Football Governance Bill

Tracey Crouch Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 23rd April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Dame Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)]

I rise, unsurprisingly, in support of the Bill. I am pleased to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, because I know you take a keen interest in Doncaster Rovers, and although you are not able to speak in the Chamber on these matters, you have been a fine advocate for its views during this process. May I congratulate the hon. Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) not just on completing the marathon on Sunday, but for standing up and sitting down without an audible “oof”? Two days after, that is pretty commendable.

I thank the ministerial team and the long-suffering officials at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport who have worked exceptionally hard on bringing forward this Bill. This detailed piece of legislation has been well worked through to ensure that it moves smoothly through Parliament and is in place as soon as possible. I also pay tribute to those who have campaigned on this issue for many years. I may have chaired the fan-led review, but the truth is that a blueprint for reform was created long before. I went down a Hansard rabbit hole, thanks to James in the Official Report team, and read some fabulous references from days past, including a glorious contribution from the much-missed Alan Keen in 1997 that highlighted:

“The Premier League and the Football Association govern themselves with no appeal beyond their confines.”—[Official Report, 27 June 1997; Vol. 296, c. 1094.]

Given last week’s furore over FA cup replays, that still seems apt.

There are too many to list, but the likes of Richard Caborn, Andy Burnham, my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins), Kevin Miles and his team at the Football Supporters Association, David Bernstein, Gary Neville, Henry Winter and Peter Crouch—no relation—have been vocal campaigners for change. The truth is that for many years, Sports Ministers, including me, have stood at the Dispatch Box with crisis after football crisis and pleaded with the authorities, “Reform yourselves, or Parliament will”, and here we finally find ourselves.

The Secretary of State has already set out the context of this Bill. It is always important to remember that the Premier League asked the Government to intervene when six clubs sought to join the European super league. The pleas led to the then Prime Minister Boris Johnson promising a “legislative bomb”. That came on the back of high-profile financial problems in the football pyramid, including the demise of Bury, which my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (James Daly) has spoken about many times in this Chamber. The fan-led review was the outcome of the request from the Premier League and the regulatory failings to prevent clubs from disappearing from our football landscape and the subsequent massacre of the community ecosystem that supported them. The review was a deep dive into the issues, and I shall remain forever grateful to those who participated in it.

In preparation for this speech, I re-read some of the submissions to the review. It was interesting to read in its submission that the Premier League thought that there could be a use for an institution with “step-in powers” and “a capacity to intervene” should it

“manifestly have failed to uphold rules”.

The submission went on to say that

“such a body could also set the general principles required for standards for governance and transparency, including for financial regulation; strengthen the independent operation of the OADT; support the principles of standards for owners’ responsibilities as custodians; and protect decision making over key issues for fans”.

The same paragraph continued:

“Provided it operated in a proportionate way that respected the benefits of permitted well-run clubs and leagues to be nimble in their decision making and encouraged to innovate and take properly assessed risks, then this could make an important and positive contribution to maintaining and enhancing what is the world’s most dynamic and attractive football environment”.

This Bill is all those things, shaped brilliantly to reflect the words of the Premier League itself about what a great regulator could look like. It leaves many of us scratching our heads as to why the Premier League has spent the past few weeks lobbying to stop the Bill progressing.

I will say a few things about some of the specific clauses in the Bill. Clause 3 sets out to define an “ultimate owner” of a club. That is important, as part of the challenge in the past has been that that has not been as clear as it should. Clauses 5 to 8 set out the objectives and principles of regulation, making clear that the regulator should be nimble in its approach and can oblige good governance and real-time interventions, but is not obliged to guarantee zero failures. However, the Bill makes it clear that the regulator will be time-efficient, consistent and transparent. That is a departure, some might argue, from the current regulation.

Clauses 12 and 13 are key to how the regulator will evolve. Good guidance will be essential to its success, as we have heard in contributions and interventions. I already foresee strong guidance required on the role of fan advisory boards and on fan engagement, such as that set out in schedules 4 and 5, along with certain technical challenges, such as pitch ownership if that is different from club ownership. Timely but thought-through guidance done in consultation with key parties will be much needed if the regulator is to hit the ground running. Equally important is the need not to overload on guidance and create regulation by proxy. The whole point of the regulator is to improve governance and to be open and transparent, yet agile in relation to change.

Clause 26, and in particular subsections (7) and (8), which I refer to in my notes as the Martin Samuel measures—Martin is a journalist, but he would regularly ask me whether the honesty and integrity test would prevent Boris Johnson from running a football club—clarify that the test is defined by crimes under the Serious Crime Act 2015. Offences covered by fixed penalty notices are therefore not relevant, which will be a relief to those involved in football who might have been issued with a speeding fine or other such fine.

Clause 37(2) relates to the regulator having regard to foreign and trade policy objectives. That has become a slight distraction from the argument on the independence of the regulator. With that in mind, I suggest an amendment to the clause to change the word “must” to “may”. It is boringly technical to the outside world, but incredibly important if we are to impress on it the value of the regulator’s independence.

