Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Lord Browne of Ladyton Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 27th March 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister and his colleagues for their approach to the Bill and for his remarks at the beginning, which were very welcome. We all have an interest in trying to ensure that the Bill works, so I thank the Minister for his comments about that—and I can reciprocate with regard to how the Government have approached this in trying to enhance and improve the Bill. I appreciate what the Minister said about the amendments in this group, and all the various amendments that have been introduced, as we have heard, in a positive way, in seeking to improve the Bill.

I do not intend to speak at great length about the various amendments. I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, for his support of my Amendment 4 and by saying that I very much agree with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, said on his Amendment 63. Essentially, what we are saying here is that the Bill has a lot within it that we appreciate, accept and think are important steps forward—but alongside that, most of us want to see the Bill having some teeth and the Government explaining to us how the various details are laid out, how the measures will be enforced and how we will see the change of culture that we have just heard about.

I will speak specifically to my Amendment 4. Noble Lords will see that, in essence, we are probing what the Government’s intentions are. Clause 1 has four objectives for the registrar. The amendment in my name and those of my noble friends Lord Ponsonby and Lady Blake seeks to understand whether anything could be gained by inserting a new objective 5. No doubt the Minister will say that objective 4 means the same, which may be why the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, is not needed. We are suggesting that there needs to be a more proactive statement in the Bill about what the Government are seeking in terms of the information that the registrar collects and how it is then assessed to see whether it should be shared more widely, particularly with the various enforcement bodies.

The objective I am proposing—I will not read it all out—includes in paragraph (b)

“sharing information about any issues of concern regarding companies with relevant public bodies and law enforcement agencies.”

Why would the Government not put that in the Bill? I suspect they will say that objective 4 deals with that, but I think there is a difference between acting proactively and what the Government have in objective 4, which is

“to minimise the extent to which companies and others … carry out unlawful activities”.

I suggest that is not quite strong enough. It is not about minimising the extent; it is about wherever information comes to light with the registrar that something untoward is happening. Surely there should be an obligation on the registrar to share that with the relevant law enforcement bodies. Minimising the extent is not sufficient; we do not do that with any other law—we do not minimise the extent to which violence takes place, for example. That may be the aim, but overall the intention of the law is to stop it. So I suggest that objective 4 could be strengthened.

On Amendment 63 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, the noble Lord can and did speak for himself, but in his proposed new subsection (1B)(b) he is getting at that very point in stating that the registrar must

“share any evidence of unlawful activity it identifies with the relevant law enforcement agency”.

That is exactly the same point I am trying to address in my amendment. It is not about minimising the extent to which it takes place; it is saying that the information should always be shared. Can the Minister outline the Government’s thinking? Is their objective with the registrar that all information that may be of concern should be shared with the relevant law enforcement agencies?

Without wishing to be pedantic about this, can I ask: what is the relevant law enforcement agency with which the registrar should share the information? There is the Serious Fraud Office; there is the City of London Police; there are local police forces; there is HMRC and all sorts of other enforcement bodies. The Government will have given thought to this, but can the Minister explain to the Committee where that information should go and who is responsible for enforcing it? Is there any report back to the registrar? Once the information has been shared, is it then just a matter for the law enforcement body, or does the registrar have an obligation to see where that has got to and what has happened to it? We all know that an issue that frustrates people is not knowing what happens when things are reported and where they have got to. Alongside that, given the significant numbers that the Minister quoted of those that have to register, what are the resource implications for those other bodies in taking that up?

My final point may seem a bit obscure. I am not a great expert on this, but I know from one limited case that I had some experience of that one of the problems was a lack of forensic accountants and the ability to understand what was going on within various company accounts. I was told it was a skill area that is never really talked about. I wonder whether the Government, given their intentions, have given any thought to how they ensure that the necessary skill base is there within police forces and the Serious Fraud Office for crimes that are referred to them to be properly understood and investigated. I am sure that some people are experts in company law and all this, but the problem is that when people say “Follow the money”, sometimes it is pretty difficult to do that. I wonder whether the Minister might say something about how he sees that.

In general, we welcome the Bill and the government amendments before us. I think the amendments that the noble Lords, Lord Leigh and Lord Agnew, have tabled make some very important points. I hope that my Amendment 4 also helps the Government explain to the Committee what their intentions are. If the Bill is to mean anything, it has to be properly enforced.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

I had not intended to speak on this group, but my noble friend Lord Coaker has drawn my attention to the active verbs in the subsections of Clause 1. I am at a loss to understand why they are used. Why is objective 3

“to minimise the risk of records kept by the registrar creating a false or misleading impression to members of the public”

and not “to prevent companies and others carrying out unlawful activities or facilitating the carrying out of unlawful activities”? It seems odd that the objective is not the complete protection of people who may be duped or defrauded or have their money stolen from them by the devices created here. I appreciate that one cannot guarantee perfection, but it seems to me that by legislating in this fashion we recognise that there will be an element of that, since the objective we set the registrar is only to minimise, not to prevent it altogether.

[Lord Macpherson of Earl’s Court (CB)]

My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Agnew. I declare my interest as chairman of C Hoare and Co. I apologise for not being here at Second Reading. I had a good excuse: a very bad dose of flu.

I have two brief points. First, legislation on its own does not change an institution—I worked in the Treasury for 30 years and saw many institutions come and go—but it can be really helpful in supporting the leadership of that institution to change its character and the way in which it works. I believe the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, would support the leadership in bringing that about.

