Offensive Weapons Act 2019 Surrender and Compensation Scheme
Kit Malthouse Excerpts(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
The Offensive Weapon Act 2019 surrender and compensation scheme commences today. This is an important part of the Government response to tackling serious violence and keeping dangerous weapons off our streets.
The scheme is being run in advance of the Government commencing the prohibitions relating to rapid firing rifles and certain knives and other offensive weapons provided for by the Offensive Weapons Act 2019.
The scheme allows for the surrender to the police of certain knives such as zombie knives and cyclone knives, other offensive weapons, rapid firing rifles and their ancillary equipment and bump stocks. The arrangements apply in England and Wales and extend to Scotland and Northern Ireland with respect to firearms and ancillary equipment only. The lawful owners of these items will be able to claim financial compensation in most cases.
The scheme will run for three months between 10 December 2020 and 9 March 2021 inclusive.
I will place in the Libraries of both Houses a copy of the guidance to the public on the scheme, the claims form, a standard values list of compensation that will be paid for surrendered weapons and a list of designated police stations in every force where weapons can be surrendered. These documents are being made available to the public on gov.uk.
[HCWS636]
Firearms Safety: Public Consultation
Kit Malthouse Excerpts(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
I have today launched a public consultation to seek views on a range of firearms safety issues.
The firearms laws in this country are among the toughest in the world and the Government keep them under constant review to ensure they continue to safeguard the public.
While lawful shooting is well regulated and generally safe, there remains a risk of firearms falling into the hands of criminals, or in the case of air weapons, being misused. The Government are therefore consulting on how to reduce these risks in certain areas of firearms control where concerns have been raised with us by law enforcement and others.
This consultation looks at how we might address the potential threat posed by high muzzle energy rifles through enhanced security arrangements to reduce the risk of them falling into the wrong hands.
We are seeking views on improving the controls on air weapons, including safe storage. This follows on from a Home Office review of the regulation of air weapons initiated after the tragic death of 13-year-old Benjamin Wragge, who was killed accidentally with an air weapon in 2016.
Views are also sought on how we might address vulnerabilities presented by the current exemption from licensing that applies to miniature rifle ranges, and whether to make it an offence to possess component parts of ammunition with intent to unlawfully manufacture complete rounds
The consultation will end on 16 February 2021.
A copy of the consultation paper will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses and is available on the Government’s website at gov.uk.
[HCWS596]
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill
Kit Malthouse ExcerptsWednesday 11th November 2020
(5 years, 3 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Forensic Science Regulator Bill 2019-21 View all Forensic Science Regulator Bill 2019-21 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 11 November 2020 - (11 Nov 2020)
Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)
It is a pleasure for me as well to serve under your chairship, Ms Eagle. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West on having progressed the Bill to Committee stage. I thank the Minister for his letter to me yesterday expressing the Government’s commitment to the Bill, taking the time to clarify their position on the issues raised on Second Reading, and explaining the amendments tabled by the Government.
The Opposition broadly support and welcome the Government amendments, which seek to strengthen the Bill by tackling the issue of the appeals process in clause 8, which goes hand in hand with the new regulatory powers granted to the regulator. We also support the tidying-up amendments to ensure that the clauses do not overlap with other measures that also clarify the scope of the new powers.
The Bill is long overdue. I am sure that all Members will agree that there is a need to put the regulator on a statutory footing to be able to ensure that the standards set by the regulator are met. If enforcement action were not available to the regulator, the standards could not be properly implemented, so we need provision for the regulator to enforce the standards. Forensic science has advanced so much in the last 40 years that it must surely be self-evident that where someone’s liberty is at stake and where the criminal standard is proved beyond reasonable doubt, we should expect high standards from those carrying out forensic science work, and those standards must be capable of being enforced. Voluntary compliance with standards will simply not do.
When we think about Rachel Nickell and Stephen Lawrence, for instance, and how we brought their cases to justice, and how the Birmingham Six were successful in their appeal following new forensic evidence, it is clear why what the Bill sets out to achieve is so important. The integrity of our criminal justice system is at stake; we must not get this wrong. Select Committees in the Commons and the other place have highlighted the pressing need to put the regulator on a statutory footing, and the Government have repeatedly said that they will do so, so I am pleased that they are finally taking steps to make sure that that happens.
In my experience of speaking to forensic scientists in the lead-up to this debate, it is clear that for many of them it is a vocation. In the traditional areas of forensic science there is wide compliance with standards, but that is not the case in other areas such as the newly emerging field of digital forensics, where the level of compliance with ISO standards is less than 30%. Because there is more reliance on digital evidence in criminal justice now, the level of non-compliance to a voluntary standard in that field is very worrying indeed. That is why the measures in the Bill are so important. The outgoing Forensic Science Regulator, Dr Gillian Tully, stated that she can get average compliance across all forensics up to 75% under the current system, but that the final 25% can be achieved only with enforcement powers. That is what the Bill sets out to achieve.
Clauses 2 to 4 establish the code of practice and set out a statutory footing for forensic science standards to be followed. Clauses 5 to 7 give the regulator enforcement powers to ensure that the code is complied with. The powers of investigation include the power to require production of documents and the provision of other information, with the sanction of legal measures in the High Court as an ultimate last resort for failure to comply. The Bill is exactly in line with the Government’s own forensic science strategy of 2016, which recommended giving the regulator statutory powers to identify and sanction forensic service providers who failed to maintain standards. It is long overdue. While I wish it was going further, I accept that the Bill is a welcome starting point.
I want to put on the record my thanks to Dr Gillian Tully for her years of service in the post, her dedication and commitment and the respect which she has commanded, and for leaving the post of regulator in good shape. I thank the Minister for indicating support from the Government and I look forward to the Bill passing on to its next stage-.
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
It is a pleasure to be here, Ms Eagle. I congratulate the hon. Member for Bristol North West on getting the Bill to this stage and on his constructive attitude throughout our discussions and discussions with officials about the amendments. I thank other hon. Members for attending today, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West, who previously made a brave attempt at a similar measure, which was sadly foiled by the parliamentary timetable. Nevertheless, here he is to join in the triumph of the hon. Member for Bristol North West.
I do not intend to rehearse the extensive arguments that were made on Second Reading on the Floor of the House. It was a very long debate with a surprising level of interest from Members across the House on a Friday; it was nevertheless helpful and included many tributes to Dr Tully, which I associate myself with again this morning. She has done a great job and her influence here in the Bill is strong. We wish her well for the future.
The Bill is a key part of our plan to ensure that police, prosecution and defence in criminal proceedings are adequately, sustainably and proportionately served by high-quality scientific analysis of the relevant evidence. The Bill will provide the Forensic Science Regulator with statutory powers, which will enable it to issue compliance notices against forensic providers who are failing to meet the required quality standards, and will protect the criminal justice system. Scientifically robust evidence is one of policing’s most important tools for investigating crime. These powers, to be used as a last resort, are necessary and will support the effective delivery of justice and help restore confidence in the criminal justice system.
By your leave, Ms Eagle, I will take the Committee through our amendments, not least because I am conscious we have an audience at home to whom we have a duty to outline what we are doing as we change the law of the land. I do not propose to go through the various clauses, which have been outlined. It is a relatively simple Bill, establishing a relatively simple principle, but there are some amendments to fine-tune the legislation.
Amendment 1 provides that any person who is required to provide information to the Forensic Science Regulator as part of the regulator’s investigations does not breach any obligation of confidence or any other restriction on the disclosure of data, howsoever imposed. Any person who is required to provide information to the regulator may not be required to disclose information in breach of data protection legislation or the Investigatory Powers Act 2016.
Amendment 2 removes the express power for the first tier tribunal to award costs on an appeal against a refusal to issue a completion certificate, as the tribunal’s power to do so is governed by existing legislation.
Amendment 3 enables the recipients of a compliance notice served by the Forensic Science Regulator to bring an appeal to the first tier tribunal against the decision of the regulator. The amendment also sets out the grounds under which a person may bring such an appeal and the remedies that the first tier tribunal may grant. Grounds for an appeal of a compliance notice are that the decision was based on error of fact, the decision was wrong in law, the decision was unreasonable or that any step or prohibition specified in the notice is unreasonable.
Amendments 4 and 5 remove the express power for the first tier tribunal to award costs on an appeal against the refusal to issue a completion certificate, as the tribunal’s power to do so is already governed by existing legislation. It also makes an amendment consequential to amendment 3. Amendment 6 enables the upper tribunal to suspend a compliance notice pending the conclusion of an appeal for the first tier tribunal to the upper tribunal. Amendment 7 enables the regulator to provide assistance relating to forensic science activities carried on in England and Wales to any person, and not just advice, as currently worded. We hope that amendment will remove ambiguity.
Amendment 8 removes the ability of the forensic science regulator to disclose information to another public authority merely because it is relevant to the other authority’s functions. That means that the regulator is empowered to disclose information only where doing so is necessary to enable or assist the other public authority to carry out its functions. This amendment ensures consistency with data protection legislation.
Amendment 9 amends clause 1 so that the Bill does not affect the exercise by any persons other than the regulator of functions in relation to the regulation of forensic science activities. This is to ensure that the duties and powers of other bodies or regulators who oversee scientific activities, such as in the area of forensic pathology, are not affected by any of the provisions of the Bill.
Amendments 10 and 11 modify the short title and long title of the Bill. to reflect the fact that there are no clauses related to biometrics or a biometric strategy within. This is because the Government could not support the biometrics elements that were initially proposed.
The hon. Member for Bristol North West made a good point about the future of police technology. As I think I outlined on Second Reading, the Government have a manifesto commitment to create a framework within which law enforcement can operate as it adopts new and evolving technology in this area, particularly in relation to technologies that could be deemed to be biometrics, data or forensics, for which we have a variety of regulatory regimes at the moment, and about which we need clarity.
In particular, technology that could be deemed by the public to be intrusive needs to have democratic consent. One of the issues that is raised, for example in clause 3, is that the code of practice that the Forensic Science Regulator will put in place has to come to the House and be laid before the House to get expressed consent by affirmative action, and indeed must be approved by the Secretary of State. We are very keen that people know that, where such technologies are used and are developing fast, we as democratically elected politicians have a say and have influence on an ongoing basis. Some of the legislation is about allowing forensics to have the agility to adopt new technology, but I hope and believe that we will be able to bring those measures forward, certainly before the next election, because it is in our manifesto. I hope that we can do so as soon as possible, because technology is racing away from us.
Scientifically robust evidence is one of policing’s most important tools in investigating crime. These powers to be used as a last resort are necessary, and they will support the effective delivery of justice and help to restore confidence in the criminal justice system.
On that note, I urge the Committee to accept amendments 1 to 11 and to agree that clauses 1 to 13 stand part of the Bill.
Darren Jones
I have nothing further to add, Ms Eagle.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Oral Answers to Questions
Kit Malthouse Excerpts(5 years, 3 months ago)
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Kate Hollern (Blackburn) (Lab)
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
Our police forces have played a critical role during the pandemic and have been quick to respond to the changes and challenges that we all face. The Government have been clear that they will provide police forces with the support, both moral and physical, that they need to continue protecting the public and keeping communities safe through the coronavirus pandemic. This has included £30 million of additional covid surge funding.
Alun Cairns
I welcome the approach that my hon. Friend and the Home Secretary are taking to support brave police officers up and down the country. Lawful protest is the cornerstone of a democracy, but does my hon. Friend agree that it is wholly unacceptable for groups of protesters to come together and put police officers at risk by breaking social distancing rules, given that the police have a responsibility to keep the public safe?
Kit Malthouse
It is no surprise that my right hon. Friend should put the welfare of police officers to the front of his mind, as should everybody in this country. Our police officers are out there on the frontline keeping us all safe, and it is true that a large gathering has the potential to expose them to a greater possibility of infection by the virus than would otherwise be the case. We have seen extraordinary resilience from our police forces throughout the whole pandemic. Indeed, absence has often been below business as usual. That is important because, besides covid compliance enforcement, we still have crime to fight, and if people want officers to be there at the other end of a 999 call and available to come to their aid in an emergency, they need to ensure that they do not expose them to a greater risk of infection than they would otherwise face.
John Howell
In the first lockdown, we saw a number of large demonstrations and protests, including in Henley, that threatened frontline officers. In this lockdown, are we going to abolish them or try to prevent them from happening to protect officers and, indeed, the public?
Kit Malthouse
I know that Henley has seen its fair share of problems over the past few months, and it is no surprise that my hon. Friend should raise them, as he often does, in this House. All large gatherings are now illegal under the coronavirus regulations, and I am afraid that that includes legitimate protests that would otherwise be tolerated. We are facing an extraordinary challenge as a country, with many vulnerable individuals, older citizens and others exposed to risks that they have never seen before, and we all have an individual duty towards our collective health. We hope and believe that the police will be able to encourage the vast majority of our fellow citizens to observe the regulations, but where they do not, enforcement is an option, as we have seen over the past weekend.
Kate Hollern [V]
Lancashire has 750 fewer police officers than it did in 2010. Let us compare that with Surrey, which has only eight fewer officers. The discrepancy is because Lancashire is more reliant on Government grant than Surrey, which, as a relatively affluent area, is more reliant on council tax precepts. Given that the Government have promised to recruit 20,000 police officers in the next two years, when is the Department going to recruit them and base them in areas that have seen the biggest cuts, such as Lancashire?
Kit Malthouse
I am pleased that our pledge to recruit 20,000 extra police officers is so popular, particularly in Lancashire. The hon. Lady will be pleased to know that 100 of the 153 that were allocated to Lancashire out of the first 6,000 had already been recruited by 30 September. They join the 5,834 that we have recruited towards our 6,000 target, which was due by next March; as Members can work out from the maths, we are well ahead of target. As for where those officers are based, that is a matter for the chief constable, who makes that operationally independent decision, in collaboration with the police and crime commissioner in the county.
Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab)
Let me start by thanking the Minister for meeting me and the Daniel Fox Foundation, which is based in St Helens, does great work on knife crime in my constituency and was very encouraged by his support. We know the impact of coronavirus on our health and the economy, but it also has serious implications for public safety and the country’s security. There were anti-lockdown protests on the streets this weekend, but we see deliberate, harmful disinformation online all day, every day. So when ensuring that the police have what they need to meet all covid-related challenges that they face, what resources is he providing to them and the security and intelligence services to robustly counter the false online conspiracy theories, which are designed by nefarious elements, at home and abroad, to undermine our collective efforts to beat this virus?
Kit Malthouse
First, let me say that I enjoyed our meeting with the Daniel Fox Foundation. I am pleased that in the hon. Gentleman’s part of the world, St Helens, as in the rest of the country, we are standing shoulder to shoulder in the fight against knife crime. Sadly, we are having to do so once again, but it is a fight that we will and must win—I am sure there will be more about it later today. On misinformation and disinformation, he is right to say that unpleasant and untrue stories are circulating, whether anti-vaccine stories or the crazy stuff about 5G. Both the National Crime Agency and the security and intelligence services are engaged with our partners in the private sector in removing as much of that disinformation as we can. We have a role to play in this House as well, in standing together as democratically elected politicians and recognising that we charge others with assisting us in providing advice and data and that we must respect and acknowledge their views as being the basis on which decisions are made legitimately. That is the right way forward. I welcome the Opposition Front-Bench team’s support on that thus far, and indeed into the future.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
Police community support officers are a valued part of the police workforce as a key liaison point between local communities and policing, and we are all, I know, grateful for their service. Decisions about the best use of resources at the frontline, including the deployment of PCSOs, are for chief constables and democratically accountable police and crime commissioners based on their local knowledge and experience.
Daniel Zeichner
The Minister will know that Cambridgeshire has recently announced that the number of PCSOs is to be halved. The reason, in the words of the chief constable, was
“to ensure budget gaps can be met next year”.
