Service Accommodation

Debate between Jim Shannon and Mark Francois

Tuesday 19th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is indeed a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dame Angela.

I thank the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Alistair Strathern) for setting the scene so very well in this, his first debate—the first of many, I am sure. And what a good choice for a first debate—well done. The fact that we are all here to contribute shows our concern for service personnel.

I am very pleased to see the Minister in his place. He has come straight from the main Chamber, as indeed have I and others. We look forward to a positive response. I also look forward to the contributions from the Scottish National party spokesperson, the hon. Member for Angus (Dave Doogan), and especially from the Labour party shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard).

I declare an interest as a former soldier, Dame Angela. I served in the Ulster Defence Regiment for three years in an anti-terrorist role—not that I ever had the chance to pull the trigger of the gun. Maybe that was a good thing, although I did think about a few people who would have been better put in jail. In the Territorial Army, I served with the Royal Artillery for 11 and a half years. That was before the east-west border came down, so it was a long time ago, but it has given me an interest in service matters, and particularly accommodation.

The issue is important not only to me, but to many of my constituents who currently face poor accommodation choices. Through the armed forces parliamentary scheme, I had a chance to visit some of the accommodation overseas and on the mainland here in the UK. Cases brought to our attention clearly illustrated that while the accommodation in some cases was wonderful—marvellous—in others it was clearly not up to standard. That had an impact upon me. In 2016, the Public Accounts Committee said service families

“have been badly let down for many years”

and are not getting the accommodation service they

“have a right to expect”.

Why is that right to expect not being upheld? If they are being let down, they have a right to expect better. It is so important that we do all we can to ensure they are rewarded with good-quality accommodation.

The Governments of Wales and Scotland and the Northern Ireland Executive are responsible for delivering certain aspects of the armed forces covenant in their areas. The Welsh and Scottish Governments contribute to the armed forces covenant annual reports, but Northern Ireland does not. There is a reason for that. It is fair comment to say that back home in Northern Ireland, veterans do not generally attract priority for housing. To be fair, it is a devolved matter, so it is not the Minister’s responsibility directly, but I will outline a case later that makes my frustration with our system back home clear.

In addition to this, the Northern Ireland Housing Executive operate the housing system purely on a points system, with criteria that housing applicants must meet to be considered for a particular property. I would love it if it were the same for us in Northern Ireland as it is here for those who leave the Army after years of service. I have a case of a gentleman—I shall mention him again shortly—who left the Army after 20 years of service and has not been able to secure accommodation, despite the best efforts of charities and elected representatives to achieve that. There are real issues for us back home to ensure things can be done better.

Single men with no dependants are less likely to be rehoused quickly, even though they may have lengthy service as a veteran, or indeed not as a veteran. I am currently dealing with the case of a constituent in his 40s who was discharged from the Army in July this year after 20 years of honourable service. He is widowed and has no children. My office, along with other organisations, has been assisting him to be rehomed in the local area, via the Housing Executive. All he requires is a one-bed property, but he has only 60 points. I am not sure if that resonates with people here in the mainland, but for someone to get a property—even a one-bed—they need twice that number of points. It could be months—possibly years—before he is rehoused.

While others are talking about the state of accommodation, I am talking about people actually getting accommodation and our frustration with a system that just does not seem to be working. My constituent is currently residing with a charity that I have spoken of many times in Westminster Hall and in the main Chamber. Beyond the Battlefield is a wonderful charity which I have been involved with since its inception. With Government and charitable help, the charity has been able to open a centre in Portavogie, in my constituency of Strangford, where it has nine bedrooms to allocate. The charity is vastly oversubscribed and has applied for a central Government grant for an extension. The building has capacity for another nine bedrooms, which would be filled, such is the demand in Northern Ireland.

The charity goes the extra mile to support veterans who are simply discharged, with no thought given to how they will integrate into normal society. My and others’ frustration is that, when they leave, many are in a difficult position, whether because of trauma, post-traumatic stress, what they have seen when serving, or the life that they have led in the service of this country. Beyond the Battlefield helps to provide emergency accommodation, which is currently where my constituent is staying. Its volunteers provide instrumental support to veterans.