Part 5 of the Bill is an important aspect for the domestic fan base, covering prohibited competitions and the protection of club heritage, including ground disposal. For the fans, it is the soul of the Bill. When we published the review, I explained that its order was crafted like a good album. We put all the chapters about governance first, before we got to the redistribution of revenue. The way I see it is that the Premier League gives a substantial amount of money to the wider pyramid, but without the necessary structures of good governance. It is akin to having the heating on with the windows open. Putting in proper regulatory structures should give the Premier League and its clubs confidence that its money is going to good owners with proper business plans in place and real-time financial monitoring that gives significant protection. The Bill follows that same mindset. We get the structure right, then we distribute the finances, and that is what part 6 of the Bill does.

On part 6, I have some key points to make. First, there is an argument to be had on whether the regulator should have the ability in principle to trigger the backstop. I am sympathetic to that, but it needs to be done carefully. Secondly, although colleagues have focused on parachute payments, clause 55 is drafted so broadly that both domestic and international broadcast revenue could be deemed “relevant revenue” and available for distribution. That is not the case at the moment. I am slightly surprised that the Premier League has not included that in its list of things that it wants to amend. It is important that we seek to clarify precisely what is considered “relevant revenue” at the earliest opportunity. Thirdly, it is essential that we define, either on the face of the Bill or at some point in parliamentary proceedings, the definition of “material change”. What might seem material to the EFL might not seem material to the Premier League.

Fourthly, the powers of the regulator will extend to the national league, as presumably will the redistribution of funding. However, I note that the National League has said that it opposes the regulator. It is in the gift of the Secretary of State to define the reach of the regulator, so she could, if she felt it necessary, remove the national league from the Bill, and in so doing, remove it from the redistribution of finances and instead allow it to continue its existing arrangement via the Football Association.

It is right that we put these powers in the Bill, but it is disappointing that, two years on from the review, the football authorities have not done a deal on distribution. The solid recommendations in the review would have moved this debate much further forward than it is now, but they were ignored, so here we are, with the regulator requiring powers to intervene that were promised over and over again.

Clause 94 means that all fines received are paid into the consolidated fund. Although it may not be popular with the Chancellor, I propose that, in order to ensure that the regulator is deemed independent of Government, that clause be amended so that moneys raised above and beyond the regulator’s costs are diverted directly back into grassroots football, which I am sure would be much appreciated as we look to continue the growth in participation and investment in facilities in the run-up to and long after the Euros in 2028.

I do not wish to test the tolerance of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker, so I shall wind up. I love football, and although the Premier League continues to cast me and others who support the Bill as the enemies of success, investment, growth and international competitiveness, I would argue that quite the opposite is true. The premier league is one of our finest exports, and nothing in my review or in the Bill changes that. Instead, the Bill protects the pyramid from the vulnerabilities and fragilities that have challenged football over the years. It protects football clubs from owners who forget that they are merely custodians of something greater than a trinket. It serves to protect fans, clubs and entire communities from losing their heart and soul. For those reasons, I hope that the whole of Parliament will come together to support the Bill and get it into statute as quickly as possible.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

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[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

It is a huge privilege to speak on the long-awaited Football Governance Bill. Not only is this a matter of great importance to sports fans across the UK and beyond; it is also a personal passion and I commend everybody that has been involved in getting the Bill this far. Locally in Berkshire we have a proud football pedigree. Reading FC is the only league club in Berkshire. It has a proud history and has done brilliantly this season to survive in league one against all the odds. In my constituency, Bracknell Town and Sandhurst Town have also enjoyed strong seasons, and across the border in Hampshire, Aldershot Town are back on the map after their most exciting season for years. Well done to Tommy Widdrington and his players. I was at the Dagenham game on Saturday, which was brilliant. It was a pity that Dagenham did not quite make the national league play-offs, but next season will be even better.

As the father of two young sons who play to a decent level, I know that better regulation of the game is essential to their future, and to the future of all our clubs. This is the beautiful game, and it does need better regulation to ensure that football always comes home. We know what the Bill does: it seeks to establish an independent football regulator, and includes provisions that seek

“to protect and promote the sustainability of English football”

for the benefit of fans and local communities. That is very important, but I say to the Minister that regulation must be light-touch. Given the pre-eminence of football in the UK, we must not throw the baby out with the bathwater by inadvertently making the Premier League, the English Football League or the national league less attractive to owners, potential investors, the media or the fans. As we know, the Premier League is also the world's leading football brand, and is worth billions to the UK. If it ain’t broke, please don’t fix it.

Regulation, then, must be just enough. It must be balanced to protect clubs and fans from rogue owners, but without jeopardising the game. Recent history is littered with examples where it has gone badly wrong: Southend United, Wigan, Portsmouth, Bury, Colchester, Sheffield Wednesday, Hull, Derby and several others, but most recently and perhaps most spectacularly of all, Reading. For a fan such as me, the last few years have been galling. We have seen freefall from the premier league, 18 points of deductions, huge fines, players not being paid, bills not being settled and fans in despair, and I feel their pain. Let me put this on the record: I personally commend every single Reading fan. They have been magnificent, and they have supported the club through thick and thin. I should also mention the brilliant Sell Before We Dai group, which has been so instrumental in this regard.