Will the Minister do the right thing: bridge the gap and allow Cambridgeshire to keep our PCSOs?
Kit Malthouse
I am very pleased to say that we have already started augmenting the resources available to Cambridgeshire police, with an award of £10.9 million last year, in the largest police settlement for a decade. Happily, it has already recruited 62 of the 99 allocated police officers, which I know will be making a huge difference in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, as they will across the whole of the county.
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
We recognise the importance of a timely response to 101 calls and the role that technology can play in the relationship between the police and the public, which is why we are supporting national programmes developing new ways for the public to contact the police. Gloucestershire constabulary is a key beneficiary of the Single Online Home for policing, a digital 101 service.
Mr Robertson [V]
I thank the Minister for that response, but the actual response on the 101 service is quite often far too long, and people then revert to the 999 service, putting undue pressure on it. I have a meeting with the chief constable of Gloucestershire on Wednesday, and I will certainly make those points to him. Is there any more the Government can do to improve the 101 service?
Kit Malthouse
It is no surprise that a Member of Parliament who is himself very accessible to his constituents on an almost 24/7 basis should want the same for the police. While I would love to sit behind my desk in Whitehall and manage these things from the centre, the truth is that the response times and the disposition of 101 is a matter for the police and crime commissioner and the chief constable in his county. I know that, if he meets them, they will listen to him carefully, because it is extremely important, as he says, that when people pick up the phone to the police—whether it is the 101 service or the 999 service—they do get a good and efficient response. There is nothing that can undermine the confidence of a person in their police force than getting just a recorded message or, indeed, a call that is never answered. Some of that solution is technological and we think that much can be achieved through the Single Online Home, and I urge him to explore it as a reporting mechanism. I wish him good luck with his meeting, and look forward to hearing the conclusions of it.
Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con)
Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con)
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
We are taking action on every level to cut knife crime. This week sees the instigation of Operation Sceptre—a nationally organised week of intensification against that crime. We are also investing millions of pounds in prevention and early intervention to stop young people being drawn into violence in the first place.
Suzanne Webb
In 2017, my constituent Ryan Passey was killed with a knife inside a nightclub in Stourbridge. Absurdly, the perpetrator was acquitted. I am grateful for the work done by the Government so far on sentencing, but does the Minister agree that we need to be tough not just on sentencing, but on all aspects that have thus far allowed the perpetrators of knife crime to go free?
Kit Malthouse
My hon. Friend raises a terrible case. The family of Mr Passey have our deep condolences. Over the past 12 years, I have met far too many parents of children and young people who have sadly been murdered and killed on our streets and in nightclubs, often by people who they regard as friends. Back in the early part of the previous decade, we thought we had beaten knife crime, but unfortunately it is back. My hon. Friend is quite right that we need to concentrate on every aspect of this—from enforcement through to prevention and, frankly, long-term work with young people that shows them that carrying a knife is dangerous not only to others, but fundamentally to themselves. There is a better way. We all need to stand shoulder to shoulder with my hon. Friend and her constituents to show young people that way in life.
Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)
Nicola Richards (West Bromwich East) (Con)
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
West Midlands police are receiving up to £620.4 million in funding this year—an increase of more than £49 million on last year. We have also invested £12 million over two years in bolstering their capacity to respond to violent crime swiftly and robustly and given £6.7 million for a violence reduction unit across the west midlands to address the root causes of crime.
Nicola Richards
Recently, West Bromwich town centre has seen an appalling spate of crime, and I thank the Home Secretary for her support on this so far. Last week, I held a meeting with the town’s main stakeholders and local police to see what we can do. Will the Minister continue to work with me and the police to put more officers on our streets, to make West Bromwich East safer, so that we can be proud of our town centre once again?
Kit Malthouse
I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing this to my attention. I had a look at some of the incidents that have taken place in West Bromwich town centre, and it is a shocker, to be honest. Hopefully, using the convening power of her office, she can pull all the various groups together, and the police and crime commissioner and the chief constable will pay attention too. I recently had a good meeting with West Midlands police to discuss their general violence reduction, with a particular focus on reducing murder. It sounds like West Bromwich could do with some attention, and I am grateful to her, as I know her constituents will be, for bringing that focus to an area that obviously needs it.
Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con)
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
The police funding settlement for 2020-21 set out the biggest increase in funding for the policing system since 2010, with Dorset police receiving up to £144.3 million in funding. That is an increase of £8.8 million on the previous year. We are giving the police the resources they need to fight crime and keep the public safe.
Chris Loder
Can I thank the Minister very much for his answer? My constituency of West Dorset is served very ably by Dorset police, and they have historically managed their finances very well, but in the national funding formula, we do not fare quite so well, being below average, with 48%, compared with the average of 64%. Could he give me some reassurance that the police in Dorset are valued as much as other police forces around the country?
Kit Malthouse
My hon. Friend need have no fear: every officer and every force in the country stand in equal regard by the Home Office, although I know that Dorset police are close to his heart. I will say two things. First, it is very important that the good people of Dorset elect a Conservative police and crime commissioner in May next year who can continue that good financial management. Secondly, I remind him of the commitment that I gave at the Department’s last questions session. While the police funding formula is currently the best basis we have for allocating funds across all forces in England and Wales, it is a bit elderly, and we have undertaken to review it before the next election. During that review, I know that he, along with all the other Members of Parliament from Dorset, will be lobbying hard to ensure that that beautiful county comes out of it well.
Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)
Protections for Emergency Service Workers
Kit Malthouse Excerpts(5 years, 3 months ago)
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The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray, in what is a very well-timed debate, given the increasing period of difficulty and complexity the whole country is going into, which will yet again present challenges for our frontline emergency workers, not least the police. I am grateful to Members for their heartfelt contributions and their recognition of the amazing job the police have done during the lockdown, alongside their emergency worker colleagues.
Our brave workers, across all emergency services, do an extraordinary job in the most difficult of situations, keeping us safe, day in and day out. Those jobs can be tough. Many of them face more danger in a week than most of us will see in our lifetime. I am only too aware of the sacrifices that our police officers and other emergency workers make to protect us. They face the danger so we do not have to. That has never been more apparent than over the past few months. They continue to serve our country courageously, day after day, and I cannot speak highly enough of the bravery, commitment and sacrifice they make each day during these difficult times. As somebody who has spent a lot of my adult life involved in policing, I have seen that on a particular and singular basis on the frontline, many times.
Tom Hunt
I am glad that the hon. Member for Croydon Central (Sarah Jones) mentioned spitting and the appalling situation of police officers being spat at, particularly with covid about. It has caused great anxiety for many police officers. Will my hon. Friend assure me that there are robust punishments in place for those individuals who use covid as a weapon?
Kit Malthouse
I am just coming to that point, if my hon. Friend will bear with me for a moment. I hope that my speech will cover most of the issues that have been raised during the debate, but I will come to one or two questions at the end.
A number of Members made the point that it is completely right that we should support and protect our emergency workers to the greatest extent possible. It goes without saying that an assault on an emergency worker is completely unacceptable in any circumstances. There is no excuse for it—there is no excuse in background, circumstance, resourcing or any other wider issue.
Throughout the year, we have heard reports of people deliberately spitting and coughing on emergency workers in an attempt to weaponise the virus against those who look to protect us. Such behaviour is utterly disgraceful, and personally I cannot understand what is going through the twisted mind of somebody to do such a monstrous thing. It is vital that those offenders face the full force of the law. Their actions constitute an assault.
Throughout the year, we have seen examples of tough sentences imposed on those using coronavirus as a threat against emergency workers. In April, an individual was sentenced to a total of two years in prison for assaulting police officers, including biting and coughing at them, claiming they were infected with coronavirus. Someone who deliberately coughed at a police community support officer and assaulted another officer was sentenced to six months’ imprisonment a week after the incident.
However, the Government want to go further and send a clear message that those kinds of attacks will not be tolerated. That is why we recently announced our intention to legislate to double the maximum penalty for assaults on emergency workers from 12 months to two years—an example that I hope colleagues north of the border in Scotland will follow.
We must also look at what happens when much more serious attacks take place—so serious that in some instances they have claimed the lives of those who put themselves in harm’s way to protect us. The deaths of Sergeant Matt Ratana, whose moving funeral I had the privilege of attending virtually this morning, and PC Andrew Harper epitomise the kind of bravery and extraordinary sacrifice that will not be forgotten. We are determined to do everything in our power to protect those who put our safety before their own, by ensuring that the police have the tools and resources they need to keep themselves and us safe.
The Home Secretary and Lord Chancellor were pleased to meet Andrew Harper’s widow, Lissie, who has been mentioned by a number of Members, to discuss Harper’s law, and I hope to meet her myself soon. We will continue to work with the Ministry of Justice to ensure that assaults on emergency workers are handled with appropriate severity across the criminal justice system, and that includes the Crown Prosecution Service and the judiciary. It might be interesting to compare the sentences given for assaults on police officers, for example, with those given for assaults on judges.
Dealing with traumatic incidents and helping people who often experience traumatic events can have real consequences, and not only for the victims. These are not jobs that can be left at the office: the pressure of the role will leave its mark on a person’s personal and family life. That is why the Government have invested £7.5 million in a new national police wellbeing service. Following two years of development and piloting, that wellbeing service was launched in April last year, providing evidence-based guidance, advice, tools and resources that can be accessed by forces, as well as individual officers and staff. There is an emphasis on prevention and on helping forces to identify mental health issues early through psychological screening, giving officers access to support before a problem takes hold. The wellbeing service offers a wide range of services, from practical workshops to individual guidance.
However, as hon. Members have mentioned, the Government are going to go even further to ensure that our police get the support and protection they need. We have accelerated work to introduce a police covenant, and remain absolutely committed to ensuring that it has a meaningful impact on those working within, or retired from, policing roles, whether paid or as a volunteer. We expect to establish a robust governance structure in the coming months to drive progress, and policing partners have already been involved in those discussions. The covenant will be enshrined in law, and the Home Secretary will have a duty to report annually on progress. Our focus will be on health and wellbeing, physical protection, and support for families. We will continue to work closely with policing partners to ensure the covenant has a lasting impact on our police.
Those of us who have been out with police officers, as hopefully many Members have been, know that they confront violent situations every day to keep the public safe. The recent review of officer and staff safety conducted by the National Police Chiefs’ Council highlighted a number of areas where improvements can be made and where partners can work together to improve the protections for our police. To carry out their vital roles and stay safe, it is essential that police are equipped with the right protection, training and tools, including the latest, most accurate Taser, body armour, and body-worn cameras, as the review quite rightly highlighted. This, along with the police covenant, provides an opportunity for us to make a significant difference to the lives of those working in policing and their families.
However, we should not forget that there are other emergency service workers who are worthy of protection, not least in the NHS. The NHS violence reduction strategy aims to protect those workers against deliberate violence and aggression from patients, their families and the public, and to ensure offenders are punished quickly and effectively. We also know from the tragic events of Grenfell Tower and from major incidents like Whaley dam the extent of the physical and psychological challenges our firefighters can face, as hon. Members have referenced.
In 2018, the Government launched the fire and rescue national framework, directing all fire and rescue services to have in place a people strategy to support their staff, including a specific focus on mental health and wellbeing. I am pleased that this has inspired positive action, and that the National Fire Chiefs Council’s wellbeing board continues to instigate positive change across the sector, focusing on prevention, early intervention and individual support.
The emergency services are among the most selfless and courageous members of our society. They deserve every support and protection we can give them, and I know it will have been heartening for them to hear the unequivocal support they have received from every Member who has spoken this evening.
Policing in South-West London
Kit Malthouse Excerpts(5 years, 4 months ago)
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The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) on securing this important debate, and I am grateful to the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) for her contribution.
I have to say that I am surprised that in more than 12 months as Minister for Crime and Policing, this is the first Adjournment debate that I have done on crime. There have been lots of other debates about process-type issues, or issues of concern to Members, but not about crime, which is a frustration I find myself expressing about much of the policing family. There is lots of talk about process, computers and human beings, and all that is very important, but in the end the product, which is fighting crime, has to be our primary concern.
I am therefore pleased that the hon. Member for Richmond Park has raised this issue from her part of the world. Although it is a very safe part of London and, indeed, a very safe part of the country, that does not mean that we should not pay attention to the concerns of her residents. She should be assured that wherever and however a crime occurs in this country, it is a personal offence to me that it has, and I will be stretching every sinew in the time that I am allowed in this job to do something about it.
I start by offering my congratulations and thanks, along with the hon. Lady’s, to Chief Superintendent Benatar, who is moving on to pastures new. Presumably she is no relation to the pop star of the same surname from my youth, Pat Benatar, whom the hon. Lady may well know; it is an unusual name that sticks in the memory. I also welcome Lis Chapple, who is coming along hopefully to do as fine a job. We should recognise that south-west London in particular has been rocked by a tragedy in the policing family—a terrible, heinous crime that occurred a couple of weeks ago with the death of a police sergeant in Croydon. That is deeply, deeply regrettable and is something that we all mourn.
Moving on to the broad issues, the speech that I was given to read out today, as Ministers are wont to do in Adjournment debates, is not entirely appropriate to what was raised by the hon. Lady, notwithstanding the steers that were given to us. I am going to do what I think is known technically in the trade as winging it.
Broadly, I think the hon. Lady raised four issues. On funding, I am sure she will understand that we stand apart slightly from the police funding in London. The best we can do is to provide significant and generous funding to the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime through the police funding settlement, and that is exactly what we did last year. The overall police funding package went up by about £1 billion to £15.2 billion, and a very significant proportion of that went to London. Much of that was to fund an uplift in police officers, as part of the 20,000 extra police officers we will be recruiting over the next three years. The Met allocation is 1,369, which is a lot. I know that recruitment has gone extremely well in the Metropolitan police, and numbers are up 4-point-something per cent. year on year. I am pleased to say that over 92% of those police officers are dedicated to frontline duties, which is a very high proportion.
The hon. Lady rightly pressed me, and there will be more to come. That number is just the Met’s share of the first 6,000, and there are another 14,000 to recruit. I am hopeful we will be announcing the allocation of those soon. It has obviously got wrapped up in the discussions with Treasury colleagues in the spending review, but our commitment to recruiting those 20,000 is rock solid. Indeed, it is a bigger job than 20,000, because we actually have to recruit about 45,000 to backfill those who are retiring during that period to make sure we reach an extra 20,000. That will give us an extremely high number of police officers, not least in the capital.
The hon. Lady raised the issue of covid being a distraction for the police and said it has been a huge burden for them, and indeed it has. The police have frankly done a brilliant job of dealing with a fast-moving and very complex backdrop to their job. They have had to embrace a new role over the past few months that they have never done before. They have done it with alacrity and happily.
The resilience of the police has been incredible, frankly. In many parts of the country, absence in police forces has dropped below pre-covid levels. It is almost as if police officers across the country wanted to step forward and do their bit at this time of national crisis in a way that they perhaps have not done in the past. Many a detective has squeezed into their uniform and got out on the frontline to do their bit for the national effort to fight crime.
There have also been other impacts. Some of the demonstrations that we have seen, especially in central London, have had an impact on the police, particularly in terms of the extractions that the hon. Lady mentioned, not least because many of those disputes take place out of normal hours—at weekends or whatever—and require overtime, which mean that rest days or holidays are missed that have to be caught up. There becomes a backlog of time not spent policing that is absorbed by that public order duty. We also find that has an impact on the workforce, because, frankly, they become tired. If an officer is busy out fighting crime and then they are called to a demonstration in central London to do their public order duty, often it means they miss that downtime with their friends, their family, or whatever it might be. They become tired and weary, and that has to be rectified, too.
