Public Bodies (Marine Management Organisation) (Fees) Order 2014
Lord Greenway Excerpts(9 years, 10 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)
My Lords, the order is made under the Public Bodies Act 2011. Section 4 of the Act enables Ministers to make an order modifying the funding arrangements of certain public bodies, including the Marine Management Organisation. The purpose of the order is to allow the MMO to charge for the monitoring, varying and transfer of marine licences.
The MMO is the principal regulator of marine activities around England and was created by the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. Its mission is to enable sustainable growth in our marine area, facilitating growth in coastal communities while protecting and enhancing the marine environment. Its responsibilities include the operation of the marine licensing system in English waters and the offshore waters of Wales and Northern Ireland.
Part 4 of the Marine and Coastal Access Act created the new streamlined marine licensing system for most UK waters. The system replaced the previous licensing system under the Food and Environment Protection Act 1985. A marine licence enables consistent decision-making about what activities are allowed to take place in the marine environment. Developments subject to a marine licence can range from small projects, such as the installation of buoys or the construction of small jetties, to larger harbour, dredging and wind farm developments. It is government policy to recover licensing costs where practicable. To a large extent, the Marine and Coastal Access Act and regulations made under it allow for the recovery of most of the costs associated with marine licensing. Indeed, the fee structure for marine licensing was updated and revised in April this year. This revision was designed to ensure that the calculation of fees more accurately reflected the actual costs incurred by the MMO.
However, the powers in the Marine and Coastal Access Act do not allow for the recovery of all the costs associated with monitoring, variations and transfers of licences. These costs were recoverable under the previous licensing system, and it was never the intention to omit them from the Marine and Coastal Access Act. The proposed order under the Public Bodies Act is therefore designed to close this particular funding gap. The order specifies that the MMO may charge a fee in relation to monitoring an activity authorised by a marine licence, the variation of an existing licence and the transfer and variation of a licence from the licensee to another person. The order specifies the level of the fees that may be charged. The basic principle is to charge applicants for the hours that are worked on a case, with the hourly rate fixed at £94. However, maximum ceilings will apply to simple variations or transfers, or the monitoring of non-complex cases. This is intended to provide greater certainty for smaller businesses and other operators. A different formula will apply in relation to the monitoring of disposal sites for dredged material. In these cases, the fee is calculated on a per tonne basis, up to a maximum of £15,000. This is because disposal sites are typically used by more than one operator and the MMO needs to have a method for apportioning the monitoring costs. Once in force, the order will increase the MMO’s income from marine licensing by about £600,000 a year. In the overall context, that sum of money may not appear huge but, in the context of the MMO’s budget of about £28 million and the focus on costs, it will make an important difference.
We have consulted on these proposals. As explained in the explanatory document accompanying this order, most respondents agreed with the overall principle and the need to recover costs. However, there were inevitably some concerns about the potential burden of regulation and the need for transparency and consistency in charging. We and the MMO are sensitive to the pressures on marine businesses and other users and have worked hard to remove unnecessary regulation and make the system work as efficiently as possible. This has included exempting low-risk activities, the use of longer licences for activities such as dredging and disposal, fast-track licensing for simple straightforward applications and the introduction of a coastal concordat to improve co-ordination of the consenting process for coastal developments in England.
I am grateful to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for clearing the draft order within the 40-day affirmative procedure. In its consideration of the order, the committee agreed with the Government that in the longer term it will be desirable to rectify the deficiency in charging powers through an amendment to the Marine and Coastal Access Act. My department will continue to look for a suitable opportunity to do so in the future.
In summary, the Government consider that the approach set out in this order will provide a fair means of charging, a modest saving to taxpayers and an essential support to the MMO’s efforts in safeguarding the marine environment. To this end, I commend the order to the Committee.
