Covid-19: Scientific Advice
Lord True Excerpts(3 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Scriven
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what specific action they took to address COVID-19 as a result of the meeting of the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies on 11 February.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con) [V]
My Lords, on 11 February, SAGE advised that the reasonable worst-case scenario for the coronavirus pandemic should continue to reflect influenza planning assumptions. In the light of this, the Government continued to prepare for and mitigate the worst excesses of the reasonable worst-case scenario. This included holding a number of COBRA meetings and increasing activity in a number of areas, including excess deaths planning, developing options for a surge of care staff and further developing legislative options.
Lord Scriven (LD) [V]
The SPI-M consensus statement to that meeting says:
“It is a realistic probability that there is already sustained transmission in the UK, or that it will … become established in the coming weeks.”
Why did the Government not act on this scientific knowledge? Two weeks later, care homes received government advice stating that
“there is currently no transmission of COVID-19 in the community. It is therefore very unlikely that anyone receiving care in a care home … will become infected.”
Lord True [V]
My Lords, it is important to remind the House that at the time of the meeting on 11 February there were only eight confirmed cases in the United Kingdom. The Government have always been guided by the best scientific advice. At every stage, scientists have sought to give us the best information about what was a very novel infection—it still is. Ministers and officials tried to take the right decisions in the public interest. We will come out of this best by holding to the sense of national interest and resolve with which we went into it and holding any inquests when the pandemic is beaten.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]
My Lords, despite saying in January that diagnosis capacity was good, by 11 February SAGE said that it was not and—erroneously, as it turned out—that it would not be possible for the UK to accelerate coronavirus testing alongside regular flu testing. Rather than focusing on how to boost it, it asked PHE and SPI-M to develop criteria for when contact tracing is no longer worthwhile and for when it could be stopped. Were the criteria developed and approved by Ministers before contact tracing was stopped, and why were the Government so slow to reverse that flawed decision?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, I could not catch all the details of the noble Lord’s question. I apologise on the record to him for not answering fully a previous question he asked. If he does not mind, I will write to him on the subject. I remind the House, having caught enough of his question, that this was an evolving crisis and the Government have done a great deal to procure and deliver testing—now over 200,000 a day—and provide places in hospital beds.
Baroness Wheatcroft (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, a SAGE paper of 11 February made it clear that stopping large gatherings and, more particularly, the closure of pubs, nightclubs and similar venues would slow the spread of the infection. That did not happen for more than another six weeks. Can the noble Lord tell the House whether that advice was not acted on immediately as a result of putting it before focus groups? Can he say how many elements of SAGE advice have been subject to focus groups before being adopted, or not adopted?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, I cannot answer on focus groups; the focus group I care about is Parliament and responding to it. The advice from SPI-M-O on public gatherings was actually rather more equivocal than the noble Baroness suggests. However, the policy evolved and many of those who follow the public press conferences will remember the Deputy Chief Medical Officer talking about a number of the different factors involved. It is important to recall what stage of the crisis we are talking about: 11 February, when there were eight confirmed cases.
Lord Pickles (Con) [V]
My Lords, even after many months we still do not know everything that we should about this virus. Is it not wholly unreasonable to criticise members of the scientific committee for offering advice that was true to the best of their ability at the time? Does this not underline that, ultimately, it is Ministers who will have to make decisions regarding the lifting of various measures, and that while they should take the advice of the scientific community in doing so, it is ultimately their responsibility?
Lord True [V]
I strongly agree with my noble friend, who has great experience as a Minister and a distinguished career. Of course, responsibility ultimately lies with Ministers for taking decisions. Ministers wrestle with those difficult decisions every day. On balance, I believe that Ministers have done their very best to serve the people of this country in this unprecedented crisis. The time for reviews is when the curtain comes down, not when we are still fighting the drama.
Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]
In the week after the SAGE meeting that my noble friend Lord Scriven and the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, referred to, SAGE met again, on 20 February. The SPI-M report on community transmission, dated 17 February, that was presented at that meeting states at paragraph 16:
“Some believe … that there may already be sustained transmission.”
However, government guidance on 25 February for care homes states:
“There is no need to do anything differently in any care setting at present.”
Why were care homes still being advised that there was little likelihood of infection?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, with the greatest respect, I am answering a Question about the SAGE meeting on 11 February. If Members wish to ask questions about further stages, I will have to reply to them in writing.
Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con) [V]
My Lords, the Science and Technology Committee, on which I sit, has received a very sensible suggestion in evidence to our Covid-19 inquiry. It proposes establishing a working protocol for SAGE to clarify the relationship between scientific advice and political decisions, and to improve transparency of processes. It is modelled on the already effective protocols of ACMD and the investigatory powers committee. Does the Minister agree that this could be a sensible step forward? Would he meet the distinguished scientist who proposed it?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, my noble friend makes a very valuable suggestion. I will make sure that it is drawn to the attention of my colleagues progressing this matter.
Baroness Meacher (CB) [V]
My Lords, Professor Jeff Sachs, in his powerful analysis of countries’ responses to Covid-19, concludes that the Asia-Pacific region has been successful in controlling Covid using low-cost solutions: facemasks, physical distancing and test and trace. Germany used test and trace immediately after one case was identified—not eight—and use of facemasks shot up in April. Germany has been the great success story of Europe. Can the Minister tell the House whether the SAGE meeting on 11 February discussed the actions being taken in the Asia-Pacific region? I fear not, but can the Minister now assure us that the Government will give proper priority to the availability of facemasks in every high street and station so that they become the norm in this country, as in the Asia-Pacific region?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, the SAGE meeting on 11 February certainly asked the Foreign Office to secure information from heads of mission around the world. The Government are committed to continuing to fight this ongoing crisis, but again, the situation is evolving, knowledge is evolving and hindsight is a wonderful thing. I believe that we should focus on the task in hand of defeating the virus, learning the best we can as we go and then evaluating performance in peacetime, not in the middle of the war.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I have never before heard a Minister refuse to answer a question that was not specifically based on the actual wording of the Oral Question. I hope we do not hear that again. The Government have acted too slowly, too late and with no exit strategy. For example, planning for a phased return should have started from the day schools closed. From those very first deaths, it was clear that extra precautions should have been taken to protect BAME staff. Will the Government not do what they Minister says and wait until this is all over to admit their mistakes, but look at them now so that they can learn the lessons and take the right decisions in future, rather than pretending that nothing went wrong in the past?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, the noble Baroness does not characterise correctly even what I said in reply to the last question. I said that we must learn as we go. Lessons are being learned. Indeed, yesterday, there was the remarkable news of a drug that would help in therapeutics. That is a piece of learning. Actions are adapted as learning progresses. However, I repeat that any inquiry into past events is best conducted ex post facto, not while the crisis is continuing; learning, yes, recrimination, no.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Alderdice) (LD)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.
Constitution, Democracy and Rights Commission
Lord True Excerpts(3 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Whitaker
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what will be (1) the terms of reference, and (2) the appointment process, for the constitution, democracy and rights commission.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
My Lords, the commission will examine the broader aspects of the constitution in depth and develop proposals to restore trust in our institutions and in how our democracy operates. Careful consideration of the scope of the commission is required, and further announcements will be made in due course.
Baroness Whitaker (Lab) [V]
Events have moved on since this commission was first announced. How will its remit and membership take account of the rights of black and minority ethnic marginalised and poor people, as well as the citizen’s right to a clean and sustainable environment?
Lord True
My Lords, the commission was promised in the Conservative manifesto last December. Since then, we have had the Covid crisis. As I said, further announcements about the commission will be made in due course, but I have no doubt that it will be able to take into account all events anterior to its creation.
Lord Strathclyde (Con) [V]
My Lords, when my noble friend the Minister is discussing the terms of reference for this commission, will he also consider the case for examining political interference by the judiciary, and for looking at the provisions of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 and the possibility of the role of Lord Chancellor returning to this House permanently?
Lord True
My Lords, I cannot anticipate the scope of the commission at this point. Of course, like my noble friend, I well remember the appalling events when the Lord Chancellor’s office was abolished by a press release from No. 10. I assure noble Lords that the commission will be proceeded with in a more thoughtful and sensitive fashion.
Lord Kilclooney (CB)
My Lords, considering the increased indifference among some English Conservatives towards Scotland and Northern Ireland, can the Minister confirm that representatives from Scotland and Northern Ireland will be on the commission, who would ensure the future of the United Kingdom?
Lord True
My Lords, as I have said, I am afraid that I cannot respond in detail prior to the announcements of the scope, composition and focus of the commission. However, the noble Lord makes a vital point about our union, the preservation of which is fundamental to the objectives of the Government.
Lord Maxton (Lab) [V]
My Lords, can the Minister confirm that the commission will cover all aspects of the constitution, including that most basic of all: how we vote in both local and general elections? If, as I hope it will, the commission advises that it will go for electronic voting with an ID card which has built into it either a fingerprint or facial recognition so that there can be no cheating, will the Government implement the commission’s proposal?
Lord True
My Lords, again, I cannot anticipate the composition and focus of the commission. However, I can say to the noble Lord that the Government have already presented legislation on boundaries, which is before the other place at the moment, and we have also signified that we will look at matters relating to the conduct of elections.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]
My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s statement that the Government are taking very careful consideration of the agenda. There is a great deal of expertise on constitutional and political issues in this Chamber. Will the Minister commit to a Lords debate on the agenda and terms of reference of the constitutional commission, either before the summer or at least in our September Session, to inform the process of consideration?
Lord Wigley (PC) [V]
My Lords, I wish to press the Minister further on the relationship between the devolved Administrations and Westminster. If the terms of reference include looking at this interrelationship, as they most certainly should, can he guarantee, or at least press the Government to ensure, that voices from Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast are on both sides of the argument —with regard to the nationalist community in the three countries—as a central part of the commission to ensure that it has credibility in those three nations?
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con) [V]
My Lords, further to the question put by my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, will the proposed commission look at the relationship between the Supreme Court and Parliament? If so, will it look in particular at the recent controversial court judgment on interim custody orders in Northern Ireland and exactly who signed them back in the 1970s, given that the judgment seemed to ignore completely the clear wishes and intentions of Parliament, to misunderstand the normal workings of ministerial and departmental government and to take no account of the practicalities of direct rule administration in Belfast at the time?
