traffickers and perpetrators.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Debate between Theresa May and Jess Phillips

Consideration of Lords amendments
Thursday 15th April 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con)]

If I may crave your indulgence, Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish, as the Minister did, to take the opportunity in this Chamber to pay my tribute to our late right hon. Friend, Cheryl Gillan. Cheryl was an incredible person. She was a fierce defender of her constituents and proudly put forward their interests, but she was also a great friend to MPs across this House. As the Minister and the shadow Minister recognised, she was particularly a friend to women in this Chamber. Quite simply, with the passing of Cheryl Gillan, this House has lost one of the best of its Members.

Before I comment on the amendments, I want to say a huge thank you to all those who have been involved in this Bill from the very inception of the idea of having another Domestic Abuse Bill. Although I do not necessarily agree with all the Lords amendments, I recognise that everybody has been working to make the Bill what they believe to be absolutely the best. This really important Bill will save lives and protect the too many people who, daily, are sadly abused by their partners and those they are living with in horrific and terrible ways.

I turn now to specific amendments. I have just referenced the abuse that takes place, and I fully recognise the intention behind Lords amendments 1 to 3. We should, of course, have absolutely zero tolerance of abuse by carers. The very name “carer” means that they are supposed to be looking after and caring for the person they are with. One of the most important aspects of the Bill—it seems very trivial, but it is one of the most important aspects—is the definition of domestic abuse, and the fact that we are adopting that wider definition of abuse. Domestic abuse is not simply abuse that takes place within a domestic setting. It takes place between two individuals who have a particularly close and intimate relationship, and it is that personal connection that I think is important.

The Government are absolutely right to be working with those who have raised, in particular, the abuse of disabled people to look at what protections need to be put in place, why the system is not currently working and why the arrangement that can deal with these cases does not always appear to be working. What lies at the heart of domestic abuse is the relationship between the perpetrator and the victim. That is why it is important that we do not widen the definition in the way their Lordships have proposed.

Of course, domestic abuse can continue outside the domestic setting—for example, in a workplace or online. That is one of the reasons why I particularly welcome Lords amendment 34, to extend the offence of controlling and coercive behaviour to a situation where the perpetrator and victim are no longer living together. It is a mistake to think that domestic abuse ends if the two individuals, the perpetrator and the victim, are physically separated by no longer being together in the same premises. This is an important amendment. As we know, too many survivors find themselves subject to controlling and coercive behaviour even after they have been separated from their perpetrator. I commend the role played by my noble Friend Baroness Sanderson in putting forward the amendment. I also commend her for all the work she has done on domestic abuse when she was working for me in No. 10 Downing Street and subsequently in her time in another place. I am sure she will continue to work on these issues.

I want to come on to the Lords amendments that I do not agree with. Lords amendment 33 is about training for judges. I have heard the arguments across the Front Bench on that issue. During lockdown 1, I joined Dr Peter Aitken, Elizabeth Filkin and the former Supreme Court judge Nicholas Wilson to produce a report called, “Seize the Moment to End Domestic Abuse”. We focused particularly on the Bill and its implications. One important recommendation we made to the Ministry of Justice was that the MOJ should ensure the proper training of judges on the implications of the Bill once it is enacted. The shadow Minister is absolutely right that there have been some very bad cases where the attitude of judges has shown that they simply do not understand domestic abuse, the nature of domestic abuse or the wide range of abuse that can take place. It is important that training is the responsibility of the Lord Chief Justice, and I think the commitments given by the President of the Family Division and the Judicial College are important in that respect. I would simply say to the Government that it is important that the Government make sure that those steps are put in place and that training is put in place.

I want to raise a question that may be answered later. There is an issue about who decides the nature of that training, how good the training is and what it actually covers. I am sure there are those who would say that the judiciary have had training already. Well, it is patently obvious that there are some who perhaps did not imbibe the training as well as they might have done.

This point is not specific to the amendments, but, if I may, it is not just the judiciary whom we need to ensure are trained. We need to ensure that the police, local authorities and others are trained on the implications of the Bill when enacted if we are going to see it being implemented. One thing we sometimes forget in this place is that it is not just about passing pieces of legislation; it is about what then happens with that legislation and how it is implemented.

