Israel and Gaza

Lord Newby Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, for repeating today’s Statement. I reiterate that we recognise and appreciate his work, and the work of his ministerial and diplomatic colleagues.

I am sure the Minister will agree that it has been hard to be optimistic in recent weeks, as hostages remain under the control of Hamas and vast swathes of Gaza edge towards man-made preventable famine. The images we see on our TV screens and in the newspapers every day are no less harrowing today than they have been for many months. We must not allow the familiarity of that to lessen our sense of urgency in dealing with the ongoing conflict. Given the unimaginable suffering on both sides, it has been deeply disappointing that successive rounds of negotiations have broken up without agreement, and that the UN Security Council had previously been unable to achieve a consensus on a way forward. We therefore strongly welcome the passing of UN Security Council Resolution 2728 yesterday. The Minister’s comment about that shared sense of purpose is a significant one.

We welcome the Government’s change from abstention on other resolutions to support for this one, and recognise the significance of an abstention from the United States. We also acknowledge the Government’s statement of support for Prime Minister Mohammad Mustafa, who we hope the international community will do everything possible to support, and their commitment to doing what they can to ensure that this resolution is implemented in full. For this to be realised, and for the resolution to become a genuine and meaningful turning point, it means Hamas laying down its arms and releasing all the hostages, and Israel abiding by international calls to drastically scale up humanitarian aid.

I will follow up on questions that were raised in the other place this afternoon. MPs across the House of Commons, from all sides, asked the Minister whether the Government consider that the UN Security Council resolution is binding, and what implications this may have if its terms are not implemented. Is the Minister able to say some more on that, and outline his views on that today?

We accept that the Government want to see the resolution, including the ceasefire, succeed, but we are also trying to understand how the world responds if that is not the case. Regarding UNRWA, Minister Mitchell noted that the interim report is currently with the UN Secretary-General, and suggested that an update may be available later today. As the Shadow Foreign Secretary noted, one of the biggest issues faced by the civilians of Gaza is the distribution of the already limited aid that does get in.

We were all appalled, rightly, by the allegations against some UNRWA staff. Nevertheless, that body is best placed to ensure that finite supplies of water, food and fuel get to where they are needed most, and as quickly as possible. Can the Minister provide any updates on the UN’s work in this area and the Government’s response to it?

A further issue, raised earlier, is the advice on arms exports given to the Business Secretary by the Foreign Office. Did either department receive legal advice on the potential use of UK arms that would contravene international law? The Government have so far maintained the usual position that legal advice is not shared, and we understand that. But the Minister will be aware that summaries of advice have been published on many occasions. Most recently, he will be aware, each round of UK air strikes against Houthi rebels in Yemen has been preceded by a statement providing a summary of the legal advice. I wonder whether he has given thought to whether that could potentially be a model for the type of material that could be placed in the public domain on this occasion.

The Statement also referred to yesterday’s RAF aid drop over Gaza. The Minister said that the UK is contributing to aid initiatives, including participating in air drops co-ordinated by Jordan, but I think that this is the first time an RAF plane has been used for this purpose. Can the Minister confirm whether the Government are expecting to authorise further missions as part of an ongoing international effort to prevent catastrophic famine?

Finally, as the Minister concluded, we all recognise that the UN Security Council resolution does not guarantee peace, but its significance cannot be underestimated. It is a sign of the international community coming together, and we hope that it will be an important step towards ending the conflict and towards a lasting peace.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. As the House is aware, we on these Benches have been calling for an immediate bilateral ceasefire for a number of months. We welcome the resolution passed by the UN Security Council. Does the Minister agree that we need something more than a temporary ceasefire? We need to work to achieve a more permanent ceasefire, so that we can begin to move towards the reconstruction and political processes that are now so desperately needed.

We, like everybody else, are extremely concerned about the immense, and growing, humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza. Latest figures from the IPC, for example, show that more than half of all Palestinians in Gaza—some 1.1 million people—have completely exhausted their food supplies—just think of that. We of course welcome the fact that yesterday, for the first time, the RAF started dropping food supplies directly to civilians in Gaza, but that is, at best, a partial solution. What pressure have the UK Government put on Israel, and specifically the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories—which is run by Israel—to facilitate aid into Gaza to allow an increased flow of vehicles and supplies across the Israel-Gaza border?