Lord True
My Lords, my noble friend has great and direct experience of this issue. Obviously, the Government will look closely at the outcome of that judgment. I regret that, as far as the commission is concerned, I cannot add anything to my prior answers on its scope and composition. I assure the noble Lord that the Government will proceed with care and consideration.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]
My Lords, I am sure that the Minister is aware of the YouGov survey conducted last month, which showed that less than half of people said that the Government are “relatively trustworthy” or better. If we look around the world, to countries such as Germany, New Zealand and Iceland, levels of trust are high. That suggests that the underlying problem may be our system of an uncodified, opaque and unwritten constitution. Will the terms of reference consider why our system is trusted so little by the people?
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I appreciate that the Minister cannot tell us what is already going on but I wonder whether he could use his good offices—we know that he has a lot of influence—to ensure that, if the commission is to restore or enhance public confidence, it is taken forward on a cross-party basis and with a focus on excluded or disenfranchised groups, particularly BME groups, as we have heard, as well as the charity sector and civil society. Unless we all have confidence in the process, we will not have confidence in the outcome. Can the Minister assure us that he will use his influence to put the views he has heard today to those who are drawing up the terms of reference and membership?
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD) [V]
Given the stress of the combined impact of Brexit and Covid-19 on the devolution settlements, may I urge the Government to consider how a federal constitution could share fairly the powers, resources and decision-making allocated to and shared between the devolved Administrations and local authorities?
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the damaging impact of the retrospective application of the Human Rights Act on legacy cases in Northern Ireland, particularly in respect of former members of the Armed Forces and the police? Could the commission consider legislating to limit the scope of that Act?
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Bates) (Con)
My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked so we will move on to the next Question. I will allow a few moments for the Front-Bench teams to change places.
Manifesto Commitments
Lord True Excerpts(3 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Young of Cookham
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review their manifesto commitments as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
My Lords, the coronavirus pandemic is an unprecedented crisis. The Government have rightly focused on providing stability and support to the people, families and organisations most affected by the outbreak. However, as the Prime Minister confirmed at the end of May in his evidence to the Liaison Committee in another place, this Government are still fully committed to meeting all commitments made in the 2019 manifesto.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con) [V]
I am very grateful to my noble friend for that reply, but one of the commitments in the manifesto said:
“We will not borrow to fund day-to-day spending”.
Another promised that the national debt
“will be lower at the end of the Parliament”.
Sticking to these commitments in circumstances that no one could have foreseen, as my noble friend just said, would prevent the Government continuing on their commendable path of doing what it takes to mitigate the recession. Will my noble friend encourage the Prime Minister to modify that statement?
Lord True
My Lords, my noble friend recognises that we are living through un unprecedented crisis at the moment but, as he will well know, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said that later this year there will be a Budget Statement, which will address a number of the concerns raised by my noble friend.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]
My Lords, another manifesto promise was for
“a long-term solution for social care”,
but we have been here before. Last July the Prime Minister, standing on the steps of Downing Street, said he had prepared “a clear plan” to
“fix the crisis in social care”,
but nothing happened, and the palpable neglect of the care sector during the current crisis has been all too evident. Where is the plan that the Prime Minister had so carefully prepared last summer, and how is it to be financed?
Lord True
My Lords, on social care, the noble Lord himself has a long and distinguished record as a health Minister. He will know that discussions about and consideration of this vital question have been going on for many years. I assure him that the question of long-term social care remains at the heart of the Government’s objectives.
Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, in February this year my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws launched in Parliament a report called Empowered Employment: Unlocking the Workplace for Muslim Women. With support from Oxford, Yale and SOAS universities, Dr Suriyah Bi surveyed 500 women at work, 84% of whom were highly qualified. They nevertheless face barriers to progression, including discrimination, Islamo- phobia and challenges from families and partners. In the light of the emerging information on socioeconomic disparities, in particular among Bangladeshi women, will the Minister say whether the Government will consider the economic empowerment of Muslim women in any reviews of their manifesto commitments?
Lord True
My Lords, the noble Baroness makes powerful points. The Government campaigned on commitments to tackle prejudice, racism and discrimination of all sorts and to improve the quality of evidence and data about the types of barriers faced by all people from different backgrounds, to help drive effective and lasting change. I undertake to the noble Baroness that this will remain an important and central aspect of the Government’s work.
Baroness Eaton (Con) [V]
My Lords, the manifesto committed Her Majesty’s Government to a review of children’s social care. In a Written Statement in February, the Secretary of State said it would be independent, broad, bold and undertaken at the earliest opportunity. Given the significant additional pressures faced by the vast majority of families and social workers during Covid-19 restrictions, this review is needed now more than ever. Can my noble friend the Minister confirm that its terms of reference, independent chair and launch will be announced soon?
Lord True
My Lords, I regret that the timetable of some government action has obviously been interfered with by the Covid emergency, but I think all noble Lords will agree that there is a vital social need to ensure that all sectors of society are protected during the Covid crisis. I repeat what my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said recently: the Government currently intend to proceed with all their manifesto commitments.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD) [V]
My Lords, in April the Government said that in the light of the pandemic they were reviewing the development of the manifesto commitment to establish a national strategy for disabled people. Disabled people badly need some good news. Can the Minister give us some about the strategy?
Lord Balfe (Con) [V]
My Lords, the world has changed enormously since the election. The Conservative Party held power for two-thirds of the last century. John Maynard Keynes is reported to have said: “When the facts change, I change my mind.” Will the Government continue to support the working-class and trade union votes that got them into power through most of the last century and, when they adapt their policies, as they must, bear in mind the need for trade union and working-class people to continue—I stress the word “continue”—their support for the Government?
Lord True
My Lords, the Government intend to be and are a Government for all people and respect every person in this country, not only the many who—as my noble friend rightly said—voted for them. The Government have made a major change in the face of the Covid crisis in giving unprecedented help to people at disadvantage. That in itself is a manifest of this Government’s intent and spirit.
Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB) [V]
My Lords, I follow up and reinforce the point made in the pertinent question from the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, and the Minister’s answer. Can the Minister please give an undertaking that during the review of the care system, careful attention will be paid to some of the innovative approaches that have evolved directly as a result of the lockdown and ensure that these are built into that review?
Lord Livermore (Lab) [V]
My Lords, to follow on from the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, in addition to promising not to
“borrow to fund day-to-day spending”,
the Government’s manifesto promised not to
“raise the rate of income tax, VAT or National Insurance”,
not to increase any taxes on small businesses and to “keep the triple lock” on pensions. Is the Minister able to guarantee that these commitments remain unchanged in light of the Covid-19 pandemic?
Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]
My Lords, even at the time of the general election, the haulage industry was seriously worried about the additional bureaucracy that a potential no-deal Brexit would bring. It has now suffered the crisis of the pandemic, and the Government are no nearer to getting a deal. Does the Minister accept that our haulage industry will not be able to cope with any further challenges this year? Do the Government accept that the transition period needs to be extended, as the haulage industry has requested?
Lord True
I pay tribute to the haulage industry; it has been an outstanding performer, and not just in this crisis. However, the answer to the noble Baroness’s question is no. The transition period will not be extended. That has been accepted by the European Union, and I suggest it is about time that it was accepted by your Lordships’ House.
Viscount Waverley (CB) [V]
My Lords, I have listened carefully to the Minister’s responses, but would it not be prudent, at this time of unprecedented national and international uncertainty, for the Government to adapt to these new circumstances, or are they to follow an end game, irrespective of the consequences? How can the repeatedly professed line of seeking a deep and special relationship with the EU, on the one hand, be reconciled with walking away from negotiations, on the other—and that is before a probable downgrading in relations and a global trade war with China, together with an untested strategic trade relationship with individual Commonwealth members?
Lord True
My Lords, we have moved slightly away from the manifesto. I do not know whether the noble Viscount saw the very friendly discussions yesterday between the Prime Minister and representatives of the Commission. There is a commitment on both sides to intensify negotiations to produce a satisfactory outcome. I remain confident that that is possible.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Bates) (Con)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011
Lord True Excerpts(3 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Norton of Louth
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they will announce the membership of the committee to review the provisions of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 as provided for by section 7 of the Act.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con) [V]
My Lords, under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act, the Prime Minister is required, between June and November 2020, to make arrangements for a committee to undertake a review of the operation of the Act. Announcements about arrangements for such a committee will be made in due course.
Lord Norton of Louth (Con) [V]
Given that the Government have a manifesto commitment to remove the Fixed-term Parliaments Act from the statute book, as indeed do the Opposition, and given that one has to put something in its place because the old arrangements are not automatically resuscitated, do the Government agree that the committee that has to be set up on the Act is an ideal vehicle for generating—quickly—a replacement measure to enable the Government potentially to legislate by next year?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, my noble friend is an outstanding authority on these matters, and I am sure that all contributions from him will be heard on all sides of the House. He is quite right to say that the Government made a commitment in their manifesto to repeal the Act. However, I can only repeat that detailed announcements about how we will proceed will come in due course.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, I served on the Constitution Committee during the passage of the then Bill. We heard extensively about the many concerns regarding it, which eventually came to pass during 2017-19. If ever a demonstration was needed that the Act is unsuited to our constitution, the last few years provided it. Can the Minister therefore please press for the review to be announced as soon as possible so that we have the legislative time to pass the necessary legislation to do away with it?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, the Government remain absolutely committed to replacing the Act, and I totally agree with the noble Baroness about its impact. We all lived those days, months and years, and we do not wish to see a recurrence.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con) [V]
My Lords, this Act has clearly served Parliament badly but I worry that we are getting too many reviews and commissions confused together. Bearing in mind that many other parliaments around the world have a fixed term and that we are in a completely new age from the point of view of the electorate, who are now digitally empowered, is not the length of parliamentary Sessions a prime subject for the constitutional commission? Should not the review of the workings of this Act somehow be worked into the commission, where we will look closely at the effectiveness and functioning of Parliament, which has not been too good in the past and where people are now looking for a very much more effective and stronger performance?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, again, my noble friend makes important points. It is certainly the Government’s intention to improve electoral procedures—separate announcements have been made on that—but Section 7 of the Act lays specific duties on the Prime Minister, and the Government must observe the law of the land.
Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab) [V]
The Political and Constitutional Reform Committee’s report in September 2010 on the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill received evidence that the Bill had been prepared on an extraordinarily rushed timetable and introduced with no prior consultation and no Green or White Paper; nor had time been allowed for pre-legislative scrutiny. The committee’s concerns were entirely justified. We cannot go on making quick-fix changes to resolve short-term political problems. Does the Minister agree that we need a thorough overhaul of our constitution, particularly on the role of the nations and regions in the post-EU United Kingdom?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, in their manifesto, the Government emphasised the need for long-term consideration of our constitutional arrangements, as my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford said. The noble Baroness is correct that this should not be hurried. The Government will bring forward their proposals on how we should proceed in due course.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]
My Lords, in the last few years, there has been a great deal of discussion, particularly from within the Conservative Party, about the need to strengthen the principle of parliamentary sovereignty. If we abolish the Fixed-term Parliaments Act, we will go back to a substantial role for executive sovereignty in the UK. Does the Minister accept that we cannot go backwards by abolishing the Act and that we need to strengthen Parliament’s role in organising its own meetings, terms, Prorogation and Dissolution?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, as I said, many matters will be considered and we will make further announcements in due course. I think the noble Lord would agree that Parliament did not have its finest hour under the aegis of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act. That is why, partly to restore Parliament’s reputation, we need clear arrangements that command support.
Lord Hayward (Con)
My Lords, I want to comment on my noble friend’s constant references to “in due course”. The Parliamentary Constituencies Bill, already under consideration in the Commons, is affected by any changes to the Fixed-term Parliaments Act; and the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, is chairing a committee in this House giving consideration to electoral legislation, which will also be affected by any such changes. I ask my noble friend to expedite both the commission’s implementation and its completion.
Lord True [V]
My Lords, my noble friend refers to important legislation relating to modes of election. We are talking here about the timing of elections. I assure him that the Government remain completely committed to implementing their manifesto proposal on this Act.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
It is a rather misnamed Act—is it not?—because the Fixed-term Parliaments Act actually allows for two unscheduled elections at the time of the Government’s choosing. I hope that, as the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, said, we can move with some speed on this. Will the Minister ensure that representatives of the regions and the nations—perhaps also of the Opposition—are included on this committee? It is too serious an issue to leave to just a handful of Government-appointed people.
Lord True [V]
My Lords, I note what the noble Baroness says, as always, but I regret that I cannot go further today than to say that we will make detailed announcements on this matter in due course.
Baroness Pidding (Con) [V]
My Lords, if I recall correctly, we were told by our Liberal Democrat colleagues in 2011 that the purpose of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act was to provide stability. The Act did that under the coalition Government but it has been nothing but problematic ever since. The Act should have included a sunset clause. With that in mind, does my noble friend the Minister agree that now is the time to return to the usual method and that tinkering with the constitution without proper checks and balances can have the exact opposite result to that of stable government?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. On the details, I must ask again for the House’s patience. She is quite right to say that the Act was born in unusual circumstances: it was part of a doubleton with plans for proportional representation, which the Liberal Democrat party hoped at the time would enable it to hold the ring in Parliament and change horses whenever it wished.
Lord Tyler (LD) [V]
My Lords, if enabling the Prime Minister to dissolve Parliament at a time to suit his or her party is put on the statute book, it will start to codify the royal prerogative. Is that what the Government intend?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, again, the noble Lord tempts me to go ahead of where we are now. I do not agree with the idea advanced by a number of noble Lords that, axiomatically, the Prime Minister’s power to dissolve works in that Prime Minister’s interest; for example, it did not do so for Mr Heath in February 1974.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op) [V]
My Lords, returning to the membership of the committee, the Act states:
“A majority of the members of the committee are to be members of the House of Commons.”
I support my noble friend Lady Hayter in saying that those Members should represent the different parts of the United Kingdom, but can the Minister confirm that Members from this House of Parliament will also be on the committee?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, again, I cannot anticipate the announcements that the Government will make. The noble Lord is quite right, as always: the Act stipulates that the majority on the committee should be Members of the House of Commons, but it says nothing about the others.
The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.
Covid-19: UK-wide Discussions
Lord True Excerpts(3 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Governments to coordinate a United Kingdom-wide approach to relaxing the restrictions in place to address the COVID-19 pandemic.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con) [V]
My Lords, the UK Government have worked closely with the devolved Administrations throughout this crisis. There have been discussions between Ministers and officials, and this engagement will continue. [Inaudible.] Citizens in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should follow the equivalent guidelines issued by their respective Administrations.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)
My Lords, the diversity of decision-making between the four nations of the UK, in particular regarding health, is an integral part of the devolution settlement and is to be welcomed, not criticised. However, the diversity in communicating public information has been woeful at times during the 12 weeks of this lockdown. To the best of my knowledge, there have been no joint simultaneous statements by the Prime Minister and the three First Ministers, and no joint simultaneous parliamentary or Written Statements by the Health or Business Ministers during this whole period. Will the Minister, on behalf of the Government, give a commitment to try to do better than this as we move out of lockdown and try to avoid a resurgence of the virus next winter? Can we ensure that, even where there are differences, we communicate with clarity why they exist, and ensure that each part of this United Kingdom knows exactly what the rules and regulations are in its area?
The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
I am sorry to interrupt but the reception is so bad on this Question that I ask the House to adjourn briefly, for five minutes, so that we can get the difficulties sorted out.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Lord True [V]
My Lords, with apologies to the House, I will repeat the Answer I gave earlier. The United Kingdom Government have worked closely with the devolved Administrations throughout the crisis. There have been frequent discussions between Ministers and officials. This engagement will continue. As we set out in our road map to recovery, the virus may be spreading at different speeds across the United Kingdom, and measures may need to change in different ways and at different times. Citizens in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should follow the equivalent guidance issued by their respective Administrations.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
My Lords, the divergence of decision-making during this lockdown period is something to celebrate, not criticise. It is an integral part of the devolution settlement and has made for better decision-making for each individual health service and other aspects of government in the four nations. However, at times, the public communication of those decisions has been woeful. The lack of co-ordination between the public announcements of the four Health Ministers and the four Business Ministers—and even between the Prime Minister and the three First Ministers—has created confusion and, occasionally, distress in the four nations. I urge the Minister to give a commitment on behalf of the Government to seek to improve this co-ordination of public information, communication and explanation as we emerge from lockdown and try to avoid a second spike or a resurgence of the virus in the winter.
Lord True [V]
My Lords, I understand the point that the noble Lord makes. He is right that there is a devolution settlement and that these matters are devolved. Clear communication to citizens has been a priority throughout the crisis. We have tried to make clear, and have made clear, which measures apply to citizens in each of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, including through making this explicit in UK Government guidance.
Lord Mann (Non-Afl)
My Lords, many families are spread across the United Kingdom. Does the Minister agree that, when it comes to the opportunity for families to reunite in person, the more integrated the approach across the United Kingdom, the fairer and better it will be for everyone?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, I think that the noble Lord strikes a chord with every citizen in this country when he speaks of the importance of family and the sacrifices that families have had to make. We are seeking to confront the virus as one United Kingdom. I welcome the fact that, in different places, it is now easier for family members to reunite than it was at the start of the lockdown. But I take the noble Lord’s point. We will always seek to proceed out of this crisis as a United Kingdom.
Lord Davies of Gower (Con) [V]
My Lords, the co-ordination between certain departments of Her Majesty’s Government and the devolved Governments of the UK has been a little confusing. Aviation is an example of a reserved matter. However, two weeks ago, the Secretary of State for Transport announced that general aviation could happen again because it was determined that the risk of contributing to increased infection was minimal. As a reserved matter, it follows that the DfT has a UK-wide responsibility for GA, yet only last week, pilots in Scotland were permitted to take to the skies while those in Wales and Northern Ireland are still waiting for the go-ahead. What discussions, if any, are taking place between the Government and the devolved Administrations about achieving a consistent UK-wide approach to general aviation?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, I fear that I am not a specialist in aviation matters, but I will write to the noble Lord on this important topic.
Lord Eames (CB) [V]
My Lords, at present, who in government is responsible for co-ordinating contact with the devolved nations? Lately, on at least one occasion, one of the devolved Administrations learned of a policy decision by central government involving public health issues from the media. Is that acceptable?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, good communication should always be striven for. That is the Government’s objective. At the outset of the crisis, the United Kingdom Government established a Cabinet committee structure to deal with the health, economic, public sector and international impacts of Covid-19 on behalf of the whole of the UK. Ministers from the devolved Administrations have regularly been invited to participate in these discussions. We are certainly committed to ensuring that the Administrations are informed and involved at every stage.
Baroness Andrews (Lab) [V]
My Lords, further to the Minister’s reply, can he now tell the House why the Secretary of State did not inform, let alone consult, the First Minister of Wales—as a matter of courtesy, let alone practicality—that he was planning to make face masks mandatory on public transport? The First Minister has put it this way:
“We’re going to have to … find out from them the extent to which they have got answers to these questions, in advance of making the decision, or whether it’s a matter of making the headline, and then worrying about the detail afterwards.”
Lord True [V]
My Lords, I note what the noble Baroness says, but Welsh government officials and Ministers have been involved in COBRA meetings, committees and dozens of other meetings with UK government Ministers and officials since the pandemic began. This will continue to be a key part of the planning and communication of the overall response. We strive to do the best at all times. If there are failures, they are to be regretted, but we should go forward together as a United Kingdom.
Baroness Humphreys (LD) [V]
My Lords, a recent Welsh political barometer poll showed that by a margin of four to one the Welsh public strongly prefer the Welsh Government’s approach to easing the lockdown. Does the Minister not agree that this pandemic has shown the ability of the devolved Administrations not only to work differently but to achieve better outcomes in response to the needs of their citizens?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, the purpose of the devolution settlement is to enable the devolved Administrations to respond as they believe right to local needs. I repeat that I believe that there is a high level of co-ordination, co-operation and understanding between all authorities involved in fighting this crisis.
Lord Mancroft (Con) [V]
My Lords, in recognising the need to co-ordinate between the Government and the devolved Administrations, does my noble friend recognise that the requirement for two-metre social distancing above all else is preventing us reopening our economy? Can my noble friend tell the House what research the Government have that leads them to a different conclusion from the World Health Organization and most European Governments, which recommend one or 1.5-metre social distancing? What steps are the Government taking to reduce this from two metres, and when?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, the Government are guided by science at all stages of the crisis; the advice we have given has been on that basis. The advice is constantly under review by SAGE, but I can give no guarantees as to when or whether any change will be announced.