That is a classic example of how veterans in Northern Ireland are being let down in terms of their housing status: they have no other choice but to seek assistance from other organisations. On Remembrance Sunday, I saw a man, six foot, broad at the shoulders and tight at the hip; I knew just by looking that he was a soldier. He was doing his bit to remember all those friends and colleagues that he had lost over 20 years of service in Iraq, Afghanistan and some tours of duty in Northern Ireland. In my mind, the least we could do is support him, and many other like him, in his time of need, after decades of service to this nation.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

Like the hon. Gentleman, I served, in my case as an infantry officer in the Territorial Army during the cold war. He knows that the House of Commons Defence Committee is in the middle of an inquiry into service accommodation. The Minister is to give evidence to us in the new year, and I will not pre-empt that, but I make one point: for over a year, a number of service families were living in quarters that did not have gas and/or electricity safety certificates. We put those people at risk. Does he agree that that is completely unacceptable?

Armed Forces (Investment)

Debate between Jim Shannon and Mark Francois

Tuesday 18th November 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Francois]

My hon. Friend, with his usual eloquence, tempts me down a difficult alley. I cannot give him the assurance that he wants on that point, but I think I have made the party’s position on four boats clear. I regret that I disappoint him, as I know he has hankered for a fifth boat for some time, but I cannot promise that to him either.

Furthermore, we are significantly increasing our investment in cyber-security, ensuring our armed forces are equipped with cutting edge capabilities across all environments. That combined investment is not only securing the best possible military capability, but helping to secure UK jobs and growth. The UK defence industry employs more than 160,000 people, with a turnover of some £22 billion.

I turn now to naval bases. For generations, up and down the country, many communities have given outstanding support to our armed forces. That is particularly true for those around the Royal Navy’s three main naval bases at Devonport, Portsmouth and Clyde.

Her Majesty’s naval base Devonport delivers world-class, safe and secure operational capability and support to the fleet. Devonport is home to Britain’s amphibious ships, HMS Ocean, HMS Bulwark and HMS Albion; HMS Protector, the ice patrol ship; survey vessels; half the Royal Navy’s frigates; flag officer sea training, the training hub of the front-line fleet; and the centre of amphibious excellence at Royal Marines Tamar. Devonport is also the main support base for the Royal Navy, particularly with its unique deep maintenance refuelling and defuelling facility for nuclear submarines.

The Devonport base employs 2,500 service personnel and MOD civilians, supports around 400 local firms and generates around 10% of Plymouth’s income. In all, some 25,000 people in Devonport’s travel-to-work area depend on defence for their livelihoods—and in my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport they have a worthy champion.

Portsmouth naval base is home to almost two thirds of the Royal Navy’s surface ships, including the Type 45 destroyers, half the Type 23 fleet and the mine countermeasures and fishery protection squadrons—something close to my heart, as my father, to whom my hon. Friend kindly referred, served on a minesweeper at D-day. HMS Clyde, the Falkland Islands patrol vessel, is also based at Portsmouth, which will be home to the two new Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers, the first of which should arrive in early 2017.

Her Majesty’s naval base Clyde is the naval service’s main presence in Scotland. It is home to the core of the submarine service, including the nation’s nuclear deterrent, and the Royal Navy’s newest and most advanced submarines, HMS Astute and HMS Ambush. From 2020, Clyde will be the Royal Navy’s single integrated submarine operating base and submarine centre of specialisation. The nearby Royal Navy armaments depot at Coulport is responsible for the storage, processing, maintenance and issue of key elements of the UK’s trident deterrent missile system and the ammunitioning of all submarine-embarked weapons.

The 2010 strategic defence and security review confirmed the requirement to maintain all three naval bases. This commitment is evidenced by the recently announced maritime support delivery framework—MSDF.

Turning specifically to that framework, on 13 October my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence notified the House that the Ministry of Defence had awarded two contracts to provide continued support to the management of the UK’s naval bases, and maintenance and repair of Royal Navy warships and submarines to ensure that they are able to meet their operational commitments. The award of these contracts, with a combined value of £3.2 billion, shows a clear indication of our continued commitment to invest in the support provided to the Royal Navy.