Lord Greenway (CB)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of the order, which I very much welcome. I chaired the joint pre-legislative scrutiny committee on the Marine and Coastal Access Bill. One of the concerns of the committee was the funding of the Marine Management Organisation. That was reinforced during the passage of the Bill through this House. As the Minister said, the Marine Management Organisation is still somewhat underfunded. This is especially so since Defra’s budget was cut. I think that what is proposed here is really a variation on the “user pays” principle. It is absolutely right that the MMO should be able to recover the full costs of varying or monitoring marine licences. In my opinion, the measure is very much to be welcomed. I think the Minister said that the MMO will gain to the tune of £600,000 a year and the taxpayer will be saved from paying that amount.
Marine Conservation Areas
Lord Greenway Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord De Mauley
My noble friend is absolutely right to raise that issue. I have done the best I can to address the issue of timing. We will complete the consultation and, as soon as we can, we will announce its results and move on to further tranches. As regards the involvement of the European Union, and indeed individual member states, of course they will be listened to when they make their responses to the consultation.
Lord Greenway
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the Government will continue to take a balanced approach when designating these sites, taking into account all interests? Will he also confirm that any site will not inhibit the free passage of international shipping on which we, as an island nation, depend for almost all our needs?
Lord De Mauley
Again, I entirely agree with the noble Lord that all sides of the argument must be listened to. They have been in the process through the regional projects, they will continue to be listened to through the consultations, and similar processes will apply in future tranches.
British Waterways Board (Transfer of Functions) Order 2012
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Lord Framlingham
My Lords, I am not sure whether my remarks relate directly to the transfer functions, but this is an opportunity for me to get rid of the bee that I have had in my bonnet for some time now about the relationship between waterways and youth unemployment. Some months ago I was studying a map of British waterways and it struck me that they wind throughout our country and are never very far away from centres of population. They could well be combined with an imaginative and, I hope, simple scheme to help our young unemployed. Many years ago I worked for British Waterways. This is not such a mad idea; I ran it past the Prime Minister, although admittedly on a social occasion and he did not hang around for long, and he thought, at least initially, that it sounded like a very good idea.
Think about it for a moment. The skills required to renovate and maintain our waterways include everything from pulling out Tesco trolleys to skilled bricklaying, piling and digging—all sorts of skills. I would have thought that it ought to be possible to invent a scheme that allowed young people to use their talents across that whole range of skills and give them something to do. At the end they could be given some kind of certificate or qualification that would benefit both them and the waterways. It would have to be kept simple but I envisage something really quite formal, with jobcentres throughout the country linking the whole thing together. Initially this might perhaps sound a little imaginative, but think about the geographical relationship of the waterways to centres of unemployment and the jobs requirement. A whole variety of jobs could be found for young people, and they could be given different kinds of qualifications, allowing them to start very simply and then build up their portfolio of qualifications as they went. I do not know whether they would need money; I would like to think that young people would work for the benefits that they were already getting, but I appreciate that that is a little controversial. They might well be prepared to do that, though, to get the value out of the schemes that they were being offered.
I put that on record as a suggestion but I will also follow it up in other quarters as best I can. I hope that the Minister might at least log it and give it some thought.
Lord Greenway
My Lords, I apologise for coming late to the Grand Committee, and I apologise if I say something that has been said already. It is especially pleasing to see the Minister back on maritime affairs in some form or another. He will recall that we spent many hours dealing with the Marine and Coastal Access Act some two or three years ago.
I welcome the proposed measures. As the noble Lord who sat down just now has said, as no doubt have many others, they were subject to extensive negotiations. I know full well that the British Marine Federation was very worried when they were first mooted but, as a result of the negotiations and especially of the welcome funding, its fears have been allayed. I certainly wish the new organisation a slightly better start than the Marine Management Organisation had. That was set up by the Marine and Coastal Access Act and the first few months, to put it mildly, were somewhat disturbing. Since then I am glad to say that things have improved enormously. I wish the new organisation well.