Lord Bilimoria (CB)
My Lords, the Secretary of State for Health has assured us that all care home workers and patients will be tested. Can the Minister confirm that this has taken place throughout the United Kingdom? Is he aware that in Scotland, sadly, coronavirus deaths have now overtaken hospital deaths, with 46% of deaths in Scotland in care homes versus 29% in England and Wales? Surely the Minister agrees that testing patients and care workers in care homes throughout the whole of the UK should be an immediate priority for the Government.
Lord True [V]
My Lords, I cannot add to what my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Health said, but I can underline one’s concern for every resident of care homes. As my right honourable friend said, that testing is available. He announced yesterday evening that the testing will be extended to a wider range of care homes, not only those for the elderly.
Baroness Thornton (Lab) [V]
Following on from my noble friend Lady Andrews’s question, the Minister might take on board that there are some definite communication difficulties from the centre to Wales. What specifically will the Government do to ensure that people living on the long border between England and Wales understand and abide by the different lockdown rules?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, regardless of where a person lives, if they are in Wales, they are subject to Welsh rules, and vice versa if they are in England. That is a clear position and one that I reiterate.
The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed; I thank noble Lords for taking part today. That concludes the hybrid proceedings on Oral Questions.
EU: Trade and Security Partnership
Lord True Excerpts(3 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress was made in securing a comprehensive trade and security partnership during the last round of negotiations with the European Union
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con) [V]
My Lords, negotiators from the United Kingdom and the European Union held full and constructive discussions last week via video conference. The talks covered trade in goods and services, fisheries, law enforcement and criminal justice, and other issues which both sides engaged in constructively. There was, however, no movement on the most difficult areas where differences of principle are at their most acute, notably fisheries, governance arrangements and the so-called level playing field.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
I regret that no Statement has been made here or in the Commons. Thus, we have to drag the Minister here, if you like, to report on even that much. This is not the parliamentary scrutiny promised. This was a vital round of talks, but there has been little sign of movement, as the Minister said, towards agreement. Could he explain why the Government expect only the EU to compromise in order to reach a deal without being willing to do so themselves?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, we are in a negotiation. The Government remain committed to a successful outcome. We believe it would still be straightforward to agree a suite of arrangements with an FTA at its core. Our position needs to be understood: we will not agree to any of the EU’s demands for us to give up our rights as an independent state.
Lord Howard of Rising (Con) [V]
Could the Minister say when reporting progress whether the attitude of European Union negotiators has created such difficulties during discussions that the possibilities or chances of finding common ground in many areas, such as the level playing field or fishing, have become virtually impossible? The inability of European Union negotiators to recognise that the United Kingdom is a sovereign and independent nation and to treat Great Britain as such is making compromises impossible, and will continue to do so until such time as European Union negotiators understand that Great Britain is not a colony of the European Union.
Lord True [V]
My Lords, I will not criticise the negotiators on either side; they have their mandates and both have said that they find the discussions professional and appropriate. However, my noble friend is quite right to say that on certain matters, as I think Mr Frost said, the EU must evolve an understanding that the United Kingdom is not prepared to accept the so-called level playing field or, indeed, to accept that we cannot be an independent coastal state regarding fisheries.
Baroness Ludford (LD) [V]
My Lords, the Conservative Party has long regarded itself, justifiably or not, as the party that looks after business, so can the Minister tell us why this Conservative Government are so apparently casual about the prospect of a no-deal crash-out on 31 December, despite alarmed warnings from business representatives such as the CBI, from hauliers about the lack of customs preparation at Dover, from the pharmaceutical industry about dangerously low stocks of drugs, from the business community in Northern Ireland about lack of detailed preparation for implementation of the Irish protocol, and from many others? Why is ideology trumping pragmatism?
Lord True [V]
There is no ideology. This is a pragmatic Government. We have close contact with business, which will intensify and continue. There is no crash-out no deal. We will leave the EU at the end of the year with either a Canada-style or an Australia- style arrangement.
Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB) [V]
Can the Minister explain the steps the UK Government are taking to involve the devolved Governments in formulating positions to be taken in the negotiations in the light of the many assurances given by the UK Government about involving the devolved Governments?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, there is regular contact between government Ministers and Ministers in the devolved Administrations. Those contacts will continue.
The Earl of Kinnoull (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, Michel Barnier, in his statement of 5 June, following the fourth round of negotiations, referred to the need to have
“a full legal text by 31 October at the latest, i.e. in less than 5 months.”
Does the Minister agree with that timetable? If not, what does he think the latest date is for a full legal text?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, the Government still hope to have a successful outcome, as I said. Mr Frost indicated some measures that might be taken to intensify discussions. There will also be, as noble Lords know, a high-level meeting later this month.
Baroness Primarolo (Lab) [V]
My Lords, David Frost told the European Union Select Committee of your Lordships’ House, when asked specifically about access to EU databases, that
“we cannot accept the conditions that the EU imposes”.
How confident, therefore, is the Minister that a broad outline on data exchange and intelligence-led policing in the UK will be reached by the end of June when the Government appear to expect the European Union to compromise to meet a deal without being willing, as my noble friend Lady Hayter said, to do so themselves?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, we are in a negotiation. I will not second-guess what might or might not happen in the course of it. All the areas, including policing and security, which the noble Baroness mentioned, are, of course, important. Those will continue to be the subject of discussions between the Governments.
Baroness Meyer (Con) [V]
Given that the EU appears determined to bind the UK into the common fisheries policy and its own rules and standards, does the Minister not agree that there would actually be negotiating advantage in not reaching an agreement before the end of the transition period so that the EU would be forced to accept the reality of the UK as an independent and sovereign state?
Lord True [V]
I thank my noble friend for the question, but again, I am not going to second-guess the process of negotiations. I note that, on fish, the political declaration clearly set out that a separate agreement should be enforced in July ahead of the other agreements. The EU, on the other hand, continues to push for one single overarching agreement.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]
My Lords, the February document that the Government published on the future relationship included a chapter on digital services that sets out that we need to
“encourage regulatory cooperation and a strategic dialogue on emerging technologies”.
I could not find this in the items for discussion in the fourth round of negotiations, nor does any progress seem to have been made on it. Are the Government hoping that we will continue to have regulatory co-operation in this very important emerging industry? As a fallback position, are they discussing with the Americans whether we will converge on American data regulation rather than European regulations if these negotiations break down?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, the noble Lord is right: there is an international dimension to these questions. We expect foreign policy co-operation broadly to be substantial with the EU, as it is with many of our international partners, but we do not think that an institutional framework is necessary to deliver it.
Baroness Deech (CB) [V]
Will the Minister join me in encouraging Mr Frost to stand firm and make it clear that we are willing to walk away if necessary? Can he also emphasise that after Brexit we must retain sovereignty over our defence and foreign policy? Given the EU’s ineffectiveness in relation to hostility from China and its overdependence on Russian gas regarding Nord Stream 2, can he ensure that we depart from EU defence structures and defence funds and reinforce our partnership with NATO and the Five Eyes intelligence group?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, the noble Baroness refers to some very important factors in our international relationships. Mr Frost is doing an excellent job for his country, in line with the decisions of Parliament and the people. As for wider foreign policy, I alluded to that in the previous answer.
Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab) [V]
My Lords, as the EU grasps that we will not extend the transition period, will it not recognise that it is very much in its own economic interests to set aside ideology and make a free trade deal? In any case, is it not absolutely in our interest not to be tied into contributing billions to the Commission’s new budget and subsidising a eurozone economy that was in dire trouble even before the pandemic?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, I try not to criticise any aspect of the European Union from this Dispatch Box but, that apart, I agree with that the noble Lord has just said.
Lord Bowness (Con) [V]
Does my noble friend the Minister accept that we signed a political declaration? Do the Government still consider themselves bound by that declaration, which reflected the fact that. while we keep talking about being a sovereign nation, we have nevertheless been involved deeply with the EU over the last 40-plus years? That reflects many of the existing arrangements. Secondly, when will the Joint Committee next meet? Will it recognise that the circumstances are now totally different from those at the time of the referendum—or indeed the general election—and that an extension is badly needed to achieve what the parties want by way of future relations?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, the Withdrawal Agreement Joint Committee next meets on 12 June. I repeat that the Government do not consider an extension of the transition necessary or desirable. It will not happen from a UK Government point of view. The political declaration sets out the potential scope of our future relationship. We and the EU signed up to it, but any agreement based on it must be balanced and represent a balance of benefits to both sides.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard? No? Lord West of Spithead.
Lord West of Spithead (Lab) [V]
My Lords, a lightning rod for EU seriousness on defence and security co-operation is Project Galileo. Is it still the intention to have scientific, technological and industrial UK involvement in this project, despite lack of access to the classified output of the system?
Lord True [V]
My Lords, the UK and the EU discussed Project Galileo during the withdrawal agreement negotiations. The EU’s offer on it then did not meet the United Kingdom’s defence and industrial requirements.
National Risk Register
Lord True Excerpts(3 years, 12 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, I draw attention to my interests in the register, and beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
My Lords, the Government undertake regular reviews of our preparedness for the risks facing the United Kingdom. The national risk register outlines what is being done about the key risks and how the public can make themselves prepared for them. The latest version is being reviewed in the light of the Covid-19 response and will be published when that has been completed.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, but most risk registers explicitly show the actions taken to mitigate the risks alongside the risks themselves. None of this is easy because you can never eliminate risks, but it is reasonable that the public and Parliament should know what judgments the Government are taking to protect us so that we can judge whether the response is reasonable and proportionate. What have the Government got to hide in not publishing the actions being taken? If the concern is security, can those actions not be shared confidentially with the Intelligence and Security Committee and the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy?
Lord True
My Lords, transparency is important but, as the noble Lord knows, the national security risk assessment is a document that has security implications. The national risk register itself has been published since, I believe, 2008. It was not published before. We publish a number of subsidiary documents that give guidance. We work through local resilience bodies and with stakeholders to deliver the capabilities sought in the register.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, human disease pandemics are a registered risk. Since 2018, the Government have had a national Biological Security Strategy, which mentions human disease pandemics in its very first sentence. If the Minister has had an opportunity to read this strategy, he will know that its implementation is dependent on the work of the threats, hazards, resilience and contingency sub-committee of the National Security Council. Two years on, this ministerial sub-committee of the NSC does not exist, and it never has. In the absence of this committee, how has the strategy been implemented?
Lord True
My Lords, I am not commenting on the meetings of particular Cabinet committees. The noble Lord, who has a distinguished record in this area, needs to understand that very substantial planning was and is in place for dealing with pandemics. However, the public realise that Covid-19 is a novel virus that has presented different challenges. I am impressed by the remarkable resilience shown by so many people in this country, and by so many authorities, in responding to it.