My second point draws on my experience of seeing through a lot of reform to financial services regulation. I think it is fair to say that the lesson of the 2000s was that tick-box regulation really does not take you very far; a proportionate, risk-based approach is the answer. I believe that the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, very much goes with the flow of better regulation.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I appreciate my noble friend’s comments. I do not believe that I suggested at any point that this was not baked into the cake of what Companies House is expected to deliver. I would be delighted to have further dialogue with Members around this but, in my humble opinion, the entire Bill is designed to ensure that the registrar takes a risk-based approach to ensuring the integrity of the information at Companies House. I am very comfortable on that, and the Government are very clear on it. We are wary of having duplicative statements in the Bill because that causes more complications when we are trying to create the enforcement regime and the integrity regime that we want to bring to bear.

On the key clauses and the language therein, I am certainly happy to consult my dictionary as noble Lords suggest. I am sorry that I was unable to bring one with me. It would be unusual for us to be quite so prescriptive in part 3 of the four objectives. I am delighted to have further conversations if noble Lords feel that that would be more helpful in setting the right cultural change at Companies House, but I am wary of being too prescriptive. I hope this is not misunderstood by Members of this Committee, but we want to avoid a box-ticking exercise because that is exactly what criminals like, as they can then navigate the system. We want to allow the registrar and her officers to use their judgment because that will lead to far better outcomes when it comes to achieving the mission that all of us are embarking on together.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

On a plain reading of this clause, the registrar is being required to promote these objectives, but in objective 4 she is being required not to prevent but

“to minimise the extent to which”

crimes can be committed. What is the problem about setting an objective that she is to prevent, and Parliament is telling her that is the objective we want her to have but recognising of course that perfection is very seldom found in these situations? Why do we set an objective that is less than what we really want? There is no question that Parliament wants these crimes prevented, not minimised.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I appreciate the noble Lord’s comment. We have discussed this at some length. I am personally very comfortable defining further the usage of “minimise”, but the intention is very clear. This is not about “minimising” criminal activity to a so-called acceptable percentage; it is ultimately to eradicate it entirely. I am sure there are good reasons why this language has been used, in order to enable an element of flexibility and facilitation for this Bill to operate effectively. I am sure noble Lords will sympathise with me when it comes to legal drafting of text, but the assurances around this Bill are that it should do exactly what we want it to do. I ask noble Lords not to press their amendments and I commend Amendment 1.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, all this is well above my legal pay grade, but the Minister has no doubt heard all the voices; clearly, there are flaws in this new clause. I suggest that he listen to those voices, take advice and not move this amendment and that we should come back to this at a later stage. As the Minister can see, there is considerable appetite around the Room for a proactive approach to the new Companies Act powers and duties, the registrar and so on. However, there are genuine concerns that have been expressed, so I suggest that the Minister takes this away and considers it pretty carefully, given the opinions that have been vouchsafed this afternoon.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am fully in favour of this matter being taken away and simplified, if it can be. I just take advantage of this opportunity to do something I probably do not do very often, which is to support the existence of the words “reasonable excuse” as a defence in this strict liability clause. It is a long time since I practised law, but I am certain that there are lots of regulatory and other offences out there that have this defence of reasonable excuse. I am absolutely certain that the statutory provision that makes it a strict liability offence to carry an offensive weapon allows, in its drafting, a defence if you are doing it with reasonable excuse. I do not think that these two things are inconsistent, but this is not clear.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

This has been an interesting debate—and a very lawyer-heavy debate —on the juxtaposition of “strict liability” with “reasonable excuse”. I can claim some knowledge here as a sitting magistrate in that I deal with those sorts of things quite regularly, frequently with respect to knife crime and traffic matters. It is a conundrum; it is worth examining further and I hope the Minister will take it further.

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones described this as above his legal pay grade. Talking as a magistrate, I am an unpaid legal practitioner. Nevertheless, the Minister should take up the invitation of members of the Committee to look at this further. I can see that it is open to confusion, and I also take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, about putting other officers in default. I hope that the Minister will take these comments in the spirit in which they were made and that there may be further opportunity for discussion on the points raised.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Lord Browne of Ladyton Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 18th April 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, in the light of what we have just heard, I want to touch on the micro-company side of things. Micro-companies may be small but they are not unimportant. They are probably the single biggest sort of company used for VAT fraud, for example. There has been a lot of publicity recently about some poor chap in Cardiff. Several hundred companies were registered at his address, then he started receiving large bills from HMRC. It is precisely this sort of company that is used for that; we should not be too generous to these companies in relation to reporting requirements.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Leigh of Hurley, together with the notice given by the noble Lord, Lord Sarfraz, that he intends to oppose the Question that Clause 54 stand part of the Bill; I suspect that in his absence this will not be part of the process but I will cover the issues that are raised.

I will confine myself to a few observations. First, no one wishes to stifle micro-enterprises with too onerous a set of reporting duties but, in a Bill that has the word “transparency” in its very name, it is surely important that micro-entities are not exempted from such a reporting duty. That small businesses are not merely the flywheel but the very motor of the UK economy is well known and constantly rehearsed. I have no need to go through all that but flourishing surely cannot come at the price of opacity when that opacity will be exploited in the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, suggests it has been in the past and we know is a problem.

The amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, do not merely serve as a symbolic recognition of this fact but serve a useful practical purpose, which I will turn to. It is the stated aim of the Government for Companies House to be a fully digital organisation by 2025. The amendments under discussion ensure that electronic documents submitted to the registrar not only conform with its standard electronic format but ensure that they meet standards of accuracy, completeness and consistency. Surely, each of these measures is desirable and, taken together, they are more desirable still.

