Pension Schemes Bill
Lord Newby Excerpts(9 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Newby
“Public service pension schemes
In Schedule 5 to the Public Service Pensions Act 2013 (meaning of “existing scheme”), in paragraph 1, after “1972” insert “other than a scheme which relates to staff of the Secret Intelligence Service or Security Service”.”
Lord Newby
My Lords, these two amendments make a small change to the Public Service Pensions Act 2013 in respect of the pension schemes of the Security Service and Secret Intelligence Service to put beyond doubt the application of that Act to those agencies.
The first amendment introduces a proposed new clause after Clause 79 to ensure that the pension schemes of the Secret Intelligence Service and the Security Service are not included in the list of existing schemes in Schedule 5 to the Public Service Pensions Act. The amendments are necessary because since the Act was passed in 2013 new information suggests that the pension schemes for those security services might fall within the Act’s definition of an “existing scheme”. As such, they would be subject to the requirements set out in the Act that their current pension schemes should close on 1 April this year, and a new scheme, reformed in line with the Government’s principles on public service pension reform, should take its place.
However, at the time the Act was drafted it was thought that the security agencies’ pension schemes fell within a different category—that of public body pension schemes. The requirements here are different. Instead of a closing date of April this year, the Government have set out an expectation that public body pension schemes will reform by April 2018. Consistent with our original understanding of their status, the Government have been working with the security agencies to ensure that a new reformed pension scheme is in place ahead of 2018.
As I am sure noble Lords will understand, it would not be possible at this late stage for the Government to change course and put in place a new pension scheme for the security agencies in time for this April. It would also not reflect the agreement the Government have with the agencies and their staff to keep the existing scheme open until 2016. As things stand, without introducing a new pension scheme in April this year, there is a significant risk that the agencies’ staff would be left without any lawful pension provision after this date. That is obviously a situation that the Government could not allow to happen. The amendments I propose today will prevent any risk that the security agencies’ pension scheme will be forced to close on 1 April 2015 and will allow the Government to continue to work with the security agencies to put in place a new reformed scheme by the original deadline. The amendments do nothing more than this and will have no wider bearing on any other public service or public sector pension scheme. The second amendment enables the new clause to come into force on Royal Assent. This is to ensure that it is in force before 1 April 2015, so the risk of forced closure never manifests itself. I beg to move.
Lord Bradley
I am grateful for the explanation from the Minister and I can assure him that I have no intention of opposing changes to the secret service’s or the security services’ pension schemes.
Lord Newby
My Lords, this amendment relates to the funding of the Pension Wise service. It requires that financial assistance given to the service and to Citizens Advice is sufficient to allow them to discharge their function of giving pensions advice. The Government wholeheartedly agree that it is vital that delivery partners are funded appropriately to discharge the function of giving pensions advice. As I made clear in Committee, there are already provisions in the Bill that effectively safeguard that. The Bill places the Treasury under a legal duty to take appropriate steps to ensure that people can access pensions guidance. Implicit in this duty is a requirement to ensure that delivery partners are appropriately funded to deliver their element of the service.
The noble Lord, Lord Bradley, asked a number of questions, in Committee and again today, about both funding and process. I hope that I can reassure him on them.
On funding, I am happy to reconfirm that all delivery partners, especially those such as the Pensions Advisory Service and the three Citizens Advice bodies in the UK, which will rely wholly or largely on government funding, will be appropriately funded to allow them to deliver pensions guidance, and that that funding will be ring-fenced for that purpose. There is no question that Citizens Advice core grant funding from local or national government will be expected to be diverted from other activities to fund pensions guidance. Citizens Advice is very experienced in effectively managing multiple ring-fenced funding streams.
I can also reassure noble Lords that grant agreements are already in place to ensure that delivery partners are appropriately funded in the current set-up phase. That funding is coming out of a £20 million development fund that the Chancellor announced in the Budget, of which a £10 million advance was approved by Parliament last July to cover preparatory work on the service. Funding agreements for the live running phase are currently being discussed and agreed with the delivery partners.
In its guidance publication on 12 January, the Treasury set out further detail on the costs of preparing to deliver the guidance service in the current financial year, and an initial estimate of how much it will cost—namely, £35 million. Both in Committee and today, the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, asked me to give a more detailed description of what assumptions have been made to come up with that figure, because there is a wide degree of uncertainty as to how many people will take it up. I am sure that he will understand why the Government are reluctant to publish a central assumption, as it were. Inevitably, it will be less than 100% accurate and will raise all kinds of questions about whether it should be higher or lower than the figure given. All that I can say today is that we have talked to the potential guidance providers and other stakeholders, and formed a range of likely outcomes, which has informed that figure of £35 million.
I can confirm that the majority of the funding estimate will go to delivery partners. We are continuing to take on board information from delivery partners and others. I can confirm what I said in Committee, which is that we will confirm a levy figure in March, which we expect to be £35 million, or very similar. If the Treasury finds that more resource is needed, it will provide that resource in the forthcoming financial year and claw it back from the industry in subsequent years. So there is flexibility to ensure that we can meet demand once we see how the scheme is going.
The noble Lord and other noble Lords asked a number of detailed questions about citizens advice bureaux’s readiness for 6 April. I hope that I can reassure them on progress to date. First, delivery partners have had clarity on FCA standards since they were published last November. That provides the framework for the guidance against which their compliance will be measured. I can assure him that delivery partners and the Treasury have been working hard to ensure that the service will fully comply with those standards.
The noble Lord asked about the 44 participating bureaux. The 44 bureaux, the names of which have already been published, are the first tranche of participating bureaux. We will not limit the number to 44 across the country as a whole; that is the first tranche, and a further wave will be announced shortly. So there will be significantly more than 44, and we are still in discussion with Citizens Advice about exactly what that number should be.
Recruitment is under way, and there has been a very encouraging response so far. I understand the concerns of the noble Lord and others about training and whether, at the end of it, people will be able to give high-quality advice. The development of that programme is well under way and it will be accredited by the Chartered Insurance Institute, which is an extremely well respected professional standards body. All trained guidance specialists must have undergone training and passed the assessment at the end of the training programme.
Lord Bradley
Is the Minister confirming that they will be accredited with that qualification before the service goes live at the beginning of April?
Lord Newby
My Lords, that is the intention. I was about to say that although not every person recruited by Citizens Advice will be an expert in the field, it is recruiting at two levels, including those with relevant experience. It would, therefore, be a complete mistake to gain the impression that the Citizens Advice workforce will be made up of well meaning people who have just had a bit of training. Some will have had a small amount of training but others will be seasoned experts in the field. That has been borne out to a certain extent by the people coming forward so far.
Lord Bradley
On that point, will the customer be able to choose whether they have a specialist adviser or someone with a very small amount of training on this issue?
Lord Newby
No, I do not think that that is the intention. We believe, and are confident, that everybody will have been trained to a level at which they can give appropriate advice. It would be completely impractical and unnecessary to proceed as the noble Lord suggests. I can assure him that the Treasury is working extremely closely and collaboratively with the guidance bodies to design the service and ensure that we are ready for April. Are we confident that we will be? Yes, we are.
The noble Lord asked a number of other questions. Could I confirm that we expect a typical advice session to last 45 minutes? Yes, we can. He asked whether people would be able to go back and get a second bite of the cherry. We have already said that that will be possible, although we hope that if people do not have all the guidance they need, directing them to the website will deal with a lot of second-order issues.
The noble Lord outlined his understanding of the complaints procedure. I believe that the way he outlined it is correct. If not, I will write to him—I need to read it first.
The noble Lord also asked about operating hours, which are still being finalised.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)
Would the Minister mind expanding a little on this? He, or certainly his colleagues, will know that as a result of cuts by the MoJ, CABs have lost 60% of their funding that has been going into legal aid. To my knowledge, this means that CABs have substantially restricted their hours, they are often unavailable on the telephone and they are offering a very reduced and spartan service, particularly in rural areas, where, at the same time, individuals cannot access through broadband any of the websites that TPAS and so on may go on to produce. Is the Minister saying that there will be enough funding, over and beyond paying the CAB advisers £18,000 a year or whatever after their training, to keep CABs open at full hours, rather than simply to mount the skeleton service that is all they can afford at the moment, thanks to the cuts by his colleague, the right honourable Chris Grayling?
Lord Newby
My Lords, I am saying that we will designate a very significant number of CAB offices to provide this service, and the funding that we will provide will allow them to meet this additional requirement without having to draw on any of their existing funds. We are not planning to operate this service through every CAB, so I cannot say how it will affect any particular one. However, the key principle under which we are operating is that the CABs which participate in giving this advice will have the funding to do it without drawing on any of their other resources.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Is the Minister saying therefore that the CABs will be open all the hours necessary for pensions advice, but will still be unavailable to help people who are at risk of losing their home because they have housing benefit problems?
Lord Newby
My Lords, all I am saying about operating hours is that they are still being finalised.
The noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, expressed some concerns that other noble Lords have expressed, in particular that CAB volunteers might be expected to do this onerous job. I assure her that everybody who will be providing the guidance will be paid, so it is a rather more formal arrangement than that.
The noble Lord, Lord Flight, talked of the possibility of people being given inappropriate advice. It is not a question of the guidance being like advice, to the extent of saying at the end of the session, “You should therefore do X rather than Y”. The purpose of the guidance is to set out the options so that people can make informed choices. He referred to people hanging in mid-air because they would not know what to do next. We hope that the combination of the guidance session and the information on the website will be extremely helpful. As we discussed earlier, the companies with which an individual already has a pension pot will have significant responsibilities to ensure that their existing policyholder takes all relevant circumstances into account. To the extent that the companies believe that the policyholder may be going off the rails, they are able to point this out to them and, we hope, guide them on to a more sensible path.
Perhaps I may conclude by quoting Gillian Guy, the CEO of Citizens Advice, speaking on BBC Radio 4’s “Money Box” last Saturday. She said:
“We are absolutely confident that our service will be up and running and … we’re really pleased that we have a role in this pensions guidance delivery, because it actually plays to our strengths in helping people understand the options that are open to them and setting them on a path where they can take decisions in a well-informed place”.
We agree. I hope that the noble Lord will feel reassured that the Government will provide sufficient funding to delivery partners to provide the guidance service and therefore feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Bradley
Again, I am grateful to the Minister for his response to the many questions that I and other noble Lords have raised today. I must admit that I am not particularly reassured by the responses. I am still concerned about the level of qualification and training of the staff in CABs. This is no reflection on the CAB which, as the noble Baroness said, does invaluable work. When I was a Member of Parliament, my local CABs were superb in giving supporting advice to my constituents, many of whom I referred directly to them. This is no comment on the integrity or the quality of the CAB. I just worry that by moving into this specialist area, it will not have the level of expertise to give the proper guidance to ensure that people make the right decisions about their retirement income.
Again, while I cast absolutely no criticism on the CAB, I worry that the haste in which the service is to be rolled out—in barely eight weeks’ time—will not ensure that the bureaux are able to deliver as comprehensively as will be required, or that they have the level of staff in the 44 offices in the first instance to respond to the demand. In regard to the second tranche which the Minister mentioned, the CAB website refers to “a small number” of additional officers. Again, that concerns me when it comes to the national coverage of the scheme—there will not be a sufficient number of accessible officers to meet the demand.
I recognise why the Minister is not able to give me a take-up figure, but surely in determining what the demand will be on 7 April, some estimate must have been made. Again, I worry that if that has not been done in a very effective way, people may have to wait weeks or even months for an appointment with one of the advisers to get advice, by which time they may have taken a decision that is not in their best interest. The underpinning of the freedoms and flexibilities will quickly fall into disrepute because of the lack of opportunity to get an appointment and for the guidance to be in an accessible place at the time the person needs that help and advice.
A huge number of issues have been raised this afternoon across this House that still need to be properly addressed. I fear—I mentioned it as background—the problems of the 1980s; I sincerely hope that the guidance service will not quickly fall into disrepute due to lack of preparation, lack of staff qualifications and lack of coverage to meet the demands made of it. I make all those points to ensure that they are recognised by this House. We will monitor the situation closely, as will the public and outside bodies. Suffice it to say that that is what we will do. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Bradley
I will be brief as I cannot better the brilliant analyses of my noble friends Lady Hollis and Lady Drake on the interrelationship between the pension freedoms, income-related benefits and care costs. The only point I want to emphasise relates to our previous amendment on the guidance guarantee—namely, it is critical that there is absolute certainty and clarity of policy in this area to ensure that those who are giving guidance to customers are consistent and clear about what that guidance should be. I look forward to the Minister’s detailed response to the analyses of my two noble friends.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I hope that noble Lords will forgive me if I concentrate on the amendment. First, the Government believe it is right that the content of the guidance session is set out in FCA standards which are unfettered by a restrictive legislative framework.
The FCA consulted on these standards last year and published its responding policy statement, including a near-final version of the guidance standards, in November last year.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
I apologise for interrupting the noble Lord quite so quickly, but the amendment was not meant to refer solely and exclusively to face-to-face guidance that may or may not be offered by the CABs or TPAS. What I am talking about is a government leaflet, the content of which should also be on a website, explaining in very plain English exactly what all these interactions mean, and therefore allowing people to reflect on those before they then go off to the CABs to decide what is the best thing for them.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I remind the noble Baroness that there will be three strands of guidance: face-to-face guidance; telephone guidance; and information on the Treasury website. Perhaps we will produce a leaflet, but we hope that much of the detail of the background to the way in which the system will work will be on that website.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
I am sorry to press this, and the noble Lord is being very generous in allowing me to intervene again. However, after following this Bill through, I do not know how these provisions will interact. I do not know whether it is okay to recycle your ISAs into pensions and carry on claiming full income-related benefits. This is not about guidance from the CABs. Unless the CABs know whether you are allowed to recycle your ISAs into pensions, how the hell can they give anybody any advice?
Lord Newby
My Lords, I will come to that. I shall deal with the amendment first because it raises an important point in itself before we get to some of the broader issues.
As I say, the FCA consulted on the guidance standards last year, and published its policy statement in November. The near-final FCA standards make certain specific requirements with regard to both collecting relevant information and providing certain types of information. Ensuring that consumers consider factors which are pertinent to their retirement decision, as relevant to them, is an important part of that which the standards capture. The standards require that, according to consumer needs, people are encouraged to provide relevant information about their financial and personal circumstances and their objectives to ensure that they can get maximum value from their guidance experience. In terms of financial information, this might include pension pots or benefits, other sources of wealth or income, including where the individual has a spouse or partner, tax status and debt. In terms of personal circumstances, this might include whether an individual has dependants, or a spouse or partner, and the state of their health and potential long-term care needs. In terms of objectives, this might include the consumer’s plan for retirement, so they can identify their income needs.
The noble Lord, Lord Bradley, spoke to this issue in Committee and asked about the effects of the new flexibilities on eligibility for income-contingent benefits and social care. That has been the burden of other speeches today. This is an extremely important issue and one to which the Government have given, and continue to give, detailed consideration. It is important that the treatment of such products is clear for claimants and for decision-makers, as noble Lords have pointed out. On guiding principles, the Government want to ensure that someone’s decision to use a flexible pension product does not significantly impact on how their means are assessed for social security purposes or social care charging purposes.
Our intention is for the principles of the current rules to remain in place after April this year. At the last Autumn Statement we announced a change to the notional income rules for benefits from April 2015, so that 100%—rather than 150% as now—of the income that an equivalent annuity would offer is taken into account. This will therefore be a more generous calculation than under the previous rules. Guidance will be tailored to an individual’s circumstances and give consideration to issues such as welfare, the need for and future likelihood of social care, and levels of savings and debt. However, where it is clear that consumers need specialist help, they will be directed to relevant specialist guidance and information as appropriate. In the case of social care needs, the guidance service will direct people to their local authority, which, under the Care Act, is obligated to direct them to sources of information and advice.