Lord Taylor of Warwick (Non-Afl)
My Lords, diversity should not mean adversity. The Public Health England report of 2 June concluded that BAME communities are at a higher risk from Covid-19. How will the protection of ethnic minorities be prepared for in future in the national risk register?
Lord True
My Lords, I profoundly agree with my noble friend about the importance of these matters. The report from PHE is an important start but, as my colleagues in other responsible departments and the public health authorities have said, we need to build on it and go forward. That stage of work is being undertaken and I would underline the absolute commitment of the Government in this area.
Baroness Altmann (Con)
My Lords, the latest risk register, published in 2017, highlighted planning for a flu pandemic as one of the major risks faced by the country. It mentions measures taken to prepare with PPE and infection control protocols. Can my noble friend outline for me, or write to me on, how those protocols and PPE preparations were specifically targeted at the most vulnerable people in the country: those living in care homes or in the social care sector?
Lord True
On the detailed and very important point that my noble friend raises, we will provide her with the details that she asks for. The flu requirement for PPE is slightly different from that for Covid, which is different from flu in its symptoms and hospitalisation rate. My noble friend will understand that—but, again, I believe that the Government have made a determined and effective response.
Baroness Barker (LD)
Since 2010, the resources of local government have decreased by 50% but their statutory obligations have not. Will the current review include an updated estimation of the capacity of local government to deal with Covid and other emergencies such as flooding or civil disorder, and will the Government publish that review?
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend has in effect experienced two civil emergencies this year: flooding and extreme weather, which we saw in the winter, and now the pandemic. There is a potential third civil emergency, which is a Brexit with no trade deal impacting on the flow of medicines into this country. As we have already seen supplies in short measure, owing to the fact that factory production in third countries has reduced, and with the potential for supply chains to firm up and be distorted after Brexit, what measures are the Government taking to ensure the supply of essential medicines in the event of no trade deal on 31 December this year?
Lord Houghton of Richmond (CB)
My Lords, given that most major national crises, from foot and mouth, flooding, terrorist attacks and Olympic security to Covid-19, inevitably seem to require military support, especially in command, control and logistics, is now not the time to overhaul the procedures for military aid to the civil authorities and to reconsider relevant military capacity, so as to bring greater professionalism to the overall management of national resilience?
Lord True
My Lords, the noble and gallant Lord makes an important point. In responding to threats since 2016, we have drawn lessons about the involvement of the Armed Forces, as well as volunteers. I pay tribute to the extraordinary role of the Armed Forces in the current crisis and agree with much of what he said.
Lord Whitty (Lab)
My Lords, given that the outbreak of a pandemic has been top of the risk register since 2009, do we need not just a list of the mitigation required but the means to deliver that mitigation? We know that there were no standby contracts for the production of PPE or stockpiles of it. We also know that laboratories in the public, private and university sector had not been contacted to establish potential testing facilities. This would apply whatever the nature of the disease. From here on, will those contracts be put in place for any future pandemic?
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)
What consideration of the risk register and preparedness plans is made in policy and financial decisions?
Lord Pickles (Con)
My Lords, having reread the 2008 and 2017 editions of the national risk register and the subsidiary documents last night, I hope that my noble friend will not think me unkind when I say that the Government’s response to Covid-19 has been effective despite the register rather than because of it. Given that the level of deaths has sadly reached that which the risk register predicted for influenza, I cannot really believe that the measures suggested in the register would have been used. I suspect that they would more likely have been similar to what we have seen with Covid-19. Does he agree that the sections on both corona-type and influenza pandemics should be reassessed and rewritten, and that the rest of the register should be subject to rigorous and unrelenting questioning?
Lord True
My Lords, everything should be subject to rigorous and unrelenting questioning. I agree with my noble friend about updating; it so happens that the current iteration has been drafted and circulated for consideration. But, in the light of what my noble friend said, he will understand that that iteration will come after the full absorption of the lessons and experience of the Covid crisis. But I assure him that its publication will come as soon as possible, once those lessons have been absorbed.
The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. I congratulate colleagues on the fact that we got through all 10 questions on this occasion. The third Oral Question is from the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin.
EU: Plans for No Deal
Lord True Excerpts(4 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
My Lords, at the end of this year we will have recovered our economic and political independence on the basis of the agreement that we reached in October. Whether our relationship is on a Canada model or an Australian one, we will be leaving the single market and the customs union at the end of the year. As such, there is a fixed baseline of guaranteed changes for government, citizens and businesses to prepare against in these areas.
Lord Dubs (Lab)
My Lords, no one could have foreseen that the Covid-19 pandemic would take place when the withdrawal agreement was drawn up. Does the Minister agree that if there is a no-deal Brexit there is no contingency plan that can prevent enormous damage to the economy, jobs, business and industry? Furthermore, is he not aware that every reputable body and commentator says that we ought to extend the timetable in order that we can get a better deal for this country? Surely that is the way forward.
Lord True
My Lords, I do not agree with the noble Lord in the picture that he presents of either unpreparedness or impossibility. We will seek and are seeking a free trade agreement with the European Union and we are carrying on negotiations in a number of areas, including one that I know is important to him: we are committed to seeking reciprocal agreements with the EU, for example, for family reunion of unaccompanied children. This work goes on and it can be done.
Baroness Andrews (Lab)
My Lords, given that the Social Market Foundation has calculated this week that the regions that will suffer most from the double shock of a no deal plus the pandemic will be the north-west and the Midlands, as well as sectors crucial to the economy such as finance and insurance, what plans do the Government have to mitigate the damage that this will do to such vital areas of the country and the economy?
Lord True
My Lords, the Government seek to extend the opportunities of our being outside the European Union and to enable businesses and citizens to prepare for the change for which the people of this country voted and for which Parliament legislated. Of course, in our strategy of levelling up, we will have particular regard to any parts of the country that are affected in particular ways.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, in his evidence to your Lordships’ House’s EU Committee last week, the UK’s Brexit negotiator, Mr David Frost, said that
“the Canada and Australia outcomes are similar”
if not identical. These are of course shorthand for a free trade agreement and no deal. Why are the Government so minimalist in their aims compared to the goal of
“an ambitious, broad, deep … partnership … with a comprehensive … Free Trade Agreement at its core”
that they signed up for in the political declaration last October?
Lord True
My Lords, I watched the evidence given by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and by Mr David Frost. I thought that they came over—I hope your Lordships will agree —as people who were seeking a responsible and reasonable agreement with the European Union. I am confident that those negotiations will succeed.
Lord Truscott (Ind Lab)
My Lords, Goldman Sachs has estimated that Britain’s economy has already lost 2.5% of GDP since the referendum. According to the Government’s own calculations, Brexit will cost 6.7% of GDP, or £130 billion, over the next 15 years. What assessment have Her Majesty’s Government made of the combined economic cost to the UK of Brexit and Covid-19?
Lord True
My Lords, I am a veteran of listening to baleful predictions about what might happen if the British people made the decision that they did. The Government have made it clear that they will invite evidence and opinions from a range of economists and others as to what the future might hold, but our position is that this is an opportunity and a duty, and we intend to deliver it.
The Earl of Sandwich (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister accept that if no progress is made soon with the EU on farming and animal welfare standards, which is an issue of great concern to Parliament as well as to the country, it must surely inhibit our negotiators in the US FTA in maintaining those same standards and is therefore likely to lead to an inadequate mini-deal?
Lord True
My Lords, the noble Earl is quite right to refer to the importance of agricultural products, which is obviously a matter being discussed in the ongoing negotiations. I am not following him into any linkages. My interest and that of the Government is to secure the best outcome in the negotiations that are going on as we speak.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, yesterday’s EU Committee report described the continued uncertainty and lack of time for a deal, combined with the pandemic, as
“a potent threat to economic prosperity and political stability in Northern Ireland.”
Businesses still do not know what to expect by way of customs processes, regulatory checks and exit summary declarations on goods from GB to Northern Ireland. Without a comprehensive free trade agreement, the consequences for Northern Ireland could be seismic. Can the Minister outline plans to advise businesses in Northern Ireland and GB and help them prepare for the future in case such an agreement is not reached by the year end?
Lord True
My Lords, I read with great interest your Lordships’ report on the Northern Ireland protocol. I do not agree with every judgment in it, but it was very valuable and the Government will make a response in due course. I said—I think when I answered the noble Baroness on a previous occasion—that a business engagement forum in Northern Ireland is imminent. A process of engagement with business across the country is of great importance, is ongoing and will be intensified.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, the Minister in his first Answer said that we are negotiating on the basis of the agreement reached last October. Earlier this year, we had a number of authoritative briefings, presumably from No. 10, to say that the decisive result of last December’s general election in effect sidelined the political declaration and that we were now negotiating on what the Minister also described as a more minimalist arrangement. The political declaration talked about an “overarching” framework and a continuing security, foreign policy and defence relationship, which is a great deal more than Canada or Australia. Have we now abandoned the political declaration, or are we still, as the European Commission would like, negotiating on the basis of that agreement?
Lord True
My Lords, we have put into law a withdrawal agreement, including the NI protocol, and that is the basis of our continuing policy. The Government have published a number of documents which have been laid before your Lordships’ House on our approach to negotiations and, most recently, on the Northern Ireland protocol. That is the basis on which we are proceeding, in good faith and hope.
The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
Lord Howarth of Newport. No? Baroness Deech.
Baroness Deech (CB)
Does the Minister agree that the only contingency worth considering at this moment is that if we stay tied to the European Union beyond 31 December, we face paying into a dramatically increased EU budget next year, with new taxes? It has been estimated that staying in might cost us £380 billion over the next two years. Is it not time to make sure that we get out by 31 December?
Lord True
My Lords, I am not going with any particular prediction on this question, as I did not on an earlier one—there will be a range of opinions—but I fully agree with the noble Baroness that, were we to stay attached to the EU beyond December, we would face uncertain, unknown but substantial costs in terms of our duties to make payments to the European Union.
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl)
What resources will be provided to implement the Northern Ireland/Ireland protocol in terms of staff and finance?
Lord True
My Lords, I cannot give a particular figure in reply to the noble Baroness, but, as I have tried to stress to her before, the Government recognise fully the importance of securing the internal market with Northern Ireland and will do all in their power to assist with that and to maintain the position that exists now.
