Autumn Statement
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Lord Deighton
On the effectiveness of the coalition partnership, I launched the national infrastructure plan yesterday with my right honourable friend Danny Alexander, and I can say that the harmony in the Treasury could not be stronger. My noble friend is correct to say that the marriage tax allowance question is way beyond my pay grade. On the G8, I can confirm that the initiatives outlined by the Prime Minister, where we have taken global leadership to address issues of tax information exchange and publicising beneficial ownership, continued to be followed through very effectively, with us setting an example.
On the national infrastructure plan, it is clear to me that infrastructure is a very important driver of growth, and the bigger proportion of public spending we can devote to it, the healthier the long-term outcome. The measure, therefore, that my honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has put in place to keep the proportion of capital expenditure to national income at a constant level is absolutely to be welcomed as a protection in that respect.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, these are time-limited questions, so the briefer individual Lords can be in making their contributions, the more Members of your Lordships’ House will be able to participate.
The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, whenever a bishop speaks on economics I must emphasise that we preface it with St Paul’s statement: “I speak as a fool”. I fundamentally support the Government’s strategy of getting the deficit down. My question is about the cap and how that is going to operate. Somewhere in the Statement it says that 30% of tax is now collected from 1% of taxpayers. That is a signal of how disparities of wealth have grown in our society. It really behoves us to protect the weakest. My worry is that I see a sort of American scenario of a cap being introduced and benefits not being paid because the cap is there. How will this work, when social security benefits can rise and fall with events which nobody can control? It worries me that introducing another cap of an absolute sort without reference to other realities could end up almost undergirding the underclass, which I am afraid is a developing feature of our society. Can the Minister say a bit more on how this cap is going to work?
Taxation: Rental Income
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Lord Campbell-Savours
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to ensure that taxation is paid on rental income on property owned by persons from overseas.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, the Government believe that non-resident landlords should pay tax as appropriate, and HMRC operates a withholding scheme to ensure compliance. Tenants and letting agents are required to withhold and pay HMRC basic rate tax. Landlords whose UK tax affairs are up to date may apply not to have tax withheld and be automatically entered into self-assessment. Non-resident landlords in self-assessment are subject to HMRC’s usual rigorous compliance checks.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)
My Lords, that only applies where a landlord uses an agent—I listened very carefully to the Minister’s response. How is it possible to quantify the scale of evasion on rental income without a means of establishing who owns what, what rents are paid, and to whom those rents are paid? Is there not a real need to establish a local authority-based national register of all domestic and overseas-based landlord rented-out property—a register that is accessible by HMRC? Is it not true that there is vast evasion in this area?
Lord Newby
It is not true that the scheme just covers letting agents. As I said, there are two other categories of people who should pay tax in this case: one, in the case of tenants, if their non-resident landlord wishes to go that way; and the other for the non-resident landlord to register for self-assessment. Perhaps I may give the noble Lord and the House some sense of the scale of the income generated from this scheme. In 2011-12, companies that held residential property in the UK on which tax was paid paid a total of some £375 million.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)
My Lords, is there not scope for using the deduction-at-source method against rents? It seems to be at least as effective as any other likely way of getting money from people who are overseas.
Lord Newby
My Lords, that is basically how this scheme operates. A letting agent has to take some 20% of the rent and pay it over to HMRC for the non-resident landlord.
Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)
My Lords, is the noble Lord able to confirm what I have been told—and I do not know whether this is correct—that in France, if you are a non-resident owner of residential property, you are taxed on the rentable value of that property whether or not you have let it? Does he know whether that is the case; and if it is, does he think that it is worth considering introducing it here?
Lord Newby
My Lords, I do not know whether that is the case. I think that I might take advice from the noble Lord, Lord Lawson of Blaby.
Baroness Maddock (LD)
My Lords, I agree very much with what the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, said in his opening comments. There is a lack of transparency around who owns rental properties in this country. I do not know what the Government will do about that. If we want to improve the quality and standard of our rented properties, particularly the energy efficiency, it is vital that we know who owns the properties.
Lord Newby
My Lords, as the noble Lord mentioned and the noble Baroness raised again, this is an extremely important and live issue, which I will raise again with my colleagues in the DCLG.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, is the Minister, a member of the Liberal Democrat Party, in favour of a mansion tax, which would certainly go a long way to dealing with this in terms of transparency of who owns property? He should be a little careful if he denies the validity of that, because the Chancellor has an awkward habit at present of listening to what the Labour Front-Bench says one day and doing something similar to it the next.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I am sure that the whole House knows that the Liberal Democrats are in favour of a mansion tax. I remind the House that, in the recent Budget, the Government introduced an annual tax on high-value dwellings—so-called enveloped dwellings —owned by companies, which will generate from £15,000 a year for properties worth between £2 million and £5 million to £140,000 a year for properties worth more than £20 million.
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
My Lords, what advice is given to our local authorities to ensure that, when housing benefit is paid, the recipient landlord pays UK income tax?
Lord Newby
I do not know the strict answer to that question, but HMRC makes strong efforts to bring home to everybody who should be paying tax that they should be doing that, which is why the Government have put in almost an extra £1 billion a year towards tackling tax avoidance and evasion.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)
My Lords, would my noble friend the Minister contemplate the fact that, in many London boroughs, 70% and more of the housing being purchased is purchased by foreign buyers? Many of them have poor credentials as to their abidance by law in their own states, let alone laws here. Might we not be getting near the time when we need to consider limiting the extent to which foreign buyers can dominate the housing market in London?
Lord Newby
My Lords, there is a very disparate housing market in London. At the bottom end of the market, the vast bulk of houses are purchased domestically. At the very top end, the vast bulk of houses are purchased by foreign buyers, particularly from Russia, eastern Europe and the Far East. One key thing that we are very keen to try to achieve is a greater degree of housebuilding in London and elsewhere. Only by building a lot more houses will it be possible to satisfy the demands of a growing population.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)
My Lords, why has the Minister not undertaken to investigate the value of a register? Surely, it would help the Government, HMRC and taxpayers were a register to be established.
Lord Newby
I thought that I had said that I would take that matter up with colleagues in the DCLG.
Business of the House
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Lord Newby
That the debate on the motion in the name of Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury set down for today shall be limited to three hours and that in the name of Lord Paddick to two hours.
Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill
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Lord Newby
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, the Government are committed to bringing payment systems under formal economic regulation to address deeply rooted failures in the UK’s payments market. In Committee, the Government tabled amendments to establish the new Payment Systems Regulator. The Government are now introducing a small number of further provisions and making amendments to some of the clauses previously tabled to ensure that the regulator is able to perform its functions effectively and that the right procedures apply to powers contained in the Bill.
First, these amendments will introduce provisions modelled on measures in the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 which prohibit the regulator and those working for or on behalf of it from disclosing confidential information without the consent of the information owner. The prohibition will be enforced by a new criminal offence. However, further provisions will permit confidential information to be disclosed to certain prescribed persons in specific circumstances, including the provision to the regulator of certain information held by the Bank of England. This will be an important element of the Payment Systems Regulator’s regulatory regime. Without a prohibition on the disclosure of confidential information, people may be dissuaded from providing to the regulator important information which would assist it in the discharge of its regulatory functions.
The Government are bringing forward a number of other amendments which mirror provisions that already exist for the FCA under the Financial Services and Markets Act. The FCA will be able to collect levies for the purpose of maintaining adequate reserves for the regulator, which will help it to meet any contingencies. Another amendment will require that the regulator uses a sum equal to its enforcement costs for the benefit of its regulated population by reducing their levy the following year. A further amendment will ensure that the FCA does not have to produce a cost-benefit analysis when drawing up fee-levying rules to govern the collection of fees to meet the costs of the Payment Systems Regulator.
The other amendments tabled today will ensure that the right procedural requirements apply in respect of certain powers in the regulator clauses. The regulator will have a power to direct participants to take or not take specified action, and amendments are tabled to expand the concept of a “general” direction that applies to more than one person. The consequence will be that more directions fall within the category to which consultation requirements apply. Another amendment will require the Treasury to publish its decisions to designate payment systems to bring them within the regulator’s scope. The amendments also make some technical drafting changes to assist the reader of the legislation, as well as some consequential amendments to other legislation to include references to the regulator—for example, to ensure that the Freedom of Information Act applies to information held by it.
Overall, this set of provisions will contribute to the creation of a robust and well functioning regulatory regime for payment systems that can deliver on the Government’s objectives. I commend these government amendments to the House.
There is also an amendment in this group in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. In Committee, the Government tabled amendments which included a provision for the regulator to order banks to give indirect access to payment systems to other financial institutions. The noble Baroness has tabled amendments to this power with a view to addressing a concern that ordering a bank to provide another institution with indirect access to a payment system would expose the access-providing bank to additional operational and compliance risks. I should like to reassure the House that the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness are not required to address the concerns that have motivated them.
This power was designed to serve as a necessary back-stop in case banks with direct access to payment systems reacted to being brought within the regulator’s scope by ceasing to provide indirect access. This would have left smaller players with no access to the vital systems. The Government envisage that the regulator will be likely to exercise this power only in such a situation. It would be used to safeguard the position of the smaller banks reliant on the larger banks for continued access to the systems and to prevent the detrimental consequences for competition in UK retail banking if such access were denied.
The Government are confident that the regulator will not exercise this power in any way that results in banks having to take on undue operational or compliance risks. The power can be exercised only if an institution applies to the regulator to exercise it. The regulator would, in practice, inform the bank which it was proposed be ordered to grant the access and would consider the circumstances of the applicant. It would be open to the bank that was subject to any order to make representations to the regulator about the applicant or any other matter concerning the application. The regulator would consider any such representations in making its decisions. It would not exercise the power if it thought to do so would expose the bank, the subject of the order, to additional risks which it would not be reasonable for it to bear. The Government would expect the regulator to provide in industry guidance more detail on the circumstances and manner in which it would consider using its powers. In the light of that, I would ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
At this point, I shall deal with the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, to certain of the provisions of the proposed regulatory system for payment systems. I should like to reassure the noble Lord that his amendments are not necessary to achieve the end of a proportionate and balanced regulatory system, which I am sure we share. The noble Lord has proposed some additional safeguards to the Treasury’s power to designate payment systems so that they fall within the regulator’s scope. I should like to reassure the noble Lord that the power would be exercised by the Treasury only after proper consideration and where it is genuinely satisfied that the available evidence indicates the designation criteria are met, and that the exercise of its discretion to designate is necessary and proportionate in the circumstances. It is not necessary to make this an express requirement in the Bill. No such provision was included in the precedent power, contained in Section 185 of the Banking Act 2009, under which the Treasury recognises systems for Bank of England oversight. I should also like to reassure the noble Lord that the additional matters that he has proposed should be considered by the Treasury when deciding to designate a system would in any event be considered, and that it is not necessary to state them in the Bill.
Under the procedural provisions, the Treasury must notify operators of payment systems that it proposes to designate and consider any representations made, so we do not believe it is necessary to write into the legislation that the operators must be consulted as that is, in practice, what the Treasury would do. The drafting of this provision matches that contained in the precedent—Section 186 of the Banking Act 2009. In relation to the regulator’s competition objective, it is important to maintain flexibility as to the matters to which the regulator may, rather than must, have regard when considering the effectiveness of competition, particularly given the fast-moving, high-tech nature of the payments industry. The Government do not think that it would be right to accept the noble Lord’s proposal to change this discretion to a duty. The regulator should be free to consider the factors which it considers relevant at any given time to its assessment of the effectiveness of competition. The Government also do not think it is necessary to add to the list of factors the two proposed by the noble Lord. The consistency of treatment of payment systems operators and the impact of any past or proposed regulatory intervention are matters to which the regulator will generally be obliged to have regard as a matter of good administration. For the same reason, the Government believe that the amendments tabled by the noble Lord to the regulatory principles to which the regulator is to have regard are unnecessary. The regulator, as a public authority, would need to act fairly and consistently, and not take action if not necessary or not justified on the basis of the evidence available.
In relation to the regulator’s innovation objective, the Government believe that the noble Lord’s suggestion to supplement it with the objective of promoting the creation and sustaining of a regulatory environment that is conducive to innovation is unnecessary. It is implicit that the regulator will consider how its system of regulation can best support innovation, and it will exercise its regulatory powers only where it thinks that will serve to promote innovation.
