Great British Energy Bill

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I really cannot disagree with anything noble Lords have said in this debate, although I do not believe we need an amendment. I utterly agree that nuclear power is essential to the future; it provides the essential baseload; it is safe, secure and reliable. We have great opportunities in the UK to develop nuclear energy and the supply chain, even more than we have now. Obviously, Rolls-Royce, from a UK company point of view, has great potential.

We are keeping a very close eye on Hinkley Point C; the operational date that has been given for the first unit between 2029 and 2031 is very crucial. We are working very hard to get Sizewell C to final investment decision in the next few months. We have the SMR programme, and I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, about the importance and value of the work of Great British Nuclear. We are regularly engaged with GBN, and I pay tribute to the great work that its chair and chief executive are doing.

I have met a number of companies who are very interested in developing AMRs. We have all seen the experience of companies such as Amazon, in the US, linking small modular reactors and advanced modular reactors with data centres; clearly, we wish the UK to be very much part of that. In terms of the UK’s growth agenda, if we combine military and civil nuclear defence requirements, we know that the nuclear skills task force has now estimated that we need about 40,000 extra people in the industry by 2030, and moving on with even more people by the 2040s. This is at once a challenge and a huge opportunity, because the careers that are offered in the nuclear industry are secure and well paid, and it is a very exciting industry to go into.

The noble Lord, Lord Offord, quoted figures from the IEA. Although we have seen a global downturn in nuclear energy, it is right to now talk about a renaissance. At international gatherings, it is pretty clear that there are countries coming back to nuclear, as we are, and other countries that wish to develop nuclear energy for the first time. This is very encouraging; we know that, in terms of popular opinion, there is a much more positive attitude among the public towards nuclear energy.

In saying I do not believe that the amendment is necessary, I do very much embrace the comments of the noble Lords and I can assure them that, in the department, we see nuclear energy as having an essential role for the future.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the Minister for his clarity and unequivocal support of nuclear, and, indeed, for his reply to my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford, who asked a specific question in relation to the GB Energy Bill. GB Energy can, if required, participate in nuclear, but the clear understanding is that discussions are ongoing with GB Nuclear. So I would encourage the Government to continue to clarify what that will look like and how it will be funded going forward.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

If I may come back on that, the noble Lord may have seen that the energy Select Committee had a hearing at which the chair of Great British Energy and then the chair of Great British Nuclear gave evidence. It is clear from what they said that we will have no difficulty at all in establishing a co-operative relationship.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

That is noted. I thank the Minister. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Can I ask my noble friend why the new power station in Somerset is costing four times as much as an identical one in South Korea? Surely this will add to energy costs, not detract from them.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I am not sure which “noble friend” that was aimed at, but I will have a go if the noble Lord likes. I was at the department when we started talking about Hinkley many years ago. Two or three things happened. First, it took an awfully long time to come to a final investment decision. Secondly, EDF thought it could bring a design model from France and place it in Hinkley Point C without having to make design changes. The reality was that it had to make thousands of design changes because of the requirements of the regulatory system in the UK.

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[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

I hope the Committee will forgive me. I was slow on the uptake and should have preceded my noble friend instead of following him. I think doing so is legitimate within the rules of Committee.

I very much support my noble friend Lord Ashcombe’s amendment. The Minister has already made the point that I have the greatest possible reservations about net zero. This is not because I have some tremendous hang-up and that I want to pollute the atmosphere and make the place less liveable than it might otherwise be, but because we are now reaching the point on net zero where the costs are starting to come in and getting very severe indeed. That is why we have to think very closely and carefully about where we go from here.

We have done an awful lot to lower our net emissions into the atmosphere, largely by closing down vast areas of our generation industry, in which coal-fired power stations have now been phased out almost completely. What has happened? We think we are setting a wonderful example to the rest of the world but our net emissions come down and world emissions go up. That is hardly surprising, because the Chinese and the Indians are still building coal-fired power stations. They account for massive amounts of coal-fired energy, which keeps their energy prices low and makes them very competitive with the rest of the world. Are we really going to see a change of heart from China and India? Will they suddenly say, “No, no, we’ve been polluting the atmosphere too much and we must now start cleaning everything up and working to net zero”? I do not think they will. They want to keep their competitive position.