Sarah Olney
The Minister makes the point about demonstrations this summer, and obviously I am aware that there have been quite a few. I just wonder whether there have been significantly more than there normally are in any given year. Should the resourcing plan perhaps not take account of that, in as much as if people are being called to these additional duties, the resourcing plan should have enough in it to reflect, as he says, the rest days that they then need to catch up on?
Kit Malthouse
I do not think that there have been appreciably more demonstrations. In fact, we may well have seen years in the past when there were bigger demonstrations. However, a lot of the demonstrations this year took place against the backdrop of covid and, as they say in policing, had “potential” and therefore required that a greater potential resource might be appropriate. If the police have intelligence or a sense that a public order situation might get a little out of hand, frisky, or even turn violent, there will often be police officers held in reserve elsewhere, away from the action, to be called up, should they be required. They may well be wearing more body armour or protective equipment just in case things, as they say, kick off. We have seen that once or twice this summer, sadly.
To be honest, that is part of the regret about some of these demonstrations, well-meaning though they may have been, such as the Extinction Rebellion demonstrations that cause so much difficulty. They do absorb police resource—I do not think people realise how much—and very many of those officers are drawn from neighbourhood policing and neighbourhood teams. They are trained to public order standards so that they can be extracted—or abstracted, if you like—and that does cause problems in neighbourhoods, not just on the day, but in the catch-up, because it absorbs rest days, holidays, training days and other days that are naturally part of a police officer’s cycle of existence. There is an element of tail—of absorption —that causes a problem. However, the Metropolitan police—we have been in constant touch with the force, on an almost daily basis—has done a fantastic job from top to bottom over the last few months. It has been really fantastic and I pay tribute to it for the work that it has done.
The other area that the hon. Lady mentioned is antisocial behaviour. While she is hearing from her residents that they have a particular experience that is causing them concern over antisocial behaviour, we have seen a fall in antisocial behaviour across the country over the last few years. During the covid lockdown, the Office for National Statistics could not do its standard crime survey, so it was doing telephone surveys throughout it on crime. The ONS’s results show that about 20% of the people who they called during the lockdown witnessed antisocial behaviour during the three months of lockdown, but, at the same time, 21% said that they saw a reduction in antisocial behaviour during that period, so nationally, the figure is broadly flat. Nevertheless, I understand that in a low crime area, such as Richmond or Twickenham, the impact of antisocial behaviour is amplified because people are used to existing with a much quieter background in that leafy part of London. Antisocial behaviour does have that impact.
While the police should and could play their part, I ask that both the hon. Member for Richmond Park and the hon. Member for Twickenham make sure that their local authority is making full use of the tools that were given to communities and local authorities in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014. There is a suite of tools there, such as civil injunctions, criminal behaviour orders, public space protection orders, community protection notices, dispersal powers and closure powers, all of which could be used. Some of the antisocial behaviour to which the hon. Member for Richmond Park referred is related to licensed premises and the consumption of alcohol, and making sure that local authorities have both their licensing policy and enforcement in good shape is critical to success.
Sarah Olney
Perhaps it would be helpful to clarify that some of what I described in my speech as antisocial behaviour has been referred to by the police, I believe, as unlicensed musical events or in that sort of category. It is my understanding that there has been a big increase in that across London during the summer, particularly as there have been no licensed musical events such as Glastonbury or other festivals, and nightclubs have all been closed. A lot of that activity has moved to open spaces. That is the experience that we have been having in Richmond and in Twickenham.
Kit Malthouse
Yes, the hon. Lady is right. We have seen a surge in unlicensed music events across the whole country as two things happened. First, young people have a natural desire to be sociable, but for them, the rock concert/festival schedule was abandoned. However, at the same time, in one or two instances, there is perhaps initial evidence to show that those involved in the drugs industry are co-ordinating these events as a natural place in which they can sell drugs. Dealing with that was behind the regulations that the Government introduced to impose £10,000 fixed penalty notices on those who organise such gatherings. As she will know, a number of those penalty notices have been handed out. With unlicensed music events, the police have powers to confiscate equipment, and they very often do so. Sadly, however, despite the fact that such equipment costs several thousand pounds, they are under a duty to return it in time. I did wonder whether we could either take our time returning it or find some other use for it, to act as a suitable disincentive to organising such events, but the £10,000 fixed penalty notice was apparently more powerful.
Since then, there has been a reduction in unlicensed music events. Some of that has related to—let us say—assertive action by the police, and the change in the regulatory environment. It has also, frankly, related to the weather. As the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), who is sitting in the Whip’s place, will know—he has been, in the past, a special constable of some note—the police often refer to their greatest friend and ally in fighting crime as PC Rain. The weather will, we hope, have a depressive effect on such events over the autumn.
Alongside all the powers, however, the hon. Lady is quite right to say that there is an urgent desire in London, in particular, and in the whole country for a greater sense of police presence. People want much more assurance that public space is governed and controlled. That desire is a large part of what lies behind our pledge to recruit 20,000 more police officers.
Munira Wilson
I want to pick up on the point about councils being equipped with tools to tackle antisocial behaviour. Will the Minister clarify whether local councils have also been given the funding to do so? We know that local government has suffered cuts year on year. In Richmond, where there has been a lot of trouble in green spaces, the council has tried to step up its own park patrols where possible, but it has been hampered by a lack of finance, which has been hit by covid.
Kit Malthouse
I recognise the issue that the hon. Lady raises, but as a former cabinet member for finance in a London borough for five years, although I understand the funding pressures on councils, much of their financial fate lies in their own hands. During my time in local government in the capital, we saw, let us say, variable performance from a financial point of view. There were those who managed their finances well, and those who did it not so well.
I have not looked recently at the balance sheet of Richmond Council, and I would be happy to have that discussion if the hon. Lady wishes. Nevertheless, it is not terribly expensive to put in place, for example, a public spaces protection order. Such an order could be used somewhere like a park, where antisocial behaviour is taking place. The order can insist either that certain activities do not take place or, indeed, that certain things should take place, and the breaching of it is an offence. If Richmond Council wanted to focus on that, I am sure that it could. The council has, obviously, changed hands politically a number of times, but in my day it was never known for being on the back foot, under either Conservative or Liberal Democrat control, when it came to protecting its residents. I hope and believe that it will step forward this time as well.
Both hon. Members raised the issue of privately funded police forces. I am a Conservative, and I believe in freedom of association. I would therefore not want to restrict the ability of private individuals to gather together to protect themselves in a particular way. We see that happening in other parts of our world. For example, the Jewish community in this country has its own protection organisation called the Community Security Trust, which mounts guards and protection outside synagogues every Saturday because they are a particular community who feel that they might be targeted when they are on their way to worship their God. That is legal, allowable and perfectly reputable, as far as I am concerned.
Sarah Olney
Does the Minister not accept that there is a difference between arranging a private security firm to protect private property and arranging a privately funded police force to patrol a public area?
Kit Malthouse
Actually, the Community Security Trust is not a security organisation. It is a voluntary organisation and, as I understand it, members of the community volunteer to be part of the CST to protect their own community. It does require some funding, but it is nevertheless very organised and they train very well. It is a remarkable organisation. In fact, it has worked with other faith groups and talked to them about their own safety, because sadly, many faith groups are often the target of extremists.
Of course, we have private security firms who cater to businesses and others at events and concerts—like those rock concerts that have not happened this summer—and who do that kind of work, so I am hesitant to condemn it. However, the situation that the hon. Lady is talking about, which we have seen elsewhere in the capital, not least in St John’s Wood over the past 10 or 12 years, is undesirable. It would be great to be in a position where people did not feel a compulsion to do those things because the police presence was such that they felt a sense of governed space and security, and my hope and ambition is that, over the next three years, that is exactly where we will get to.
Question put and agreed to.
Oral Answers to Questions
Kit Malthouse Excerpts(5 years, 4 months ago)
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Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
The Home Office, the National Police Chiefs’ Council, the College of Policing and all forces are working flat out to recruit 20,000 new police officers, supported by £700 million from the taxpayer.
Mark Menzies [V]
This Government were elected on a pledge to recruit 20,000 more frontline police officers—something that is very important to people in Fylde. Will my hon. Friend update the House on how many people have joined the police since the recruitment drive was launched? Will he confirm that we are on target to deliver on that promise?
Kit Malthouse
I well understand my hon. Friend’s impatience for his area to see an increase in police officers. That impatience is shared by me, the Home Secretary and probably everybody in the country. He will be pleased to hear that we have now had more than 100,000 applicants to be police officers and recruited a little over 4,300. We are ahead of schedule.
Mark Pawsey
With the tragic death of rugby player Sergeant Matt Ratana, we are reminded of the very dangerous work that police officers do on our behalf. Will the Minister join me in paying tribute to Warwickshire’s Conservative police and crime commissioner, Philip Seccombe, who has used his own powers on top of additional Government funding to bring in an extra 216 officers, with new officers in vehicle crime teams and enhanced safer neighbourhood teams, more detectives and more 999 response officers?
Kit Malthouse
My hon. Friend is quite right: it has been a sombre weekend for us all, with the tragic events of Friday reinforced by Police Memorial Day just yesterday. I am pleased to congratulate Philip Seccombe, with whom I have had many meetings in the last year or so, on his efforts to increase the number of police officers out there, which will make everybody in Warwickshire and, indeed, across the country, safer.
Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con)
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
The Government have announced a police funding settlement that sets out the biggest increase in funding for the policing system in a decade. In total, we are increasing the funding available to the policing system by more than £1 billion this year.
Dr Hudson [V]
Rural and wildlife crime sadly continues to affect our local communities. Theft of farm machinery, burglary, animal theft and cruelty, antisocial behaviour and vandalism are just some of the issues facing our rural areas. Cumbria has the excellent Cumbria Farm Watch scheme, a partnership between people and Cumbria police. What reassurances can my hon. Friend give my constituents in Penrith and The Border that the Government are supporting the police and communities in the fight against rural and wildlife crime?
Kit Malthouse
As a rural Member, I know exactly the type of concern to which my hon. Friend refers; it is shared by people in my constituency. Obviously, the provision of significant extra numbers of police officers to Cumbria police will help the chief constable in deliberations about where to put those resources. Although that is an operational matter, one would hope that some of it will be devoted to rural crime. I certainly hope that will happen in Hampshire. On wildlife crime, I am pleased to report that we are putting £136,000 into the National Wildlife Crime Unit so that it can continue its valuable work.
Danny Kruger
The extra policing that my hon. Friend mentioned is very good news. In Wiltshire, we are thrilled because we are getting more than 100 new police officers for Wiltshire police and even more police and community support officers to help with all the crime we import from Hampshire. Does my hon. Friend share my concern that, so often, funding formulas designed in London have urban places in mind and sometimes that sadly applies to police funding formulas as well? Will he update the House on any work that is being done to review the police funding formula to ensure that rural areas are properly treated?
Kit Malthouse
I am grateful to my constituency neighbour for his question, though not for the aspersions he casts on my fellow county residents. I thought crime flowed in the other direction. Nevertheless, my hon. Friend is right that the formula, while the best available funding formula we have, is quite old now and needs to be reviewed. It contains several indicators that skew funding towards urban areas and in the next couple of years we have to reflect on the fact that crime has changed and that rural areas are experiencing more crime than they have perhaps been used to. Doubtless the Home Secretary and I will work on some form of funding formula review before the next election.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
We are determined to drive down crime in rural and urban areas, which is why we are recruiting an extra 20,000 police officers and, by the way, investing £85 million in the Crown Prosecution Service to ensure that the criminal justice system can deal with the results.
Andrew Griffith
Will the Minister join me in thanking the Sussex rural crime team, which I long campaigned for and which was set up by police commissioner Katy Bourne in June this year? It is now doing excellent work, protecting our rural communities, farmers and isolated towns and villages in Arundel and South Downs.
Kit Malthouse
I am aware that my hon. Friend has made a huge impact in his constituency since he was elected recently and that this is a result of something that he has campaigned on for some time. I applaud Katy Bourne—who is one of our leading police and crime commissioners and is always innovating—on the establishment of this unit, and I hope that it will make a big difference.
I am reminded with rural crime of that interesting philosophical question: if a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? If a crime happens and no one reports it, do the police see it? I urge my hon. Friend to encourage his constituents, particularly in rural areas—we have had a number of questions on rural crime today—to report every single crime, because modern policing is driven by data, and if a crime is not reported, as far as the police are concerned, it probably never happened.
Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab)
As a Croydon MP and the shadow Policing Minister, I pay tribute to Sergeant Matt Ratana for his years of service in my community. Our community spoke as one on Friday both in our grief, but also in our gratitude for the many years of service from a wonderful officer, who was the very best of us, and we will not forget him.
Community policing is the bedrock of our communities, but it has suffered deep cuts. Those cuts have an acute impact in our rural areas, where vulnerability and isolation can be particularly severe. Only one in 14 crimes leads to court proceedings. Most victims get no justice at all. The Government have overseen a cut in the number of police community support officers by nearly 50%, and there are no plans to replace them. What does the Minister say to the victims of crime who deserve justice but under this Government are just not getting it?
Kit Malthouse
I acknowledge the hon. Lady’s words about the awful events of Friday. I know that it hit home hard in Croydon for her; I think she was due to visit that very custody suite that day or the following day. It was a terrible time, and hopefully justice will follow that awful crime.
On the hon. Lady’s wider point, she and I have had this discussion a number of times over the Dispatch Box. Although repetition is not infrequent in this Chamber, I urge her to reflect on the fact that for the first half of the coalition and then Conservative Government, we were struggling with a difficult financial situation nationally, and crime was falling. That required a different kind of response to the one we see today. She is right to point to the fact that we have seen a rise in crime over the past couple of years, albeit different kinds of crime from those we have seen previously. That is why we are massively increasing police capacity and bringing enormous focus, through the National Policing Board, the Crime Performance Board, which I lead, and the Strategic Change and Investment Board at the Home Office, to the national systemic problems that she raises in the hope that, over the next three years, we can drive them down significantly.
Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP)
Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
I have said before in this Chamber and will say it again: in my view, anybody who lays a malicious finger on a police officer, or indeed any emergency worker, should face swift and severe retribution through the criminal justice system. We recently announced our intention to double the maximum sentence for assaults on emergency workers.
Huw Merriman
I am encouraged by the Minister’s response. Last week, Sussex MPs met the south-east coast ambulance service team, and we were disturbed to hear of an increase in assaults where drink and drugs seems to be a factor. Can the Minister, through his Department and across Government, work to ensure that when it comes to policing, prosecution and sentencing of these individuals, drink or drug abuse is an aggravating factor, not a mitigating factor, and that we stand by our ambulance personnel and ensure that those who abuse them go behind bars?
Kit Malthouse
There is absolutely no excuse for assaulting any kind of emergency worker, whether one is on drink or drugs or completely sober. I have to confess that I do not comprehend what goes on in the twisted mind of someone who would commit an assault, particularly on somebody in an ambulance who is coming to the medical aid of a fellow citizen. My hon. Friend raises a good point about aggravating factors. When we shortly consider, hopefully, the doubling of the sentence in legislation, I will certainly take that into account. The Sentencing Council is about to start a review of the sentencing of assault, and I urge him and others to make a submission to that forum as to aggravating factors.
Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP)
Point of Order
Kit Malthouse Excerpts(5 years, 4 months ago)
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The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to bring the House’s attention to the fact that a police officer was sadly shot and killed overnight in Croydon. The details are still emerging, but the Home Secretary has spoken to the Commissioner of the Metropolitan police and offered the help and support of the Home Office as the force comforts family, friends and colleagues and investigates this crime. We ask our police officers to do an extraordinary job. The fact that one of them has fallen in the line of duty is a tragedy for the entire nation. I know that the entire House will offer their condolences to his family, friends and colleagues. May he rest in peace, and may justice follow this heinous crime.
