Welfare Reform and Work Bill
Lord Curry of Kirkharle Excerpts(8 years, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Manzoor (LD)
My Lords, I shall speak to my Amendment 104, which is fairly self-explanatory. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, who is not in his place, for adding his name to it. It relates to loans for mortgage interest.
As we have heard, from April 2018, proposals set out in Clause 16 will mean that owner occupiers in receipt of income support will receive the offer of a loan secured on their property to help them to meet their mortgage interest payments, rather than a benefit, should they need it, to stay in their home. If there is insufficient equity to repay all the loan and interest, any remaining debt will be written off.
Age UK is right to say that we need to understand more about the people who will be affected and their likely response to the new proposals. For example, will it be possible to place a charge on all types of property, including leasehold property, those in shared ownership and sheltered housing? How will the system work if people have other loans secured on the property or have already taken out an equity release plan?
The Government have already said that they will make regulations about advice to claimants before claimants take a loan. That is welcome, but can the Minister clarify who will provide the advice and who will pay for it? Will it be free to claimants, and will it be independent and impartial, with no conflicts of interest—as the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, mentioned? How will the Government ensure that they do not create perverse incentives for the provider? Will the Minister also confirm that the financial advice given to claimants will be independent of the lender?
However, the purpose of Amendment 104 is to determine at what point any outstanding loan or mortgage interest, as proposed in the Bill, is paid off. I understand that the loan will be repaid when the property is eventually sold, rather than having to be paid off when the person receiving the loan gets back into work. However, there may be a series of other debts to be paid on the house when it is sold, the most obvious being the mortgage. It is therefore important to understand in what order creditors line up—i.e., who gets paid first, second, third, et cetera—and where the new mortgage interest loans sit in that queue.
My amendment focuses specifically on where it sits in relation to any outstanding payments for social care that may need to be paid. Under the Care Act—although not yet brought into force—a person can defer payment of their social care bills to the local authority during their lifetime, with the balance being paid off through their estate after their death, i.e., primarily through the sale of their home. My amendment seeks to clarify whether loans for mortgage interest or the deferred payments are paid back first. We on these Benches strongly believe that it should be the deferred payments, as this is money for the local authority which is vital to funding future social care needs. Will that be the case?
The Government also need to show that they are committed to helping people to meet the costs of social care by not delaying the implementation of the Care Act, a Lib Dem achievement in government. My amendment states:
“The regulations must provide that where—
(a) repayment of the loan is to be made based on the proceeds of sale of the person’s home, and
(b) the person has an outstanding deferred payment agreement under section 34 of the Care Act 2014 (deferred payment agreements and loans),
the repayment of the loan may not be settled until any amounts payable to the local authority under the deferred payment agreement have been settled”.
Otherwise, of course, the money just ends up with the Treasury, with no recourse for local authorities to recoup any moneys due to them for other people who might need help and support with social care costs in the future.
Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 104A. I very much support the intentions of this Bill, but, of course, there are inevitably special cases that would be adversely affected by a change of this magnitude. The Government have been very clear in their intentions for this change, and I commend them for that. What I seek to amend, however, is not the principle of the clause, but its application. More specifically, I seek to amend this clause so that those who are in receipt of disability living allowance, or carer’s allowance and income support, are exempt from this change so that they can continue to receive support for mortgage interest as a benefit, not as a loan.
This clause was initially brought to my attention by a friend who attends my church. This man purchased a house in 2006 and was financially stable and secure. However, two years into his mortgage, he was diagnosed with a detached retina, which rendered him blind. As a consequence, he has had to cease working. He has been entitled to support for mortgage interest, due to being in receipt of disability living allowance, and carer’s allowance, as his wife is now his carer. With the help of SMI, his mortgage would have reached completion in 2030. At this point, he planned to downsize, using the extra equity to pay off other loans accrued since he was diagnosed as blind to equip his house as a result of his disability. However, the implications of the proposed change from interest support to a loan mean that 12 years’ worth of interest and a small capital contribution will need to be repaid. If interest rates stay as they are for the whole period, my friend, on top of his mortgage, will have to pay the Government back £63,000, the sum contributed by SMI as a loan, and £15,000 for the 5% interest on the interest owed each year. As I said earlier, I am in support of the clause in principle, but strongly urge the Government to reassess and reconsider applying the changes to those who are on disability living allowance.