That is why it is so essential, to refer back to my noble friend’s amendment, that we continue to accept that we will need oil and gas for much longer than we might originally have thought. The cost of saying we will not explore for any more oil and gas in the North Sea is absolutely massive in terms of jobs for people living in Scotland. The pigeons are starting to come home on all this. That is one of the reasons why I have the greatest possible reservations about driving on towards this net-zero target: the costs are becoming prohibitive. Our energy prices are already higher than almost everybody in Europe. This will cost us jobs and competitiveness in the world generally for years to come.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, one of the joys of debating energy is that, on every occasion, we come back to the substance of the whole argument about energy and where we are going. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ashcombe, for stimulating such an interesting discussion. The noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, in a sense, has brought this into the open. Clearly, it was his Government who signed up to the legislation on net zero by 2050. The last Government, as much as we do, saw the huge risks involved in climate change and the need to take action.

The international position is that, despite what the noble Lord says, the fastest growth in use of renewable energy is occurring in China. The International Energy Agency indicated in its recent renewable energy report that we will see a 2.7 times increase in the use of renewables globally between now and 2030. So, there is a global movement towards clean power and net zero. Yes, it is going at different paces, but we believe the UK can gain great advantage by taking a leadership role. The National Energy System Operator—NESO—has shown that there is a pathway to clean power by 2030. We are now committed to taking that and turning it into an action plan, which I hope we will be able to publish very shortly.

I would not deny that North Sea oil and gas still have important roles to play, and I am of course listening to what noble Lords say about the tax situation and proposals, and the investment issue. Clearly, the Government are in very close discussions with the industry. Our aim is an orderly transition, and that is what we mean to achieve. So we clearly see the value of what happens in the North Sea, and we need it to continue to provide supplies to the UK in the years ahead. Equally, however, we need to manage the transition to clean power and net zero.

On the issue of jobs, obviously, the number of people employed by GBE will not balance out the people who may be lost to the oil and gas industry in the future. This is important. It does not really matter where the chair comes from; the point is that the headquarters of GBE will be firmly based in Aberdeen. I have already referred to the extra 40,000 people we need in nuclear by 2030. If you look at the other sectors we are talking about investing in—CCUS, hydrogen—all of them will need more people. So, the energy sector as a whole will provide a huge number of opportunities, but I accept that, if there is a reduction in the number of people employed in the North Sea, it is our responsibility, with industry, to help manage that transition effectively.

In the end, we may disagree about this, but the Government are confident that we are right to go towards clean power as quickly as possible. We have had endorsement, both from the Committee on Climate Change and the Office for Budget Responsibility, that investing in clean energy now will pay dividends in the long term.

[Lord Ashcombe (Con)]

I am grateful to the Minister and, indeed, to my noble friends. I continue to worry that, as we import LNG, our effective emissions, by passing the problem elsewhere, are significantly higher than they would be using our own production. That is an important fact in this debate. We may have to come back to this issue on Report, but for now, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I support this amendment, but for all sorts of different reasons from those given my noble friend Lady Noakes. I am very worried that this money will be wasted. At the end of the day, there is a whole mass of commercial companies out there that are more than happy to invest in energy projects of one sort or another as long as they show a return. Why we need taxpayers’ money is slightly beyond me. I do not quite understand why that will make a big difference, unless the taxpayers’ money goes into projects that are completely uncommercial and therefore lose money for the taxpayer.

This comes back to the remarks I made earlier about the Government trying to pick winners. They have no record of success on this whatever. Indeed, if Ministers were so good at picking winners, no doubt they would be doing it commercially somewhere else and not bother to be in this place. It worries me that, at the end of the day, they will be left with nothing but the non-commercial aspects of development of energy projects rather than those that work and make money, because if they work and make money, the private sector will invest in them anyway.

I would like to know the Minister’s view on this, because it strikes me that there is a contradiction in terms. There are not going to be a mass of profitable projects that Great British Energy can invest in; there will merely be those that people say are not profitable and do not work. Therefore, the only way of getting them going is to shove taxpayers’ money into them and probably lose it. That is why I support my noble friend’s amendment.