Benefits entitlement will be one issue for individuals to consider in making their choices, but it is only one of several important factors, such as tax consequences and personal circumstances. As we discussed on tax, there is a special requirement on pension providers to discuss with customers the potential tax implications of the course that they might follow. I can also reassure the House that the guidance service will ensure that consumers also consider relevant issues related to pension decisions, such as state pensions, debts, and other assets, wealth and income. The Government are committed to ensuring that individuals are equipped and empowered to make informed decisions on how to use their pension savings and to take account of these wider circumstances.
On the amendment, the guidance will include benefits. The problem that the noble Baronesses so eloquently described, particular concerning ISAs, is that there are a number of extremely detailed interactions between the savings options and the benefits and tax consequences that will need to be dealt with as part of the guidance. The concern expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, which I completely understand, is that the Treasury and DWP will not get their act together and are not up to the job of doing this. Unsurprisingly, I am significantly more confident than she is. She has begun a correspondence with the DWP on the ISA issue; an e-mail from her to the department is awaiting a response. I can give her an assurance that she will get a detailed response in writing to the questions she has raised between now and Third Reading.
I am not seeking in any way to diminish the fact that potential areas of confusion might arise in particular cases. The challenge that we have accepted, and hope that we can rise to, is to ensure that the guidance and the people providing it will be able to guide people through some of these thickets. If it were not complicated, we would not need to go to such lengths to set up a guidance system in the first place. We are confident that we will deal with these issues, and that people, as they take up guidance, will get the information they require to enable them to make informed choices.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, the Minister’s answer—this is of course not personal; he is dependent on the briefing and the current state of the consideration in the two departments—frankly has appalled me. It is shocking. We are eight weeks away and apparently the two departments have not yet worked out the different rules for the treatment of ISAs and pensions. Are you allowed to cycle your ISAs into pensions to protect them but see the benefit bill go up? Answer: we know not.
We seem to have different rules for social care for those below 65 and above 65—above 65 you will pay, but below 65 you need not. A capital asset is essentially your pension. Is that right? We do not know. We do not know whether we will have fairness between people of a generation—those aged from 55 to 65—or whether we will have intergenerational fairness between those below 65 and those above it.
This is not about guidance; it is nothing to do with guidance at this stage. It is about getting the darned policy right. The policy has not been established. On all the difficult issues, the Government have said, “Have your choice and don’t worry about the small detail”. I am sorry but something like 15 million people are out there who in one way or another will be getting income-related benefits or state pension who need to know. We are eight weeks away and the Government, in the Minister’s words, say these issues are under “detailed consideration”.
This is awful. I have never seen anything of such significant importance to individuals in all my time—20-odd years in social security—or of such sizeable financial implications for taxpayers. We are eight weeks away and we have no clarity of policy that could therefore inform guidance. Writing guidance down and sending it off to CAB and TPAS is easy. What matters is getting the policy straight, and as far as I hear from the Minister tonight the Government have not even begun to do that. It is frankly appalling. I do not blame him. He is obviously a messenger—if I may use that word impertinently—from the DWP and is trying to put the best case he can, but this is shocking. I am sorry that unless he can tell us the policy answers to the questions raised by my noble friends and me tonight this has to be further explored at Third Reading because, as he said, it is under “detailed consideration” and he cannot give answers now.
All that the Minister has so far are inconsistent and contradictory policies, whether they come from HMRC, social care or the DWP. Even though he has had plenty of notice, he has been unable to put those bits together into a jigsaw so that we can even begin to recognise the picture on the box. Eight weeks away! He must be mortified. I would be if I had come to the House with that brief. I hope that, as a result, he will stamp his foot, and we will see whether he is in a position to give clarity of policy, following which there may then possibly be clarity of guidance on Third Reading. If not, I strongly suggest that he postpones Third Reading until the Government have got their act together. In some anger, I withdraw the amendment.
Lord Newby
My Lords, these amendments would require the Government to publish two reviews of the impact of pensions flexibility. I will explain again to noble Lords why the Government believe that they are unnecessary. First, on the issue of the request for distributional analysis,
“by income decile of the population”,
Amendment 23 seeks to require that the Government review the distributional impact of pensions flexibility no less than 18 months after the Bill takes effect. As set out during debate on the Taxation of Pensions Bill, pensions flexibility does not have a direct consequential impact on household incomes. Distributional effects will be driven by the choices individuals make about how and when to take their pension. In addition, household income is not necessarily a reliable measure of pension wealth, particularly in the years immediately prior to retirement. It is possible that the impacts of this policy could be misrepresented if we were to review them only against the distribution of household income.
Turning next to the issue of behavioural analysis which we discussed in Committee, the costing of tax policies often takes account of how individuals will behave in response to them. The assumptions that underpin this behavioural assessment and the methodologies used to arrive at them are certified by the independent OBR. The assessment of how people will behave is, of course, fundamental to the costings that the Government published in the Budget for the impact of pensions flexibility on the Exchequer. The policy costings note published alongside the Budget sets out in detail how the figures have been calculated and so how the Government have estimated the number of people who will access their pension flexibly.
Although I will not describe that methodology in detail here, it is freely and publicly available. Additionally, the Government have set out information elsewhere on the number of people they expect to access their money flexibly. The Tax Information and Impact Note published at the Budget and updated since states that the Government expect,
“around 130,000 individuals a year to access their pension flexibly”.
Policy costings notes set out the assumptions and methodologies underlying costings for tax and annually managed expenditure policy decisions. This practice was established at the June Budget 2010 and reflects the principles outlined in Tax Policy Making: A New Approach, published alongside the Budget that year. This publication is part of the Government’s wider commitment to increased transparency. However, as discussed in Committee, the Treasury considers that in certain circumstances—usually regarding tax-planning and avoidance—making more detailed behavioural assumptions public can have the potential to affect the behaviour they relate to, and can as such be potentially detrimental to policy-making. I reassure noble Lords that the Government will be closely monitoring the behaviour of individuals through tax data when the new system comes into force. This will also be made public through the significant amounts of data on tax receipts and liabilities that HMRC publishes annually.
Both these amendments would also require reviews of the effects of pensions flexibility on the Exchequer, including the impact on income tax, national insurance contributions and the use of salary sacrifice arrangements. When considering this, it is important to note that at the Autumn Statement the Government published estimates of the Exchequer impact of the policy as a whole. These costings, which were certified by the independent Office for Budget Responsibility, cover all the changes made to the policy since the Budget as a result of consultation.
As noted earlier, table 2.1 of the Autumn Statement document set out the total impact of these decisions publicly. After debate on this subject in the other place during the passage of the Taxation of Pensions Bill, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury wrote to the former committee for the Act, setting out these impacts. This included costings for the £10,000 annual allowance, which the Government have introduced to protect the flexibilities from being used by individuals to gain unintended tax advantages.
Turning first to the issue of salary sacrifice, as I explained in Committee, the costings published as part of the Autumn Statement are based on the same central assumptions that underpin the costings published at the Budget. Since the Budget, the Government have explored in more detail the effect of salary sacrifice on this costing. These costings have been scrutinised by the OBR, which was created to provide independent and credible analysis of the public finances. In line with standard practice, these are accounted for as changes to the forecast and so are not outlined in table 2.1 of the Autumn Statement document.
In recognition of the concern raised by Members in the debate on the Taxation of Pensions Bill about the likely impact of salary sacrifice on the Exchequer, the Government’s estimates of these costs were included in the letter sent by the Financial Secretary, and I outlined them in Committee. As the Financial Secretary stated in the debate on the Taxation of Pensions Bill in the other place, the Government will be closely monitoring behaviour under the new system and will work closely with industry to ensure that the system remains fair and proportionate.
The Government therefore believe that there is no need for further legislation in relation to reviews of the Exchequer impacts of this policy, as the Government have already published a significant amount of information and have committed to keeping the Exchequer impacts under review through the usual processes.
Amendment 23 contains a provision that would require that any published review include any impact the pensions flexibility measures might have on the sale of annuities. Data on annuity sales will continue to be available through other channels, such as the data published by the ABI and publications by individual firms. For the Government to review this would be an unnecessary duplication of information already in the public domain.
As I have set out, much of the information requested by this amendment is already in the public domain, published as part of the fiscal process. I hope that that will satisfy the noble Lord. He asked me a specific question about whether his assumption in Committee was correct. I believe it is; if I am wrong, I will write to him. But in the mean time, I hope he will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Bradley
I am grateful to the Minister for his response, particularly on that last point about the example I gave in Committee regarding salary sacrifice. I accept his assurance that, as far as he is aware, all possible scenarios in relation to salary sacrifice have been taken into account in the calculation of impacts on Exchequer revenues, and thank him for his offer to write to me if that is not comprehensively covered by the point I made in Committee.
I am obviously disappointed that the Minister is not prepared to bring all the issues together into one coherent document that would be available to the public and to Members in both Houses of Parliament for ease of analysis of that information. However, I am pleased that he has assured us that, as part of the process of monitoring, the behavioural effects will be taken into account, because the consequences of all these changes need to be very closely monitored. But, in light of the time and the urgency with which he needs to address many of the issues raised today on Report, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Pension Schemes Bill
Lord Newby Excerpts(9 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Greengross (CB)
My Lords, I put my name to this amendment. I thank the Ministers, with whom I have had the pleasure of discussing it, for the work they have done in making sure that the FCA has come to its extremely welcome conclusion. I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Hutton, has just said. We want to know a bit more about exactly how this will work and whether it is sufficient. In the mean time, I have nothing more to add except that, with a great deal of pleasure, there is no longer the need for an amendment, so far as I am concerned—so I will leave other noble Lords to speak to it.
Lord Newby
In Committee, the issue of the second line of defence was the subject of more debate than anything else. I, and other noble Lords, received a lot of lobbying from all sides of the industry and consumer groups about the need for a second line of defence. So I am pleased that other noble Lords are as pleased as I was when I heard, at the end of last week, that the FCA was planning to announce yesterday that it would make new rules by April to protect consumers as they make decisions on how to access and use their pension savings in later life. The Government share the aspirations of the noble Lords, Lord Bradley and Lord Hutton, that we should put in place a new system which gives the maximum opportunity for people to take informed decisions, because we accept that these decisions are, very often, for life and have very significant consequences.
Yesterday evening, I circulated the FCA announcement to noble Lords who had taken part in earlier debates. In short, the rules will introduce a second line of defence. Pension providers will be required to ask consumers seeking to access their pension savings about key aspects of their circumstances relating to the choice that they are making and give relevant risk warnings in response to the answers. This is a very important element: we are keen not simply to have another tick-box exercise, which we could have done at this point. Providers will also have to highlight that guidance from the Pension Wise service, or regulated advice, can help them to avoid making a poorly informed decision. The FCA will also require that messages should be delivered to consumers in direct and simple language.
The FCA announcement illustrates precisely why the amendments we are considering are not needed. The FCA already has a duty to ensure that the retirement income market is working for consumers captured under its statutory objectives, including its objective to secure an appropriate degree of protection for consumers. The announcement demonstrates just how seriously the FCA is taking this duty. It would also be unusual to legislate to give the FCA a specific objective in relation to one sort of investment—pensions—and to do so outside the Financial Services and Markets Act.
I was asked a number of specific questions. The first related to the board agreeing the proposals. It is notable that the press release does not refer to the board. I suspect that this is not an unusual way of dealing with announcements that the FCA wishes to make between board meetings. I believe that there will be a board meeting next month at which the decisions announced yesterday will be ratified. It would be extremely unusual if the board were to go against the advice of its officials on a matter such as this. I am not on the board; its members are independent. However, if I were a betting man, I would be prepared to put my shirt on the likelihood of these new rules being ratified.
The second question was whether these are temporary or permanent rules. The temporary element of them relates to the fact that there has been no consultation. In order to get them in place in time, they have to be introduced quickly under a fast-track procedure. Again, while I cannot formally commit the board or the FCA, I think it is fair to say that there is no intention in anyone’s mind that this should be a temporary provision. The new rules have a long-term purpose; there is no temporary element. It is certainly the intention that there will be permanent rules—but, as I say, the transition from temporary to permanent involves the consultation process which they would normally undertake.
The third question related to whether trust-based schemes would also be covered. As the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, pointed out, the FCA will not cover trust-based schemes, but the DWP, which writes the regulations for trust-based schemes, is working with the Pensions Regulator to consider how this can best be dealt with for trust-based schemes on the same basis, so we have it in hand. This is a very recent development so far as the FCA is concerned; it was announced only yesterday.
Lord Bradley
I am grateful to the Minister. As the DWP is working on the issue with the Pensions Regulator, will it be on the same timetable for introducing such a second line of defence from 6 or 7 April?
Lord Newby
My Lords, that is what we are hoping to achieve, so that everybody is working on the same basis. In making the announcement yesterday, the FCA demonstrated that it has listened to the many representations it has received directly, and to debates in your Lordships’ House. I am pleased that it has. In the light of that announcement, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Bradley
I am very grateful to the Minister for that reply. I thank my noble friends Lady Drake and Lord Hutton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, for their support for this amendment.
The Minister responded well to the three questions I raised. While I accept that he is not a betting man, I also accept that his assurances that the board will approve these proposals, that they are not temporary, and that the DWP will bring in a similar, parallel policy for trust-based schemes are all welcome and reassuring to the House. I believe that this is a real victory for all those who have campaigned, both inside this House and outside Parliament, for a second line of defence to give added protection to people making decisions about the pension pots and retirement income. As we said, that is perhaps the most important financial decision they will make in their lives.
Lord Newby
“(a) create an exception to subsection (1) in the case of a member or survivor whose subsisting rights in respect of safeguarded benefits under the scheme, or safeguarded benefits under the scheme and any other schemes, are worth less than a specified amount;(b) create other exceptions to subsection (1).( ) Regulations under subsection (3)(a) may, in particular, make provision about—
(a) the valuation of the subsisting rights;(b) the process for determining whether the exception applies.”
Lord Newby
My Lords, these amendments are those that we indicated, in Committee, that we would lay on Report. They respond to the recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The committee was concerned that Clause 48(3) was too broad. That subsection provides a power to create exemptions to the requirement to check that advice has been received under the advice safeguard. In Committee we explained that, as set out in the consultation response document Freedom and Choice in Pensions, we intended to exempt those with pensions wealth below £30,000 from having to obtain advice. This remains our only intended use of the exemption. However, it may prove necessary, once the new flexibilities come into force, to create an exemption that applies in other circumstances.
Amendment 4 divides the original power, creating a specific power to exempt from the safeguard those who have rights to safeguarded benefits that are worth less than an amount specified in the regulations. This relates to the exemption we intend to make in regulations for those with safeguarded wealth of £30,000 or less. Amendment 6 makes the same change for Northern Ireland. Amendment 14 changes the procedure that applies to regulations made under these powers, so that only regulations that make an exception for those whose safeguarded wealth is below the specified amount are subject to the negative procedure. These regulations will need to be in place by 6 April, so it will not be possible to make them subject to the affirmative procedure. However, regulations that create any other sort of exception will be subject to the affirmative procedure. Amendments 15 and 16 make the same change of procedure for regulations made by the Northern Ireland Department for Social Development.
The final part of Amendment 4 allows the regulations to specify exactly how this £30,000 threshold will be calculated. In response to feedback from stakeholders, we have decided that this should apply only to safeguarded benefits in the scheme from which the member intends to transfer, and be calculated on the basis of the cash equivalent transfer value, which is the standard measure in the industry.
Lord Newby
““appropriate independent advice” means advice that—
(a) is given by an authorised independent adviser, and(b) meets any other requirements specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State;“authorised independent adviser” means a person who—
(a) has permission under Part 4A of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, or resulting from any other provision of that Act, to carry on a regulated activity specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State, and(b) meets such other requirements as may be specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State for the purpose of ensuring that the person is independent;”
Lord Newby
“(a) create an exception to subsection (1) in the case of a member or survivor whose subsisting rights in respect of safeguarded benefits under the scheme, or safeguarded benefits under the scheme and any other schemes, are worth less than a specified amount;(b) create other exceptions to subsection (1).( ) Regulations under subsection (3)(a) may, in particular, make provision about—
(a) the valuation of the subsisting rights;(b) the process for determining whether the exception applies.”
Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill
Lord Newby Excerpts(9 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, after that forensic double examination, I cannot help reflecting that I am glad I am not responding. I support the amendment because it raises a significant issue. I also want to add the point that here are a Government who say that the best thing we can do is to encourage people to get into work, and I think that that is right; people who are locked out of the employment market, for whatever reason, face a real challenge. So these are people who are determined to work, which is what the Government want them to do, and determined to make a contribution not only for themselves but for their families, yet they are being penalised. The case being made is a valid one. We recognise by the nature of the contributions that this is quite a complex issue, so I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Lord Newby (LD)
Such expectation, my Lords. I know that the question of NI eligibility raised by the amendment is one about which the noble Baroness is deeply concerned and has been for some time; this is not the first time the issue has been raised in your Lordships’ House by her and others. I hope that I can reassure them that the Government are already actively considering this matter, and I look forward to working further with her on this outside the debates on the Bill, to see how best it can be addressed. We are in no sense claiming that this is not a valid issue.
I know that officials from a range of government departments have already been in discussion with interested parties, including the noble Baroness, over recent months, and this work has been considering the evidence base around the matter of national insurance eligibility. As the noble Baroness is aware, it remains a work in progress and we believe that we do not yet know enough to make a sensible legislative change at this point. There are many complex issues regarding the scale of the problem and how to address it.
The noble Baroness raised the figure of 200,000 people who might be affected by the problems that she has so graphically described, but these figures do not align with DWP analysis, which suggests that 50,000 individuals are affected and that the group is disproportionately made up of under-25 year-olds. The noble Baroness laughs but the DWP is not coming up with a low figure for the sake of frustrating her; that is its best view. That is why we need to do more work on the issue.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
I am sorry—I did not understand that sentence at all. Would the noble Lord care to explain to me why somebody on £60 a week would be in the contributory system, while somebody on £110 would not?
Lord Newby
I am drawing the distinction between somebody who is on a zero-hours contract at that level of income and somebody on a higher level of income, on a straightforward contract, which might pay £5,000 a year. The noble Baroness’s amendment deals solely with people on zero-hours contracts—that is what the clauses deal with.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
No—that is not a correct statement. I made it very clear in my opening remarks that this is a problem. My amendment says:
“Such workers shall be eligible for inclusion within the national insurance system”,
and that does not exclude others. I would obviously expect, as the noble Lord absolutely rightly recognises, that that would apply to people on ZHCs. However, as I made very clear in my opening remarks, this affects all those on short-hour or part-time contracts, where in any one job they are not over £5,700, but could by aggregation or in this way, by lowering the LEL, come within the NI system. If we believe in encouraging people into work, we should do this.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I was not suggesting that the amendment would exclude the possibility of further provisions being made for people who are not on zero-hours contracts. However, the amendment would amend a clause that deals specifically with zero-hours contracts—that is what the Bill deals with. It is not dealing with people who are on straightforward contracts for, say, five hours a week. That is the point I am making, that this is partial. I am not saying that that means it is worthless; I am simply saying that it is a partial solution, even if the Government were to accept it.
I reiterate what both noble Baronesses have said, that individuals with earnings below the lower earnings limit, whether on zero-hours contracts or not, are not without some protections already. At the highest level, individuals have to reach the lower earnings limit in only 30 years of a 49-year working life to qualify for a full state pension. Those who reach state pension age from 6 April 2016 will require an additional five years. That means that the individual can fall below this limit for a significant number of years—up to 14—and not be penalised in retirement.
Of course, there are also the other protections, which both noble Baronesses have referred to. Not only income that is above the lower earnings limit counts towards eligibility for a full state pension. Many national insurance credits also count towards that entitlement. For instance, NI contributions can be credited where a person is unable to work full-time due to ill health or because of caring responsibilities. These can be awarded to those receiving certain benefits, such as child benefit or working tax credits, to help build entitlement to a state pension. While we cannot be certain, it is highly likely that many individuals whom the noble Baroness is seeking to benefit are getting national insurance credits during those years in their working life where their earnings fall below the lower earnings limit.
I know that the noble Baroness is keen to make changes as soon as possible, but more work is clearly needed to understand the full extent of the issue. In any event, as I have said, this amendment, which deals only with zero-hours contracts, does not and would not resolve the issue entirely in the way that the noble Baroness wishes. I therefore urge the noble Baroness to continue working closely with the DWP and HMRC on this matter so that they can have the benefit of her very considerable experience and we will eventually reach a satisfactory solution. However, I submit that the way we should do that is not through this Bill and this amendment.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
I thank my noble friend Lord Young, and especially my noble friend Lady Drake for her powerful speech.
The noble Lord, Lord Newby, made three points in reply to which I need to respond. The first was that work was in hand on the working party chaired by the IFS—which, as I said, his right honourable friend Steve Webb set up—on how best the problem should be addressed. Not so. We were told explicitly that all that we could do was collect the data on how many people might be affected, not come up with any policy recommendations. I noticed that when I suggested half a dozen, they were not included in the minutes.
I would be delighted to have the wider remit that the Minister suggested, because that would indeed allow us to take the issue forward. Instead, it has hung around his second point, which is the number coming from DWP of 50,000 as opposed to my figure of 200,000. I am not sure about the propriety of my citing this information in the Moses Room, but if he checks the minutes and the additional information based on research of P14s from HMRC and his department, he will probably find that it is estimated that 130,000 people will be above the current LEL in any one pay period, which could be a week or a month, but over the course of the year will be below LEL, so they are in addition to the 50,000. In addition to that, it was suggested to the working party that about 30,000 or more, possibly far more, are untouched or uncaught because they work for very small employers—the newsagent’s shop, and so on—and are not within the PAYE system. Put those figures together and you get to more than 200,000, my original figure of some two months ago.
The Minister’s third point was that the amendment was very partial and that there was a wider problem with part-time workers more generally. I absolutely agree; he is right. I will be delighted if, as a result, I have persuaded him that the Government need to come back on Report with a comprehensive amendment, a freestanding clause which will address the issue more widely. I invite him to do so, because that is what he has been suggesting and would be consistent with his position in his reply.
At the core—okay, we are arguing between ourselves —is that it cannot be right, first, that someone who is not employed comes into the national insurance system but someone who may be working 30 hours a week cannot do so. Secondly, it cannot be right that when we have a flexible labour market—we have all agreed that a flexible labour market in a 24/7 economy is necessary—all the risks, including the risk of losing a sizeable chunk of your state pension, should fall on the shoulders of the worker, usually a middle-aged woman. That cannot be right. I regard it as immoral. If we want a flexible labour market, and most of us accept that there is a need for it in places, we should ensure that the national insurance system supports those people to do what the rest of us want, wearing our hats as consumers. If we do not, I think that we are behaving immorally. I am sure that, on reflection, the Minister would agree.
I am very happy to continue to discuss numbers on the working party. I am very happy that the Minister will recommend to his right honourable friend that we enlarge the terms of reference of that committee and therefore come up with policy recommendations, and I would be very happy if the Minister were minded to produce some of those recommendations on Report as a government amendment. I would then be very content. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
My Lords, Clauses 149 to 151 give Her Majesty’s Treasury powers to make UK-wide regulations with regard to public sector exit payments. Amendments 68A to 68N and 101A will provide Scottish Ministers with equivalent powers to make regulations to recover exit payments made by relevant bodies in Scotland. They do not enable Scottish Ministers to make regulations affecting payments made elsewhere in the UK. I can confirm that that the Scottish Government have seen these amendments in draft and are content with them. I beg to move.
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
“Power to make regulations to be exercisable by the Treasury or Scottish Ministers
(1) The power to make regulations under section 149(1) is exercisable—
(a) by the Scottish Ministers in relation to payments made by a relevant Scottish authority;(b) by the Treasury in relation to any other payments,(but this subsection is subject to subsection (2)).(2) Where the relevant Scottish authority is the Scottish Administration the power to make regulations under section 149(1) is exercisable by the Treasury (instead of the Scottish Ministers) in relation to payments made to—
(a) the holders of offices in the Scottish Administration which are not ministerial offices (read in accordance with section 126(8) of the Scotland Act 1998), and(b) the members of the staff of the Scottish Administration (read in accordance with section 126(7)(b) of that Act).(3) In this section “relevant Scottish authority” means an authority which wholly or mainly exercises functions which would be within devolved competence (within the meaning of section 54 of the Scotland Act 1998).
(4) Regulations under section 149(1)—
(a) if made by the Treasury, are subject to negative resolution procedure;(b) if made by the Scottish Ministers, are subject to the negative procedure.”
Lord Newby
Wealth Inequality
Lord Newby Excerpts(9 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, domestically, we have invested heavily in HMRC to ensure that the wealthy pay the tax they owe. We have led efforts through the G20 and the OECD to reform the international tax rules to tackle the issue of multinationals artificially shifting their profits to avoid paying tax. Since 2013, we have been the first G7 country to meet the UN commitment to spend 0.7% of GNI on development aid.
Lord Dubs (Lab)
My Lords, given what the Minister has just said, will the Government give their full support to the Private Member’s Bill on Friday which will ensure that we continue to meet the commitment to spend 0.7% of GNP on development aid into the foreseeable future? Secondly, is it not shameful that the world is still so unequal? We should all be ashamed that the richest 1% have all the wealth and that 99% should have very little. Is it not bad for governance and bad for the future of the world that that should be the case?
Lord Newby
My Lords, I can give the noble Lord the absolute assurance that the Government support the Bill that will be debated on Friday. As to global inequality, noble Lords might like to contemplate the fact that to be part of the 1%, the wealth threshold is just over £500,000; so we are all part of the 1%.
Lord Naseby (Con)
My Lords, is it not time that some of our leading charities set about solving the problems they were set up to solve rather than getting involved in financial lobbying and somewhat dubious forecasting? Does my noble friend agree that, looking at what the British Red Cross and Médecins Sans Frontières do, they are the blue chips of our charities, and perhaps some of our other large charities could follow the example that they have set?
Lord Newby
My Lords, the advocacy role of Oxfam and other charities is extremely important. The list of proposals in the report we are debating includes issues such as promoting women’s economic equality and women’s rights. Those goals are shared by all international development charities, which do a very useful job in bringing these important issues to wider public attention.
Lord Kinnock (Lab)
Does the Minister share my concern that the current division in wealth in our country—where the richest 1% of income getters have 14% of the wealth—repeats a situation that was last reached in 1914? If he does, will he tell the House what policies the Government are pursuing to try to close that gap, and especially what fiscal policies they are pursuing to have a necessary effect on the richest people in our country, whatever their place of origin?
Lord Newby
As the noble Lord will know, in terms of wealth, the largest assets held by most people in the UK are housing assets. The Government have taken a number of steps in terms of taxing high-value housing. There is a lively debate about that in terms of the upcoming election. As for income, I remind him that the top 1% is now paying 28% of all income tax receipts, the highest ever level.
Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)
My Lords, does my noble friend accept that the evidence of growing inequality in society reflects the stagnation in social mobility? British society is becoming more and more unequal and polarised, with fewer opportunities for young people, particularly those from deprived backgrounds, to progress in the 21st century than was the case in the previous century. What steps are the Government taking to address that?
Lord Newby
My Lords, I make two principal points. The first is that the increased level of employment means that there are now 390,000 fewer children living in workless households, which sets a very important example in those households about their future life prospects. The other point to bear in mind is that there are now record numbers of people from disadvantaged backgrounds going to university, which, as we know, is one of the best ways of ensuring that people get a good, well paid job.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister not know the evidence which indicates that inequality in this country is increasing? The policy of looking after the rich, based on some kind of theory of a trickle-down effect, is not working. How can there be a situation, under this Administration, where the rich are getting wealthier but the average family is £1,600 a year worse off?
Lord Newby
My Lords, it is simply not true: income inequality has not risen under this Administration. The £1,600 figure—which was immensely dubious even when it was first used three years ago—is now completely outdated by the fact that wages are rising in real terms. The key thing in terms of prosperity and, indeed, income distribution is to increase the number of jobs, to increase the number of well paid jobs. We have increased the number of jobs and vastly increased the number of apprentices. That is the how we are going to enable people from the bottom end of the income scale to do better in the future.
Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend the Minister referred to the forthcoming Private Member’s Bill to enshrine the 0.7% ODA figure in law. Is he aware that the Economic Affairs Committee of this House produced a unanimous report a short while ago pointing out very clearly and cogently why that would be wholly wrong?
Baroness Deech (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the poverty gap can never be closed—both in this country and, especially, abroad—until women are freed from subjection, given full education, allowed to work and provided with childcare; until we end warfare in some countries, improve health and make sure that everybody speaks the language of the country in which they live; and until they achieve their full educational potential? These are issues almost greater than this House can tackle.
Lord Newby
My Lords, that is a very important point. I pay tribute to the role of the charities in promoting women’s rights, as I said earlier. If we look at countries with very high levels of poverty and civil strife—Pakistan is an obvious example—the proportion of women who are illiterate is still shockingly high.
Pension Schemes Bill
Lord Newby Excerpts(9 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Newby
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, the Government intend that all those who stand to benefit directly from the new pensions flexibilities provided by the Taxation of Pensions Act 2014 should have access to pensions guidance, which will help to empower them to make informed decisions about their pension savings.
The amendments to Clause 47 and Schedule 3 are technical amendments to ensure that this is the case. The amendments in this group adjust the definition of pensions guidance in new Sections 333A and 137FB of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, to extend pensions guidance to survivors of members who have benefits to which the flexibilities will apply, rather than just to members of pension schemes. This is needed because in some circumstances pension schemes may provide benefits to survivors of members of the scheme other than insurance-based products or cash lump sums—that is, flexible benefits—without their becoming members of the scheme. I beg to move.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, a large number of government amendments have been tabled for today’s business. The impression given is of last-minute thoughts responding to last-minute contributions and suggestions. If the Government had been doing their groundwork properly, they would not have had to respond to such issues by moving the amendments.
I thank the Minister for doing his best to explain the amendment. I think he has said that these are minor and technical amendments, but can he confirm that that is so and that they do not substantively change the effect of the Bill? Quite frankly, we know what the Government are saying in these amendments. I do not think there has been time to study them very well, so we will reflect on what the Minister has said and consider it very carefully ahead of Report.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I can absolutely confirm that these are minor and technical amendments.
Lord Freeman (Con)
My Lords, I find myself in sympathy with the spirit of the amendment but, I am afraid to say, the detail is somewhat defective. The spirit must be right because the more information that can be available and collected accurately, the better, so that the schemes in the Bill can be improved or amended in due course.
I draw the attention of my noble friend the Minister to the comments of the chartered institute and Royal London; first, on eligibility; secondly, on take-up; and, thirdly, on effectiveness. It is not really possible within a short period of time—that is, on an annual basis—to measure accurately the results of this legislation under those three categories. I look forward to what the Minister has to say, whether in response to this amendment or in due course on Report. I very much associate myself—and, I know, some of my colleagues—with the spirit of the amendment but I think the devil is in the detail.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, for the way in which he moved the amendment, and for setting out some of the broader issues that are covered by a number of groups. I hope the Committee will forgive me if I, too, take my introductory remarks slightly wider than the amendment itself, because I think they are both relevant to this amendment and spill across a number of groups.
First, I draw noble Lords’ attention to the publication today, which the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, referred to, of an update from the Treasury on the implementation of the pensions guidance service. It announced that the brand for the service will be Pension Wise, with the tagline, “Your money, your choice”. This branding will be used by all delivery partners and is designed to be easily recognisable. The HM Government logo will be used to support the Pension Wise brand where appropriate, to underline the credibility of the service. In answer to one of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, potential scammers and fraudsters should be aware that the Bill introduces a new criminal offence which means that anyone passing themselves off as Pension Wise could face prosecution. I can reassure the noble Lord at this point about the way in which the guidance providers will themselves be regulated, and on the basis for the compliance.