On the regulator’s power to order a disposal of an interest in an operator of a payment system and its power to vary certain agreements relating to payment systems, the Government disagree with the noble Lord’s proposal that these powers should be exercisable only where the Competition and Markets Authority has decided that the interest held in the operator of the system has resulted, or is likely to result, in a substantial lessening of competition. This is a power that the Government want the regulator to be able to exercise independently, given the specific knowledge and expertise it is hoped the regulator will acquire in relation to the markets in payment systems and the services provided by them. However, it is important that the interests of all concerned are adequately protected, so the use of this power, and the power to vary agreements concerning payment systems, will be subject to appeal to the Competition and Markets Authority, which could, on the application of the appellant, suspend the effect of the regulator’s decision pending the determination of the appeal. It would be open to the CMA to quash the regulator’s decision and substitute its own for that of the regulator.
In summary, the Government believe that the legislation as drafted provides a balanced and fair regulatory system. In light of that, I would ask the noble Lord not to move his amendments.
Baroness Noakes (Con)
My Lords, as the Minister has said, I have Amendment 138 in this group. He has explained the amendment and the answer to it so well that I did not need to bring my speaking note with me. I thank him for the comments he has made, which have fully answered the points that lay behind my tabling of the amendment. He asked me to withdraw the amendment but as I have not moved it I cannot withdraw it. However, I confirm that I shall not be moving it when we reach the appropriate time on the Marshalled List.
Lord Flight (Con)
My Lords, I support what the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, had to say about the card payment system. Having looked at it in some detail, it strikes me that it is a classic situation of, “If it ain’t bust, don’t fix it”. There are so many other priorities that I urge the Government to think again about this one.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I think the burden of the case of the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, is that the Government are acting disproportionately in seeking to regulate something that is working very well and, in doing so, if they are not careful, they will cause major problems to a system that is currently without major problems. I hope I can reassure him that the principles that he set out at the end of his speech are ones that the Government share. There is no sense in which this regulator is being established with a remit to deal in the heavy-handed way that he fears. Given that we want to cover all payment systems, it would have been remiss to have excluded credit card payment systems. There is, however, no sudden plan to start a new, hugely intensive regime.
The noble Lord made the perfectly valid point that the regulator is slightly unusual in that it not only is a classic regulator but has a function to promote innovation as well. He raised a perfectly valid concern about the staff and whether we will be able to find people with the relevant expertise. We believe that there are people who have the relevant expertise and that it is an extremely interesting area in which innovation can be developed. The FCA will therefore be successful in finding staff who have the expertise and can do the job satisfactorily.
As I say, I am content that we are acting proportionately. We are not going to disrupt a system that is working well and we will be able to find people with the relevant expertise to manage it.
Lord Newby
( ) Sections 81 and”
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
“Publication
(1) The Treasury must publish any designation order.
(2) If the Treasury amends a designation order, the Treasury must publish the amended order.
(3) The Treasury must publish any revocation of a designation order.”
Lord Newby
“(b) in relation to—(i) all operators, or every operator of a regulated payment system of a specified description,(ii) all infrastructure providers, or every person who is an infrastructure provider in relation to a regulated payment system of a specified description, or(iii) all payment service providers, or every person who is a payment service provider in relation to a regulated payment system of a specified description,”
Lord Newby
“(3) A requirement under this section that is imposed on—
(a) all operators of regulated payment systems, or(b) every operator of a regulated payment system of a specified description,is referred to in this Part as a “generally-imposed requirement”.”
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
““appellant” has the meaning given by paragraph 3(4);”
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
“Restrictions on disclosure of confidential information
(1) Confidential information must not be disclosed by a primary recipient, or by any person obtaining the information directly or indirectly from a primary recipient, without the consent of—
(a) the person from whom the primary recipient obtained the information, and(b) if different, the person to whom it relates.(2) In this section “confidential information” means information which—
(a) relates to the business or other affairs of any person,(b) was received by the primary recipient for the purposes of, or in the discharge of, any functions of the Payment Systems Regulator under this Part, and(c) is not prevented from being confidential information by subsection (4).(3) It is immaterial for the purposes of subsection (2) whether or not the information was received—
(a) as a result of a requirement to provide it imposed by or under any enactment;(b) for other purposes as well as purposes mentioned in that subsection.(4) Information is not confidential information if—
(a) it has been made available to the public by virtue of being disclosed in any circumstances in which, or for any purposes for which, disclosure is not precluded by this section, or(b) it is in the form of a summary or a collection of information that is framed in such a way that it is not possible to ascertain from it information relating to any particular person.(5) Each of the following is a primary recipient for the purposes of this section—
(a) the Payment Systems Regulator;(b) the FCA;(c) a person who is or has been employed by the Payment Systems Regulator or the FCA;(d) a person who is or has been engaged to provide services to the Payment Systems Regulator or the FCA;(e) any auditor or expert instructed by the Payment Systems Regulator or the FCA;(f) a person appointed to make a report under section 72;(g) a person appointed under section 73.(6) Nothing in this section applies to information received by a primary recipient for the purposes of, or in the discharge of, any functions of the Payment Systems Regulator under the Competition Act 1998 or the Enterprise Act 2002 by virtue of section 49 or 51.
(For provision about the disclosure of such information, see Part 9 of the Enterprise Act 2002.)”
Lord Newby
“( ) threaten the continuity of core services provided in the United Kingdom,”
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
““CAT-appealable decision” has the meaning given by section 66(4);
“CMA-appealable decision” has the meaning given by section 66(7);”
Lord Newby
“(f) staff.”
Lord Newby
My Lords, the purpose of this amendment is to restrict the early termination of contracts by suppliers of staff to infrastructure companies in respect of which a FMI administration order has been made.
Part 6 of the Bill establishes a special administration regime, to be known as FMI administration, which will be capable of applying to what are known as infrastructure companies. These infrastructure companies are the operators of payment and settlement systems and designated service providers to those operators. Clause 104 is a continuity of supply provision, which restricts the ability of suppliers to terminate the provision of certain listed supplies to an infrastructure company once the company has entered FMI administration. The supplies that are currently within the scope of the restriction are: computer hardware or software; financial data; infrastructure permitting electronic communication services; data processing and access to secure data networks.
This amendment would add the provision of staff to this list of supplies. Agency staff are critical to the functioning of payment and settlement systems, and several payment systems are staffed entirely by agency staff. The early termination of a contract for the supply of staff could result in the discontinuation of the provision of critical services by the payment or settlement system. This amendment will ensure that staff will continue to be supplied during the period of FMI administration.
The FMI administrator would pay for the provision of staff throughout the period of the administration. If during the period of the administration the supplier goes unpaid for 28 days or more, the supplier will be entitled to terminate the supply. I beg to move.
The Archbishop of Canterbury
My Lords, I add my support to what the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, said in specifying these particular contracts, not only for their tax avoidance capacity but because participation in them within the trading community leads to obvious conflicts of interest between their main work during the day, for their employer, and any potential gains or losses they have through the spread betting operations which they are capable of undertaking. In other words, it is very much a cultural problem and it is specifically to do with contracts that are considered to come under the purview of the gaming Acts. That is how I understood this amendment to apply, rather than more generally. From my point of view, I am not certain that it needs to be in the Bill, but it would certainly be useful if the Government were to say that the scope and impact of this should be looked at.
Lord Newby
My Lords, the purpose of the amendment is to require the Treasury to undertake a review of the consequences of exempting certain gaming contracts from the rule that used to provide that no gaming contract or wager could be enforced in a court of law. Such a review would consider the national, commercial and economic effects, in addition to the social, cultural and ethical effects, proposed in the equivalent amendment in Committee. I understand my noble friend’s desire to know more about the consequences of what appears to have been an extensive gambling culture in the City of London, which flourished in the derivative markets that expanded significantly following the gaming contracts rule change but was not limited to those markets.
The financial crisis exposed serious problems in derivative markets—particularly, as the most reverend Primate pointed out during our last debate on the equivalent amendment, in OTC activities. Clearly, the proliferation of such activities and the lack of adequate regulation showed up a need for change.
Following extensive international regulatory debate, a set of significant international reforms was agreed by the G20 to address these concerns. It may be helpful if I provide noble Lords with a short update on what they are. They include measures to ensure transparency by requiring all OTC derivatives transactions to be reported to trade repositories, and the requirement for all standardised derivatives to be centrally cleared and, where appropriate, traded on electronic platforms. These reforms are now being implemented in the UK and should go some way towards limiting the risks associated with these instruments.
So far as the wider effects of gaming in the City are concerned, the PCBS undertook an extensive and wide-ranging examination of the professional standards and culture of the UK banking sector. Its final report made a number of findings on the existing standards and culture in the banking sector, and recommendations as to what might be done to improve the position. We are seeking to give effect to those recommendations in this Bill. As the noble Lord will be aware, we will have a debate on the broader cultural aspects of the PCBS’s report next week.
In the circumstances, I am not sure that a formal Treasury review, as proposed by the noble Lord, is the best way forward. In Committee, I suggested to him that a more appropriate way forward to address his concerns might be for him and, possibly, other Members of your Lordships’ House to work with a think tank that specialises in financial services to undertake such a review. The precedent I had in mind was the review of the banking sector undertaken in the previous Parliament. The Future of Banking Commission was chaired by David Davis MP and included not only my colleague Vince Cable but the noble Lord, Lord McFall. That report had a major impact at the time in influencing the consideration of how we should be looking at the banking sector. The advantage of such a structure over a formal Treasury structure is that it enables a wide range of individuals, including serving politicians, to sit on it. That is much more likely to happen if it is done under the aegis of that sort of think tank than if it is initiated by the Treasury. As a result, when the report came out, it commanded a broad degree of public respect.
I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, and the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury about the specific consequences of potential tax avoidance or evasion by people involved in this sector. I undertake to discuss that with my colleagues in the Treasury in the context of measures that might be brought forward in a future finance Bill. I agree that at first sight it appears to be a loophole that we should have a look at. As noble Lords know, the Government have devoted considerable resource and attention to these issues. I am sure my colleagues in the Treasury will be happy to have a look at the issue.
With those suggestions, I hope my noble friend will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I thank the Minister for what he said. I am particularly pleased to hear him say that he will take up the two practical points made by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, which are entirely germane to the review that I was thinking of. That will be an important step forward. I am obviously disappointed that the Government will not go further, but I do not think that I can take the matter any further today.
In opening, I should have said how grateful I was to two professors at the University of Essex, on whom I relied substantially for a lot of the statistics: Professor Sikka and Professor Markose. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Flight
My Lords, I simply add that there is surely a strong duty of care to the depositors, whose money a bank is lending. The bank has a balancing role of looking after the interests of its depositors and looking after the interests of its loan customers. I also echo the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen. The “treat your customer fairly” principle has been applied across the financial services sector and I think that, in the main, the investment management industry has put it into practice well. However, it is a nightmare to police. If the individuals are not going to be motivated to act properly, then the law, or whatever is in the regulations, will not necessarily lead to that. We can say that we will pass a law and everything will be wonderful but the question is: will people behave correctly?
Lord Newby
My Lords, I am sorry that when we discussed this amendment on a previous occasion, the Government failed to convince the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, that his amendment was not necessary. I hope that I will have more success this time because I believe that the amendment is neither necessary nor helpful.
We all share the objective of driving up standards in banking and improving the treatment of customers. That is why the Chancellor set up the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards and why we have accepted the vast majority of its recommendations. However, we remain unconvinced that the noble Lord’s amendment will add anything meaningful to these reforms.
The regulator’s FSA Principles for Business already includes what is virtually a fiduciary duty. Principle 10 states:
“A firm must arrange adequate protection for clients’ assets when it is responsible for them”.
As other noble Lords have mentioned, these high-level principles also already include the principle that:
“A firm must pay due regard to the interests of its customers and treat them fairly”.
I am not sure how the noble Lord’s amendment would improve standards or help bank customers; nor do I think that he has explained what the new duties on firms really mean. When he spoke in Committee, he said:
“This will increase consumer protection and help to restore confidence of the retail customer in banks. It will raise standards of conduct because banks will know they are responsible for acting according to these duties”. —[Official Report, 23/10/13; col. 1092.]