If the Government are not minded to accept the noble Lord’s amendments, it would be useful to know which of these requirements they regard as superfluous. It would also be helpful to know how the Government feel that these amendments fail to assist Companies House in meeting its own target of becoming fully digital in the next two years, which seems a very challenging target.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, I just want to come in on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, on micro-accounts. It was actually 11,000 companies that were registered to this poor man’s residential address in Wales. It all relates to a new loophole, which has been discovered by foreign traders selling on the internet. Up until Brexit, they were essentially avoiding VAT because there was no real mechanism for HMRC to recover it all around the world but, when we left the European Union, we brought in our own regulations. There is a loophole that if, as in this case, you are a Chinese trader and you register a company in the UK, you do not have to pay VAT through the platform on which you are selling the goods.

HRMC is completely floored by this. In its letter to Meg Hillier, it said simply that it had not recognised any fraud so far. Let us get real. Part of the problem is that it is not getting the data. If it could scrape all the data off those 11,000 company accounts, it would very quickly see the pattern.

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[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak on this group of amendments, but I rise just to say that I agree with everything that noble Lords have said thus far. My enthusiasm peaked when the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, spoke. What we have done in this debate is create the environment in which we are making these really important changes.

I have just one complicated question, with subcategories, for the Minister. I approach this question on the basis that if an ACSP is unwilling to have its name associated with its professional work and assessment, it seems to me that that should be a disqualification from it being appointed an ACSP. I ask the Minister: were ACSPs consulted at the consultation stage, before this legislation was drafted? Did the ACSP cohort ask for this level of anonymity which the Government are gifting it? I just cannot believe that, if they think they are doing a good job, they will not want their name associated with it—all the more for those abroad. If the City of London, our Companies Act and our registration are to be all the things that the Government wish for, it will be a sterling mark for those abroad that they are able to facilitate access to that environment because they are accredited by the Government of the United Kingdom, and the Secretary of State specifically, to do this work.

Why are we in this situation, where this really important part of the gateway into the system of limited liability is in the hands of individuals and businesses which the Government seem to think want nobody to know they are doing the work? It is incredible. I repeat: if an ACSP or somebody who wishes it, says, “I will do this only if you do not associate my name with the work publicly”, you should say to them, “Well, goodbye. You’re not doing it at all”.

[Lord Faulks (Non-Afl)]

The noble Lord has anticipated the point that I wanted to make, but I will make it very briefly. I am puzzled why we are so keen to protect anonymity. What is the respectable argument in favour of anonymity? Can the Minister help us with that? A solicitor, for example, will append their name to a document, identifying litigation or other contexts, and many other professionals have similar obligations. Why are we affording these particular people some special allowance? It simply does not make sense.

As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, said, for some time, those of us involved in the register of overseas entities were anxious that there should be improved verification. I gather that there has been some movement in that direction. I ask the Minister to consider having regard to the weight of opinion that there should be a similar movement in this area.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. I would like to clarify my point, which is that this is a very relevant point raised by a number of noble Lords in the Committee. I have been doing a great deal of investigation into this point over the past few weeks and have great sympathy with the sentiments expressed about making sure that the bodies that verify identity can be tracked in some way, in public as much as in private, because I feel that to be very important.

However, there may be technical points that I have overlooked, so I am reluctant to commit today to accepting an amendment, as noble Lords can imagine. It would be inappropriate for me to do so, but I hope noble Lords can hear from my clear words the commitment that we make to see whether the principle around this amendment could be made possible as we look into how the Bill will develop over the forthcoming period, so I greatly thank the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, for his amendment, and I look forward to having discussions over the next few weeks to see how we can find a way to try to implement the philosophy of the principles.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

I rise to press the Minister to answer my question about the consultation and what ACSPs asked for in relation to this. I am confident that the Minister will have that discussion and include everyone in it. It is very clear what his inclination is, but I will add one testing question, which I think is important. If an ACSP wished to have its identity associated with its professional, accurate and helpful work and to have that association with the business that is being registered known publicly, would the Companies Act, as amended, facilitate that? Would it be allowed to do that? Would it be allowed to publicise who it is or are we forcing anonymity on everyone who does this work and not allowing their name to be associated with sterling, world-class work?

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that point. I am intrigued about whether or not that is true. That is why I think it is important that we look into this in detail to ensure that it can be done properly and that we are making legislation that improves accountability and transparency. Without repeating myself, I hope noble Lords feel comfortable that we have made a significant and serious commitment to see what we can do about this point, and I will take a personal interest in this.

I will move on to the point about standard industrial classification, which has just been raised, and Amendment 50A, put forward so well by the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell. I greatly thank him for his amendment and, again, agree with the intention to increase transparency.

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I hope that my noble friend the Minister can look favourably on the merits of using the Bill to do this now. The only small change in the wording of Amendment 106E compared with Amendment 65 is that I am specifying a minimum fee of £100 and asking the Government to consider raising it in line with inflation—not necessarily mandating that that should be done but considering it annually. I am not wedded to any of the wording but I feel that putting this into the Bill now has significant merits. I hope that my noble friend will agree to consider it carefully.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, a packet of 20 Lambert & Butler or Marlboro cigarettes costs £12.65. That is how out of proportion the fee for setting up a limited company has become. It may well be that government taxation and inflation have influenced the price of cigarettes and that it does not reflect their real value, but that is the reality of the world that we live in. If you have £13 in your pocket, you can buy a pack of cigarettes or you can float a limited company.

This has got totally out of proportion. Businesses that have this limited liability have become a driver of our economy but a significant proportion of them have become a serious problem for our country. Not only has our international reputation been trashed by the people who abuse this, with us being trusted less as a centre of probity and good practice, but, if we accept the Government’s apparently accepted assessment of what this costs us annually, they are taking £350 billion out the economy on a regular basis. They are doing that in a series of economic activities in which they take the money but we count it as GDP. That is utterly ridiculous. Then, after the money goes out of the country—quite often as cryptocurrency—it comes back in and we count it as inward investment. They have distorted the reality of the economy of our country in a significant way and they have stolen significant amounts of money that could have been put to other purposes.

