Lake District National Park Authority

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 5th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I know that my noble friend is intimately involved in these matters. I assure him that I have obtained confirmation from the Lake District National Park Authority that it recognises the legitimate interests of stakeholders. It has consulted and continues to consult widely in a number of ways ahead of any final decisions. That includes liaison with parish councils, public notices advertising its intention to invite offers for some of the properties, direct consultation with a number of neighbouring landowners and so on.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I have spent most of my life living in the Lake District National Park, which formed the greater part of my former constituency. Can we have an assurance that there will be no interference at all with existing rights of way? What is the position on the maintenance of those rights of way and bridleways which the national park carried out previously? Can we be assured that the new private owners will maintain them to the previous standards?

[Lord De Mauley]

I can absolutely assure the noble Lord that there will be no lessening of rights of way. Indeed, in one instance, there will be an improvement in rights of way as a result of these sales.

Thames Tideway Tunnel

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Wednesday 14th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, we are still working on that, but I thank my noble friend for the opportunity to say that independent financial advisers have confirmed that no water company—whatever its financial structure—would have been able to access sufficient finance at an acceptable cost for such an exceptionally large and complex project without some contingent support from government. It is important that, when offering contingent support, taxpayers’ interests remain a top priority and that the taxpayer is appropriately protected by measures that minimise the likelihood of these exceptional risks.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, have the Government made concessions to the green environmental movement, which has, throughout the country, opposed the construction of this tunnel and come up with alternative solutions? Have any compromises been made with what it wants?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, going back to the initial point made by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, who talked a bit about green infrastructure and science, we should not lose sight of the fact that these are important tools that will be used, but we cannot manage without the tunnel. In addition to the Environment Agency, a key supporter of the tunnel is a group called Thames Tunnel Now, which describes itself as a coalition of environmental, wildlife and amenity groups promoting the case for the tunnel. Its supporters include key groups such as RSPB, WWF, the London Wildlife Trust, and the Angling Trust.

Water Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 8th April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB)]

My Lords, I have some concerns about the amendment. If I can describe the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, and the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, as friends, I hesitate to object to their amendment, but I have concerns. I declare an interest in that I was, until two years ago, a chair of an insurance company.

My concerns are around the following issues. First, as a policyholder contributing to the funds that will be accumulated to create Flood Re, I am concerned that some of my contributions will be used to create resilience measures—which are, I assume, measures to reduce the risk of flooding—for a select group of properties. That is not why we will contribute the funds.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Does the noble Lord not accept that in the long term the insurance company will benefit because it will save money?

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle]

Perhaps I may respond to that as I work through my argument.

Secondly, identifying the properties that will be subject to this special treatment will require the wisdom of Solomon and might create division and resentment among other property owners who are not able to benefit from the resilience measures used.

Thirdly—here I have some sympathy with the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter—Flood Re needs a strategy for the amount of reserves that will be appropriate and need to be built up to cover flood risk. A strategic approach to the amount of surplus required is important. It will be very difficult to determine what the reserve should be to cover flood risk over a period of years, but it is essential that a reserve is established to maintain adequate funds to cover significant flood risk.

Finally, my most important point—I respond here to the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours—is that, as a policyholder, I do not want to continue contributing to a fund that has established a significant surplus. Once the surplus has been determined and achieved, I would hope that the Government and the ABI would have a mature discussion about reducing the contributions to the fund so that they do not establish an ever-increasing fund which may never be used. It would benefit the insurance companies if they did not need to continue collecting funds to contribute to this reserve. Resilience measures are essential and should be taken as properties are restored after flooding, but it is not the role of the fund to provide the resources to do that.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

15: Clause 55, page 110, line 22, at end insert—
“(e) the need to review annually the operation of the Scheme”

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, in moving this amendment, which calls for an annual review of Flood Re to deal with business which I do not believe has been concluded, I need to declare an interest. I have a leasehold interest with my wife, which I have declared on previous occasions on the Bill, in a band G home on the Thames. Although it is built on the flood plain, my flat is not threatened by flooding. It has never been flooded and can never flood because it is on the second floor. Nevertheless, I have to report that the car park area that serves our block of flats was recently subjected to some flooding, and it is with that in mind that I feel I should restrict my comments today and limit again what I have to say.

The problem with this whole debate on Flood Re is that it was never fully considered in the House of Commons. Some of the worst flooding—certainly this century and for a greater part of the previous century—actually took place after consideration in the Commons and during consideration in the Lords. I believe that many Members of Parliament in the other place would have been drawn into the debate as a result of pressure from their constituents in the event that they had experienced what many people experienced in January and February.

Before I make my wider comments, I thank the Minister for generously offering to arrange a meeting through his office, and I thank Mr Leckie, one of his staff, who has been excellent in his dealings with me. I hope at that meeting to have a representative of the ABI; Miss Anne McIntosh, the Member of Parliament for the constituency to which I referred on another occasion; and one of her constituents, whose statements I drew upon in the previous debate.

I have tabled this amendment because for many people in the country these proceedings are the most important part of the Bill, and they are watching what is happening in this debate on the internet. Many thousands of people in the country are following this debate because they feel that they have been excluded from Flood Re. While we all want Flood Re to go through, I believe that it remains unfinished business. I want to refer specifically to a group of properties, which would not include my own, that fall under the lower council tax bands A to D—mine is G, so I would not be affected by my own amendment or by what I am advocating. I choose those council tax bands because they involve, generally speaking, a group of lower- income people who can ill afford the arrangements that are being made.

I want to call on some correspondence that I received by e-mail, which a number of Members have received, from a man called Mr Junco Cochrane. He has been expressing concern in desperate e-mails to Members of this place in his best e-mail English. He says:

“I wrote to the ABI Director and have had quite a bullying type of reply. Leaseholders”—

he is one; they are excluded from Flood Re—

“have very little say and are virtually told what to do and how high to pay”.

He then points out the need to,

“prevent discrimination and distress for leaseholders”—

I believe he is speaking for leaseholders all over the country—

“who often are the poorer and older persons at the end of the property market, and with rip-off charges in various areas, often for nothing of any or little value”.

This is how he has phrased his e-mail. He goes on to say:

“Many leaseholders are pensioners and are not comfortably off ones. May I say respectfully, not like you in your fortunate situation”—

he is talking about me and my band G—

“as many of us just have the one small leasehold and struggle to keep that”.

I repeat: this man is excluded from the arrangements that are being made. He goes on to say:

“Many of us are the poorer category of households, old people in retirement flats, sheltered housing and social leaseholders, who are generally older people, of which there are millions in these types of flats”.

He is exaggerating but he obviously believes that there is a great number. He goes on:

“They are not in the ‘three’ conversions such as those referred to by DEFRA”.

We know what the three conversions are: they are where you have three flats in one block and there has been a compromise in Flood Re whereby they are now included. His e-mails to me and to others are desperate. This is the desperate voice of someone who is really upset about the way in which the legislation is being handled.

In response to people like him—and to Beverley Morris, who wrote to me on a previous occasion—the ABI maintains that insurance at reasonable rates will be made available. In a letter which the Minister kindly arranged to be sent to me, Otto Thoresen, the director-general of the ABI, gives assurances to government that it can deliver on reasonably priced insurance. He states:

“While there are a range of customers seeking insurance in the leasehold market, on the whole freeholders of leasehold property are commercial enterprises that buy their buildings insurance in a different way from ordinary homeowners. There is no failure in this market, and we expect affordable cover to remain available for such properties in an open market. For this reason, they do not need to be included in Flood Re … We fully expect the competitive market that currently allows leasehold managers to buy affordable cover to remain in place, and there remains no evidence to suggest it will not. It may be helpful to stress that Flood Re will be available for contents cover bought by individual residents in leasehold properties”—

which is true—

“and that leaseholders who insure their building in their own name will be able to access buildings and contents insurance through Flood Re if needed”.

That statement is simply inaccurate. He must know what the truth is. He must have seen the evidence that we presented on Report, wherein a lady writes to tell us that her insurance is to go five times higher than what it is at the moment. It is to go up from £5,000 to £23,000, yet Mr Thoresen gives those assurances.

That is the case with Mr Cochrane and people all over the country—very often low-income families—who live in properties many of which at the end of the day will not even be insured because people will not be able to find insurance. If a lower-income family living in a block of flats in an affected area finds that they cannot afford the insurance at the higher prices, they will still have to buy it, because those who have taken out a mortgage are under pressure from their mortgage company to insure their flats. Therefore, they are locked into high reinsurance premiums and there is no way out.

I understand that Mr Ian Fletcher of the British Property Federation, while expressing his concerns about the comments of people such as Mr Thoresen on Flood Re in general, told the Daily Telegraph—and this is his explanation as to why the insurance companies have taken the position that they have:

“We think the problem stems from the fact that insurers’ systems can’t cope with leasehold as a residential form of ownership. They are viewed as commercial properties from insurers’ viewpoints”.

Well, the fact is that they are not necessarily commercial properties. Anyhow, surely they could have changed their systems when they were devising Flood Re somehow to incorporate such people, particularly those in lower-income groups, who are going to find themselves in a pretty difficult position. That matter must inevitably become the subject of Flood Re at some stage in the future.

I move on to another group of people who feel very aggrieved. I have a note, which has just come down the line to me, from Lynne Jones, the chair of the Keswick Flood Action Group. She is speaking on another group who are excluded and who should be of equal concern to us. She states:

“I am … Chair of Keswick Flood Action Group”—

Keswick Flood Action Group is an action group in my former constituency of Workington in Cumbria—

“I am frequently asked about how to get insurance and within my duties as Chair I would also like to point out some local issues with Flood Re working against others in my community”.