We welcome the recent sanction of four Israeli settlers who have committed human rights abuses against Palestinian communities in the West Bank, making peace harder to achieve. Will the Government go beyond this and now sanction all violent settlers, along with National Security Minister Ben-Gvir, Finance Minister Smotrich and all the violent settler movement’s connected entities?

Israel has agreed to a US proposal on a prisoner-hostage exchange that would release about 700 Palestinian prisoners—among them 100 serving life sentences for killing Israelis—in exchange for the release of 40 Israeli hostages held by Hamas in Gaza. Once again, Hamas has rejected it, saying that “issues remain unresolved”. An essential step to ending this conflict is the unconditional release of all hostages held by Hamas in Gaza. Will the Minister commit to using all his best efforts to urge the Qataris to require Hamas to release all the hostages, starting with these 40, about whom there appears to be a nascent agreement?

Earlier this month, my right honourable friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton wrote to the Foreign Secretary, asking him to write to the International Criminal Court to ask it to issue international arrest warrants for Hamas terrorists involved in planning the 7 October attacks. Can the Minister commit to doing this?

The UN resolution is a welcome development, but in itself it will achieve little on the ground immediately. What we need now, as we have done for many weeks, is for all the parties to put in place the ceasefire that is so long overdue and so urgently needed.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Newby, for their support. Indeed, I thank many noble Lords who have kept the focus on this issue—the need for hostages to be released unconditionally—since the horrific events of 7 October. We see the continuing situation in Gaza unravel and the humanitarian catastrophe. It is very much on the brink. We debated the IPC report, with its real, clear warning signals about May. As I said from the Dispatch Box then, we agree totally with the recommendations about increasing humanitarian aid. I know that view is shared across the House.

In this respect, the noble Lord, Lord Newby, asked about COGAT specifically. We are working very closely with COGAT. Earlier today, I had my regular briefing with our humanitarian co-ordinator about specific numbers. We are watching this on a daily basis. While there has been an improvement from the representations we have made directly to Israel—we are talking about 200-plus trucks now—there is a need to scale this up massively. Indeed, Israel itself has stated the need to flood aid into Gaza. We were the first to call out the need for the Kerem Shalom crossing to be fully operational, and other crossings, particularly into the northern part of Gaza. We have repeatedly called for the opening of Ashdod port. We are working with close partners on this and engaging quite directly, not just with near neighbours but with other countries that are supporting the humanitarian effort directly on the ground, and, indeed, the UN.

The noble Baroness and the noble Lord asked about Hamas and hostages. I say again very clearly: Hamas could end this now by releasing the hostages unconditionally, and we could move forward on ensuring that aid reaches the people suffering in Gaza. I have met repeatedly with several of the hostages’ families. Their pain is incredible but their courage is equally so. Their advocacy for their loved ones and to bring closure to their suffering is something the Government are fully seized of.

We are also very much focused on the suffering of the Palestinians, when we see the number of people, including women and children, killed in this war. It is important that we bring this to a conclusion. That is why we welcome and thank both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for their support of the Government’s vote at the UN Security Council. A lot of people do not see the heavy lifting involved in the diplomatic effort. I pay tribute to our ambassador, Dame Barbara Woodward, and her team. I assure noble Lords that it went down to the wire, with changes on words and language, but we recognise the shift in the United States’s position, which was important in allowing this resolution to pass. We now ask for full compliance—the noble Baroness and the noble Lord referred to this—to ensure that we can, vitally, get the hostages out and aid to enter.

The noble Baroness and the noble Lord both asked about our engagement on the agreement, which still has not been finalised. We pay tribute to Qatar and Egypt, and to the United States. I am travelling to Egypt tomorrow. We are engaged with all sides on this. We are engaging directly with the Qataris as well as with the United States, because these are important first steps: to get the hostages out and the aid in.

The noble Baroness asked about UNRWA and the update on the interim report. This is a verbal report and briefing. There has been some media reporting on it but the final report will be presented to the Secretary-General on 20 April. We have been very clear about UNRWA and I believe the noble Baroness agrees with the Government’s position—which is shared by the Official Opposition—about the important role that UNRWA has played historically, not just in Gaza but in other near-neighbouring countries in providing support. Equally, the shocking reports we received which led to pausing future funding for UNRWA said that there were people involved with Hamas directly. We recognise the importance of mitigations being in place and look forward to the interim report.