The standards for designated guidance providers are in fact a Financial Conduct Authority instrument, so it is a legal document which it is exercising, I am sure the noble Lord will be pleased to know, under Section 333H, Standards for Giving of Pensions Guidance by Designated Guidance Providers, of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. It is therefore very much a statutory underpinning of all the guidance which guidance providers will have to follow. This is a detailed document to which I will refer later. Also from today, following the publication of the document, individuals have the opportunity to register their interest in early access to the service as part of the piloting activities. The publication also sets out details of how consumers can access and use the guidance, with further information on the progress and costs of implementation. I am sure that noble Lords will find this information useful.
I can assure the House that the Government are committed, in looking at the specific amendment, to a full programme of monitoring and evaluation which will look at the uptake of the guidance as well as how it is achieving its objective of informing consumer decision-making at the point of retirement. I share the noble Lord’s focus on ensuring that we maximise take-up of the guidance, and that is why the Treasury is legislating, through this Bill, to place a duty on the FCA to require pension providers to signpost people to the guidance as they approach retirement.
Last year, the FCA consulted on its proposals for delivering against this duty, and in November published a very detailed policy statement with its near final rules. Following Royal Assent, these rules will require pension providers not only to signpost individuals to the guidance service in wake-up packs issued four to six months ahead of an individual’s nominated retirement date, but to recommend to their customers that they seek guidance or advice whenever a consumer wishes to access their pension fund. That is one of the reasons the Government are announcing the Pension Wise brand now, so that the industry can get ready for these new requirements and start bringing the service to their customers’ attention as soon as possible.
I will clarify a statement I made to the House at Second Reading in response, I think, to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, on the issue of requirements in the round and progress towards the standardisation of the pension statements that providers will send to their customers approaching retirement. While it is not yet a formal requirement, the Government are clear that progress must be made by industry more quickly. The FCA has clarified in its near final rules that will underpin the guidance service that information about a customer’s pension pot must include, at a minimum, the current value of the pension pot, along with information on guarantees and other relevant special features. Building on this, the Treasury is working with the industry to standardise how the key information is presented. We have made it absolutely clear that the Government consider this to be a key priority. A wide range of respondents to our consultation last year on the pension freedoms made a convincing case that it is necessary to help consumers understand and engage with decisions on what to do with their pension savings. The Government welcome the recent commitment from industry trade bodies to support the development of standardised materials by the Treasury and to encourage their members to use them in communications with their customers as soon as possible.
The Government welcome the FCA’s commitment to consider making such standardisation a mandatory requirement in the wide review of its rules that will take place in the first half of this year. If the trials show that such standardisation helps consumers, I imagine that will be a very strong case for the regulator to require it. We must recognise, however, that not all individuals will seek to take up the guidance offer. It is their choice to do so. They may have other sources of help and advice, such as an independent financial adviser or advice services provided by their employer. We must ensure that consumers know that the guidance service is available and how it can help them, and encourage consumers to use the guidance as far as possible. We must, however, respect the fact that there will be consumers who will be content and equipped, for a variety of reasons, to make decisions without taking guidance. The FCA has introduced a number of safeguards to ensure that consumers are encouraged to seek guidance or, if they do not, are provided with the necessary information to support decision-making.
In summary, it is made clear that firms should not do anything to dissuade customers from getting the guidance. It has reaffirmed the expectation that firms will encourage consumers to shop around on the open market. It has introduced a new requirement that when communicating with customers about accessing their pension funds, firms are required to ask whether they have taken guidance or relevant financial advice and, if not, to encourage them to do so. It has introduced a new requirement on firms to recommend that consumers should seek guidance or advice rather than simply signposting to it. It has also confirmed that firms will be required to give a description of the tax implications of the option selected by a consumer.
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, can the Minister help me on two points which arise from the Pension Wise document we got just this morning? Page 7, which recites progress to date, says that,
“until the service reaches maturity, overall responsibility for service design and implementation will remain within the Treasury”.
Will the Minister expand on that and say at what stage he believes the service will reach maturity?
Page 17 says:
“Telephone and face to face guidance sessions will initially be designed as a single session per consumer, though this will be kept under review”.
Will the Minister say something more about the components of that review? What will be taken into account in determining whether that single session for consumers is adequate?
Lord Newby
It is difficult to give a precise answer to the noble Lord’s first question, about maturity. The Treasury is, for good or ill, going to keep its mitts on this process until we are very satisfied that it is working well and is seen to be in a stable and successful state.
As for the single session, noble Lords will be aware that people will be able to access the service either online, on the phone or in person. The hope is that by giving people all the financial information that they require, by encouraging them, in the case of pension providers, and by explaining to people, before they turn up to their session, the kind of information that we are looking for, it will be possible to give adequate guidance in one session. We accept that that will not be enough for some people; they will have forgotten something or a thought will occur to them once they have left. We hope that of those cases, which we hope will be a small minority, a majority will be able to get an adequate response to a specific query by going to the website.
We accept, however, that for some people that will not be the case, and that in a minority of cases some people will need to go back, either to make a subsequent phone call or to have a subsequent meeting. However, we are working very hard to minimise that necessity—because, obviously, getting things right first time will be in everyone’s interest.
Lord German (LD)
My Lords, perhaps I could follow the point that my noble friend and the noble Lord opposite have just raised in respect of the same document. Box 2.A on FCA standards requires the people delivering the service to have a range of skills, which are numbered i to viii. I shall refer to a report last week in a newspaper that prints on pink paper, in which it was trying to seek from Citizens Advice and the Pensions Advisory Service the qualities of the people that they would employ. The report in the Financial Times that I am quoting from says:
“Citizens Advice said details of where the”,
agents and case workers,
“would be deployed throughout its … bureaux … were still being finalised. However, it conceded that consumers could be required to make a further appointment if their questions could not be answered during their … guidance sessions”.
That raises two separate issues: one is the quality and skills of the people who are delivering the guidance service, and the other is whether Citizens Advice is on side with the idea of delivering it in one go. The comment seems to suggest that its people may not have answers to the questions that are being raised by those people seeking guidance in their first interview. I wonder whether the range of flexibility on the two is at all appropriate.
Lord Newby
My Lords, we are keen to make sure that by the time people have been through the guidance process, they are able to make the best decisions for themselves. As I say, we hope that that will be possible in the vast bulk of cases first time around.
I think that what will happen in giving guidance in this area, as happens elsewhere, is that there will be a number of very special cases, but the vast bulk of people will have the same issues as others. The CAB, which after all has to give advice on the whole benefits system, which if anything is even more complicated than the pensions system, has a proven track record of developing the skills of people, and is very good at this—while this is, of course, what the Pensions Advisory Service does.
So we are confident that there are going to be well qualified people. We are building flexibility into the system—partly by having three ways of accessing it and partly, as I say, by, in exceptional circumstances or in a minority of circumstances, allowing people to go back—and we hope we are going to make sure that at the end of the day people will all have the degree of guidance that they need, relevant to their needs, to enable them to make well informed decisions.
Lord Bradley
I thank the Minister for his comprehensive reply, particularly when he said that the Treasury would be keeping its mitts all over the service. I assume that that was meant to be reassuring.
I note that he said that he thought the BBC had got the story wrong today about flat-rate pensions, and I listened with great care to his explanation, which we will need to reflect on very carefully. It is vital that people are clear about what their pension income will be when they are making plans about their whole-pot retirement income. I hope that when I read his response, it will be clear that that information will be available to people well in advance of them taking advice from the CAB, the Pensions Advisory Service or whatever source they may choose, so that they can rely on the figures provided to them by the Pension Service.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I will speak in favour of my noble friend’s amendment and address two points. The first is the point my noble friend raised about tax leakage and the risks of salary sacrifice arrangements. I draw the Minister’s attention to Clause 54, which looks at the issue of independent advice and provides, not unreasonably, that that will not be a taxable benefit. However, it precludes it from that exemption if it is the subject of a relevant salary sacrifice arrangement, which is defined in the Bill. Rather than rely on a reduction in the annual allowance as, seemingly, the protection against salary sacrifice arrangements and tax leakage, why not simply adopt the same formulation that is adopted in Clause 54 by precluding salary sacrifice arrangements being available on appropriate definitions?
My second point is to try to get a better handle on the Government’s assessment of behavioural change in the early years as a result of these flexibilities. We can do no better than to focus on the tax projections in the Red Book for March 2014 and the Green Book for the Autumn Statement because those must have been underpinned by some detailed calculations. I am not sure that we have seen that detail to date. I hope that the Minister will follow up in writing if he is not able to deal with all the detail today. How many cases of individuals taking lump sums or other drawdown arrangements rather than annuities are included in those estimates? That must have been the basis on which they were adduced. What is the additional aggregate taxable income expected each year until 2020? How many individuals are estimated to pay tax at higher rates as a result than they would under normal annuitisation? We probed this matter on Report in the Commons but did not get a reply. It would be helpful to have that detail as it would give us an understanding of the Government’s assessment of behavioural change and the number of people who will take more of their pension pots under these flexibilities than would if the annuity arrangements only had been available.
Lord Newby
My Lords, the two amendments in this group would require the Government to publish two reviews of the impact of pensions flexibility. I start by completely agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Hutton, that these changes are welcome freedoms and flexibilities but, like all freedoms, they bring some risks that I hope, in a variety of ways, we shall be effective at mitigating.
Noble Lords will not be desperately surprised to hear that I do not believe that these amendments are necessary. First, when considering new Clause 1 and the parts of new Clause 2 which relate to Exchequer revenues, it is important to note that in the Autumn Statement the Government published estimates of the Exchequer impact of the policy as a whole. These costings, which were certified by the independent Office for Budget Responsibility, cover all the changes made to the policy since the Budget as a result of consultation. The total impact of these decisions was set out in table 2.1 of the Autumn Statement document.
To ensure that the Government were being sufficiently transparent, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury wrote to members of the former Taxation of Pensions Bill Committee setting out these costings. I will now outline them for the benefit of the Committee. Further detail on how these costs were calculated is set out in the policy costings document published alongside the Autumn Statement. However, in the letter sent by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to the members of the former Taxation of Pensions Bill Committee, it was also explained that the costings published as part of the Autumn Statement were based on the same central assumptions that underpinned the costings published at the Budget. Since the Budget, the Government have explored in more detail two aspects of the policy that affect this costing, which takes us to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, about the increased cost of salary sacrifice and the increased cost of welfare as a result of the reforms. The Government have produced costings for these, which have been scrutinised by the OBR. In line with standard practice, these are accounted for as changes to the forecast and are not therefore outlined in table 2.1 of the Autumn Statement document.
Given the concern that noble Lords have expressed, it may be helpful if I detail what those figures are. The revisions to the forecast to account for salary sacrifice, which take account of further discussions and considerations since the Budget, are £35 million in 2015-16, £30 million in 2016-17, and £25 million in each of the following three years. When the forecast was revised to account for the increased cost of welfare, the figures rose from £15 million in 2016-17 to £25 million in 2018-19 and 2019-20. The Government have therefore already published the information that these two new clauses are seeking on the Exchequer impacts of various aspects of flexibility, all of which have been certified by the independent OBR. The Government are committed to keeping the policy under review through the monitoring of information collected on tax returns and tax records. Additionally, HMRC regularly publishes data on tax receipts, which will reflect any impacts on the Exchequer. Any such impacts will be reflected in forecasts at future fiscal events and the Government of course keep tax policy under continuous review. Therefore, there is no need, in the Government’s view, for further reviews of the Exchequer impacts of the policy as the Government have already committed to keep these under review through the usual processes.
Lord Bradley
I am grateful to the Minister and thank him for his explanation of the figures. I want to be absolutely clear that my example of a person who transfers his salary into his pension pot and saves national insurance in the way that I have described has been fully taken into account in these figures.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I believe absolutely that they have. If I am wrong in that, obviously I will write to the noble Lord; but that is the purpose of having initially produced the figures on salary sacrifice and subsequently revised them.
I turn to the other elements of the amendments. Amendment 30B also seeks to require that the Government review the distributional impact of pensions flexibility, no less than 18 months after the Bill takes effect. As set out during debate of the Taxation of Pensions Act, pensions flexibility does not have a direct consequential impact on household incomes. Distributional effects will be driven by the choices that individuals make about how and when to take their pensions. In addition, household income is not necessarily a reliable measure of pension wealth, particularly in the years immediately prior to retirement. It is possible that the impacts of this policy could be misrepresented if we were to review them only against the distribution of household income.
Additionally, Amendment 30B would require the Government to publish behavioural analysis. The costing of tax policies often involves an assessment of the behavioural impact of the measure and, in some cases, the capacity for additional tax planning and avoidance behaviour. These assumptions and methodologies are, of course, certified by the independent OBR. However, as a matter of policy, the Treasury considers that making these detailed behavioural assumptions public can have the potential to affect the behaviour they relate to, and as such can be potentially detrimental to policy-making. The policy costing note published alongside the Autumn Statement explains how the costings have been calculated. This is in line with the principles outlined in the government document Tax Policy Making: A New Approach, which was published alongside the June Budget in 2010.
Amendment 30B would also require the Government to review any impact that pensions flexibility might have on the volume of annuity purchases. Data on the sales of annuities will continue to be available through other channels, such as the data published by trade bodies such as the ABI and publications by individual firms. Therefore we do not think that there is going to be any lack of this information being publicly available, so there is no need for a requirement in the Bill to achieve that.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)
My Lords, is the Minister saying that the information will be available to departments but that the Government do not wish to publish it because of the behavioural implications it may have, or is he saying that it is too soon to gather that information and therefore they will not actually do so? The problem with the second position is that this change is such that it is almost impossible to change policy direction once it is embedded because of the nature of the policy changes, which to my mind are extravagantly at risk. As a result, the Minister is denying Parliament the opportunity to make the modifications before that degree of risk is permanently embedded in public policy.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I was saying that the Government have made an assessment of behavioural changes and they have produced figures which take those changes into account. Therefore, there has been a full assessment of the behavioural changes as best as can be done in advance of the change coming into effect. As I said, it is Treasury policy not to publish those assumptions but that work has been done. In terms of the cost to the Exchequer of this policy change, the figures were published at the time of the Budget and were subsequently revised, as I set out, at the time of the Autumn Statement.
Lord Hutton of Furness
My Lords, presumably that information will be subject to freedom of information requests.
Lord Newby
That, my Lords, is an extremely interesting question to which I do not know the answer.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
In that case, my Lords, the Minister is saying that we are being given the assumptions that go into the forecasts but we are not going to be given the information to see whether those forecasts are accurate.
Lord Newby
I am saying that in a whole raft of areas, no doubt under successive Governments, the Treasury has made behavioural assumptions. When I used to work in Customs and Excise, that was certainly the case when asking what would happen if the duty on whisky was put up. A whole raft of behavioural assumptions is made in policy-making and I do not think that it has been the policy to make those behavioural assumptions public. What obviously has been, and will remain, policy is to set out the impact of those behavioural changes. The noble Baroness shakes her head. Perhaps when she was a Minister behavioural assumptions were made available. My understanding is that that has not been the policy but I will go back to the Treasury and check.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I wonder whether the Minister can help me. It seems to me that there is potentially a difference with behavioural change which is incidental to the fundamental policy issue. However, here we are talking about a system where the change and the data underlying the tax issues are absolutely fundamental—it is what the whole policy change is about. Just to be clear on that, the Budget Red Book for 2014 refers to extra tax in 2015-16 of £320 million, £600 million the year after, £910 million the year after that and £1.2 billion the year after that. I think we understand that work has been done on those figures and that the Office for Budget Responsibility has accepted them as realistic. However, as I understand it, the Government are not going to tell us the basis on which those figures have been derived. They are not going to give us the opportunity to make any judgment as to whether, ultimately, we support the policy.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I was simply saying that my understanding is that it is a long-standing convention regarding the behavioural assumptions that go into producing those figures. The only other thing I would say is that today we have seen another, very different, estimate of the costs. There is a very considerable degree of uncertainty about the figures at the moment but the Government made their best estimate at the time of the Budget and they amended it in the light of further consideration at the time of the Autumn Statement. They will obviously keep the situation under review as we see what people do rather than speculate about how the policy will work.