She then goes on to comment on the issue of rented property and how that is affected:

“To not give guarantees to rented properties would affect some of the least well off in our town. Most of these are not covered by the Statement of Principles. Landlords’ insurance is currently commercial. The interesting issue will be whether the introduction of Flood Re will affect this market. One of the things I have been arguing for is that it should be mandatory for landlords to hold insurance and that this should cover flooding. That would be a significant improvement on the current situation. Housing associations tend to build on cheap land—flood plains. Thus here as, I suspect, in towns and cities throughout the UK, there are quite a few local occupancy and housing association homes in flood risk areas. But these are typically covered by commercial insurance”—

all excluded.

“Houses are expensive here and many locals can’t buy homes so they can ill afford high premiums—or no flood cover. Tenants will be covered by Flood Re for contents insurance, but my real concern is landlords not taking out insurance at all”.

That is because they are not included. We are not talking about vast commercial landlords, but the chap who buys the house next door or someone who buys something in the town which they may rent out.

“In addition we have a significant amount of housing stock taken over to self-catering. This is a good point and needs thinking about. What proportion of that is covered by residential insurance rather than commercial? How much is currently covered by the Statement of Principles? How much of this would be at significant flood risk? Keswick relies on tourism and the surrounding area relies upon Keswick for the wealth visitors (national and international) bring. Are these also to be denied the chance of flood insurance?

I hope that you will take this information on board when you look at the future of flood insurance”.

Again, that is a group of people concerned about the absence of Flood Re cover.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord De Mauley]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, for his amendment and I thank him even more for reminding me that, in my excitement over my earlier amendments, I have so far omitted to declare my interests, and I should do so. I own a farm, through which a tributary of the River Thames runs, I have an extraction licence, a bore hole, a house which was flooded in 2007 and a minority stake in a lake. I am glad to put that on the record.

As I explained in previous debates, Flood Re will be subject to regular review. We expect these formal reviews will take place at least every five years. These formal reviews will need to consider the effectiveness of Flood Re in discharging its purpose and functions. Importantly, the reviews will also need to consider the levy and premium thresholds, particularly in relation to its capital model, which we debated in detail earlier in relation to the amendment from my noble friend.

The reviews will also need to consider Flood Re’s effectiveness in managing the transition to risk-reflective pricing over the operation of the scheme. As I said earlier, the secondary legislation will set out in more detail the points that Flood Re’s transition plan should cover. Flood Re will have to lay its accounts in Parliament on an annual basis, and its responsible officer will be directly accountable to Parliament. The Comptroller and Auditor-General will examine Flood Re’s economy, efficiency and effectiveness as well as its propriety and regularity.

It is also important to note that there is nothing to preclude the formal reviews taking place more frequently, which the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked me to confirm, should concerns be raised; for example, if it is seen that excessive surpluses are being built up.

I hope that it is clear that Flood Re is going to be regularly reviewed and closely scrutinised, but we need to strike a balance and, in particular, I am concerned about significant risks to the certainty and stability of Flood Re income if it is under constant review. Flood Re, the insurance industry and policyholders need to have some degree of certainty about its operation and Flood Re must be allowed to plan for transition accordingly. Insurance is a long-term business. An annual review of the scheme would be resource intensive and I am not clear what added value it would bring in addition to the current arrangements for parliamentary scrutiny.

In addition to the formal review process which will be carried out at least every five years, as I have described, both the Government and the Association of British Insurers have committed to monitoring the market for flood insurance and will publish the results of that monitoring.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Will the Minister ask his officials to contact the ABI and ask it, prior to our meeting, how it responds to the cases that I have brought forward of people who say that they cannot find insurance or that their insurance premiums rise five times over, or whatever? I would like to hear its response prior to the meeting.

[Lord De Mauley]

I will certainly do that. I, too, would like to hear the answer.

This ongoing monitoring will enable us to identify trends and any potential issues in the market, including in the leasehold sector, to which the noble Lord referred. We have discussed the rationale for the scope of Flood Re at length and in detail in your Lordships’ House. The design of Flood Re was guided by three principles: affordability, progressivity and fairness. We have been clear that Flood Re should not increase the cost of insurance for those at low or no flood risk so it is fair to all households. To achieve this, Flood Re will replicate the cross-subsidy that currently operates in the domestic market. The benefits of Flood Re will be targeted at lower council tax bands, where affordability is more likely to be an issue.

In previous debates, I have gone into some detail on the thought process behind the leasehold sector; if the noble Lord will forgive me, I will not reiterate those arguments. I am, as he knows, sorry to hear about the specific examples he cites. As I have said, I would be happy to speak to the ABI about the initial case to which he referred. It would be helpful to me to have some more details; perhaps we could discuss that.

The noble Lord also asked about the letter from Otto Thoresen. I am sorry that he feels that the assurances from the ABI are inadequate. We have previously asked for evidence of problems and, to date, have had nothing but anecdotal evidence. Again, however, if the noble Lord would like to share the details with me, that would be helpful and I would be happy to take the matter forward.

I have a number of notes here which deal with matters that we have dealt with at some length in earlier debates; I hope that noble Lords will forgive me if I do not simply reiterate old arguments. It might be helpful if I deal with the issue of maps, which some noble Lords have raised. It was probably the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, who asked what happens if a property is not proven to be at risk. If a home owner has evidence that the maps do not accurately reflect their level of risk, they can provide it to their lead local flood authority or the Environment Agency for review.

There was a complaint that it takes too long for the Environment Agency to update maps and then share them with insurers. The Environment Agency—and I see the chairman in his place—revises the rivers and sea flood risk maps on a quarterly basis. It is possible that some insurers do not choose to receive updates as regularly as that, which could explain the time lag that some people have experienced. It almost always pays to shop around or to contact a specialist broker to explore ways of reducing premiums. This is important: there is a competitive market in the United Kingdom which will and does help to keep prices low. From personal experience, I know that different insurers take different approaches to pricing risk, which is, as I say, why people should be encouraged to shop around. One of the benefits of Flood Re is that it enables the provision of claims data from the insurance industry to the Environment Agency to help improve risk mapping in the future.

Under the statement of principles, people had to stay with their existing insurer to benefit. Therefore, they were prevented from shopping around for the best price—something I have been going on about at some length. Once Flood Re is up and running, people will be able to shop around, with those in scope knowing the maximum they should expect to pay for the flood risk part of their premium. Insurers have estimated that only 1% to 2% of the market would expect to pay prices higher than the proposed premium thresholds which were set out in the impact assessment. These are the people who will need Flood Re. The majority of the market is expected to be covered by prices lower than those offered through Flood Re. I hope that that is helpful and that, on that basis, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I thank the noble Lord for his response. I do not want to detain the House. As I say, we will have to come back to these matters in the future. I hope that, in light of what the Minister said, he will be looking for further information. Those who are watching this debate on the internet might well send me their concerns about it, and I will forward them to the Minister. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 15 withdrawn.

Water Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 31st March 2014 Lords Chamber

These things often happen quicker that we can imagine. Just because we have had one very bad winter with a lot of floods, does not mean it will not happen again quite quickly. It was always my experience that when we had a major drought, it was immediately followed by a flood when I had responsibility for dealing with it. Whenever I was told that there was a one in 100-year risk, the flood happened the following year and probably twice in the next two or three years, so this may happen quite quickly. In that case it may be my noble friend Lord De Mauley who receives the flak and the present Government, or it may be the successor Government in the very near future. Therefore, I hope we can receive some reassurance that this is not the end of the story, and that every effort will be made to improve on the negotiated scheme that we have before us.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, as in Committee, I need to declare an interest in that I have a leasehold interest, with my wife, in a band G home on the Thames built on the flood plain. My flat is not threatened by flooding, has never been flooded and can never flood because it is on the second floor, and the whole of the south of England would have to be flooded before we were. Nevertheless, I have to report that a car park area that serves our block of flats was recently subjected to some flooding, and it is with that in mind that I feel that I should restrict my comments today and limit what I have to say, and I will not be voting on the issue.

All I want to do today, without commenting on the issue in the light of what has happened, is to read a letter which has been sent to my noble friend Lord Whitty, the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, Mr Owen Paterson MP and Ms Anne McIntosh MP, who I understand is the chairman of the Select Committee in the House of Commons. I simply want to read the letter, which the Minister has seen, because I think that it should be on the record so that all those in the industry outside can read what it says.

The letter is from a Mrs Beverley Morris of Topcliffe Mill, Topcliffe, Thirsk in North Yorkshire, and she has given me permission to read it. Part of it states:

“If I may give a brief summary of our current situation to further expand upon our current predicament.

This building, known as Topcliffe Mill (Mews), and built as a water powered corn mill circa 1800, was subject to a ‘once in 100 hundred year’ flood on 26th September 2012. Apartments 1, 2 and 3 on the ground floor were flooded along with 2 communal areas. Three houses in the same location behind the Mill were also flooded”.

Here we are talking about a leasehold property.

“Much of the North East was flooded during this period and Topcliffe Mill was ‘sandwiched’ between the swollen River Swale to the front of the building and the saturation of the fields to the rear.

Topcliffe Mill building insurance policy is purchased by a small management company, Town & County Properties (Wharfedale) Ltd and the premium (pre flood) was just shy of £5,000 for the year 2012, divided between the 12 homes. Post flood and following the claim, the renewal premium was and continues this year at £23,750 divided between the 12 homes, an increase of almost 500% per home. My husband and I are now paying £2,000 per year for a Band C, 4th floor”—

fourth-floor—

“domestic flat that we have made our home for the past 10 years. As we are not in a position to pay this amount up front and on demand, arrangements have been made to pay by instalment, which in itself incurs extra charges.

The ABI are offering assurances that ‘there is no systematic problem with freeholders being able to obtain insurance for their leasehold properties’. Our management company, have indeed secured building insurance, as I understand they are legally required to do, but at what price? The insurance companies, who know this, have our management company and us over a barrel it seems.