But my question is: how will it do that? How will it, as he hopes, stop the kind of scandals that we have had in the past? I think that that is an extremely difficult question for the noble Lord to answer in that neither “fiduciary duty” nor “duty of care” in this context describes a specific, precise obligation. As I have explained before, regulators’ rules provide very specific obligations.
I should add that the Official Opposition in the other place seemed to understand this difficulty. When an identical amendment was considered in Committee there, the opposition spokesperson, Cathy Jamieson MP, acknowledged the risk of unintended consequences or lack of clarity. She emphasised that the purpose of the amendment was to ensure that,
“customers are looked after and that banks are clear about their responsibilities and remember the part of the contractual relationship with customers that is about looking after their money”.—[Official Report, Commons, Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill Committee, 16/4/13; col. 247.]
Of course, that is what we all want. That is why the Government introduced the regulatory reforms and new properly focused regulators. The FCA, in particular, will focus on protecting consumers and maintaining market integrity.
This Bill will take the process further by strengthening the regime of individual accountability and standards for those who work in firms, in line with the recommendations of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. These rules will be specific. They will be precise. They will set out the responsibilities of banking staff and senior persons to their customers. Moreover, they will be enforceable by the regulator. If they are broken, those people will be punished and could be subject to fines or public censure.
If we were to have the general duty of care or fiduciary duty as set out in the amendment, how would that be enforced? In law a fiduciary duty is enforced by the person to whom the duty is owed taking action in the courts. Does the noble Lord really believe that those people, some of the most vulnerable at the sharp end of bank practices, are likely to pursue their bank through the courts? Instead, the Government’s reforms have established a regulator with real teeth, of whom the banks will genuinely be scared—indeed, I think they are. Bolstered by a clear and binding set of banking standards rules, which specify codes of conduct and personal responsibility through the senior persons regime, this will mean a real change for consumers. The noble Lord referred to the SEC introducing a fiduciary duty in the United States. The proposed fiduciary duty in US securities law is not comparable. The proposal, on which incidentally the SEC itself has not yet taken any clear position, extends only to covering activities that involve giving advice. In any case, in the UK, when a firm provides advice to a customer, a duty of care already exists under the general law. In that respect, the US is simply looking to catch up.
To sum up, attempting to add duties of care or fiduciary duties of the kind proposed in this amendment would add nothing to the existing protections for customers. It is unnecessary and would not add any clarity to existing requirements. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, I regret that the Government seem to have learnt nothing since Committee stage. We have heard the repetition of high-level principles of the regulator protecting customers. What has actually happened? There have been successive scandals when customers were not protected by the regulators and successive scandals in which treating customers fairly was simply a joke.
The noble Lord also referred to a number of specific provisions. That is the great weakness of the regulatory structure. We have simply specified conditions. As we all know, that which is not specified is permitted. The whole point of having a fiduciary responsibility and duty of care in the terms that I set out when I moved the amendment is to create a general responsibility that will be enforceable in law by individuals and, indeed, by collective actions. Therefore, it seems to me that simply saying, “We have made things better by making them more specific and providing regulators with teeth”, is not the same as providing protection for the individual, which is exactly what the amendment would do. Given that the notions of fiduciary duty and duty of care are successful in other professions, why—the Government failed to answer this question—can they not be successful in the banking profession? That question was not answered. This is so important that I wish to test the opinion of the House.
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
My Lords, in Committee, the Government proposed that the FCA should be given competition powers, to be exercisable concurrently with the Competition and Markets Authority, to make sure that the FCA has the right tools to get the job done. The amendment that we tabled to achieve this set out the scope of the FCA’s concurrent competition powers as applying to “financial sector activities”, defined as relating to,
“the provision of financial services”.
The amendment also included a delegated power that would allow the definition of “financial services activities” to be changed in future. It was felt that allowing this definition to be amended by order helped to future-proof the legislation by providing the flexibility to adjust the scope of the FCA’s competition powers should this be warranted—for example, because some new activity that arose in the future did not qualify as the provision of financial services.
However, concerns over this were raised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, particularly that the power was too wide-reaching and unnecessary, given the breadth of the definition of “financial sector activities”. I am grateful to the committee for its efforts in scrutinising the Bill and the Government’s amendments. In the light of the already very wide definition of “financial sector activities” and the views of the committee, the Government have decided to remove this power, along with procedural provisions concerning its exercise, from the proposed legislation.
The Government have tabled another amendment to ensure that the competition powers conferred on the FCA are capable of being exercised effectively. One of the powers conferred on the FCA is the ability to conduct a market study in the context of markets for the provision of financial services. If the FCA discovers competition-related concerns, it can refer the market for investigation by the Competition and Markets Authority. The amendment we are discussing today serves to ensure that a legal restriction on the FCA disclosing confidential information would not prevent the FCA from sharing with the Competition and Markets Authority confidential information which was relevant to a CMA market investigation. The amendment would also ensure that the provisions concerning treatment of confidential information that apply to other regulators with concurrent competition powers would also apply to the FCA, ensuring consistency. I beg to move.
Lord Newby
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, Amendment 172 derives from, and is a response to, an amendment that the Government successfully moved in Committee, which gave the PRA a secondary competition objective directly related to issues of market structure and performance. We have developed in this Bill, and in the previous Financial Services Bill which we also considered in this Session, a twin-peaks approach to financial regulation, with the Financial Conduct Authority looking at conduct of business and the Prudential Regulation Authority looking at issues associated with the prudential behaviour of firms.
Given that the PRA now has a competition objective, we should not allow the twin peaks to isolate consumer representation. The FCA consumer panel has an important role in advising on and responding to FCA proposals with respect to conduct of business but, with the PRA now having a competition objective, the issues which affect consumers directly will involve the competition element of prudential regulation. It is important, and entirely appropriate, that the PRA at least considers and responds to representations made by the FCA’s Consumer Panel—that is all we are asking for—so that decisions which the PRA makes with respect to market structure and performance have an appropriate consumer input. I beg to move.
Lord Newby
My Lords, this amendment concerns the important issue of consumer representation at the PRA and requires the PRA to consider and respond to representations from the FCA’s Consumer Panel.
There is much to welcome in the approach suggested. It is important to ensure that there is sufficient regard to consumer concerns at the PRA, especially where there are specific issues of consumer protection that the PRA should take into account. I welcome the recognition that it will not require the creation of a completely new body in order to achieve this. We need, of course, to be mindful of maintaining flexibility on the best way for the PRA to take into account representations from consumers and the need to avoid overly burdensome arrangements.
Following the earlier discussions on this issue, the regulators have considered how best to ensure consumer interests are communicated to the PRA. The regulators have come to the view that there should be arrangements for the FCA Consumer Panel to be able to raise concerns with the PRA, and I believe that it is worth considering putting arrangements on a statutory basis. We will therefore consider coming back at Third Reading with amendments, subject to reflection on the best way to do that without incurring unnecessary costs or burdens for the regulators or the panel. We would be happy to discuss further with noble Lords opposite the most effective approach to doing this. In view of that, I hope that the amendment can be withdrawn.
Lord Eatwell
There I was with my notes saying how inadequate the noble Lord’s answer was going to be. I am delighted that the Government have recognised the power of this argument and I look forward to discussions with them and to the moving of amendments at Third Reading.
Lord Newby
“(2) In section 3A of FSMA 2000 (meaning of “regulator”), in subsection (3)—
(a) omit the “or” at the end of paragraph (a), and(b) after paragraph (b) insert “or(c) the meaning of “regulator” in sections 410A and 410B (fees to meet certain expenses of Treasury).””
Lord Newby
Lord Turnbull
I shall speak also to Amendment 183. This is about whether there should be a statutory basis for the existing remuneration code. One can analyse this at three levels. First, does the current code permit the kind of actions that the parliamentary commission recommended, such as longer deferrals where the nature of the risk justifies it, and more extensive clawback? Secondly, will those powers be used more rigorously than they have been in the past, particularly for banks? Thirdly, is giving statutory backing through the Bill necessary in order to ensure the correct answer to the second question?
Since tabling this amendment, we received a letter from the noble Lord, Lord Newby, on Monday, which in my view gives a satisfactory answer to the first question. All that the parliamentary commission sought, with the possible exception of forfeiture of some pension rights, can be imposed under existing powers. With regard to the second question—will those powers be used more rigorously?—the letter from the noble Lord, Lord Newby, says that the regulators,
“have stated that they will revise the … Code following consultation in 2014. The Government will work with regulators to ensure that …the Code [takes] full account of the views of the PCBS and the debates”,
on this Bill. Therefore, it is a matter of judgment for the House. Does it want to accept those assurances or does it feel that further amendments are needed to embed this presumption more fully? I think that the correct way forward is for there to be some further discussion about precisely what the review and the outcome might be. I look forward to hearing what the noble Lord has to say.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I am extremely pleased that my letter has at least partially satisfied the noble Lord. He has left me with a remaining question, which is: are we happy to continue to engage with him and his colleagues as we work towards, and consider, the review? I can give him the absolute assurance that we will be very happy to do so. On that basis, I hope that he will feel content to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Turnbull
On the basis of that assurance, I am indeed content to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Turnbull
This amendment concerns the concept of special measures. We were again told, as we often have been, that all the powers necessary are there and that, indeed, they are being used. That may well be the case. However, the Minister did not respond to my suggestion that, if this is part of the armoury of the regulators, it would be helpful if they set that out so that there was wider understanding of the special measures regime. I do not think that the regime has an identity in the way that it has in the US, where they talk about memorandums of understanding. Subject to that, I would be happy to put this matter into the box labelled “For further discussions”. I beg to move.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I think that this is now having the appearance of a Christmas box, in that the noble Lord is asking the Government to agree to things and we are tending to agree to agree to things.
Given all the powers that the regulators already have, we have been slightly sceptical about whether they need to have, as it were, an Ofsted power of special measures. We do not think that they need more powers but, in order to address the noble Lord’s concern that failings in professional standards and cultures should not be overlooked, we shall be happy to discuss this with him further and to involve the PRA in discussions about how we move towards a firm policy in this area.
Lord Lawson of Blaby
My Lords, I am very grateful regarding a number of issues. The Government have said that they are going to move further and will probably —and, in most cases, definitely—bring something forward at Third Reading. That is excellent, but it means that we are going to have a lot of government amendments to consider for Third Reading. I stress what I said yesterday about how important it is that this House has plenty of time to consider the amendments that the Government, to whom I am grateful, will bring forward. They must be tabled at the earliest practicable date and well before the date set for Third Reading otherwise it will be necessary for that date to be postponed.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I understand the point being made by the noble Lord. I am not sure at this point, without further discussion, whether we need an amendment at Third Reading. We think that the way forward might be a PRA policy statement, but we can have urgent discussions with the noble Lord on that.
Lord Turnbull
It is indeed a PRA policy statement that I am after. I am trying to establish a regime in which the regulator sees things that are going wrong and gets into dialogue with the company about remedial measures to head off the long-drawn-out agony of enforcement. If it is already doing it, it would be helpful to codify it but I am very happy to work with the Minister on that basis. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Newby
“Power to impose penalties on persons providing claims management services
(1) The Schedule to the Compensation Act 2006 (claims management regulations) is amended as follows.
(2) In paragraph 8 (rules about conduct of authorised persons), in sub-paragraph (2)(b), after sub-paragraph (i) insert—
“(ia) provision enabling the Regulator to require an authorised person to pay a penalty;”.(3) In paragraph 9 (codes of practice about conduct of authorised persons), in sub-paragraph (2)(b), after sub-paragraph (i) insert—
“(ia) enable the Regulator to require an authorised person to pay a penalty;”.(4) In paragraph 10 (complaints about conduct of authorised persons), after sub-paragraph (2) insert—
“(3) Regulations under sub-paragraph (1) may enable the Regulator to require an authorised person to pay a penalty.”
(5) In paragraph 11 (requirement to have indemnity insurance), in sub-paragraph (2)(b), after “Regulator” insert “to require the payment of a penalty by an authorised person or”.
(6) In paragraph 14 (enforcement), in sub-paragraph (4), for the words from “impose” to “authorisation” substitute “require an authorised person to pay a penalty, or to impose conditions on, suspend or cancel a person’s authorisation,”.