I will now come on to one of the more contentious areas in the amendments, which has been a long-standing issue: the question of support for migrant victims. The Minister and the Government have given a clear commitment to ensure that the victims of domestic abuse are treated as victims, whatever their immigration status. Of course, systems of support are already in existence—the destitute domestic violence concession scheme, as has been referred to by others, is for those who are here on a spousal visa, while victims who are also victims of modern slavery can be referred to support available through the national referral mechanism—but the concern is that there are those who are falling through the net. The Government undertook a review. They have now undertaken to put in place the Support for Migrant Victims scheme. The Minister announced that Southall Black Sisters will run that scheme, which I welcome.

It is important that we recognise that not all victims are the same and that we are able to identify the specific circumstances and the specific protections and support needed in those cases where people are currently falling through the net. I support the Government’s decision not to support the Lords amendments on these particular issues. What matters is that victims are recognised as victims, regardless of their status. What we must now allow is the good intention of providing extra support for victims inadvertently leading to more victims.

On data sharing, which has been linked in the amendments, the issue is not as simple as it is sometimes portrayed. I am very pleased to be able to say that this is, I think, the first use of the police super-complaints process, which was introduced, as the Minister said, under the Policing and Crime Act 2017, so I have some sense of bearing some responsibility for it. That is good, because it shows that it can work.

[Jess Phillips]

It won’t be the last.

[Mrs May]

The hon. Lady is right; it won’t be the last. The important thing is that it has been shown that it works and that a super-complaint can be brought. Let us respect that process and do what has been recommended by HMICFRS—I apologise for the initials; I think I put the fire service in with the inspectorate of constabulary—and, as the Government say, undertake that review and put into place whatever is necessary as a result of it.

On Lords amendment 42, on the register, this has been a matter of debate for some considerable time. It has been raised with me by constituents and by one of my local councillors on behalf of a resident not in my constituency. What I would say is that simply putting somebody on a register does not mean that protection is going to be provided. There was an exchange across the Front Benches about MAPPA and how it is operating. MAPPA can currently cover these cases of serial domestic abuse offenders and high-harm domestic abuse offenders, so there is a question as to who would be covered who is not already covered. If they are already covered but there are still these cases, the question is not whether the system applies to these cases, but why the system is not working in relation to them.

European Council

Debate between Theresa May and Jess Phillips

Monday 25th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman heard the response I gave earlier in relation to the Government’s position on indicative votes. We will engage constructively with those votes. It is possible that those votes will decide contradictory things; it is possible that they will not decide anything at all. We will engage constructively.

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

I do not know who advises the Prime Minister, but she says she will engage in this constructively, yet she is whipping against the idea of having it and she will not make any of it binding. Just as an observer, that does not seem very constructive to me at all. But what did seem constructive was all the meetings that she had over the weekend and the people—sorry, men—that she invited to those meetings. What comes out this morning shows without any doubt to anyone, if anyone even had any left, that this is just some psychodrama in the Tory party. Every time I think that she does actually have a sense of duty, she totally disappoints me. This is about whether the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson) can become the Prime Minister, and it is writ for all to see. This has got to end. So the question I ask the Prime Minister is: if we have indicative votes and we come up with a new way for the political declaration, how can she guarantee that any of that will happen, because it will not be up to her?

[The Prime Minister]

We are working to find a way to ensure that we can leave in a smooth and orderly way and we can deliver Brexit for the British people. I think that that delivery of Brexit is what should be at the forefront of all our minds.

Leaving the European Union

Debate between Theresa May and Jess Phillips

Tuesday 26th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

I feel so enraged this week by the complete and utter lack of bravery to do the right thing for our country. Perhaps it is because I have spent my week in my constituency trying to put out the burning injustices that the Prime Minister’s Government have started where I live. I will not sit one more day and listen to the Prime Minister crow about employment going up, while where I live employment is falling and hunger is rising. I currently have one midwife—one!—for the entirety of my constituency. There are people in my constituency who are living in hotels, and who have to move out because Crufts is coming to Birmingham.

Will the Prime Minister do a brave thing and do, once, what is best for the country, not what is best for any of us? Will she be brave, and will she at least answer the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith)? Will she at least vote against no deal herself?

[The Prime Minister]

I recognise the passion with which the hon. Lady has made the point about her constituency, but time and again I am asked questions in the Chamber the implication of which is to try to deny the facts of the situation that are before us. The facts of the situation are very simple. The House will have a decision to make, but only three options will be before it: to leave the European Union with a deal, to leave without a deal, or to revoke article 50 and have no Brexit. I have made clear that the last of those options is one that I will not support, and I believe that the House should not support it, because it would be going back on the result of the referendum.

Exiting the European Union

Debate between Theresa May and Jess Phillips

Monday 10th December 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I think the best answer to my right hon. Friend is to say thank you. And I will be.