Finally, and rather flippantly, the Shropshire Union Canal was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts. Most noble Lords will know that I am a boating man, but I am very much a deep-sea boating man. I am afraid that I am a bit of a stranger to canals. However, I did once find myself standing above a bridge on the Shropshire Union Canal during the annual yachting shoot. It was a glorious, frosty, autumn morning, and never have I more wanted to be on a canal boat travelling along that most inviting-looking stretch of water. I might add that the only pheasant I saw all day craftily flew under the bridge beneath me, so the score was pheasant 1: Greenway nil.
Lord Martin of Springburn
My Lords, I, too, apologise for being late to the Committee. Monday is a day for travelling from Scotland, and I travelled within yards of the Forth and Clyde Canal, which I wish to talk about. I am dependent on trains and other modes of transport to get here. I declare an interest as I know that that is important in this place. I am a card-carrying member of the Forth and Clyde Canal Society, which was started at a time when people saw no value in the canal that runs from the west of Scotland to the east. At one stage in the 1960s, part of the canal was filled in to accommodate a motorway, but because of the good people in that organisation, that has been rectified and it is now navigable from the west to the east.
I remember from reading the history of the canal, which is absolutely fascinating, that the Member of Parliament who was responsible for putting the legislation through—we know that canals need parliamentary legislation—was a Mr Lawrence Dundas. I do not think he declared the fact that he owned land in the east coast in an area called Grangemouth, for which he was a Member of Parliament. However, I declare my interest here. I feel that British Waterways Scotland does an excellent job. Through the co-operation of everyone, including central government, the Scottish Government and the local authority, we have built the great Falkirk wheel—a fantastic piece of technology that lifts the barges from the Forth and Clyde on to the Union Canal. I understand that no more energy is used than would be used for 10 electric toasters. The early pioneers of canal building were fantastic surveyors, builders and civil engineers—Telford being one of them.
Over the years, the tow-paths of the canals have been used like a public park. They have become very safe places for dog-walking, cycling and running, so it is not only those who have a boat or a barge who can enjoy the canal. It should also be remembered that within our cities, the canal is the one area where young people, who are perhaps living in housing estates that could be improved, have the ability to see our wildlife without necessarily having to go into the countryside.
I know that this is not written into this order, but I put it to the Minister that if he is speaking to anyone in British Waterways, a major advantage of the Caledonian canal is that seagoing shipping can cross from Europe through to the west coast of Scotland because the waterway is very big and there is no worry about tides. However, at its east side the Forth and Clyde Canal ends at the River Carron, which goes into the River Forth and is tidal. That means that it is not so easy for anyone who has leisure or sea-going yachts to negotiate their way into the Forth and Clyde canal. I understand that there might be proposals to canalise, in the technical jargon, that part of the River Carron. I hope that that can come about because leisure and tourism are very important for our canals.
In my former constituency is an area called Port Dundas, which is a canal port. A great warehouse there was lying derelict but developers came along and developed it in a very positive way. As a result, one of the poorest municipal wards in Britain, if not in Europe, then had very wealthy people staying in that ward. That was a positive thing because it meant that there were then people in the community who could look at their neighbours’ problems and see what they could do to help. Many of them got involved in community projects in adjoining housing estates such as Possil Park and Hamiltonhill, which I do not expect other noble Lords to know about. My point is that that development helped other people socially. Those buildings were of course built very solidly and have become attractive flats. Other developers then came along and said, “Well, if it can be done at Port Dundas, it can be done along the banks of the canal”.
I hope I might be allowed to say that some development can be positive, such as the warehouses at Port Dundas, but that some other developments are not too attractive. The developer might come along in good faith and with the best of intentions. However, the community always has to have a say in what developments should go on because people are very proud of their canals and the environment thereof. I hope that whenever consultative bodies are consulted, it is borne in mind that the local communities, which have been there for years, should never be overlooked when it comes to the concerns that they might have about development.
Public Bodies Bill [HL]
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Lord Greenway
My Lords, I very much echo what the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, said in relation to freight carried on some of these inland waterways, as I do the concerns that he mentioned. How exactly will freight fit into a charitable organisation? I am sure that the Government have given this some thought, but we would be grateful if the Minister could give us an indication of how they intend to deal with that.