The noble Lord, Lord Bradley, asked about the effects of the new policy and flexible access on eligibility for means-tested benefits—in particular, social care. The policy aim is to ensure that the decisions people make in choosing between taking their pension as income and keeping more of their pension as capital and drawing it out periodically do not significantly impact on how they are assessed for social care support and how their means are assessed for social security purposes. New statutory guidance and regulations under the Care Act were published on 23 October. They include details on the changing rules for care and support.
In respect of social security, we announced a change in the rule for people above pension credit qualifying age who claim means-tested benefits. The notional income amount applied to pension pots which have not been used to purchase an annuity will be reduced from 150% to 100% of the income from an equivalent annuity, or to the actual income taken if that is higher, in line with the rules for care and support.
The noble Lord, Lord Bradley, asked about unwinding annuities already bought. This is not government policy. It was a suggestion of my colleague Steve Webb, the Pensions Minister, in the context of future Liberal Democrat party policy. It was not a statement of government policy.
I am sure that there are other specific issues raised by noble Lords in this debate to which I have not given a full answer. I will read it again.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I promise not to delay the Committee any longer. However, I would just refer to the point about why the Government have not taken the opportunity to specifically deny the benefit of the flexibilities when there are salary sacrifice arrangements. They have done it in another small part of the Bill, so it is technically achievable. Why have they eschewed that—to allow at least some element of salary sacrifice arrangements to have the tax benefits that they are designed to?
Lord Newby
My Lords, one thing I have not responded adequately to—and I am not sure whether what I am going to say will adequately answer the noble Lord’s point, but I will write to him if I do not—is about salary sacrifice and the question about the £10,000 allowance, which the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, and others, referred to.
The £10,000 allowance is, we think, a sensible middle way to allow the majority of people the flexibility to withdraw or contribute to their pension as they choose from age 55, while also ensuring that individuals do not use the new flexibility to avoid paying tax on their current earnings. However, there are clearly circumstances in which it will be in an individual’s best interests to gain access to part of the pension pot early—at 55 or 56—while by the time they are 60 their circumstances have changed and they can then start contributing again to a pension. We did not want to deny that entirely. Equally, as noble Lords have said, we did not want individuals recycling money out of pension pots just in order to avoid tax. It is therefore a pragmatic compromise figure which we think strikes the right balance.
Lord Bradley
I again thank the Minister for his detailed response. In relation to buying out annuities, the Minister is right—the article in the Sunday Times did state that Steve Webb was a Liberal Democrat. However, it also stated that he was the Pensions Minister. I am sure that this is part of the tensions of coalition as we head towards the general election.
I am grateful for the support for this amendment from the noble Lords, Lord Hutton and Lord McKenzie, both of whom are experts in this field and bring great value to our deliberations. I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying some of the points regarding social care, although again I suspect that there may be further devil in the detail that we may debate further this afternoon.
The Minister’s response made the most compelling case for why we need the review brought back to Parliament with all the information gathered in a coherent and digestible way. In his response to our amendment he identified various sources of information in various departments, and it would take great expertise to beaver away and gather all that information into a form that enables enlightened and informed debate, not only in this House but in Parliament generally, and—in terms of transparency—for the public to understand fully the implications of these amendments.
We need to look carefully at the way in which information is gathered, disseminated and presented to Parliament. This amendment was a very good start for the revolution that is likely to take place in pension provision and how freedoms and flexibilities are used by the public. For today, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Pension Schemes Bill
Lord Newby Excerpts(9 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, I would like to ask the Minister a question which is triggered by the important issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, and the noble Lord, Lord Best. However, I want to look at it from the other way round, which is the situation of someone who is 55, is on housing benefit, and has £20,000 locked away in a small pension pot. At the moment, if you have capital of more than £16,000 and you are pre-retirement, that is an absolute block to any further income-related benefits. Different rules apply when you come to retirement. The assumption throughout is that you can access your pension only at the point of retirement, when different rules apply. What will happen now? Can the Minister help us on this? The rules are that if you have capital that you could get at if you applied for it, you are treated as having that capital. While it was tucked away in a pension and not accessible until you reached 60 or 65, you could not have access to it and so it did not affect your entitlement. But in future you will be able to access your capital in such a way that, under the Housing Benefit Regulations 2006, Regulation 49(2), because you can access your capital, you are treated as though you have that capital, which would therefore automatically cut you off at £16,000—you have £20,000 in your pot —from any access to housing benefit. Can the Minister clarify how this will work in the future?
Lord Newby
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, for giving me the chance via the debate on these amendments to address a number of important issues in respect of the guidance service. I turn first to Amendment 34. This seeks to require an annual report on consumer outcomes. As I said in the earlier debate, in terms of the overall policy of greater flexibility, the Government are committed to keeping the policy under continual review, including through the monitoring of information collected on tax returns and tax records. This was confirmed in the debates in the other place late last year on the Taxation of Pensions Bill, which it then was.
How the market evolves to respond to consumer needs is where the regulators come in, in particular the Financial Conduct Authority. As I mentioned earlier in addressing the amendments tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Bradley and Lord McAvoy, the FCA has a strategic objective to ensure that the markets function well and a specific operational objective to ensure that consumers of financial services are appropriately protected. The FCA has recently published the provisional findings of its Retirement Income Market Study. In this report, the FCA committed to monitor the retirement income market, and if consumers appear not to be getting the support or products they need or if competition is failing to drive good value, it will make whatever intervention is appropriate. The noble Baroness will, I hope, be reassured by the specific commitment of the FCA to monitor consumer outcomes,
“we will monitor the market to track developments to assess whether these risks arise and if so, the impact on consumer outcomes”.
I am also grateful for the related amendment from the noble Baroness which seeks to expand the new duty of the FCA to protect consumers using guidance through its role in setting and monitoring standards for the provision of pensions guidance by designated guidance providers. The noble Baroness raised again the question asked earlier about the supervision of guidance and the respective roles of the FCA and the Treasury. To be clear, the FCA has the responsibility for supervising designated guidance providers’ compliance with the standards which it has set. While the Treasury itself is not a designated guidance provider, it has committed in the update published today that it will fully comply with the FCA standards as far as that is appropriate, because the Treasury is responsible for the online channel.
More generally in respect of the FCA and its powers, the noble Baroness will know, I am sure, that the Financial Services Act 2012 gave the FCA wide-ranging product intervention powers. For the first time it is equipped to ensure that new retirement income products are designed and sold in a way that does not cause detriment to consumers. As for assessing the consumer outcomes resulting from the guidance service specifically, with which Clause 3 is concerned, I can assure the noble Baroness, as I have already the noble Lords, Lord McAvoy and Lord Bradley, that the Government are committed to a full programme of monitoring and evaluation of the guidance service, which will encompass the delivery partners’ provision to ensure that the service is operating effectively and successfully in supporting people in their retirement decision-making.
Lord Newby
My understanding is that that is not the intention, but I shall write to the noble Baroness to clarify that point.
Baroness Greengross
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his very comprehensive reply. I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Best and Lord German, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, who joined in the discussion.
I thought that the Minister’s response was very helpful and inclusive of most of the issues I have raised. He took on board the idea of a prompt, or several prompts, and I think that the wider issues of including other sources of wealth and income were taken. There may be other issues that I have forgotten, but there is time to look at those. I thank the Minister very sincerely for trying to meet all the requirements that I mentioned and for clarifying the role of the FCA and the Treasury, talking about a full programme of monitoring, and looking at the relevant issues that need to be considered in more depth and the rules about guidance that are going to go back to the FCA. The Minister has addressed most of the issues that I raised and I will look between now and the next stage to see whether there are any others that he forgot. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Newby
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, sought a number of assurances about the funding of the guidance and the knock-on effects that this will have on CABs. The Treasury is committed to the provision of high-quality guidance from the start. It has the power in line 12 of page 65, in proposed new Section 333B:
“The Treasury must take such steps as they consider appropriate to ensure that people have access to pensions guidance”.
Given that when we say “pensions guidance” we mean high-quality pensions guidance, that means that there is a legal requirement on the Treasury to will the means as well as the ends.
In terms of the scale of the challenge ahead, we estimate that approximately 300 guidance providers are going to be required, including the CABs, the telephone appointments and the website, and we are actively recruiting them. The funding that the CABs are getting is the subject of continuous discussions between the Treasury and the CABs. I gather that, for the moment at least, the CABs feel that that they are getting the resources they need to do the job that they have been asked to do without any deflection of their core grant and without there being any requirement to fund this from other sources of income that they receive. That is very much the Treasury’s intention behind the whole approach to the scheme.
There has been start-up funding, which the CABs and the other guidance providers have been receiving. The £20 million development fund was announced in the Budget, of which a £10 million advance was approved by Parliament last July to cover preparatory work, most of which is taking the form of grants to the delivery partners. As I said earlier this afternoon, we estimate that there will be a cost of £35 million in the next financial year, and the Treasury is committed to increasing the amount that is made available if the demand for the service warrants it. I hope that, with those assurances, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Bradley
I am grateful to the Minister for his response. I certainly would have liked to be a fly on the wall in the negotiations between the CABs and the Treasury to see where they were both coming from as their starting point, let alone where they ended up. I am grateful for the assurances that the Minister has given regarding other funding streams for the CABs and the funding for this service. Clearly, none of us wants to get into a situation where the CABs have to prop up the service by use of their invaluable volunteers, who do excellent work within citizens advice bureaux but obviously would not have the expertise, knowledge or training to undertake this work. It is therefore crucial that the activities are separated in that way. However, with those assurances from the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, I support the amendment and have added my name to it. As we have heard, it is about placing a duty on the FCA to set regulations for pension providers to deliver adequate protection for consumers—the second line of defence. However, having heard the contributions of my noble friends Lord Bradley and Lady Drake, I find myself with nothing further to say. I could go through some partial repetition but I think that, in the circumstances, I will desist.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken on this amendment, and perhaps particularly the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton.
The amendment relates to the FCA’s duty to secure an appropriate degree of protection for consumers making a decision about their retirement income, with or without guidance. It is important to recognise that, as noble Lords have said and as was mentioned in a previous debate today, not all individuals will seek to take up the guidance offer, and that is their choice. I agree with noble Lords that, whether a consumer has taken guidance or not, they should be assured of their protection in the financial services market and be furnished with the right information to make an informed choice. I completely accept the point made by noble Lords —and as demonstrated in the FCA’s market studies—that in the past this has often not been the case.
First, the FCA is a relatively new body with new powers. I assure noble Lords that it has a duty to ensure that the retirement income market is working for consumers. That is captured under its statutory objectives, including its objective to secure an appropriate degree of protection for consumers in this market, which already extends across retail financial services markets. The FCA has specifically committed to closely monitor how the retirement income market develops and to take action where appropriate. It has broad powers to take action if there is evidence of mis-selling of products that are clearly inappropriate for consumers. It also has product intervention powers, which allow it to ban features of products or require products to be sold with certain protections or restrictions in place.
It is also important that consumers have the right fundamental information that they need to inform their choices, whether they take guidance or not. For those who choose not to take up the offer of guidance—the amendment is about people who choose not to take up the guidance; the issues raised here will be covered in the guidance sessions—the FCA’s rules, which it recently consulted on, in respect of these pension changes will require firms to provide a description of the possible tax implications when people apply to access their pension fund. The FCA has also made it clear that firms can question a customer’s decision where they feel it is inconsistent with their circumstances without fear of overstepping the boundary into regulated advice.
As noble Lords have pointed out, the FCA has committed to reviewing all its rules in the first half of this year. I assure noble Lords that it is considering what additional consumer protections should be put in place to support people making choices about their pension savings and the implications of those different choices. This is not simply a reactive approach; the FCA is doing this in the light of the work that it has already done and in the light of its extensive understanding of the market.
This debate highlighted an important issue of FCA protection. I hope that I have been able to assure noble Lords that not only does the FCA already have a duty to secure an appropriate degree of protection for consumers, regardless of whether they have used the Pension Wise service, but it has the appropriate powers to fulfil this duty without this amendment. Its attention is suitably focused on the development and treatment of consumers in the retirement income market. I hope that the noble Lord will therefore see fit to withdraw his amendment.
Baroness Drake
My Lords, I had not intended to speak on this amendment but I should like to support my noble friend in his probing. As a pension trustee, I deal with these requests for transfers for a cash equivalent value from DB to DC schemes. I think I dealt with two this morning. As someone with a fiduciary duty—when I see the scale of what can be transferred—they keep me awake at night. What I had to sign off this morning made me think that I should take the opportunity to reinforce my noble friend’s concern.
I am sure that demand for these transfers is already rising in anticipation of the new freedoms that will flow from April 2015. I am concerned. We have already seen problems such as pensions liberation. We can talk about the FCA and the regulated industry, but what unregulated charlatans and scoundrels are waiting in the wings to encourage people to transfer their funds and access their freedoms? As someone who has been a trustee for about 27 years—dreadful I know—I have seen the personal pensions problem, the cash accounts transfer values and the pension liberation scams. I have watched these things from the perspective of a trustee. I have a real fear that this is a car crash waiting to happen unless it is properly regulated.
Two adjectives go with advice: “independent” and “appropriate”. Independence is easy to define, in a way, because it has a regulatory definition. What is really important is what is appropriate. As a trustee I would want to know what the Government think is the appropriateness of the advice people have received when they make applications to the schemes of which I am a trustee for such a transfer.
I read the response to my noble friend Lord Bradley on the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s report and my reading of that letter is that the Government are on the case. That would be great, and if they are I want to say positive things and encourage the Minister to deal with this robustly, because it is a car crash waiting to happen. It is not just a matter of the big defined benefit pots. If you are on quite a modest income and are lucky enough to have a DB scheme, then even if your pension is going to be about £4,000 a year that will translate into a really big pot of cash—a pot of cash such as you may not have seen before—leaving you quite vulnerable. I can see from the letter to my noble friend Lord Bradley that the Government are on the case. I urge them to stay on the case.
Lord Newby
My Lords, these amendments give expression to the recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee concerning Clause 48. Amendments 47 and 48 make the regulations under subsections (3) and (7) subject to the affirmative procedure. Amendment 44A narrows the power taken in Clause 48(7) in such a way that regulations could not be made setting out the nature of appropriate advice but would instead focus on the characteristics of an appropriate person. As the noble Baroness has just pointed out, my colleague Steve Webb, the Minister for Pensions, wrote to the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, chair of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, acknowledging the committee’s concerns, providing a commitment to address them as far as we can and explaining why we were unable to accept the committee’s exact recommendations. The letter details alternative ways in which we will be able to address the concerns of the committee and the House. As Amendments 47 and 48 implement the committee’s recommendations, the government response is along similar lines to the letter, which can be found in the Library.
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
My Lords, at Second Reading my noble friend Lord Bourne explained that there was a need to define flexible benefits due to differences between pensions and tax legislation regarding money purchase benefits. The definition of flexible benefits contains three elements. These are: money purchase benefits; cash balance benefits; and a third category of benefit which is not money purchase or cash balance but is calculated by reference to an amount available for the provision of benefits. The most common form of benefit offered in this category relates to a pension with the option of a guaranteed annuity rate. It is to this third category that the amendments are primarily aimed.