T & C Properties Ltd had their agent, J M Glendinning of Guisley in Leeds thoroughly search the insurance market for a better deal and it was to no avail. As owners, we took on the challenge of checking out the markets ourselves and if required we can supply documentary evidence of refusals, although many refused point bank on the telephone to even consider it. Our management company and their agents are also prepared to lend their testament to the situation we find ourselves in. I am at a loss to see how this scenario fits with the ABI’s explanation either now or in the future if leaseholders are excluded.

Referring again to the Food and Rural Affairs Committee meeting 11th March 2014, Ms McIntosh discussed with Aiden Kerr the issue of SME exclusion from Flood Re. He gave his explanation stating that Flood Re ‘is limited to households’. As we are not an SME but a collection of households, it begs the question, does being a leasehold define us as not a household?

During the session 11 February 2014 you drew attention to the services of the Financial Ombudsman Service. We, however, have no recourse to them to make any complaint into the risk assessment that led to our mighty high renewal premium and nor will we in the future, because the policy is not in the name of the domestic leaseholder. Would the management company complain on our behalf? Doubtful, since they are not financially affected, transferring all the associated charges directly on to the leaseholder …

The notion that one might sell up and move on, being unable to meet the management fees is something of a forlorn hope. Everyone is aware of how property values have fallen and the North East of England is not experiencing the same improvement to values as the south. Add to this a history of flood— albeit the first in 100 years. The financial security of our household stands to be jeopardised, in terms of our ability to meet mortgage payments due to over stretched resources and/or the ability to secure reasonable flood insurance.

The opportunity to afford us the same level of assistance being offered to freeholders is likely to slip by if we are not included in the Flood Re scheme. Given that the decision to have a cap in place in the medium term has been taken, I feel it only fair and just that leaseholder homes are included”.

As I said, my position has changed since the last time I debated these matters, but that testimony is from someone who is directly affected, and a five-times premium increase in the north of England on a band C flat on the fourth floor of a block of flats is something that Ministers should seriously think about. Indeed, I would have thought that Parliament would have addressed that problem.

[Baroness Parminter]

My Lords, the aim of Flood Re is to support people at the highest risk of flooding who would struggle to find affordable insurance on the open market. The way in which it is funded, as the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, has reminded us, is via a levy to provide a funding pool to use for the purposes of the scheme. Many contributors are likely to be at a low or no risk of flooding, but this approach spreads the risks across a large population to make it more affordable.

The question that we are trying to address here is whether it is fair to include specifically band H council-tax and post-2009-built homes—I am not going to address leaseholders because, as other noble Lords have mentioned, we are going to come back to this with an amendment from the noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Grantchester. There will be a small number of asset-rich but income-poor in band H houses. In Committee in this House, the Minister confirmed that 0.5% of such households are in the five lowest-income deciles, or 45 properties in flood risk areas.

A letter to the Committee in the other place from the Parliamentary Under-Secretary Dan Rogerson on 10 December 2013 confirmed that the cost to add band H houses to the scheme would be between about £1.4 million to £5.4 million, funded by an increase of up to 3% in the levy paid by all householders. Given that small number of asset-rich but income-poor, and the high cost to add these to the scheme, I do not support their inclusion in Flood Re—indeed, it would be a regressive measure—but I would certainly hope that lead local flood authorities will target some of their funding to address the impacts on vulnerable elderly people in their areas. Targeted mitigation of the impacts of this exclusion would be a far better approach and, as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, said, is supported by the National Flood Forum.

Houses built post-2009 were excluded by the previous Administration from the statement of principles, which preceded Flood Re—the reason being that, with strong planning policies in place, such homes should have been properly assessed for flood risk. Equally, the date as set was important to avoid incentivising development in areas of flood risk. I accept that that is not perfect, but the exclusion of post-2009 from the band H properties was widely consulted on by the Government last year in advance of drawing up these proposals and was broadly supported. Hundreds of thousands of homes will benefit from Flood Re and, frankly, we need to get on with it. I am satisfied that this approach is fair and targeted at those most in need, and with regret I therefore will not be supporting the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for his Amendments 89 and 90. He raises issues which I know are of concern to people and I thank all noble Lords who have spoken on all sides of the argument.

Amendment 89 to Clause 51 would require that all properties included in the calculation of the levy are eligible for the scheme. It is important to remember that while many homes in the United Kingdom are at some risk of flooding, Flood Re is designed to address an affordability issue for the 1% to 2% at the highest risk of flooding. The levy will provide Flood Re with a funding pool which will be combined with the premium income from those policies which are to be ceded to Flood Re. This will be used for the purposes of the Flood Re scheme, including the purchase of reinsurance and payment of claims. The purpose of having a pool, as is the case for much of our taxation, is that costs are shared by many so that those most in need can benefit. If everybody who paid the Flood Re levy stood to gain, there would be fundamental implications for the required amount of the levy. Alternatively, if the levy was limited to flood-prone households, the pool would not be large enough to have a significant impact on prices and therefore on the affordability of flood insurance.

The insurance industry has been clear that low-risk and no-risk householders have historically subsidised flood insurance for those at a higher risk of flooding and that the move to risk-reflective pricing will over time remove this cross-subsidy from the market. The levy simply replicates and formalises this existing cross-subsidy. Indeed, the ABI has assured us that the levy can be introduced without having an impact on bills in general for householders at a low risk and no risk of flooding, for those in band H or for those with properties built after 1 January 2009—that is, those outside the pool.

If I understand the noble Earl’s intention correctly, I think he is particularly concerned to ensure that those properties which are not eligible for the scheme—such as band H properties, properties built after 1 January 2009 and certain leaseholders on commercial policies—either stand to benefit from Flood Re or do not pay the levy. While I understand that cross-subsidising something from which you will receive no benefit might be perceived as unfair, I have explained why there always have to be some net contributors to make a pooling system work, and this includes the overwhelming majority of households at low risk or no risk of flooding. We discussed the rationale for the scope of Flood Re at length in Committee, and I explained that we think that we have got the balance right. The Government’s approach was widely supported in the response to the 2013 consultation. This approach means that those who are most in need of support will receive it to enable a smooth transition to the free market.

The noble Earl commented on the complexity of the scope of Flood Re. The proposed criteria reflect the current situation for purchasing a domestic insurance policy. We are not seeking to change the circumstances under which insurance is purchased through Flood Re. We must remember that Flood Re is designed to help those people at the highest flood risk, which we estimate could be around 500,000 households. I have heard some very fanciful numbers being bandied around, and they all miss this point. I am not saying that the Government are not still listening to the debate. We will monitor the market, as will the ABI, and we will publish our findings. Should the evidence point to specific issues with insurance for particular sectors, we will discuss with the insurance industry what might be possible.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The Minister referred to fanciful figures. The figures I produced on behalf of the lady in Thirsk were real figures showing a five-times increase. She and the 11 other people in flats in the same block are not covered. How can the Minister give an assurance that it will have very little impact on these sorts of people?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I was not for a moment suggesting that the lady to whom the noble Lord referred was one of those bandying around that sort of figure—by no means. It is difficult for me to speak about a very specific instance but, if I can, I will come back to that later. I was referring to estimates of the number of households involved. I hope the noble Lord understands that.

Several noble Lords referred to band H properties. In designing Flood Re, we have been very clear that we want to target the benefits where they are most needed while not increasing the costs for those not at flood risk. On that basis, we believe that it would not be justified for band H and equivalent properties to be included. The progressive nature of Flood Re received wide support in the public consultation.

Let us be clear that the exclusion of band H properties was set out explicitly as part of the June 2013 memorandum of understanding. This document reflects the needs of both parties and was agreed by the Government and the ABI on behalf of its members. In designing the scheme, the Government and the industry needed to ensure that the pool was viable and affordable. Including band H properties would increase the costs of Flood Re overall, which could result in a reduction in the benefits to households in lower council tax bands or an increase in the levy for all households. We stand by the decision to target support to those in lower council tax bands, as reflected in the memorandum of understanding.

Responding to the points raised about affordability for those in this council tax band, our analysis suggests that relative to other bands, a move to risk-reflective pricing would have limited impact on the affordability of a combined insurance policy for band H households. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, referred to concerns that those households, which might be asset-rich but income-poor, would be at risk though this approach. We looked closely at this. According to the 2011 living costs and food survey published by the Office for National Statistics, 85% of those who live in band H properties and hold a combined insurance policy are in the top 30% of earners with 48% in the top 10%. More significantly, perhaps, only 0.5% of such households are in the five lowest income deciles, which translates to roughly 45 properties in flood risk areas. I think my noble friend Lady Parminter mentioned that.

The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and others referred to small businesses. As I said in Committee, we gave careful thought to the scope of the Flood Re scheme and consulted on the proposed figures on the domestic insurance market, which received broad support. The consultation responses did not provide evidence of widespread problems for small businesses with secure and affordable cover, although anecdotal examples of problems in some specific geographical areas were put forward. A government survey of more than 9,000 small businesses in England found that less than 1% of businesses had experienced difficulty getting property insurance in the past year due to the risk of flooding, and that no businesses had been refused insurance cover due to the risk of flooding.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity provided by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, to discuss the eligibility of leasehold and tenanted properties for Flood Re. In Committee, I said that we would take more time to look at the issue for lease- holders with the ABI and that we would provide further information on the scope of Flood Re.

We have developed with the ABI a briefing note that sets out the scope of Flood Re and covers proposed new subsection (1) in the noble Lord’s Amendment 89B. In summary, the note, which is available online, confirms that domestic contents policies will be available to all under Flood Re, regardless of whether properties are leasehold or freehold, rented or owner-occupied, except those properties in band H and those built from 1 January 2009.