[Lord Cryer (Lab)]

My Lords, before I move on to the substance of the quite extensive amendments, let me say that this has struck me as being a very constructive and interesting debate, with some genuinely deeply interesting contributions. For those of us who served in the House of Commons—I was there for 22 years, and I am fairly new here—what is striking is that the way of working here seems to be that we have confrontation only when it is necessary. For those who do not know, at the other end of the Corridor, it tends to be the other way round; you have confrontation whether you need it or not.

Amendments 35, 36, 37 and 38 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Offord, and the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, seek to understand how the specific mechanism envisaged in this clause might be used and why it represents financial assistance. The Government have committed to capitalise Great British Energy with £8.3 billion, as we are all acutely aware, over this Parliament.

Clause 4 gives the Secretary of State the power to provide financial assistance to Great British Energy—simply put, to allow the Secretary of State to fund the company. Subsection (2)(a) allows the Secretary of State to provide financial assistance in the form of a grant to Great British Energy. That provision might be used while Great British Energy is in its initial set-up phase, and before it can undertake revenue-generating activities. It could also be used in circumstances where the Secretary of State required Great British Energy to undertake non-revenue-generating activities.

At Second Reading, and in conversations inside and outside the Chamber, noble Lords have asked how Great British Energy will be able to raise equity. Subsection (2)(b) allows the Secretary of State to acquire shares in Great British Energy. This will be an important mechanism by which the Secretary of State will fund Great British Energy through this kind of equity injection. This method has been used to fund other public bodies, such as the formerly publicly owned but no longer publicly owned Green Investment Bank.

Great British Energy must be wholly owned by the Crown, so it will not be possible for other parties to acquire shares. Subsection (2)(c) allows the Secretary of State to acquire assets on behalf of Great British Energy. This provision might be used while Great British Energy is in its initial set-up phase, before it can undertake its own acquisitions. It could also be used in circumstances where it might be more appropriate for an asset to sit on the balance sheet of the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero—or DESNZ, to use one of the worst acronyms I have ever heard—rather than on that of Great British Energy.

Subsection (2)(d) allows the Secretary of State to enter into contractual arrangements with Great British Energy. This might be used where Great British Energy acts as an agent of the department under a contractual arrangement; for example, to deliver a support scheme. Subsection (2)(e) allows the Secretary of State to incur expenditure on behalf of Great British Energy, similarly to how I have already set out with regard acquiring assets. This provision might be used while Great British Energy is, again, in its initial set-up phase, before it can undertake its own acquisitions and operations, and/or where it might be more appropriate for expenditure to sit on the balance sheet of DESNZ rather than on that of GBE.

Similar provisions can be found in other legislation; for example, in Sections 320 and Section 129 of the Energy Act 2023, the latter regarding financial assistance in respect of carbon capture and low-carbon hydrogen production. There is therefore nothing unusual about the inclusion of these forms of assistance.

Amendment 39 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, who I am glad to see is now in her place, seeks to make the provisions of Clause 4 regarding the ways in which the Secretary of State can provide financial assistance to GBE subject to a condition that a plan be developed for the transition to clean energy. We must resist this amendment because it is not needed and would produce what could be perceived as an unhelpful result, although I appreciate that the noble Baroness may simply be probing the Government’s priorities in providing financial assistance to GBE. Her amendment would mean that the Secretary of State would have no means of providing funding to GBE until the condition had been met and would, in effect, prevent the company being set up, recruiting any resources or undertaking any of the general activities required to create a new business. This would be a highly unusual provision and would curtail GBE’s ability to operationalise its activities through lack of financial assistance.

We have already set out GBE’s mission and five functions in its founding statement. Its mission is to drive clean energy deployment to boost energy independence, create jobs and ensure that UK taxpayers, bill payers and communities reap the benefits of clean, secure, homegrown energy. I am happy to reassure the noble Baroness that in due course GBE will clearly set out plans as to how it will contribute towards the transition to clean energy and the nature of interventions in specific sectors.

