Public Order Bill

Debate between Victoria Atkins and Wendy Chamberlain

Report stage
Tuesday 18th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Wendy Chamberlain]

What I am trying to say is that the existing legislation already deals with those circumstances, and that, given that some of the Bill’s provisions mean that people need not even have done anything to be subject to them, there is a fear that it will prevent them from doing anything at all. I believe that the fact that our police service is grounded in policing by consent—unlike those in other countries whose police forces have evolved from more militaristic origins—is something to be celebrated.

If the police do not need the powers, if all that the Bill does is make it harder for legitimate protest to take place and if it restricts the right of citizens, I would argue that we do not need it at all. We should reflect on the fact that the Minister, in his opening remarks, claimed that the existing legislation was a reason for rejecting new clause 11.

Let me now raise another point, which I have touched on already. It is not about protecting the democratic rights of our citizens, but in many ways it is just as important, because it concerns the real impact on the capacity of the police service. In Committee I tabled a number of amendments, and although I have not tabled them again on Report, this is a key consideration.

When we pass poor legislation, we sometimes see the results in our constituency surgeries, but when it comes to legislation such as this, we will not be dealing with the outcomes directly. I believe that if the Government are confident that the Bill, in its current form, will do what it is intended to do, they should be comfortable with receiving reports from the College of Policing and from police forces about the capability and capacity of those forces to deliver the legislation—and that is before we even think about the huge backlogs in the criminal justice system. It will take some time for people to come before the courts in the context of this Bill.

The proposed new powers will require additional officer training. Sir Peter Fahy, the former chief constable of Greater Manchester Police, gave evidence to the Bill Committee. The simple fact is this:

“If there are not enough police officers trained to properly respond to protests and apply these new laws, that means that more people must be trained—training that costs thousands of pounds and means that officers are potentially in classrooms, not out on the street.”––[Official Report, Public Order Public Bill Committee, 16 June 2022; c. 191]

Chris Noble, the chief constable of Staffordshire Police, estimated that, under the current legislation, it takes an officer two or three weeks per year to keep up with necessary additional public order skills. The offences specified in the Bill will require significantly more training at the outset, at the least, and will mean even more days of actual policing lost at significant cost, with simply abstracts from core policing duties. Once the officers are trained, it is likely that deployment to protests will increase as a result of the Bill’s restrictions. Simply put, people cannot be in two places at once, and resources are limited. According to evidence given to the Committee, the arrest of a protester usually involves six officers. We will run out of police officers before we run out of protesters.

I know where I would rather the police were. I would rather see an officer making sure that the streets were safe for women and girls walking home at night, going after gangs and those working across county lines, stopping the scammers who target our elderly and vulnerable, working on counter-terrorism, and preventing organised crime. I ask colleagues to reflect on what they and their constituents really want when faced with the reality of these choices, which were made even more stark by the Chancellor when he stood at the Dispatch Box yesterday.

Policing by consent is one of the greatest attributes of our country, and it is something that I am passionate about. The Bill undermines that. Although we will support amendments that curb its worst excesses, I will continue to argue that the decision in the other place to remove these clauses when they were part of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 was correct. I cannot support the Bill in its current form.

[Victoria Atkins (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)]

I rise to speak in favour of new clause 11.

In a perfect world, no woman or girl would be raped; no foetus would have life-shortening, agonising conditions or endanger the life of the mother; and every baby born would be yearned for and cherished. But we do not live in a perfect world, and that is why Parliament has settled laws for the regulation of the provision of abortion services. This is what new clause 11 concerns. It is not about the form of those laws, or their details; it is about the provision of those services in day-to-day life.

I had the responsibility for looking after abortion clinic buffer zones from 2017 until I was promoted from the Home Office last year. It was, as my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin) says, an issue with which I grappled, because there is a real balancing skill involved in weighing up not only the concerns of those women seeking medical services and those who support them, but the sincerely held beliefs of those who do not agree with abortion. My right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), who is no longer in his place, has set out some of the history of this, and I was an active part of it, so I really am trying to help the Minister when I try to explain some of the shifting of that balancing operation.

In 2017 Amber Rudd was Home Secretary, and in response to concerns voiced by parliamentarians she commissioned a review into demonstrations and protests outside abortion clinics. We announced the results of that review in, I think, 2018, when my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid) was Home Secretary. At that point I stood at the Dispatch Box and I signed letters to say that we had looked at the number of clinics and weighed up the power of PSPOs. At that point, from memory, one council—maybe two—had applied for a PSPO, and we felt that the balance was in favour of PSPOs being using on a targeted basis for those clinics affected.