The Lord Speaker
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed. I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in Question Time. That concludes the Virtual Proceedings on Oral Questions. The Virtual Proceedings will resume at a convenient point after 12 noon for the Private Notice Question on Hong Kong.
Northern Ireland Protocol
Lord True Excerpts(4 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, given the duplicity of the Government, the Northern Ireland protocol has all the semblance of damaged goods. In particular, the repeated denial that it would involve the need for any new UK customs declaration or checks is revealed as the hollow sham that it always was.
In his Statement yesterday, Michael Gove tried to play this down, but the White Paper cannot be gainsaid. It says that
“there will be some limited additional process on goods arriving in Northern Ireland ... There will be no new physical customs infrastructure ... We will however expand some existing entry points for agrifood goods to provide for proportionate additional controls.”
It also says in relation to
“Belfast Port, Belfast International Airport, Belfast City Airport and Warrenpoint Port”
that:
“Expanded infrastructure will be needed at some of these sites for the purpose of agri-food checks and assurance ... we expect to request additional categories of commodities at Belfast Port, and to designate Larne Port for live animal imports ... further designations may also be required at other existing sites.”
This is a clear change of a radical nature. What costs and delays does the Minister expect it to cause? It cannot be done without time being taken to deal with these matters.
The Government choose to refer to the withdrawal agreement as a “deal” when it is no such thing; it is an agreement on the terms of withdrawal. When it suits, they choose to rely on the political declaration, although this is only a declaration of intent and needs to be judged against the backdrop of the Government preparing for a no-deal Brexit and, frankly, blaming the EU for it.
The Government also seek to present the protocol as temporary, dependent only on a vote of the Northern Ireland elected representatives to abandon it after 2024. In reality, it puts Northern Ireland in the unique position of effectively remaining in the EU single market and the UK customs union—a privilege which many businesses in Great Britain would no doubt love to have. Again, the Government seek to downplay the importance of cross-border trade to the Province, yet it is worth over £5 billion and for some businesses may be their chief revenue and profit earner.
If they import components from the UK and process them before exporting to the Republic, they will be liable to tariffs. This will present them with a clear difficulty. It will involve extra bureaucracy and require them to fill out import and export forms and train and possibly recruit extra staff and maybe use agents. All this will add substantial costs. The White Paper says that HMRC will provide help and guidance to businesses, but this is to help deal with a situation they currently do not face. This will come at a cost, so will the Government cover that cost?
The Government make great play of the benefit of lower tariffs that they hope to negotiate at some unspecified future date. Of course, while I appreciate the benefits of free trade, if this comes at the expense of tariff barriers with the EU, the net benefit may be at best limited and possibly negative. It may also be that we accept imported goods of lower standards, such as food products from the United States. This could compromise domestic producers in Northern Ireland. It is not a one-way street.
Depending on what agreement is reached with the EU, the dynamics of trade between the Republic, Northern Ireland and Great Britain could change. This would make issues of customs controls much more live. An incentive for Northern Ireland to become the bridge between the EU single market and the rest of the UK would clearly require more transparent customs controls, especially if there were divergence on tariffs and regulations.
The Government’s refusal in this context to consider an EU presence in Belfast raises questions of trust. Trust will be achieved if there is a comprehensive and mutually beneficial free trade deal. If there is a hard or no-deal Brexit, it is hardly surprising that the EU and the UK will look at each other with suspicion. There are many more questions than answers from this White Paper. As it stands, it does little to build trust with either the EU, the Republic or the business community of Northern Ireland. I hope the Minister can reassure all those bodies that it is being pursued in good faith and is entirely consistent with both the spirit and the letter of the agreement the Government signed with the EU.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
I thank both noble Lords. I had noted down to say that the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, had always been constructive in his responses, but I was a bit disappointed when he opened by accusing the Government of duplicity. The Government have been clear from the start that they will stand by their obligations under the protocol. The fundamental issue here is that the protocol exists to ensure that the progress the people of Northern Ireland have made in the 22 years since the Good Friday Agreement, which we all support, is safeguarded and maintained. That means, as both contributors from the Front Benches opposite acknowledged, that this matter must be dealt with delicately, recognising the interests of both groupings within Northern Ireland and addressing both the lawful and reasonable desire of the European Union to protect the single market and the UK’s requirement to protect our own internal market and the inalienable place of Northern Ireland as part of the UK customs territory.
I will try to answer some of the questions raised. I do not want to be diverted by the role of the outstanding Sherpa, Mr Frost. I repeat my comment about the criticism made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, of his role, which she acknowledged and repeated today. Mr Frost is the appointed representative of the Prime Minister in these negotiations. I understand that he will come with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster next week to give evidence and be accountable to your Lordships’ House.
I think it would be fair to say, diplomatically, that the response was not entirely enthusiastic from the parties opposite. The noble Baroness spoke about border checks. We are in the business not of border checks, but of light-touch administrative arrangements that will enable and facilitate trade. It is in the interests of both parties in this negotiation. It is a negotiation and discussion on how we will implement the protocol, not how we will renegotiate it. It is not in the interests of anybody to see a heavy-handed system. Indeed, Monsieur Barnier himself said that it is important that the procedures of the protocol should be as easy as possible and not too burdensome, in particular for smaller businesses. I agree with that and I am sure that noble Lords opposite do.
The noble Baroness rightly asked about business. Many businesses want clarity. I assure her that there have been extensive discussions and consultation with business, but as she will know, the Government are now moving forward as we go into this stage of discussion to establish a business engagement forum on the protocol. We will set out details shortly, but it is obviously important as it goes forward that we draw on the experience of businesses in sectors right across Northern Ireland. The interests of business are fundamental. Again, I hope that the European Union and the United Kingdom would agree in implementing this that the burdens on business should be as light as possible and that neither party should demand excessive burdens.
The noble Baroness asked about unfettered access. I assure her that there will be unfettered access. That is the objective and intention of Her Majesty’s Government and we intend to legislate to achieve that for goods from Northern Ireland to the rest of the United Kingdom.
As far as smuggling and abuse of the system is concerned, such practices go on at present. They are normally addressed by market surveillance and effective, targeted action. I am sure that market surveillance will continue in the unlikely circumstance that the noble Baroness posits of some mass attempt to subvert legitimate trade.
We intend this to be a light-touch approach. The noble Baroness and the noble Lord were both sceptical on this matter. The forms that the noble Baroness referred to will be processes administered electronically and will be light-touch in action. We will be negotiating and discussing how those matters will be implemented in the joint committee and specialised committee, which were set up under the protocol to provide just these sorts of discussions.
The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, referred to the Government setting great store by the matter being temporary. A provision for consent was agreed by both sides and in consultation with parties on both sides of the border in the original protocol. The capability exists for the representatives of the people of Northern Ireland to alter the situation in four years if they wish to do so, but that matter is entirely for the Northern Ireland Executive and is not being pressed, as was implied in the Statement. Time will see. I hope that we will find an effective way of operating. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, that Northern Ireland will remain part of the United Kingdom’s customs territory and that bureaucracy will be kept to a minimum.
The noble Lord asked about the idea of an EU office in Belfast. Without wishing to be contrary, I have pointed out in this House that, in the context of wishing to maintain and protect the Good Friday agreement, a physical building of that sort might not be the most light-touch operation, but the British Government of course acknowledge their responsibilities within the protocol to satisfy everyone that the protocol is being complied with. If I might say so, the Belfast office is becoming a little bit of a totem on the side of those who wish to say that Britain is not acceding to its responsibilities. I remind your Lordships that such an office was not provided for in Article 12 of the protocol. How matters are implemented will continue, I hope, to be discussed constructively in the joint committee.
The Government are very grateful for the positive response—rather more positive than we have heard so far—from many people in Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Executive, our friends within Europe and many in the Republic of Ireland. They see the Government’s document as a reasonable, sensible and measured one, on the basis of which we wish to seek a sensible, balanced, workable and practical way forward. It is in that spirit that we will pursue discussions in the next few weeks.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
My Lords, I will be on the virtual Woolsack for the remainder of this session. We now come to the 30 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. I ask that questions and answers be brief so that I can call the maximum number of speakers. I call on the first speaker this evening, the noble Baroness, Lady Pidding.
Baroness Pidding (Con)
My Lords, the economy of Northern Ireland is heavily dependent on small and medium-sized enterprises. Understandably, at present those businesses are focused on dealing with the consequences of the coronavirus pandemic and on ensuring that they and their employees’ livelihoods survive. That said, it is also critical that we look beyond the current crisis to our future relationship and opportunities outside the EU. Will the Minister give an assurance that in these challenging times real engagement is under way with the business community in Northern Ireland to help implement any changes required as we move out of the transition period, that Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK customs territory and that there will be no new customs infrastructure and no tariffs on goods flowing between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and that Northern Ireland businesses will have unfettered access to the Great Britain market?
Lord True
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her remarks. I can certainly give her the final assurances that she seeks. We will deliver unfettered access. We will legislate for it. We will, as she asks, ensure that there are no tariffs on goods remaining in UK customs territory, which are the vast majority of goods that pass to Northern Ireland. We will give effect to our proposals without the need for any new customs infrastructure. In addition, we will guarantee that Northern Ireland businesses benefit, as my noble friend implies, from the lower tariffs that we will deliver through the new free trade agreements that we hope to conclude. I repeat what I said in response to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord opposite. My noble friend is absolutely right to stress the critical role of the vibrant small business sector in Northern Ireland. It is of fundamental importance. I can certainly assure her that it will be very closely engaged as we go forward working for implementation, and its interests will be covered within the business engagement forum that we will shortly establish.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)
I welcome the White Paper because, despite the Govian smokescreen, it shows that the Government have retreated and are no longer in denial about two-way checks on Irish Sea trade. That clears the way for long- overdue consultation in Northern Ireland, which will guide the committee that decides how it is all to work. However, it is still a very odd White Paper. It tells the truth, but not the whole—[Inaudible.]—four pages and five annexes which list all the EU laws which will still apply, or the new democratic deficit, with Northern Ireland having no say in any changes to these laws, or even Article 12, on the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice. Perhaps the Minister would like to fill the lacuna, or at least correct his assurance to the House last night that the ECJ would not have jurisdiction after the transition period. The protocol states that it will, even if the White Paper does not mention the point.