Mr Speaker
I thank the Minister for that point of order. It is shocking news. This should never happen to the people who protect us to make us safe. All our thoughts and prayers are with the family and friends and the police community.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill
Kit Malthouse ExcerptsFriday 25th September 2020
(5 years, 4 months ago)
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Darren Jones
I could not agree more with the hon. Gentleman. I am pleased to see him in the Chamber today, given his previous valiant efforts to try to secure a similar outcome in the previous Parliament. He makes an important point in respect of digital forensics, which, we know from the evidence reported to us in the House, has been in increasing demand, given the nature and complexity of modern crimes. There also seems to be a lack of expertise, skills and capacity to deal with that. There have been incidences reported in the media where victims have, for example, had all their data on their mobile phones downloaded at the point at which they have reported a crime. There are pretty significant questions about whether that is the right balance and approach: what the framework is around that, what happens with all that data going forward and whether that is the right approach to take. That, of course, comes to the questions around accredited standards for digital forensics.
With the market dominated by a few large players, and niche processes or specialised capabilities often, in practice, offered by a single small provider, the cost of achieving and retaining certification is frequently seen as a greater impediment to competitiveness than the ability to demonstrate the quality of their work. With the majority of affected forensic work conducted in-house, the absence of statutory regulation has meant that police forces themselves have come to the view that accreditation is a low priority for time and investment. Statutory regulation would therefore enable a path to competition on the basis of quality and encourage new providers to enter the market. Police authorities would not only be more accountable for the procurement decisions they make but better able to make the case to the Government for investment to enable funding safe, high-quality forensics.
I do not wish to present the Bill today as a panacea, but that kind of regulatory environment should be the baseline for a competitive market in services as publicly important as these. That aspiration is key, because although there is ample cause to regret that manner in which the forensic science service was shut down, the Bill seeks to improve and build on the marketised approach as it exists today, rather than seeking to turn back the clock. That is why making this change commands, in my view, such universal expert and political consensus.
In what form, then, could objections possibly be taken? I am conscious that a small minority of practitioners, for example, have previously expressed concern that a statutory regulator would mean essentially sound practices being invalidated on technicalities and leave robust prosecutions open to unfounded but seemingly credible defence challenges, but that is emphatically not a risk created by this proposed legislation. The enforcement and investigatory powers it seeks to create are not directly rooted in compliance with quality standards but justified by substantial risk that the course of justice will be prejudiced by reliance on the science conducted by these practitioners. As such, the only providers with a meaningful basis for concern are those whose work entails risk of that order. Most providers take the rules and codes of practice that govern their work, and the sense of public duty that comes with it, extremely seriously. Only a minority of bad actors have anything to fear from a system that begins with the aim of rewarding quality work done in good faith.
The same essential need for intelligent, enforceable and responsive regulation underpins the case for action to address the increasingly widespread collection, storage and use of biometric data. As I have already said today, the title of the Bill offers some clue to my initial aspirations on that front, but I take the Minister and the Government at their word that solutions are en route. They need to be, in my view, because this is an area in which it is even clearer that innovations and technology will consistently outpace the capacities of primary legislation and where current law leaves an intolerable vacuum for the abuse of new and developing biometrics.
In that context, and very briefly today, I would like to draw colleagues’ attention to the independent review of the governance of biometric data commissioned by the Ada Lovelace Institute, which I understand is due to report its conclusions next month. The findings, I suggest, would represent one of the most authoritative contributions to the debate on how we govern biometrics, and I hope Ministers will take full account of them.
The general data protection regulation defines biometric data in fairly bloodless terms as the information that results from
“processing relating to the physical, physiological or behavioural characteristics of a natural person, which allow or confirm the unique identification of that natural person, such as facial images”.
Some of the processes we are talking about, such as fingerprinting, are well established and the limits on their use well defined, but the potential for abuse created by the speed with which technologies for processing other kinds of biometric data are advancing should make clear the need for political oversight to keep up.
Clearly, that does not begin and end with, for example, automatic facial recognition, but the worry that the technology simply is not ready for roll-out has been debated on the Floor of the House in the past.
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
I wish to acknowledge the hon. Gentleman’s strong point that technology is moving at great speed in crime, as it is in all our lives, and to draw his attention to the fact that we were the only party that stood on a manifesto commitment—it was buried in our manifesto at the general election—to create exactly the robust legal framework to which he refers. I am hopeful that we will get movement on that quite soon.
Darren Jones
I am pleased to hear that from the Minister. I confess that I did not notice that in his party’s manifesto, but on the basis of his confirmation to the House, I look forward to the tabling of comprehensive legislation. I can confirm to the House that, although it may not have been in our manifesto under the previous Labour party leadership, I will do my best to ensure that it is in the next one.
I believe the Minister when he says that he wants to get this right, and the Government will have a partner in me when they get around to it, but time is of the essence. I sorely hope that the Bill fires the starting gun today on a period of revitalised thinking in the Government about how to regulate technologies in the public interest. I want to be a participant in that effort.
The Bill is as evidence-driven and task-focused a piece of legislation as it could be. Putting the regulator in statute is a matter of broad political consensus. As I have said today, on a cross-party basis in both this House and the other House, and among experts in the field, the regulator and, indeed, the Minister and the Government, there is consensus that the Bill should be given its Second Reading today. It will make good on a commitment, first made by the Government in 2013, that the regulator says is necessary if it is to do its job effectively. Finally, it will create a basis of quality enforcement, on which we can build a better-functioning market, and is plainly the right thing to do. On that basis, I commend my Bill to the House.
Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
What a pleasure it is to follow the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones), whom I congratulate on introducing the Bill and addressing this subject following his success in the private Member’s ballot. I am sure we all agree that we want a fine, good-quality forensic service.
The hon. Gentleman made the point that we need the regulator to take action to improve quality. I am sceptical, because we have had a regulator in place since 2007 and it has the powers to bring in codes of practice and, in essence, to encourage, by one method or another, people to comply with those codes. The Bill refers to the introduction of statutory codes of practice that would have to be subject to consultation, but it is not clear to me whether the existing powers have been used sufficiently. It is one thing to say that the regulator has the powers, has been using them and has not been able to make them work so needs them to be put on a statutory footing, but is not clear to me that the existing regulator has been using the available non-statutory powers.
Let me give an example. In her annual report, the forensic science regulator says, in paragraph 2.1 on compliance with the regulator’s codes of practice and conduct:
“The number of organisations that have demonstrated compliance with the Codes has now risen to 42. This leaves approximately 17 organisations in England & Wales that hold accreditation to ISO 17025 but not the Codes and are regularly practising forensic science in the CJS”—
the criminal justice system.
She goes on:
“Of these, 12 are in policing”.
The Home Office, which funds the regulator, also funds the police service. If the Home Office talks to the regulator, why has the Home Office not been successful in persuading 12 police organisations to comply with the codes prepared by the regulator? I do not understand what is going on. I hope that when the Minister responds he will explain why there is this dichotomy: the Government say that they support the Bill because we need a statutory regulator, but at the same time they seem to have been doing nothing to try to bring the recalcitrant police forces into compliance.
Kit Malthouse
My hon. Friend is raising an important point, but there are two things to say. Part of the complication is obviously the operational independence of chief constables, in that the Home Office cannot bring any direct sanction to bear where something falls within their ambit, and as this issue does. However, as a strong champion of the authority and importance of this House, he will also know that transposing regulations into law has had enormous effect in the past. Back in, I think, March 2019, this House passed a statutory instrument on fingerprinting and DNA standards that took us from 9% compliance to 90% across police forces. That illustrates the power that he has from the Back Benches to mandate that kind of action across the country.
Sir Christopher Chope
I am fascinated by my hon. Friend’s response. The chief constable of Dorset is the lead chief constable on this very subject. Perhaps following today’s debate I will be able to have a conversation with him on this matter; but I still despair, really, that it is necessary for this House to intervene to get the police to do what we and an independent regulator think is the right thing for them to do.
Sir Christopher Chope
Obviously police forces face constraints, but ensuring that the best quality forensic evidence is presented in the court system should be the top priority. Why should that be relegated as a lesser priority? My view would therefore be: yes, it is very important, but chief constables should be addressing that issue.
I am slightly sceptical about the need for this Bill, and my scepticism was increased when I looked at the regulator’s annual report and saw that her budget, supplied by the Home Office, runs to only about £400,000 in total admin expenditure for a year. What will be the costs of this legislation, which the Minister is supporting? We are now told in the explanatory notes that it will add about £400,000 a year to the costs of the Home Office, so the admin budget for the forensic regulator would be doubled. How does that compare with the estimate given when my hon. Friend the Member Bolton West (Chris Green) introduced his Bill in the 2017-19 Session? The explanatory notes for that Bill said:
“An impact assessment has been conducted by the Home Office. The Home Office estimates that the statutory powers of the Regulator will cost an average of £100,000 per year in addition”.
How is it that in the space of just two years the Home Office’s estimate of the cost of this legislation has quadrupled? And how, on that basis, can we rely on any of its promises about what the costs will be? I do not know whether in due course we will have a separate debate on the financial side of this Bill—I imagine that we would need a money resolution—but perhaps my hon. Friend the Minister can answer that point now.
Kit Malthouse
I think my hon. Friend has missed his calling: his forensic examination of these documents is to be admired. During the course of the debate I will seek an answer to the question that he raises; I do not have it at the moment. In response to an earlier point that he raised, it is not just the police who are the users of forensic services; very often defence will use them. Having a consistent regulatory environment that is observed by all means that we will get greater consistency in courts, and therefore there will presumably be less time lost—and a saving—in trials that are broken, cracked or have to be delayed because of differences in forensic evidence.
Kit Malthouse
The hon. Lady refers to the history of forensics and fingerprinting. I want to share a small anecdote with the House. In the early days of fingerprinting, the Metropolitan police were in pursuit of a particular criminal who, it came to their attention, had apparently been apprehended in Germany. They sent away to the German police to ask for this sadly deceased criminal’s fingerprints to be sent, so that they could close the case. The German police amputated his hands and sent them whole, and they sit in a jar of formaldehyde in the Met police’s Crime Museum to this day.
Dr Huq
Goodness me, we live and learn, and we learn a new thing every day. What a gory story. It is sad that we are leaving the European Union, because we had access to all those databases, including Europol’s. I think that is a cause for lament, but that is probably another debate for another day.
Dr Huq
Unfortunately, the reality of Britain’s forensic services is far removed from the glamour of “NCIS”. Britain’s Sherlockian sleuths and Clouseauian crime detectives do exist in our police forces, and they do a sterling job, but they have been hampered and held back for years—for at least seven years, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West said. There are three reasons for that.
First, cuts in police and research budgets have adversely affected spending on private forensics. The hon. Member for Bolton West (Chris Green) attempted valiantly in the previous Parliament to raise that issue. Sadly, the election, which not all of us wanted, put paid to that. Whatever happened to the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011? I think it is going soon. Anyway, as he pointed out, expenditure on private forensics has come down from £120 million in 2008 to £50 million at the moment. The House of Lords Science and Technology Committee uncovered those figures last year.
Secondly, there is a lack of competitiveness. Even for fans of the free market, this is not a good way of running the system. The forensics marketplace is in a fragile state, because it is not purely one thing or the other. Thirdly, there is the laxity of the regulatory regime, despite the fact that there is a Forensic Science Regulator. The Bill seeks to address that by calling for a new Forensic Science Regulator, so that our justice system is better equipped to deal with modern crime.
When the regulator itself states that innocent people are repeatedly wrongly convicted and criminals are escaping the long arm of the law due to the failure of the forensic science system to meet basic standards, something has obviously gone very wrong. It is no exaggeration to say that it is positively criminal that the watchdog—currently incarnated as Dr Gillian Tully, who acknowledges this herself—is so toothless, so lacking in cojones, that it is purely advisory. It does not have legal powers to require private providers to meet standards, or to impose fines if they do not meet them.
How did we get here in the first place? It was actually under David Cameron, another PM who swiftly left the crime scene. Paul Roberts, a Nottingham University professor of jurisprudence who specialises in this field said in 2015:
“in a moment of penny-pinching madness that future governments may regard with incomprehension, the UK coalition government closed down the world-famous Forensic Science Service, arguing—quite improbably—that the private sector would fill the gap…this move to free-market forensics is not meeting the justice system’s need for high-quality scientific support and has put in jeopardy long-term forensic research, development and training.”
He laments the closure as part of what he calls a “landscape of ‘austerity justice’”.
Kit Malthouse
Although the hon. Lady is right that the Forensic Science Service was closed, and that part of the argument for its closure was the cost, because it was losing significant amounts of public money at the time, there had also been a series of forensic science failures resulting in high-profile abandoned trials, which meant that reform was felt necessary. It was not purely ideological; it was as much a practical and results-driven decision as anything.
Mr Speaker
Just for the record, the FSS provided a very good service. The labs at Chorley were fantastic.
Chris Green
I think that point reflects on what the hon. Member for Bristol North West said about this being a starting point in terms of the regulator body. This also reflects upon the sphere of law and order and the justice system that it ought to be looking at and investigating. It is those two aspects together that overall will require significant resources, and to get more and increasingly specialist skills to look at artificial intelligence, cloud computing and those sorts of areas. There may not be those skills necessarily within the regulated service, but certainly there would be an expectation of commissioning people to come in to inform and enable the regulator to have that oversight position, perhaps, later on.
Kit Malthouse
My hon. Friend is making an extremely important point, and nowhere is it more pertinent than in the area of digital forensics, as he said, which is developing very fast. One of the obstacles that we have faced in the prosecution of rape investigations, for example, has been the confidence of victims to allow interrogation of their mobile phone data as part of that investigation. Improving the confidence of victims around both the codes of practice and the techniques that are used in those forensic opportunities, and then how that is presented in court, will be a key part of getting them over the line to prosecution, whereas at the moment we are often seeing resistance because of notions of intrusion into privacy that are overwhelming their desire for justice.
Chris Green
I appreciate my hon. Friend’s concerns, but I would be cautious about going down that route. Increasingly, the policing system as a whole reflects on the specialist skills required to do the work and within that system there is increasing recognition that the police need people who are perhaps badged as police but who would not fit into the traditional view of policing. Whether those people are employed and recruited through the policing system or for a private sector provider, ensuring the standards are equally high and equally well adhered to is key to this aspect of the work.
Kit Malthouse
I, too, am anxious not to engage in ping-pong with my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) through my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Chris Green). There are two issues in particular regarding digital forensics. One is the delay. Practices at the moment often mean that victims or others surrender their devices for many weeks, which has implications for them as well. In the end, it is through the regulator and statutory codes of practice that voice is given to democratic consent for the ambit in which the state can intrude into a private individual’s information to the extent that justice may be served. At the moment, that is broadly done at the discretion of the police. Possibly in the future it will be done by codes of practice, and as I said and as we said in our manifesto, we will look at a framework for the adoption of police technology and techniques in the future. Fundamentally, that has to come to this House for democratic consent and it is through these mechanisms that we give that permission.
Chris Green
I thank my hon. Friend for his message.
Let me finish this point about the future tech. We have not really touched on the internet of things, and that global connectivity of billions and billions of devices. That might have an impact on the way the police and other services investigate a crime.
I read a simple but odd thing about how electronic doorbells can play a part in crime. Apparently—I hope no one is listening to this—burglars can observe the data usage when a doorbell is rung and an internet connection is established with the owner, who may be at work or away. The fact that the data usage rockets up tells the burglar that the person has not come to the door and that they are observing what is going on from afar, and so are not there.
Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab)
In a spirit of cross-party consensus, it is a pleasure to follow the speech of the hon. Member for Bolton West (Chris Green).