The review continued—I genuinely kept this under constant review—thanks to the efforts of my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex and my right hon. Friends the Members for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) and for Basingstoke (Dame Maria Miller), among many others on this side, as well as the hon. Members for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq) and for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy). It is a pleasure to see the hon. Member for Walthamstow in her place today. Indeed, only last summer we looked at this again in the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill. At that point, although the number of clinics affected by demonstrations had increased since the initial review, we felt that in the interest of balancing both sets of interests, PSPOs were the right way to go.

Today, however, five councils have applied for these orders, and happily the imposition of those orders has been upheld by the Court of Appeal as being lawful. We have heard in the course of this debate the concern that the five PSPOs cover five clinics out of some 50 that have been the subject of protests and demonstrations. My right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke made the important point that this is not just about the number of clinics; it is about the number of women who go to the clinics for these services. I think I am right in remembering that she cited the statistic that around half of women who seek these services had attended clinics where there had been protests and demonstrations.

So I find myself in the position of agreeing with new clause 11, not because I like banning things or because I am against the legitimate and sincerely held beliefs of those who cannot support the provision of abortion services, but because I come back to the point about the provision of services to women who need them and the circumstances in which they find themselves as they walk that long and lonely path to the doors of the clinic, hospital or surgery providing those services. I know from speaking to women who have been through these protests that they have made a difficult decision. There may be many factors surrounding the decision, involving their home lives, the circumstances in which the pregnancy came about and the concerns for what might happen if their friends, families or the wider society found out that they had had these operations. These are fundamental healthcare services that we provide, rightly and lawfully, in the 21st century. We must surely enable women to access these services as and when they need them so that they get the right help and advice.

Strategy for Tackling Violence Against Women and Girls

Debate between Victoria Atkins and Wendy Chamberlain

Wednesday 21st July 2021 Commons Chamber

[Victoria Atkins]

I am so grateful to my hon. Friend, who does so much work in her constituency to help women and girls and to tackle these heinous crimes. We very much want, through the strategy, to build on the existing relationships and sex education that is now mandatory in every school. Indeed, only yesterday I visited Uplands Primary School in Sandhurst and learned about Pantosaurus, the dinosaur who wears pants. That is the first lesson that children as young as five and six have at that school to start to understand about personal privacy, safeguarding and what is healthy and what is not. We are determined that such education continues at school, but of course we have to reach beyond school, which is why there are measures in the strategy such as a public communications campaign and reaching out to universities. We want to try to reach the wider public with some of the attitudes that we all find so concerning.

[Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD)]

The strategy published today includes a proposal for a new national policing lead on violence against women and girls, but it does not clarify whether this person will have any meaningful powers to improve police practice. The Minister referred to the fact that this was a recommendation from Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary and fire and rescue services, but will she tell us what relationship she sees the lead having with HMICRFS? For example, will they have input into its inspections? What powers will the lead have to investigate and address problems within police forces where they have not been reaching best practice? Will the lead have a role in reviewing the recording of aggravations of misogyny, as the Government agreed to do earlier this year?

[Victoria Atkins]

As the hon. Lady will know, the inspectorate’s report landed a matter of days, perhaps only a week, ago. We are working through these details, but, as I say, we have absolutely accepted the inspectorate’s recommendation that there should be a national policy lead whose sole focus is eliminating violence against women and girls.

Daniel Morgan: Independent Panel Report

Debate between Victoria Atkins and Wendy Chamberlain

Ways and Means resolution & Programme motion
Monday 24th May 2021 Commons Chamber

[Victoria Atkins]

I thank the hon. Lady for bringing forward the very human aspect of this. I know that we are talking about a report and a review process, but at the heart of this has been the family. In fairness, if one looks at the written ministerial statement issued by the then Home Secretary when the review was announced, one sees that it was made clear that the family must be at the heart of the process. The review has taken eight years, and as my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid), the previous Home Secretary, set out to the hon. Lady, we could not—would not—interfere with the conduct of that review. That is why, in a way, we are in the position we are in. The panel has its report; it has, we have been told, now finalised the report; under the terms, we will receive the report and then publish it. The only caveat is in relation to national security considerations—for which, in fairness, the Home Secretary has responsibility in a whole host of regards. However, that is the only caveat, so the report will be published. We look forward to receiving it from the panel, and I hope it will give answers to the hon. Lady’s constituent and to others.

[Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD)]

It is well established that there were significant failings and delays in investigating both the murder of Daniel Morgan and the subsequent claims of corruption and malpractice. As others have said, this is clearly damaging to the family of Daniel Morgan and also others involved in investigations. They include one of my constituents, who has raised serious allegations about the Metropolitan police’s conduct, about which I have written to the Secretary of State on more than one occasion, and to which, frankly, I have received not hugely helpful responses. Now it seems that the Home Office is willing to delay justice and further erode trust in the police service by preventing the truth of these failings from becoming public. Looking forward, will the Minister explain exactly what action she will commit to on behalf of the Home Office to ensure that future investigations are carried out independently, rigorously and timeously, in order to prevent further injustice?

[Victoria Atkins]

I imagine the chair of the panel will say that her review has been conducted independently, rigorously and timeously. The Home Secretary cannot publish a report until she receives it, and that is the situation we are in. We all want answers. These are incredibly important issues that have been raised during the course of the review. A great deal of time has elapsed since the horrific murder of Mr Morgan, and the report I hope will answer some of the questions that have been posed in relation to that.

Domestic Abuse and Hidden Harms during Lockdown

Debate between Victoria Atkins and Wendy Chamberlain

Thursday 14th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Victoria Atkins]

As I said earlier, I am in constant contact, as are my officials, with people who work in the domestic abuse sector and provide refuges. The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government has provided advance funding ahead of the duty under the Domestic Abuse Bill coming into force—we hope, in April or May. We very much want to keep building this capability so that people have access to the services that the hon. Member set out.

[Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD) [V]]

Research by Women’s Aid has found that covid-19 restrictions and associated socioeconomic strains make leaving abusive relationships more difficult. Its data also indicates that separations are being delayed until digital restrictions are eased, rather than cancelled. Although the funding and support announced today is welcome, given that separation is a known trigger for domestic abuse escalation, what are the Government planning to put in place to anticipate this likely surge in demand?

[Victoria Atkins]

We have been working closely with domestic abuse charities throughout the pandemic to ensure that when a surge happens—as is sadly predicted—the services are there to be able to deal with it. That is why we have committed the extra funding that I outlined earlier in the statement. We are very much looking to the future through the Domestic Abuse Bill and the continued duty on tier 1 local authorities to help people into safe accommodation.

Mental Health Support: Policing

Debate between Victoria Atkins and Wendy Chamberlain

Wednesday 25th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Victoria Atkins)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Greg Smith) on securing this debate on this important subject, but may I go further than that and thank him for bringing his experiences as the proud son of a police officer into the Chamber and indeed thank his father for his 31 years of public service? Those experiences and that service will help, I am sure, to influence and inform the debates that we will have in the future on the vital topic of police safety and wellbeing, particularly with the police covenant galloping towards us, more of which I will speak about in a moment.

I also thank my hon. Friend’s constituent, Sam Smith, who has had the courage to be frank about his personal circumstances and has used those experiences to inform a body of work that he has been able to take to my hon. Friend, and I sincerely thank my hon. Friend for taking this opportunity to put them before the House.

Our brave police officers do an extraordinary job in the most difficult circumstances, keeping us safe day in, day out. The job of a police officer can be very, very tough. Many of them face more danger in a single day than we may see in months, years or indeed a lifetime. We have only to look at the tragic deaths of Thames Valley officer PC Andrew Harper, and Sergeant Matt Ratana of the Met, as examples of where officers have made the ultimate sacrifice. Their extraordinary bravery will not be forgotten.

Our police continue to serve our country courageously. Their commitment to protecting and supporting their communities has shone through in the role that they have played in the response to the pandemic. Across the policing family, those who go to work to keep the country safe are truly the best of us. It is therefore absolutely right that we ensure that they are supported every step of the way.

Of course the work of the police involves dealing with traumatic incidents and helping some of the most vulnerable people in our society. This is not a job that they can leave at the office. Indeed, I would not call it a job; I would call it a vocation. The pressures of the role can leave their mark on a person’s personal and family life as well. As I say, I very much bear in mind the family experiences of a serving officer as well. I know from my portfolio about the effect of working on, for example, a case involving the sexual exploitation and abuse of children; or the impact on an officer arriving at the scene of a domestic homicide; or even, as we have seen in recent weeks, the impact on an officer arriving at a terrorist incident and having to run towards that danger, not knowing what they may face. Those are extraordinary experiences, which leave terrible marks on police officers who have to deal with them.