My friend will be for ever incapable of working, and so would never be able to repay the loan. It is not right that such a burden should be placed on him and others like him—he is not unique—who receive disability living allowance. This change could potentially result in my friend losing his house and being forced to move into government housing, which would ultimately cost the taxpayer much more. Have the Government fully assessed the long-term implications of this? Surely, a successful policy is not one that saves money in one area, only for more to be spent elsewhere.
In conclusion, I repeat that I support the aims of Clause 16, but feel that it is entirely inappropriate for those on disability allowance to be treated in the same way as those on jobseeker’s allowance. The assumption is that those on jobseeker’s allowance will eventually get a job and be able to pay their mortgage in full themselves and also to pay back the loan. Those on disability allowance, however, might never be able to pay it back if they are for ever prevented from working. On these grounds, I urge the Government to reconsider the wording of Clause 16 and allow those on disability allowance or carer’s allowance to be exempt from the changes.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lords, I listened to most of the debate this evening and have heard the arguments on most of the amendments. Without any discourtesy to those who have proposed these amendments, it seems to me that the case for these are less compelling than the case for some of the amendments that were discussed earlier. There is one fundamental reason for this: what this clause does is basically to convert what is at the moment a grant into a loan. Of itself, it does not affect the quantum of support from taxpayer to recipient: it simply converts the terms. Therefore, to my mind, this is a much less painful way of reducing public expenditure than some of the other measures of the Bill that directly affect the quantum of support from taxpayer to beneficiary. Perhaps it is for that reason that the Opposition’s reasoned amendment to the Bill in the other place said:
“That this House, whilst affirming its belief that … a benefits cap and loans for mortgage interest support are necessary changes to the welfare system”.—[Official Report, Commons, 20/07/15; col. 1264.],
specifically excluding this bit of the Bill from their general reservations. Any measure that reduces the quantum of saving from this particular clause just puts more pressure on some of the other measures in the Bill which directly affect the support that a beneficiary might get.
Turning to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, in a sense she gave the case away by conceding that 39 weeks was the period for which people had to wait for roughly 10 years under the last Labour Government. If 39 weeks was appropriate when there was not the pressure that we have on public expenditure today, then it is certainly appropriate when we are trying to make necessary savings.
Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill
Lord Curry of Kirkharle Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Deben
We are in great danger of thinking about only this subject. Teachers constantly have to face this issue. I remember going to a Protestant school and being taught about transubstantiation. The teacher had a duty to explain that honestly and straightforwardly. He also had a duty to explain what he himself thought about it. I did not agree with what he thought about it. On the other hand, I was extremely well informed by how he explained it. That is what teachers are doing constantly, in all sorts of areas. That is all that is being asked.
It is right that the teacher should explain what the law is. It is right that the teacher should have to explain the arguments that led to the law being as it is. It is also perfectly reasonable—and 13 year-olds would certainly demand it—for the pupils to say, “Well what do you think about it?”. It is perfectly right for the teacher to say what he or she thinks about it, but with the proper politeness and courtesy that teaching implies.
We are making a great deal too much of this because this is the sort of thing that all teachers face all the time. The law is not being changed to make a special arrangement for this, because it is already covered. I really do not think that we should get hung up about this, because it will have to be dealt with immediately we change the law, whatever we do. That is what teachers are there for: to try to make people understand that this is what the law is and that there are arguments. Let us get the class to argue and discuss the issues. The only people who do not want that are the people who want teachers to promote one side or the other. Promotion of things does not have much place in the classroom.