We have not stopped our support, and over £100 million has now gone into Gaza. We are working with key agencies such as the World Food Programme and UNICEF to ensure that aid continues to reach Gaza. However, there is a challenge regarding the number of trucks going in. We have talked about maritime and air aid but anyone who has been to those border points —like my noble friend the Foreign Secretary and I—knows that the only way is through the land borders, which is why we continue to press that.

The noble Baroness asked about UN Security Council Resolution 2728—it is binding. The United Kingdom’s place is clear. Clarifications were provided on this. She asked about the RAF drop and I can confirm it was the first time. It was not the first time that UK aid was delivered, but working with the Jordanians we provide an RAF plane which has helped in this aid drop and is part of an ongoing programme. I add again that air drops cannot replace what is required through the land borders. The noble Baroness asked about arms exports and related legal advice. She is, of course, correct that it is for the Government to review that but I assure her that, as she is aware, our arms export licences are robust. On adherence to IHL, we keep this constantly under review.

The noble Lord asked about sanctions against settlers. We did act and while I cannot comment about future policy, the Government know this and have it available as a tool. I condemn—as I have done, and do so unequivocally—the comments from Mr Smotrich and Mr Ben-Gvir in relation to the Palestinians. I assure the noble Lord that they are no way reflected by many friends and people across Israel and the citizens of Israel. We need to ensure that the only way possible of reaching a lasting sustainable peace is through that two- state solution. That is why it is one of the Government’s focuses and priorities. He also asked about the ICC and writing, et cetera. I will take that back but I know the prosecutor at the ICC has visited both Israel and the West Bank and is very much focused on the situation as it is currently unravelling.

I thank both Front Benches for their support of the Government’s position. I know the leader of the Liberal Democrats recently visited the region as well. I assure noble Lords, as I have done before, particularly on the Front Benches, that we will continue to engage quite directly to ensure that the context of the situation on the ground is well understood. Equally, I respect the fact that many of us are very much on the same page and, irrespective of where we are coming to on this issue, we are all agreed that the hostages must be released now unconditionally, and at the same time we must see humanitarian, life-saving aid going into Gaza to relieve the suffering so we can take that vital step as assured by the UN Security Council resolution.

Ukraine: Humanitarian and Economic Support

Lord Newby Excerpts

Tuesday 5th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his question. I well remember when we were on the campaign trail together in Staffordshire. He was rather more successful: he fought South Staffordshire; I fought Stafford, and Stafford fought back rather effectively at the time.

I think we should be clear about the success the Ukrainians are having. It is not much remarked upon. Of course, the land picture is one thing, but what has happened on the Black Sea is that the Ukrainians have pushed the Russian navy right back across the Black Sea, sinking a number of their ships and opening up a grain corridor for ships. That is essential, because ultimately we need the Ukrainian economy to grow. Ships are now sailing, exports are moving and the economy is growing. They destroyed about one-fifth of Russia’s attack helicopters in one night recently. So, yes, there has been a difficult picture on land, but overall big success. Combined with the fact that this country is now knocking at the door of both NATO and the EU, that is a very positive picture for Ukraine, and it is important we get it across.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord to his position and to your Lordships’ House. It is clear that, whatever the outcome of the war, economic support on a considerable scale will be needed in Ukraine for many years to come. This has to be an international effort led by Europe, and if there is to be a co-ordinated European response, the UK has to be at the heart of it. What institutional framework involving the EU and UK does the noble Lord propose to ensure that economic support is provided in the most efficient and effective way?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. There are two answers to that. One is the EPC, this new body that brings together EU members with other European countries, including the United Kingdom. That is a good forum in which to talk about our support for Ukraine. The other is the Ukraine Recovery Conference that we hosted here in June, which will be a regular fixture—other countries will host it—and brings together everybody to make sure that we maximise the economic support. It marshalled something like $60 billion of economic support for Ukraine. So there are ways in which to make sure that we combine effectively with European partners and others to get this essential assistance in place.