MSDF contracts have been awarded to both our industrial partners at naval bases. The contract awarded to Babcock to provide support services at Her Majesty’s naval bases at Devonport and Clyde is valued at £2.6 billion, and the contract awarded to BAE Systems to provide support services at Portsmouth naval base is worth some £600 million. The Babcock MSDF contract covers the 5.5 years to March 2020. The BAE Systems contract covers an initial period of 4.5 years to March 2019, with an option to extend it for an additional year.

We should recognise the contribution that this level of investment will make to the long-term economic health of the nation’s three main naval bases. They will sustain around 7,500 industry jobs across the three naval bases, with 4,000 of those jobs in my hon. Friend’s constituency at Devonport naval base. I thank him for his kind words and I will ensure that his gratitude is passed on personally to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, whom I will see in about an hour. I hope my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport considers that to be telegraphing the message pretty quickly.

There will also be 1,500 jobs at Clyde naval base and more than 2,000 at Portsmouth. MSDF is a modern commercial and financial strategy replacing a number of existing support contracts with one wider contracting framework with each company. We have consolidated several different contracts into two main ones. This new strategy incentivises industry to transform and rationalise to meet the needs of the Royal Navy, to drive continuous performance improvement and to provide a better deal for defence and the taxpayer by delivering significant savings. We estimate that those savings will be of the order of £350 million over the life of the contracts.

Investment is not just about equipment, infrastructure and support contracts. It is also about people and we are investing in them. Like other employers, our armed forces face a challenge in recruiting and retaining personnel, especially in engineering and nuclear cadres. That is being addressed through a range of measures, including affiliations with four university technical colleges. My hon. Friend the Minister for Defence, Equipment Support and Technology—Min DEST—is in discussion with colleagues at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills about a new engineering college. My understanding is that those discussions have not yet concluded and that there is still some way to go, but it may assist my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport to know that it is planned that the next meeting on the project will take place early in the new year.

[Jim Shannon]

During an earlier intervention, I mentioned the take-up of reservists in Northern Ireland where, numerically, it is stronger than anywhere else in the United Kingdom, as the Minister will know. An issue that has been brought to my attention is the resources needed to ensure that they can capture more of the potential recruits in Northern Ireland. Can the Minister give us an indication of what he could do with that?

[Mr Francois]

First, the hon. Gentleman knows a lot about this as he has been a reservist in Northern Ireland; I pay tribute to his service. Secondly, I have visited Northern Ireland at least twice since I have been at the Ministry of Defence and while there I have visited several units, including the 2nd Battalion the Royal Irish Regiment which I believe is one of the best recruited infantry battalions anywhere in the Army Reserve. I was impressed by its spirit and determination and it was one of the best attended Army Reserve centres that I have been to since I have been in this job. We appreciate that in Northern Ireland there is a strong tradition of service in the armed forces and we will do what we can to continue that. I hope that volunteers will continue to come forward enthusiastically, as they have done in the past.

The Government fully understand the importance of our armed forces and the security and protection of our national interests at home and around the world. We absolutely understand the importance of our people and I hope that the House will accept that that is also important for me, as the son of a D-day veteran.

We have sorted out the mess that was defence spending under the previous Government and we have taken hard but necessary decisions. We now look ahead to the realisation of Future Force 2020. We take pride in our battle-winning armed forces that serve to defend this country and its allies. As the son of a man who served in the Royal Navy, I take great pride in the senior service which is so well served by those at Portsmouth, Clyde and Devonport.

Armed Forces Redundancies

Debate between Jim Shannon and Mark Francois

Tuesday 22nd January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Francois]

My hon. Friend is probably the greatest living expert in the House on the reserve forces, so I shall not contradict him here and now. I pay tribute to his work on the reserves commission and to all the preparatory work that he and others, including the vice-chief of the defence staff, undertook in order to put us in the position of having £1.8 billion of resources over 10 years to grow our reserves and to make that a practical reality. I thank him for all that he has done on that.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his reassurance about retraining for those who have life after military service. This is not just about the value of military redundancies and the reallocation of housing, however; it is also about mortgages for new houses and how best those people should use their redundancy packages. What monetary advice will the Minister give to those who receive redundancy packages?