Lord Curry of Kirkharle
My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Dear. Deep concerns were expressed at Second Reading on this issue. We all have huge respect for the role of teachers and admiration for what they do, but many are deeply concerned about the impact of the Bill. Indeed, in the Government's response to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, the door was left partially open in that the Government said that they would continue to engage with religious organisations and others to explore whether there was a case for further clarification in this area. I suggest that there is a case for further clarification. Rather than just rejecting this amendment, the Government ought to consider how they can respond to give greater clarity on the subject.
Lord Framlingham
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Deben, divided the issue into two—that teachers will have to explain the situation as it is and then, if asked, give their opinion. I am afraid that if we are not careful in this House, we are in grave danger of pretending things that will not happen. Anyone who has stood in front of a class knows that children are very cute. They want to know the truth and you have to be very honest. Teachers are teaching pupils about the ordinary, normal married state and same-sex marriage at the same time in as honest and fair a way as they possibly can. Then the pupils who are listening very carefully say, “But what do you really think Miss?” or “What do you really think about it Sir?” As the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said, teachers then have to give their opinions. If a teacher who does not believe in same-sex marriage and who has explained the situation factually is then forced into a corner and says, “I think same-sex marriage is an awful idea. I am sad that it ever happened and it is dreadful that it has gone through”, what then happens to that teacher?
Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill
Lord Curry of Kirkharle Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
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““recognised” means recognised according to the ordinary customs and usage of the organisation and in the event of a dispute between the members over which person or persons are recognised for the purpose of giving consent for the purposes of this section, the Secretary of State shall consult all members of the relevant religious organisation to determine which person or persons are recognised, and this shall include power to order a ballot of members in which a quorum of 66 per cent shall be required and recognition shall be determined by a majority vote;
“members” means those whose names have appeared on a formal membership roll kept by the relevant religious organisation for a period of at least 12 months prior to written consent being given, and if no such roll is kept, then the members shall be deemed to be those who have attended worship at the place of worship for a majority of services of worship during the 12 months prior to written consent being given.”
Lord Curry of Kirkharle
My Lords, I am deeply concerned about the potentially divisive nature of this Bill. Mention was made a number of times at Second Reading and has been made again in the two days when we have been considering amendments of the serious potential for unintended consequences. We need to consider this very carefully indeed. There is a huge risk that faith communities and church congregations find themselves in dispute as a consequence of this Bill where no dispute existed previously.
Given the strong differences of views on same-sex marriage, there is enormous scope for minority elements within congregations to seek to register premises for same-sex weddings against the wishes of their denomination or majority. The vague drafting of this clause leaves too much to chance. Under the Bill as drafted, it is not clear what “recognised” actually means. What does it mean for members of a religious organisation to recognise an authority that is competent to give consent on this issue? Who are the members of a religious organisation? It is impossible to catalogue the variety of ways in which churches and religious bodies identify their membership. What mechanisms are local authorities and courts to use in attempting to address this question?
The governance arrangements that exist within different churches can be quite complex and sometimes unclear. Some churches may require a member to have fulfilled a formal process. Some will use written lists. Others will use an electoral roll. Even these lists might not reflect the number of people in attendance at any meeting. Some churches are structured in such a way that it is considered best not to have a formal system of membership. Church structures are very complicated. It is possible for the situation to become confusing, with claim and counterclaim being made about who possesses authority to speak for the organisation in binding its membership to conducting same-sex marriages.
There will be huge pressure on churches which do not want to opt in. Local authorities may be strong advocates of same-sex marriage and may happily take the consent of a liberal faction as being binding on the whole organisation. It is necessary to set out clear statutory principles to handle inevitable disputes. Local authorities must hold the tools to assess or reject applications to register a building for same-sex marriages, but the local registry office that receives the application has no legal basis on which to determine an application.
It could be very easy to register the church for same-sex marriages, just by the proprietor making an application accompanied by something that seems to show consent. Consent may be given by a wing, a faction, a sub-committee of a denomination, but that does not mean they are representative or legally and morally competent to give consent. It is not clear what constitutes evidence of consent? Under the Bill, a letter is sufficient, but given the internal complexities involved, have the Government considered any additional requirements to verify the issue of consent? Is there any guidance on the consequences of the local authority wrongly approving an application?