Ukraine and Neighbouring Countries: ODA

Lord Newby Excerpts

Thursday 16th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

It is a very valuable suggestion, but I cannot unilaterally make decisions of the sort that would be needed at the Dispatch Box. I will certainly raise the issue as he has put it to me with colleagues in the Foreign Office, but the principle behind his question is absolutely right and is the position of the UK Government. Our view is that the Russians should be made to bear the brunt of the financial costs when it comes to repairing a country that Russia alone has brought to its knees—or attempted to.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

I will follow up on the question asked by my noble friend. I think the Minister said that the overseas assistance budget has not been increased to cater for funding going into Ukraine. A necessary corollary appears to be that poor countries will lose. Am I wrong?

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

I said earlier that the humanitarian funding comes from the ODA budget, as all humanitarian funding relating to all humanitarian crises always does, whatever the crisis—unfortunately, there are many such crises. That is a big part of what ODA exists to do, so it is right that it should come from that. However, not all the support we are providing to Ukraine, now and going forward, is coming from the ODA budget. For example, as the noble Lord will know, we have UK Export Finance, which has been mandated to provide as much support as possible to Ukraine in relation to its rebuilding, and to bring investment into it. Through the BII we are also doing what we can to try to stimulate and leverage investment in Ukraine as part of the rebuilding exercise. Some of the guarantees that we have provided through other multilateral institutions are not borne by the ODA budget. It is not all about the ODA budget, but the humanitarian assistance comes from it and I think it is right that it should.

EU: UK Membership

Lord Newby Excerpts

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Smith of Finsbury (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as one of the other seven “Smiths” in your Lordships’ House, I join in the warm congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, on her fine maiden speech. It was deeply felt and knowledgeable, and I hope that we will hear much more from her in the House over the coming weeks and months.

I want to reflect in the short time allowed on the vital importance of our membership of the European Union to our environmental protection, stewardship and improvement. Some two and a half months ago I stepped down as chairman of the Environment Agency here in England. It is responsible for overseeing much of the framework of environmental standards and protection that we have. Overwhelmingly, that framework rests on a series of European directives that drive better performance, endeavour to keep standards high, and have largely been responsible for the improvements we have seen in our environment here in the United Kingdom over recent years. Quite frankly, we would be lost without them. It would be little short of an environmental catastrophe if, heaven forbid, we were to leave the European Union.

Of course, not all European directives are perfect. Would I have drawn up the rules governing nitrate-vulnerable zones in precisely the way that has happened if I had been seeking a truly common-sense approach to a worthwhile purpose? Of course not. There is certainly scope for improvement—but, taken as a whole, the range of environmental directives in place are powerful tools to enable real benefits to be achieved for people. Safeguarding the environment is, after all, every bit as much about people as it is about birds and insects and fish. It is about the air we breathe, the land we live on and the water we depend on for life.

I will take just three examples: first, the industrial emissions directive. It is no accident that over the last 20 years sulphur dioxide emissions in this country have fallen by 70%. Nitrogen oxide emissions are down by nearly 40%. Even particulates, where we have made less progress, are down by 15%. These are real benefits and real improvements that have been brought about by sensible regulation that has driven better technology.

Secondly, the transfrontier shipment of waste directive has made it far more difficult for us to dump our waste, especially our electrical and electronic waste, on the developing world, where all too often in the past it fuelled crime, poverty, exploitation and injury. These are sensible rules applied across Europe and they matter globally because it is Europe that has put them in place.

Thirdly, the bathing water directives. Thirty years ago we were labelled as the dirty man of Europe. Beach after beach on many of the most popular parts of our coast were failing European standards because of raw sewage being discharged on frequent occasions. The directives have driven change. They have forced clean-up and have now delivered the cleanest beaches and bathing water we have had in decades. As a result, they have helped both public health and the tourism industry. So when people rail against interference from Europe, this—I would remind them—is interference that we have signed up to; it is interference that we have helped to put in place; and, in the case of this range of environmental directives, these are bits of interference from which we have substantially benefited.

Surely it makes sense to tackle these issues on an international, continent-wide basis. After all, the environment knows no national boundaries. Pollution of the air and water does not stop at the frontier. These are continent-wide issues and they require continent-wide responses. Thank goodness we have the structures in place and our membership of the European Union in place to enable that to happen.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, for the benefit of the House I remind noble Lords that we have a lot of speakers and that when the clock is at five that is time up. Even if all noble Lords from now on were to speak for just half a minute beyond five minutes, that would mean not only that my noble friend would not have her full time to respond to the debate, but the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, would have no time to respond, either.