Leasehold houses will also be in scope of Flood Re, provided that the leaseholder lives in the property and purchases the buildings insurance in his or her own name. Flats will be eligible, provided that there are not more than three flats in the building and that the freeholder, or one of those with a share of the freehold, lives in the building and takes out the cover. Setting the eligibility to a maximum of three flats reflects the general limit that the insurance market is willing to cover under a domestic or personal lines policy. There is already a competitive market for insurance for properties with four or more units, which we expect to continue. As I have already said, we and the ABI will monitor the market to ensure that that remains the case. We believe that a significant proportion of the leasehold sector will be in scope of Flood Re, but I should emphasise here that we expect most properties will not need to be in Flood Re and will find better prices through normal routes.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, suggests that that is all very complicated and does not go far enough. We have looked carefully at that with the ABI. Flood Re should be available only to those who need it. Indeed, in an earlier debate the noble Lord to some extent agreed with that. The ABI has assured us that the same systemic issues relating to availability and affordability do not exist for larger-scale leaseholders and commercial managing agents as in the domestic home insurance market.

The insurance industry has recently written to assure the Government that it does not expect there to be widespread issues over access to the insurance market for those parts of the leasehold sector which will be out of scope of Flood Re, which I am sure that noble Lords will agree is very welcome reassurance. The industry is clear that there is plenty of capacity to continue to provide insurance on a competitive basis.

I turn to the tenanted sector. As we discussed at some length in Committee, landlord insurance is out of scope for Flood Re for buildings cover. Landlord insurance is classified by the insurance industry as commercial. However, again, we have been assured by the industry that the majority of landlords will be able to find a more competitive rate outside Flood Re.

I emphasise that the proposed scope was not developed on the basis of cost: it is the nature of the policy which is key. The Government are clear that it would not be appropriate for landlords, who gain commercially from renting properties, to benefit from a subsidy on other households.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The Minister referred to the fact that the ABI has given assurances that that insurance will be available at competitive rates. Were they oral or written assurances? If they were written, is it possible for those assurances in writing to be put into the public domain so that interested parties can examine the assurances that the ABI has given to the Government?

[Lord De Mauley]

That is a very good point, my Lords, and I will see what I can do.

The Government collect certain information and data as part of the English housing survey. However, the granularity of data on the different parts of the sector sought under the amendment is not currently available. Data are collected from owner-occupied homes on whether the home is owned leasehold or freehold, but not from homes that are let in the private rented sector or from the social rented sector. In the past, those partial data have been used to estimate the total number of leasehold domestic properties in England across all tenures, although I understand that the methodology used is currently under review.

The 2011 census provides some information about whether people live in a flat or a house and whether they own it or rent it, but did not collect data on the number of leasehold domestic properties. There are also no data sets that would distinguish between smaller landlords and large multisite commercial operators, as far as we are aware.

The insurance industry could provide information which would help with a general estimate of the cost of including additional properties to Flood Re. However, the value of that would be limited without the numbers in each of the categories specified in the amendment and how many of those are at sufficient flood risk to be ceded to Flood Re. We have looked at a range of potential address-level data sets to try to map their records to flood risk, but again the data are unsuitable.

The conclusion has to be that what is specified in the amendment is unachievable to any degree of accuracy. It would also be only a snapshot in time and would quickly become out of date. The Government and the ABI have committed to monitoring the market—including for both domestic and business premises.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, suggested that there had been no direct engagement with the property sector. We consulted publicly on our proposals and received representations from the property sector. Indeed, I met representatives of the leasehold sector and asked them to come forward with evidence that the same problems exist in the commercial insurance market. I must say that evidence received to date is very limited, but that offer remains.

I therefore argue that reporting as set out under the amendment is not needed, as the market monitoring already planned will provide data on how the market is operating. I assure noble Lords that we will keep this matter under careful review. As I said, the Government also plan to publish the findings and make them available to Parliament.

The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, asked why we cannot treat landlords of just one or two properties differently from the more large-scale landlords. We have not heard evidence of widespread problems for smaller landlords in securing affordable insurance and there is therefore no apparent need to extend the scope of Flood Re to include them. Furthermore, it would not be practical to ask insurers to try to distinguish between different types of landlord. With the exception of policies purchased in a block or those purchased under a business name, many insurers would find it difficult to tell whether landlords have a large or a small property portfolio. This is not just about pricing policies: it would also make it more difficult for insurers to work out the market share when paying their share of the levy.

Turning back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, I understand that it was made in a letter to the Secretary of State, and I can provide a copy of that to noble Lords who have participated in this debate. That might be helpful.

For the reasons that I have set out, I hope that the noble Lord will be prepared to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Krebs]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, has said, this amendment is concerned with the possible surplus or cash reserves that Flood Re might build up. We have to recognise that although Flood Re is being designed as an integral part of the insurance industry it will be a public body spending public money and will operate on a not-for-profit basis. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, has indicated and the Government’s own figures suggest that there might be reserves of more than £100 million after one year. If that surplus exceeds the amount that is required to cover claims in any one year—again, the noble Baroness indicated a figure of £250 million—it would seem perfectly reasonable for that money to be used to manage down Flood Re’s own exposure to future claims and it could do so in a highly cost-effective way. This is about value for money. One estimate is that £4,000 spent on a property could prevent a number of claims on Flood Re averaging £45,000 a time, so the return on investment is going to be enormous.

The adaptation sub-committee which I chair has estimated that there are 190,000 properties in England where fitting flood-protection measures would be cost-effective, but progress in fitting them at household level has been very slow. In fact, the rate of uptake would need to increase by a factor of 20 to fit all such measures within the lifetime of Flood Re. This amendment recognises the potential to do more to protect high-risk households and the opportunity that the surplus reserves might represent. Investing in resilience now would leave high-risk households better able to afford flood insurance once Flood Re has withdrawn and, rather than adding to the cost of the levy, investing in this way promises to help minimise the costs of Flood Re over the lifetime of the policy.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The noble Lord referred to 140,000 properties. How would they be prioritised? How would they be selected to be subject to the benefit of this measure?

[Lord Krebs]

The figure I mentioned was in fact 190,000 properties. I do not have the detail of how they would be prioritised, but over the lifetime of Flood Re it is hoped that all 190,000 could be fitted with household protection measures that would increase their resilience against future flood risk.

As I was saying, investing the surplus from Flood Re would help to minimise its costs over the lifetime of the policy. To achieve that, Flood Re will have to invest in flood protection to reduce future claims. As this amendment indicates, guidance is needed on whether and how surpluses might be used and under what circumstances investment in household resilience should be pursued. So it is not prescriptive; it is just saying that guidance should be included. I think that perhaps answers the noble Lord’s question.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I am taken a bit by surprise by this amendment. I had not intended to speak at all but as the noble Lord was developing his arguments I began to realise what the value of this could be. I have a letter here from Keswick Flood Action Group which I referred to in Committee. It makes recommendations on the question of the reinstatement of homes and resilience. I want to read on to the record what it says because most of my contributions on this Bill up to now, certainly in Committee, have drawn on information that has been brought to me by people who have been flooded, because very often they know more than anyone else. Lynne Jones, chair of Keswick Flood Action Group, says that the Government should,

“pass legislation so that insurance companies are required to reinstate homes in a flood resilient/resistant way. Insurance companies, quite rightly, will not pay for ‘betterment’ but these days they have to reinstate with insulation to regulatory standards, even if no insulation was present before, because they are required to do so by law. So why can’t flood measures be treated in the same way?”.

She goes on to make a very simple proposition which, when I think of the flooded properties that I surveyed when I was an MP, seems to me quite logical:

“For example dropping the electrics down from the first floor so raised sockets rather than rewiring from ground up; replacing wood floors with solid waterproof concrete etc”.

Then she goes on to suggest that the Government,

“provide people with independent advice on property reinstatement, maybe via Local Authorities’ Buildings Regulations Officers”.

If there is a surplus, why not consider spending some of it in this sort of area? She goes on to say:

“What people need is knowledgeable counsel from somebody who isn’t going to profit from the works. Flood victims are the target for every rogue trader under the sun post-flood and not everyone knows what products are available/would most suit their needs. Such decisions come at a time when they are exhausted, stressed and suffering financial hardship, they are truly at their most vulnerable”.

As I said, when I was an MP and also afterwards I visited homes where people had been flooded and we know there is tremendous distress. If there are these surpluses, perhaps we should ask whether they can be deployed as part of the process of advising people so that the rogue traders do not go in and do the work and rip people off. That is a far more professional approach. The simple idea of feeding electric wiring upstairs as against downstairs seems absolutely elementary. I wonder how many properties have been done up with grants from government and bills paid by insurance companies over recent years where those very simple, remedial steps to dealing with problems in particular homes have not been taken.

In many ways I think this is a very interesting amendment. I had not really thought of the surpluses. We do not want to waste money but surely it can be used in such a way as to promote the policy of developing actions for resilience.

[Earl Cathcart]

My Lords, I am afraid I cannot support this amendment. To me it shows a misunderstanding of the role of insurance more generally and of Flood Re in particular, which must build up its funds from premiums to cover current and future losses smoothly. The scheme already has five-yearly reviews so that all assumptions can be reworked and contributions adjusted, either upwards or downwards. Diverting funds into the totally separate adventure of pre-emptive risk mitigation is not a function of insurance and nor should it be for Flood Re. The analogy is asking car insurers to invest in better road signs or road infrastructure. It might help mitigate the risks but it is not the role of the underwriting industry; it is the role of government, national or local.

Flooding: Agricultural Areas

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 3rd March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, as my noble friend knows, we have huge sympathy for those who have been affected and we are doing what we can to help. In my supplementary answer to my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury, I outlined a number of the schemes that are available. I suspect that I am going to need a bit more information about this specific case, and if my noble friend would like to get in touch we will see what we can do to help.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, is there not an argument for turning agricultural land that floods into reservoirs, thereby providing upstream storage of water which would help alleviate flooding problems, particularly in the Thames Valley?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, we are looking at a number of possible ways in which we can do this. The noble Lord will know that these things are not simple. I will have to ask him to have some patience while we look at the various options.