I was very disappointed to learn that the parliamentary editor of PA, Richard Wheeler, said of our proceedings this morning that they lack
“the razzle dazzle of a Lords”
sitting Friday. If he has been paying full attention this morning, I do not know how he can possibly have missed the wonderful tour de force of my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq), who even occasionally addressed the contents of the Bill, as well as a wide range of other issues; the interventions of the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller), who talked of “digital whatsits”; or the story from the Minister, no less, about the transit of cold, dead hands from Germany to the United Kingdom for the purpose of forensic investigation.
I find that we always learn something new on sitting Fridays. On this occasion, the most surprising revelation was not the gory story about the cold, dead hands; it was actually the revelation that this seems to be the only issue that did not appear in the 2019 Labour manifesto. We covered literally everything else. There was a policy on literally everything—no expense was spared—yet somehow, we overlooked forensic science regulation. No doubt, under the new leadership—the forensic leadership, no less—of the Leader of the Opposition, we will redress that imbalance. If only the omission of this policy area from the manifesto was the reason we lost the election—that would make things more straightforward for us than they are.
One of the other great things about a sitting Friday, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones) assured me, is that finishing at half 2 gives people plenty of time to be back home in their constituencies in time for “Gogglebox”. I know he is an avid viewer.
Turning to the matter at hand, in his opening speech my hon. Friend set out very clearly why the Bill is important, specific and very timely. As we have heard, following the abolition of the Forensic Science Service in 2012, the responsibility for providing forensic services has fallen to the private sector and, in practice, to a fragile and often uncompetitive market, hindered by widening capacity gaps and dominated by a few big providers. That brings with it the likelihood of supply shocks and market collapse, exacerbated by the absence of fully enforceable quality standards. That is the central case for the Bill set out by my hon. Friend.
My speech will focus on the urgency and timeliness of making this a statutory regulator. The Minister has alluded to the fact that the Bill ought to have Government support. I hope that it will, because since the office of the Forensic Science Regulator was created in 2008, it has operated as an independent public appointee with Home Office sponsorship but has lacked the statutory powers it needs.
Indeed, the FSR’s annual report published in 2020 illustrates the consequences of having such regulation without statutory power. Forensic services carried out in-house by police forces are not subject to contractually mandated compliance with quality standards and so carry the risk of consistently lower levels of compliance. The report states:
“The Regulator regularly receives correspondence from commercial providers of all sizes complaining about the lack of a level playing field for compliance with quality standards. The Regulator welcomes the police requiring compliance through commercial contracts with their suppliers. It is however imperative that policing achieve that same level of compliance for their own internal services, whether those be long established disciplines or the more recent, digital field.”
The annual report also makes the point that the development of improved guidance on quality standards for taking forensic samples from complainants in sexual offence cases underscores the need for a regulator with the statutory ability to ensure adherence. The success of sex crime prosecutions relies on sexual assault referral centres minimising the chance of DNA contamination. There has been an example of DNA from one case contaminating the swabs from a different case handled on adjacent days in the same SARC, yet the commissioners of some SAR services are still reluctant to pay for the testing of their SARC environment to minimise the risk of contamination. Compliance with the quality standards set by the Forensic Science Regulator will mean that anti-contamination practices and testing will have to improve. When discussing a Bill that may appear very technical, we should not underestimate the human consequences of getting this right.
Kit Malthouse
The hon. Gentleman is exactly right. With regard to digital forensics, I remind him of the case of Liam Allan, where errors made by the police in the disclosure of digital evidence eventually led to the acquittal of the accused. Following that case, we saw a chill go through the prosecution of rape, to the extent that the number of rape cases brought to the courts plunged. We are still struggling with that issue, which points to exactly what the hon. Gentleman said about the confidence of the system in the forensic capability, practices and standards used to bring people to justice.
Wes Streeting
I am very grateful to the Minister for that intervention because it underlines the point I am making. There can be nothing worse for victims of serious crimes than knowing that the perpetrator has gone free because the forensics were not handled appropriately or sensitively, so we absolutely have to get this right.
Kit Malthouse
I just want to be clear that in the circumstances of the case I referred to, the person accused of the crime was found innocent as a result of further disclosure, which proved that person’s innocence. To an extent, it was a case that was prosecuted on possibly false pretences, because of poor digital forensic practices and disclosure.
Wes Streeting
I absolutely understand. I was referring to victims whose crimes are not punished, but it is important that the justice system gets it right. Sometimes people will be wrongly accused, and contaminated evidence giving a misleading impression is not a good outcome for anyone either.
The Forensic Science Regulator’s 2020 annual report also raises concerns about levels of compliance on the classification of firearms:
“It is unlikely that there will be a significant further move towards compliance while the Regulator has no statutory enforcement powers.”
Efforts have been made to incentivise police forces to seek accreditation, but that process is made more challenging by the regulator’s lack of statutory powers, particularly in the context of rising cost pressures. The 2019 “Forensics Review” found suggestions that that deficiency meant the police
“de-prioritised investment and meeting deadlines for accreditation”
and
“described difficulties in achieving accreditation for inhouse services digital functions. In some cases, accreditation was seen as an additional cost pressure amid a number of competing priorities.”
At this point, it is hugely tempting to talk about the cost pressures on police forces, whether the Metropolitan police, who cover my constituency, or Essex police, who cover yours, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will not go there, because you will very quickly rule me out of scope on the Bill, but it is none the less beyond question that if police forces are thinking about cost pressures and where to deploy resources for officers and the kit they need, there is a real risk. There have been occasions where police forces have not invested in forensics to the extent that they should have done because they had other, arguably more important priorities. Frankly, they should not be forced to choose. It cannot be right that police commissioners, commanders and senior officers are placed in that position. That is about the Government ensuring the police receive the resources they need and about having the regulatory framework in place to ensure resources are directed to the right place.
Kit Malthouse
I know the hon. Gentleman is not advocating a blank cheque for policing and recognises that there are always finite resources, but he alights on an important point. It is perhaps worth stressing the notion that investment in forensics and in making sure that forensic investigations are conducted to very high standards means there will be enormous savings on abandoned trials and prosecutions that go nowhere. He may well be right that some forces take a short-sighted view, but forensics should be a spend to save, because it will make the police force more effective.
Wes Streeting
The Minister makes a very good financial case for investing in forensics. It will lead not only to better outcomes in criminal justice but potentially to cost savings from resources. That does not mean that he should wander away from the manifesto commitment to replace almost all the police officers the Government have seen away in the past decade.
John Lamont
I am grateful for that clarification. I suppose my point was more about compliance notices being issued during court proceedings and the impact that that would have. For example, would another provider then have to analyse the evidence, and could it be legitimately argued that the evidence had in some way been contaminated while under the care of the provider issued with the compliance notice? I want to make it clear that I am by no means an expert on forensic science and my concerns may be utterly unsubstantiated, but these are important points to consider during analysis of the Bill. I would be grateful if the Minister or the hon. Gentleman could give further clarification on them, not necessarily today but further down the line.
As I am acutely aware, justice is a devolved matter in Northern Ireland and Scotland, so this Bill of course applies only to England and Wales. However, one of the huge benefits of devolution is being able to look over the border, wherever that may be, to see what can be done better, or perhaps more importantly, what should be avoided. As a representative of the Scottish Borders, I see almost every day differences in policies either side of the Tweed, and their qualities and shortcomings, although I must point out that sometimes all nations collectively get it wrong. I am sure I do not need to remind Members of the exam results debacle over the summer, when all four Education Secretaries felt the heat from disgruntled parents and students simultaneously.
Despite the fact that justice is devolved, I would point out that the current Forensic Science Regulator plays a role across the entire United Kingdom. The Forensic Science Advisory Council, which is chaired by the regulator, has representatives from Forensic Science Northern Ireland and the Scottish Police Authority Forensic Services, which are deemed to be full partners. In written evidence to the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee, the regulator said that that allows for the implementation of the resulting standards in jurisdictions across the UK and that that
“will beneficially ensure the existence of UK-wide standards in forensic science.”
That is good news and means that we are all sharing best practice across all parts of this United Kingdom, ensuring that justice can be served in these islands.
I am a very firm protector and supporter of devolution, but to appease those who may not believe in common working between the nations of our United Kingdom I would happily point out that Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary in Scotland stated in a report in 2016 that “there is no requirement” for the decisions of the advisory council to be implemented in Scotland. I think all right hon. and hon. Members can agree that this is a great example of the nations of the UK working together for the good of all, despite powers residing in the different capital cities of our country.
Another example of the Forensic Science Regulator having a role other than in England and Wales was when it was asked to review the performance of the Scottish Police Services Authority in the case of HM Advocate v. Ross Monaghan. I do not want to go into the specific details of this report, but it is important once again to flag up how this Bill may end up having an effect, however small, across the whole United Kingdom.
I want to return to the topic of biometrics. The Bill’s full name is the Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill. We have already heard from the hon. Member for Bristol North West why there is so little about biometrics in the Bill. I understand that “Erskine May” allows private Members’ Bills to have purposes that do not relate to their titles, but I am not sure whether the hon. Member intends to amend the name of the Bill as it progresses. We will have to wait and see.
Kit Malthouse
Just to confirm, should the House consent to the Bill’s progress, we intend to table an amendment to the title in Committee.
John Lamont
I am grateful to the Minister for that clarification.
I welcome the fact that there are no biometric measures in the Bill, as, to be honest, I think our biometrics strategy is far too large to be included in a private Member’s Bill. Recently, the Scottish Parliament passed the standalone Scottish Biometrics Commissioner Bill, which deals with how biometrics data should be used. That shows how big an issue it is, and why it should be dealt with separately.
Most people are relatively comfortable with a passport gate scanning our face or a smartphone using our thumbprint. Yet there are many legitimate concerns about the use of biometrics by police forces and privacy concerns about sharing our data. We recently saw the brave protesters in Hong Kong tearing down alleged facial recognition cameras as the regime tried to incriminate those marching against the national security laws. That is just one example of how the technology can be misused. I know that the hon. Member for Bristol North West has a keen interest in that, as he held a Westminster Hall debate on the topic last year.
It is clear that the House will support the Bill and I welcome its progression to the next stage. The dependability of evidence heard in our courtrooms, be they in England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland, is one of the most important things that we can protect as legislators. Without a justice system that we can believe in and that we can trust, we cannot be a thriving democratic country.
I believe that giving statutory powers to the Forensic Science Regulator will help drive up standards throughout the country and I am happy to support that principle today.
Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con)
First, I commend the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones) for bringing forward the Bill and my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Chris Green), who, as we have heard, tried unsuccessfully with a similar Bill in the previous Parliament.
I am far from an expert in forensic science, but I guess the beauty of private Members’ Bills and sitting Fridays is that we get a chance to explore things that we would not normally show an interest in. I have spent the last few days going through the Bills, the Select Committee hearings in the Lords and other things.
The Bill establishes the Forensic Science Regulator as a statutory office holder. The regulator can exercise those functions and powers in respect of forensic science activities for the purposes of the criminal justice system in England and Wales. The regulator will be required to publish, and keep under review, a code of practice about forensic science activities, subject to approval by Parliament. Among other powers, the regulator can investigate and take enforcement action in relation to forensic science activities carried on in a manner that risks prejudicing the course of legal proceedings.
Forensic providers for police forces need greater quality control when processing evidence. I know they are fictional depictions, but we see programmes on Netflix or drama shows all the time, where solicitors look at evidence and dig into it further, trying to find a way to say that it was not collected correctly, that it was incorrectly labelled, or that processes had not been properly followed. Although that is a depiction, there is probably a bit of validity regarding how the process operates, and it makes sense for us to have not poorer quality control, but much better quality control.
I welcome the fact that dozens of police forces across England and Wales are making improvements in areas of forensic science, such as fingerprint comparison data, the examination of crime scenes, and the extraction of data from digital devices. It is vital that the Government act quickly to provide statutory powers, which have been promised for a number of years. I welcome this Bill, which has my full support. There is a clear need to build public consensus and confidence in the quality of forensic evidence used in court proceedings, and the powers in the Bill will help that to happen. Our constituents demand that our systems are robust.
In 2019, the Science and Technology Committee in the House of Lords published a report on forensic science and the criminal justice system that highlighted a number of interesting and informative points. Forensic science has been under sustained scrutiny over the past 10 years, and that complicated discipline interacts with a wide range of fields, including science, policing, government, and law. Clear and deep-rooted challenges have been identified but not addressed, and the inquiry highlighted the importance of effective, robust, and high quality forensic science, and its contribution to the justice system. It also stated that we must enable a world-class forensic science regulator.
Forensic science applies scientific methods to the recovery, analysis and interpretation of relevant materials, providing data for criminal investigations and the court proceedings that follow. For both intelligence gathering and evidential tools, it is vital that we assist the justice delivery mechanisms. Forensic science is traditionally viewed as a collection of different sub-domains that share overarching principles, processes, and activities. Within those sub-domains there are a range of primary aims and variables in the scientific underpinning of those robust methods.
Professor Peter Sommer, Professor of Digital Forensics at Birmingham City university, summed those activities up well. He makes four relevant points. The definition is:
“‘Trace’ or ‘wet’ forensics: where a laboratory carries out…a series of standard tests to identify or match some material found at a scene of crime or associated with an individual…Interpretation: where the result of the examination of the trace is ambiguous but nevertheless some sort of inference or conclusion is desired. “Interpretation” may mean…a statistical probability of likelihood”
which leaves the door open to being challenged. His definition also includes:
“Reconstruction of events: where large numbers of different ‘traces’…and testimonial evidence are combined by a skilled investigator who produces a reconstruction of a sequence of events. Examples include road traffic accidents”.
Finally, there is opinion evidence, where an expert looks at a range of circumstances and offers an opinion based on skill, training and expertise.
Forensic science is rather unique, sitting in a nexus of science, law, policy and investigation. It should be viewed as a process that encompasses the crime scene through to court. Professor Claude Roux has said of forensic science that a free society is dependent on the rule of law, which in turn relies on the quality of access to justice. The Lords Select Committee’s report says:
“The evidence we received points to failings in the use of forensic science in the criminal justice system and these can be attributed to an absence of high-level leadership, a lack of funding and an insufficient level of research and development. Throughout this inquiry we heard about the decline in forensic science in England and Wales, especially since the abolition of the Forensic Science Service.”
This private Member’s Bill addresses many of these points. Professor Roux went on to say:
“When I was a student, England and Wales held, essentially, the international benchmark. It was the ‘Mecca’ for forensic science. Some 30 years later, my observation from the outside”
was that it had fallen away. In the past 10 years, there have been nine reports, each with numerous assessments of the state of forensic science in England and Wales and recommendations to address some of the challenges. In addition, there have been two influential reports from the United States with similar findings.
Some of the concerns that were raised were that major crimes could go unsolved unless the Government did more to support forensic science, that forensic science provision was under threat because the police were increasingly relying on unregulated experts to examine samples from suspects and crime scenes, and that cost had become a greater factor in the tendering process than quality. There was concern that without statutory powers to enforce compliance, which this Bill introduces, the Forensic Science Regulator could not ensure that science used in the criminal justice system would be carried out to the required standard.
Kit Malthouse
My hon. Friend is making a compelling speech and he is absolutely right to point out the vital importance of forensic science in the detection, prevention and prosecution of crime. Does he agree that we must also be careful not to see forensic science as a silver bullet for crime solving but rather as a tool for the police? I am reminded of a story that you will remember well, Madam Deputy Speaker, of the Night Stalker, a gerontophile who plagued south and south-east London for some 25 years, breaking into people’s homes, often those of elderly people, and assaulting and often raping them. The Metropolitan police pursued this man for many years. He was active for a while, then disappeared for a while, then came back and was active again. Enormous amounts of active effort was put into pursuing him on a forensic basis. DNA samples were gathered, analysis was done, and they identified where in the world this person might have come from. Other people from similar demographics were asked to come forward and volunteer their DNA. Still, they failed to find him until there was a rotation of the investigating officer. A new person was put in charge of the investigation who worked out that the police were not actually trying to catch a rapist. They were trying to catch a burglar who happened to rape at the same time. That change in investigative posture meant that they caught him within two weeks. Although forensics can be vital, sometimes they are not the silver bullet people hold them out to be.