Does lobbying work? Absolutely yes, and I give credit to Members as well—my right hon. Friends the Members for Reading West (Sir Alok Sharma) and for Ashford (Damian Green), my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Hertfordshire (Sir Oliver Heald) and, in particular, the hon. Member for Reading East (Matt Rodda), with whom I have worked very closely in connection with Reading football club. Members have leant in, in respect of Reading and many other clubs. Pressure has been brought to bear on owners, and a cross-party approach really does work: politics is always at its best when MPs work together. As for the question of a pilot for the new regulator, I cannot think of a better example than Reading. The new regulator must cut his or her teeth on that particular club—and the Bill itself must have teeth, because a regulator without powers is of no use whatsoever. Let me say to the Minister that I look forward to seeing the terms of reference for the initial incumbent.

The aim of the Bill is to put fans back at the heart of the game. It is about running clubs and putting them back on their feet, and about heritage and future direction. As we have heard, it is also about sustainability, and about ensuring that we lay the foundations for clubs as we go forward in English football. It must apply across the whole pyramid, and not just to the top five leagues. It is right that new owners and directors will face stronger tests to stop clubs falling into the wrong hands, and will face the possibility of being removed and struck off from owning football clubs if they are found to be unsuitable—and much more; but the devil will be in the detail.

As for Reading football club, I have learnt several lessons this year. First, fans do matter and fan power does work. Fans have a voice, and they have used their voice this year and before in relation to Reading FC. Secondly, Reading Borough Council’s decision to list the Select Car Leasing stadium as an asset of community value under the Localism Act 2011 was a masterstroke. Dai Yongge is unable to sell the stadium, and rightly so. Lastly, I give full credit to Wokingham Borough Council for a little deed for the Bearwood Park training centre. If a club cannot legally sell its assets to another club, that club lives on. Once again, these measures have effectively stopped further asset stripping by Dai Yongge, and will lead to the successful future of Reading FC. Reading is now moving in the right direction. Bills are being paid for March, April and May; new owners are believed to be interested in the club, and we could yet survive. I thank everyone at Reading FC, and all the fans, for making this happen.

So what is not in the Bill? First, punitive action for owners who fail the test. I say to the Minister that they need not just to be banned from football but to be banned, full stop. They need to be banned from being directors, or banned by HMRC. The Bill does not address welfare provision for players. What are clubs doing to soften the blow for players who get rejected or suffer mental health issues? The Bill affects the top five leagues only; it needs to affect national leagues south, north and below because they are all worthy. The women’s game has been mentioned, but I feel strongly that the Bill needs to go further on the women’s game in due course.

Lastly, the FA cup decision on replays being stopped from round one is outrageous. It is nothing less than cultural vandalism of the world’s greatest cup competition. If the larger clubs have to play replays with the huge resources they have got, so what? I have no sympathy whatsoever. Having watched so many FA cup exploits over the years, not least at Sutton United and Woking, I do not buy the FA’s logic. These cup ties are the stuff of legends. Magic does exist in sports. Admittedly, no Government can regulate this, but if FA officials are watching, I urge them to rethink that appalling decision.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

There is a larger point about FA cup replays. Those lucrative replays are once in a lifetime opportunities, but the fact that there are clubs that are relying on those lucrative replays demonstrates why we have a problem with finances in the football pyramid. Although my hon. Friend says that the Government cannot regulate on the matter, the Bill gives the Secretary of State some amazing powers to bring the FA cup into conversations. Does my hon. Friend agree that while it is not something that I particularly favour, it is something that can be done?

[James Sunderland]

I agree wholeheartedly. Anything that we can do in terms of the regulation is worth pursuing. I was at the Aldershot-West Brom game earlier this year, which was an incredible day out. That could have been a third round replay. The money raised from such occasions is extraordinary. While clubs cannot depend upon that lifeline, it is a fantastic bonus when it happens. Certainly, it helped Aldershot massively with its finances this year.

To conclude, I strongly support the Bill. I commend the DCMS, the Minister, the authors of the Bill and my fantastic hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Dame Tracey Crouch). The Bill is long overdue, but it is here now. I am also reassured that the Conservative Government have done this. It will make a huge difference to all clubs and fans—let’s bring it on.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Stuart Andrew)]

I thank all Members for their thoughtful and wide-ranging contributions, and I am grateful for learning about the first black professional footballer, Arthur Wharton, from my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Peter Gibson). I am pleased to hear the broad support for what the Government are proposing, and I am grateful for it. I am also grateful for the continued engagement with colleagues as we have prepared for the Bill.

My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State rightly pointed out the successes of English football, and the contribution it makes to our economy and the pride of our nation, but it is important to remember why we are here today. My very first meeting when I was appointed as Minister was with fans’ groups. I heard at first hand their experiences of when it all goes horribly wrong—even to the point of having to boycott their own club for five years, in one instance. The fans felt unheard. We know that clubs are more than just football clubs. When they go into administration and are run down, the fans are obviously in despair, but that also has a significant impact on the wider community because they are more than football clubs; they are community assets.

That is why we committed to the fan-led review. Like everyone else, I want to put on record my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Dame Tracey Crouch) and to the people who helped her, including Kevin Miles from the Football Supporters’ Association. The review was the foundation for the White Paper, and now we have the Bill today. I thank all those who engaged with us for all they have done: the FA, the Premier League, the EFL, the National League, the FSA and the Select Committee. I also want to put my particular thanks on the record to the officials in the Department. I cannot tell the House how many hours they have put in; they have been first rate and I thank them a great deal.