Amendments 46 and 50 ensure that a scheme must check that a member has received appropriate independent advice before paying an uncrystallised funds pension lump sum from arrangements in the third category of flexible benefit, which includes guaranteed annuity rate pensions. Benefits within this third category offer a level of security of income akin to defined benefit arrangements. Guaranteed annuity rates were typically issued in the late 1980s and 1990s, their distinguishing feature being an enticement to customers promising that when they came to take these pensions, if they bought their annuity with the provider with which they had accumulated the pension, they would get an annuity rate specified at the point of purchase.
Due to the decline in annuity rates, the pensions these guaranteed annuity rate arrangements provide by means of annuities are especially generous. Therefore in the Bill they are given the same safeguarded treatment as a defined benefit pension. An individual should, in each case, understand what it is they are giving up before taking advantage of the new flexibilities. The Bill already requires a scheme to check that advice has been received before an individual transfers their rights from such an arrangement, or where a member converts their benefit into a draw-down arrangement.
Amendment 46 extends this protection to the circumstance where a member or survivor takes an uncrystallised funds pension lump sum. Clause 48 does not currently require this because taking such a lump sum does not constitute a transfer or a conversion. I must emphasise that these amendments only require that advice be taken before taking an uncrystallised lump sum in return for safeguarded benefits. It does not require that advice be taken on uncrystallised lump sums in any other circumstances.
Amendment 46 amends Clause 48, providing that this has effect for Great Britain. Amendment 50 amends Clause 51, making parallel provision for Northern Ireland. Amendment 103 defines uncrystallised funds pension lump sum by reference to the Finance Act 2004.
I recognise that these amendments are challenging to explain and understand but the effect is to make a small change that ensures that those with valuable benefits such as guaranteed annuity rates will be properly informed before deciding to give up those benefits. I therefore beg to move.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of the amendments. “Challenging”is is one of the words that he used. I would like to challenge the thrust of what the Government are saying about these amendments. Although, strictly speaking, he has not used the words “technical amendments”, nevertheless they are in that category. I would like to probe a wee bit further and ask how the amendments came about. What advice was taken, what discussions took place and what organisations were in touch with Ministers to press this change? It could be argued—slightly tendentiously, but it could be argued—that this changes the Bill quite a bit. When did the Government decide to bring out this amendment whereby people with a guaranteed annuity rate pension would have to take advice? It has been a constant theme—not only previously but today in particular—that a number of amendments seem to be afterthoughts or a result of lobbying. It is a good thing in that these are very important issues and people are entitled to try to influence government. However, I would like to probe a wee bit further and ask what process was entered into that ended up with this amendment.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that the amendments are very technical at one level. However, they are not technical amendments; they are proper substantive amendments. They broaden the scope of the type of pension where people will be required to take advice. I will happily write to him if I can provide him with more details. I think that it simply became apparent to officials during the Bill’s passage that this was a potential—relatively small—market involving a type of pension lump sum that had not been covered in the way that had always been intended for this sort of thing. As we find with most Bills as they go through the House, the Government introduce amendments because they become apparent to officials as they do more work and to parliamentary counsel as it does more work. If there was anything more specific that led to these amendments, I will definitely write to him.
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
My Lords, the purpose of Amendments 87, 88 and 89, which amend Clause 66, is to improve the drafting of technical aspects of this clause, which introduces restrictions on transfers out of unfunded defined benefit public service pension schemes to schemes from which it is possible to acquire a rise or entitlement to flexi-benefits. Amendment 87 ensures that the definition of unfunded public service defined benefit schemes applies where it is needed. Amendment 88 enables the Treasury to make regulations relating to public service pension schemes which can currently be made only by the Secretary of State. Amendment 89 ensures that certain regulations already in force will apply until new regulations are made under certain of the new powers provided for in this clause.
Turning to the amendments in respect of Clause 67, as a reminder, I say that the purpose of this clause is to introduce a new safeguard for funded defined benefit public service pension schemes which gives Ministers a power to designate a scheme or part of a scheme, and in that way require the reduction of cash-equivalent transfer values in respect of transfers from that scheme to another scheme in which the member will be acquiring flexible benefits.
Amendments 90, 91 and 92 clarify the schemes covered in Scotland by the new safeguard for funded defined benefit public service pension schemes, which is introduced in Clause 67. They ensure that only schemes which are public service pension schemes within the meaning of Section 1 of the Pension Schemes Act 1993 fall within the power introduced by this clause.
Amendment 93 improves the drafting of Clause 67. Rather than speaking of “acquiring” flexible benefits, the clause will refer to acquiring a “right or entitlement to” flexible benefits, which is more accurate. Amendments 94, 95 and 96 amend Clause 69 to make provision for Northern Ireland parallel to that made for Great Britain by amendments described above. Similarly, Amendment 97 amends Clause 70 to make provision for Northern Ireland parallel to that made for Great Britain by the amendments described above. I beg to move.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his exposition. He sold me when he mentioned Scotland, so I think we accept that these amendments are genuinely minor and technical, although, to coin a phrase, we will reserve our position in case we discover something. I hope my noble friend Lord McKenzie of Luton can resist the temptation to jump up and shout, “Me too!”.
Insurance Bill [HL]
Lord Newby Excerpts(9 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Newby
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 1, I shall also speak to Amendment 2. In the amended Bill, Clause 4(6) provides that, for the purposes of the duty of fair presentation of the risk, the insured “ought to know” what should have been revealed by a “reasonable search of information” available to it.
Some of the evidence we heard in Committee made the case for the Bill explicitly confirming that the “reasonable” search may extend to persons covered by the insurance contract but who are not the insured in the sense of being a contracting party. Noble Lords will recall that my noble friend Lady Noakes and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, put forward amendments to this clause in Committee stating that the reasonable search may extend to persons who could benefit from the contract. The Government were unable to agree with the specific wording of those amendments, and they were subsequently withdrawn.
However, we agreed to take the issue away and consider whether amendments needed to be made to ensure that the intended scope of the clause is clear. The Government consider that such clarification would benefit the Bill, and Amendments 1 and 2 seek to address this issue. As we discussed in Committee, what is a reasonable search of information will depend on the type of cover an insured seeks and the type of entity it is. It is important that Clause 4(6) expresses a broad principle that is flexible enough to take account of the wide variety of insurance policies and types of cover which are bought in the non-consumer context.
Amendment 2 clarifies that “information” which an insured ought to know may include information held by a person other than the insured, specifically mentioning that this may include,
“a person for whom cover is provided by the contract of insurance”.
This makes clear that persons benefiting from the contract could come within the scope of the insured’s reasonable search. I believe that this was at the heart of the amendments put forward by my noble friend Lady Noakes and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and I hope that they are content with the drafting we have produced on this in Amendment 2. These amendments will improve the Bill, and I hope that the House can support them. I beg to move.
Lord Woolf (CB)
My Lords, in accord with the approach adopted by the Minister throughout the discussions on this Bill, I would like to acknowledge the help that he gave, which was something that I and the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, were looking for.
Lord Newby
“( ) In subsection (6) “information” includes information held within the insured’s organisation or by any other person (such as the insured’s agent or a person for whom cover is provided by the contract of insurance).”
Lord Newby
“Terms not relevant to the actual loss
(1) This section applies to a term (express or implied) of a contract of insurance, other than a term defining the risk as a whole, if compliance with it would tend to reduce the risk of one or more of the following—
(a) loss of a particular kind,(b) loss at a particular location,(c) loss at a particular time.(2) If a loss occurs, and the term has not been complied with, the insurer may not rely on the non-compliance to exclude, limit or discharge its liability under the contract for the loss if the insured satisfies subsection (3).
(3) The insured satisfies this subsection if it shows that the non-compliance with the term could not have increased the risk of the loss which actually occurred in the circumstances in which it occurred.
(4) This section may apply in addition to section 10.”
Lord Newby
My Lords, Amendment 3 is, with a few slight amendments, the text which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, put forward in Committee concerning terms not relevant to the actual loss. It is intended to prevent an insurer from relying on a policyholder’s non-compliance with a warranty or other contract term in order to avoid liability for an insurance claim for loss of an entirely different kind.
From the outset, the policy aim behind this amendment has been generally well supported. There were some concerns about the drafting of the clause, which meant that it did not achieve a sufficient consensus of support such that it could be introduced as part of an uncontroversial Bill. The text of this amendment was proposed and consulted on by the Law Commission after the introduction of the Bill as a drafting solution which, it was hoped, would be suitable for this non-controversial parliamentary procedure.
I am very pleased that the written and oral evidence put to the committee, together with the backing of the committee members themselves, has demonstrated a strong body of support for this formulation. As such, the Government consider it suitable to be included in this Bill. It complements the existing Clause 10, which makes changes to an insurer’s remedy for breach of warranty. I beg to move.
Lord Newby
“(1) This section applies where—
(a) a contract of insurance is entered into with an insurer by a person (“A”),(b) the contract provides cover for one or more other persons who are not parties to the contract (“the Cs”), whether or not it also provides cover of any kind for A or another insured party, and(c) a fraudulent claim is made under the contract by or on behalf of one of the Cs (“CF”).”
Lord Newby
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 5 to 9 and manuscript Amendment 10A, which has been tabled in substitution for Amendment 10. The amendments respond to representations made to the committee that Clause 12 on fraudulent claims in consumer group insurance should be extended to group insurance contracts in the non-consumer context. My noble friend Lady Noakes tabled amendments on this point in Committee. The Government supported this change in principle but were unable to support the specific amendments suggested by my noble friend. As such, her amendments were withdrawn on the basis that the issue would be taken away and considered further.
We have now had the opportunity to consider the amendments needed to the Bill in order to effect this change. Clause 12 currently provides that where a member of a group consumer insurance contract makes a fraudulent claim, the insurer has a remedy against the fraudulent group member but the remaining members of the group policy are protected. Amendments 4 and 5 extend the application of Clause 12 to the non-consumer context, and indeed in respect of contracts that cover both consumers and non-consumers as group members under the same policy. Amendments 6 and 7 correct a small error in Clause 12(3) that was spotted when drafting the main amendment to the clause.
Amendments 8, 9 and 10A deal with contracting out. In the consumer context, an insurer will not be able to put a consumer group member in a worse position than they would be in under Clause 12. In the non-consumer context, an insurer will have to comply with the transparency requirements if they wish to put a group member in a worse position. These provisions are consistent with the contracting-out provisions generally, and are a necessary consequence of extending Clause 12 to non-consumers. I should explain that the only difference between Amendment 10A and Amendment 10, which it replaces, is that the various cross-references to other sections have been corrected.
I believe that these amendments fully address the desire of the committee, particularly my noble friend Lady Noakes, and a number of the committee’s witnesses to extend the application of Clause 12 to the non-consumer context. These are uncontroversial amendments and I hope therefore that noble Lords can support them. I beg to move.
Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, I thought it would be appropriate for us to say that we support these amendments. It is a good example of Parliament working to improve a valuable service industry, enhancing its position globally. That is important because the UK is a world leader in this. It is not a subject that I profess a great deal of knowledge about but I cannot help having a slight ironic feeling. My late father, who was a very successful insurance agent, would have been pleased to hear my contribution, brief though it is.
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
“Contracting out: group insurance contracts
(1) This section applies to a contract of insurance referred to in section 12(1)(a); and in this section—
“A” and “the Cs” have the same meaning as in section 12,
“consumer C” means an individual who is one of the Cs, where the cover provided by the contract for that individual would have been a consumer insurance contract if entered into by that person rather than by A, and
“non-consumer C” means any of the Cs who is not a consumer C.
(2) A term of the contract of insurance, or any other contract, which puts a consumer C in a worse position as respects any matter dealt with in section 12 than that individual would be in by virtue of that section is to that extent of no effect.
(3) A term of the contract of insurance, or any other contract, which puts a non-consumer C in a worse position as respects any matter dealt with in section 12 than that person would be in by virtue of that section is to that extent of no effect, unless the requirements of section 16 have been met in relation to the term.
(4) Section 16 applies in relation to such a term as it applies to a term mentioned in section 15(2), with references to the insured being read as references to A rather than the non-consumer C.
(5) In this section references to a contract include a variation.
(6) This section does not apply in relation to a contract for the settlement of a claim arising under a contract of insurance to which this section applies.”
Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill
Lord Newby Excerpts(9 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, as a Leeds United supporter, I begin by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, on the success of Spurs. As a young boy, everybody in my class supported either Wolves or Spurs, as this was a time when Spurs were doing rather well in the FA Cup more generally. I supported Spurs. This was a time when no one who lived in Leeds supported Leeds United, because they were not worth supporting. I graduated to better things but am very pleased that Spurs are still doing well. I also congratulate him on the work that he did on payday lending and getting the current legislation in place. I am sure that all noble Lords agree that that has been a beneficial change, and he was absolutely instrumental in bringing it about.
I am also grateful for the opportunity to discuss the issues raised by this group of amendments. I absolutely understand what the noble Lord is seeking to achieve, but I am not really convinced that they are necessary. Taking them in turn, Amendments 13, 14 and 15 would require that designated banks and credit reference agencies provide information about the criteria used to calculate the credit score of a small or medium-sized business customer. The Government agree that it is vital that businesses have the information they need in order to maximise their chances of securing finance. However, I believe that this is best achieved by improving transparency in the banking sector and by educating businesses to help them understand the impact their behaviours have on their credit scores—not through legislation.
The Government have introduced measures in order to make the banking industry one of the most transparent in the world. These include the requirement on the largest banks to disclose lending by postcode areas, the Federation of Small Businesses’ and British Chambers of Commerce’s new Business Banking Insight survey, commissioned by the Chancellor, which helps small businesses see which bank is best for them, and the independent appeals process, which allows any SME rejected for a loan to get a second chance.
There is a wealth of information in the public domain which businesses can use to understand the impact their behaviours have on their credit scores. This includes the information provided by the CRAs themselves, the Money Advice Service, the British Business Bank, charities and other information providers. An excellent example is the Business Credit Scoring Explained pamphlet produced by Professor Russel Griggs, chair of the independent lending appeals process, which is available on GOV.UK and the British Business Bank website. It is a surprisingly easy to read document. I would have thought that any small business seeking to understand how credit scoring worked would find it immensely useful. It is this wider sort of information that is most valuable and useful to SMEs, in our view, when they are considering how to improve their options for accessing finance.
The Government intend to continue to work closely with business groups, banks and CRAs, to build on the existing good work in this area, to help promote existing material and to create new, informative aids for businesses. However, CRAs and banks compete on the accuracy of the models and methods they use to assess risk. An obligation to reveal this proprietary information could undermine the competitive nature of these markets, which would be in nobody’s interest. Just as importantly, I am concerned that detailed models produced by banks and CRAs would be of little use to the average SME. Examples such as the pamphlet I have just referred to are much more suitable in my view and are of course already available.
Amendment 17 is intended to restrict the information that may be shared under the regulations to information specifically identified by the business. I assure noble Lords that this is already the policy intention. Clause 4 requires that businesses must have agreed to have data provided to CRAs. Our intention is that this agreement will have been given when signing the terms and conditions for a financial product, which is the process that businesses are used to. Therefore, we believe that this amendment is simply not necessary.
Amendment 18 aims to ensure that the Government analyse the costs of the measure. The Government have already published a regulatory impact assessment setting out the impact of the changes on banks, CRAs and businesses. It concluded that banks would incur upfront IT costs of £10.5 million and that CRAs would incur upfront IT costs of £3.5 million but that any ongoing cost of sharing these data would be negligible for established lenders. It also concluded that the measures will increase competition in the CRA market and the market for lending to SMEs, which would produce a downward, not upward, effect on prices charged for credit scores and the cost of lending.
I hope that I have been able to assure the noble Lord that these amendments are not necessary and that he will agree to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Byford (Con)
My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned the whole question of the security of data sharing. I should just like to have confirmation from the Minister that Clause 4 covers that. There is sometimes a risk in sharing data that it can be to the disadvantage of a company, and that would be very unfortunate if it were to happen in this case. I was not sure whether the Minister’s response to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, covered that and therefore whether the Bill covers that point.