It is unrealistic to expect that all local authorities will have a grasp of the internal politics and structures of every religious body. Without a clear framework they will not have the ability to ascertain who exercises the proper legal responsibility for such decisions within each of a wide range of churches with their innumerable variations of governance, locations, interests, hierarchies and systems.
The purpose of Amendment 20 is to define “recognised” and “members” and the consent that would apply to issues on registering buildings, filling gaps in the Bill and reducing the potential for problems down the line. It promotes consistency across the boundaries of different local authorities. It provides mechanisms for achieving clarity when there are opposing claims about who is legally able to speak on behalf of a particular church or faith organisation.
The amendment makes it clearer whether applications are in line with the respective church’s typical decision-making methods. Because of the sensitivities involved, in the event of an unresolved dispute, Amendment 20 would require the Secretary of State to become involved and therefore establish a uniform approach across central and local government. The Government have created the problem by their drafting, so they should take ultimate responsibility for solving individual problems that may arise.
If it is evident that proper processes have been ignored or deliberately manipulated, the Secretary of State should have the power to order a ballot of church members, as set out under the amendment. In such a ballot, a majority vote of two-thirds would be required to authorise the religious body to either opt in or opt out of the same-sex marriage registration system. This, of course, may come with its own complications, which is why it is so crucial to attempt to define in statute what constitutes membership.
Two words have been repeated again and again in debate on the Bill: “divisive” and “discriminatory”. It is possible that, despite reassurances, if the Bill is introduced, it will create more discrimination than it seeks to solve and cause divisions where none existed before. The amendment proposed by the Minister—Amendment 21—is helpful but it needs to go further. I hope the Minister will give this amendment very serious consideration.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon
My Lords, I rise to speak in favour of Amendment 22, which is in my name. Very detailed consideration has been given to the impact of this legislation on the Christian and Jewish religions. However, no consideration whatever has been given to the difficulties that may arise for other faiths. Can the Minister enlighten the Committee as to why members of other faiths, each more numerous than the Jews, are being treated as if they did not exist? Was this omission inadvertent or was it thought that newer faiths in this country were less important? Either way, the less than favourable treatment of other faiths, including my own, appears to contravene both the Equality Act and human rights legislation. It seems that some minorities are more equal than others.
The substance of my amendment is best understood through a little story, which is true. An opinion pollster knocked on the door of a house in Birmingham and asked, “Do you belong to an organised religion?”. A man in a turban responded, “No, I’m a Sikh”. Sikhs do not easily submit to authority. The day-to-day management of each gurdwara is by democratically elected committees. There is no hierarchy of authority in the Sikh community other than the democratically elected Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee in Amritsar, which, after years of deliberation in the middle of the last century, produced what we call the Rehat Maryada—the Sikh code of conduct, which gives definitive and universally accepted guidance on Sikh marriage, defined as the union of a man with a woman.
I head the Network of Sikh Organisations UK—the NSO—which is the largest umbrella body of Sikhs in the UK, with over 130 affiliated members. Its purpose is to facilitate co-operation between gurdwaras in promoting Sikh values and living true to Sikh teachings. However, neither it nor any other organisation in the UK has any authority to vary the Sikh Rehat Maryada. Amendment 22 is necessary to make this position absolutely clear to the relevant authorities.
Lord Curry of Kirkharle
My Lords, I reinforce that. The Bill itself, as I said in my comments and has been said numerous times, is divisive. Some churches with no clearly defined governing body—and I know many that fall into that category—will find it exceedingly difficult if a minority decides to pursue this. It has the potential to divide church congregations and communities, and that is deeply regrettable. I shall withdraw the amendment, but I would like the Minister to reflect on this. Faith communities need some way of appealing if they believe that a position is being taken against their best interests. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill
Lord Curry of Kirkharle Excerpts(11 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Deben
My Lords, I support the tenor of these amendments and wish to say how strongly I support this part of the Bill. I have no direct interest in it because the companies with which I am associated do not tend to go across the county border in quite the way in which it might affect them. However, if I do have an interest I will declare it.