Water Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Parminter and strongly welcome the Government’s proposals on the Flood Re scheme. Getting insurance in high-risk areas is of fundamental importance to the individuals affected; the outcome of the negotiations and planning that have gone into the scheme is very important. All those who have taken part in that should, in my view, be congratulated.

However—I refer here specifically to Amendments 154A and 154B—Flood Re cannot be just about reinsurance: it also has to be about reducing flood risk over time by getting householders who have been flooded and claimed on their insurance and householders who are at high risk to invest in better flood protection. As my noble friend Lady Parminter said, in 25 years’ time we should not be in a position where we have not made any progress in flood protection and end up simply repeating the process. Therefore, Flood Re should not be seen simply as a financial transaction providing a means of reinsuring properties at risk, or deemed to be at risk. We have to go a step further and provide incentives for people to engage proactively in flood risk management. There are clear benefits in this for the insurance industry: better protection will lead to lower total claims. Householders will gain greater security from flooding.

Amendments 156A and 156B—which are intended to be probing amendments—are about the duty of the Flood Re scheme administrator to co-operate with all those bodies that have an existing duty to co-operate under the 2010 Act. It is very important to put this point in the Bill because, as I said, the scheme should not be seen to have just a financial role: it has to be about resilience as well. The introduction of the FR scheme administrator means that strategic interventions can be undertaken. For example, each household in a given high-risk area might be with a different insurance company, so developing strategic solutions involving the insurance industry, which has not so far been possible, now could be. Examples are in data sharing: competition rules have meant that it is not possible to get access to insurance claims data to identify trends in the scale and frequency of flooding. Having this data available through the scheme administrator, alongside public information held by the public agencies and the water companies, could be crucial in making investment decisions to reduce flood risk and, of course, future claims. The FR scheme gives us an opportunity to enable this information to be made available for high-risk areas and we need to make sure it happens as part of this Bill.

My noble friend Lady Parminter referred to the Committee on Climate Change—and we might hear more about that shortly—but the estimate that there could be up to 190,000 homes that could have their flood risks reduced through measures to protect them is a very important factor. Flood Re could be charged with taking a more proactive approach to encouraging and supporting those people in high-risk areas to protect themselves better. As my noble friend Lady Parminter has made clear, there could be systems of loans and investments as well to assist householders.

There is a danger in the proposals in the Bill that people in high-risk areas will simply be satisfied with having secured reinsurance. They might not fully understand the benefits of actually undertaking flood prevention work. They may simply end up accepting the reinsurance at the price they have to pay. There is a further factor that not everybody, even in a high-band property, is cash rich. It could be that, for some, the flood protection works that they would have to undertake would be too costly.

The benefits to the insurance industry of all four of these amendments are clear. It should reduce the level of claims it receives, and therefore the cost of that. There is a major gain for individual householders in that they will be encouraged—and able—to secure greater investment in flood prevention works to their properties. Therefore, I hope that the Minister understands, when he comes to reply, that these four probing amendments are all very positive in their approach in that they build on the excellent work that the Government have done with the insurance industry. However, let us work out ways in which we could do a little more to encourage flood prevention to be undertaken, and that greater resilience, as part of the Flood Re scheme.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, am very interested in this amendment, which has been drawn to the attention of people who live in my former constituency, in particular in the town of Keswick, which noble Lords may recall was the victim of substantial flooding a few years back.

I received a letter from Mrs Lynne Jones, the chair of Keswick Flood Action Group, one of the bodies that was established following the floods some years ago. I will read her letter to the House, because it comes from the front of the battle against flooding, from people on the ground who have to deal with this every day. She writes:

“My particular concern has always been that there is no encouragement or independent advice to reinstate properties in a more flood-resistant, resilient manner after a flood. It can be considered as betterment. Insurance companies have to reinstate properties with insulation which satisfies government legislation, whether there was insulation before or not. However, there is no requirement to consider solid waterproof floors as opposed to floorboards or a rewire from the first floor down, or the many other measures which can make flood recovery that bit less stressful, prolonged and expensive should the worst happen”.

In other words, people on the front line in this battle against flooding are now considering to what extent this scheme can be adapted in a way that incentivises investment not just in the solution of the immediate problem but in remedial measures which can affect claims in the future.

[Lord Krebs (CB)]

My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter. As will be apparent, the amendments that I will bring forward shortly are in the same vein. They reflect the points I made in a letter to the Secretary of State on 22 November 2013, in which I said:

“The Flood Re scheme offers the opportunity to strengthen incentives for the uptake of household flood protection measures but it is currently not designed to do this. The consequence is that Flood Re costs will be higher than they need to be, at the expense of householders funding the programme through the industry levy”.

I declare an interest as the chairman of the adaptation sub-committee of the Committee on Climate Change.

As this discussion has made clear, there is a real opportunity here and this is a helpful and supportive proposal. I will shortly describe my amendment, which would redesign Flood Re to help it, as has been said, to do two things: to provide cover for householders at risk and, at the same time, help to reduce those risks over the years ahead, so that when Flood Re comes to an end householders do not drop off a cliff after 25 years.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sheikh (Con)]

My Lords, at Second Reading I welcomed the Bill but outlined some concerns. I am extremely grateful to my noble friend the Minister both for the remarks he made during that debate and for the correspondence I have received since then. Indeed, he was able to alleviate a number of my concerns. However, there is one area where I still have a slight concern, which relates to the effect this legislation will have on small businesses.

At Second Reading I said that since small businesses will be ineligible for Flood Re, they will therefore be afforded less protection than in the statement of principles by which they are covered. In his correspondence to me, my noble friend the Minister said that it was the belief of the Government that there was not sufficient evidence to justify intervention in relation to small businesses. However, I believe that more should be done to protect our valued SMEs, many of which operate under tight budgets and may be unable to obtain affordable flood insurance. My noble friend the Minister has also said that it was his belief that SMEs were more able to protect themselves from flooding. Again, I point to the issue of cost here. Just as many SMEs struggle with the cost of insurance, they also struggle to afford to put in place measures to protect their businesses and livelihoods.

I welcome the Minister’s remarks that this issue will remain under review but I feel that this does not go far enough. If nothing further can be done to assist SMEs as part of the Bill, the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Moynihan could at least assist them in the future. In fact, it would benefit both the Government and SMEs because of the extra clarity it would bring. It would provide a mechanism to formally review the ability of businesses to take action to reduce flood risk and access flood insurance.

The conciliatory manner in which this Bill has progressed is most welcome and I would welcome anything further the Minister has to say on this issue. Again, I support the Bill and would like it to succeed, but suitable measures must be put in place in order that everybody gets the benefit of what we propose to do.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 160, in the name of my noble friends Lord Whitty and Lord Grantchester. I intend to speak on a number of amendments so I must declare an interest. I have a leasehold interest, with my wife, in a band G home on the Thames built on the flood plain. My flat is not threatened by flooding. My home has therefore never been evacuated and I have never made an insurance claim on a property I own. Nevertheless, I feel that I have an interest to declare while speaking on an issue that affects tens of thousands of home owners who similarly live in the vicinity of the Thames, many of whom are now being evacuated.

I start by congratulating the Government on introducing this scheme, which I understand was the subject of some very difficult negotiations with the insurance industry. I want to refer to a particular group of home owners, of which I am not one, who come under council tax band H. Council tax band H is pretty expensive property, as we know, and the flooding over the past few days has probably affected thousands of these properties up and down the River Thames between Chertsey and just south of Maidenhead, near Windsor. These home owners will be very worried about what is going to happen. They are excluded from this scheme. Not only do they have the problem of how to resolve their immediate difficulty of dealing with the flooding and the consequences for their homes, but they will also be worried about the longer term financial implications, in the event that their premiums are substantially increased—which they will be. I know that from my own experience in the Lake District, which I mentioned during my previous intervention. For most of my life, I lived there in the town of Keswick, which was subject to flooding. Many people there found it impossible to get insurance from insurance companies following the floods that took place some years ago.

There is going to be a real problem for these people. Many in the Thames Valley are not included in this scheme because their properties fall into band H. It is not that the Government need to interfere with this scheme. I understand its merits and it has been very sensitively negotiated. We very much support it. However, heads have got to be banged together to find a way of resolving the problem of many of these people who live in band H property.

People may ask what I am doing defending people living in band H properties from the Labour Benches. The reason is simple: many people who live in band H properties did not buy them as band H properties. They bought them when they were much cheaper, and when their incomes may well have been quite modest. Property price inflation in London and in the south of England has placed many people in this position. Even the way that the mansion tax is being construed may affect people who have quite small incomes. I am in favour of the mansion tax, but maybe the way that it is to be calibrated raises the same questions. People on low incomes who find themselves living in expensive properties—I am not one of them, as I said—have to be considered in these matters. I hope that the Government, even as late as this in the Bill, might on Third Reading at least make some statement as to what provision might be made for them, notwithstanding what the Bill provides on Flood Re.

[The Earl of Lytton]

My Lords, it is probably appropriate that I follow the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. I have to admit that I live in a band H property, but it is not in London and I am glad to say that it is built on a hill. My Amendments 160ZA and 161D are in this group. I shall be brief, because there is another larger issue that I want to address.

