Baroness Janke
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress has been made on devolution of services and powers in England; and what work has been done to provide a basis for a future Government to advance that agenda.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, the Government are committed to devolving greater spending powers. We have created local enterprise partnerships giving power to local councils and businesses, agreed city deals with 27 cities and invested £7 billion in local areas through growth deals. Devolution deals have been agreed with Manchester and Sheffield and, looking ahead, the Government are open to discussing proposals with any area which would welcome increased powers and greater freedoms to maximise their economic growth.
Baroness Janke (LD)
I thank the Minister for her Answer and very much welcome these developments. However, given that the current arrangements that the Government have made fall short of fiscal devolution, is she aware that an additional £8 million could be added to national income if financial and other powers were devolved? Does she consider that a key priority of the new Government should be to move forward on fiscal devolution?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, it will be for a future Government to decide whether they want to move forward with fiscal devolution. However, as regards business rates retention, £11 billion has been retained in local areas.
Lord Morgan (Lab)
My Lords, has not one of the problems with our arrangements been that our constitutional changes have been very piecemeal and haphazard? Should not the excellent suggestions of the noble Baroness be considered side by side with proposals for further devolution, fiscal and otherwise, for Scotland and Wales, preferably in a constitutional convention, as has been so wisely proposed by the leader of the Labour Party?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, we have had a Silk commission, a McKay commission and a Calman commission. We are not currently contemplating a further convention. There is no particular demand for it—
Baroness Williams of Trafford
From the public, my Lords. We are moving to a more decentralised system within England through city deals and devolution deals. The devolution deals are confined not just to cities.
Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve (CB)
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that by doing separate bits of devolution for the separate devolved nations we do not make progress towards retaining the United Kingdom, we risk its dissolution?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, this Question is around devolution in England rather than devolution to England and is confined purely to the local government aspect.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
Does my noble friend agree that, before embarking on further devolution in England/to England, it would be a good idea to have a system of fair funding throughout the United Kingdom, and to deal with Barnett and have funding based on need?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, that is what this Government are working towards in terms of fair funding across the country and ensuring growth in those regions that have not previously had as much growth as we would wish.
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister talks about empowering northern cities in particular and devolving responsibilities, but is it not the case that the Government have consistently hit areas such as Liverpool and Manchester, some of the most deprived parts of the country, with the largest cuts in funding? What is empowering about taking with one hand and giving back far less with the other?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, after talking to local government leaders in both Liverpool and Manchester I know they are very pleased with what this Government have given them. If we just look back over the last 30 years we see that it was a Conservative Minister in the form of the then Michael Heseltine who did so much work in Liverpool. It was a Conservative Minister in the form of the then Michael Heseltine who led the regeneration of Hulme, who brought the Metrolink to Manchester and, indeed, who started the regeneration of Manchester after the bomb. I do not accept the noble Lord’s point.
Lord Tebbit (Con)
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to my noble friend for having drawn a distinction between decentralisation and devolution. Devolution we do not need—for who needs another layer of government, another load of paid politicians and another load of hangers-on, all swinging on the taxpayers’ wallets?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My noble friend, as always, hits the nail on the head. I could not have put it more articulately.
Lord Elis-Thomas (PC)
My Lords, during my time spent in both Houses of Parliament campaigning for devolution in Wales, I always thought that devolution for England—especially the north of England, which I dearly love, being my nearest region—was part of the project. Therefore, has not the time come for all us devolutionists within this kingdom to recognise that without the liberation of England, there is no future for the United Kingdom?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Tebbit said, this is about decentralisation rather than devolution to England. I would just reiterate my previous point.
Lord Richard (Lab)
My Lords, I thought I detected something in what the Minister said a little earlier. Can she assure the House that she meant it when she said that the Government were working towards the abolition of the Barnett formula and its replacement by one based on need? That is what she said. Did she mean it?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, in terms of devolution in England—decentralisation in England—as local authorities and groups of local authorities take on their share of public funding, Barnett will actually change in terms of its distribution.
Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)
My Lords, the noble Baroness has referred to various partnerships and deals. Is there not a gap, in terms of direct democracy, in dealing with that which is supposedly devolved in these areas?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, in terms of the first devolution deal, which is in Greater Manchester, the arrangements and relationships between the local authorities have been well established for over three decades. In terms of local engagement, the election of a mayor as the person accountable to government will add clarity to it.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Baroness has not explained fully her remark about the Barnett formula. The Barnett formula allocates public funds between the countries of the United Kingdom. The noble Baroness seemed to imply that allocation between different areas of this country would be revisited. Also, would she take it from me that those who welcome the decentralisation moves do not number among those who are happy with the Government’s formula for allocating resources? Speaking from the north-west, we need an answer.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, this is a Question about England and the point I was making was that Barnett will become less relevant in the future.