BBC Funding

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

Tuesday 25th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

As I have said, the BBC is operationally as well as editorially independent, so it is up to the BBC to decide how it spends its settlement and how it continues to deliver for licence fee payers. That is a decision that is being repeated by many businesses and in many households across the country as people tighten their belts; it is important that they do so.

We spoke in our previous debate about the dangers of groupthink and the BBC’s own acknowledgment of the work that has to be done to ensure that it fully reflects the country that it serves, with the Serota review and other things. That work is to be welcomed and I think it was welcomed across your Lordships’ House. This is not a matter of party politics but of making sure that the BBC reflects the country that it serves and the people whose hard-earned money pays for its services.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, if the BBC is to justify its fee, its news programmes must be honest and straightforward? Last weekend, there was a demonstration in London by people who were against compulsory vaccination. The BBC news reported it as being attended by “hundreds of people”. I saw it myself, repeated more than once—“hundreds of people”—when in fact there were thousands and thousands of people at the demonstration who could be clearly seen on another channel at the same time as the BBC was saying that there were only hundreds. What does that do to the BBC’s credibility, and what will all those people who attended that demonstration, or watched the comparison on television, think about the BBC and the licence fee?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The number of people attending protests is often disputed by the people who take part, the police and the reports that are made of them, so I hope that my noble friend will forgive me if I am not drawn into my assessment of the protest or of the reports. The BBC is editorially independent. It reports the news in an independent way; it grapples with often highly politically charged issues as it does so, and it has a means for people who feel that its bulletins are not fair to make their voices heard and seek redress. That is one of the reasons why it is so cherished.

Online Sexual Harassment of Children

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

Monday 24th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The noble Baroness is a tireless campaigner on this important issue and the Internet Watch Foundation does very important work. We are keen to bring the online safety Bill to your Lordships’ House and get it on the statute book for the protections it will bring. In the meantime, we are taking steps, and asking the Children’s Commissioner to conduct this report was part of that. In addition, the new relationship, sex and health education curriculum is clear that, by the end of secondary school, pupils should be taught about the impact that viewing harmful content, such as pornography, can have. We continue to keep that under review.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, until quite recently a child’s bedroom was a safe haven; now every child’s bedroom has had a door cut in it marked “the internet”. A child of whatever age, at whatever time of day or night, can go through that door and their parents will not know where they have gone, who they are talking to and what they are doing. The effects are quite horrendous, not least when the example is hard pornography. Is it any surprise that mental illness and suicides are increasing in this age group? It is quite plain the reason for it. Can the Minister do all we possibly can as a matter of the greatest urgency to close this horrible door?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My noble friend is right, and of course it is not just on computers but on smartphones that people are able to access the internet. The majority of people, children included, have a beneficial experience online; we are keen to maintain that, while bringing in the safeguards that are important for them, and that is what the online safety Bill seeks to do. In the meantime, we are very grateful to the Children’s Commissioner for her work in helping parents and grandparents have the important conversations with young people who are using the internet.

Online Harms White Paper

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

Tuesday 30th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, this is a vast subject, and I will limit my comments to just a few areas.

I and others on these Benches welcome this White Paper, in particular the attempt to rethink the way we see this whole area. In the past we brought in individual laws to deal with particular problems. My colleague the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford has been arguing for some while that we need to see this as public space. We need to try to understand how we can regulate it from first principles in a way that guarantees the freedoms we want and the huge benefits that have come through the online world, which has made a huge and incalculable difference to our lives, but also protects the many people who are vulnerable. We have heard some account of just some of the problems some people have faced.

If the Government are to achieve the aim of making this country the safest place in the world to go online, we need to learn from other industries that are also seeking to be regulated. The whole question that I have been most closely associated with and have taken a particular interest in is regulating the gambling industry. It seems to me that there are a number of parallels that we need to take on board if we are to think about what might be the appropriate way of regulating.