Ukraine

Lord Newby Excerpts

Thursday 27th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until not before 1 o’clock, to enable those of us who wish to do so to make our way to the Royal Gallery to hear an address from the Chancellor of Germany. All Members of the House are welcome to attend and I encourage them to do so.

EU: Recent Developments

Lord Newby Excerpts

Thursday 16th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, like other noble Lords, I will concentrate my remarks on recent economic developments, particularly on growth. Although the EU is doing many other important things—on climate change, as the noble Lord, Lord Jay, pointed out, or in terms of social measures, as the noble Lord, Lord Monks, has just pointed out—economics has always been at the core of the EU. The extent to which the EU will be seen to succeed or fail will be the extent to which, over the longer term, it has been seen to deliver growth to its populations.

It has been tempting for me to follow a number of noble Lords this afternoon in discussing the twists and turns of the euro crisis, not least because, as Moody’s reiterated on Monday, the biggest single short-term threat to growth in the UK is a failure of the EU to solve that crisis. However, I will resist the temptation because, at the end of the day, nobody within the eurozone is listening to what anybody in the UK is saying about the future of the eurozone. They do not need to listen because we have no lean on them. They have enough on their plate trying to resolve the conflicting pressures that they find themselves under, both domestically and within the eurozone. My only advice on this to the Government, and to the Prime Minister in particular, is that, having succeeded in annoying everybody by the way he behaved with the veto in December, he should not make things worse by publically lecturing the rest of the eurozone on the need for them to sort themselves out as though they were naughty schoolboys and girls, as he did in Davos. It may play well back here, but it has zero impact on what is actually going to happen and merely serves to build up a stock of resentment against the UK which will inevitably reduce our ability to promote our interests on non-eurozone issues.

I strongly agreed with the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, when he said that the gravitational pull towards the eurozone and the development of its institutions will be at a cost to Britain’s position and influence. That is the long-term position in which we find ourselves, whichever party or parties are in government. For the foreseeable future, the UK must accommodate itself to being outside the mainstream of those discussions. The irony, of course, is that our deficit reduction programme is exactly the kind of thing that the Germans and other north European countries wish to see for the rest of the eurozone. On macroeconomic policy, we are squarely in the middle of that thinking in the EU. That helps to explain why we are far from being the pariah that some of the headlines, particularly in December, have suggested. The challenge and opportunity for the Government for the remainder of this Parliament is how to use the commonality of interest which exists across much of the economic agenda to our best advantage—mainly via the mechanisms of developing the single market and on trade. If we are going to have greater engagement, it will be in those areas that we exercise it, rather than in discussions about the detailed management of the eurozone.

One of the more tangible ways in which this has been happening in recent months is via the so-called “like-minded growth group”, which was established by my colleague Ed Davey while he was at BIS. Launched in the middle of 2011, it initially had 14 members and was later joined by two more, including Germany. Interestingly, of the 16, eight were “euro-ins” and eight were “euro-outs”. The purpose of the group is to agree joint priorities and strategies for delivering core job and growth priorities linked to the development of the single market. Recent months have seen developments which have strengthened this group further. The Italian Government, who were frankly having none of it in their previous incarnation, have, with the advent of Mario Monti, become great enthusiasts for developing the social market. The new Government in Spain are taking a similarly positive view, as are the Government of Romania. You therefore now have a big majority of people and Governments who are prepared to put real impetus behind a positive single market agenda.

Many of the detailed measures under discussion are, of course, extremely arcane, but they all have the potential to increase trade within the EU and therefore promote growth. Some of these issues, like the immensely vexed question of the EU patent, are nearly concluded. One can only hope that, the intellectual problems having been resolved, the practical issue of where the headquarters of the patent court are located does not lead to another decade of delay in sorting this out. Other measures, such as the development of a digital single market, or on the mutual recognition of the myriad professional qualifications, have some way to go, but there is new impetus behind them. Of all of them, here, for many firms, the proposals from the Commission to simplify the EU public procurement rules will be welcome, particularly for SMEs. I would welcome anything that the Minister could, in winding up, say about progress on that matter.