Lord Newby
The important thing is that information which a company has and which might be shared is shared only with the explicit prior approval of the company. As I was saying, this is one of the things that is often included in the terms and conditions of any agreement or relationship that the company has with the bank. Unless the company has explicitly said that it is prepared to have its data shared, they will not be shared. More generally, all the activity that we are talking about is covered by normal Data Protection Act safeguards.
Baroness Wheatcroft
My Lords, I just wish to raise a slight qualm that I have on this issue. I applaud the idea of data sharing and the theory that it would enable small firms to shop around for credit more easily in the Funding Circle that the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, mentioned—it is one of those organisations that can respond very quickly if it gets the data that it needs—but Amendment 17 seems to offer the possibility of small firms picking and choosing which bits of the data are made available. We all support small firms but some do not always behave entirely honourably, and I would be very nervous about a proposal that allowed a small firm to say, “This little bit of the verdict on what I do can be relayed to a potential lender but not that little bit because that little bit tells a very different story”. Therefore, I think that we need to be clear that when we are saying that a small firm, or indeed any firm, can give its permission for data to be shown to an alternative lender, it needs to be the whole picture, otherwise we are in danger of getting to where we have got to now—with references to individuals, for instance—where the reference is meaningless. You are very lucky if the reference says, “You would be very lucky to get this person to work for you”, which of course can be interpreted in two different ways. People are now very nervous about committing anything on the basis of just a corporate reference.
Lord Newby
I think, my Lords, that that concern is dealt with by the fact that approval or agreement that data might be shared tends to take the form of being included in the standard terms and conditions of the bank, so one will not be able to pick and choose. One will be presented with a standard form that states, “You agree to the following forms of data being used”. There will not be much scope for negotiation as to which data are open for discussion.
Lord Mitchell
I should like to respond to the Minister by thanking him for his support on the subject of payday lending. There were some dark days in this three-year campaign, and he and I had private meetings in which he gave me a lot of encouragement. Me saying that from this Dispatch Box will have totally ruined his career, but he was very supportive and for that I am grateful. I thank him for the points he made, which are helpful. We will, of course, come back to all this on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
My Lords, these amendments make a number of technical changes to Clauses 4, 6 and 7 to ensure that the credit data and finance platforms measures work as the Government intended. The amendments also specify the commencement date for the Government’s cheque-imaging provisions.
Beginning with the amendments to credit data and finance platforms, Amendment 16 is a clarificatory amendment to Clause 4 to ensure that banks do not deliberately circumvent their obligations to share credit data with credit reference agencies. Amendment 20 would ensure that the regulations under Clause 4 may require credit reference agencies to provide all the data obtained by them under the credit data measure to the Bank of England, not only data provided by designated banks.
Amendments 22, 23 and 29 would allow the Government to accept the recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee that any future change to the regulations made under Clauses 4, 5 or 7 be subject to the affirmative rather than negative procedure.
Amendments 27 and 28 would ensure that providers of invoice discounting and factoring services are covered by the definition of “finance provider”. This allows them to benefit from government measures to improve access to credit data and to implement platforms for rejected small business finance applications. Providers of invoice discounting and factoring are a key part of the financing landscape for smaller businesses and it is essential that they are able to benefit from these measures.
Finally, Amendment 103 specifies the date for the commencement of the provisions enabling cheque imaging in the UK as 31 July 2016. This amendment will therefore help ensure the banking industry delivers this payments innovation to customers as quickly and ambitiously as possible. The Government are tabling this amendment to help ensure that the benefits of cheque imaging are delivered to a clear, fixed and timely schedule. I beg to move.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, the Opposition are happy to accept the great majority of what has been produced in this group. We see the logic of the amendments and understand their rationale. It is sometimes amusing to find the Treasury in a situation in which it appears not to have been quite as convincing as it ought to have been in its submissions to the DPRRC. The noble Lord made a good fist of it but it must have been a bit galling to realise that in some ways the mighty writ of the Treasury, which normally runs everywhere, got washed away by the firm rebuttal of the idea that somehow a Henry VIII clause, when introduced by the Treasury, was okay but not when it was introduced by others. I am glad to see that the changes made here bring back a more coherent and consistent approach. Other than that, this is a welcome step forward.
Lord Flight
My Lords, as I have already pointed out, Amendment 25 really goes with Amendment 5. Very simply, and hence why it comes up in this section of the Bill, it endeavours to slightly widen the size of SME which can benefit from the provisions on credit information availability by substituting the R&D tax credit definition of an SME for the definition currently pertaining in the Bill.
There is quite an important point here, which is that the crucial measure of the ability of a company to command lending services is really its EBITA. Most companies with an EBITA below £5 million have problems in sourcing capital investment finance. Basically, the argument runs that the definition used for an SME is really too small and that small and medium-sized businesses are in just as much need of assistance in sourcing credit and investment as are smaller companies.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I begin by repeating that the Government are completely committed to ensuring that SMEs can access the finance that they need to grow and create jobs. That is why the Bill seeks to build on the progress that the Government have already made on this agenda by bringing forward further innovative solutions to ensure that businesses can borrow and succeed. These include ensuring that alternative lenders can access credit information on smaller businesses to help them make lending decisions, and creating a new process for rejected smaller businesses to be offered the opportunity to use government-designated platforms that will help match them with alternative lenders. I will go through the amendments in turn.
Amendment 18A relates to providing financial advice as part of the finance platform offer. The new process provided for by Clause 5 has been designed to address a specific problem affecting smaller businesses’ ability to secure finance: namely, the evidence suggests that a smaller business will go straight to its main bank when it needs to borrow. If the banks says no, the business will give up its search there in the belief that it is already at the end of the road, as the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, pointed out when we discussed an earlier amendment. However, alternative sources of finance for smaller businesses are coming on stream all the time.
The new process will address this problem by requiring banks to offer businesses that they reject for borrowing a new option alongside making an appeal or going to see a broker. To be clear, going to designated platforms will be a route that rejected businesses can take alongside or in tandem with existing avenues available to them, such as seeking professional advice. It is right therefore that the platforms process remains focused on addressing the issue of access to finance, which is where the real problem is. Of course, platforms will also be able to add additional services on top of the minimum legislative requirements—the Government want to give platforms freedom to compete with each other to offer the best possible service. My noble friend will therefore be pleased to know that the Government’s discussions with the industry have indicated that the majority of providers interested in securing designation intend to support advice for businesses as part of their value added services. However, we do not believe that adding the specific amendment that he suggests is something that we should contemplate at this point.
Amendments 19 and 24 relate to parliamentary scrutiny. I hope that noble Lords will be reassured by, and be happy about, the government amendments that we have just debated, which accept the recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee to move to the affirmative procedure. The only thing I would say about Amendment 19 is that, in speaking to it, the noble Lord said something slightly different from what the amendment says. The amendment says that the Government should report on the number of times the regulations are used within a year. It does not say that it should be a broader report of the sort that he suggested in his speech. It is unlikely that these provisions will be used many times in a typical year, and the very fact that they will now be dealt with by affirmative resolution means that Members of both Houses will have a much clearer sense of exactly what has happened in any given year, because those who are interested in them will have been debating them.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I understand the logic of what the noble Lord is saying and the rationale for what the Government are doing, and that there will be consultations around this. However, the point that he has just made surely exposes the gap. If a medium-sized company, not a microbusiness, has a CRA purporting to report on it in a way that is factually incorrect or gives the wrong impression, is the only redress to take it up directly with the CRA?
Lord Newby
Going to the CRA is the logical first port of call, is it not? We are talking about cases here where a company believes or knows that the CRA has incorrect information about it on its books, and it will be in the interests of the CRA to correct any mistakes. As I say, the complaints procedure is part of the designation. We are making sure that the CRAs are open to complaints and have a proper way of dealing with them. The other limb to the argument relates to the role of the Financial Ombudsman Service. The noble Lord is suggesting an extension to the remit of the FOS in terms of businesses, which is a considerable change that you would contemplate only as part of a larger possible review of the role of the FOS in terms of businesses more generally. This is a very narrow area, and to extend the remit of the FOS in respect of firms just for this, and to nothing else, would look slightly odd.
Amendment 25 relates to the definition of small and medium-sized businesses. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Flight, that I was unable to be here for the earlier discussion broadly around this issue. The definition that he is suggesting is the one used by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs for the purposes of the research and development tax credit. Although I hear his arguments, I would point out that the £100 million figure is very much the outlier in terms of accepted definitions of SMEs. The definition used by HMRC for R&D tax credits is tailored to that one specific policy and flows from the fact that most research and development is done by larger companies. I do not believe that it would be appropriate here.
The turnover figure used in the current definition in Clause 7 is widely accepted as the threshold for an SME. It is used in the Companies Act, by the Bank of England for reporting purposes, and for the Funding for Lending scheme. It is used by various government schemes such as the lending appeals process and is used by the British Business Bank. There is no rationale for dramatically expanding it to businesses with a turnover of up to £100 million. As noble Lords will be aware, these measures are designed to address market failures that disproportionately affect the smallest businesses: namely, a lack of credit information and a lack of awareness of alternatives. These problems do not affect larger companies in the same way. The Government have proposed and consulted on a measure aimed at small and medium-sized businesses. This amendment would go considerably beyond that.
The existing simpler definition in the Bill, based on turnover, mirrors that used by the Bank of England. We believe that it is the most appropriate definition for legislation that applies to banks as they have visibility of the turnover through the company’s primary account and are already used to applying the similar definition used for the Funding for Lending scheme. I would note, however, that even larger companies outside the definition of SME businesses will benefit from the measures in the Bill. For example, a larger company will still be able to apply directly to a designated platform to seek a finance provider. The Government therefore consider that the existing turnover threshold of £25 million is the appropriate place to draw the line for the legislation. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will be willing to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Leigh of Hurley
I thank my noble friend the Minister. I hear what he says but I would make the point that, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, we are entering uncharted waters here. We really do not know how this will work. My amendment would therefore allow for the possibility that the system was not working well, with unhappy companies that want to borrow money the second time around finding the system to be too complex and too much of a muddle and being hassled, shall we say, by too many finance providers. It would simply allow the Treasury the option to suggest that advisers are included in their options. I would encourage the Minister to reflect upon that, but for now I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
National Insurance Contributions Bill
Lord Newby Excerpts(9 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Newby
“Secondary Class 1 contributions: apprentices under 25Zero-rate secondary Class 1 contributions for apprentices under 25
(1) SSCBA 1992 is amended as follows.
(2) In section 9 (calculation of secondary Class 1 contributions), in subsection (1A), after paragraph (a) insert—
“(aa) if section 9B below (zero-rate secondary Class 1 contributions for certain apprentices) applies to the earnings, 0%;”.(3) In section 9A (the age-related secondary percentage), after subsection (1) insert—
“(1A) But this section does not apply to those earnings so far as section 9B below (zero-rate secondary Class 1 contributions for certain apprentices) applies to them.”
(4) After section 9A insert—
“9B Zero-rate secondary Class 1 contributions for certain apprentices
(1) Where a secondary Class 1 contribution is payable as mentioned in section 6(1)(b) above, this section applies to the earnings paid in the tax week, in respect of the employment in question, if the earner is a relevant apprentice in relation to that employment.
(2) An earner is a “relevant apprentice”, in relation to an employment, if the earner—
(a) is aged under 25, and(b) is employed, in the employment, as an apprentice.(3) For the purposes of this Act a person is still to be regarded as being liable to pay a secondary Class 1 contribution even if the amount of the contribution is £0 because this section applies to the earnings in question.
(4) The Treasury may by regulations provide that, in relation to relevant apprentices, there is to be for every tax year an upper secondary threshold for secondary Class 1 contributions.
That threshold is to be the amount specified for that year by regulations made by the Treasury.(5) Subsections (4) and (5) of section 5 above (which confer power to prescribe an equivalent of a secondary threshold in relation to earners paid otherwise than weekly), and subsection (6) of that section as it applies for the purposes of those subsections, apply for the purposes of an upper secondary threshold in relation to relevant apprentices as they apply for the purposes of a secondary threshold.
(6) Subsection (7) applies if—
(a) a secondary Class 1 contribution is payable as mentioned in section 6(1)(b) above,(b) the earnings paid in the tax week, in respect of the employment in question, exceed the current upper secondary threshold (or the prescribed equivalent) in relation to relevant apprentices, and(c) the earner is a relevant apprentice in relation to the employment.(7) This section does not apply to those earnings so far as they exceed that threshold (or the prescribed equivalent) (“the excess earnings”) and, accordingly, for the purposes of section 9(1) above the relevant percentage in respect of the excess earnings is the secondary percentage.
(8) But the Treasury may by regulations modify the effect of subsection (7) in a case in which the earner falls within an age group specified in column 1 of the table in section 9A(3) above.
(9) In subsection (2)(b) “apprentice” has such meaning as the Treasury may prescribe.
(10) The Treasury may by regulations amend subsection (2)(a) so as to alter the age that an earner must be in order to be a relevant apprentice (and regulations under this subsection may have the effect of allowing anyone who is of an age at which secondary Class 1 contributions are payable to be a relevant apprentice).”
(5) In section 176(1)(a) (regulations subject to affirmative procedure), after “section 9A(7);” insert—
“section 9B(4), (8) or (10);”.
(6) SSCB(NI)A 1992 is amended as follows.
(7) In section 9 (calculation of secondary Class 1 contributions), in subsection (1A), after paragraph (a) insert—
“(aa) if section 9B below (zero-rate secondary Class 1 contributions for certain apprentices) applies to the earnings, 0%;”.(8) In section 9A (the age-related secondary percentage), after subsection (1) insert—
“(1A) But this section does not apply to those earnings so far as section 9B below (zero-rate secondary Class 1 contributions for certain apprentices) applies to them.”
(9) After section 9A insert—
“9B Zero-rate secondary Class 1 contributions for certain apprentices
(1) Where a secondary Class 1 contribution is payable as mentioned in section 6(1)(b) above, this section applies to the earnings paid in the tax week, in respect of the employment in question, if the earner is a relevant apprentice in relation to that employment.
(2) An earner is a “relevant apprentice”, in relation to an employment, if the earner—
(a) is aged under 25, and(b) is employed, in the employment, as an apprentice.(3) For the purposes of this Act a person is still to be regarded as being liable to pay a secondary Class 1 contribution even if the amount of the contribution is £0 because this section applies to the earnings in question.
(4) The Treasury may by regulations provide that, in relation to relevant apprentices, there is to be for every tax year an upper secondary threshold for secondary Class 1 contributions.
That threshold is to be the amount specified for that year by regulations made by the Treasury.(5) Subsections (4) and (5) of section 5 above (which confer power to prescribe an equivalent of a secondary threshold in relation to earners paid otherwise than weekly), and subsection (6) of that section as it applies for the purposes of those subsections, apply for the purposes of an upper secondary threshold in relation to relevant apprentices as they apply for the purposes of a secondary threshold.
(6) Subsection (7) applies if—
(a) a secondary Class 1 contribution is payable as mentioned in section 6(1)(b) above,(b) the earnings paid in the tax week, in respect of the employment in question, exceed the current upper secondary threshold (or the prescribed equivalent) in relation to relevant apprentices, and(c) the earner is a relevant apprentice in relation to the employment.(7) This section does not apply to those earnings so far as they exceed that threshold (or the prescribed equivalent) (“the excess earnings”) and, accordingly, for the purposes of section 9(1) above the relevant percentage in respect of the excess earnings is the secondary percentage.
(8) But the Treasury may by regulations modify the effect of subsection (7) in a case in which the earner falls within an age group specified in column 1 of the table in section 9A(3) above.
(9) In subsection (2)(b) “apprentice” has such meaning as the Treasury may prescribe.
(10) The Treasury may by regulations amend subsection (2)(a) so as to alter the age that an earner must be in order to be a relevant apprentice (and regulations under this subsection may have the effect of allowing anyone who is of an age at which secondary Class 1 contributions are payable to be a relevant apprentice).”
