The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)
The first point to make is that the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), who has responsibility for employment, apologises wholeheartedly for not being here today. As the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) said at the start of the debate, the Minister had been on his way back from Glasgow, where he had been meeting Work programme providers in Scotland, when his plane had to turn back because of engine problems. That is why he could not be here, and he apologises for that. He very much wanted to answer this debate, and I know that the Department, at his request, asked whether it could be rescheduled so that he could answer it himself. He was told that that was not possible. The only person who could withdraw today’s debate was the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton, but he did not do so. I understand that had he done so, he would not necessarily have had it rescheduled, so I am here to speak on behalf of my ministerial colleague.
The Minister of State engages widely and continuously with a range of people on the work capability assessment. In the past few months alone, he has met people from a range of charities, including the National Autistic Society, Mencap, Mind, the Mental Health Foundation, the Scottish Association for Mental Health, Citizens Advice, Scope and many others. As I said, he was in Scotland earlier today meeting people from the Work programme. He has also met people from a range of medical organisations, including the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the British Medical Association, and the president of the Royal College of Radiologists.
All Ministers regularly correspond with fellow MPs about the work capability assessment and we have recently written to all MPs on this matter. I can confirm that the Minister of State has had extensive correspondence with the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), one of the attendees at the proposed meeting. The Minister of State has responded to almost 100 parliamentary questions from the hon. Gentleman, many on the work capability assessment or Atos, over the past six months alone. We are grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s interest and that of others, and we are keen to maintain a constructive dialogue about how we might further improve the WCA. Many meetings with stakeholder organisations or individuals can be challenging; the WCA elicits strong views and is not always fully understood. On occasion mistakes have been made, but we are always open to constructive stakeholder engagement. Since taking on his role, the Minister of State has engaged with organisations that have been critical of the Department and has done so even if they have intervened in judicial reviews against the Department—he has still had those meetings.
Mr Meacher
I have listened to all that the Minister says and I accept it, but the key point in this debate is: why is the Minister of State not prepared to see Spartacus? Spartacus is, by any standards, a leading organisation of sick and disabled people which is supported by thousands. Why is he prepared to see all the other organisations but not Spartacus?
Esther McVey
I will address that point later in this debate. What is key, and what the Minister of State felt was key, is a constructive dialogue. He has consistently said several things about the WCA since taking up his role. It has to be made clear—one would not necessarily take this from today’s debate—that he inherited the WCA from the previous Labour Government. We would not necessarily know that from listening to this debate. We have been committed to improving it. We want changes to happen, wherever possible, in collaboration with the people who know most about it and who are affected by it. The Minister of State made those points in the debate on 17 January, but it is worth reiterating them today. They are the core principles that drive much of the Department’s work on the WCA and will remain so. Since taking office we have made the WCA more sensitive and less mechanistic, successfully implementing a number of challenging reforms to it.
The independent reviews of the WCA are obviously one of our key drivers for positive change. Professor Harrington has had extensive interaction with a wide variety of stakeholders, including individuals, lobby organisations, MPs across all parties, and the staff in the Department for Work and Pensions and Atos who are affected by the changes resulting from his work. Professor Harrington listened to all of the concerns raised and made recommendations based on the evidence provided. His interpretation was that mental health conditions are difficult to assess and he recommended the positioning of mental function champions within Atos. We have listened and a network of champions is now in place to provide advice and support to other health care professionals. He also recommended that we put decision makers back at the heart of the system and ensure they are empowered to make independent and considered decisions, which we have done.
Professor Harrington spotted a gap in our relationships with clinical experts—
Esther McVey
I will give way once I have finished this point, so that I can get the point across.
Professor Harrington spotted a gap in our relationships with clinical experts and concluded we were not consulting them enough on the guidance and training materials used by Atos health care professionals. We have responded by putting a process in place to engage clinical expertise. That is still in its early days but we are determined to make it work. I could go on, but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman.
John McDonnell
Will the Minister not just answer the question? Why not this group? What is wrong with this group? Why does the Minister of State discriminate specifically against this group?
Esther McVey
I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is keen to get his point on the record and, as I said, I was coming to that. The key reason I was mentioning constructive dialogue was that I was setting the question in the context of all the people the Minister of State has met, regularly meets and will continue to meet. We are determined to carry on that engagement.
As the point has been raised and as I believe that both the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton and the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) voted for the work capability assessment and were in the party whose Government created the work capability assessment, let me say that it is this Government who are picking up the pieces, holding reviews and making it a far more workable benefit. That point has not been raised at all today.