It is absolutely right that we ensure that the mental health and wellbeing of our police is a priority, which is why this Government have invested £7.5 million in a new national police wellbeing service. The service is available to every officer in England and Wales; policing is devolved in Scotland and Northern Ireland, so they are responsible for their arrangements. The service was built up following two years of development and piloting, and was launched in April 2019. It provides evidence-based guidance, advice, tools and resources that can be accessed by forces, and individual officers and staff. There is an emphasis on prevention and on identifying mental health issues early so that officers and staff can get help before a problem takes hold.

The service offers a wide range of support and guidance, including an outreach service of bespoke wellbeing vans that are being deployed to police stations, providing physical, psychological and financial health checks for officers and staff. It also includes psychological risk management to clarify potential problems and identify suitable interventions such as counselling, further referral, or, in some cases, signposting to information, advice or training. There is also trauma and post-incident management to help officers and staff who have dealt with traumatic incidents, considering how individual officers and people may respond differently.

[Wendy Chamberlain]

As a police officer, I remember paying my monthly subs to the national police treatment centre in Auchterarder and the one in Harrogate as well. I would be interested to know the Minister’s thoughts on the work of those centres, and how they complement the covenant that she is describing.

[Victoria Atkins]

I am about to come to the covenant, but I am just setting out the wellbeing service. It has been created very much with the police to ensure that we address the issues that they face, but we do not for a moment pretend that we have completed the job. We are conscious that this is a journey of progress and we want to do more. In summary, the service is designed to ensure that support is available for police before, during and after a traumatic incident, but we want to go even further to ensure that our police get the support and protection they need. A crucial strand of that is the police covenant, which my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham has mentioned. We are working at pace to introduce the covenant in legislation, and are committed to ensuring that it has a meaningful impact on those working within or retired from policing roles, whether paid or as a volunteer.

The covenant marks an important moment for the country to recognise the policing family’s huge contribution to our society. We expect to establish a robust governance structure in the coming months to drive progress, and policing partners have already been involved in these discussions. The covenant will be enshrined in law, and the Home Secretary will have a duty to report annually on progress. This legislation will be introduced in Parliament later this Session. Our focus will be on health and wellbeing, physical protection and support for families, and we are in no doubt that we must focus on mental health support, building on the work already done by the national police wellbeing service.

To support that, we must all ensure that occupational health standards are embedded consistently within forces, which is a point that my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham has made. The national police wellbeing service has been working hard to drive that, but we have to make sure that forces have the right people, who make the right investments and ensure the highest quality standards in this area, and we intend for that to be a key priority under the remit of the police covenant. All of that work provides a great opportunity for us to make a difference to the lives of those working in policing and their families, and we will continue to work closely with policing partners to ensure that the change makes a real difference to police officers and families.

As I have said, our police make enormous sacrifices to protect us in hugely challenging circumstances, and they deserve our respect and our support, so it is utterly shameful to see that some individuals think it is acceptable to attack them. That can not only cause physical injuries, but serious psychological impacts. We have been completely clear that we will not stand for the police enduring violence and abuse while doing their critical work.

We are pleased to see that the review into officer and staff safety conducted by the National Police Chiefs’ Council has included as one of its recommendations that chief constables should implement the seven-point plan developed by Hampshire constabulary. It sets out what officers and staff should expect from their force if they have been a victim of an assault. It is vital that, should these awful incidents happen, police officers and staff are provided with the right care to help prevent a lasting impact on their health and wellbeing. We are also clear that those convicted of such assaults should face the full force of law, which is why we have announced our intention to legislate to double the maximum penalty for assaults on emergency workers from 12 months to two years. We will continue to work with the Ministry of Justice to ensure that assaults on police officers and firefighters are handled with appropriate severity across the criminal justice system.

In conclusion, our police are among the most selfless and courageous members of our society. They run towards danger to protect the public. They put their lives on the line every day. They perform their duties with skill and professionalism, all in the name of keeping our communities safe. In recognition of all that they do, it is our responsibility to make sure they get every possible support, and I hope I have been able to demonstrate to my hon. Friend and to colleagues across the House how seriously the Government take our responsibility to support our police, and the steps that we intend to take to do even more.

Question put and agreed to.