(7) After paragraph 15 insert—
“Penalties: supplementary provision16 (1) This paragraph applies in any case where regulations include provision enabling the Regulator to require an authorised person to pay a penalty.
(2) The regulations—
(a) shall include provision about how the Regulator is to determine the amount of a penalty, and(b) may, in particular, include provision specifying a minimum or maximum amount.(3) The regulations—
(a) shall provide for income from penalties imposed by the Regulator to be paid into the Consolidated Fund, but(b) may provide that such income is to be paid into the Consolidated Fund after the deduction of costs incurred by the Regulator in collecting, or enforcing the payment of, such penalties.(4) The regulations may also include, in particular—
(a) provision for a penalty imposed by the Regulator to be enforced as a debt;(b) provision specifying conditions that must be met before any action to enforce a penalty may be taken.”(8) In section 13 of the Compensation Act 2006 (appeals and references to Tribunal)—
(a) in subsection (1), omit the “or” at the end of paragraph (d) and after paragraph (e) insert “, or(f) imposes a penalty on the person.”;(b) after subsection (1) insert—“(1A) A person who is appealing to the Tribunal against a decision to impose a penalty may appeal against—
(a) the imposition of the penalty,(b) the amount of the penalty, or(c) any date by which the penalty, or any part of it, is required to be paid.”;(c) in subsection (3), after paragraph (d) insert—“(da) may require a person to pay a penalty (which may be of a different amount from that of any penalty imposed by the Regulator);(db) may vary any date by which a penalty, or any part of a penalty, is required to be paid;”.”
Lord Newby
My Lords, Amendments 185 to 189, 191 to 194 and 197 to 198 are government amendments on claims management companies and non-government amendments on the consumer’s access to redress from CMCs through the Office for Legal Complaints.
Turning first to the government amendments on CMCs, it is clear that bad practice by certain claims management companies operating in the financial services sector has created poor outcomes for both consumers and businesses. As the scale of potential claims for PPI compensation has become clear, CMCs have become particularly active in this market. Unfortunately, this increase in activity has in some cases been accompanied by an unacceptable fall in standards. CMCs have a legitimate role to play in helping consumers claim compensation. However, a minority have been acting irresponsibly. Some CMCs submitted illegitimate claims which clog up the system. This poor behaviour has led to delays in receiving compensation for consumers who have legitimate claims and has increased costs for defendant financial services firms where claims are unsubstantiated. This issue is most prevalent in, but not limited to, the financial services sector and the PPI claims market in particular. Despite the threat of the suspension or cancellation of authorisation, some CMCs act speculatively which can impose unnecessary costs on defendant businesses and ultimately on consumers.
These amendments enable the Secretary of State to make regulations giving the claims management regulator the power to impose financial penalties on those CMCs guilty of misconduct, which will lead to tighter regulation of the industry and better outcomes for consumers and businesses. They also make a number of consequential amendments, ensuring that the provisions of the Bill on secondary legislation, including the power to make incidental or transitional provision, are extended to apply to the Secretary of State as well as the Treasury; that the commencement power applies to these provisions; and that providers of claims management services are referred to in the Long Title of the Bill.
Bolstering the claims management regulator’s enforcement toolkit by giving it a power to fine those engaged in malpractice provides an additional means to deter speculative activity. Further, a power to fine could serve as a useful alternative penalty in cases where it can be disproportionate to vary, suspend or cancel the authorisation of a CMC despite it not being compliant. Where a CMC’s authorisation is suspended or cancelled, for example, it can no longer act on behalf of its clients and this can lead to further consumer detriment. We can ensure that these CMCs go on to work in the best interests of consumers by making sure that they adhere to the codes of practice and Conduct of Authorised Persons Rules issued by the claims management regulator. These rules require CMCs to conduct themselves with honesty and integrity, including requirements to not make speculative claims, to not use misleading advertising, and to not partake in high-pressure selling. I apologise for that stream of split infinitives.
Lord Newby
My Lords, if we can do it at Third Reading, we will. I am advised that there are a number of technical and procedural issues that we have to go through. I hope we can do it at Third Reading. I shall certainly press very hard that we do, and every effort will be made to achieve that.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Brennan in his attempt to remove subsection (2)(b) from Clause 124. As he has clearly told the House, it would enable secondary legislation to amend future Acts prior to the end of the Session—not this Act, but other enactments. This is an extraordinary power which was justified in Committee by using the argument that there are precedents. No precedents have been produced. It is shocking that the promise of a letter made over five weeks ago has not actually been kept on something which raised considerable concern in Committee. I think that the Government need to take this matter very seriously indeed and not palm it off with what seem to be entirely unsubstantiated stories of precedence.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I understand the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, and I assure him again that there is nothing unusual about the form of the power to make consequential amendments in Clause 124, and in particular, subsection (2)(b) does not extend the power unreasonably. My memory of exactly what I have written to whom, given that I have written to quite a number of people, is slightly hazy. I think I may have referred to this issue in what was a sort of portmanteau letter to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell. It covered a whole raft of issues that had been raised not only by him but by other noble Lords. If I did not do so, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Brennan. However, in what I am about to say, I think that I can deal with the main point that he made.
Removing paragraph (b) would limit the power to make consequential amendments to Acts which are passed before the passing of this Act. That can produce unpredictable results depending on the progress of Bills and the dates on which they happen to reach Royal Assent. For this reason, powers to make consequential amendments to existing legislation often refer to Acts which are passed in the same Session as the Act in question. Noble Lords have asked for examples of this, and I can give them several. Such powers can be found in Section 51 of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, Section 237 of the Planning Act 2008, Section 28 of the Welfare Reform Act 2007 and Section 118 of the Financial Services Act 2012—the provision on which Clause 124 was modelled.
The assumption is that Bills of the same Session are likely to have been prepared by reference to the existing law at the beginning of the Session, while the Bills of the next Session would have to take account of the change in the law produced by the Act in question. Where a Bill is amended significantly in its passage through the second House, it is particularly unlikely that Bills passed or made in the same Session will have taken account of all the provisions of the new Bill. That clearly applies in this case, as your Lordships know. The need to implement the recommendations of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards has required very extensive amendments to the Bill in this House, and therefore it will not have been possible for the Bills which are being considered by Parliament in this Session to have taken full account of all the changes in the law which will be made by this Bill. Nor has there been time for the Government to consider all the Bills currently before the House to see if any consequential amendments may be required, or to follow all the amendments being proposed to these Bills. We have not, for example, had the opportunity to review the Pensions Bill, which may have provisions relevant to the subject matter of this Bill, or the Immigration Bill, which has some provisions on banking. We cannot rule out the possibility that it may be necessary for the Government to make consequential amendments to them.
I assure the House that the amendment introducing this power was considered by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, and that committee has not expressed any concerns in relation to this power. I hope that, in the light of these assurances, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Brennan
Will the Minister clarify, first, his reference to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee? Was its response made in writing, has it been published, and is it available in the Printed Paper Office? Secondly, and much more important, is that as his research appears to have been done, can he clarify whether on any previous occasion this power has actually led to the amendment of another Bill being passed in the same Session, but after the Act which gave rise to the power?
Lord Newby
I thank the noble Lord for that question. It is the normal practice of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee to include in one report its views on a number of Bills. I believe that that is what happened in this case and I will definitely write to the noble Lord if it has not.
Lord Brennan
Would it be possible for the Minister to confirm that because I asked specifically in the Printed Paper Office for all the relevant paperwork about this, and I was not given any report.
Lord Newby
I will absolutely confirm that, and I will write to the noble Lord on the second point, which I promise to do speedily.
Care Sector: Minimum Wage
Lord Newby Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Beecham
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they will take to enforce minimum wage legislation in the care sector, in the light of publication by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs of figures disclosing non-compliance with the legislation.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, employers found not to pay minimum wage must pay arrears plus a penalty, and may be prosecuted. From 1 October 2013, all those who break minimum wage law will be named, as an additional deterrent alongside existing financial penalties. Non-compliant employers identified during this evaluation in the care sector will meet the new criteria for naming if investigated from 1 October this year. HMRC continues to investigate every worker complaint from the care sector.
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, the announcement of naming and shaming and perhaps heavier financial penalties is welcome. However, given that the HMRC investigation showed that 48% of care sector employers surveyed were paying staff below the minimum wage and that only a tiny number of prosecutions had been brought, what further steps will the Government take to enforce the law. and what additional resources will they make available for this purpose?
Lord Newby
My Lords, in addition to the naming and shaming, the noble Lord will have heard the Prime Minister announce today that the maximum fine payable under the law will be increased fourfold. However, the work that is done with key stakeholders is a very important element of ensuring that the law is enforced and indeed understood. The Government work very closely in this sector with the UK Home Care Association and the trade union enforcement group, of which UNISON is the principal member.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)
My Lords, is the Minister aware—I have mentioned this to the House before—that self-employed carers are often paid as little as £3 per hour, and that there is no control whatever over the self-employed? People who work officially for care sources are paid the minimum wage per hour but get nothing for the travel time between jobs. It could be that for every hour they work as a carer there is another unpaid hour, which surely makes a nonsense of saying that they are getting that amount per hour. What does the Minister believe can be done to improve the situation, because the care service is very important?
Lord Newby
My Lords, if people are paid the minimum wage for hours when they are working and not being paid for travelling time between periods of work, that brings down the average amount paid per time at work to below the minimum wage. Therefore, employers are acting illegally. One of the principal findings in the study, which is the subject of this Question, is that the travelling time of people working in domiciliary care is one of the main reasons for people being paid below the minimum wage. HMRC operates under a contract from BIS to manage this process. The system has remained essentially unaltered since the minimum wage was introduced some 15 years ago, and the resources made available to it have been protected during the period of this Parliament.
Lord Morris of Handsworth (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the biggest single problem regarding deprivation and poor health is, in fact, low pay? Will the Minister therefore show support not just for the minimum wage but for a living wage?
Lord Newby
I agree with the noble Lord; the Government encourage employers to pay the living wage. However, another thing we are doing is that my colleague Vince Cable has asked the Low Pay Commission to see what scope there is for increasing the minimum wage beyond the rate of inflation without having a significant negative impact on jobs.
Lord Palmer (CB)
My Lords, how many actual prosecutions have there been of those who failed to comply with this legislation?
Lord Newby
My Lords, in the period since 2006 there have been nine prosecutions. The policy on prosecutions was set by the previous Government and is based on the concept of selective and exemplary cases. That is why the number of prosecutions is relatively low, whereas the amounts of arrears collected and the number of employers who have received penalties are significantly greater. The number of employers who received a penalty in the past financial year is 708.
Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister mentioned stakeholders. I believe the Government are committed to seeing service users and patients as the most important stakeholders in service provision. Since care workers often have the first and the closest contact with such service users, does the Minister believe that the way we value and support such workers is of the utmost importance? Does he further believe that the current problems with local authority budgets are bound to have an effect on both the number and the quality of care workers?
Lord Newby
My Lords, I certainly pay tribute to the work done by care workers. Obviously, local budgets are constrained. However, to the extent that local authorities are commissioning care, they have an obligation to ensure that their commissioning is done in such a way that the people providing it are not in breach of the conditions on low pay. One of the key points in this area is the provision by HMRC of a free pay and work rights helpline for people who feel that they may be suffering because they are not getting the minimum wage as a result of things such as the travelling time problem that we discussed earlier. The helpline is heavily used, but everybody who rings it will have their case looked into.
Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)
Does not this report indicate the determination of the Government to insist on compliance with the minimum wage legislation? Within what timetable does the Secretary of State for Business expect his investigation on linking minimum wages to the living wage to come to fruition?
Lord Newby
My Lords, the Secretary of State at BIS—Vince Cable—very recently asked the Low Pay Unit to look into this matter with considerable urgency, although I do not think that he has put an absolute date on it. However, the Government take this issue extremely seriously. We hope very much that we can make quicker progress than we have in the past in raising the level of the minimum wage.
Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill
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Lord Eatwell (Lab)
My Lords, having listened to my noble friend Lord Brennan and the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, I found this discussion quite disturbing. The creation of a criminal offence is one aspect of the Bill that pushes forward the regulatory regime in the UK and creates an environment more suited to the somewhat cavalier nature of finance in a global marketplace—in particular by identifying those activities that have inflicted enormous harm upon our fellow citizens. What I heard was that, as drafted, the probability of securing a conviction or even a prosecution, as the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, put it, is vanishingly small. Unless the terminology is clarified in a way laid out so clearly by my noble friend, this part of the Bill will simply bring that aspect of regulation into disrepute because it will be worthless. That is why I regard the remarks that I have heard from the two distinguished lawyers who have just spoken to be very disturbing. It is incumbent upon the Government not simply to produce a pat answer here this evening but again to produce a carefully written assessment of the case for an appropriate criminal regime and its implementation in order that the whole House has an opportunity to assess this important aspect prior to Third Reading.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, these amendments essentially aim to make three changes to the criminal offence: first, to allow defendants to be prosecuted under the offence when a number of decisions taken together cause the bank to fail; secondly, to enable the offence to be made out when the decision or decisions in question were a significant contributory factor to the failure of the bank, rather than its sole cause; and, thirdly, to include within the definition of bank failure the systematic failure of the bank to prevent liability with regards to broader criminal offences.
On the first two issues, while I understand noble Lords’ concerns, I assure them that these amendments are not necessary to deliver the effects they intend. First, I assure noble Lords that, as a matter of law, under Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 words in the singular include the plural unless express provision is made otherwise. The term “decision” includes “decisions”, plural. Therefore, where appropriate, it will be possible to prosecute on the basis of the implementation of a number of decisions. The Interpretation Act 1978 ensures that it is not necessary to repeat the defined terms or make express provision for the singular to include the plural in every single statute. The case for abandoning that practice seems rather minimal in this instance.
Moreover, in practice we generally expect a prosecution of the offence to focus on one individual decision in order to maximise the ability of the prosecution to make its case effectively when asking the jury to consider what are likely to be very complex events. This would enable the prosecution to focus on the causal relationship between the implementation of one decision and the failure of the bank, where that relationship seems to be most clear. In these cases, any other relevant decisions would be taken into account by the jury as the circumstances in which the key decision was taken, when the jury was deciding whether the defendant’s behaviour fell far below that which reasonably could be expected of him or her. For example, a decision to take on a risky acquisition may be more or less reasonable depending on earlier decisions to strengthen or weaken the bank’s capital position.
These amendments also include references to agreeing to the carrying on of activities by a firm. This would add nothing to the offence as currently drafted, since the reference to agreeing to the firm carrying on certain activities assumes that those activities in some way require authorisation and this must involve taking a decision, or agreeing to the taking of a decision, by or on behalf of the firm, and is therefore already included in the offence.
Moving on to Amendments 94, 95, 100 and 102, under general principles of criminal law the test for an action having “caused” an event to occur is that, had that action not been taken, the event would not have occurred. Therefore, in this specific offence the test is that, if the decision or decisions in question had not been implemented, the bank would not have failed. The implementation of the decision need not be the sole or even the main cause of the bank’s failure. In practice, because of the evidential standard that applies to criminal cases, we expect that cases will be prosecuted only where it is very clear that the implementation of the decision or decisions in question was a significant contributing factor to the failure of the bank.
In addition to these general points, the Government oppose some aspects of the amendments in principle. As well as including reference to “activity”, Amendment 97 would lower the bar of the reasonableness test for when the offence would be committed. As set out in Committee, the Government do not think this is appropriate. Referring to conduct which is far below that which would be expected has precedents in the Law Commission proposal for a statutory offence of killing by gross carelessness and in legislation creating the offence of corporate manslaughter. We have used this particular phrase knowing that it works and can be effectively interpreted by the courts. There is no precedent in UK criminal law for criminalising behaviour that is merely unreasonable. To do so would amount to an indiscriminate diffusion of criminal liability, in a way that made it hard for individuals to know with sufficient certainty when they might be committing an offence.
Amendment 118 would expand the definition of institutional failure that would trigger the offence to include occasions where there was a systematic failure of the bank to comply with a range of laws imposing criminal liability in connection with the conduct of financial services business. A similar amendment was raised in Committee, focused specifically on compliance with the Fraud Act 2006, the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 or the Money Laundering Regulations 2007. The Government’s position on this remains unchanged—this offence has been introduced to plug a gap in existing legislation where there are no criminal powers available to sanction senior managers who have recklessly caused their banks to fail. By definition, criminal liability can arise where offences already exist that individuals can be convicted for and appropriately punished, depending on the seriousness of the breach. In certain cases, they can also be charged with consenting to or conniving in such activities. It is difficult to see how this amendment strengthens the offence.
The noble Lord, Lord Brennan, raised the question of the definition of “way”. The expression includes both the activities in the business and how those activities are carried out. This makes the offence broader. The noble Lord also suggested, if I understood him right, that in some cases the real risk is that people did not know what risk they were taking or wilfully turned a blind eye. While it might appear attractive to include incompetence by senior managers in the offence, doing so could introduce unwelcome and potentially damaging uncertainty into the sector. Further, to comply with the European Convention on Human Rights, the offence must be sufficiently certain to enable individuals to know when they are at risk of committing the offence. However, this does not mean that it is possible for a senior manager to simply close their eyes to the risk the bank is taking. In some cases a court may decide that it can be inferred that a particular person had knowledge of a risk. In the case of a director, ignorance of a risk to the bank’s existence may, in some cases, be to admit to breaches of the duties under the Companies Act 2006. Accordingly, there are cases in which an argument that a defendant had no knowledge of a particular risk would carry very little credibility and could even expose the defendant to criticism for breach of duty.
We take this offence extremely seriously as a key part of the new infrastructure that we are putting in place and we believe that it meets the test we have set out. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, first, is my noble friend quite certain that the Interpretation Act 1978 does not itself operate subject to the context of the language which is being interpreted? If that is so, I believe that there will be real ambiguity about this clause because, as I say, the law is construed strictly in favour of the accused. Secondly, does he accept that in a clause like this, to rely on the Interpretation Act rather than put in some plain words that make it clear, is unhelpful to people who must refer to this piece of legislation in the future?
Lord Newby
I am not sure that I do, my Lords, but I wonder if I might write to the noble Lord to clarify our thinking and, it is hoped, persuade him that we have got it right.
Lord Brennan
My Lords, listening to the exposition of the Minister leads an experienced lawyer to think that those were the kinds of arguments that would make for an entertaining tutorial at university and deprive the participants of any career at the criminal Bar, because they simply would not know what they were talking about in terms of what a judge and jury would expect by way of argument. I am sorry to put it so bluntly, but it really is a clash with the Interpretation Act that would lead to ribald laughter in most criminal chambers. I am being serious about this. It is the kind of argument that you would expect to get from a bright lawyer with no criminal law experience. The Government must face up to this. I do not understand why they cannot take advice from a competent independent Treasury counsel on the scope of the offence in order to make sure that they can prosecute, or at least hope to prosecute. Creating such an offence in-house is, I think, highly suspect.
I will go through this point by point. First, why should not the statute say decision and/or decisions—one of the two? Secondly, why, as the noble Lord has suggested, do we have to get ourselves into the circumstance of having to identify the key decision? It may be extremely difficult to do that because it may be a refined banking judgment where a series of acts or decisions which led to failure may be cumulative and not the result of the key decision. Thirdly, how the word “cause” in the criminal law can be construed to be “significantly contributed to” is not, I think, something that figures in the criminal law books.
I turn next to corporate manslaughter. The argument has to be met. The fact that you get the same words in another statute is of no importance until you consider the context in which the words are being used. Far below that, in the industrial safety context, is the matter of common sense. In terms of banking behaviour, it is an extremely complex exercise to expect a jury to carry out, and an unnecessary one. The answer given in response to the amendments did not include any explanation of why this statute is taking itself down a different route from R v G. Wilful blindness is a specific criminal law phrase designed to embrace the people who deliberately close their eyes to something. It does not embrace innocent incompetence. The very word wilful imports the culpability of it.
My last point, in agreement with my noble friend Lord Eatwell, who is known as an academic, is that the legislature would be shooting itself in the foot if it created a criminal offence which the public came to treat as having no effect, bordering on the ridiculous. That would be a major political mistake. Those on the government Bench who take such matters into account should pay more attention to that than to the legal advice they are getting. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)
My Lords, Amendment 178 concerns continuous payment authorities. This is an issue that I raised during the passage of the Financial Services Act 2012. Continuous payment authorities are a recurring payment mechanism involving a debit or credit card where the debtor gives his or her card to the company and they contact the bank. Unlike direct debits or standing orders, this allows a firm to take regular payments from a customer’s bank account without having to seek express authority for each payment. When I made this point to the Minister, the noble Lord Lord Newby said that,
“abuse of the CPA is one of the most concerning practices of payday lenders”.—[Official Report, 28/11/12, col. 235.]
Consumer groups, the Law Society and the OFT have expressed ongoing concerns about this issue. The real issue is that the debtor—the customer—is not in full charge of their affairs. The continuous payment authorities do not offer the same guarantee as direct debits or standing orders. In effect, they give the company authority about how much is taken from an individual’s account and when. This is hugely important to those who take out payday loans, whose financial position is tenuous. Unlike direct debits and standing orders, there is no written communication between the individual and the bank. This situation has led to the banks reviewing up to 30,000 complaints from customers since 2009. According to the Financial Conduct Authority, quite a number of those will be eligible for compensation. That authority has said that many of the banks or providers are not cancelling recurring payments to payday loan firms.
Last December, the OFT warned that businesses should not lock customers into CPA traps because people did not know what they were signing up to. The OFT opened formal investigations last November into several payday lenders over aggressive debt collection practices. Their progress report focused on concerns regarding unfair or improper practices:
“Using the CPA in a manner which is unreasonable or disproportionate or excessive in failing to have proper regard to the possibility that a debtor is in financial difficulties”.
This includes,
“seeking payment before income or other funds may reasonably be expected to reach the account”.
The Financial Ombudsman Service was seeing 50 new cases a month at the end of last year. My information is that that number has increased since.
Such blatantly unfair treatment of consumers should not be restricted to a matter of guidance. The new clause that I am proposing ensures that debtors are informed about their rights and that only the debtor may cancel or vary a CPA in communication with the bank. Furthermore, the debtor’s bank is obliged to comply with the debtor’s instructions, as they do with direct debits and standing orders. I suggest to the Minister that in these austere times we ought to legislate to protect such debtors and to ensure a level playing field between the lender and the debtor.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Sharkey and Lord McFall, for raising this very important issue again. The Government wholeheartedly agree that consumers must be protected when they borrow from payday lenders and use other high-cost forms of credit. Payday lenders are causing unacceptable consumer harm and the Government are committed to putting that right.
As noble Lords will know, the Government have taken decisive action to protect borrowers by fundamentally reforming the regulatory system governing these lenders. This House strongly supported the Government’s proposals to transfer the regulation of consumer credit to the FCA during the passage of the Financial Services Bill last year.
The Government have ensured that the FCA has robust powers to protect customers of high-cost lenders. It will thoroughly assess every lender’s fitness to continue to trade. It will put in place much higher standards that firms will have to meet, and those requirements will, for the first time, be binding on firms. It will proactively monitor the market, focusing on the areas most likely to cause consumer harm. The FCA has a broad enforcement toolkit to punish breaches of the rules: there is no limit on the fines it can levy and, crucially, it can force lenders to provide redress to consumers.
The FCA takes up its new regulatory responsibilities in this area on 1 April next year. But it has already demonstrated that it is serious about cracking down on high-cost lenders. Its draft rules, published on 3 October, restrict some of the practices that cause most consumer detriment, and have won widespread support. But we are convinced that further action will be needed to ensure that this market functions in a way that is in consumers’ interests. As noble Lords will be aware, the Government have announced that they will bring forward an amendment to this Bill at Third Reading to require the FCA to use its powers to cap the cost of payday loans.
I will not pre-empt our discussion at Third Reading but I would just like to make a few key points on the need for a cap on the costs of credit. The Government have always kept the case for a cap under review as the market has evolved. With growing evidence, including from other countries, in support of a cap, we believe that now is the right time to give the FCA a clear parliamentary mandate to take action under the powers we have given it to implement a cap on total costs.