It has been encouraging that the Gambling Commission has taken a stronger line on an industry that in the past performed abysmally in its duty of care to its customers. If companies such as Facebook, Snapchat or YouTube are to behave, the regulators will need to have significant powers and there will need to be real independence. Yet, if they look at some of the other regulators, why on earth are they going to fear? For example, just as the gambling industry’s gross gaming yield continues to grow far into the billions, Facebook’s revenue is now around £55 billion per annum. The substantial fines that we were being perennially promised in the battle to combat wrongful behaviour are very modest and really do not make the companies blink for one moment. Indeed, some cynics have been arguing that some of these companies simply budget in the fines as part of their ongoing business so that they can keep going as they have in the past. Similarly, the largest fine Facebook has received from a UK watchdog is around £500,000. These companies are in a totally different league. Therefore, there is a question about not only how we regulate them but how we get them to engage with the wider debate about the sort of world we want to create.

When I speak with families who have lost loved ones to gambling-related harms, they want to know why companies rarely lose their licences. It appears that the larger high street companies have little to fear that that might be the case. Putting it very bluntly, one of the questions I want to ask is: could it be envisaged, under the proposals as they emerge, that some of these companies could actually find their licences being revoked if they are not able or willing to deliver the public goods we need them to deliver?

The White Paper, I suppose not surprisingly, gives limited details on the funding and membership of the regulator and the regulatory body. I would be very concerned if a solely industry-funded organisation might lead to a culture of mistrust, especially surrounding the urgent need to have independent research and scrutiny. The regulator and any regulatory bodies need to be completely independent of the industry. We will be kidding ourselves if we do not think that the industry is already recruiting and deploying people to lobby individual Members of both Houses. I am sure that is already going on.

But all this is irrelevant if the regulators themselves are ignored. Again going back to gambling, the issue I have been closely associated with, last week I was surprised to see that the Minister for Sport and Gambling appeared to dismiss a call for a mandatory levy, just minutes after the chair of the industry regulator had precisely called for one. Can the Government pledge to this House that any similar tough calls from the regulator will be championed, not rejected?

I have one or two other concerns that I want to touch on at this early stage of the discussion we are having, as we set out various issues to be debated. For example, the White Paper clearly highlights the use of addiction by certain sorts of products online. This is about not just gambling but gaming. The evidence has been growing very consistently that many things online can be hugely addictive; indeed, they are designed to keep you online for long periods. Many people will be aware that one of the issues is that a large proportion of company profits stem from the small problem group of people who are addicted to gambling, gaming or whatever it is. Indeed, they rather rely on it for their profits. Yet we do not seem to have much in this White Paper about how to deal with these products, which are designed to be addictive. This is something that was picked up by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, in her report Disrupted Childhood.

What are we going to do to address these things taking hold of people’s time and energy, and in some cases becoming quite obsessive? For example, will future legislation require gaming companies to have a “pause” function, allowing people to stop and take a breath? What about the mechanism to regulate “dark nudges”, which I have been reading about? People with potential addictions find that, at just the moment they try to come off, some extra new thing is offered to them in an uncanny way that seems to have been designed to do so. These are particularly problematic when you talk to people who are recovering or are addicts. How are we going to address these issues? With so many online companies using addictive products, it would be good for many users if an as yet unnamed future regulator ensured we had some research on how to deal with this sort of issue.

I dread to think of the Minister thinking that a regulator is going to be a silver bullet. This is a much bigger societal issue that we have to go on debating. I am concerned that, while the White Paper portrays the experience of the gambling sector as a land illuminated by sunlit uplands, all due to an industry regulator, that is not how it appears to many of the addicts or their families who have lost loved ones. Vulnerable people and children using the internet deserve the right level of regulation. That will involve some self-regulation, though I have to say that in my experience, talking with people, self-regulation is not working very well in other industries. Just last week, Snapchat was revealed to have extraordinarily weak standards of age verification.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

I have been listening very carefully and have followed the debate from the beginning. Would the right reverend Prelate accept that, given that there is a greater urgency about this matter than just dealing with the White Paper—although that is extremely welcome and constructive—and given that even as we speak, primary school children are accessing hardcore porn, sadly it is now time for rather draconian measures?