I support these amendments because these two issues need to be addressed. First, the process of setting up a limited company needs to force people to think more about what they are doing. It needs a quality about it and part of that has to be in the fee. The people whom we charge now with not only collecting this data but being the gatekeeper and inhibitor of crime—that is what we are asking Companies House to do—have to be resourced. That resource should come substantially from those people who wish to exercise the privilege of having limited liability in their companies because it is in their interests to have the ability to do that and not be characterised with the rest of these cheats and robbers. The way in which they conduct their business is being protected, and money is not being taken from them by fraud and the other activities that are manifestly going on. It is in their interest for this system to work properly; they should pay the appropriate fee so that that work can be done.

More importantly—this is the real issue that this amendment addresses—the measure of the ambition that we have, that Parliament has and that the Government say they have to interdict all this behaviour has an enormous prize at the end of it: £350 billion. This was described to me as relatively low-hanging fruit in my recent correspondence with one of your Lordships. We know how to interdict this behaviour, keep this money in our country and stop it from being stolen from our common resources in this way.

The measure of the Government’s priority for this is that it should have figured in Rishi Sunak’s five priorities. This is such an extraordinary series of things to be happening in our community, with such a dreadful effect. Economic crime—fraud is part of it, as 41% of crime against a person in our country now is fraud—is having an effect on almost every family in our country. If we do not know people in our families who have been defrauded, or if we have not been defrauded ourselves, we will live in constant fear of it. Every text we open or every email we get that we do not recognise immediately causes our heart to beat a bit faster, as it may have infected our electronic communications. We are all affected by this. There is a great delivery to be had for the people of this country, the way in which we trust each other and the way we live, but there is also a lot of money at the end of this.

A significant proportion of the money going out comes from the Government’s own coffers and we are not protecting ourselves against its loss. If they have an alternative way to convince us that this can be done differently than is proposed in these amendments, now is the time to tell the House of Lords. Like the House of Commons, the House of Lords is going to coalesce around these sorts of amendments—the difference being that support for them here will mean your Lordships’ House winning the day when it comes to counting the votes. We all collectively want the Government to bring these types of amendments and solutions to the House for approval, in their own words.

Can the Minister explain to us how we are going to move out of being a country that basically sells to people, for the price of a pack of cigarettes, this ability to do something that a lot of people are using for crime? Where is the money going to come from to ensure that the work that is needed is done in regulation, enforcement and prosecution but mostly by inhibiting this from happening in the first place? I am much less interested in prosecuting people who have done this than I am in stopping them doing it. We can stop them and give ourselves a resilience but we are going to have to invest a significant amount of money; the Government should see that money as a priority because the prize at the end of it is so significant. If there is no alternative, then this is the best way to do it and I would support and vote for it, but the Government have it in their gift to tell us how they will do it otherwise, if they can convince us that we can trust them to put their money where their mouth is.

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

My Lords, I have added my name in support of Amendments 69 to 71. I agree with what my noble friend Lady Altmann said in support of her own amendment and very largely agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, said from the Opposition Front Bench—supported, it is fair to say, by his noble friend, the noble Lord, Lord Browne.

These amendments are important not for what they say intrinsically but for what they say about us—as a Parliament and as people who make policy then implement it. The cigarette packet analogy is very telling: it is ridiculous that it costs the same to buy a packet of cigarettes as it does to register a company. That clearly has to change and I do not think that the Government believe that £12.50, or whatever the cost is, is the right price to register a company. There may well have to be a sliding scale, reflecting small and larger companies, but suffice to say that the current level of fees is ridiculous and the current level of fines could well be ridiculous.

Having signed these amendments, however, I do not want to be seen as a false friend. I take the point that putting on the face of primary legislation the fee, or the fine, makes lifting it higher annually—or whatever the relevant time is—much more difficult because the primary legislation will have to be amended. You might get a Bill like this—okay, we have had two in a year; we are all smiling but these two years are very unusual—but the next time we get to amend the level of the fine in primary legislation could be a long way off. I suggest that we use these amendments to prompt the Government to set realistic fees and fines, and to place those in a form of legislation that can be amended readily and quickly. That would presumably be under regulations, which is not an unusual state of affairs. The purpose behind these amendments, as I say, is to provoke or promote the Government into thinking about the levels of these fines and fees.

In relation to the question of hypothecation or whether the fines should go into the Consolidated Fund, again, I am going to demonstrate that I am a false friend to some extent because hypothecating fines or fees can sometimes create another form of sclerosis. It also creates an inability to be flexible in how one spends public money.

Our arguments in support of these amendments demonstrate what this Committee thinks—here, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Browne: if this proposal was put to a vote on Report, it would win. I do not think that the Government need have any false hope about that; I suspect it would win. Of course, it would be overturned back in the other place but we would be saying to the Government, “We want real and meaningful action”. This Committee leaves it to the Government to come up with a scheme that avoids having a vote and meets the real nature of the problem that we face.

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[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

Has any thought been given to the possibility—I know that the Government like this sort of structure—of having an independent fee review body that looks at all this and makes recommendations? The Government could still set the fee but there would be an independent group of experts looking at the objectives that we have set ourselves. Is it too late to put some provision like that into this piece of legislation? I know that the Government like reviews.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, for suggesting the creation of another authority but, in this instance, I would be reluctant to do that. As I said, I have noted his comments very carefully, and I will be happy to have further discussions with noble Lords around this issue. I am sure it will be a matter of debate, but the important point is that I do not believe that we should be setting minimum costs by legislation. It would be completely impractical and would remove the flexibility and purpose.