[Mr Francois]

We provide financial advice to members of the armed forces at various stages of their careers. When applicants—and non-applicants—go through the redundancy process, the career transition partnership provides them with considerable assistance. I believe that discussions on their financial situation, and on what jobs they might apply for, form part of that process.

Armed Forces Pensions

Debate between Jim Shannon and Mark Francois

Tuesday 16th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr Mark Francois)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen) on securing this important debate. I acknowledge his genuine concern for the individual cases he has mentioned—several members of his own constituency and one other represented by my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon). I am aware of the particular circumstances of the individual case on which my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury has focused, and I would like to explain the error in pensions policy interpretation that has led to this situation and what has been done to support individuals who might have encountered financial and other difficulties as a result.

For the benefit of the House, I will set out a little of the background, but may I start by saying that when a service person divorces or dissolves a civil partnership, we acknowledge that it can be a difficult and stressful time for both parties? I fully recognise, especially in the current climate, that to have received the news that the amount of pension that was already in payment would reduce, or in the case of deferred pensions would be less than expected, would have been a great cause for concern. If any additional upset or distress has been caused as a result of errors made by the Department, I offer my own very sincere apology to those affected.

By way of introduction to this subject, pension credit members are former spouses or civil partners of members of our armed forces pension schemes who have been awarded a pension sharing order on divorce or on the dissolution of a civil partnership. They are a special category member of the pension scheme to which their former spouse or partner belongs. So while they are members in their own right, the terms of their membership do not directly mirror the pension entitlement of their former spouse or partner.

As I think my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury well understands, the legislation in this area is complex. Occupational pensions would normally become payable from age 65. New legislation was introduced in 2009 that allowed pensions to be brought into payment from the age of 55. The Ministry of Defence’s pensions policy staff wrongly interpreted this legislation as allowing payment from the age of 55 without any reduction for early payment. However, my Department’s reading of the law was mistaken.

The legislation was intended to make early payment an option, but if the pension was to be paid early, a corresponding reduction was also required. The error was first identified in the latter part of 2010 during an exercise to review the regulations for the armed forces pension scheme. As soon as it was identified, work began to amend the regulations of all of the pension schemes affected. My Department’s pensions policy staff instructed the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency to apply the correct policy to new cases from March 2011.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen) for bringing this matter to our attention. He said in his introduction that life circumstances have been substantially affected, so I ask the Minister whether, in the review, he would be prepared to look at those who have been awarded compensation, as it has affected their benefits? Will he consider them as well as the wives and family members as part of the review that the Minister hopes to undertake?

[Mr Francois]

I hope that, by the time I get to the end of my speech, the hon. Gentleman will agree that we are doing our best to look at this issue and try to put it right. He will be able to make that judgment afterwards, but I hope that what I say will address the spirit of what he has asked.

The effect of misinterpreting the legislation was that 127 pensions already in payment to pension credit members required an adjustment to be made—in the majority of cases, this would result in a reduction. In March 2012, the Department notified all those members affected and advised that the changes would come into effect from June this year. The average annual reduction to pensions in payment was approximately £783, although in some cases this will have been significantly higher.

During business questions in April 2012, my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury asked the Leader of the House to seek an apology from the Ministry of Defence and to take corrective action that would, in effect, restore the pensions to the original amount. The Leader of the House asked for urgent inquiries to be made to establish whether any injustice had occurred. My predecessor, the Minister for the Armed Forces, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) wrote to my hon. Friend on 10 May, confirming that while an error had occurred in allowing the pensions to be paid on the wrong basis, legally there was no provision to continue paying the pensions knowingly at the incorrect rate.

My predecessor also confirmed that when the pensions were being adjusted to the correct rate, a calculation error was made by the Department. That further mistake was identified quickly, and revised calculations were issued to those affected as soon as was practicable. When the correct methodology was applied, the reductions in pension amounts in all those cases proved to be less than had previously been indicated. In a few cases pensions actually increased, as did the lump sums received by some pension credit members as part of divorce settlements.