The FCA has an important job to do: it must ensure that it designs a cap that works in UK consumers’ best interests and fits the UK market. To do that, it needs to consider the evidence thoroughly, including drawing on the valuable work being undertaken by the Competition Commission to investigate the fundamental problems in the payday market. As the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, has already pointed out, we do not intend to wait until the Competition Commission has finished its work and have committed to implementing the cap in January 2015.
The Government’s commitment this week sends a strong message to lenders: “Do not wait for the authorities to act, raise your game and start charging and treating your customers fairly now”. We will have a full debate on the government amendments at Third Reading—
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
I thank the Minister for giving way. He made the point about treating customers fairly. I understand that he is making a broader point but I noticed that he was nodding a few minutes ago when I spoke about the potential damage to somebody trying to get a mortgage, having taken out a payday loan. Does he agree that some way should be found of ensuring that specific information is given to those taking out a payday loan so that they do not affect their ability to handle other aspects of their financial affairs?
Lord Newby
I was going to come on to this point but I will do so now. I did not see “Newsnight” but I read about the report in today’s papers. It seems demonstrably unfair. I have two sons in their 20s. I have no idea whether they take out payday loans but I know that at some point in the next six years one or both of them might think of getting a mortgage—if they keep working hard. It does seem demonstrably unfair that someone taking out 50 quid for a payday loan today could be automatically denied a mortgage in six years’ time. If the noble Lord will permit me, I propose to draw that to the attention of the FCA.
There are two elements to this. First, there is the point that the noble Lord made about what might be on the website to point this out. There is also another issue, which is whether it is reasonable for people offering mortgages automatically to deny them to someone who may have taken out a small payday loan and paid it off rapidly. I do not know, for example, whether that rule applies to somebody who has taken out a loan under the traditional method of door-to-door payday-type loans that we had in this country for many decades. I shall draw that to the attention of the FCA.
I was just beginning to say that we will have a full debate on Third Reading, and I can commit to operating, as the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey suggested, on Committee stage rules. Having sat through many debates in your Lordships’ House, I do not think that, even if I said that we were resistant to noble Lords’ proposals, that would make a huge difference to the behaviour of noble Lords. In any event, I am happy to give that assurance now.
Turning to the amendments before us, starting with that tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McFall, the Government share his deep concern about the potential for consumers to be misled by lenders. It is essential that consumers are well informed of the risks before entering into an agreement. However, I believe the noble Lord’s concerns will largely be addressed by the FCA’s proposed rules, or already exist in legislation.
Regulations made under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 in accordance with the consumer credit directive currently require that creditors provide adequate information to enable the consumer to assess whether a proposed credit agreement is suitable to their needs and financial situation. Requirements on lenders to be clear to consumers are also set out in the OFT’s Irresponsible Lending guidance. These requirements will be transposed into binding FCA rules. The noble Lord was worried about guidance; this is being transposed from guidance into rules.
The FCA has also proposed a tough package of measures to restrict how payday lenders can access money from their customers’ bank accounts via the continuous payment authority mechanism on their debit and credit cards. These include limiting the use of CPAs to two attempts, and banning part payment. The FCA is also proposing to turn the guidance around the use of CPAs from the outgoing regulator, the OFT, into binding FCA rules. Several of the provisions set out in the noble Lord’s amendment are therefore directly covered by these proposed rules, including a requirement for lenders to give the debtor a statement of their rights in relation to the CPA, and the ability of a borrower to cancel a CPA at any time.
The Government believe that the provisions set out by the noble Lord and not reflected in FCA rules will not, in practice, serve to improve consumer protections. Requiring lenders to provide additional information to consumers on their legal rights presents a real risk of information overload and confusion for consumers. As the noble Lord said in Committee, no one wants to be swamped by hundreds of pages of dense legal text. It is also important to balance awareness of legal rights with promoting awareness of the Financial Ombudsman Service, the free service to help consumers resolve disputes. Taking a case to court can be too expensive for consumers.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
The issue here is a level playing field for continuous payment authorities, and direct debits and standing orders. There has to be a loud and clear message from the Financial Conduct Authority to banks, which have 30,000 complaints against them at the moment, and to companies, that we cannot tolerate an imbalance between the power and authority of a lender and the debtor, who can be in ignorance about what is happening to their account. If the Minister can assure me that he will send that message to the FCA, which in turn will send out the message that it needs a level playing field, at least that would be a step forward.
Lord Newby
Absolutely, I am very happy to do that. I hope that the rules would send that message very clearly, but I am very happy to reinforce it.
I go back to the terms of the amendments. I am concerned that some of the provisions could make it more difficult for a consumer to cancel an agreement—for example, requiring borrowers to sign for cancellation of a CPA. I am confident that the FCA’s proposals will give consumers control with respect to CPAs and in managing their repayments. I strongly support the noble Lord in seeking to protect consumers using the high-cost credit market and ensuring that they know their rights. However, I believe the objectives of transparency and protections for consumers are already provided for by the new regulatory regime; the FCA has already set out the action that it proposes to take in this area.
I turn to the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey. His proposal would require the FCA to implement a number of rules from the Florida model of payday regulation, including a requirement for a cap on credit. I can give the noble Lord at least some of the assurances that he seeks in terms of the FCA considering the Florida approach to regulating payday lenders very closely, as it decides how to design a cap on the total cost of payday loans for the UK market and make sure that it works effectively here. It will consider rollovers and look, for example, at the experience of Florida with a real-time database.
While I completely support the noble Lord’s desire to learn lessons from other countries’ experience, I have some doubts as to whether it is as straightforward as he thinks to simply import almost an entire regulatory framework from another jurisdiction. The UK has a very different market from other countries, and it is right that the rules governing regulation of payday loans in the UK reflect our own unique national characteristics. The FCA will be charged with doing that, building on the international evidence and examination of the UK market, and drawing on the Competition Commission’s analysis among other things. Therefore, while I share the noble Lord’s commitment to ensuring the UK consumers are protected when they borrow from high-cost lenders, I hope that he will agree that the best way to achieve that is through development of evidence-based rules that are tailored to protect UK consumers. We have a clear action plan to deliver this objective.
The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, raised the question of the content of the amendments and the relationship between the Government, in setting policy in this area, and the FCA—where the Government stop and the FCA begins. I heard very clearly what he said. The exact nature of the amendment that we will debate at Third Reading is currently being formulated, and I shall make sure that his point is very much in the minds not only of Ministers but of officials as they set about that task.
With those assurances about the amendment that we will introduce, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Sharkey
I was struck by the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, that the Government must at some point surely say how the FCA is to arrive at a rate or an amount for a cap and by what criteria the cap should be determined. I am sure that they will want to revisit that whole notion again at Third Reading.
As to Florida, I am encouraged by what the Minister says. I make the overriding point that the Florida system has been operating for 11 years; it is simple, it is easy to understand and it works. What we have here now does not work, is not simple and is not easy to understand—and it costs three times as much as Florida. That is a powerful reason for looking carefully at Florida and assuming that there is something that we can really learn here, no matter the differences between the two jurisdictions. However, I am very grateful for the Government’s decision to cap the total cost of payday loans, and I look forward to a further discussion of the issues at Third Reading under Committee stage rules. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill
Lord Newby Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Spicer
I have enormous respect for the noble Lord, Lord McFall, but I think the idea of legislating to be more responsible—in fact, legislating for human character—is a very dangerous path. It is why I intervened on the question of minimum standards of integrity: you are either honest, or you are not honest. It is quite dangerous to keep loading the statute book with matters which attempt to affect human characteristics. I think that there should be some caution about some of these amendments.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, this is a very large group of amendments dealing with another key aspect of the Government’s reform-namely, how to drive up standards across the banking system. The Government’s amendments in this group, and in the following group, widen the range of firms covered by the reform. They respond to points made in Committee, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, for his welcome for them, but we will deal with them in more detail when we come to the next group.
I would like first to respond to the concern that the Government’s Committee stage amendments did not implement the commission’s recommendations for what it calls the licensing regime. To be completely clear, the Government are committed to implementing the vast majority of the commission’s recommendations on the regulation of individuals in banking, including its recommendations to introduce a licensing regime. The regulators, in their responses to the commission published in October, confirmed that they would do this.
The Government’s amendments in Committee put in place all the essential features of the commission’s licensing regime proposals in Clauses 22 and 23. These clauses give the regulator power to make rules of conduct imposing binding standards on employees and ensure that the regulators can take action when there is any breach of these rules. The relevant provisions would form part of FiSMA and confer powers on the regulators in the normal way.
However, we recognise that this may not be seen as giving the full weight and impetus to the commission’s proposals, so we are looking to see whether we can bring forward at Third Reading amendments which will highlight the proposals more and put beyond doubt the determination which we all share to see real change in this area. In the light of this, the Government are looking to introduce amendments at Third Reading to impose obligations on banks and PRA-regulated investment firms, first, to verify before appointing someone as a senior manager, an employee in a role that could do significant harm to the firm or another role requiring regulatory pre-approval that the person is fit and proper to perform that role in the firm; secondly, to maintain up-to-date lists of such persons which could be made available to the regulators when required; thirdly, to notify the appropriate regulator when they take formal disciplinary action against such persons—formal disciplinary action could include giving a formal written warning, dismissal, suspension or clawing back remuneration; and, fourthly, to notify all such persons of the banking standards rules that apply to them. All these obligations will be regulatory requirements under FiSMA. Failure to comply with the obligations will be a breach of regulatory requirements, and actions could be taken against the bank concerned by the regulators. In addition, deliberately or recklessly submitting a materially false or misleading list of persons to a regulator will be a criminal offence.
The Government will also look at tabling amendments requiring, rather than simply empowering, the regulators to set out those functions for which a bank must do the above. We anticipate that this class will match the category of staff defined in the PCBS report as being those whose actions or behaviour could seriously harm their employer, its reputation or its customers. I hope that when we produce those amendments they will satisfy the concerns addressed by the most reverend Primate.
There are certain detailed respects in which the Government have decided not to follow the recommendations of the commission. These do not change the substance of the impact of the regime, but they will ensure its effectiveness. First, the commission envisages that the licensing regime provisions would entirely replace the regime of regulators, giving pre-approval to people below senior management level. That would mean dropping regulatory pre-approval for all appointments below senior management level, including in areas such as money laundering, with which the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, and others were particularly concerned in Committee.
Lord Lawson of Blaby
Before my noble friend sits down, can he give an undertaking that he will produce the further amendments he proposes to introduce at Third Reading in good time so that we can thoroughly evaluate them and decide whether they go far enough in meeting the commission’s requirements? There has been a tendency recently—I know that a lot of work is involved—to produce complicated amendments at the last minute which do not give noble Lords time to assess them properly.
Lord Newby
I have a great deal of sympathy with what the noble Lord says, and I can give an assurance that we will bring the amendments forward at the earliest possible point. I cannot say what day that will be, and we may of course have different definitions of “giving short notice”, but we will do our best to give the noble Lord several days’ notice. We hope that, as we get towards Third Reading, the number of amendments we bring forward will be much lower than at the previous stage.
Lord Newby
It is not saying a huge amount, but it is saying something, and I hope that because we are talking about a much smaller number of amendments we will be able to concentrate the entire brainpower of the Treasury on them so that we can bring them forward with the maximum possible notice.
Lord Davies of Stamford
Does the noble Lord agree that if we are to make a real difference this time—and he will sense a scepticism about that, which we face in this country and even in this House as a result of the appalling situation that we have had—we will need to emphasise, and really substantially emphasise, the issue of personal responsibility? Would it not in that context be necessary that individuals in this country should in future be subject to fines for regulatory breaches, as happens elsewhere?
Lord Newby
My Lords, that is the key focus of the senior managers regime—that, for the first time, senior managers and their banks will have to tell the regulators what the specific responsibilities of those people are, and we are introducing enhanced penalties if people do not stick to those responsibilities and break the rules. I think that we are indeed doing what the noble Lord requires us to do. I hope that when the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, and the most reverend Primate see our amendments, they will feel that we have done everything we can to meet their requirements.
Amendment 21, proposed by the noble Lords, Lord Eatwell and Lord Tunnicliffe, is an amendment which we saw in Committee. As I explained on that occasion, it would really just rename the existing approved persons regime as a “licensed” persons regime. The only extra feature in the proposal is for annual validation of competence by the regulator. This would have the effect of increasing the number of approved person applications from around 30,000 to around 150,000 a year. This would mean an unnecessary and costly extra burden on firms and regulators.