I now come to the economic crime fund and economic crime enforcement agencies Amendments 69 and 71 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, and the economic crime fund Amendment 106E tabled by my noble friend Lady Altmann, which are very relevant. As we have discussed—and I take this view personally—we can have as many rules and regulations as we want, but if they are not enforced properly, they will have no value. That is why when noble Lords come to me with new ideas—there is an ever-bubbling font of new ideas—for new regulations, strictures and penalties that could be imposed upon businesses to reduce economic crime, I sometimes push back. I say that it is not necessarily about introducing new regulations and rules but about making sure we have the resources, focus and capabilities successfully to prosecute existing crimes.

That is at the core of my next comment: the Government are committed to ensuring that law enforcement agencies have the funding they need. The combination of the 2021 spending review settlement and private sector contributions through the new economic crime levy will provide funding of £400 million over the spending review period. The levy applies to the AML-regulated sector and will fund new or uplifted activity to tackle money laundering, starting from 2023-24. I believe that the levy is expected, or targeted, to raise £100 million. I am not sure whether that figure is confirmed; I will come back to noble Lords if it is wildly inaccurate.

In addition to this, a proportion of assets recovered under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 are already reinvested in economic crime capability. Under the asset recovery incentivisation scheme mentioned already by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, and some other noble Lords, receipts that are paid into the Home Office are split 50:50 between central government and operational partners, based on their relative contribution to delivering receipts.

Proceeds from fines issued by Companies House are placed into the Consolidated Fund, which is used for financing the expenditure of government departments on important public services. The proposed amendments would see the incorporation fees, all fees paid under regulations made under Section 1063 of the Companies Act and all penalties paid under regulations made under Section 1132A of that Act being surrendered into an economic crime fund. This would be contrary to the fundamental principle that the fees are paid for the benefit of incorporated status and would fall foul of long-established Treasury rules preventing fees being used to fund activities that may be completely unconnected. I am happy to be corrected, but I do not believe that this is pushing back against the concept of hypothecation. The point is simply that these are fees to be paid for a service, and it would not be appropriate for them to be directed to another function.

This would also encompass almost the entirety of Companies House’s income, leaving it with no resources, and it would require funding from elsewhere, primarily from the taxpayer, so going completely against what many noble Lords, this Government and I want, which is to use the fees to pay for the functioning of Companies House. The fees would then go into a fund, so we would have to pay for Companies House on top of that. I am sure that is quite clear. The Government do not believe it is appropriate to place the burden of funding Companies House on the taxpayer, and this would be contrary to the fundamental principle that the fees are paid for the benefit of incorporated status.

I would like to attend now to some comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Browne.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency

Lord Browne of Ladyton Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 27th April 2023 Grand Committee

That is enough from me. I apologise for going on so long, but I promise that I shall remain for the remainder of the sitting of the Committee, unlike on Tuesday. I urge my noble friend the Minister to take a deep breath and to accept that if he agrees with me, my noble friends Lady Morgan, Lord Sandhurst and Lord Agnew, the noble Lord, Lord Fox, and, no doubt, other noble and noble and learned Lords, he will never find a friendlier group of collaborators. I urge him—perhaps while nobody is looking—to grasp this opportunity and move corporate criminal law somewhere close to the 20th century, even if he will not come as far as the 21st.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I associate myself entirely with the remarks of appreciation and thanks made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, to the Minister and his team for their engagement on all aspects on the Bill—to the extent that I have been engaged in them, but I think I speak for everyone when I say that.

To summarise in a blunter way what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, was saying, I suspect that if we in this Committee voted on this issue, and indeed on all the amendments tabled by members of the Committee, the Minister would find himself in a minority of two. My sense—to the degree to which I can be relied upon to have the ear of Parliament—is that, when this comes back on Report, it will not be difficult to persuade a substantial majority in your Lordships’ House to vote for these. There is also a strong echo of support coming from the other House; anyone who has read the Commons Report stage from 25 January will know that there is overwhelming support there for this trend, if not the specifics.

I intend to restrict my remarks to the two halves of the loaf described by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, but I support all the other amendments. I do not need to go through them, although I may have something to say before I sit down about the amendments from the Select Committee that I had the pleasure to serve on, since for personal reasons I may need to leave the Committee earlier than I would have hoped.

As we have heard, the new clauses are welcome in so far as they impose a duty to prevent fraud in large organisations. Helpfully, the main amendment and consequential amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Fox, would invert the Government’s approach whereby we can amend to remove the applicability to large organisations. I have to say that the existence of that provision suggests that the Government think they may need to do that. Instead, the amendments would extend the Government’s failure to prevent offences to all relevant organisations regardless of size.

If the Bill is to fashion the real cultural change that has been promised, that approach is surely better calculated to achieve a sweeping change, analogous to that achieved by the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act, which has been referred to in debates. It is not just about imposing these measures on the companies and associates themselves, but ensuring that this becomes part of public, business and, in particular, corporate consciousness, empowering individuals to identify and report crime—particularly fraud and money laundering, which are the main crimes being committed in the economic crime environment—they feel is taking place.

In support of the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Fox, about the vulnerability of SMEs to crime, I shall refer to a couple of headline statistics that could be useful for context. For example, the US-based Association of Certified Fraud Examiners found that private companies and small businesses have the most fraud simply because of the lack of internal controls, which we see as a regulatory burden, but they do not need to be as they would help these businesses to protect themselves from fraud. Fraud was proportionally significantly greater in these businesses than it was in larger companies.

On 25 January, on the second day of Report in the other place, John Penrose’s argument in his intervention on Stephen Kinnock is an interesting one, in that it fundamentally challenges the Government’s assumption about a duty to prevent imposing an unreasonable and unbearable burden upon small businesses. It suggests instead that a simple duty to prevent could not only reduce the burden of criminality but

“sweep away a raft of largely ineffective and deeply costly measures, and replace them with something that is simpler”

and “more effective” for small businesses.