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

Does the Prime Minister think that going back and changing minutiae about the backstop will actually make any difference to the kind of people on the Government Benches who like to go around calling themselves Aslan and circle around her head caring nothing for this country, only their own position? This backstop rejig can-kicking will make absolutely no difference to those people and they know it, so what is the plan?

[The Prime Minister]

What people are concerned about is the potential indefinite nature of the backstop. There is no intention for it to be indefinite. There is no intention for it to be used in the first place. That is a genuine concern that is held by people across this House. I think it is entirely right that the Government address it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Theresa May and Jess Phillips

Wednesday 24th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend raises a very important subject. It is right that we are making these proposals on gender reform, but of course this is a very sensitive issue and we have to make sure that any changes take into account their potential impact on women. I am very sorry to hear of the experience of the individual whom he mentioned.

In the run-up to the consultation on the Gender Recognition Act and during it, officials met more than 90 different groups, including lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender groups, women’s groups, refuges and domestic abuse charities, but this is an important and sensitive issue, and we want voters to be heard. May I suggest to my hon. Friend that I will ask a Minister from the Government Equalities Office, which leads on this issue, to meet him and the individual concerned to hear directly about their experience?

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

Q6. It seems that our laws allow rich and powerful men to pretty much do whatever they want, as long as they can pay to keep it quiet, so does the Prime Minister support the Court of Appeal’s decision to back non-disclosure agreements that have been used to silence women who have been sexually harassed and others who have been racially abused?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Lady will understand that I cannot comment on a particular case that is currently before the courts. What I will say, and what I have said previously, is that sexual harassment in the workplace is against the law and such abhorrent behaviour should not be tolerated. An employer that allows the harassment of women to go undealt with is sending a message about how welcome they are and about their value in the workplace. Just as we will not accept any behaviour that causes people to feel intimidated or humiliated in the workplace, there must be consequences for failing to comply with the law. Non-disclosure agreements cannot stop people from whistleblowing, but it is clear that some employers are using them unethically. The Government are going to introduce for consideration and consultation measures to seek to improve the regulation around non-disclosure agreements and to make it absolutely explicit to employees when a non-disclosure agreement does not apply or cannot be enforced.

Syria

Debate between Theresa May and Jess Phillips

Monday 16th April 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

We have been enhancing our ability in a number of areas to deal with potential threats —I referred earlier to the potential for cyber-attacks, and we have enhanced our capability to deal with those—and of course we continue to ensure that we have the right defences whatever the potential threat.

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

I regret that there was not a parliamentary vote on this issue, but I wish to tell the Prime Minister and the House that she would have had my vote had I been asked to give it. In the future, however, it would be better were the country able to understand what was going on. I also rise to ask that everybody in this place try to have better faith in one another in critiquing whether this is right or wrong. This is not an opportunity for politics about the local elections; it is about children being gassed, and I have heard ridiculous politicking and bad faith on both sides. People need to have good faith in us. And it is not about our voices; it is about the Syrian people’s voices. So with that, I ask: where are they in all this, and what are the British Government doing with aid to try to build Syrian civic society?

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the hon. Lady for her comments, and she is right. It is important that across the House we deal with such issues with the solemnity they require. As she says, at the end of the day this is about the impact on children and men and women in Syria. We will continue to work with Syrian refugees in the region and we want to ensure, of course, that when it is possible for them to return they are able to build a stronger and more stable and secure Syria.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Theresa May and Jess Phillips

Monday 6th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

My hon. Friend raises an important point, because one concern for us is that victims of trafficking who are taken in by local authorities might be removed from those authorities, and in effect re-trafficked, as he says. We are trialling child advocates in a number of local authority areas to see what system works best for children who are the victims of human trafficking.

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

Considering the thousands of victims of trafficking who have gone through the NRM, will the Home Secretary tell the House how many human trafficking-related convictions there were in the last 12 months? How does that figure fit with the Prime Minister’s assertion that we are tackling those who commit these crimes?

[Mrs May]

The very reason why the last Government, in which I was Home Secretary, brought forward the Modern Slavery Act was to heighten the ability of our police and prosecutors to bring people to justice. There has been concern for many years, since before 2010, about the lack of prosecutions for modern slavery. The Act gives the police extra powers and has increased the sentences for people who commit this heinous crime. It will improve the ability of the law enforcement agencies to bring people to justice. That is why I look forward, under the Act, to seeing more of the perpetrators of these crimes brought to justice.