The Official Opposition’s amendment would not deliver the real reforms proposed by the parliamentary commission, which Clauses 14 to 26 of the Bill deliver and which we will enhance. It would just add to regulatory burdens without producing any real improvement in standards of conduct in the industry. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lords, Lord Eatwell, will agree to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, I was intrigued by the proposals which the Minister suggests will be brought forward at Third Reading and I look forward to having the opportunity to see them—perhaps in good time—before we have to debate them.
The key issue in Amendment 21 is that of qualification: professional qualification, minimum thresholds of competence and continuous professional development. These are fundamental to any serious professional standards and are vital if we are to have in the future the sort of people who can deliver a banking industry of which we in Britain can once again be proud.
I should make it clear that Amendment 21 is not in any way contrary to Amendments 50 and 51 by the commission; it is complementary. It adds to the overall structure of the requirements to be met by those who seek to pursue a banking profession. It is that word “profession” which we regard as central. It is no accident that we have labelled our amendment “Professional standards”. That is what this amendment seeks and that is what I believe it would achieve in addition to, and complementary to, the amendments by the commission and, as I hear it, the endeavours by the Government to develop a framework of rules which ensure that standards are met. The professional standards must be the bedrock. That is why I have moved Amendment 21 and why I wish to test the opinion of the House.
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
My Lords, this group of amendments, and similar amendments in the previous group, respond to concerns expressed in Committee that the scope of the reform of the senior managers and banking standards regime should be extended beyond ordinary banks to cover what are known, in common parlance, as investment banks. A number of noble Lords were concerned about this point and I undertook to relay the feelings of the House to ministerial colleagues. These amendments are the result.
The definition that we propose is that of the UK investment firms that are regulated by the PRA as well as by the FCA. This captures all those investment firms the activities of which—above all, substantial wholesale market dealing in securities as proprietary traders—are systemically important. These are the most important City firms, and consequently would be treated by the senior managers and standards regime in the same way that banks are. It therefore excludes all investment firms that are regulated solely by the FCA.
The noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, tabled an amendment to a different part of the legislation that would have used the existing definition of “investment firm” in FiSMA. This would have encompassed investment firms solely regulated by the FCA. As explained in Committee, that would cover a wide range of ordinary investment firms—several thousand, in fact. This would include firms far outside what most people would think of as investment banks. The Government have shared this definition with the members of the PCBS and are hopeful that the scope now captures those firms that the PCBS had in mind.
Noble Lords who have had the opportunity to read the paper placed in the Library yesterday know, as the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, has pointed out, that it covers only nine further firms. They also know that it covers the investment banks that everybody has heard of and would expect to see covered. The small number may be surprising, but the reason for that is simple. Many firms that would be thought of as investment banks will already have a deposit-taking permission, so they will already be covered by the definition in Clause 24. That definition is already broad enough to catch all retail and wholesale banks, whether ring-fenced or not. It covers any UK institution which has the permission to take deposits. It does not cover big City institutions which are not deposit-taking businesses. These amendments will bring them into the scope of the senior managers and banking standards regime. I beg to move.
Lord Newby
Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
My Lords, I am pleased to associate my name with all five amendments in this group, but I also want to speak to some extent about the FCA note which appeared at about 9 o’clock yesterday evening—typically late in the day, not just literally, as regards the progress of this Bill. I reiterate the point made by my noble friend Lord Brennan that the Government have provided no grounds for reassurance that their amendments adequately deal with the serious issue of anti-money laundering. The fact that the Minister’s promised letter of comfort has not materialised demonstrates that the House should be concerned by the absence of any coalition assurances on this crucial issue. I am not sure whether the FCA note is intended to be in place of such a letter, and I will come on to that later. However, I said in Committee that not only were the Government naive to assume that the amendments we tabled then were unnecessary, they were also complacent. I very much regret to say that the failure to produce the letter setting out the Government’s position which my noble friend Lord Brennan was promised clearly suggests that that complacency remains intact.
We also heard in more general terms in Committee about the devastating human cost caused by the banks’ failure to comply with anti-money-laundering laws. That has not been mentioned this evening but it bears repeating: it is not just a question of what happens in relation to the financial sector in this country but also of money laundering that often amounts to the state looting of developing countries’ aid and haemorrhages billions of pounds from their national budgets, trapping millions of the world’s poorest people in extreme poverty. However, as mentioned in the previous debate, it also threatens the economy of the UK. The integrity of our financial system is hugely compromised by banks failing to prevent access by the worst types of criminals from around the world, whether they be corrupt dictators, drug smugglers, arms dealers or terrorists, as other noble Lords have said. This shows that the stakes could not be higher. I wish that that were reflected in action taken by the Government to counter this problem. It makes their lack of willingness to deal meaningfully with the issue quite unfathomable. Their continuing naivety is potentially dangerous. I apologise for using the word “naivety” again but I feel that I have to do so.
As the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, rightly noted in Committee, should there be any doubt, following the Minister’s letter, about whether the Government’s amendments adequately dealt with money laundering or not, the House should err on the side of caution and choose the alternative amendments. We now know that no such letter has materialised. My noble friends and I have taken great care to move new and refined amendments which reflect the extensive and helpful debate in Committee. In stark contrast the Government have not even offered the explanation they promised. This should leave the House in no doubt as to which set of amendments should be favoured.
I turn to the note from the Financial Conduct Authority that appeared yesterday evening. My noble friend Lord Eatwell said in his opening remarks on Amendment 3, I think, that everything seemed to be done at the last minute as far as the Bill is concerned, and that has been very much the pattern since it first appeared. It is unhelpful in terms of enabling noble Lords to respond meaningfully to new information or, indeed, to draft amendments. It is not clear whether the FCA note on its anti-money-laundering supervision and the new senior managers regime proposed in the Bill is in lieu of the Minister’s letter to my noble friend Lord Brennan, as I said earlier. That letter was intended to outline why the latter’s amendments seeking the explicit inclusion of anti-money laundering in the new senior persons regime and other personal liability mechanisms were unnecessary because the government amendments implicitly did this. However, I submit that the note does not achieve what is required; namely, a guarantee that the FCA will include anti-money-laundering compliance as a key risk and make every bank name a senior banker with personal responsibility for it.
The FCA’s note is largely about what it does and has done, and even refers to what the FSA did. There are just two paragraphs at the end which focus on the proposed new senior managers regime. As the Bill stands, this could give the FCA the power to hold named, individual senior bankers accountable for failures to uphold key standards and risks. However, it seems to me there is a loophole in the Bill which means that it will be left open to the FCA’s interpretation as to whether it uses this power and insists that anti-money-laundering compliance should be one of the issues covered. The note does not indicate that the FCA will include this. It uses terminology such as, “We will consult”, “This will allow firms”, and it, “will help regulators”. These are key phrases in any document but I suggest that they are weak, possibly ambiguous and certainly open to interpretation. I believe that the word “consult” simply means that the outcome is by definition not certain. We should require firms to do something, which is a stronger word than “allowing” them to do something.
My next example is fundamental to the way we deal with anti-money laundering. Instead of the phrase, “for example, anti-money laundering systems”, we should state unequivocally, “including anti-money-laundering systems”. The language that is used is permissive and uncertain rather than being mandatory, which is what I and the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, seek to achieve with these amendments. The content of the note is disappointing and it would be helpful to have clarification of whether it is provided in lieu of the Minister’s letter.
I believe that anti-money laundering compliance should be included as one of the areas of responsibility that is allocated to a named senior banker under the new senior persons regime, is written into the banking standards rules to which staff at banks will have to adhere, and should be one of the conditions of the new remuneration code which makes deferred pay and bonuses contingent on upholding standards. Will the Minister, on behalf of the coalition, ensure that these important requirements are included?
Lord Newby
My Lords, we are dealing here with an issue that everybody realises is an extremely important one in terms of the way banks behave and the way that they are seen to behave. As the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, pointed out, the importance of money-laundering in financing terrorism has given it an added twist.
These amendments are an expanded version of an amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, in Committee. Since then, my colleagues in the Treasury have met the noble Lord and explained their view of his original amendment. I hope I can convince the House that the Government’s approach meets the requirements which the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, seeks to impose. These amendments would expand the scope of the senior managers regime to include all persons who are responsible for ensuring that a firm complies with specific obligations under the criminal law, irrespective of the level in the organisation at which they work.
No one doubts the importance of robust action to tackle financial crime such as money-laundering, but I can assure your Lordships that these amendments are not necessary to ensure that financial crime is adequately addressed under the reforms that the Government are bringing forward.
These amendments would bring subordinate staff with relevant responsibilities within the scope of the senior managers regime. That could lead to confusion at least and is contrary to the PCBS recommendation to narrow the senior persons regime to very senior people, and parts of the regime, such as the reversal of the burden of proof, make sense only when applied at the senior level. It is not necessary to bring subordinate staff with specific responsibilities for financial crime within the senior managers regime in order to ensure that these staff are subject to enhanced regulatory scrutiny. It will still be possible for the FCA to ensure that appointments of persons to be money-laundering reporting officers, for example, will be subject to prior regulatory scrutiny and approval under the approved persons regime, if that is considered appropriate, and then subject to rules and standards applicable to their role. This is because the approved persons regime is being retained for financial services firms that are not banks. It is also being retained within the banking sector for appointments below senior management level. The Government have always considered this necessary as there may be critical roles below senior management level with important responsibilities for consumer protection, market integrity or preventing financial crime where prior regulatory scrutiny of appointments remains necessary.
In addition, of course, the regulators will have the ability to make rules of conduct for bank employees who are not approved persons. This will mean that rules of conduct can be applied to staff with more limited roles in preventing financial crime in banks, as well as to approved persons and senior managers.
There is also no need to refer explicitly to breaches of the criminal law to bring senior managers with relevant responsibilities within the scope of the senior managers regime. Under the Government’s proposals, a function can be designated as a senior manager function if a person holding it would be responsible for aspects of the bank’s business that could involve serious consequences for the bank, or for business or other interests in the United Kingdom. There is no doubt that a serious breach of criminal law could have serious consequences for the firm as well as for other people. So senior managers in this area would be covered by this new regime.
The noble Lord, Lord Brennan, asked me three specific questions and for assurances on those points. First, he asked me to confirm that there was no reason to doubt the reliability of the conclusions of the FCA paper. There is no reason to doubt them. Secondly, he asked whether the FCA was properly financed to undertake the level of activity required for it effectively to fulfil its responsibilities under the rules on money-laundering. The FCA budget, as he will know, is funded by the sector as a whole. The FCA is therefore unconstrained, in practical terms, regarding its budget. It is for the authority to determine the resources that it thinks it requires and it can then get them. So no budgetary constraint is imposed on the FCA which reduces its ability to employ as many staff as it feels it wants in this area. Thirdly, he asked whether the FCA represented government policy. The FCA does represent government policy. I am sorry that the note was transmitted later than would ideally have been the case but that in no way undermines its significance as a definitive statement of government policy in this area.
I recognise the concern that noble Lords had in Committee, and still have, in this area. It may be of some minor comfort to know that since Committee I have had a meeting with one of the senior relevant staff at one of the largest UK banks to discuss whether, in its opinion, the FCA was pursuing money-laundering with greater rigour than had been the case in the past. The bank said that the FCA was doing so. It also said that the bank itself had recognised that it simply had to give greater priority to this area.
Two things must happen if we are to achieve the level of compliance that the noble Lord would like. The first, which the noble Lord has concentrated on now, is that the FCA has to do its job properly. As I say, it is putting more resources in and is being, as it states in its list of objectives, more intensive and intrusive. Secondly, as we have discussed in relation to a number of other areas, the banks have to accept that they must adopt a zero tolerance approach to money-laundering. It is clear from the evidence which the parliamentary commission received, and from much other evidence, that this has not always been the case. I believe that the banks are giving a priority to this that they have not done in the past. Is it adequate? It is a great improvement, but it will take some time to be fully clear about whether it is adequate. However there has been a sea change which has been effected in part by the regulatory regime and in part by the pressure put on the banks by a whole range of external stakeholders, not least your Lordships’ House.