The Minister will be pleased to hear that the British Marine Federation, which is the representative body of the leisure marine industry, is broadly supportive of the Government’s move to transfer the British Waterways Board into the charitable sector. It sees it as a great opportunity to place the running of canals and certain parts of navigable rivers on to a sustainable footing for years to come and to create the right conditions for the continuation of what is a thriving inland marine economy.
The federation’s own members—boat operators and marinas—generate some £144 million a year and employ 2,500 people. However, many other businesses, such as pubs, hotels and boatyards, also depend on waterways for their livelihood. It is estimated that for every person directly employed in the inland marina sector an additional 10 jobs are generated from associated services. The overall related tourism spend on inland waterways is estimated to be in excess of the not inconsiderable sum of £1 billion a year. However, there are caveats, one of which is that the BMF thinks that the new body must be a completely new organisation, with a new board representative of those whose interests are concerned, and not simply a rebranding exercise. Navigation must be retained as its primary role.
We have heard concerns regarding funding, which I certainly share. Funding should not simply be sourced from boating and fishing licences. Other stakeholders who derive benefit from these national assets should also play their part, possibly even local authorities. I believe that the Government should provide some sort of contract or guarantee to ensure that the waterways are not prejudiced by commercial failure, which of course can happen to a charity. I hope that the Government are looking at that very seriously.
Lord Henley
My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, I regret that we have been deprived of the pleasure of having my noble friend Lord Greaves move this amendment this afternoon, but I am very grateful that his noble friend was able to step in and move it, because it is important that the Government set out their case in relation to the waterways.
As the Committee will be aware, the British Waterways Board was originally established under the Transport Act 1962 to operate and maintain much of Britain’s waterways network. In passing, I shall mention that we are dealing with England and Wales here; Scotland is another matter. I am not sure that any waterways go across the border, so there are not going to be any concerns there. However, I remember that with the passage of the Scotland Act we had problems with some of the rivers—
Draft United Kingdom Marine Policy Statement
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Lord Greenway
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for introducing the debate. Having been away for several days, including the weekend, I only realised on Monday that this debate was to take place and therefore, although I have had a brief look through the Government’s draft marine policy statement, I confess that I have not read it in detail. I must also confess that from what I have read, a lot of it is a little confusing and there is an awful lot of verbiage. I think that it could have been considerably simplified. That apart, on what it covers, it is reasonably comprehensive. Certainly, my friends in the marine industries are supportive of the general content. I also welcome the Minister’s words telling us that work is due to start on the marine plans in March.
In some ways the document is far-sighted, and I particularly welcome the fact that under paragraph 3.3 dealing with energy, particularly renewable energy, mention is made of the potential of tidal and wave energy. I have always been a proponent of this type of energy because energy from wind farms is to some extent overrated. I am glad that this document looks ahead because as time goes on and more development takes place, we may well find that energy, particularly that derived from tides, is much greater than anyone realises. Indeed, some people are already projecting that up to 20 per cent of the country’s energy needs could come from tidal sources. I recognise that this is an early stage in its development, but it is something that certainly we should take note of.
I turn now to references to ports and shipping, particularly in paragraph 3.4. I welcome the decision that,
“the decision-maker should take into account and seek to minimise any negative impacts on shipping activity, freedom of navigation and navigational safety. In particular, international maritime law should be respected”.
I declare a non-pecuniary interest as an Elder Brother of Trinity House. We are particularly concerned with navigational safety, so I am delighted to see that that wording is in the document. Obviously the increased development of offshore wind farms will have a possible impact on navigational safety, so it is something that we should watch very carefully. Incidentally, the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, mentioned the Dover Strait. I do not have any figures to hand to contradict what she said, and certainly in days gone by the strait used to be the worst area in the world for collisions, but since measures were taken to separate the main traffic lanes going east and west or north and south, the number of collisions has reduced dramatically. I would think that there are other areas around the world which could be equally as dangerous, if not more so.
