Dangerous Dogs Act 1991: New Breeds

Lord Hogan-Howe Excerpts

Thursday 14th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I entirely understand the noble Lord’s point. Most of us who keep a dog can know its breed precisely because there is a breed registration book and it is perfectly easy to describe it. There is no evidence of how you define some of these “fighting dogs” or “status dogs”, as some people call them. I am not making some bureaucratic excuse for not taking action because we are taking action but, in order to make the law effective, if we are going to ban a breed, we have to really ban it and not allow people to get round it by having some nuance of that breed.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I was chief constable in Merseyside when a five year-old child in St Helens was murdered by one of these awful breeds. As the Minister said, there are difficulties in defining the breed; I think a Labrador can be regarded as one of these breeds on some occasions so it is really not straightforward. One of the things I instigated at the time, with the agreement of the CPS, was an amnesty for owners of illegal breeds because the main thing is to get these dogs off the streets and not leave them in position. Of course, it is hard for the owners to hand them over voluntarily because they are declaring that they are an illegal animal; it is hard for neighbours to declare it, too. At a time when the Government are considering what to do next, might they consider a national amnesty for the present illegal breeds to get the dogs off the street rather than worrying about, as has been explained, the consequences?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. Under the Dangerous Dogs Act, there is an exemption procedure whereby the person can keep the dog provided that they stick to various conditions, such as it being taken out on a lead and wearing a muzzle. Of course, that does not solve the problem entirely. We want to see these dogs removed. There are ways of doing that and very serious penalties, including up to 14 years in prison, for people who break those rules. We are talking to the National Association of Police Chiefs and making sure that we are doing everything in the realm of the possible but our priority is to get dangerous dogs off the streets.

Ivory Trade

Lord Hogan-Howe Excerpts

Thursday 21st December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB) (Maiden Speech)]

My Lords, I rise to speak for the first time in your Lordships’ House. Many noble Lords may remember feeling as I do now, but without fear there is no courage, and therefore I shall plunge on. I should probably have made sure that my maiden speech was not preceded by the maiden speech of a former President of the Supreme Court, variously and accurately described as “brilliant” and “excellent” and as having been delivered with great flair. Again, I will plunge on. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, for this important debate on the impact of the trade in ivory on animal welfare.

Recently, during my first appearance on the BBC’s “Question Time”, a poor woman collapsed just after my contribution. The programme ended early for the first time in 30 years. Your Lordships can rest easy on their Benches—I will be neither contentious nor lengthy.

I thank many people for assisting me in my introduction to this House. My supporters, the noble Lords, Lords Alton and Lord Dholakia, are different men with common traits of sincerity, courage and judgment. I hope that noble Lords will understand if, first, I need to thank the police who keep us safe here. I also thank the doorkeepers, our catering staff, and Black Rod and his team—in fact, everyone who has helped me to negotiate my first steps through the maze of these corridors. I have found it a warm place. I find myself surprised to be standing here at all, and I am sure that many of your Lordships will have a similar feeling—perhaps even about their own elevation.

I was born in the great city of Sheffield, the proud son of a single unmarried mother. I grew up initially in a slum clearance house adjacent to the stainless steel works that made Sheffield’s name, followed by various council flats in the city. I mention my start only to emphasise that I have never judged people by their wealth, their status or their start in life—only by how they treat other people. A privileged start is no guarantee that a person will have a happy life; nor will a challenging start inevitably make someone caring or socially aware.

After school, I worked for a short time for the National Health Service in a histopathology lab. However, I was hungry for challenges and, looking for excitement, I joined the police. The police were and remain my heroes, stepping in to confront bullies. The routine is never predictable. Every day one meets new people and crises. I loved my 38 years as a police officer. I have walked the streets of Sheffield, Liverpool and London. I found I was good at arresting thieves and burglars. I have never lost the thrill of arresting the bad guy to protect the good guy.

I remember one night being angry at being taken away from my foot patrol to sit with a prisoner. The night before I had chased and caught a car thief. I was sure I would do so again that night. Little did I know that the man whom I sat with for a few hours was the Yorkshire Ripper. An interesting conversation took place.

I have arrested someone at every rank. I was the only chief constable in Merseyside to accompany the winner of the Grand National on horseback. In the Met, I uniquely patrolled with mounted branch at every London football ground—even Millwall, which I have to say I found to be incredibly peaceful, with caring staff and supporters, and I wrote to the chairman to point that out.

The police supported me through an education at Merton College, Oxford. I will always be grateful and will be their champion, but not without seeing their flaws at times. My colleagues and friends will always agree that one of my traits is to be challenging—and sometimes they mean it in a kindly way. I hope to bring that skill to this House, combining it with the ability to listen, enabling me to be both passionate and caring in my judgment.

We need to apply forensic judgment to the trade in ivory. At present, the bad guys are getting away with it. As we have heard, the poachers are slaughtering an elephant every 25 minutes—equivalent to 20,000 elephants a year. The largest demand for ivory worldwide is from China, Thailand and Vietnam. However, as noble Lords have already said, we must accept that legal domestic ivory markets contribute to this horror in two ways: by fuelling demand for ivory and by providing a hiding place for illegal modern ivory to be laundered through the legal market, and the UK is a significant trading place for legal ivory.

In those circumstances, I want to make it clear that I support a total or quasi ban on the trading of ivory in the UK for both domestic sale and export. I could support a total ban on ownership but there are still so many unanswered questions, as has been sketched out here today, about how to implement such a ban. In this connection, I would like to make the following points.

First, if it were only the UK that implemented a ban, how could this be effective worldwide? Until 2015, the UK had the largest amount of ivory exports in the world by a very significant degree. This unexplained trend started in 2010. Even today, we account for four times more ivory trading than the next country on the supply league table. So, both practically and symbolically, our effort would have a significant worldwide effect.

However, as we have heard, innocent owners of antique and modern ivory could at a stroke lose significant assets and might have a reasonable claim for compensation from the state. Great works of art might be lost or destroyed. Therefore, until I hear clearer answers to how a total ban on ownership might be implemented, I will reserve judgment.

I support the government proposals to ban the trade in ivory in the UK, but with three considerations that are important for me. First, the proposals talk entirely of banning sales but not gifts. If gifts and exchange are still allowed then a ban may be harder to police. It also provides a potential defence to allow a suspect to claim that they transferred the ivory to a new owner but did not sell it to them.

Secondly, I would want to see far more emphasis placed on recovering criminal assets from ivory poachers and those they sell to. I know from experience, as will police officers here and those I have worked with, that organised crime is always about profit. Criminals may trade in drugs, sometimes human beings, firearms or, as we have heard today, ivory, but always for profit. Take out the cash and you stop the crime; follow the cash and you will find the criminal.

Finally, I am concerned by one of the four exemptions to banning the sale of ivory, which proposes continuing to allow the sale of items of artistic, cultural or historic significance. In my view that is too subjective and too broadly drawn. I worry about the ability of the trade entirely to police itself.

I thank your Lordships for your patience and support in this, my first speech in this place. I greatly look forward to contributing to the important work that the House undertakes to keep our people safe, healthy and economically strong.