The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, suggested that a further letter might be of help between now and Third Reading to confirm the exact position. I am happy to agree to provide a letter in the terms that the noble Lord suggested. With that assurance, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, will feel able not to press his amendments.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
Perhaps the noble Lord could clarify something. He made it absolutely clear that the FCA note represents government policy. It therefore seems strange that that policy is allowed to be as—shall I say?—ambiguously worded as the FCA note is. It is of concern that it is left that way. Will he commit to write to the FCA before Third Reading to ask it to make anti-money-laundering explicit in the personal responsibility requirements of senior bankers?
Lord Newby
My Lords, I will cover that issue in my letter. I am sorry that the noble Lord thinks that the FCA note is ambiguous, because the fact that it is giving greater priority to this issue and being more intrusive and energetic should give him some comfort. However, as I say, I will write to him.
Lord Brennan
My Lords, first, I had a meeting with officials from the Treasury, the content of which was, in short form, declaratory and, in long form, advisory. It was declaratory when I explained to them that I and my colleagues with whom I am working on this problem were convinced that these amendments were necessary and that the Treasury officials and the Home Office man who was there should revise their thinking accordingly. So they informed our side of the argument of nothing new, except that they felt that they were right. The advisory part of the meeting related to a simple proposition that took a little time to adumbrate. I invited them—both officials were, I am sure, competent young government lawyers—to take advice on this issue and on the terms of the offence, which we shall turn to shortly, from senior Treasury counsel who would be independent and objective as to whether the government views on the strength of the Bill on this point were correct. I do not know whether that has been done. The fact is that the meeting took place but was not productive.
There are times in legislative life when those who see cannot persuade the blind where they are going. In Amendment 30 no attempt is made to disadvantage junior staff and every attempt is made to ensure that senior staff are not allowed to use the fault of junior staff as an excuse for their own responsibility. That is what that amendment is plainly directed at. It makes the senior management’s job crystal clear. It is necessary to consider what the Minister has said in reply and, for the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Flight
My Lords, these amendments have the support of the Law Society of England and Wales as well as that of Scotland—certainly for Amendment 27. The issue is pretty clear. The objective is to ensure that the provision of legal advice is not to be construed as taking decisions or participating in the taking of decisions, and for situations where solicitors or other legally qualified professionals frequently give advice on decisions which a bank or other institution may take. They do not make the decisions, but purely advise on legal issues where the Bill is currently unclear as to whether advising would be included in,
“participating in the taking of decisions”.
Amendment 27 seeks to clarify the position.
There is an irony here in that, as I understand it, Clause 15 creates a broad definition of a senior management function, and the term,
“participating in the taking of decisions”,
as currently drafted will capture legal advice. This could have some perverse results and disproportionate consequences, and a danger that all legal advice is considered as participating in decision-making. If that were to be the case, all banks’ lawyers might need authorisation from the Financial Conduct Authority to give legal advice, whereas of course they are already regulated through the Solicitors Regulation Authority.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I understand the concern of the noble and learned Lord and that of the Law Society about the position of lawyers under the new regime, and I hope very much to be able to reassure him.
Amendment 27 would amend Clause 15, which inserts new Section 59ZA into FiSMA, which provides the definition of a senior management function. A person becomes a senior manager only if they perform a function which has been designated by a regulator as a senior management function and have been approved to perform that function by the appropriate regulator on the application of the authorised person; that is, the firm concerned. A senior management function is one that will,
“require the person performing it to be responsible for managing one or more aspects of the authorised person’s affairs”,
and that,
“those aspects involve, or might involve, a risk of serious consequences—
(i) for the authorised person, or
(ii) for business or other interests in the United Kingdom”.
It is therefore highly unlikely that the regulators would designate being a legal adviser as a senior management function simply because giving advice does not constitute management as set out in the definition of senior management.
Clause 22 inserts new Section 64A into FiSMA, which allows the regulators to make rules of conduct for approved persons, including senior managers, and for bank employees. This implements the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards recommendation regarding the introduction of a “licensing regime”. This broadens the population who can be subject to the regulators’ rules, which could for example now apply to an in-house legal adviser in the capacity of an employee. In addition, the regulators already have a broad power to require firms to provide information, as set out in Section 165 of FiSMA. However, the regulators cannot make rules which would trump the protection of legal privilege. Section 413 of FiSMA provides expressly that no power under the Act can be used to require the disclosure of “protected items”. These are defined in terms which are materially identical to the definition of items subject to legal professional privilege in Section 10 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. Consequently, FiSMA already prevents the regulator from obtaining legally privileged material.
The noble and learned Lord’s amendment would also introduce a protection against the disclosure to the regulator of “excluded materials” as defined in Section 11 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. This includes personal records generated in the course of business and held in confidence, human tissue and journalistic material held in confidence. Clearly, the regulators would not request some of the categories of material included in this section. However, in relation to confidential information such as that compiled during the course of business, it might be appropriate, and indeed sometimes essential, for the regulators to receive it. However, FiSMA itself provides strong protection for confidential information received by the regulators when carrying out their regulatory functions. Section 348 of FiSMA prevents any such information being disclosed to a third party except for very narrow purposes. Further, where any such information constitutes personal data, it would be subject to the Data Protection Act.
The noble and learned Lord asked whether Section 413 of FiSMA covers communications as well as documents. I can give him that assurance. The section is not limited to documents, so regulators cannot require the disclosure of privileged communications. With those reassurances, I hope that the noble and learned Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Mackay of Drumadoon
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving a very clear and detailed explanation of the Government’s position in regard to these very complicated statutory provisions. I always think that when you start running out of enough section numbers so that you have to add letters to them, it makes the construction of the contents of those sections much more complicated than it might otherwise be. For these reasons, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Archbishop of Canterbury
I have already spoken to the amendment standing in my name. The members of the commission are delighted that the Government are broadly finding agreement with their recommendations, and on all the areas on which the Minister spoke we hope and expect that the government amendments at Third Reading will reflect closely the assurances that we have been given. To ensure that we get this right, we re-emphasise the need to see the amendments as early as possible and reserve the possibility, if we are not content and feel that they do not reflect what has been said, of returning to them at Third Reading. If I have those assurances, I will be happy to withdraw the amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I start by saying that we strongly agree with the last point made by the noble Lord; people who fall below the standards of conduct required of them should be held effectively to account. We have been discussing a number of ways in which the Bill will help to bring this about. I also appreciate the concerns of the noble Lord that we should take stock at some point and review whether the new system of rules of conduct has delivered an improvement in behaviour among bank staff—the kind of improvement that we are all agreed we want to see. I am not sure, however, that we need legislation to provide for that.
In the first place, the regulators themselves will keep their rules under review in the normal way. There will be no difference in that respect between rules of conduct for bank staff and any other rules that they make. They will similarly review their policy statements about taking action for misconduct under Section 66, and keep their policies and practices under review too. I expect also that the Treasury Committee in the other place, and possibly also the Economic Affairs Committee in your Lordships’ House, will want to keep such matters under review. Nothing, of course, stops the Treasury from commissioning reviews of these and other matters, if it thinks it appropriate. All these reviews can range as widely or as narrowly as is appropriate. They can cover the full range of matters in FiSMA or other relevant legislation—and any other matter as well.
I comment briefly on the point that the noble Lord made about the work of Sir Richard Lambert. We are putting great faith in Sir Richard Lambert to produce worthwhile movement. Having worked with him on other things in the past, I have considerable confidence in him to do that. However, we will have to see how that unfolds. It requires the banking industry to accept the need to take measures that it has not in the past. Sometimes that has been difficult for it. On the amendment, we do not need a mandate for such a specific review in the Bill itself.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, given the form of the regulators in the past, the Minister’s words that the regulators will keep the review under review in the normal way are not inspiring. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Lawson of Blaby
I make one point of clarification on what my noble friend said. I apologise for my cold. It is absolutely necessary that the definition of “bank” should be extended in the way that the noble Lord has said. I am very pleased with that. He gave us a reason that these investment banks, or these investment institutions, might be a potential liability for the taxpayer. I hope he will withdraw that. It is very important that there is no taxpayer liability there. The reason we wanted it expanded is that we were concerned about banking standards, which was what this commission was all about: banking standards and culture. That is why it is necessary that there should be this regime for these banks, not because there might be a taxpayer risk or bailout.
Economy: Women’s Incomes
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Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, departments take full account of the impact of their policies on women. In spending round 2013, the Government published an analysis of how their decisions impacted on different groups, including by gender. This was a first for any UK Government. The economy is growing, the deficit is falling and jobs are being created. The only sustainable way to raise living standards for both men and women is to stick to our current economic plans.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. I have to say that it does not coincide with the information that I have, which was produced by the House of Commons Library. Its analysis tells us that, of the £14.4 billion George Osborne has raised through additional net direct tax and benefit changes, about £11.4 billion—79%—is coming from women. This includes low-paid new mums, who have lost nearly £3,000 in support during their pregnancy and their baby’s first year; couples with children, who have lost 9.7% of their disposable income; and single mothers, who have lost the most—15.6%? Does the noble Lord think that that is fair, and how does it reflect, “We are all in this together”?
Lord Newby
My Lords, I think that those figures are in some respects significantly misleading. For example, 98% of all child benefit goes to women, but it is the whole household that benefits. The single biggest improvement in the position of women under this Government has come from the fact that there are 450,000 women now in work who were not in work in 2010. This is as a result of the Government’s economic policies, which have kept interest rates down so that we have not seen the high unemployment peak that we had in the previous recession.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)
My Lords, with women three times more likely than men to be in part-time work, does the Minister agree that a gender divide still exists in the labour market that forces many women to compromise their careers in order to care for children, and that this inequality can best be addressed by further increasing the provision of affordable childcare?
Lord Newby
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. The Government are increasing the amount of free childcare that they are providing, most noticeably from the age of two, for 15 weeks a year, in addition to the existing provision for three and four year-olds. I agree with my noble friend’s comments about pay. It is noticeable, however, that, on most measures, the pay gap between men and women has fallen by between 0.5% and 1% in the past year.
Baroness Gould of Potternewton (Lab)
My Lords, the Government are using the question of women’s employment rather incorrectly. They must stop hiding behind that. Rather, I should like an explanation of why the figures cited by my noble friend are misleading and why the House of Commons Library has got them wrong.
Lord Newby
My Lords, as I said, one of the big elements in that overall figure is child benefit, which goes to women. It is paid to women in 98% of cases, but child benefit affects the whole family. Therefore, to include child benefit as a benefit for women, as it were, is completely misleading; it is a benefit for the whole household.
Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)
My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that members of the minority community who are also British citizens are tending to do worse in the pay structure? Is he also aware that about 75% of Pakistani and Bangladeshi women are not a factor at all in the economic circumstances of Britain? How does that square with the so well supported and so beloved economic strategy of this Government?
Lord Newby
My Lords, we would like to see—as no doubt the noble Baroness would—a higher proportion of women from those communities being economically active. We are seeing that a much higher proportion of young women in those communities are economically active than their parents were. However, one of the positive things about the rise in the number of women in employment, which I mentioned earlier, is that there is now a higher proportion of women in the labour market than ever before. That is very much to the benefit of women overall.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister realise that proposals regarding economic policy are to be included in the paper to be produced by the Scottish Government tomorrow? Since the Minister’s noble friend was unable to answer my supplementary question, could he take some advice from the Advocate-General and answer it? A Government can call something a White Paper only if they have the power to implement what is included—and, if the Scottish people were, unfortunately, to vote yes, the Scottish Government’s proposals could be implemented only with the full agreement of the rest of the United Kingdom.
Lord Newby
My Lords, perhaps I could refer the noble Lord to the speech made by my noble and learned friend at Aberdeen University last Friday, which very adequately answers his question.
Age-Related Payments Regulations 2013
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Lord Newby
That the draft regulations laid before the House on 21 October be approved.
Relevant document: 11th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 12 November.
Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill
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Lord Newby
That the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order:
Clauses 1 to 7, Schedule 1, Clauses 8 to 13, Schedule 2, Clauses 14 to 26, Schedule 3, Clauses 27 to 31, Schedule 4, Clauses 32 to 69, Schedule 5, Clauses 70 to 106, Schedules 6 and 7, Clauses 107 to 114, Schedule 8, Clauses 115 to 120, Schedule 9, Clause 121, Schedule 10, Clauses 122 to 127.