I tabled Amendment 160ZA to see whether I could flush out the rationale behind the exclusion of certain categories of property from FR, but also because there seemed to be a reluctance to consider both sides of the coin in terms of what is in and what is out of the safety net. What is in identifies and underlines what is out. It cannot be otherwise. The fact of exclusion does not mean that other insurers will not provide some cover, but it does, as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, said, have consequences. I have certainly received correspondence suggesting some very significant rises in free market premiums based not so much on the immediate severe risk but on that broader category of material risk that will be flagged up and will lie between those that have no risk whatsoever and those that are protected by the FR safety net. It is in the public interest that any scheme report under Amendment 160 should look beyond the narrow scope of FR inclusions and also look at wider exclusions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I recognise the high degree of interest in the policies that will be covered by our proposals, and those which will be out of scope. I hope that I can provide some clarity today on what is intended and the reasons for this.

The Flood Re proposition we are debating today was carefully designed to address specific, medium-term issues in the domestic insurance market. It was not, of course, designed in light of the immediate crisis that we are facing. I heard the passion and concern from your Lordships last week, yesterday and, indeed, today, about the specific, frustrating issues affecting the broader community, including small businesses and the farming industry. It is clearly a distressing time for many, and I know that they are in all our thoughts. Again, I pass on my thanks to the Environment Agency, the emergency services and the many volunteers, including the churches, who are working tirelessly to help.

However, it is not immediately apparent that there is an insurance angle to the current situation. Those who have insurance will be covered by their insurer. I am grateful, too, for the efforts of the insurance industry, which has been working hard in communities to ensure that damage is assessed and that claims are paid quickly. Until Flood Re is in place, insurers will continue to provide insurance cover. We have no understanding with the industry about expanding the scope of the scheme. I therefore ask that your Lordships forgive me if I combine my response to this debate to the specific proposition before your Lordships today.

I turn first to Amendment 155 of my noble friend Lord Moynihan, which would require the Secretary of State to publish a report on the ability of businesses in high flood-risk areas to secure flood insurance. I emphasise that decisions about the scope of Flood Re have been evidence-based. Compared to the household sector, there is not the same evidence of market failure in the commercial sector, where the insurance market is different. Bespoke policies are more routine—as my noble friend Lord Cathcart so eloquently explained—and they are already priced to risk. I listened with interest to what he, my noble friend Lord Ashton, and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, had to say.

Businesses, unlike households, have a de facto income stream to cover their costs and can offset the cost of their insurance for tax purposes, so they are different. Flood Re, I emphasise, is concerned with helping to protect those relatively few low-income households from high insurance premia. My noble friend Lady Parminter was, perhaps, sceptical of the suggestion of a lack of evidence. A government survey of more than 9,000 businesses in England estimated that fewer than 1% of businesses had experienced difficulty obtaining property insurance in the last year due to the risk of flooding, and that no businesses had been refused insurance cover due to the risk of flooding.

For these reasons, we do not think that Flood Re would be the right solution for this diverse sector. While there does not appear to be a systemic problem with small businesses being able to obtain flood insurance—and our public consultation endorsed our approach—I recognise that some in areas of high flood risk may face specific issues. As my honourable friend, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Water, Dan Rogerson, said in Committee in the other place, the Government and the Association of British Insurers have both committed to monitoring the market for flood insurance, including that for small businesses. If sufficient evidence emerges of a problem for businesses, then we have both agreed to look at possible solutions. This research will be published and I will be happy to place a copy of that report in the Library when it is published.

Amendments 160 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and Amendment 160ZA in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, seek to require the Secretary of State to prepare and publish reports on the numbers of properties which would be out of the scope of Flood Re, including properties built after 1 January 2009, band H properties, leasehold properties and private rented properties. It is very clear from his amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has clearly understood that any increase in the amount of policies ceded to Flood Re would need to be funded by others. Indeed, he explained that in his speech on the amendments. It is important that helping households at high risk does not lead to price rises for others.

My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Water set out indicative numbers and costs for including in Flood Re band H and equivalent properties and properties built after 1 January 2009 in a letter to the Committee examining this Bill in the other place. I would be happy to ensure that this letter is made available to noble Lords who have participated in this debate today. However, I would not want noble Lords to think that the impact on the levy is the only reason for post-January 2009 and band H or equivalent properties being ineligible. As I noted, we were very clear in designing Flood Re that we wanted to target the benefits where they were most needed, while not increasing the cost of living for those not at flood risk. That is the basis on which we made the decision that it would not be justified for band H and equivalent properties to be included.

According to the 2011 living costs and food survey published by the Office for National Statistics, 85% of those who live in band H properties and hold a combined insurance policy are in the top 30% of earners, with 48% in the top 10%. More significantly perhaps—and this is in response to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours—only 0.5% of such households are in the five lowest income deciles, which translates to roughly 45 properties in flood risk areas.

The 2009 cut-off date recognises that new housing developments should be located to avoid flood risk; or where development in a flood-risk area is necessary, they should be designed to be safe and appropriately resilient to flooding and not to increase flood risk elsewhere, in line with the national planning policies in place. This date therefore reflects the fact that homes built since then should already be insurable at affordable prices.

As noble Lords may know, when the agreement between government and the insurance industry, known as the statement of principles, was signed in 2008, it was agreed that there should be a cut-off date, which was set at 1 January 2009. That marker has been in operation for several years and has been maintained under Flood Re proposals. To be clear, there has been no change in policy. Therefore for the reasons that I have set out, we believe that the proposed exclusion of properties built after January 2009 and band H properties is fair and in line with the Government’s objective.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I just want to press the noble Lord on band H. As I said, I myself have no interest in it. However, in light of what has happened in the Thames Valley, is there not an argument for reviewing those figures that the Minister has just given to the House, particularly as regards the percentage of people on lower incomes who by chance happen to live in those rather expensive properties?

[Lord De Mauley]

I am of course quite happy to review the figures and to write to the noble Lord on that.

On Amendment 160ZA on reporting on leasehold and private rented sector policies, I see that we will also discuss the proposals in this regard on Flood Re later on today. However, before I come on to the specific subject of reporting, I remind noble Lords that the key issue in determining the scope of Flood Re is whether the policy for a particular property is treated as commercial or residential by the industry. Commercial policies are out of scope of Flood Re, which is designed to support households. We believe this approach is fair and practical, and it was supported in the public consultation. However, we recognise that the leasehold sector presents a more complex situation, where the contents policy is classified as domestic but the buildings policy could be classified as either commercial or domestic and could cover multiple dwellings.

I have listened to representatives of the property sector who have come forward with concerns about the impact of the proposed approach on the leasehold sector. They highlighted in particular that those in a smaller building might find it difficult to afford cover in the open market. The ABI has assured me that there is no evidence of a systemic problem with freeholders being able to obtain insurance for their leasehold properties, which I am sure noble Lords will agree is very welcome. However, given the strength of feeling on the matter, particularly in light of the ongoing extreme weather conditions, we need to take time to consider it in more detail, although without evidence of market failure it will be difficult to justify action. We will examine the evidence further with the ABI and hope to provide an update on Report. We will also continue to monitor this sector over time, as a part of the commercial insurance market.

I will focus briefly on the subject of the private rented sector. I take this opportunity to explain that it is proposed that buildings insurance cover for landlords would be out of scope for Flood Re, although contents cover for tenants would be eligible. At this stage I reiterate my declaration of an interest as owner of a property that flooded in 2007. The reason that landlords’ policies are out of scope is primarily because insurers classify all types of landlord insurance as commercial business, while Flood Re is designed for the domestic market. However, it is also important to recognise that the inclusion of landlords would effectively mean that people who do not own their own home could, through their contents premium, subsidise people who own several.

Flood Re targets support towards those least able to pay, through council tax bands. A landlord’s ability to pay cannot be judged against the council tax band of the property he lets. For example, the landlord of a council tax band A property could receive the maximum support if landlords were to be included, even if they were perfectly able to pay. Landlords already benefit from tax relief on the cost of their buildings insurance policy. They can offset many of their costs through taxable allowances which can significantly reduce their tax bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, in 2008 when serious flooding hit Northumberland, parts of Newcastle and several parts of the north, and 1,000 people had to be moved out of their homes in Morpeth, it was a major learning exercise for the statutory authorities; that is, the Environment Agency, Northumbrian Water, the local councils and the emergency services in particular. It was a major learning exercise because they had to respond properly and to work well together in the public interest.

In the years leading up to the 2010 Act, I wondered how much of a help that would be in defining the duty to co-operate to make sure that all the agencies involved in dealing with flood and flood risk would manage to work effectively together. In the main, that has happened, although in Somerset it has become unclear whether that duty has worked effectively, given the Environment Agency’s statement that it offered to dredge on the Somerset Levels if other partners joined it. I do not have all the details but I raise the point simply to demonstrate that the duty to co-operate between the agencies matters very much.

This amendment asks for a review within 24 months. Given the changes in flooding patterns around us, we need to be clearer about how the planning and risk management systems are working in practice. The amendment would enable a review of the effectiveness of the delivery of planning policy in achieving lower levels of flood risk for new developments by examining,

“(a) the system of planning policy delivery,

(b) the role and effectiveness in reducing flood risk of those organisations with a duty to co-operate … and

(c) the effectiveness of the delivery of the National Flood Management Strategy”.

It means that we have to confirm, and regularly reconfirm, the capacity and performance of all the organisations involved in reducing flood risk. These will include developers, local government officers and their planning committees, building contractors and building inspectors. We should also look at how national organisations, which have a tendency to be centralised, work effectively with local knowledge, and how that local knowledge is incorporated into the decision-making processes of the national agencies.

I understand that there have been instances where properties built since 2009 have flooded or caused other properties to flood. We need to know better than we do how big a problem this is, how often the flooding was due to flood waters exceeding the risk anticipated, and how often it was due to poor design or poor construction.