Lord True
My Lords, I regret to say that some of the noble Lord’s question rather broke up on my computer. However, I think I heard him say at one point that there will be checks on both sides. It is clearly the Government’s intention that there will not be checks—that there will be unfettered access from Northern Ireland to the United Kingdom. I appreciated what the noble Lord said about the nature of the White Paper, even if he does not agree with all the details and questions a few points. I believe it is a very constructive attempt to lay the groundwork for what he rightly says will be, I hope, sensible and constructive discussions on implementation. However, I repeat that the purpose of all of us in this is to maintain the integrity of the Good Friday agreement, and that in doing so it is in the interests of both sides, as has frequently been said, that the arrangements put in place should impact as little as possible on the everyday lives of the people of Northern Ireland. That is our objective, and I hope it is that of our partners in negotiation.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, do not the protocol, the Statement and everything that my noble friend has said this afternoon underline the crucial importance of concluding an amicable agreement with our European friends and neighbours? That being the case, why do the Government, in the midst of a grave international crisis, when everybody’s mind is really on something else, continue to be so obdurate in insisting on the 31 December deadline? It would be no backtracking but a gesture of statesmanship to indicate that it is not sacrosanct.
Lord True
My Lords, I welcome my noble friend’s comments and his recognising that this Administration wish to reach an amicable agreement with our European friends; it is our hope, desire and expectation that we will still do that. I cannot go along at all with my noble friend in asking for an extension of the transition period. I have answered that before in this House and I do not believe it would help business in any way. It would provide further uncertainty and lead to an extension of negotiations. Remaining within the orbit of the European Union after the end of this year would have great and uncertain consequences regarding the contributions and actions the United Kingdom might be involved with. But above all, the British people have asked for this matter to be concluded—twice—and we will conclude it.
Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)
My Lords, I want to ask four specific questions, if I may. First, will the Treasury provide finance now to develop the necessary facilities at relevant ports? Secondly, would it be helpful to have a trial run now so that by the autumn, we could confidently tell the EU that we have practical solutions? Thirdly, given that Northern Ireland sends its milk to the Republic to be processed, will there be extra costs to dairy farmers? Against this, the key to the working of the arrangement will be the joint working party. When did it last meet and when will it meet next?
Lord True
My Lords, I fear that I do not have all the answers here. On facilities, I understand that any increase in costs will be met, but I will confirm that with the noble and learned Lord. On a trial run, we have to look at the practicalities of the systems we put in place; this is one of the reasons why we are setting up the business engagement forum. Discussions have already begun in various fora on matters such as co-ordination, along with technical discussions on systems and databases. Those discussions began in the joint committee meeting last month and took place in the first Ireland/Northern Ireland Specialised Committee on 30 April, and they will continue. I will have to write to the noble and learned Lord on the question of milk, and I undertake to do so.
Baroness Kramer (LD)
Can the Minister confirm that after transition, Northern Ireland will have to conform with the EU level playing field rules and that UK companies with interests in Northern Ireland will de facto also have to conform?
Lord True
The status of Northern Ireland under the protocol is well known and often discussed. Northern Ireland will effectively be operating within the EU single market but also within the internal market of the United Kingdom. The arrangements that we have put in place are envisaged in the protocol but, at present, the details of their implementation are under discussion.
The Earl of Kinnoull (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I too welcome the arrival of the White Paper, if not everything in it. The transition period began at the end of January, with 11 months to plan and agree matters in Northern Ireland, of which just over seven months remain. However, the White Paper sets out for the first time a host of necessary future actions, with some important workstreams yet to start. These include data flows, new groups and fora, as well as new physical infrastructure for the agri-food sector. Can the Minister assure the House that the klaxons are sounding and that there is now real urgency and momentum behind preparing Northern Ireland for life under the protocol?
Lord True
My Lords, I do not know about klaxons; I have always found them rather unpleasant. The United Kingdom Government regard Northern Ireland and its people as equal in every way to the rest of the United Kingdom and thus deserving the same privileges and the same attention. I can assure the noble Earl that whatever problems there have been with Covid—we all recognise the need to deal with them—we have engaged, we are engaging and we will engage on the principles and the practicalities of making these systems work, and indeed making them work for the benefit of the people of Northern Ireland. At all stages, we will respect the Good Friday agreement and the need to carry the consent of parties on both sides of the sectarian divide.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, as a staunch and long-standing unionist, unlike some who now seem to be exploiting this issue, I welcome the emphasis in the Command Paper on the consent principle in the 1998 Belfast agreement and on strengthening Northern Ireland’s place within our United Kingdom. Regrettably, the consent principle is not something that the Commission has always either understood or respected, as I know from my experience in dealing with it. Also, does my noble friend agree that the politically motivated proposal to establish an EU office in Belfast is entirely inappropriate and should continue to be strongly resisted?
Lord True
I agree with what my noble friend has said about the place of Northern Ireland. Indeed, I have just affirmed that myself and I am pleased to repeat it. I think and hope that the European Commission recognises the importance of showing due sensitivity in the implementation of these matters in respect of each community in Northern Ireland, and this White Paper gives it an opportunity to display that sensitivity, which I very much hope it will do. As for an EU office in Belfast, I agree with my noble friend that it is entirely unnecessary and goes beyond what was agreed in the protocol. I have noted the strong views held by some people on this point.
Lord Hain (Lab)
My Lords, I appeal to Ministers to be more frank about this. In promising unfettered access, the Command Paper states that there will be
“no change to how Northern Ireland goods arrive in Great Britain ports compared to today. … These arrangements will not cover goods travelling from Ireland or the rest of the EU being exported to Great Britain.”
Without costly checks and barriers, how is this compatible with the legally binding Irish protocol, which must differentiate between goods explicitly from Northern Ireland and those transited through from elsewhere, for which customs rules and tariffs apply?
Lord True
My Lords, I believe that in practical terms it will be possible to address the issues that the noble Lord points to, in so far as those difficulties exist. There is a little tendency to accuse the Government of trying to gloss over problems. We gloss over no problem. We start with the intention to make the protocol work in a practical, beneficial and light-touch way. Given co-operation from every party—and there has been a positive welcome for these proposals from the Northern Ireland Executive—there is no reason why we should not be able to make the system work as the White Paper sets out.
Lord Alderdice (LD)
My Lords, the consent principle is central to the Belfast agreement and referenced in the Statement, which says that the protocol will be disapplied if Northern Ireland’s political representatives subsequently
“conclude that it is no longer desirable”.
However, it is not unknown for Northern Ireland’s politicians to disagree about what is desirable. For the avoidance of doubt or misunderstanding down the line, can the Minister clarify whether, if at some future point unionists wish to disapply the protocol, Sinn Féin could veto this using the Assembly’s parallel consent requirement, thus blocking any disapplication of the protocol?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
The Statement covers one of the knottiest aspects of Brexit. As a member of the EU Committee, I think it represents a reasonable balance. However, the devil will be in the detail. The new business engagement forum may help. As someone who used to operate across the island of Ireland, I say this: we need a proper physical trial soon, for traders from some different sectors to transport goods from England to Northern Ireland, to the south and then back to England. Please can the Minister consider this further?
Lord True
My Lords, as my noble friend said, we will engage with businesses and traders about the requirements of the protocol. That will certainly be a priority in the coming weeks. She makes a very interesting and practical suggestion and is right that this will need to take account of how those traders move their goods in practice today, so that we ensure the system is as streamlined and efficient as we are clear that it must be. I certainly take note of her point.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, I will return to the point about the Belfast office raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie, and my fellow supporter of the union, the noble Lord, Lord Caine. Does the Minister not recall that in February last year the British Government told the European Union that they wanted the EU to have an office in Belfast, in part to contribute to the implementation of this protocol? That was then reneged on by Michael Gove. On a day when the Prime Minister has made a spectacular U-turn on fees for NHS staff from overseas, will the Minister—who we know is a man of influence—take the courage in his hands and do a U-turn on the Belfast office? If he does, he will be really popular with many people throughout Northern Ireland.
Lord True
My Lords, I must tell the noble Lord, as I have told others, that this Government’s view is that there is no need to implement the protocol for there to be an office of this character in Belfast. I know of the statement by an official to which he may have been referring, but the position of the UK Government is as I have described it.
Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)
My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, made it clear that the Command Paper highlights a lot of work that needs to be done between now and the end of the transition period. If Her Majesty’s Government are so determined to leave on 31 December with or without an agreement, what contingency planning are they doing if we leave without an agreement and the necessary works outlined in the Command Paper have not been delivered?
Lord True
My Lords, first, the Government hope that we will conclude a free trade agreement; that is our policy and our objective. I am not sorry to say—but from the noble Baroness’s point of view, I would be sorry to say—that it is our intention to end the transition period. Of course, the Government are planning for all eventualities and possibilities, but I assure the House that our objective is to reach a free trade agreement and to have a practical way forward on the protocol, on the basis of the Command Paper.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, the Government have rightly stated that they want to protect the disease-free status of the island of Ireland. Can my noble friend explain how that can be achieved without having physical checks on animals moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland?
Lord True
My Lords, there are currently checks on animals in Belfast. The island of Ireland has a special epidemiological status and both parties on this side wish to safeguard that. There will be provision for agri-food and animal product movement, which has been referred to in the Command Paper. However, we have said that no new infrastructure will be put in place, and that is the policy of the Government.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, in a Private Notice Question on Monday I asked the noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, what the Government will be doing about the extra costs imposed on goods going to Northern Ireland, and—given that pay is so low there—how people would be compensated. The noble Viscount said:
“I feel sure that those will be part of current discussions.”—[Official Report, 18/5/20; col. 904.]
This is an acknowledgement that there will be extra costs. Can the Minister tell me more about how the Government plan to compensate the people of Northern Ireland for those extra costs?
Lord True
I think that the noble Baroness leaps forward. This Government’s objective is to limit interference in the daily lives of the people of Northern Ireland, and to have a light-touch system that minimises cost. We should first focus all our objectives on reaching agreement on a mechanism for implementation that delivers this; we can address any consequentials afterwards. This is an agreement designed to secure the place of Northern Ireland, the Good Friday agreement and a better future for Northern Ireland businesses, as well as protecting the EU single market and the UK internal market. Surely those are objectives that everyone in this House should support.
Lord Robathan (Con)
My Lords, I first congratulate the Government and their Sherpa, David Frost, on standing up for the interests of the United Kingdom as an independent state. This makes a really nice change, despite what we might call the whinging from those who wish not to allow Brexit to go forward as the people have chosen. My concern is about how paramilitaries may benefit from this through smuggling and organised crime, with which we know that they are heavily involved. Can my noble friend tell me what the reaction of Sinn Féin in the Republic has been?