While the single market is going to help to encourage growth via internal trade, the other area that we must put more emphasis on is that of measures to improve external trade. The noble Lord, Lord Lamont, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford referred to Sir Thomas More. Five hundred years ago, Thomas More was sent to Bruges by Henry VIII to conclude a new trade agreement on wool. When he got there, he found that the French were meddling with a new domestic Administration. Problems were so difficult that it took six months before he was able to get anything approaching an agreement. Like all good intellectuals, he did not waste the time and used it to write Utopia. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, in the longueur of his time in Brussels as trade commissioner, was similarly penning his chef d’oeuvre but, if so, we very much look forward to seeing it.

Trade has been largely forgotten in recent months. We know that the Doha process has completely run into the sand. However, there are major initiatives ahead—some concluded, as in South Korea, and others under way, as with the EU/India summit this weekend. There are others that are small but potentially immensely significant for the countries involved; for example, the WTO’s agreement this week to preferential trade agreements with Pakistan, a country which needs all the help it can get. It will get it, in part, through having a more resilient economy, driven by trade.

The single market and trade progress slowly. The work is hard and unglamorous. But it is by taking a leading part in areas such as these that the UK, the euro notwithstanding, will remain fully engaged in the EU, to the tremendous benefit of both the UK and the EU as a whole.

European Council Decision: EUC Report

Lord Newby Excerpts

Monday 21st March 2011 Lords Chamber

To conclude, I submit that it is really not in this country’s interest to prop up the euro. The quicker it disintegrates the better, with countries that cannot afford to be part of it going back to their national currencies. Only then will they be able to start trading their way out of the colossal debts into which the euro and the project of European integration have led them. Mr Van Rompuy has just said that the EU will collapse if the euro fails. I fear he may be wrong and that the juggernaut of European integration could continue without the euro and would indeed do so, but if he turns out to be right, what a pleasant prospect greets us: no Commission, no Committee of Permanent Representatives, no Council of Ministers, no European Court of so-called Justice, no EU Parliament, none of the colossal fraud, waste and overregulation which weigh us down at home and in our competition and trade with the rest of the world. We would be left with a Europe of democratic nations freely trading and collaborating. It is to those sunlit uplands that the Government should be leading this country and the rest of Europe. That is where the national interest lies, not in this grubby instrument of doubtful legality.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, it is always a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, because I always think that debates in your Lordships' House are much better when we are not all agreeing with each other. He wants the euro to fail. We on these Benches want it to succeed, and therefore we support the Motion before us this evening. Without having a huge discussion on the history of the euro, it is perhaps worth reminding ourselves that the euro has survived the worst financial crisis certainly in our lifetimes, and has survived many naysayers over the past two or three years who very confidently and regularly predicted that it was about to collapse. It is quite clear that the euro is not going to collapse and that the eurozone is going to continue. Indeed, it is likely to be strengthened as a result of the decisions which are currently being finalised.

It is one of the long-standing features of our view of the EU and the euro that at every point they were about to collapse and, indeed, that the European venture was about to stall, and at every point it has moved forward in its peculiar but almost inevitable way. There was a typical example of this attitude just last week when the FT, reporting on the eurozone summit on this mechanism, had as its headline “Leaders cut surprise deal on key reforms”. The history of European development has been leaders predictably cutting surprise deals when nearing a deadline, which is exactly what has happened here.

I do not intend to attempt to dissect the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, in great detail, but I point out to him that member states are not donating anything to anyone via this mechanism. The Irish are paying 6 per cent on these loans and are grumbling mightily about them, so just as the British Government are getting a good return on the loans that they are making, member states that are making loans under this mechanism will be getting a pretty good return.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I did not suggest that this Government were donating to any other member state through this mechanism; I merely pointed out that we donate generally to the coffers of the European Union—to the tune this year of £17.6 billion gross and £8.3 billion net. That is net cash that we are sending to Brussels and that goes down the drain there—a figure, I might say, that we are struggling to cut from our own public expenditure.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord. I misheard him. I distinctly wrote down that he said that a donation was involved in this process.

My one question to the Minister springs from my concern about the way in which the eurozone is developing, which is simply that the UK’s role in relation to it is extremely strange. We are obviously not part of it, so we are not in many of the meetings. Yet from time to time we are allowed to have a say. What worries me is that with the passage of time that say gets less and less over a whole raft of economic decisions across the EU. In the current exercise, we were allowed to help in the design of the ESM, which presumably means that Treasury officials went to meetings to talk about how it was going to work. What worries me is that, once it is established, those Treasury officials will be told that they have been extremely helpful, that their advice has been most valuable and that they can now go back to London and let the rest of the eurozone implement the policy. As the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, has pointed out, there are a whole raft of secondary consequences for the competitiveness pact, which will undoubtedly have an impact on the UK and on which, as far as I understand it, we will have no say at all in the future.