I was somewhat concerned to discover that the Environment Agency comments only on larger developments. It is understandable why that is the case, but in 2012-13—here I am quoting from DCLG statistics—local planning authorities received 455,500 planning applications and the Environment Agency provided responses to 30,251 of them; that is, 6.6% of the total. Obviously, most planning applications are small ones in which the Environment Agency need not have a role. However, we need to be clear whether the Environment Agency should have a formal, statutory consultation role in more planning applications than is currently the case. The current position is that the bulk of applications, including those for high surface water flood risk areas, are being dealt with entirely by planning committees and their officers, who follow national guidance. One assumes that they follow that guidance, but it also means that the cumulative impact of many small developments is not commented on and may not be taken into account. There is a further issue. At a time of reducing resources in local government, is everyone confident that all councils have the technical expertise to handle the complex drainage issues that arise? The Government need to be certain that they have all of the evidence they need, and therefore a review within 24 months should be undertaken.

I want to make a last point. I am concerned that we may be being too ambitious for sustainable urban drainage systems schemes. I understand from a press report I read a couple of days ago that 10% of the homes now being built are on flood plains. Of those, 1% to 2% are in high-risk areas. If the right preventive measures are put in place, which can include such schemes, it is not necessarily a problem that 10% of new homes are being built on flood plains. However, an important statement of the obvious is this: SUDS do not work on flood plains when there is substantial flooding. I guess we all know this, but I am concerned that there is a cumulative impact on planning permission for small developments; or, rather, I would like to be convinced that that is not the case. I would like to be certain as well that there is not an overdependence on SUDS schemes being seen as a solution to the problem when they may well not be.

This is a probing amendment, and I hope that the Minister will agree that it is important that, within 24 months, there should be a review of planning policy and flood risk management and delivery, and that two years is really the maximum period within which that should be undertaken, particularly in view of current circumstances. I beg to move.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I intend to use Amendment 155A as a peg for discussing what is described—in paragraph (c) of the new subsection that the amendment would insert into Clause 51—as,

“the effectiveness of the delivery of the National Flood Management Strategy”.

In particular, I want to highlight limitations on the current arrangement under that strategy and how those could be modified. I shall draw on a particular example by praying in aid a particular case.

In 1990, Thames Water proposed a reservoir in Oxfordshire. Its plan set out how the company could meet demand up to the year 2015 for water supply in the south-east of England. Its proposal was for a reservoir on land south-west of Abingdon in the Vale of White Horse. In 2008, some 18 years later, Thames Water held a consultation on its draft water resource management plan for meeting water demand up to 2032. The draft plan again included a proposal for the Abingdon reservoir. If it appears that I am speaking slightly obliquely to the amendment, I am sure that noble Lords will soon recognise the relationship between what I have to say and the amendment on the Marshalled List. In 2009, following a process of consultation, the management plan from Thames Water was amended and the reservoir reduced in size, and in 2010 there was a public inquiry. In March 2011, the Secretary of State, Caroline Spelman, announced her decision to remove the proposal for a reservoir at Abingdon from the management plan. The reasons were, primarily, that Thames Water could not prove a risk to current water supplies and, secondly, that insufficient consideration had been given to transfer and reuse schemes.

It was argued that water available in other parts of the United Kingdom could be transferred to the south-west of England, although when I was doing a little research on this last week I could not understand how it was impossible to prove that there was not a risk to the water supply in the south-west of England when over a number of years, certainly in the early 2000s, we were being told that reservoirs were empty almost throughout the United Kingdom. There were blocks on the use of water for gardening, and I understand that in some areas there was even talk of introducing standpipes for the water supply. Nevertheless, that was the decision taken at that time by the Secretary of State. I suspect that there was more nimby in the decision than a proper evaluation of water supply and demand. I understand that the next review is due in 2018-19.

Why is all this relevant? To answer that question, we have to move north to Cumbria, to Thirlmere. Thirlmere supplies water to Manchester. Thirlmere is a reservoir above the town of Keswick—where I have lived most of my life—which feeds water from the dam down the Greta river through Keswick, down through Bassenthwaite Lake, down the Derwent and on to Workington, which was the subject of substantial flooding some years ago. After that flood event some years ago, I was asked to set up a group in Keswick to hold discussions with the Environment Agency and United Utilities on what action could be taken to reduce the incidence of flooding in Keswick. Our group’s case was simple: Thirlmere could be used for flood alleviation purposes as well as for water storage. If we retained within Thirlmere sufficient unused water storage capacity, in times of predicted heavy rainfall we could use the reservoir to control the flow of water into the Greta through Keswick and substantially reduce the incidence of flooding in the Keswick area.

In the beginning, United Utilities resisted because it meant the release of its valuable asset—water. However, over time it adopted a more reasonable approach and agreed to reduce the level of the reservoir in the months of high rainfall, primarily in the autumn, winter and early spring. We set target water levels for each month in the meters below the spillover at the head of the reservoir and the dam head. When the reservoir is too full, water is released. Many people in the town believe it has served the town well and avoided substantial flooding over recent years, despite the fact that on occasions they have had trouble releasing sufficient water due to mechanical release valve difficulties.

Let us return to Abingdon and what has happened over the past week in the Thames Valley. I refer again to the interest I declared earlier. Why can we not have a similar arrangement for Abingdon? Why can we not bring back the proposal for a reservoir on the Abingdon site with a dual purpose? The first would be water storage to meet increased demand in the south, and with the proposed development of new towns in the south that is part of the Government’s housing strategy, there will be increased demand—indeed, at the moment demand in drought periods is not being sufficiently met. Secondly, the reservoir could be used for flood alleviation purposes, with target storage levels providing for controlled releases into the River Thames.

Let us go back to the Thames Valley. The communities that have suffered over the past week know that there is no way of resolving their problem in the long term. You cannot build defences along the Thames on the scale necessary to protect the towns and villages—Wraysbury, Datchet, Chertsey, Staines, Sunbury and all those towns; it is impossible. We have to find a solution further up the system. I have raised this in relation to this amendment because I believe that the solution is to create large areas that can be pooled and used for flood alleviation in the future.

It seems to me that to secure that objective, the law needs to be reviewed. We need to strengthen the hand of those who wish to use reservoirs in this way. As I understand the current statute, there is no statutory requirement—a power available to the Environment Agency or to the Government—placed on water companies to use their assets in the way that I suggest. I hope that what I am suggesting today is followed up in the communities that have been affected over the past week by this vast, insuperable problem of flooding, because they need to look long-term as to what the solution is, and the solution is not in flood defences. The solution is upstream. I hope that they follow up my suggestions. In Abingdon there will no doubt be some difficulty over the proposal, but we all have to stand together to find ways to resolve the problem. Unless it is dealt with soon, it will have calamitous implications for the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords for their amendments. We are certainly supportive of their intentions in tabling them. The provision of information to households at risk of flooding is vital for managing the costs and impacts of flooding. We believe that it is essential that households benefiting from Flood Re should know about Flood Re and actions that they could take, for example, to reduce flood risk, allowing them to plan for the future. This was a key issue in the public consultation on flood insurance; some of the issues in these amendments echo some of the issues raised in earlier groups, which my noble friend Lord De Mauley has addressed.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, rightly emphasised transparency; we certainly agree with that. As my noble friend Lord De Mauley has just pointed out, the Government have agreed with the Association of British Insurers the principle that insurers will be required to provide information to customers, both when a property is ceded to Flood Re and at the point of a claim, highlighting their flood risk. We are also keen to ensure that Flood Re plays its part in managing the transition to risk-reflective pricing, which we discussed earlier. We are continuing to develop with the ABI proposals in this area. We strongly believe that it is equally important that households outside Flood Re are aware of their flood risk, and the Government are committed to making this information available to the public. That is why we already have systems in place, through the Environment Agency and its devolved equivalents, to provide this information.

In England, the Environment Agency already makes comprehensive and searchable flood risk data available on its website. This has enabled people to check their flood risk from rivers and the sea and take action to prepare for flooding. The agency provides the same information for insurers to use. In addition, last December, the Environment Agency published surface water maps for all areas of England on its website and will produce a combined map, showing all sources of flooding, by December 2015. This work further helps improve public understanding of their flood risk and I hope noble Lords will be further reassured by that. While this places the onus on home owners to seek the information themselves, it provides clear information to households, is well established and is actively promoted by the agency.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, raised the point about people buying properties. Clearly, anybody purchasing a property should check their flood risk by commissioning property surveys and searches or, alternatively, information on surface water risk that has been available in recent years on request from lead local flood authorities. If they conduct those kinds of searches and surveys, then this kind of information should emerge. Clearly, if, having discovered the flood risk, they discuss it with whomever they are buying their property from, the issue of Flood Re would no doubt enter their discussion.

Since June, we have been working with the insurance industry to go even further to improve the data available on flood risk. We have now agreed that the Environment Agency, and its devolved counterparts, will be able to access Flood Re’s data on where the highest-risk households are. This will help the Environment Agency to improve its own mapping of flood risk and will mean that our record levels of flood investment can be targeted at those areas most at risk.

To add to what I have said to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, I also point out that the seller is required to fill in a property information form—he will be aware of that—as part of the conveyancing process. This form asks questions about the flood risk history of the property, and if the seller provided misleading information there would be potential for the buyer to seek damages.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Is it not true that under the process to which the Minister refers, a purchaser would not know until lawyers had been involved and were beginning the exchange of documents? My noble friend’s amendment would mean that the buyer would have access to that information in advance. Is that not the distinction or do I have that wrong?

[Baroness Northover]

The noble Lord will know that a buyer can access the Environment Agency’s maps and see for themselves. When buyers are seeking to buy in a particular area, they usually check out all sorts of aspects: for example, where the schools are and public transport is. It will increasingly become a concern of people seeking to buy a property, given what has happened in recent weeks, to have a look at what the potential flood risk might be. They have access to those maps before they even start down the road of any potential purchase.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Is it possible that some property might be excluded? It might not necessarily show whether a property was actually subject to Flood Re.