The right hon. Gentleman talked about the letter and the correspondence. The letter was replied to within the 20 working days set out by Cabinet Office protocol. That is what I have been told today. It is clear that constructive—
Mr Meacher
I realise that the Under-Secretary has been brought in at the last minute, but that is not correct. My letter was dated 31 January and the letter from the Minister of State is dated 5 March, but I am not bothered about the technicalities of keeping to civil service rules about replies to letters. I want to know why Spartacus has been excluded when all the other organisations she has mentioned are being included. She keeps talking about constructive engagement, so why not engage with probably the most effective organisation of all?
Esther McVey
I will get to that. I have just had it confirmed that the letter was received on 5 February and the reply was set out on the date I mentioned.
Esther McVey
Actually, I was mentioning the constructive dialogue and what was important in the context of why my hon. Friend the Minister of State felt unable to meet that group. I understand that his diary was under immense pressure, but he had rescheduled things and was going to have a meeting, but he did not necessarily feel that the dialogue would be constructive because of the words used by Spartacus in this regard:
“The WCA is a statement of political desperation. The process is reminiscent of the medical tribunals that returned shell shocked and badly wounded soldiers to duty in the first world war or the ‘KV-machine’, the medical commission the Nazis used in the second world war to play down wounds so that soldiers could be reclassified ‘fit for the Eastern front’.”
Because of that wording, my hon. Friend felt that there would not be a constructive dialogue. What he was seeking from the many other people whom he had met was not just criticism—one has to take criticism on the chin—but a constructive dialogue to establish what those groups thought could be done better and how we could adjust the assessment. None of that had ever been forthcoming, for which reason—
Esther McVey
Please allow me to finish the sentence—for which reason he had not thus far had the meeting. However, if there were to be constructive dialogue and positive outcomes from the meeting, I am sure my hon. Friend would meet the group, but given the tone of the remarks that I quoted, he did not think that that would be the best way forward.
Mr Meacher
We have finally got to the explanation. I could have been given this a lot earlier. The Spartacus report is about 100 pages long—perhaps slightly under 100 pages. The quote that the hon. Lady has given was one sentence in it. I agree that it is strong language; it is the language of exasperation, hurt and anger, but the idea that the Minister should refuse to see a delegation simply because of the use of such language is absurd. Politicians are a bit tougher than that. If he disagrees with it, he can speak his own mind to members of the delegation directly. They have engaged constructively and they expect the Minister to respond.
Esther McVey
I hoped the right hon. Gentleman would reject and condemn such language so that the group can start on a clearer, more open way forward and have a discussion in a positive light with, as I said, constructive dialogue. That would be a positive place to start.
Those comments are at odds with what Professor Harrington himself has stated. He has said that, although there is more to do, the work capability assessment is the right concept and the Department can be proud of what it has achieved so far in improving the assessment. Our response to the latest independent review made it clear that we agree with his views and that we are committed to continue to improve the assessment.
Esther McVey
All of us can see that that is a positive statement on which to move forward.
Esther McVey
I will not give way on that point. We have implemented those recommendations. [Interruption.] We took on a very poorly designed assessment from the Labour Government and we have done significant work to get it right.
Furthermore, although the Spartacus report on the work capability assessment—the so-called people’s review—reflects what are clearly strongly held views, it is a collection of anecdotal accounts. It fails to recognise the improvements made to the WCA since 2010—[Interruption.]
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. Mr McDonnell, I know you are frustrated but you must not behave in this manner. Please allow the Minister to finish her remarks.
Mr Deputy Speaker
I think the House accepts your apology and hopes that the Minister will be allowed to finish her remarks in silence.
Esther McVey
I think that we all suffer frustration; I do because I inherited something that was clearly unworkable and that we have had to spend more than two years trying to get right. We will continue trying to get it right. That is what we are doing and I ask the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington to concentrate on that.
Finally, we have also invited the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton to have a constructive talk with Atos to look at what we could do. I believe that he declined an invitation to discuss the changes that would improve the position. He dismissed the Atos invitation as something that would not achieve anything and he condemned the work capability assessment and Atos. I believe that we all have something to learn from this and that we must all work together constructively.
Mr Meacher
I refused that offer because the descriptors, the regulations and the guidance had been passed down to Atos Healthcare, as the agents of the Government, from the Department for Work and Pensions. It is the Department that is responsible, not Atos Healthcare.
Esther McVey
Then I would say that there is much for us all to learn, whether that means the right hon. Gentleman agreeing to meet Atos or the Department agreeing to meet Spartacus, but I conclude that the approach must be constructive, because I believe, as we all do, that we want to get this right for the most vulnerable people in society.
Question put and agreed to.