In a statement on 11 April, Spotlight on Corruption stated:

“The carve out for SMEs is … desperately short-sighted and entirely unnecessary … By including this exemption, the government has deprived the corporate sector as a whole of the full benefit of this offence. SMEs are known to be at a high risk of fraud, and encouraging them to have appropriate anti-fraud procedures would not only help prevent fraud, but also better protect them from becoming victims of fraud”.


As Robert Buckland reminded the Minister on 25 January, the 2015 Conservative manifesto

“rightly committed the Government to make it illegal for companies to fail to put in place measures to prevent economic crime”.—[Official Report, Commons, Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Public Bill Committee, 25/1/23; cols. 1057-61.]

In what respect does that commitment not find an echo in calls to ensure that this failure to prevent is in operation throughout the economy, rather than just in companies that sit above what appears to be an arbitrarily drawn threshold?

The Government’s attempt to draw a false dichotomy between corporates and smaller companies fails to appreciate that all these sectors are inextricably linked. There is no Chinese wall between corporates and small businesses. In terms of fraud and money laundering, money is directed to where its origins and purpose will get the smallest amount of scrutiny. It would be extremely easy for companies to restructure themselves to ensure that they could limbo under the bar of meeting the test of being a large organisation and ensure that they avoid being subject to this duty to prevent. There is certainly no shortage of people out there who seem willing to enable them to restructure their businesses in ways that achieve this objective, directing them to where the origins and purposes will receive the smallest amount of scrutiny.

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I thank my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier for tabling Amendment 100, which would reform the mechanism for corporate attribution—the “identification doctrine”.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

I apologise to the Minister; I should have intervened slightly earlier. If the Minister has data on the likely cost of the extension of the provisions in the Government’s amendment to small and medium-sized enterprises, I think that all Members of the Committee would like to see it, including how it could be disaggregated. To make a proportionate decision, surely it would need to be accompanied by the Government’s estimate of the loss to small and medium-sized enterprises caused by fraud. Given the scale of fraud in this country, it must be significant. Personally, I would like to have the opportunity to compare what this is likely to cost against what fraud already costs small and medium-sized enterprises.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a good point. As I have said, I will endeavour to find some more figures and share them more broadly. I do not know whether it will take into account the precise analysis that the noble Lord seeks, but the fraud strategy is imminent and it would be strange to publish a strategy without saying what the strategy is there to address. Once again, I am piling all my faith into the fraud strategy—possibly misplaced faith, who knows?

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Lord Browne of Ladyton Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 9th May 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I add my thanks to everyone who has put so much effort and work into this issue over a significant amount of time. I thank everyone for their contributions, which have given powerful testimony of those who have suffered. We should note the fact that so many noble Lords in this Committee alone personally know people to whom this has happened.

I confirm that we support this amendment and I look forward to the Minister’s comments about the request for creating an office for whistleblowers. As has been said throughout the debate, it is clear that facilitating whistleblowing would go a significant way to tackling economic crime, whether fraud, money laundering or other crimes. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, in particular for her comments about the importance of the earliest possible notice of wrong- doing, which is a key point in this discussion.

I emphasise that the stakes remain too high for an informed insider wanting to blow the whistle. This amendment would be a good starting point. I am not convinced that it will solve all the problems, but we need to see some progress. Too many people are suffering and we need to recognise those individuals as well as the impact on the businesses involved. As the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, said, the sad truth is that too many people wait until they are leaving a company—either moving on to another or, in the case she mentioned, retiring—before finding the courage to stand up.

I understand there is going to be a review, but surely we have an opportunity now, with this Bill, to make some bold change. I thank the charity, Protect, for its briefing under Speak Up, Stop Harm, which has some very important information that we should all consider. To reference the debate that took place in the Commons, there was strong cross-party support, encouraging support and advice for whistleblowers. I am concerned that the government line remains that taking these important steps is too expensive. I really cannot understand that line of argument. Surely, we should regard this as an investment and not a cost. Tom Tugendhat MP promised more discussion on these matters as part of the debate. Can the Minister inform us where this has got to?

We support the creation of an office to give encouragement and support making reports. We want an ability to provide advice and, most particularly, to act on evidence of detriment to whistleblowers where we know that it occurs. The point in the amendment about making an annual report to Parliament is also important. One area on which I think it would be possible to move is to bring forward the requirement for all organisations to have a proper policy in place as a vital and effective route to preventing crime, which would mean that the courts could use evidence of this as good practice.

As I am sure all noble Lords have seen, 65% of callers to Protect’s confidential advice line say that they have suffered for speaking out, which of course is in direct contravention to the Public Interest Disclosure Act and, therefore, as amended, the Employment Rights Act. This is a very serious issue, which should be picked up and dealt with immediately.

On furlough payments, 41% of clients who contacted the advice line who suspected that fraud was taking place were ignored; 90% attempted to raise concerns with their employer before going to the helpline but, unfortunately, many small organisations still have nowhere to go. It is a matter of how these changes could support businesses that want to do the right thing but do not have the wherewithal to do it.

I look forward to the Minister’s responses to all the points that have been made today. Let us treat this issue with the seriousness that it deserves, as it is an important way in which we can help those who have received information that they want to act on. In the spirit of the Bill itself, it is a vital and effective route to preventing crime.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

I support the amendment and commend the noble Baroness for tabling it, as well as those who support it. I do not intend to go over anything that anybody else has said about whistleblowing, but I agree with them. I am not in any sense an expert on whistleblowing, but I am speaking because I think I have anticipated in two areas what the Government’s response will be. First, I think that we are all conscious that a review of whistleblowing has been instructed. However, I cannot find in any commentary about it or any of the announcements from the Government whether the possibility of that review recommending the setting up of an office of whistleblower is part of its remit. It does not seem to be—and that brings me to the point that I really want to make.