Lord True
My Lords, I am afraid that I do not have that information for my noble friend. I did note that the Northern Ireland Executive’s collective response was not unfavourable, to put it gently. As for paramilitary activities and paramilitary smuggling, no doubt that remains a problem, but the Governments of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland are united in wishing to stamp out such activities. The best way to do that is to continue to support the Good Friday agreement, and that is the fundamental objective of this Command Paper and the way forward that we have proposed.
Lord Adonis (Lab)
The Minister, speaking on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government, obviously chooses his words very carefully, and I took him earlier not to be ruling out there being an EU office in Belfast. Is that correct?
Baroness Hamwee (LD)
My Lords, reference has been made to consultation, but largely for the future. What consultation has there been so far in arriving at this White Paper, and have stakeholders, particularly the business community, confirmed that they regard the procedures as not being burdensome?
Lord True
My Lords, the response from business groups in Northern Ireland to the White Paper has been extremely encouraging and positive. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and his colleagues have an ongoing engagement and dialogue with the business sector, which is vital. I have affirmed again today that that will be a core part of carrying forward discussions on how we will implement these proposals, having told the House of the new Business Engagement Forum that I hope will begin its work shortly. But that is not beginning of engagement with business; it is the next stage of it.
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl)
My Lords, further to the answers given about the EU office in Belfast, will the Minister specify in exact detail why the Government consider that this office is not necessary, when the British Government have clearly stated that they will facilitate arrangements. Surely, such arrangements equal the need for an office?
Lord True
My Lords, I do not agree that facilitating arrangements, which is what is stated in the protocol, necessarily translates into cement. We are looking for light-touch, easy arrangements. I can only repeat what I have said to the House I believe four times already this evening: the position of the UK Government is that it is not necessary for the implementation of our undertakings under the protocol.
Baroness Morgan of Cotes (Con)
My noble friend has rightly said a number of times that a light-touch approach will be adopted. I know from my work with others on alternative arrangements for avoiding a hard border that administrative processes are perfectly capable of being used. Will he confirm that the processes planned are only administrative and that any import declarations would be in electronic form?
Lord True
I thank my noble friend and of course I pay tribute to her, as indeed I should have to the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for their contributions over the years to these matters. Yes, I can give my noble friend both those assurances. We hope for, expect and are proposing light administrative procedures of exactly the type she describes.
Lord Liddle (Lab)
This is a step forward but a very modest one. Does the Minister agree that this is a proposal that has to be agreed with the European Union and the European Commission in the joint committee and the specialised committee?
On the question of the union’s presence in supervising these arrangements, I have the protocol in front of me, and Article 12.2 makes clear that
“Union representatives shall have the right to be present during any activities of the authorities of the United Kingdom related to the implementation and application of provisions of … this Protocol”.
It goes on to say:
“Where the Union representative requests the authorities of the United Kingdom to carry out control measures … the authorities of the United Kingdom shall carry out those control measures”,
and that if we do not then this is subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. Will the Minister be honest about what the provisions of the protocol are?
Lord True
My Lords, I always try to be honest: I have human frailty, as does everyone else, but I seek to tell the truth. The noble Lord has confirmed what I just said about the content of the protocol. It does not require cement, but it requires the United Kingdom Government—who will themselves, as I underlined, administer these arrangements—to be ready to facilitate methods of assurance by the other party. Those methods of assurance do not need a heavy touch. I do not think that is envisaged by the European Union; certainly it is not by the United Kingdom Government. The United Kingdom Government’s desire is to build on this agreement and persuade all parties, including the European Union, that this kind of approach satisfies the interests of all parties and does so in a way that puts the interests of the people of Northern Ireland, and the peace agreement, first. I hope we can all unite on that.
The Deputy Speaker
My Lords, the day’s Virtual Proceedings are now complete and are adjourned.
EU: Future Relationship
Lord True Excerpts(4 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
While I was grateful to hear the Answer from Mr Gove, it is a shame that we cannot question the actual negotiator, David Frost, who seems to be following something other than the political declaration signed by the Prime Minister in October, and whose unprecedented letter to Michel Barnier yesterday called the EU proposals “unbalanced” and “egregious”, claiming that the EU is treating the UK as unworthy to be a partner in trade talks. Can the Minister confirm that this letter was signed off by a Minister, that it represents the UK’s attitude and that it is the normal way of undertaking delicate talks?
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
My Lords, the noble Baroness is always critical of the role of Mr David Frost, the Prime Minister’s Sherpa. Mr Frost acts on behalf of the UK Government and, in my view, is doing an outstanding job. I think many noble Lords would agree that his letter was not unreasonable, but reasonable in setting out some of the areas of difference which we hope can be clarified. I believe that it is still very possible, as Mr Frost said, to agree a “modern and high-quality” free trade agreement and other agreements. He has suggested ways to find a rapid and constructive way forward.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
How can the Government reproach the EU for being inflexible and ideological when they are insisting on many club membership benefits that they know are incompatible with the rather thin, minimalist relationship in which they reject the EU’s rules? Why, on the other hand, are they being so unambitious in areas such as foreign and defence policy, given that the UK surely has a great deal to contribute to a common European effort in an era of such uncertainty about the US and China? Why is there no proposed treaty on these matters, and why are the Government cavalier about a no-deal outcome at the end of the year? Are they refusing to contemplate an extension to the transition period because they think that the dire economic effect of no deal would be hidden by the effects of the corona- virus?
Lord True
My Lords, I certainly reject the last part of the noble Baroness’s question. I noted that today the Liberal Democrats introduced in another place a Bill to extend the transition period for two years until January 2024—a Bill, by the way, that comes without a financial memorandum. I just wonder when the party opposite is going to clock the decision made by the British people. The British Government are negotiating in good faith with ambition, hope and a constructive state of mind to reach a free trade agreement with the EU. We are confident that that is possible.
Lord Howard of Rising (Con)
How is it possible to negotiate with the EU when Monsieur Barnier’s starting point is to deal with the UK as if it were a colony rather than an independent sovereign nation, with which the EU has a large trade surplus?
Lord True
My Lords, I am not chasing either my noble friend or the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, into descriptions of other people’s positions with epithets. Mr Barnier is an excellent negotiator, but my noble friend is right that the EU mandate is perhaps somewhat less viable than that of Monsieur le Duc de Talleyrand. It is a pity that those mandating the EU negotiations have not noticed that 23 June 2016, 12 December 2019 and 31 January 2020 have changed much in this country, and it does not serve in these circumstances to have learned nothing and forgotten nothing.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)
I doubt if the Statement or Mr Frost ‘s letter will greatly advance the negotiation. I am struck by its petulant and querulous tone and the view that we are entitled to pick and choose. The Statement ends by saying that progress is possible only if the EU recognises that we are now a sovereign equal. I have two quick questions on sovereignty for the Minister. First, does he regard France, Spain, Germany and the 27 sovereign states as equally entitled to determine their own interests? Secondly, when we called in the political declaration for an overarching institutional framework that could be an association agreement, we must have had a different view on sovereignty because we now say that such an agreement is appropriate not for a sovereign equal but only for applicants for EU membership. I am really puzzled about this sovereignty doctrine. Is Israel or South Africa applying to join the EU? Do we think Ukraine is not a sovereign equal?
Lord True
My Lords, Question Time is not the moment for a debate on sovereignty. I must say I think the noble Lord probably used some much firmer language than Mr Frost in his diplomatic career occasionally. One of the issues is a sense that the EU wishes to exercise influence and authority within this country after the end of transition. The noble Lord quoted Latin the last time he spoke. I commend to him the wise advice of the Emperor Augustus, “consilium coercendi intra terminos imperii”—that is, a power should stay within its own fixed bounds. On issues such as the so-called level playing field, the jurisdiction of the ECJ and fisheries, we are asking the EU to recognise that the UK has chosen to be an independent state.
The Earl of Kinnoull (Non-Afl)
My Lords, in the last week my committee has had meetings with senior representatives of the European Commission, the European Parliament and the EU 27. An emerging theme has been the need to rebuild mutual trust, and a vital part of addressing that is interparliamentary work. When asked about the EU proposals on inter- parliamentary work, the Minister told the House on 12 May:
“the government are keenly supportive of such proposals”.—[Official Report, 12/5/20; col. 657.]
Michel Barnier talked on 15 May of a “lack of ambition” on the respective roles of the European Parliament and the British Parliament. I ask the Minister: which is correct?
Lord True
My Lords, I do not think there is any distinction between the two. The Government wish to see good relations between this Parliament—both your Lordships’ House and the other place—and other parliaments around the world, including the European Parliament. But it remains the Government’s view that while we are of course supportive of dialogue between parliamentarians, it is for your Lordships and those in the other place to determine how they wish to engage; it is not for a Government to bind this and future Parliaments to a particular methodology by a treaty.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, the Sherpa’s letter states that the draft fisheries agreement put forward by the UK is very close to the EU-Norway agreement, yet surely the success of an EU-UK fisheries policy will be that our produce—particularly that coming from a long distance, such as shellfish from Scotland—will have access to the French, Belgian and Dutch markets. How does my noble friend the Minister think that will be achieved by what is set out in the letter?
Lord True
My Lords, we have published a framework text to assist the negotiations on fisheries. It is based on precedent, but arrangements obviously will differ, as it is usual for those sorts of agreements to be tailored to the specific fisheries interests of the coastal states. That will be so in this case.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
Lord Morris of Aberavon? He does not seem to be there so I will move on.
Baroness Deech (CB)
My Lords, I congratulate David Frost on reaching out to member states and remind him of the wise words of his late namesake, Sir David Frost, who said:
“Diplomacy is the art of letting someone else have your way.”
Will the Government encourage Mr Frost to stand up for British values for the benefit of this country, and not just to think about the economy?
I must raise the arbitrary dismissal of Eleanor Sharpston, the British advocate-general at the European Court of Justice. She was sent packing before her term ended, even though her post is not attached to UK membership. If you sack a member of the court, judicial independence is meaningless. This is not a court that we can remain subject to. I hope the Government will make representations on behalf of Eleanor Sharpston.
The Deputy Speaker
My Lords, I apologise to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, and the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, but the time allocated for the Statement is now up. The day’s Virtual Proceedings are complete and are adjourned.