The issue I want to raise is that this has been a very successful extension of a system that was in operation even before the previous Government. Other examples included how the supermarkets were able to have a lead council that would help them to get the basis upon which they would apply elsewhere, so this has been a growing piece of work. I was pleased to hear the noble Lord put forward his support for this system because it really makes a difference and is not a way of avoiding anything. It is merely a way of ensuring that there is a continuity and consistency in the implementation of law. It also enables companies that want to do the right thing to do it and then not find that they are asked to do something different somewhere else in the country. I think all of us, right across the board, have found embarrassing situations in which in one place you are asked to do the opposite of what you have been asked to do next door in a particular kitchen or over a particular kind of presentation.
This is an extremely important change, which was amplified by the previous Government and is being amplified here. I, too, would like to hear from the Minister whether this is the beginning of a continuous process and whether it will be much deeper than it is in the Bill. Can we hope that more and more areas will be covered, not in a way that reduces the efficacy of regulation but one which increases its efficiency? It is not that I want people to get away with anything; I just want people to know where they are, wherever they are. This amendment points to that and I hope that the Minister will be able to help us see this as a continuing and growing trend in government regulation.
Lord Curry of Kirkharle
My Lords, I declare an interest in that I chair the Better Regulation Executive, which was very much part of recommending these changes. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, recognises the value of the scheme and I pay tribute to the previous Government for having introduced it because it is a valuable tool and has reduced significantly the burden on businesses that have participated in it. My concern about the proposed amendment is the definition of “to a material extent”. It will create a lot of debate and potential confusion around how one defines “material extent”. The trade associations that have been consulted and would be keen to participate in this scheme have members who all have a common interest. I see this as providing a real opportunity to take a significant regulatory burden away from businesses that are members of a trade association and would wish to participate in such a scheme, so I have a problem with Amendment 28ZDA.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger of Leckie)
My Lords, before I turn to these amendments I would just like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for his very kind and extensive words of welcome at the previous Sitting of Committee. I look forward to a continuing and fruitful dialogue with the noble Lord. As he said himself, we sing in the Parliament choir together, although I hazard a guess that his tunefulness is somewhat superior to my own. I look forward to working closely with him and other noble Lords over the coming weeks on this Bill. I also confirm that I intend to propose meetings on the various matters where it was suggested this would be helpful at earlier stages of the Committee.
Turning to this group of amendments, I thank the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Stevenson, for their amendments to Clause 59 concerning eligibility for the primary authority scheme, which I shall respond to in turn. This scheme was of course introduced by the previous Government, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, mentioned, and has been much welcomed.
Clause 59 broadens the criteria for businesses to be eligible for the primary authority scheme. It will mean in practice that many small businesses that operate in only one local authority area will be able to join, together with similar businesses which share an approach to compliance. I hope that I can answer the question from the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, about what that means.
The Government see a shared approach to compliance as one that a business consistently follows in order to fulfil its regulatory obligations. Such an approach should result from guidance or procedures issued from a single point, such as a head office or a trade association. This will mean that franchises of the same brand or members of the same trade association, for example, could qualify. They will be able to enjoy the valuable assurance that a primary authority partnership can bring.
The new eligibility criteria have been intentionally drafted broadly. This is to ensure that as many small businesses as possible can benefit from reduced regulatory burdens. A business will be able to join the scheme only if the Secretary of State is satisfied that the business meets the eligibility criteria, and statutory guidance will provide more detail about the matters likely to be taken into account in assessing eligibility under the new criteria.
It is intended that further detail as to the circumstances likely to constitute a shared approach to compliance will be included in statutory guidance. Adding further detail to the drafting of the clause could inadvertently restrict participation in the scheme for the very businesses that this clause is attempting to help.
Of course, having a broad definition of a shared approach to compliance in the legislation means that a wide variety of groups of businesses could qualify for the scheme and the nature of the resulting partnership will rightly need to vary. For example, where a trade association acts purely to distribute information to its members, the primary authority partnership will be very different from one which involves a trade association that provides a fully audited accreditation scheme for its members.