Scott Mann
As always, I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s knowledge on this subject. He shares my passion for increasing the number of police on our streets and there is nothing greater than the police being out there when it comes to collecting data and evidence. I guess my view is somewhat clouded by the programmes I have watched on television where they solve the crime in an hour; sometimes it takes a little longer. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for pointing me in that direction.
The Lords inquiry considered the contribution of forensic science, and the understanding of forensic science evidence, in the criminal justice system. The Committee examined the scientific evidence base for different technologies and the regulatory framework that underpins the sector, and considered the instability of the forensic science market and research. It held 21 oral evidence sessions, had more than 50 witnesses and received 103 written submissions. The Committee visited the Metropolitan police’s forensic science lab on 6 October and observed forensic analysis, including fingerprint analysis, ballistic comparisons and digital forensic analysis.
A couple of things came out of the report that I need to highlight. First, on oversight, leadership and responsibility, and secondly, on research and development. On the culture and environment of oversight within forensic science, a consistent theme that ran through the report was the piecemeal nature of oversight and responsibility for forensic science in England and Wales. Should the Bill pass today—hopefully it will—it will alleviate some of these concerns. The Committee repeatedly heard that the system was not operating as it should and was in a state of crisis, threatening to undermine the justice system.
The Knowledge Transfer Network’s Forensic Science Special Interest Group—that is a bit of a mouthful—thought that there was
“a lack of clear leadership, oversight and governance across the wider forensic landscape. A fragmented and weakened marketplace, lack of funding for forensic research supporting the evidence base and a silo approach”.
As we have seen from many other organisations, silos never work well when people are bedded down into them. That led to some regions having different processes from others, whereas consistency is needed right across this thing.
That leads me on to my next point—the piecemeal nature of oversight. As forensic science is fragmented, there are challenges in developing a co-ordinated strategy, a sustainable marketplace and science with a strong theoretical foundation to underpin practice. That piecemeal approach has led to some of the serious and urgent problems facing the sector. Rebecca Endean, director of strategy at UK Research and Innovation, described forensic science as
“probably as disparate as it could be”.
While the Home Office has overall responsibility for forensic science, much of its application is in the courts, which fall under the remit of the Ministry of Justice. The then Minister of State at the Home Office, the right hon. Nick Hurd MP, told the Committee that there were “significant problems” trying to manage that, with one reason being that there had been such a fragmented approach over such a long period of time. He said:
“The response is to support a strategic approach that supports more collective leadership in addressing some of the key capability gaps and identifying the road map.”
He went on to say that he was trying to tackle some of those issues and intended to publish the results of the Government’s review into forensic science by the end of March 2019. It would be good to know whether that review was published, and whether Government support for that review led to the introduction of and support for the Bill.
The then Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the Ministry of Justice, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Lucy Frazer), was clear that forensic science lay squarely in the remit of the Home Office, but said that the Ministry of Justice was supporting and assisting the Home Office. On why the Ministry of Justice did not have a greater role, given that forensic science is essentially about ensuring that justice is done, she said
“sometimes it is important for one department to lead on an issue”,
but agreed to think about how the Ministry of Justice could work better with the Home Office on forensic science.
Forensic science in England and Wales is now provided by private companies and the police. The fragmentation of certain aspects of this could undermine public trust. I do not want to see that; I want a consistent approach running through this. It is important to recognise that, with the Policing Vision 2025 and the Home Office forensic science thing, a much more joined-up approach is required.
The sustainability of the police force is vital, and as I have already alluded to in this speech, I am grateful for the investment that we are seeing in supporting retention of police officers and recruitment of new ones across the country. That is vital for me, knowing that my constituents can feel safe in the knowledge that evidence is being collected and sent to the right place.
The other part of the report was on research and development, and there are three main areas where it was felt that increased scrutiny was needed:
“The scientific validity of the approaches used to identify the source of a material or mark, and the challenges in addressing complex mixed provenance samples…The need to understand better the activity of materials to aid interpretation of forensic science evidence…and their implications for reaching conclusions”
when reconstructing crime scenes, and:
“Awareness of the importance of human decision-making in the forensic science process and the challenges of identifying factors which can affect judgments.”
In response to a very critical report published in the United States in 2009 by the National Research Council, the then President, President Obama, commissioned a study in 2015 to examine the scientific validity of different forensic science methods, which examined the DNA analysis of single-source and simple mixture samples, DNA analysis of complex mixture samples, bite marks, latent fingerprints, firearms identification and footwear analysis. The report found that many of those methods did not meet the scientific standards for foundational validity.
That was concerning at the time, because those methods were used routinely for court trials and there were concerns in the States that the methodology and pattern recognition in the analysis were a main contributing factor in many criminals’ missing out on proper justice. We need to rule out all ambiguity, as much or as best we can, in terms of delivering good-quality judicial practice across the board with evidence collecting. That is what leads me to think that the regulator is required and why I am supporting the hon. Member for Bristol North West today.
The work of the regulator should include advising the Government and the criminal justice system on quality standards, identifying the requirements for new and improved quality standards, leading on the development of new standards where necessary, providing advice and guidance so that providers will be able to demonstrate compliance with common standards, for example procurement and in the courts, ensuring satisfactory arrangements exist to provide assurance and monitoring of standards and reporting on quality standards generally.
In conclusion, I welcome and support the changes that are being proposed by the hon. Gentleman. I had rather a tour de force running through the forensic science this week, and I have really enjoyed it. It has been very interesting The Bill has my full support today; I will be voting for it and I hope to see it make progress through the House.
Craig Williams
My hon. Friend is correct. I see this more as the exception than the rule. I alluded earlier to the consensus across a wide range of stakeholders, and I would not dare to rise to my feet in his presence and recommend something purely based on what a regulator said, but this is about the weight of stakeholders, alongside the regulator—who on this occasion is correct, in my judgment—encouraging us to do something.
I want to reflect on some live cases. We have heard today about the county lines raids happening across the UK. This is extremely welcome. County lines leave a scar across our country, but are felt most extremely in our rural communities, small villages and towns. I pay tribute to all the forces that took part in the raids conducted today and to the National Crime Agency. The raids lend themselves to showing the importance of the Bill, because they involved 43 regional forces in England and Wales and forensic science will play a huge role in turning those 1,000 arrests into convictions.
Kit Malthouse
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue. He is quite right. I point out the critical role that forensic science will play in that exercise. By the appliance of science, as they say, we can connect telephones used for the prosecution of the drugs trade to people who previously thought they were anonymous to the extent that within sometimes just a few days of being notified of a number that has been used for the promotion of the drugs industry in a particular town or area, we can be through the door of that person, who is sometimes at two or three removes from the dealer.
Craig Williams
My hon. Friend brings a sobering note to the debate. Clearly, we need the powers and the standardisation of the quality of evidence to ensure that our constituents are protected, but Parliament, having put them on a statutory footing, needs to keep playing an active role to watch that the fears that he describes do not arise. I would say that about any power that we give to any colour of Government.
To stick to my practical points, I underpin what I was saying about the county lines raids and welcome the quality of evidence. The Bill will bring more power to the persecution of those evil people. I also pay tribute to my force, Dyfed-Powys police, and its trailblazing efforts in forensic science, which have seen cow DNA used for the first time in a conviction earlier this year. Any hon. Member who represents a rural agricultural community will know that forensic science is changing the way that we police our great countryside and shires.
A farmer in Dyfed-Powys lost a heifer in 2017. Like any good farmer, he soon recognised it in a neighbouring field but of course could not prove it, and the case went on with Dyfed-Powys police for some years. Luckily, a breakthrough in forensic science proved through DNA sampling that the lost heifer, which was next door with a naughty neighbouring farmer who happened by chance to find that obviously prize-winning heifer in his field and who produced a fake cow passport and, indeed, fake tagging, was his. He was reunited with his cow and there was a successful prosecution. I am pleased to tell the House that there was a £4,000 fine and £500 in costs. It was indeed a very moving occasion for all of us in Dyfed-Powys.
Kit Malthouse
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making, in a charming and agrarian way, a very important point about us having confidence in the forensic system. Forensic science is advancing all the time, and that holds particular promise in the area of cold cases. Those are cases where crimes—often heinous crimes—have been undertaken, but the evidence is just not there, and forensic science at the time had not reached a position where it could help with the prosecution. Often, the passage of time results in the deterioration of other evidence, such as witness evidence—people’s memories go, or the witnesses to a crime are not necessarily present —but the forensic evidence remains. The development of techniques that allow us to re-examine that evidence and put convictions in place is vital, and that requires a level of assurance and quality.
There is no case more illustrative than the conviction of the killers of Stephen Lawrence. Developments in forensic science led, 18 years after that heinous crime, to the analysis of one particular spot of blood on some clothing that was retained, which then led to the conviction of the individuals. While I acknowledge my hon. Friend’s quite sane, sensible and principled concern about state action, I remind him that, in this place, we regard the law as our protection, and often it is the absence of law that leads to the kind of state musculature that he is concerned about.
Craig Williams
I echo the Minister’s words: there is no crime too small or too large in this country that will not be helped to be solved by this incredibly important Bill and the underpinning of the quality of evidence.
I will conclude by paying tribute again to Dyfed Powys police. They not only led the UK—indeed, maybe the world—in the conviction of that particular naughty farmer who pinched the heifer, but they did the same with stolen sheep in 2017. These crimes are incredibly important to rural Wales and rural UK. The Minister mentioned some severe and heartbreaking crimes. In agricultural crimes, we will be able to turn on the criminals because of forensic science, if we can get the quality and the assurance right, so that wherever they are, no sheep rustler will be safe.
Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Craig Williams). Before I address the provisions of the Bill, I would like to echo the words of the Minister in his point of order before the debate. As I have said in the House before and no doubt will say again, my father served in the Metropolitan police for more than 30 years. He was able to retire to his family. After last night’s events, one police officer will not be able to do that. That hurts our country, it hurts this House and it hurts the police family, of which I am a part. It also underpins what we are talking about today. We send police officers out in all circumstances for all sorts of reasons, and they deserve a criminal justice system and a Forensic Science Regulator that underpin what they do and the risks they take.
I very much welcome the Bill, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones) on promoting it. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Chris Green) for his work and welcome the cross-party debate and work to get this Bill into law. I welcome the establishment of the Forensic Science Regulator as a statutory office holder, which underpins the service very effectively. Cost is a valid issue to debate, but the value of this to victims and also to the accused, where we can adduce evidence to prove their innocence, is worth an investment of some magnitude, particularly given the advancement of science in this area.
I welcome the fact that the regulator will be able to exercise its functions across the justice system in England and Wales, and that the Bill includes a power for the Secretary of State to extend its remit by regulations if necessary. I also welcome the fact that the regulator will be required to publish and keep under review a code of practice, subject to the approval of Parliament, which of course is very important in itself. Among its other powers, the regulator will be able to investigate and take enforcement action in relation to forensic science activities carried on in a manner that risks prejudicing the course of legal proceedings.
As I say, I am the daughter of a police officer. My dad did not really get involved in forensics, but he was involved in the technicalities, I suppose, of trying to solve crime. I remember him telling me about a man who was accused of murdering his mother. The man said he was at work at the time; that was his alibi. My father had to test that alibi by doing the relatively simple thing of finding a similar car and driving around, from the man’s workplace to the murder scene, to see whether it was possible to for that to be a workable alibi. He said it was not. The accused was never convicted, but my father always took the view that he got away with it on that occasion.
I think it is clear to us all that technology is advancing so much that the legislative framework needs to move, too. The point was made that biometrics is a whole new issue that perhaps needs to be included in a wider study. There are studies going on, and I welcome the fact that we will look at biometrics—the risks, the opportunities and the management of the data associated with it; the issues of privacy and civil rights that go along with that—in another forum and bring this all together in another Act.
As I say, I have had experience as a magistrate, albeit not as much as I would if I were sitting in the Crown court. Forensics has a fine history in this country, and we see it in our courts every day. It surprises me that fingerprint evidence was first accepted in British courts as long ago as 1901, which seems very early, although I suppose in the scheme of things it is almost unbelievable that we have moved on as far as we have.
The “jigsaw murders” were the first complex case solved by DNA evidence, back in the 1930s. The accused was the improbably named Buck Ruxton of Lancaster. The details of the case are not pleasant—although perhaps they are not as grisly as the Minister’s German hands incident—but it serves to emphasise how long this has been an issue. Forensic techniques were used in examining the cadavers; the life cycle of maggots was adduced to help prove where and when the victims were murdered, and other forensic techniques were able to prove that the victims were linked and that Dr Ruxton had killed them both. I am told that that case is very well known in forensic circles and that it is quoted often.
Let me fast-forward 50 years to the 1980s and a case that is much more famous for us all: the terrible story of two 15-year-old girls. The first girl took a shortcut on her way home from babysitting instead of her normal route home. She did not return. After a long search by her friends and neighbours, she was found raped and strangled on a deserted footpath. Using the techniques available at the time, police found that a sample taken from her body would match only 10% of males, but there were no other leads. As the Minister pointed out, good policing is still at the core of what we do, but there was a dead end for the police at that point.
Not long after, a second 15-year-old girl went missing. Two days later, her body was found in a wooded area, also savagely beaten, raped and strangled. The DNA evidence matched that of the first attack. At that point, a suspect was identified—a 17-year-old boy with learning difficulties who, under questioning, admitted to one of the murders.
Just after that, Alec Jeffreys, a genetics researcher at the University of Leicester who had developed DNA profiling with Peter Gill and Dave Werrett of the Forensic Science Service, did some more analysis. Using their techniques, Jeffreys compared samples from both murder victims against a blood sample from the 17-year-old boy and conclusively proved that both girls were killed by the same man, but not by the young suspect. He became the first person ever to have his innocence established by DNA fingerprinting. We cannot under estimate how important that is to the justice system. It is not just about convicting the guilty; it is about proving the innocence of people who might not otherwise have the capacity to do so themselves.
In an interesting twist, about a year later a lady overheard a man in a pub boasting that he had given a sample. Men in the area had been asked to offer samples and 5,500 men did so. The man said, “I did it for my mate because he didn’t want to get involved.” She reported that to the police and that man was the perpetrator. He was convicted of a double murder and, thankfully, is still in prison to this day.
DNA fingerprinting and forensic science have a long and esteemed history in our justice system. Long may it continue, and long may it continue underpinned by this Bill. Even yesterday, we could read in the paper about a burglar who was recently convicted of burgling an elderly man’s house. The police found a half-eaten biscuit at the scene of the crime. Who leaves a biscuit half eaten anyway? I don’t understand that! [Interruption.] The greed of the perpetrator meant that not only did he steal from the elderly gentleman, but he raided the cupboard and left a biscuit on the side. That enabled the police to capture his DNA and to capture another prolific burglar. It is a terrible, violating crime. The burglar was imprisoned just a couple of days ago because of that good work.
Kit Malthouse
My hon. Friend is giving a fascinating tour de force on the history of forensics. She is quite right about the history, and it goes even further back. I know she will recall—although not because she was present—the celebrated case of Dr Crippen, who was alleged to have murdered his wife and fled to the United States. On searching his home, the police found a torso under the floor of the house. Pathologists were unable to identify whether it was male or female. No limbs were ever recovered, the head was gone, and many of the bones of the skeleton had gone. However, on the torso there was a scar that was deemed to be commensurate with medical attention that Dr Crippen’s wife had undergone. Although there was some debate about the scar between the scientists, along with some critical forensic evidence concerning a fragment of pyjama, it led to his return from Canada and the United States, where had had fled, and to his eventual conviction and execution.