Some of us contributed to the debate on the Private Member’s Bill on the protection of whistleblowing in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer on 2 December—I think its formal title is the Protection for Whistleblowing Bill—and because Part 2 of that Bill related to the setting up of an office of the whistle- blower, we have had the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, telling us what the Government’s position is. I expect to hear that the Government’s position is that the existing framework provides 80 prescribed persons to whom people can legally blow whistles, many of whom are regulators, that the very diversity of that framework does not need this overarching body because it would not be able to deal with the complexity underneath it, and that should a new body have such a function,

“it would require significant staffing resources, with diverse expertise across a range of sectors, to enable it to carry out these functions effectively”.—[Official Report, 2/12/22; col. 2044.]

In other words, it is not necessary.

That can be said, and that framework exists, but to test whether that is right, I ask the Minister in response to tell us just how effective the framework is. What do these existing regulators and others actually do? What does the data show of their effectiveness? How attractive are they to whistleblowers? How many successful processes have there been—how much criminal or other wrong activity has been uncovered by them, say in the last five years or so—and just how effective have those processes been?

I spoke in that debate on 2 December and I spent quite a bit of time looking for that data, but it does not seem to exist anywhere—there does not seem to be any data that shows how successful the existing framework is. Does the Minister have the data on the number of cases that pass through the current regulatory system, as well as the data on the impact of that? If that data shows what I suspect it does—but only from anecdotal evidence because there is no empirical evidence—then this process is ripe for complete restructuring.

For all the reasons shared with your Lordships’ Committee by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, so competently and in such an informed way, the obvious restructuring is to follow the success of the United States of America, where the creation of an office for whistleblowing has dramatically improved the effectiveness of whistleblowing to an extraordinary degree.

It seems that the fundamental problem—this is part of the problem we have got ourselves into with economic crime—is that the infrastructure we have in any part, either to prevent, detect or prosecute it, is just not of the scale of what is going on in our country. We need something that concentrates some very special resources in a way that makes whistleblowers comfortable to deal with them, protected by the state when they blow the whistle, and where the information they give is properly acted on so that it has the results that we need. I hope that when, as I expect, the Minister pushes back on this amendment, he will be able to tell us where that is in the existing framework. If it is not there, we need an office for the whistleblower, and when we get it is just a question of time.

This is an opportunity we have now. Most of us in your Lordships’ Committee have experience of just how difficult it is to get opportunities for legislation that makes this sort of fundamental change. We should grasp this one when we have it. If we have to build upon it beyond economic crime later on, so be it, but we should do it now.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, I first draw attention to my interest as set out in the register, as a non-executive chairman of Not Another Bill Limited. Secondly, I want to thank noble Lords for their warm welcome to the hot seat, which is much appreciated.

I am pleased to be able to represent the Department for Business and Trade in my new role as Minister of State. I thank all noble Lords for their inputs into the debates so far and express my pleasure at being able to speak today on this amendment. I also thank my ministerial colleague and noble friend Lord Johnson of Lainston, who is indeed in Hong Kong, for his support in preparation for today’s debate.

Moving on to the Bill itself, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for raising the important matter of whistleblowing. As a former co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Whistleblowing, she has continuously highlighted the important role that whistleblowing plays in shining a light on wrongdoing. The Government have a significant interest in ensuring that our whistleblowing framework is robust. An effective whistleblowing framework is a vital part of the UK’s ability to tackle corruption and all forms of economic crime and illicit finance. As these acts are by their very nature often covert, those working for an organisation can be a key source of intelligence for authorities.

My concern with this amendment, however, is two-fold. First, these reforms risk duplicating elements of the existing framework, leading to a confused landscape, and potentially at considerable cost. As I understand it, this position was explained by my noble friend, Lord Callanan, during Second Reading of the noble Baroness’s Protection for Whistleblowing Bill in December last year. So I will not go into detail here but, just to recap, the Government are concerned about how such an office would interact with the role of regulators. As has been mentioned, a new body could also come at a considerable cost, as it would require significant staffing resources, with diverse expertise across sectors, to enable it to carry out these functions effectively.

Secondly, it would be premature to make legislative change ahead of the review of the whistleblowing framework, which everybody has mentioned. The review, which the Government launched on 27 March this year, will examine the effectiveness of the whistleblowing framework in meeting its intended objectives—that is, to enable workers to come forward to speak up about wrongdoing and to protect those who do so against detriment and dismissal.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Kramer and Lady Altmann, asked whether the review will consider the merits of establishing an office for the whistleblower. The review will consider evidence related to the effectiveness of the whistleblowing framework in meeting its intended objectives. This is to enable workers to come forward to speak up about wrongdoing, and to protect those who do so against detriment and dismissal. As the right reverend Prelate explained, proper protection is needed against terrible misery and personal risk.

The review will consider a number of topics that are central to the whistleblowing framework. These include: how workers are defined for whistleblowing protections; the availability of information and guidance for whistleblowing purposes; and how employers and prescribed persons respond to whistleblowing disclosures, including best practice. The research for the review will conclude in autumn 2023. The full terms of reference for the review are published on GOV.UK.