[Baroness Northover]

Does the noble Lord mean a band H property? I would have thought that it would be fairly obvious if it were a band H property. I am happy to write with any further clarification if that would assist him.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Yes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Cathcart]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 160A. I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, but I shall speak to the amendment as it is written. The Flood Re scheme should be eligible for all houses built and occupied before its introduction.

We live in a blame society. Even now, the media are trying to pin the blame for the current flooding on someone. Is the worst rainfall for 200 or 300 years the fault of the Government, the Environment Agency or local government? It must be somebody’s fault.

With Amendment 160A, we are debating whether houses built after 1 January 2009 should be included in the Flood Re scheme. As was said earlier, PPS25 has made it quite clear that development should not take place in flood risk areas, and yet we all know that it still goes on. One has to ask why. Who is responsible for the houses built on flood risk areas when the rules are quite clear? Everyone is trying to pass the blame on to someone else—“It’s not my fault, guv”. Who is at fault? Is it the Government for not ensuring stricter adherence to PPS25? Is it the Environment Agency? That may be the case. Although 97% of applications that it objects to are refused, it looks at only 6.6% of the 450,000 applications, which is quite clearly not enough.

Is it the fault of local government planners? That is probably the case. One has to ask why they continue to pass applications on flood risk areas contrary to PPS25. Is it the fault of the owner for buying a home built after 1 January 2009 on a flood risk area? It probably is. Caveat emptor, or let the buyer beware: he should have known. If he did not, is it the fault of his conveyance lawyer when carrying out the searches? It raises the question of whether lawyers should be required, as a matter of course, to inform buyers if the house is on a flood risk area and, in this case, when it was built.

One can lay the blame on homes being built on flood-prone areas on any or all of the above but, as sure as eggs are eggs, it is not the fault of the insurance industry. Why should insurers pick up the tab? They have been quite clear on this. Indeed, they are the only ones who have drawn a line by saying that, if a home is built in a flood risk zone after 1 January 2009, under the statement of principles, flood cover will not be available and the property will not be eligible for the Flood Re scheme. Underwriters were quite clear that they did not want to encourage unwise and irresponsible development. Why should underwriters or contributors to the scheme pay for other people’s stupidity? The Government must decide whether PPS25 is to be adhered to or not.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, there is an element of confusion both outside and inside this House as to where the words which define the exclusion of leaseholders are to be found. I understand that Defra put out a notice in which it excluded leaseholders, but can the Minister tell us where this provision is made? The public are confused. The assumption when anyone reads this Bill that freeholders are included will be interpreted by flat-owners who have purchased their freehold but manage their blocks through leasehold companies—companies which have been established to manage the freehold, owned by the residents who have 999-year leases—to mean that they are also included. They will assume that because they are freeholders they are included. My understanding from my reading, although, as I say, I have not found the authoritative piece of literature, is that they are not included. In other words, people out there who believe they are included—freeholders of blocks of flats; not corporate interests but individual share-of-freehold owners—will think that they are included when they are not. That needs to be sorted out.

I cannot understand why they are excluded. Indeed, I would argue that they are probably less of a risk to insurance companies, even though they may well live in buildings on flood plains, because very often you find blocks of flats where no one is living on the bottom floor at all and the first flat in the block is on the first floor, above the area at risk of being flooded. If I am correct in what I am saying, will the Minister tell us why share-of-freehold owners in blocks of flats are being excluded when, in fact, they are freeholders and when, as I say, people reading the Bill will presume that they are included?

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, I think my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours is going back to a point that I raised earlier—namely, that the Flood Re parts of the Bill may have been produced relatively late in the Commons. However, the dividing line between what is included in terms of property and what is not is not as clear as it should be. My noble friend has just identified a group for whom this issue is particularly confusing, but in any case the distinction is not in the text of the Bill. As I said earlier, there is slight confusion about the various bits of paper that Defra has produced on this matter, so we need clarity one way or the other as to which groups are included and which are not. We have heard various bits of clarification from the Minister today. I think that most of those should end up in the Bill before we finalise it and I look to the Government to come forward with amendments on Report or at Third Reading to make sure that the position is clear.

I am afraid that I confused the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, in this group with an amendment in an earlier group and commented on it earlier. However, whereas I have great sympathy with a lot of the other excluded groups, I have virtually none with those who built on and developed land in high-risk areas after 2009 because it was already clear from the previous agreement between the Government and the ABI that new insurance would not be given for those developments. Like the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, I do not think we should give those people leeway retrospectively. If we shift the deadline now, somebody will argue for a deadline at a later stage to allow yet more development in inappropriate places, and that will skew the insurance figures and the whole calculation behind Flood Re. Therefore, I do not support the noble Lord on this occasion.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, my noble friend’s Amendment 160A seeks to make all houses built and occupied before its introduction eligible for Flood Re. This amendment would move the cut-off date for inclusion of properties in the scheme to the start of Flood Re, rather than from 2009, and would also bring band H households in scope of the scheme.

I apologise to noble Lords as I suspect that I may be repeating what I said earlier today and, indeed, we may repeat it yet again later. First, I reiterate why we intend that properties built before 1 January 2009 and those in council tax band H and the equivalents would not be eligible for the scheme. However, before I do that, I shall respond to my noble friend Lord Shipley and a number of other noble Lords who asked what state the property must have been in at 1 January 2009 in order to qualify. It must have been in possession of a council tax band, which would imply that it was habitable at that date. I hope that is helpful.

The 2009 cut-off date recognises that new housing development should be located to avoid flood risk, or where development in a flood risk area is necessary, it should be designed to be safe, appropriately resilient to flooding and not increase flood risk elsewhere, in line with the national planning policies in place. This date therefore reflects the fact that homes built since 2009 should already be insurable at affordable prices. As the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said, that marker has been in operation for several years, and it has been maintained under the Flood Re proposals.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked about surface water mapping. The new mapping has shown that the total number of properties affected by surface water flooding is lower than previously thought.

Band H properties are not included in the scheme because, as I explained in some detail earlier today, Flood Re is designed to target support to those who need it most.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, raised the issue of leasehold properties. As we have discussed, commercial policies are out of scope of Flood Re, which is designed to support households. We believe that this approach is fair and practical, and it was supported in the public consultation. However, the leasehold sector presents a more complex situation, where the contents policy is classified as domestic, but a buildings policy could be classified as either commercial or domestic and could cover multiple dwellings. As I said, I recognise the strength of feeling on this issue, particularly in light of the ongoing extreme weather conditions, and I feel we need to take time to consider it in more detail, although, without evidence of market failure, it would be difficult to justify action. However, we will examine the evidence further with the ABI and I hope to provide an update on Report.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Will the Minister comment on the issue of share of freehold?

[Lord De Mauley]

If I may, I will include that in that consideration. I hope that my explanations have provided some helpful reassurance. I am happy to ask my officials to work with the ABI to set out the proposed scope of Flood Re in more detail before Report, as that is something noble Lords have asked for. On that basis, I ask my noble friend to withdraw the amendment.

Thames Tideway Tunnel

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Wednesday 24th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, while I agree with my noble friend on many things, I do not agree with him on that. After years of work by Governments of both hues, we do not consider that there is a viable, cheaper solution that would simultaneously address the current sewer overflow problems relatively swiftly for the foreseeable future and deliver value for money.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Is not the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, the question being asked by the whole of the British environmental movement, which says that this was the wrong solution and that sustainable developments were possible as an alternative? Why are we wasting £4 billion on this project when there was another solution?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, over the past decade studies have looked at options which include green infrastructure solutions such as sustainable drainage systems. The purpose of the Thames Tunnel Evidence Assessment, published by my department in 2012, was to ensure that due consideration had been given to the full range of evidence available on all the proposed solutions to address sewage in the Thames and to provide an assessment of the nature of that evidence.

Flooding: Insurance

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Wednesday 26th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, my noble friend is unique among your Lordships in that he seems to have both ears to the ground at the same time. As I said, we are at an advanced stage in discussions with the insurance industry about the future of flood insurance. We aim to announce future measures shortly to ensure that households can continue to access affordable flood insurance.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, why should not all policyholders carry the risk? It would mean a very marginal difference in premiums.

[Lord De Mauley]

Yes, my Lords. We are trying to arrange a system where those at the highest risk who have difficulty affording the insurance effectively have a continued cross-subsidy from wider policyholders. It is a very complicated negotiation, as I think that the noble Lord is effectively pointing out, and we have a lot of interests to keep in mind here.

Insurance: Flood Risk Areas

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I agree with that. To answer my noble friend’s question and to add to my answer to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, I should say that we have regular ministerial meetings with Ministers from the devolved Administrations—in fact, I attended one this week—and this subject regularly comes up.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, has the Minister himself been directly involved in these negotiations? If he has, does he know what the obstacle is? What is the problem? What is holding them up?

[Lord De Mauley]

I have to admit to the noble Lord that this is not in my policy area, so I have not. I attend the regular ministerial meetings so I know a certain amount about what is going on. In negotiations, it is very important that the intricate details are kept confidential, and I hope that the noble Lord will understand that, but, as I say, I am confident that we are working towards a solution.

Water: National Grid

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Wednesday 28th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, as part of the Government’s drought summit, water companies are committed to reducing water losses and increasing leakage detection. It is important to say that leakage cannot be eliminated altogether. Even new pipes can leak, but water companies have leakage targets to move them to a sustainable, economic level of leakage. Leakage has fallen by nearly 40 per cent since the mid-1990s and is expected to fall by a further 3 per cent in the next three years.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, what progress is being made on the proposal to build a new large reservoir in the Abingdon area—I think that it is in Oxfordshire?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I know nothing of that proposal so I am not in a position to answer the noble Lord’s question. Reservoir capacity is important, of course, but even more important is the opportunity to connect up existing river resources and water resources so that they are available across water companies. That is the point that I wanted to make in response to my noble friend’s Question.