Will the Minister explain whether, once the ESM is established, there will be any further role for the UK Government and their officials in the design of the conditions that might be required or suggested from time to time to apply in particular cases when member states are being bailed out? These changes could be extremely worrying, not necessarily because they or the conditions are bad in themselves but because, although we are affected by them, we will have had no say in the way in which they are put together.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I suppose I could just say that I agree with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, has said and sit down, but I will not do that.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Howell, for explaining very complicated legislation to us. I think I understand it a bit better now that he has explained it. Nevertheless, I believe that it is a serious matter that we are discussing. I think I am right in saying that, during debates on the Lisbon treaty, the then Official Opposition considered Article 48(6)to be an unnecessary and perhaps dangerous measure that could be used to extend European Union power without proper parliamentary scrutiny. I feel that that was their position at the time. Now, even though they have been in power for only 10 months, they are using this provision to extend the power of the eurozone. I do not know what has happened. Perhaps the Liberal part of the coalition is having more influence than it should.

There has not been an IGC, which has been pointed out already. The Motion received only one and a half hour’s debate in the House of Commons and a dinner hour debate in this House. We are not really having the sort of discussion that we should have before the Prime Minister goes to Europe to make a decision. It may be that we will have further discussions in due course but this Motion is to give the Prime Minister the power to act under Article 48(6). It is the first time that that has been done and it is therefore a serious matter. Although we are not at present members of the eurozone and ESM will not affect us, it will nevertheless become part of the European Union’s powers across the board. If this country should join the eurozone, this provision would automatically apply to us. That surely is right. If it is not right, perhaps the noble Lord will say that it is not right and why it is not right.

Furthermore, this first use of the simplified revision procedures is likely to be the thin end of the wedge. This will not be the first time that it will be used. Once a provision is used, it sets a precedent and it will be much easier to use it on other occasions in the future. It is claimed that when the European Union Bill, which we will discuss tomorrow, becomes law, it will prevent Article 48(6) from being misused. But can we be certain of that? Will the noble Lord say that there will never be any conditions under which Article 48(6) cannot be used without parliamentary procedure or perhaps even a referendum? Since the measure has to be agreed by a unanimous vote, the United Kingdom at present has a veto.

During the election, the Conservatives said that they wanted to repatriate to this country a range of measures which they believed were inimical to the best interests of the United Kingdom. Why then are the Government not using this factor—the fact that they have a veto over this provision being discussed tonight—to renegotiate parts of the treaties which are inimical to British interests, especially those relating to industry and commerce? I am also puzzled as to why the eurozone nations cannot agree a system of control that does not involve a treaty change. Is it perhaps because Germany wishes to use this procedure to strengthen its position as leader of the European Union?

The Government state that maintaining the eurozone as a stable and fully functioning entity is in the United Kingdom’s interest and the European Union Committee endorses that view. I do not believe that that is necessarily so. I am not at all sure that the eurozone is necessary for this country to prosper. Indeed, I could probably, if there was time, produce an argument to show that the eurozone works against this country’s interests. It should be no part of this country’s policy to maintain the eurozone in being no matter what the circumstances are.

Let us not forget that the experience of the eurozone so far has not been a happy one. At least four of its members are in dire financial and economic trouble, needing massive tranches—that is what this debate is about—of bail-out money. Interest rates in the eurozone have been kept at an artificially high rate, thus resulting in lower growth in many of its member states and very high unemployment. That is something this country should deplore, wherever it occurs.

Being in the eurozone does not affect our trade in the way that the Minister outlined. The fact is that we are in Europe and we are part of the single market, and whether the eurozone exists or not, the single market will still be there, as it was there before we joined the eurozone. What I believe is that being within the European Union and within the single market in fact damages our ability to export to the much wider world than the European Union represents. Already we see the Chinese and the Indians making great inroads into markets in Africa and elsewhere which, untrammelled by the European Union, this country could be exploiting. I have some doubts about this measure, although I suppose it is going to go through. But I hope that the assurances which have been given by the Minister will be carried out.