Julie Marson
I thank my hon. Friend for relaying that story. We talk about “CSI” and so on, but it goes to prove that there is nothing so fascinating as real life. We cannot escape the fact that real life is sometimes stranger than fiction.
My hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) asked what biscuit it was. It was a Lebkuchen, apparently—the devil is in the detail.
When we evaluate forensics, we have to establish the evidence, both good and bad, and there have been examples of mistakes. Back in 2012, scientists, lawyers and politicians raised concerns about the quality of forensic evidence testing, arguing that the criminal justice system had become too reliant on lab tests without realising their limitations, which is certainly something we need to guard against. One man became the victim of those mistakes when, in the early hours of one morning, he had a knock at the door from the police, who told him he was being arrested for murder. When he asked what evidence there was against him, the police said that it was his DNA. He spent eight months in jail because of that mistake, before the DNA sample was found to be only a partial match and of very poor quality. Subsequent experts said that he could not be ruled in or out, and he was acquitted. It is therefore important that DNA should absolutely be up to the standards that we would expect of a robust and fair criminal justice system.
It is not just in the UK that potential issues with forensics can arise. In the US, the misapplication of forensic science in the form of DNA evidence contributed to 45% of wrongful convictions, while false or misleading forensic evidence was a contributing factor in 24% of all wrongful convictions nationally, according to the National Registry of Exonerations. That includes convictions based on unreliable or invalid forensic evidence, misleading expert testimony, mistakes made by practitioners and, in some cases, misconduct by forensic analysts. In some cases, scientific testimony that was generally accepted at the time of a conviction has since been undermined by new advances in scientific disciplines, which can cause real difficulties in getting a case back into court. Changing science is a phenomenon that I know is taking up much of the attention of some colleagues across the House, for different reasons, but it is really important in the context of this Bill.
It is important to humanise this issue because, as I hope the examples and anecdotes that I have described show, although it can seem very technical, it has real human consequences. There is also public interest in the UK becoming a pioneer in forensics and using it more and more in investigations, which is inevitable. The science is advancing at pace, and there is a new discovery around every corner. However, we should still consider the potential of human error to slip into diagnostics involving forensics. Owing to that interest in our leadership in this field, it is great that this House is looking at how to establish the correct legislative framework to manage those advancements sensibly. I am therefore pleased to speak in favour of the Bill.
Richard Fuller
I would not go quite as far as saying it is an obsession, but there is certainly an interest in the Home Office in an authoritarian streak that we should be a little worried about. Contrary to what my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Brendan Clarke-Smith) said about the benefits of regulation and a statutory underpinning in bringing forward efficiencies, my experience of regulation and statutory intervention in other markets is that they can have the effect of stifling innovation and putting to the back those who wish to challenge the modus operandi. My hon. Friend the Minister has come forward with a number of interesting stories, but he spoke with such zeal that perhaps he might help me when he responds to the debate by extolling the fact that the Home Office is strongly behind civil liberties in this country and sees no reason in the Bill for my concerns on that front.
Richard Fuller
I see that my hon. Friend is prepared to intervene to reassure me.
Kit Malthouse
I am more than happy to give my hon. Friend that reassurance. I come, I guess, from the point of view of the Thomas More philosophy. I think it was Thomas More who said:
“This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast”.
He then asked whether, if those laws were chopped down,
“you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then?”
I understand my hon. Friend’s caution about greater regulation, but these are matters of sensitive intrusion into personal freedom by the state. In those circumstances, I believe they are warranted in the cause of freedom and, as I said earlier, to shield us from an over-mighty state; to regulate, not only for a well-tempered market for provision but so that everybody, when they are presented in court before 12 of their fellow citizens for adjudication on their crimes, knows that the evidence is presented to a quality and standard in which we all, including them, can have confidence.
Richard Fuller
How impressive it is to hear a Minister from the Front Bench quote so directly from the classics! We usually only hear that from either my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes) or the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove). To welcome the Minister to that pantheon of classic scholars, I congratulate him.
Maybe I can probe the Minister, or maybe provoke him, a little bit more on the Government’s view of the Bill. There seems to me to be some incongruity between exhortations about the independence of our police force from the interference or directions of the Home Secretary, which to a certain extent are part of the motivation for the Bill to achieve standardisation, and the use of a regulator to perform that enforcement through other means. Either we want the police to act independently and to make their own local decisions, or we wish to regulate and enforce them. I hope that how the Government, in providing a statutory underpinning to what is still, as all have observed today, a new—I guess that if “Quincy, M.E.” was in the 1970s, it is not that new—and rapidly progressing area of forensics, seek to balance the independence of the police with regulations can be considered in Committee. It is reassuring that there is such a broad consensus, including from the National Police Chiefs Council which indicates quite a wide range of support among our professional officers, that the statutory underpinning can be beneficial and a valuable aspect to bring forward.
The Minister and the promoter of the Bill will have heard the concerns raised initially by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch about the escalating costs of regulation. That is an issue I wish to return to as we look more broadly at the way in which regulators take their existing powers and, over time and usually with very little regard and oversight from this House, seek to extend their powers and expand their budgets. That is a matter I would like to bring to the attention of the Minister and perhaps he can refer to it in his remarks.
Before that, I would like to draw the attention of the House to some thoughts on this matter in the US. In particular, I do not know if the Minister has seen the “Seton Hall Law Review” paper by Professor Simon Cole at the department of criminology at the University of California, in which he cites some of the general problems with American forensic science and talks about the issue of standards. He also mentions 14 other problems with forensics, as they emerge in the United States. I would be interested to know if the Minister or the hon. Member for Bristol North West will consider them as we move forward. For example:
“Forensic science is inadequately resourced by governments to do what is asked of it.”
We are looking today at what the costs may be of providing a statutory underpinning, but are police forces comfortable that they have sufficient resources?
“Forensic science is insufficiently connected to “mainstream” science or “national science assets.””
The Government have a very strong agenda on promoting their data strategy. They have a very strong agenda on research and development, with significant increases in public expenditure, support, research and development. I would be interested to know whether the Minister has any thoughts, as we look at the Bill and at the future for forensic science and its application to law and justice, on whether the Government see a role for Government policy in that area.
Other problems were raised in “Seton Hall Law Review” paper:
“Forensic science testimony and reporting often over-claims—that is, overstates the probative value of the evidence.”
We have had a tour de force today about dead hands being transported from Germany, and about lebkuchen in forensic science—is that right? Not pfefferkuchen? [Interruption.] Okay, just to be clear on our kuchens. We must remember that one kuchen is not the same as the next. Is there a sense in which regulatory underpinning will enhance or evaluate whether forensic evidence is being used in a fair way in the judgment of cases?
The Minister himself spoke about the 12 citizens in a jury. If we are presented with forensic information about which we, if we are called on to a jury, have very little personal understanding, but it is presented with such authority and from a body that has a statutory underpinning, do we give more authority to that evidence than perhaps the evidence itself warrants? Have we investigated whether this doubling down on the potential value of forensic evidence is perhaps taking one strand of evidence and giving it a more forceful value in the deliberations of a jury? We must admit that, when we consider certain areas, we just look at the expert and think, “Well, they’re smarter than I am—they must be telling the truth. It’s a science and I don’t really understand it, but I know that I’ve seen it on TV.” In fact, in addition to “Quincy, M.E.”, there are 112 other TV shows and movies related to forensic science.
Richard Fuller
Perhaps the Minister has watched all of them and can advise us.
Kit Malthouse
I understand the issue that the hon. Gentleman is raising, but he surely cannot believe that faulty or non-standard forensic evidence should be tolerated within the judicial system or that we should have no sense of regulation or, indeed, standards that need to be adhered to. Of course, he will also recognise that while forensic evidence, underpinned by statutory codes or otherwise, is entered into court as evidence, it is still subject to challenge, as is the skill, the technique and the science used, by defence counsel or, indeed, prosecution counsel, when it is entered in. It is part of our adversarial system of justice that, whatever evidence is put in is still open to challenge and is not taken as definitive, and it is then for the jury to make a judgment. If forensic evidence is offered and it is from an accredited organisation, which is reaching a certain standard or not, then we would hope that had some weight with the jury, but it does not absent it from challenge by the defendant’s counsel.
Richard Fuller
The Minister makes some very sensible points in rejoinder. Let me see if I cannot unpick some of them, although generally I agree with him, if I may say so. The point that I am trying to make, in the context of evidence being under challenge in a court, is that if the audience—in this case, the jury—does not have specific scientific knowledge and has been in a culture where forensic science is seen as always on the side of the good guys and always trying to do the right thing, and it is presented with evidence that has the authority of a statutory underpinning of standards, we are doubling and trebling down on the scale of what a defence barrister has to do to overcome the presumptions of a jury that is saying, “Oh well, it’s evidence, it’s expertise. I’ve seen it on TV and therefore it must be right.” My concern is that, with this marginal move to provide a statutory underpinning, we are in a sense giving another stamp of validation that makes precisely the challenge of juries, which he is saying is so important, a little bit more difficult.
Darren Jones
To give the hon. Gentleman a little comfort, the case that he makes will in fact be resolved by this Bill. The issue we have today is that when evidence is presented, the defence can say that it came from a provider that is not accredited compared with a provider that is accredited, because there is a lack of standardisation. The Bill, in enforcing standards, will mean that the very question being put to the jury is resolved because all providers will be accredited as opposed to some versus others.
Richard Fuller
I will give way to the Minister and then respond to both hon. Members.
Kit Malthouse
To amplify that point, my hon. Friend and I may be drawing the line in a different place, but presumably he does believe that anybody who attends as a witness at court to present forensic evidence should have some kind of scientific qualification that is certified and held as a standard, and which therefore underpins the expertise they are giving? Presumably he does not think that anybody could walk in off the street and present forensic evidence. There needs to be such a regulatory hurdle, as it were, before they are allowed to appear as an expert witness. I guess what we are saying, as the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones) said, is that we would like to get to a situation where the question in people’s minds about whether these people are amateurs, cowboys or actually know what they are doing—on both sides, because do not forget the defence can present opposing forensic evidence should it so wish—is settled earlier.
Richard Fuller
If I may say, that contribution from my hon. Friend has been one of the most valuable. He talked about how the Bill, in providing a statutory underpinning, will provide an opportunity for those listening to evidence to have more of a structure for what they are hearing that is completely independent from the case at hand. I am grateful to him for raising that.
I would like to move, if I may, in the second quarter of my contribution—or the second half of my contribution—to the broader issue of Parliament, regulators and the way in which we review the powers we give to regulatory agencies. Notwithstanding how a regulator is welcome in this particular sense, there are broader issues at stake about what Parliament and Government do next with regulators.
I point out to the House that this regulator will, I presume, be responsible to the Home Office—I hope so, because that is the only Department for which I have the data to hand—but 30 agencies already report into the Home Office, and that is of 413 agencies and other public bodies listed on the gov.uk website, all of which have an array of statutory or other regulatory enforcement powers. I ask hon. Members to consider when was the last time any hon. Member conducted a thorough review of any one of those agencies.
Kit Malthouse
I hesitate to intervene on my hon. Friend, but I think that in the early days of the Cameron Government, Francis Maude, the then Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, undertook a thorough review of all bodies and quangos across government and consequently reduced the number significantly.
Richard Fuller
Indeed, he reduced it to the 413 I just mentioned. Heaven knows what it was before. It is evident that although the number may have reduced, parliamentary oversight has not improved. As politicians, we are far more interested in looking forward to the new and the additive than in looking in the rear view mirror to see how well the agencies we have already created are operating and whether they are keeping to their original scope. Are they implementing the powers that they have, whether or not statutorily underpinned?
Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con)
I start my comments by paying tribute to police officer who we lost last night. It is always a tragedy when that happens. We cannot forget that ultimately our police officers are heroes, and we need to ensure that they have protection as they go out on that thin blue line, fighting to protect us all. In doing so, I also pay tribute to my police force, West Midlands police, and in particular our police in Sandwell, who have been doing a fantastic job in very difficult circumstances.
I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones). I am sure he is full of praise today—I do not know whether he is fed up with it or revelling in it—but this is a very well-thought-out Bill, and I will speak in support of it. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller), who, in a tour de force of a speech, has shown new Members such as myself how to do it on a sitting Friday. I do not know whether I will be of that calibre just yet, but hopefully within the next few years, I might be able to get to that standard. It was a really well-considered and well-thought-out contribution, and I listened with much interest.
I am very conscious of repetition; I am afraid that, unfortunately, I am probably going to say a lot of what hon. Members have already said. Right now, we have a non-statutory framework that, as many hon. Members have said, is toothless in many respects. Yes, it identifies requirements for improvement and it looks at quality standards to a degree, but it is ultimately the enforcement action that is the issue here.
To draw analogies in other spaces, let us take the example of advertising. It is regulated in a non-statutory way by the Advertising Standards Authority, which, similarly, cannot take enforcement measures to the extent of taking action against those advertisers. I draw that analogy having worked within that framework; I can see the frustration sometimes, when we see things that blatantly go wrong and should not happen, but the regulator cannot do much about it.
I support the notion that we would put those teeth in and enable enforcement on those issues, allowing a regulatory body to take matters up and to ensure that things are done in the right way. That is important, because let us look at what we are talking about here. Forensic science is not the only part of policing; it is not the only part of how we ensure that justice is done and, as my hon. Friend the Minister has articulated so brilliantly today, there are other parts of this patchwork, but it is a vital part.
Forensic science is not a silver bullet, nor is it the only thing we do in our criminal justice system. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Julie Marson) explained traditional police work well, with the story of her father and how he went about trying to bring about justice. He is a prime example of the other element of that patchwork of justice and police administration. None the less, forensic science is also an important part.
One of the things that has been drawn out in this debate today is the fact that crime is evolving and changing. My hon. Friend the Minister is a big advocate of the idea that the digital space is an evolving part of this crime framework. Indeed, so is the hon. Member for Bristol North West, particularly in his work on the on the Science and Technology Committee. It is an evolving space and we have to develop and adapt to ensure that, as crime changes, the regulatory underpinning that ensures that we get the investigation of those crimes right changes with it. From that point of view, it is imperative that we ensure that our regulators can take the actions that are needed.
We are talking about people impacted by crime. We are talking about human beings. As hon. Members have said today, we are not just talking about the “CSI”-type, big-level crimes; we are not talking about the high-profile stuff, because a lot of this stuff goes into the day-to-day, bread-and-butter crime that we talk about, which many of us get in our inboxes all the time. It is the constituent down the road who has had their house burgled. It is someone who has had something stolen from them that might not be valuable but has sentimental value. It is the things that make our constituents afraid at night and worry our communities. That is the reason we are here, in a way: to ensure that they are protected and looked after, and we can do that by ensuring that those crimes are investigated in the right way. That is what the Bill is trying to achieve.
Ultimately, this legislation is not controversial. I am sure the hon. Member for Bristol North West will agree with me when I say that these discussions have been going on for some time. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Chris Green) for his work in this space; I forgot to do so at the start of my speech. These measures have been discussed for nearly a decade. We are not covering new ground in calling for the regulator to have stronger enforcement powers and to ensure that, when forensic science is part of an investigation, it is done properly.
I want to turn to the points raised about the cost. I appreciate that cost is always an important point, and as a Conservative Member of Parliament, fiscal responsibility is at the core of my beliefs. My research into this market shows that we are sometimes talking about costs in the region of £70 million—£70 million of public money. These are substantial figures.
Kit Malthouse
I just want to put on the record that the overall spend on forensics across policing is actually about half a billion pounds.