I want to focus, in the short time I have left, on some of the points that were raised. Many issues were raised and I will try to get through as many of them as I can, but I am happy to engage with colleagues afterwards if need be. When constructing the Bill, we have been careful to ensure that it is carefully drafted, considered and proportionate, and that it provides an advocacy-first approach; and that there is focus on the clubs where it is needed, and we make sure it is proportionate to their place in the pyramid.

A number of Members raised the owners and directors test. Too many clubs have been brought to the brink with unsuitable owners taking over, stripping them of assets and refusing to adequately fund them. That is why we are bringing in strong statutory tests to help prevent unsuitable owners at the point of entry, before they can do harm to clubs. Prospective individuals will be prohibited from becoming club owners unless the regulator has determined beforehand that they are suitable. They must pass a fitness test, which means: they have the requisite honesty and integrity; are financially sound; have passed the source of wealth test to ensure that their wealth is not connected to illicit finance; and have a plan and the resources to run the club.

Even once an owner is in place at a club, the regulator will still be able to make sure that they continue to be suitable. If it has grounds for concern about their suitability, it can test them on their fitness and their source of wealth. If it finds them unsuitable, they will have to sell the club. To prevent further harm being done to the club during the sale process, the regulator will have the powers to limit the owner’s involvement in the club, and if the unsuitable owner ultimately refuses to sell the club, the regulator will have the powers to step in and force a sale as a last resort. Strengthened tests and robust powers to remove unsuitable owners will mean that fans have the suitable owners that they deserve.

Hon. Members asked about what would happen if a club’s owners were forced to divest. Let me be clear: we hope that such a circumstance will be incredibly rare. The regulator’s objective is to promote clubs’ financial sustainability, and it will introduce tests on governance and financial oversight, which will greatly reduce the likelihood of financial distress and make football more resilient in the long term. For example, we will ensure that the regulator is able to look at a liquidity buffer, which could provide the club with time to seek a new owner, and the regulator will have the power to test an incumbent owner where it has grounds for concern about their suitability.

Almost every Member mentioned the backstop, and I repeat that we want football to come up with a deal itself; it is the best option, and this delay serves no one. We need to remember that we are talking about a commercial arrangement—businesses giving businesses money—which is why we believe it is best that football does it, but we recognise that there is no deal at the moment. That is precisely why we have put provisions in the Bill for a backstop—something to fall back on—so that they can consider the relevant revenues.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

Does my right hon. Friend agree with my interpretation of clause 55, which is that international broadcast income is included in the relevant revenue for redistribution? That is currently not the case for solidarity payments. If it is the case, has this issue come up in his discussions with the Premier League?

[Stuart Andrew]

My hon. Friend raises an interesting point. I have had dozens of meetings with the Premier League, but as far as I can recall, I do not think that it has raised carving out international broadcast revenue in those discussions, which have always revolved around the net media revenues and the aggregate revenue received by both the Premier League and the EFL; she raises a very interesting point.

Some say that the regulator should be able to trigger the backstop right at the outset. Frankly, that would just be a frontstop, and it may hinder a deal being struck by football itself, but the Bill provides that if there is no deal because one has not been offered or one side cannot sign it because it is not a good deal, that side can ask the regulator to trigger the backstop.

Members have mentioned parachute payments, and I am always happy to meet colleagues to discuss and look at that matter further, particularly in Committee. I am also happy to organise a briefing, if that would be helpful, because it is quite a complex issue. Parachute payments play an important role in the sustainability of the system by softening the financial blow of relegation, and removing them could have adverse effects. Look at Bradford City: when they were relegated from the premier league in 2001, there were no parachute payments, and the following season they went into administration.

Football Governance Bill (First sitting)

Tracey Crouch Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast. Before we start hearing from the witnesses, do any Members wish to make a declaration of interest in connection with this Bill?

[Dame Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)]

I want to declare that I was chair of the fan-led review that led to this Bill.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

I sit on the management committee of the Spirit of Shankly football union for Liverpool football club.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Byrne]

Q Should the regulator have any ability to determine ticket prices to protect the unique heritage of football?

Kieran Maguire: As a football fan, I would say yes. Looking at it purely from a business perspective, if you are selling 100% of your tickets at the current price, economics would say that they should be allowed to charge what they want.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

Q Given your collective expertise, how long would it take you to write an assessment of football—let us call it a state of game report? Given your insight over time into the finances of football, what would be a meaningful timeframe of review for that assessment?

Dr Philippou: That is a very good question. I mean, how long is a piece of string? It depends on what you are looking at. We know what the issues are, so it depends on how targeted what you are asking us to look at is. The issues are pretty well known, so it is about how deep a dive you require—you can tell I worked in forensic accounting, with my “It depends!” But it would take months. It is not something that can be done quickly. It would require proper review to get it right, because if you are basing something on the information in a report, one needs sufficient time and access to be able to provide that information.

Kieran Maguire: The information we have put out in the reports to date has been on the basis of the financial reports published at Companies House. Therefore, we are reliant on clubs producing them on a timely basis and with a level of detail that we can make meaningful conclusions about. I used to do investigations into companies, and it is always nice to have more inside information or management information about budgets and so on, because that allows you to look forwards as well as in the rear view mirror. I think it would be a time-consuming exercise, but it is not an insurmountable one.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We must move on, Clive.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

Q The panel will appreciate that the UK has nuclear weapons and there is coding for what happens in the event of a catastrophic diplomatic failure. All that coding is well thought through but the outcome is never 100% certain, and he who pulls the trigger is not always going to be the winner. Do you appreciate that part 6 of the Bill is the nuclear equivalent for football? Do you also appreciate that, really, part 6 should never be triggered, and the only way it will be triggered is if there continues to be a catastrophic failure, between the parties on the panel, to come to a deal? Do you appreciate that part 6 has been written into the Bill because, frankly, you guys have not come to a deal?