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

Monday 14th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I feel a lot of sympathy for the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, and commend what he is trying to do. I think that I shall be able to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that we are not as far apart as he might think. The noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, raised with great enthusiasm the point that we should ensure as a country that we use our rich resources wisely. We share his excitement about the huge potential of big data to improve health and care. We acknowledge that, if we leverage these data to their full potential, that will have huge positive impact in improving care, giving people greater control, enabling the system to plan better and target support and treatments to those who can benefit, and it will transform our already world-leading life sciences industry.

Nevertheless, in the judgment not just of the DCMS but also the Department of Health and Social Care—I know that the noble Lord has been speaking to my noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy, on this subject—Amendment 53B risks undermining the work already being done in this space. NHS England, the Department of Health and Social Care and the Office for Life Sciences are already undertaking a programme of work that looks seriously at the public benefits that can be derived from NHS data. They are committed to working with representatives of the public and industry to explore how to maximise the benefits of health and care data for patients and taxpayers. In doing so, it is vital that service users and patients are involved every step of the way. They will accept and support the use of their health data only if they understand how and why their information is being used and how everyone will benefit. We must take the public with us on this journey, rather than imposing a code now.

My noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy and his ministerial colleagues at the Department of Health and Social Care have made a written commitment to keeping the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, involved in future discussions about this work. He will make a valuable contribution with his expertise in this matter, ensuring that we maximise the value in these datasets.

I want to answer straightaway and head-on the point about why the Government should not consider that we extract the full value of the taxpayers’ data. Of course, it is absolutely right that public sector bodies should be aware of the value of the data that they hold, but that value can be extracted in many ways, not solely through monetary means. For example, sharing health data with other companies that analyse that data may lead to a deeper understanding of diseases and potentially even to new cures. That is why we want to take some time to explore this important issue fully and try to find the most appropriate solution, should one be needed, rather than tying ourselves to one approach now. That was raised in the other place when this issue was discussed by amendments from people who are very concerned about how health data are being treated. As I said before, we have to be very careful, particularly when talking about health data, how we use datasets when people have given their information on the basis that it is anonymous and is extremely sensitive.

The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, rightly broadened the issue a bit from just health data. He asked how much data we are commercialising, at home and abroad, and to whom. He suggested that bodies other than central government should take charge of a process for measuring and tracking these flows of significant data. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, mentioned the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation. A body exactly such as that can, in this very fast-moving area, consider the balance between the need to protect an individual’s anonymity and the sensitivity of their data, and that data’s monetary value and use for things such as curing disease.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, made some interesting remarks about how information would be abused by the Government and the broad powers we have taken in the Bill. I remind her that the GDPR, which takes effect directly on 25 May, is exactly about protecting data subjects’ rights. For example, it allows data subjects the rights of rectification and erasure. The point about subject access rights is to allow individuals to have more protection than they currently do. The Bill brings some of those rights and extends them into areas which are not even covered by EU competence. I do not agree with the noble Baroness that we are abusing the powers.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

I apologise for interrupting the Minister. I have not been in the House long, so have not heard the whole debate, but I was listening to a programme about this subject at lunchtime today. The impression was clearly given that lives were being put at risk because of oversensitivity about the sharing of data. Perhaps the Minister will get his advisers to check what was said on that programme and see how much sense it made.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I will find out what was said. We should deal with what the GDPR calls special categories of data very sensitively. We should take data on health, sexual orientation, ethnicity and things like that very seriously. That is what the GDPR does and we will continue to do it under the Bill.

Finally, I return to the Commons amendments. I am afraid we still cannot support Amendments 53A and 53B as, at the moment, we believe that they are fundamentally the wrong solution. However, I hope that the productive discussions, to which the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, referred, along with what I have said today, have convinced the noble Lord that our vision is aligned and that he finds sufficient reassurance in these words, and the written assurances that he has had from my noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy, to be able to withdraw his amendment.