Shaun Bailey
I thank my hon. Friend for that clarification, which is helpful to the line that I am trying to pursue. Ultimately, to safeguard public money and ensure that it is used properly, there sometimes has to be an outlay. We have heard today about the £400,000 cost of this service being regulated properly. I do not underestimate how much money that is; it is a significant cost. But in the long term, it is perhaps a cost that we need to bear, to protect the half a billion pounds to which the Minister referred and to be fiscally responsible with taxpayers’ money, in the pursuit of ensuring that forensic science is done properly. That does not detract from the need to properly monitor, as I am sure we will, the money spent on ensuring that enforcement is done properly.
Many Members, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope), asked about enforcement of the existing codes of practice. The lawyers in this place—I believe the hon. Member for Bristol North West is a solicitor—will know that, just because a rule is there, it does not mean that it is necessarily followed. If someone feels, “There’s a rule, but if I don’t follow it, what are they going to do?” there is a temptation. I am certainly not saying that any of our fantastic providers of forensic services would not follow the rules, but the existence of a rule in itself is not an impetus to follow it. Just because something is there, it does not necessarily mean that someone will abide by it. That, I am afraid, is why we sometimes need enforcement action. We need to ensure that when people do not follow the rules—when they do not stick to the standards and do what they are supposed to do—there are consequences. From that perspective, I was not quite sure where my hon. Friend’s argument was going. We need to ensure that there is a real impetus to follow these rules.
I turn to the wider points raised about the digital space and the development of crime. We have seen reports time and again of issues in the digital space as it develops, because it is ever growing and ever evolving. Members have raised issues about the collection, handling and storage of data during investigations. Those issues will only grow and continue to be pertinent as this space develops. We will have an ongoing discussion about this for many years to come. This Bill is not the end of that discussion; if anything, it is the start of it. As times goes on, we must adapt our legislative framework and our enforcement framework. It will be key to the success of this legislation that the enforcement framework adapts to changes that occur as this space develops; it is vital to ensure that we are flexible.
I am conscious that other Members wish to speak, so I will try to refine my comments and allow others to come in. When forensic science gets it right, in conjunction with other parts of our criminal justice system and criminal justice framework, it gets it right. We can think of some examples of cases that have been solved through forensic science, such as the horrific crime against Stephen Lawrence and how those criminals were brought to justice. I can think of other more local crimes as well. The fact of the matter is that when we get it right in this space, we really do, and that is what the Bill is about. It is about getting this right for real people: the people we represent, the people who put us here to keep them safe. I believe that our first and foremost priority in this place is keeping the people of this country safe.
In conclusion, it is a pleasure to support the Bill. It is an absolutely fantastic contribution by the hon. Member for Bristol North West. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West for his work in this space.
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
I thank hon. Members for their words of condolence, sorrow and support for the awful crime that was committed last night against not only a police officer but all of us.
Mr Deputy Speaker, it is to your loss that you have not been in the Chair for the entirety of this morning’s debate, because it has often considered profound issues such as liberty, law, crime, justice, freedom and the boundaries of the state. Although I have an extensive and detailed speech prepared, I am conscious that hon. Members want to continue on to other business, so I will truncate it, not least because many of the remarks made by hon. Members and, indeed, the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman would be repeated. Repetition is not alien to the Chamber, but I do not want to detain anyone longer than I need to.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones) on coming second in the ballot and on bringing this legislation to the House. He has worked constructively with me and the Department to get it into a shape where we are able to offer our support to it, not least in the light of the Bill that my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Chris Green) put forward in the last Parliament, which also had Government support but sadly ran out of time.
I know that the hon. Member for Bristol North West had aspirations to take the Bill further with measures relating to biometrics, but unfortunately we are not able to support them at this time. I am grateful to him for acknowledging that issue and trying to build consensus, which we have seen exhibited on both sides of the House, and focus on where we are in agreement. As I said in an earlier intervention, we are committed—it is there in black and white in our manifesto—to building a robust legal framework in which some of those technologies, as they accelerate into all our lives, can be embraced by the police. I am hopeful of coming forward quite soon to update the House on what those plans might be.
The Government are committed to keeping our streets safe. Scientifically robust evidence is one of policing’s most important tools for investigating crime. Police forces spend approximately £500 million a year on forensic services, with about 80% by value conducted by police forces in-house. The successful prosecution of county lines gangs, as we have heard already, is often dependent on high-quality forensics, including digital forensics, DNA and cell site analysis. As I illustrated in an earlier intervention, it was critical to the conviction of some of the killers of Stephen Lawrence.
I want to put on record that, as has been said, this country has some of the world’s best forensic scientists in public law enforcement and in the private sector. Every day, their expertise is deployed to solve crime and deliver justice. I welcome the significant efforts they have made over the last few years in markedly improving turnaround times. They and policing colleagues have faced a number of challenges in recent years, however, including constrained resources and a growth in the volume of new sources of evidence, in particular digital material.
On digital forensics, it is important that police and other law enforcement agencies have access to the evidence they need, including digital data, to ensure that they can secure justice for victims. Most investigations now have a digital component, and I am clear that policing must have the capability and capacity to deal with the increased demand and complexity. This requires skilled investigators and digital experts, who can be helped significantly by better validated technology. That is why we have invested £15 million in the last year in the National Police Chiefs’ Council’s “Transforming Forensics” programme to develop innovative solutions to address the rising volumes and particular challenges faced in digital forensics across many crime types.
To improve criminal justice outcomes, a measure of regulation is required to underpin delivery, set standards, improve outcomes and provide the structure on which to build for the future, not just in digital forensics but across all disciplines. I believe that that principle has been broadly accepted across the House.
This morning, we have had a series of contributions from Members and I will try to answer the questions that I have been asked. If I cannot, I undertake that my team will review the footage and answer them in writing, so that as the Bill proceeds to Committee, as I hope it will, we can deal with those issues.
A couple of issues came up during the contribution of the hon. Member for Bristol North West, both prompted by questions from Government Members. The first was about the consequences for employees of an enforcement notice being issued by the regulator. Fundamentally, it is for the employer—the force in question—to decide whether the matter is misconduct or otherwise. One would hope that just the enforcement notice itself would improve compliance.
Secondly, there was a question about whether the codes have been published recently. The updated codes under the current structure were published on 22 April, but Members can be forgiven for missing that, given what was taking place at the time.
My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope), who sadly is not in his place, in what I think will in time become known as a Chopian intervention, asked about the expansion in costs from £100,000 to £400,000, having forensically gone over the previous Bill and the cost estimates. I am led to believe that the original cost estimate was, in the technical civil service term, a “rush job” and possibly not quite as accurate as it might have been. There has been extensive work since, and I am told that the current figure of £400,000 is much more robust.
We had a delightfully meandering speech from the hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq), who also sadly cannot be with us. She highlighted the need for quality control, although she drew an unfortunate delineation between public and private. In the end, a scientist is a scientist, whether in public or in private. One would hope, given the standard and world renown of British scientists, that the same level of service could be underpinned in both.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West gave a long and detailed speech, which was worthy of the best traditions of this House in its forensic—forgive the pun—examination of this issue. It highlighted his commitment to the subject, shown most notably in the Bill he brought forward, as well as his background in this area and the expertise he can bring.
My hon. Friend spoke about the impact on smaller providers. We are alive to the possibility of detrimental impact on smaller providers in the area. We will work closely with them to ensure that they can deal with what is, frankly, an environment with which they should already be complying. At the moment it seems to be voluntary. It will, if the legislation passes, become compulsory. They might need some help—shall we say—to transition.
The hon. Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting) gave his usual humorous speech, which was welcome as this can sometimes be a dry and technical subject. Incidentally, he mentioned getting home in time for “Gogglebox”. Apparently, Mr Deputy Speaker, I was mentioned on “Gogglebox” last Friday. Now there is fame. I never sought celebrity in this place, but finally I have made it. I think it was something to do with people snitching on their neighbours, which is not actually something I said, of course, but it made it on to “Gogglebox”. We look forward to hearing about the hon. Gentleman’s jury service. Hopefully he stays in that box in the court and not the other one.
The hon. Gentleman spoke about a level playing field. It is important to recognise that the imposition of this regulatory environment will create a much more level playing field and, I hope, satisfy the concerns raised by a lot of Members about the confidence with which courts can deal with forensic evidence, from wherever it comes—a public provider or whatever the individual company, large or small. There must be a known quantity of quality that sits behind all the forensic evidence that is adduced in this country.
My hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Gareth Davies) also raised the issue of cost and notice. The passage of this Bill and our attempts in a previous Parliament should give notice to providers that compliance and enforcement notices are coming, so they should start to get their act in order. We had a series of well informed speeches from the Government side—obviously, interest has been taken in the subject—with a number of questions that need to be answered. I propose to answer them in writing.
However, there is one Member I want to address specifically: my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller), who reminded us all of how much we missed him during his extended recess between the elections of 2017 and 2019. The intellectual force that he brings to his arguments has caused me to question some of the issues that he raised. I give him my undertaking that I will go back and give them consideration. If he finds himself on the Bill Committee, I will be more than happy to tangle with him again on the philosophical issues that he raises. I ask him to bear in mind that what we are about here, in adducing laws and regulations, is protecting the public, not invading their privacy. I hold that dear to my heart, and I know he does, too. This Bill provides for the codes and regulations that the regulator puts in place to be approved by the Secretary of State and laid before the House. In that way, they get democratic consent for what he rightly points out is the possibility of invasion—in a just cause, but invasion nevertheless—of our fellow citizens’ privacy.
We should acknowledge that accreditation alone is not necessarily a silver bullet. As the regulator herself told The Guardian earlier this year:
“Achieving accreditation to a quality standard is neither the beginning nor the end of improving quality. Engendering a real culture of quality requires ongoing leadership and investment in people, processes and innovation.”
I could not agree more, and from what I have heard from Members across the House, I think they are broadly in agreement too.
Before I close, I would like to take the opportunity to thank publicly Dr Gillian Tully, whose term as regulator is coming to an end, for her excellent work and the dedication she has shown to the role. She is a first-rate scientist and a dedicated public servant. She has never been afraid to speak truth to power, and has tenaciously ensured that the issue we are debating today has not been allowed to fall. I regret that she will not be in post to exercise these new powers, but I hope very much that her successor will benefit from the legislation that she has done more than anyone to make happen. I am sure all Members will wish to join me in thanking her for her public service. I am grateful to everybody who has contributed to the debate.
Draft Surrender of Offensive Weapons (Compensation) Regulations 2020
Kit Malthouse Excerpts(5 years, 4 months ago)
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The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Surrender of Offensive Weapons (Compensation) Regulations 2020.
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Elliott. The regulations, laid before the House on 9 June, are made under the Offensive Weapons Act 2019. The Act is about tackling serious violence, including violence involving the use of knives, firearms or acids and other corrosive substances. It will prohibit the possession of specified offensive and unpleasant weapons, knives and firearms that would have devastating consequences if they were used violently. Members might recall the detailed scrutiny that was given to these prohibitions during the passage of the Act through the House. Our focus today is on the arrangements for surrendering the weapons to the police and for the payment of compensation.
The regulations reflect the principle that was recognised during the passage of the Act that prohibiting items that are currently lawfully owned impacts on the individual’s right to property. It was agreed by both Houses that it would be right and fair that the lawful owners of the weapons who surrendered them to the police in accordance with the arrangements we are making should be fairly compensated for the loss of their property. The arrangements for surrender and compensation will apply to England and Wales and will extend to Scotland and Northern Ireland in respect of firearms and related ancillary equipment only.
The regulations provide for a three-month surrender period during which the lawful owners of the weapons will be able to surrender their property to the police. If they wish to claim compensation, they will need to do so at the same time as the surrender using a form that we will make available before the scheme starts. We will also make available a values list setting out the standard levels of compensation for all the weapons that come within the scheme. A claimant can indicate on the claim form whether they accept the standard level of compensation or whether they are claiming a higher amount, which they are able to do, provided they can support it with a credible and up-to-date valuation. The regulations give some examples of the types of valuations that would be acceptable, but we have sought to avoid undue prescription. Our overarching objective is to compensate fairly those who give up their lawful property so that we can take these dangerous weapons out of circulation.
The claims for compensation will be processed by the Home Office. We will do so as quickly as practicable following the launch of the scheme. The draft regulations deliver the full intent of the measures set out in the Offensive Weapons Act to allow for surrender and compensation. I commend them to the House.
Kit Malthouse
I thank hon. Members for their contributions. I will deal first with the questions from the hon. Member for Croydon Central, who speaks for the Opposition. I hope that she will be reassured to have, from the person who led the fight against the last spike in knife crime in the capital, between 2008 and 2012, my personal commitment to dealing with what is undoubtedly an increase in knife crime over the past couple or three years. We are taking lots of action on that. Of course, we are, as she knows, rapidly expanding police capacity. The recruitment of police officers is going extremely well: we are well ahead of target on our first 6,000, and I am confident that we will get to 20,000 over the next two and a half years or possibly before. That will address many of the capacity concerns that she expressed.
On start dates, we have not yet agreed a start date. Given the current stage of the pandemic, we have to be careful about judging a time at which it is appropriate for people to travel to police stations and at which the police have capacity to administer the scheme. In discussion with the police, we are hoping to agree a date later this year, but we will have to see how the pandemic progresses.
On the standard rate of compensation and related questions from the hon. Member for Strangford, we had to set a base price somewhere and there were two considerations: first of all, that the administration of the scheme did not cost us more than the worth of the item; but, secondly, that by setting a bar too low we might stimulate people, frankly, to go to their kitchen drawer, find a knife and turn up to get some money for it. So, £30 was deemed an appropriate level, whereby we would not stimulate that kind of activity but that would still provide a fair level of compensation for the majority of people we are talking about.
I should just point out that obviously these regulations do not cover items such as Purdey shotguns; those shotguns are still perfectly legal, subject to licensing conditions, and will continue to be so. They do cover certain types of rifle and bump stocks, and a list of other weapons, which should, in theory, have been circulated to Members. I am happy to write to the hon. Gentleman with specific details about what might be on that list.
Jim Shannon
Perhaps I have got it wrong, and if I have I apologise to the Minister. As he knows, the firearms law in Northern Ireland is very different from the law here on the mainland; we need to have a licence for everything from an air rifle to a high-calibre rifle and so on, and in between we have shotguns. Any weapon that someone has that is not licensed is illegal. Therefore, if someone finds it as I have outlined, it is not as if it is legal any more. Does that mean that those shotguns perhaps do not come under this scheme? I just want to clarify that, to be sure. If it is an illegal weapon, and it is not held under a firearms certificate, then I ask the question: does it qualify?
Kit Malthouse
As far as I am aware, the intention of the scheme—I am happy to write to the hon. Gentleman to clarify matters, because, as he says, the arrangements in Northern Ireland are slightly different from those in the rest of the country—is just to compensate people for those items that were banned by the 2019 Act, which does not include shotguns. There will be a list of items attached to the form, with the standard list of compensations, and in Northern Ireland it will not include offensive weapons, other than firearms and ancillary equipment such as bipods, sights and those kinds of things. It is largely for firearms where there is, as it were, gas-assisted expulsion of ammunition. However, as I say, I am happy to write to him to clarify matters, so that he is clear in his mind and can communicate the requirements to his constituents. On the compensation issue that he raised, while there will be standard rates, it is possible for people to make a higher claim, subject to a valuation, and the regulations detail the types of evidence that can be offered to make a case for a higher valuation.
In a small number of circumstances, it may be the case that there are some items of historical importance. We are in conversation with Ministers at the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport about how we might allow people to surrender such weapons, perhaps to museums or to other organisations, where that importance can be recognised. Hopefully, I have answered the questions that were asked and we can move towards consideration of the regulations.
Question put and agreed to.
9.38 am
Committee rose.