Mark Ives: We are talking about the backstop?

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

That is part 6, yes.

Mark Ives: Yes, I am aware.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

Q Mark, I will come to you for your views but—with no disrespect—I would like to hear what Richard and Rick say.

Richard Masters: I had not likened it to nuclear armageddon but it is an important issue. We have made attempts to come to a new deal but it has not worked yet. As I have said repeatedly, football solutions are the right way forward and the best solutions. I do not wish to be in a situation where the backstop power is being activated by any party, so I agree with you in that respect.

Rick Parry: We take a rather different view inasmuch as we do not see it as being armageddon or catastrophic. Football has manifestly failed and it will because the market forces are such that it is not an equal negotiation. We have very little negotiating power. We cannot threaten to leave and attach ourselves to the Bundesliga or La Liga, so we are basically stuck.

We think that if the regulator has clearly defined objectives, in terms of systemic sustainability, then as the fan-led review said, as the “One Year On” report said, as the White Paper said, and as the Government response said, it is the regulator that should have targeted powers of intervention. Intervention implies doing something positive. At the moment, the regulator is not actually allowed to do anything at all because it is reliant on the two leagues—the bodies that it is regulating—to step in. We believe the regulator should have those powers. The fan-led review is an enormously important and extremely helpful piece of work—an independent, objective, transparent study that has never been done before. The review will have a view on parachute payments and we are not, by the way, saying there should be no parachutes; we are discussing their level and the ability to fix them independently. We believe that, to make the Bill work, in the event that the fan-led review highlights problems, the regulator should be able to institute the process. We do not think it is armageddon. We do not think it is nuclear. We think it is logical.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

Q Do you think it is a game of Russian roulette, though, Rick?

Rick Parry: No, we do not see it that way because so much hinges on the fan-led review—on the objective study. If the EFL were to trigger the backstop—and we hope we would not need to, or we never would—we would actually see that the EFL position would be something very similar to the fan-led review. It is the fan-led review that will inform the regulator as to whether it is able to meet its strategic objectives. It is not for the leagues to decide whether the regulator can meet its objectives; it is for the regulator to decide. If we were pushing forward a solution, I think the likelihood is it would be extremely close to what the fan-led review recommended. Why would it not be? It is not Russian roulette at all.

Richard Masters: Mark should definitely speak, but the only thing I would say is that you can observe the difference in incentives that now exists because of the regulatory power—the backstop power. It is the third person in this discussion. One of the issues that I would like to highlight to the Committee is that the backstop power creates different incentives because there is a third person who will adjudicate in the end. Since 2007, we have been able to come to agreements bilaterally, away from the gaze of the public eye, and do increasingly generous deals and share our success. We are happy to continue in that vein. I would like to point that out.

Mark Ives: There is an additional dimension for me, as far as the backstop is concerned. The backstop is really important to our clubs. We are at the base of the system, as I said earlier. We only get money from the Premier League. The solidarity payments we get from the Premier League are extremely helpful. However, there is a gap between our clubs and the EFL clubs. We could come to an agreement with the Premier League over our next round of solidarity payments. It is extremely helpful and, as it looks on the surface, it is very good. We could accept that. However, then there could be a deal between the Premier League and the EFL that has an impact of widening that gap, and that is not good for the game because the gap is already very wide.

I urge you to look at the difference in the solidarity payments across the game, including ours, and where that difference is. It would seem to be difficult, then, for us to be able to activate the backstop. We hope we never need to do it. However, it is an important aspect of the game to enable us to make sure that that gap does not get wider.

We know where we are; we know where we sit in the pyramid, and we are proud to sit there. However, we cannot afford for that gap to get wider. I would urge the wording of—

[The Chair]

The last question is to Rachel, because I think you are repeating yourself.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We move from the fans’ views to the person who started all this with the fan-led review—Tracey.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

Q Kevin, you have given a very eloquent and passionate explanation about why you would like to see the Bill improved for fans and the general supporter base. You have also made representations about your wider concerns, so I thought you might like the opportunity to explain some of those to the Committee.

Kevin Miles: Clearly, I have been sat listening with a great deal of interest to what has gone before. The organisation has a view on the issue of parachute payments. We think they need to be in scope for consideration. We are also convinced of the need, in extremis if required, for the regulator to be able to trigger their own backstop powers. That is important. I am sure this will come up in discussion later, but I understand that you, Tracey, have tabled an amendment to adjust the wording about taking cognisance of Government foreign policy, and changing that from something that the regulator “must” do to something that the regulator “may” do. That is important because it would underline the independence of the regulator, which I think will be an important issue.

I could talk all day—I know you will not allow me to do so. The Bill is not perfect. There are areas that we would love to see strengthened, but if this Bill goes through entirely unamended, it is a huge step forward from the point of view of football. This is an important process for us. On a lot of what we have been seeking to get football to do itself, which it has failed to do, this Bill provides a solution. It fills a space and provides a regulatory function that has been lacking. Clearly, there are elements that we will continue to engage with Ministers and officials on, particularly the fan engagement stuff.