There have been a number of very specific questions. I think that I have written down all those on data so, if it is all right with noble Lords, I shall respond swiftly in writing to some of the specific questions that were asked. There is no doubt that there is a lot of data behind this amendment; it is important that proper answers are provided.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for giving way. On 2 December, I asked the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, whether he could provide the data on the performance of regulators and other prescribed persons in relation to whistleblowing, specifically asking the same question that I asked the Minister. He did not answer it then and he has not written to me. Does this data exist? I suspect that it does not.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I do not know whether it exists; if it does, I shall find out and let the noble Lord know. I think it must exist, but we will have to see. The other important issue was the expense of going to a tribunal, which is a very serious issue. My understanding is that the review will certainly take that into consideration.

Not long after taking office, my ministerial colleague the parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Kevin Hollinrake MP, committed during the Public Bill Committee in the other place to get this review moving. We have followed up on this commitment and continued to deliver on whistleblowing policy. On 17 October last year, the Government laid before Parliament the most recent update to the prescribed persons order. This came into force in December and is a significant improvement to the framework, adding six new bodies and all Members of the Scottish Parliament to the list of bodies and individuals that a worker can blow the whistle to. I hope that demonstrates to noble Lords that the Government are very serious about whistle- blowing.

I welcome the continued constructive engagement on this topic, and I know that Minister Hollinrake has valued the discussions to date with parliamentarians and organisations representing whistleblowers in preparing for this review. However, this amendment could create a confused landscape for whistleblowing, potentially at considerable cost. It would also pre-empt the ongoing review of the existing framework. I therefore respectfully ask the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, to withdraw it.

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[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, in this part of our debates on the Bill because I recently corresponded with him about many of these issues. It was prompted by the publication on 30 March 2023 of the National Audit Office’s report, Tackling Fraud and Corruption Against Government. He helpfully drew my attention to some aspects of that and persuaded me that there is an opportunity in this Bill to take advantage of a degree of cross-party co-operation and leadership in an area of public policy, the like of which I have never seen in 25 years in the other place and your Lordships’ House.

The degree of informed cross-party leadership in the House of Commons is unique, in my experience. I do not think that I have ever seen so many well-informed people who have spent years working in this area leading together, in an utterly non-partisan way, the revision and improvement of a piece of legislation. It has been an utter pleasure to be able to contribute a small amount to your Lordships’ Committee and to listen to genuine experts in this Committee talking both about their experience and how it can be brought to bear to improve the Bill. I have no doubt that the Minister welcomes the fact that there is such support for the Government’s ambition.

However, my sense is that the government machinery resists being helped too much in relation to this legislation. I was an enthusiastic amateur in relation to the first part of the Bill because I have no expertise in the workings of the Companies Act. There were a number of people in the Committee who were able to inform me about how the process worked. The whole point of those debates on Companies House was to change culture; the whole point of this legislation seems to me to be to change culture in all aspects and areas that it touches in relation to economic crime. The culture that we want is one of transparency and accountability, which is why it is called the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill. It seems utterly ridiculous that the visa report is in the hands of the Home Secretary, who now has responsibility for a large part of the Government’s policy given the changes in government structure that took place not so long ago. She is holding on to an important report—a review of how we got into the position where this well-intentioned visa process became a machinery of deep corruption in our society at high levels because the money for corrupt purposes was moving quite significantly up the ladder of those who make decisions into the policy world.

What justification can there be, when the Home Office substantially has responsibility for a large part of this Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill, which is designed fundamentally to change our approach, for one of the principal Ministers in charge of this area of law to be sitting on this report without explanation? There is no explanation. We are entitled to conclude that there must be something that she does not want the light of transparency to reveal. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, has already suggested what that could be—it probably is that.

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While the Government are not able to support this amendment, the noble Lord should be commended for raising this important issue. The Government remain committed to holding the perpetrators of corruption to account. Ownership of international treaties and jurisprudence sits with the FCDO, and I know that my ministerial colleagues there have noted the interest in this amendment and would welcome further exchanges with the noble Lord to consider the options available to accelerate international action.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

I am conscious that I did not contribute to the debate on this, but is it too late to get the word “anti-corruption” into the communique for the pending G7, which takes place between 17 and 23 May in Hiroshima? That word is nowhere in the Foreign Ministers’ communique on 19 April after they met, I think, in Japan. The communique covers almost everything in which one can imagine we would be interested in involving those countries that share our values, but that is not there.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord will not be surprised to know that I do not know, but I will ask.

The Government will endeavour to update your Lordships’ House on their plans for progressing international action on corruption in due course. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and the noble Lord, Lord Oates, on his behalf are reassured by the Government’s commitment to combatting corruption. We look forward to further discussions on this subject and to setting out our plans in further detail at an appropriate time. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Turning to Amendment 106A, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, the Government care deeply about tackling tax evasion and avoidance. My ministerial colleagues continue to work closely with the various sub-committees that sit within the UN’s Economic and Social Council. However, standard-setting powers on tax currently sit within the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s inclusive framework and global forum, and the UK believes that this is the mechanism best placed to deliver consensus-based reforms aimed at tax avoidance and evasion.

The inclusive framework and the global forum have wide and diverse memberships of more than 140 and 160 countries respectively. Furthermore, the OECD holds strong technical expertise in matters of international tax avoidance and evasion, and a potential UN convention on global tax evasion as envisaged by this amendment would duplicate and be likely to hinder the OECD’s work. This would delay the co-ordinated global response and effort to address tax evasion and avoidance and combat harmful tax practices, as well as creating divergence in international tax standards.

Having said that, the UK will engage constructively with the upcoming report by the UN Secretary-General. We want to find ways to improve international co-operation, as I have said, but to do that we want to ensure that this captures the full range of existing mechanisms for international tax co-operation and considers creatively how they could be improved better to meet developing countries’ needs. We have submitted evidence to the UN Secretary-General demonstrating these points.

Having said all that, obviously I ask the noble Baroness not to move her amendment.