This type of detail will also be given in the statutory guidance and the statutory mechanism for scrutiny of proposed new partnerships by the Secretary of State provides assurance that shared approaches to compliance will be handled appropriately.
Amendment 28ZDB seeks to impose a statutory requirement for consultation before the Secretary of State issues statutory guidance on shared approach to compliance. Guidance for businesses and local authorities will be very important to provide detail of how the extended scheme will work in practice. The views of all interested parties will be vital in making the scheme work as well as it possibly can. For this reason, a commitment was given during Committee debates in the other place that,
“any guidance published as a result of the clause will be developed in consultation with stakeholders, including businesses, local authorities, trade associations and business groups”.—[Official Report, Commons, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill Committee, 12/7/12; col. 606.]
I should like to pick up on a number of the comments raised. My noble friend Lord Deben asked about continuing the process. The Government are committed to the primary authority scheme. It is a key tool in reducing red tape and ending the tick-box culture of regulation.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, asked at the beginning of the debate whether there were any extensions to primary authorities in the pipeline. I can confirm that the Government are consulting on extending primary authorities to include several new regulations, including those on sunbeds, if I read the noble Lord correctly. He also asked about statutory guidance and consultation. The Secretary of State already issues statutory guidance in relation to the primary authority scheme, and Clause 59(5) provides that the Secretary of State can also issue guidance on the matters likely to be taken into account in assessing whether a business meets the new “shared” approach to compliance test. In Committee in the House of Commons, a commitment was made to develop guidance in consultation with stakeholders, including local authorities. I can confirm that the existing statutory guidance will be updated to include further content relating to these proposals. This will be in place, in time for the proposed extension of eligibility becoming effective.
In summary, I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments, because I hope that I have provided sufficient reassurance that these matters will be dealt with by guidance, taking into account the views of interested parties.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I look forward to the Minister’s response. I am bound to say to the noble Baroness, with whom I normally agree wholeheartedly, that I remain unconvinced of the case that has been made. There is an easement for local authorities that want to go down a different route to that provided for in the Bill. As the Minister said in response to my previous amendment, local authorities are free to react to emergency situations or local complaints should they arise. The inspection plans apply only to routine and proactive inspections. I wait to hear the Minister’s response, but this is not a proposition with which we can align ourselves.
Lord Curry of Kirkharle
My Lords, I will also try to reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross. Under the new governance arrangements that exist for the primary authority scheme with the Better Regulation Delivery Office, there is significant representation from local government on that governance body. I therefore hope that she will be reassured that there will be considerable discussion between the Better Regulation Delivery Office and local government on how the scheme will be implemented.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, Clause 60 strengthens primary authority inspection plans. Its effect is to make it binding for local authorities to act in accordance with a plan which is in force. Strengthening inspection plans in this way is a crucial measure for the Government’s aim of,
“ending the culture of ‘tick-box’ regulation”.
Under the current provisions, primary authorities and businesses can work together to establish an inspection plan. Several businesses have done so, and report more informed and better targeted enforcement as a result. As things stand, local authorities must have regard only to plans, and are not bound by them. We have been told by primary authorities that plans and requests for feedback are not being followed in many cases. This means that the full benefits of inspection plans are not being realised, and many businesses are put off developing them because they do not have confidence that they will be followed.
With this clause, it is our intention to remedy this problem and to improve inspection plans. We are giving them the teeth that they need to deliver as much benefit for businesses as possible. This will ensure that businesses and primary authorities have certainty that inspections will be carried out in accordance with the plans in which they have invested. It will also mean that essential, timely feedback is received to keep the business informed of its key risks. Inspection plans are a crucial tool in enabling businesses to earn recognition for their compliance procedures and to reduce the burden of regulation. They also allow firms to focus on the key risks to their business and optimise their procedures, saving valuable time and wasted effort and allowing them to provide a better service to their customers.