A lot of what we are talking about here is clarifying and nailing down. I am going to speak bluntly to people who understand this. At the moment, in a parliamentary process, we are aware that we have a little bit of leverage here. I would like to pin down as much of this as we can in the process of drawing this together, rather than just hoping for the best later. I think a lot of Members will share our concerns about the fan engagement. We want to make it meaningful; it must have a lasting impact. We do not want to be coming back to this and looking at the limitations—let’s get it right now. It is in that spirit that we are raising all these issues around fan engagement.

[Robin Millar]

Q It has been wonderful to hear the fans’ voice in what you have said and contributed previously to this whole process in bringing us to where we are. In the previous sessions, it has been quite interesting to hear how the English Football League and the National League, for example, were clearly feeling that it was, in what I think were Rick Parry’s words, an “unequal negotiation”. This Bill strikes me as trying to level the playing field, if you will pardon the pun, between different interest groups. Do you think the Bill gives you, as fans, the leverage to exert more control? I ask that because the Bill focuses heavily on finance. It includes other things such as heritage, but there is more to being a football fan than just the heritage. Do you think it gives you that leverage on those non-financial aspects as well?

Kevin Miles: It takes us a long way in the right direction. I think that if fans have a meaningful voice in every club, and the clubs are the ones who cast the votes in the leagues and their decision-making processes, the fan view should start to filter its way through. Clearly, we are never going to be completely satisfied.

I would also like to say that I am sitting here as the fans’ voice. I speak not just as an individual, but on the basis of the input that we have had from fans’ groups up and down the country. I need to thank my team from the FSA for the work they have done in getting this far. They work in a vary variegated landscape. There are some clubs that are really good at engaging with their fanbase and the local communities, and they deserve the credit for that. There are others where, sadly, it will need some sort of intervention to make sure that they are dragged up to at least the minimum standard. I hope we are in a process now where we can achieve that.

Football Governance Bill (Second sitting)

Tracey Crouch Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Betts]

It will only increase on Saturday!

[Dame Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)]

Q Sharon, your passion is obvious, and I am sure that if the Clerks could craft an amendment to the Bill to have you cloned, we would all support it. Ian, you sort of answered this question, but I will ask it again: there has been a lot of scaremongering about the impact of the Bill and some of the unintended consequences—the duplication and so on—but is there anything in the Bill that you fear? That question is to both of you.

Ian Mather: The thing that I fear is that it does not work in key places. On the parachute payment clause, protecting that does not work. I know that Rick has made the point, but I would endorse it: we are not against the concept of parachute payments if they are right. I do not believe that they are right, but let’s have a state of the game review and find out whether they are right, or whether they are an impediment to fair competition in the football world as we want it. But do not then hamstring the regulator so that it cannot deal with that problem, if indeed it is a problem.

The problems here are few: they are about who can trigger it, the parachute payments and how often you do a review. Those are the key issues. It comes down to the money. The other bits in the Bill, such as those about protecting heritage, are really good. We were looking at introducing a golden share in Cambridge United to give fans protection against things such as stadium moves and so on, but the Bill probably makes those redundant.

Sharon Brittan: Tracey, what you said about unintended consequences is really interesting. I have looked at the situation closely, and I like to look at both sides of the story, so we get a clear, honest picture from the Premier League side and the EFL side. I do not even understand unintended consequences; I cannot work out what he is referring to, unless I am missing something. I can understand the EFL’s argument, which is very clear and concise. From the Premier League’s point of view, I have so far not been presented with anything or read anything that has made me think, “What they are saying actually makes sense.” They have put together a very weak argument —I do not think there is an argument—and have conducted themselves poorly. I do not think they have presented themselves in the right way. They are arrogant. They think they are an island, on their own, sailing off and forgetting that 14 of the clubs in the Premier League have come from the EFL.

On how the pyramid works together, we loaned two players over the last two seasons. Both of them—James Trafford and Conor Bradley—went back to their respective football clubs, and they are absolutely flying in the Premier League and talking about their time at Bolton Wanderers. I could bring players to the table who will say to you that they have never worked in such a culture. People need to work in the right culture to bring out the best in them. There is enough stress in the world today.

On unintended consequences, I would love to sit down with Richard and for him to explain it to me because I do not understand it. They are just words, and there is no substance or arguments behind the words. I have not yet come across a cohesive argument to which I can say, “Actually, that’s a fair point.” I am not going to talk about the numbers—we all know the numbers. In my opinion, that this goes back to greed, envy, jealousy and thinking about me, myself and I. I cannot comprehend how someone can view this through that lens when we are a football pyramid, and what we do as custodians affects this country and beyond. We should be cherishing what we have here.

[Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab)]

Q You have spoken so eloquently. I am looking at this from the perspective of my local club Reading, which has had very serious problems with the current owner. The previous owner was absolutely wonderful in creating a positive culture. My question is: how do we find more owners with the right intentions and motivation, and help them to play a bigger role?

Sharon Brittan: I completely agree with that. Even in the five years that I have been involved, I have seen better owners coming into the game because the EFL has changed the rules. You cannot having a bankrupt owning a football club, and you cannot have somebody who has been struck off; the rules are much more stringent. I do not want to talk about the numbers, and I do not like talking about them, but the problem we have is that in five years we have put a huge amount of money into the football club. Any sensible businessperson probably would not do that, because they would look at it and say that it does not make any financial sense.