As I am sure the House will agree, when there is no legal entitlement for a pension to continue to be paid at an incorrect rate, the payment must be put right without undue delay. Regrettably, in this instance the matter was not addressed as quickly as it ought to have been, and the payments were allowed to continue. Again, I apologise for that.

In the spring of 2012, when the extent of both errors had been recognised, the Ministry of Defence did its best to put things right. As a first step, approval having been sought from Her Majesty’s Treasury, overpayments to 127 pension credit members totalling more than £176,000 were waived, and no recovery action was pursued. In addition, in recognition of the need for those affected to adjust to a reduced income in future, a period of three months’ grace was given to those whose pensions were already being paid.

For the sake of completeness, the House should know that the same errors also affected 417 deferred pension credit members. Deferred members are those whose pensions have not yet been paid. Those members were also written to in March 2012, and were told that the amount of pension they were expecting to receive at the age of 55 was incorrect. They could still choose to take their pensions early at 55 or they could wait until they were 65, but the amount would need to be recalculated. Once deferred members' pensions had also been calculated on the correct basis, the vast majority of deferred members saw their annual pensions actually increase above the original estimated value.

All those affected were offered an opportunity to discuss their situation with the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency’s welfare service. In March 2012, when the original pension recalculations were completed and the reductions in pension were known, the agency identified those with the most significant reductions and those who might be particularly vulnerable, and arranged for a welfare manager to visit them personally. The visits were completed, whenever possible, throughout March, and ensured that that group of individuals could be in direct contact with a welfare manager should they require further or ongoing support. In each case involving welfare contact, a full case assessment was carried out. It examined individual circumstances, and included potential entitlement to other benefits. Further support and advice have been given to a number of pension credit members, and, when appropriate, they have been helped to apply for further DWP benefits such as disability living allowance and carer’s allowance.

The potential financial difficulties that the adjustment might have caused some individuals was also recognised. Claims for hardship that could be substantiated could be discussed in confidence with the welfare service and submitted for consideration. Five claims for financial hardship, six claims for a consolatory payment and two claims for other financial losses have been received and considered, and compensation has been paid when appropriate. That route remains open to pension credit members, including my hon. Friend’s constituents, who may be facing genuine financial hardship as a result of the changes in their annual pensions. I appreciate that making any such claim is a difficult step to take, but I assure my hon. Friend that it would be handled in a sensitive manner and in conjunction with members of our welfare service. They are there to offer support, and I urge all affected individuals to make contact to see what can be done.

I was pleased that my hon. Friend recognised the efforts that my Department has made in supplying information to his constituent. I assure the House that it has learnt some valuable lessons from its mistakes in this case. Improved processes have been introduced to enhance the training of, and more effective working between, pensions policy and operational delivery staffs. That has included a strong focus on ensuring that the potential implications of future legislative changes are correctly interpreted and fully understood.

I have listened to all that my hon. Friend has said today. While it is perfectly true that an error was made in the interpretation of legislation in this complex area, and that that was further exacerbated by errors in our calculations—for which I have already apologised—I urge the House to recognise that my Department has acted to minimise the effects that the error has caused. We have not sought to recover the overpayments, we have given three months’ grace enabling members to adjust to the reduced amount of pension, we have offered welfare support when it has been required or considered appropriate, and we have made arrangements for claims to be considered when financial hardship has been demonstrated. My hon. Friend has made considerable efforts to support this group of individuals through all possible parliamentary channels. That is evidence of his commitment to champion their cause to seek to ensure that no injustice has taken place.

My hon. Friend has suggested that some form of compensation is due to those affected by these errors. I agree. Although there is no statutory entitlement to maintain these pensions at the full amount, I can assure the House that the MOD has in place a comprehensive process to compensate these individuals where financial hardship has resulted because of the changes to their pension. The process will consider individual cases and assess the impact the errors have had. If individuals are not satisfied with the outcome, it is of course open to them to pursue the matter of any compensation through the legal system.

In conclusion, I urge those individuals who have been affected to engage or re-engage with our welfare system so that we can consider each individual case in the round and do our best to put things right. We must make amends and we will seek to do so.

Question put and agreed to.