(10) In section 172(11A) (regulations subject to affirmative procedure), after “9A(7),” insert “section 9B(4), (8) or (10),”.
(11) The amendments made by this section come into force—
(a) for the purposes of making regulations under section 9B of SSCBA 1992 or section 9B of SSCB(NI)A 1992, at the end of the period of 2 months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed, and(b) for remaining purposes, on 6 April 2016.”
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, in Committee, I outlined the Government’s intention to table an amendment to give effect to the important initiative regarding apprentices announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Autumn Statement on 3 December. I now move this amendment to the Bill. As noble Lords will be aware, the Chancellor announced that the Government will abolish employer class 1 national insurance contributions for apprentices under the age of 25 from April 2016. This builds on the removal of employer class 1 national insurance contributions for all under-21 year-olds from April 2015.
Amendments to Section 9 and new Section 9B of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 and the Social Security Contributions and Benefits (Northern Ireland) Act 1992 give effect to the Government’s intention to abolish employer class 1 NICs for apprentices under the age of 25 from April 2016 by introducing a zero rate of secondary class 1 NICs for employers of apprentices under the age of 25 on the earnings of those employees. The zero rate will apply to earnings below the upper earnings limit.
As the Chancellor made clear, apprenticeships are at the heart of the Government’s drive to equip people of all ages with the skills valued by employers. This measure is intended to support employers who provide apprenticeships to young people by removing the requirement that they pay secondary class 1 NICs on earnings up to the upper earnings limit for those employees. The measure is also intended to support youth employment. Under this Government, employment is at its highest ever level while unemployment is now lower than when they came into power. However, there is still more to do. The Government will provide a zero rate of employer’s class 1 NICs on the earnings of apprentices under the age of 25 from 6 April 2016. The measure will apply both to new and existing apprentices aged under 25 and is not time-limited.
The first main feature of the new clause is that there is a regulation-making power to define “apprentice”. There are existing statutory definitions relating to apprenticeships. For example, in England and Wales, the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 introduces the concept of an “apprenticeship agreement”, which is defined in part with reference to an apprentice. Because education and training is a devolved matter, and not all apprentices are employed under apprenticeship agreements, we will need to look at the approaches taken towards apprenticeships in the different devolved Administrations. The power will allow time to discuss the definition with stakeholders such as the Skills Funding Agency and its devolved equivalents. The power will also enable us to respond simply to changing statutory definitions and requirements in the future.
Secondly, there are regulation-making powers to vary the age group to which the zero rate of secondary class 1 NICs for apprentices applies. For example, the Government could in the future allow for an increase in the age bracket of apprentices falling into the zero rate band of secondary class 1 NICs. Thirdly, there is a regulation-making power to ensure that the benefit of the zero rate of secondary class 1 NICs for apprentices can be enjoyed only in respect of earnings below a certain level. In other words, the power will provide a means to introduce an upper secondary threshold for apprentices in the same way as we are doing for under-21 year-olds. This threshold will be set at the level of the upper earnings limit in the 2016-17 tax year.
The Government believe that this measure, alongside other initiatives on apprenticeships and the abolition of employer’s NICs for under-21s from April 2015, will help to address the problem of youth unemployment in the UK. I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, I begin with an expression of gratitude to the Minister. As he indicated in his speech, he was kind enough in Committee to indicate the thrust of amendments that would be tabled on Report. He duly fulfilled that promise. Therefore, when I received his letter dated 22 December—I give the House the opportunity to imagine just when I settled down to read this letter—it did not cause quite the degree of consternation that the Minister might have thought. It was not an unfortunate Christmas present but merely confirmed that the Government were in fact carrying out their intentions with regard to the Bill. Therefore, I thank him for his letter, timely as it was.
As we indicated at Second Reading and in Committee, we are supportive of the broad intent of the Bill and the form of the NICs position. We welcome the particular amendment, but nevertheless have some anxieties which I hope the Minister will assuage. What will be the level of scrutiny to ensure that this change to the NICs position in order to encourage apprenticeships does not result in a rerun in apprenticeships of some of the aspects we have seen of the Government’s obvious enormous delight in the number of self-employed people?
We are all too well aware that the increase in self-employment conceals in many respects great difficulty for people who cannot get work in any other way, so they engage in the most risky process of advancing and safeguarding their lifestyle. What reassurances can the Minister give that this extension of the reduction in national insurance contributions will not lead to unscrupulous employers using this strategy in order to reduce the taxation that ought to be paid?
The Minister must know that there are certain areas where self-employment is very significant. We should mention in particular the construction industry. All of us in the House recognise that that industry has particular patterns of labour engagement—that goes without saying. Nevertheless, we also know that evasion can be carried out with regard to taxation in this respect. The noble Lord must appreciate that the addition which this legislation presents as regards the under-25s, for example, might lead to difficulties.
The Government are passing this Bill without a clear definition of “apprenticeship”; they say that they are working on it. In due course a definition will be introduced in legislation which the Government say will meet the requirements. It is to be subject to secondary legislation at a date that is certainly some way in the future. Given that the Government are emphasising the importance of apprenticeships in this Bill, we would have hoped that the Minister would have got some way towards defining the term.
I can give him some illustrations of what a proper definition of apprenticeship might look like. It might indicate that the apprenticeship should normally last for two or three years at the least. It might indicate that apprentices should be new entrants to the area of work rather than existing employees. The fact that the Government have made no real attempt during the passage of the Bill to address these issues means that we fear that what they will do with it, if they have the chance, will reflect their present activities; namely, that a great number of apprenticeships involve merely rebranding workers who are already at a place of work and calling them apprentices without identifying what the skills acquisition and development actually involves.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I am glad the Labour Party intends to address this when it forms the next Administration—if it ever does—but it would have done better to have addressed it when it formed the last.
As far as evasion is concerned, there is no evidence that employers will seek to use this measure to, for example, claim that a large number—or any number—of their staff are apprentices who are not actually apprentices. They will be required to meet the conditions of the regulations. The regulations that we are setting out in secondary legislation will include, at the least, an accredited form of training—for example by the Skills Funding Agency or its devolved equivalents. Employers will need to be able to confirm to HMRC that the employee in question is indeed an apprentice. The conditions will be designed in such a way that it will be easy for employers to provide verification if asked by HMRC on a routine compliance visit. The bull point is that there is no evidence whatever, circumstantial or otherwise, that employers either have been or will seek to use this relief, or existing funding schemes for apprentices, to get an unfair benefit.
The noble Lord asked about definitions and why we have not included a definition of apprenticeships in the Bill. As I said, there is a definition of “apprentice” in the 2009 Act, which is the starting point for the definition that we propose to put into secondary legislation. We have to consult with and seek the agreement of the devolved Administrations, which will take a little time. There is also an advantage in having an ability to amend the definition, which is obviously easier to do in secondary legislation, rather than in having a very detailed definition in the Bill.
We obviously share the noble Lord’s concern that the quality of apprentices and apprenticeships should be as high as possible, and we have worked very hard to ensure that. The principal way that we have been doing it is through supporting so-called Trailblazers, which are employer-led apprenticeship standards and assessment approaches. More than 1,000 employers, in more than 75 sectors, have been involved in those; 73 standards have been approved and published and more than 75 new standards are in development. These cover a wide range of sectors, from fashion to nuclear, law, banking and the Armed Forces.
The first apprenticeship starts under the new, improved standards began in September last year and the programme will continue. Our aim is that from 2017-18, all apprenticeship starts will be on the new standards. I hope that that will go some way to reassure the noble Lord that we are as concerned as he is to drive up the quality of apprenticeships so that young people—or indeed people of any age—taking part in them will get something of real value to themselves and to the economy more generally. I hope that I have been able to answer the noble Lord’s questions.
Lord Newby
“(5A) A statutory instrument containing (with or without other provision) regulations under this section that amend or repeal a provision of an Act may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.”
Lord Newby
My Lords, as I mentioned in Grand Committee on Monday 15 December, the Government are bringing forward four minor technical amendments to Clause 2 and Schedule 1, which deal with simplifying the collection of class 2 NICs payable by the self-employed.
Amendments 2 and 3 are the Government’s response to the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee on the delegated powers contained in the Bill, which was published on 27 November. The report drew to the attention of the House the power in Clause 2 to amend primary and secondary legislation as a consequence of the reform of class 2 NICs. This power is currently subject to the negative procedure. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee said that in its view the justification given in HMRC’s delegated powers memorandum was not sufficient for the negative procedure to apply where the power allows for the amendment or repeal of primary legislation, and recommended that in this instance the power should be subject to the affirmative procedure. I can confirm that the Government have considered and acted on the report of the Delegated Powers Committee. Amendment 2 provides that regulations made under Clause 2 which amend or repeal primary legislation are to be subject to the affirmative procedure. Amendment 3 provides that the negative procedure will continue to apply to any use of the power set out in Clause 2 where a statutory instrument does not contain any regulations modifying primary legislation.
Amendments 4 and 5 are minor and technical amendments that the Government intend should be made to the draft legislation in the Bill that deals with simplifying the collection of class 2 NICs payable by the self-employed. Amendment 4 amends Schedule 1 to the Bill, which inserts new Section 11A into the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992. This is being made to ensure that the relevant self-assessment—SA—penalties apply to class 2 contributions collected through self-assessment by adding a missing reference to the self-assessment underdeclaration penalty contained in Schedule 24 to the Finance Act 2007. It was always the Government’s intention to align penalties for class 2 contributions more closely with those for SA as part of the reform of class 2 so that the self-employed are not subject to two different regimes, but this particular penalty was unintentionally omitted. Amendment 5 makes a corresponding amendment to the Social Security Contributions and Benefits (Northern Ireland) Act 1992. I hope that noble Lords will feel able to support these minor amendments.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I have not the slightest difficulty in commenting favourably on technical Amendments 3, 4 and 5, which of course I understand the necessity for. I am glad the Government have brought them forward. Nor am I against Amendment 2—far from it, I am very much in favour of Amendment 2.
I merely draw to the attention of the House the very credible work of our colleagues in the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which drew this issue to the attention of the Government in a way that gave them just sufficient time before Christmas to get their act together and indicate that they were going to table amendments on Report to give effect to the committee’s recommendation, which is to ensure that such a significant part of the legislation should be subject to the affirmative procedure and therefore much closer and more effective scrutiny in Parliament than the negative procedure. I am very much in favour of Amendment 2 and I congratulate our colleagues. I am sure the whole House is very appreciative of the work that is done by the committee. Once again it has done something that the House can take great pleasure in approving.
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
“( ) Schedule 24 to the Finance Act 2007 (penalties for errors);”
Childcare Payments Bill
Lord Newby Excerpts(9 years, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Shephard of Northwold
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what specific estimates they have made of the impact of the Childcare Payments Bill on maternal employment rates and the level of income tax paid by working mothers.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, the Government expect a positive impact on both participation in employment and hours worked as a result of the Childcare Payments Act, although it is not currently possible to quantify this, given the lack of recent literature evidence for the UK. Further evaluation of the evidence around employment effects can be found in the recently published updated impact assessment available on the parliament.uk website.
Baroness Shephard of Northwold (Con)
I thank my noble friend for his typically detailed reply. I wonder whether he is aware that the Select Committee on Affordable Childcare, on which I serve, has been requesting an answer to that question from the Treasury for some months. The committee has been deeply disappointed by his department’s apparent inability—refusal, even—to provide a Minister to give evidence before it, even though the Exchequer Secretary has specific and named responsibility for childcare, women and the economy. Would my noble friend, whose own accountability credentials are impeccable, care to comment on his department’s understanding of parliamentary accountability, it being the season of good will?
Lord Newby
Thank you for that. My Lords, it is standard practice that Treasury Ministers appear before only the Treasury Committee and the Lords Economic Affairs Committee when specific Treasury policy leads. I personally regret that, but I failed completely to get my Treasury colleagues to see the error of their ways.
Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)
My Lords, I, too, declare an interest as a member of the Affordable Childcare Committee. Does the Minister agree that matters of children and families should be cross-departmental as well as cross-party? Does he not therefore think it disgraceful that the Affordable Childcare Committee could not attract a Minister or anyone from the Treasury to comment on our proceedings? We lack its expertise on that.
Lord Newby
My Lords, as I said, I have considerable sympathy with the noble Baroness’s view. However, when I was on the Economic Affairs Sub-Committee on the Finance Bill, not only did the Treasury refuse under Gordon Brown to send a Minister, it refused to send officials or to answer a detailed letter.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
My Lords, I also declare an interest as a member of the committee. Does my noble friend share my concern that, during our deliberations looking at the effect of childcare affordability and availability on maternal employment, we found that there was a distinct lack of research on where the tipping points are for families when they make a decision about whether both parents should work? In the light of that concern, does my noble friend share our frustration that we could not get a Minister there? The Department for Education provided an excellent Minister, who gave us a lot of answers to questions that arose out of his evidence, and that is the advantage of having a Minister in front of you. We did not have the opportunity to do that with the Treasury.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I absolutely take that point. However, as my noble friend will be aware, the chairman of the committee wrote to my honourable friend and she replied to the chairman of the committee a couple of days ago, I hope giving useful information which will be for the benefit of the committee.
Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)
My Lords, on the issue of childcare, as chairman of a civic welfare and benefits group in Scotland, along with my colleagues in the churches, trade unions, local authorities and charities I visited a food bank in Drumchapel last week. We were informed there that over 25% of the clients were working poor, mostly women with childcare needs. That supports research for the Joseph Rowntree Foundation which stated last year that there were more working poor in the UK than non-working poor households. Given that situation, if the Government are to live up to their rhetoric of helping hard-working families, is there not a case for Iain Duncan Smith—who, incidentally, visited Drumchapel—to look at this situation urgently so that we can indeed help the working poor and so that the Government can live up to their promises?
Lord Newby
My Lords, the Government are doing a whole raft of things to help the working poor. One of the main reasons why the working poor are quite so poor is that they are not working as many hours as they would like to work. One of the interesting findings from recent survey evidence is that nearly a quarter of employed mothers said that they would increase their working hours if they could arrange reliable, convenient, affordable and good-quality childcare. Many of those are exactly the kind of parents to whom the noble Lord referred.
Lord Higgins (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend will be aware that Treasury Ministers also refused to appear in front of the ad hoc Select Committee on Personal Service Companies, even though that was clearly a Treasury responsibility, and officials were not allowed to appear either. Is this not clearly, whatever the previous precedents might have been, a totally unsatisfactory situation if we are to hold the Government to account? Therefore, if my noble friend cannot persuade Treasury Ministers, should we not have a meeting between the Liaison Committee or the Leader of the House and the Chancellor of the Exchequer? We really cannot go on having matters that we are investigating, which are Treasury matters, with Treasury Ministers refusing to appear or allowing their officials to do so.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I would personally welcome any measures that would put more pressure on my Treasury colleagues to appear before your Lordships’ House.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)
My Lords, on the practical aspects of this Question, does the Minister agree that it is important that not only should the Government support working parents with the cost of childcare, they should also look at ways to help improve access to flexible childcare? What action are the Government taking in this very important respect?
Lord Newby
My Lords, the key thing is to increase both the quantity and the quality of the childcare that is available. A welcome development is the fact that a larger number of primary schools are now providing nursery places. Also, the Government have been supporting, by way of grant, individuals to set up as childminders, as a result of which there are now several tens of thousands more places available than was the case a couple of years ago.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, it may be the season of good will, but there is not much good will on the part of the Government to women. Will he confirm that 85% of the additional cash received by the Government through changes to direct taxes and benefits is in fact obtained from women?
Lord Newby
My Lords, that is a figure I have never heard and do not recognise. I would just remind the noble Lord that more women are now in work than ever before, that there is better support in terms of free childcare for young children, that free school meals are provided for all children at a young age and that the pupil premium means, in effect, that families with several young children now get several thousand pounds-worth of direct benefit each year. None of these things obtained under the previous Administration.