Ian Mather: In direct answer to your question, I would say that it is the numbers. If an owner can look at a football club and think, “Broadly, if I run that club properly and well, with the income I get from running a football club and the sustainability payments from the Premier League, I can roughly break even. I may want to be ambitious and build a new stadium here, or improve the training ground, but broadly I can balance the books.” If you cannot balance the books, or worse, the books get more unbalanced each year, you are reducing the pool of people who can buy into being a football owner.

Sharon Brittan: I agree with Ian.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rachel Hopkins]

Q When you are collating those opinions to make important decisions such as that, how do you ensure that it is as accessible to fans as possible, and that there is a genuine emphasis on their involvement?

David Newton: As I say, the most recent one or two that I can think of were some time ago and were probably quite well publicised. The consideration of those decisions would have been accompanied by all the relevant submissions made by the various stakeholders and considered in the round, and the weight given to those views.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

Q I have two quick questions. Are you content that the Bill preserves the FA’s position as the governing body for football in England, and are you content with your role as an official observer on the board? Secondly, in previous correspondence, the FA has been keen to ensure that there were no unintended consequences for women’s football. Are you satisfied that that is the case?

David Newton: On the first point, as I outlined at the start of this session, the FA is responsible for the whole of English football, ranging from grassroots right the way up to the international team. The Bill is concentrated, as we know, on a small—but none the less very important—subset of that. Our role as an observer on the board is extremely helpful to that. I am confident that with the work we do—whether that is in grassroots, on and off-field regulation, disciplinary matters, the national teams and that sort of thing—our position as the governing body of English football remains.

Regarding the women’s game, you are absolutely right. We raised the potential concern of the unintended consequences of investment in the women’s game being affected by their co-dependency in some situations on the men’s game, and with funding being removed or reduced as a result of decisions by the regulator. It is important that the regulator, in exercising its powers, does so in a proportionate and reasonable fashion and bears in mind that co-dependency, where it exists.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephanie Peacock]

Q Do you think there is a risk that clubs make asset transfers from the women’s game to the men’s game in order to become financially sustainable?

Jane Purdon: One of the classic models at the moment, as you have heard, is that the women’s team sits within the same legal entity as the men’s team, and there are pros and cons to that. The pros are obviously that the club has the brand, the IP and the infrastructure. The cons are that it can make the women’s team very vulnerable to what happens in the men’s team. I saw that with my own club, Sunderland, which 20 years ago was so ahead of the game, but the men’s team fell down two divisions. I understand that it is a cost centre and tough decisions must be made, even if they are not the decisions that I would make.

I have actually posited the question before of what happens when women’s football begins to make money and becomes profitable. What are we going to do with that profit, and how much will go back into the men’s game and how much stays in the women’s game? I think that would be a great question for football to debate.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

Q Good to see you, Jane. You are obviously involved in Women in Football, which is not always about women’s football. Do you think clubs are making enough progress in ensuring that there are more women on their boards and that there is greater diversity in the boardroom? What do you think the regulator should or could be involved in in the future?

Jane Purdon: There are some statistics and research showing that, I think, 10% of current Premier League directors are women. That research was done earlier this season, but the key thing is that it has not shifted since somebody last looked at it in 2019. The answer, with a very broad brush, is that it would appear not. I have to say that there are some clubs doing fantastic work, some of whom have given evidence today. If you want a great exemplar, take a look at Brentford football club, but as a whole, I do not think the industry is moving fast enough. We need to look at not just boards but executive committees—the lead executive decision-making body within the club.

We speak to our members a lot about this. We have 9,500 members, 80% of whom are women—we do welcome men into our membership—and we talk to them regularly about how they are feeling. We are getting a very mixed picture. We are told that 89% of them feel optimistic about the future of football, but at the same time, again, getting into 80% say that they have experienced sexism in their football careers. A minority of them feel that they are supported to get to the highest path. I would say that things are changing but not quickly enough.

To the second part of your question about what the regulator could do, we have a proposal for a code of governance practice. What concerns us at Women in Football is that both on the face of the legislation and through discussions we have had with the Government in our lobbying activity leading up to this point, there is an indication that it will not include any provisions about diversity. Having co-written the code for sports governance in 2016—under your maestro-ship, Tracey, if I may say so—and having seen how that really shifted the dial, I am really concerned about this. I think it is a poor vision of corporate governance if you do not address equality and diversity. You are not actually writing something about governance. You are writing something else.

To really shift the dial on this, you need three things. You need to make the business case and win hearts and minds. People need to understand and not be frightened, and realise that there are really sound business reasons for doing this. You need to give them support, but you do need to have a bit of a lever—whether that is a funding consequence or a “comply or explain” consequence and the transparency that comes from that in the case of the UK corporate governance code. That is one thing we would like more assurance on and express reference to in the legislation.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

Q Yes, the world of sport did not fall apart by having more women on boards. Going back to the game, when Charlton were relegated, one of the first things they did was ditch their women’s team. That is not unique; other clubs have done exactly the same. Should the club’s licensing requirements state that clubs have to continue their investment in the women’s game regardless of where they are in the leagues?