I turn now to ports. I understand that there is some concern that arguments on the potential of port development are expressed in too one-sided a way, with only a brief reference to the positive economic benefits and much more apparent weight given to possible environmental disbenefits. The ports feel that there is a need for a more even-handed approach, which brings me back to the lengthy arguments that we had during the passage of the Marine and Coastal Access Bill, when we discussed sustainable development at great length, and how the different factions could come to an agreement. When the Marine Management Organisation starts planning, it will come across these problems and will have a lot of work on its hands.
I will say a brief word about paragraph 3.6 on marine dredging and disposal. It would be more accurate to describe this as “navigational dredging and disposal”, to make it absolutely clear that we are talking about navigational dredging. This paragraph should make reference also to the need to support existing and future port development.
I turn now to the recreational side of the boating business, covered by paragraph 3.11. The British Marine Federation represents the leisure maritime industry. It feels that there is a possible case here for separation. The boating industry refers to those who own a boat, or go in other people’s boats, for pleasure, whereas the tourism side refers to people who go on holiday to beaches and perhaps take a short trip in a boat down the coast. These are separate activities and the latter is small compared with the overall marine leisure boating industry.
Most maritime interests are concerned that the designation of marine conservation zones is being taken as a pre-emptive, stand-alone exercise that is not part of the marine planning process. They feel that it would be much better if this were dealt with in the whole marine planning process.
As I hinted a few minutes ago, marine plans will be the key at local level. That is when the nitty-gritty of this exercise will start. The Marine Management Organisation will take forward these plans and will have a tough job on its hands. All of us who were involved in the Joint Committee that looked at the Marine and Coastal Access Bill recognise this. We were also concerned that the MMO would not be properly funded. I hope that the departures of the chairman and chief executive after only a few months in post were not as a result of fiscal concerns.
This document is a good way forward. It can be tweaked a little, but I would like to see it accepted as soon as possible, and for us to get on with the planning process.
Fishing Boats (Electronic Transmission of Fishing Activities Data) (England) Scheme 2010
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Lord Lee of Trafford
My Lords, the Liberal Democrat Benches support the requirement in the scheme as a means of ensuring a more efficient and accurate form of recording fishing vessel activity than the previous practice of using paper logbooks and landing declarations, thus benefiting conservation. I have a particular question for my noble friend about training. In the validation and accreditation of the software systems that meet the agreed UK specification, how much regard do the contractors have for the need of training for fishermen and other operators when using the new electronic system? Many workers will have worked within the industry for a number of years and will not be used to operating such systems, so I hope that the contractors will have in mind systems that are user-friendly and simple to understand. Will the systems that meet the UK specification be similar to those used by other member states? Given the international nature of fishing operations, it would be pleasing to know that the UK Government have thought about electronic systems that will be used by neighbouring countries. Do Her Majesty’s Government have an estimate of how long the scheme will run for? What is the appropriate appeals system should an applicant be turned down for a grant? Are new entrants into the fishing industry eligible for the scheme once this legislation has come into force? Overall, we wish the scheme well and hope to see its speedy passage into law.
Lord Greenway
Putting subsidies for software aside for the moment, can the Minister say whether all 200-plus fishing boats of more than 15 metres are fitted with the relevant hardware and satellite communications systems? How will that apply when the limit is reduced to 12 metres?
The Duke of Montrose
It is most interesting to see this issue brought forward at this time. I cannot go into the problems that have been dug up by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, but I feel that we are going down the right road as regards the fishing industry. Countries such as Norway have had satellite tracking systems. I do not know whether, when the daily reports of the fishing vessels are submitted, that will include the satellite positioning of the boats. I would also be interested to know whether the data to be put in will include details of discards. I ask this because one of the problems with the common fisheries policy is the generally loose accuracy of reports in one way or another, including no reports of discards at all. Is that reporting a possibility under this software system? Lastly, the Minister said that at present a landing declaration has to be made. Will that be done electronically or will it be fed in separately?