Jane Purdon: This is such a tough question, because that money has to come from somewhere, and what do you cut? Do you cut funding to your academy? It is so tough. The real answer is that we have to get women’s football independently standing on its own feet and turning a dollar in its own right.

[Damian Collins]

Q Following on from the previous question, I have asked different witnesses about the corporate governance statement that clubs are required to make. I think you touched on that. Do you think it would be appropriate for clubs to have to consider how they meet their wider obligations as part of that corporate governance statement? I think it would be relevant to the regulator if a club was seeking to meet its financial regulatory standards by trimming back on other things it should be doing.

Jane Purdon: I think transparency is a great thing, as is transparency in sport. If you have ever read the code for sports governance, it kind of flows through that. We said to the sport governing bodies who were not as well resourced as many football clubs, “Tell the world what you are doing. Even tell them when you don’t hit your targets and then explain what you are going to do, because it breeds trust.” Against that, we do need to be proportionate and make sure that we are not asking organisations to report for the sake of reporting, and that there is real value that comes from the onerous work that reporting involves.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Rodda]

Q I will ask a second question about grassroots football. I was thinking about this, because I have two kids who used to play and had regular problems with waterlogged pitches and other issues: how would you describe the state of grassroots pitches and provision across the country?

Robert Sullivan: It is a huge challenge for the game, but we are definitely on an upward trend. For the first time, we have been able properly to map and record, and to improve grass-pitch quality by use of digital data. That has been a big change, because with 30,000 grass pitches in England, it is hard to get out to reach them all, but we can now use technology through phones, so we can assess those pitches remotely and help clubs to improve them, to do the simple things, and give them funding that can address some of the waterlogging situations.

We now have more than 8,000 of what we have rated as good-quality grass pitches. That is a big step forward on where we were five or 10 years ago, but we are perhaps only halfway through that journey. We are going to do everything we can to escalate that number as quickly as we can, and to build many more artificial grass pitches, because of the difference. On a good grass pitch that does not waterlog, we get maybe six hours of play; and on a good artificial pitch, we can get 60 hours of full-on community usage for kids, disability or vulnerable groups, older men who are coming for dementia classes, and whatever it might be. Those artificial grass pitches, which is what we want to invest in, are the game changers that will help us to support that growth in the women and girls’ game and all other parts of grassroots football.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

Q The original fan-led review had a transfer levy recommendation that was proposed to the panel by somebody from the Premier League. The Bill was not necessarily the right place to include that proposal but, presumably, given the fact that it was designed as a policy that would invest in grassroots sports, certainly further down the pyramid, is that something that you would still at some point be interested in seeing?

Niall Couper: Yes is the answer. I think it is something that we need to look at, considering that—in my mind—a lot of it depends on what happens with this Bill. It is important, because it is about redistribution and giving support to a lot of the clubs that are trying to do the right thing in the right way. Again, to go back, it needs to be caveated to make sure that it is ringfenced where possible to support the grassroots pitches.

I talk to clubs like Tonbridge Angels, Maidstone United, Sutton United and so on. Those clubs will talk about wanting to have the 3G pitches and their training pitches in there so that they can be put to community use—those 60 hours a week. That is really what they want, because that is where they see the big growth. That is where your club becomes a community hub. That is where it makes the difference.

For me, the money that you talk about from the transfer levy, if you give it to those sorts of pitches and so on, is where you can make a real fundamental difference. Where it will go, I do not know, Tracey. It is one perhaps that we can talk about once we are post the Bill. It was something that I was really excited about when you proposed it—it really appealed to me. It is something that came a bit from left field, but it is something that we should look at in the months and years ahead.

[Ian Byrne]

Q That is what Tracey proposed for the grassroots. This question is more to you, Robert. You do fantastic work, undoubtedly. Some of the Football Foundation hubs are magnificent—we have got four in Liverpool—but there is an issue around cost, and I am wondering whether that comes under regulation scope, as we go down the line with implementation. In an incident last year, an under-13 team was getting charged £194 an hour to use one of the hubs. That takes away totally the ability to play football. With the huge rise in the popularity of football through the women’s game and given the absolute need for the pitches, as you said, who will regulate the cost to ensure that they are affordable for every single person in the country?

Robert Sullivan: It is a big challenge, Ian. When we fund a site, we will put in terms and conditions on such sites that should provide a check and a challenge on the affordability. So, if that is happening on a site that we have funded, we should pick that conversation up separately, because when we provide a grant, it comes with terms and conditions: we need to see, basically, an income and expenditure plan that has sensible and appropriate pricing policies with it.

If I may go back to pick up on Tracey’s offer—

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

For the money—

Robert Sullivan: For the money. I am agnostic about where the money comes from, but we have a massive challenge, and we need as much as possible going into grassroots facilities.

To make one supplementary point about what Niall said, he alighted on a really interesting example. Sutton had a fantastic 3G pitch that was doing brilliant community things, but when Sutton went into the EFL, it had to pull that pitch up. That is an interesting question, although it is inadvertent. I understand all the competition reasons why that might be the case in the EFL, but Sutton went from having a very sustainable community asset to one that was not when it moved up into the EFL pyramid. That is an issue that I would potentially raise as well.

[The Chair]

As there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witnesses on behalf of the Committee. Thank you very much for coming.

Ordered, That further consideration of the Bill be now adjourned.—(Mike Wood.)