Amendments 40, 41, 42, 44, 45 and 108 are in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Offord. Amendment 40 requires any financial assistance to GBE to be included in the national debt. I am happy to assure the noble Lord that this is the case. Therefore, the amendment is superfluous to the situation. As a company wholly owned by the Secretary of State, GBE will sit fully within the consolidated accounting boundary of DESNZ. It will be on the department’s balance sheet and funds provided to it will be shown transparently through not just GBE but the department. Similarly, investments in projects or businesses made by GBE will also be shown in its annual report and on its balance sheet.

Amendment 41 seeks to require that GBE cannot sell shares without the approval of Parliament. Clause 1 already requires that GBE must be wholly owned by the Crown. It is entirely appropriate for that to be the case and for the Secretary of State to be the sole shareholder—we debated that earlier this evening. GBE will not be able to sell its shares to a third party, so the amendment is not needed.

If the amendment also includes the Secretary of State as a party who may acquire further shares in GBE—which, as set out in Clause 4, is one of the means by which the Secretary of State may provide financial assistance to the company—it is not necessary to require additional parliamentary approval for these individual issuances of share capital, not least because Parliament’s approval is already being sought through the Bill to allow the Secretary of State to provide financial assistance to GBE.

Amendment 42 seeks to limit financial assistance to GBE, above the announced commitment of £8.3 billion, without laying regulations approved by a resolution of each House. I again resist this amendment, as there are existing parliamentary controls and processes if any additional financial assistance were considered for GBE in the future. Any spending of public money requested by the Government must be voted for in the other place. There is an annual process that we are probably all aware of: the estimates cycle. Although I acknowledge that your Lordships’ House has no role in the estimates process directly and passes supply and appropriation Bills without debate, the other place provides the required degree of scrutiny, including the use of Divisions.

Amendment 44 would require the Secretary of State to produce an annual report on all financial assistance provided by GBE and to lay it before Parliament. I resist this amendment because, again, it is unnecessary. The reporting requirements upon GBE are already sufficient to achieve the objective of the noble Lord’s amendment. Detail on any financial assistance received from the Secretary of State will be included in the accounts of GBE, submitted as part of its annual report and accounts, as per its obligations under the Companies Act 2006.

Amendment 45 requires the Secretary of State to make regulations, to be approved by both Houses, to define the conditions that the Secretary of State may impose on financial assistance provided to GBE. I again resist this amendment. It is right that the Secretary of State can set out appropriate conditions for financial assistance provided to the company, but it would create a great deal of inflexibility if the Secretary of State were required to itemise any potential conditions in regulations. Where conditions for financial assistance are occasionally outlined in legislation, these are typically not limiting, as is the case in sections of the Energy Act 2023 relating to Great British Nuclear—GBN. In that case, Section 320 details financial assistance to GBN, and subsections(3)(a) and (3)(b) stipulate some potential conditions. However, that list of conditions is explicitly exhaustive and their application is left to the discretion of the Secretary of State. The Energy Act provides some good examples of the types of conditions that the Secretary of State may decide to put in place for GBE, but it is important that the legislation grants flexibility to the Secretary of State not only to provide financial assistance in any manner but to set any conditions deemed appropriate.

I assure the noble Lord that, while there is a broad power, it will of course be subject to the normal spending and budgeting controls. It will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny through the estimates process and to HM Treasury financial delegation controls, which are applicable to all government departments and tailored to mitigate specific risks, and it will be overseen by the accounting officer of the department, who can be called before various Select Committees, particularly the Public Accounts Committee.

Amendment 108 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Offord, seeks to add a new clause allowing the Secretary of State to limit the ability of GBE to finance itself through borrowing. Noble Lords will be aware that, as a publicly owned company, GBE will not be permitted to borrow money from commercial bodies without explicit permission from His Majesty’s Treasury. Generally, the Exchequer can always borrow money more cheaply than financing from the private sector. If circumstances were to change and GBE received such permission, then, because it is a public sector body, any borrowing by Great British Energy would appear as a liability on the Government’s balance sheet and therefore would be transparent and visible to any interested party, including us.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

I would be most grateful if the Minister could answer my question. Is there not a danger that, if there is a profitable energy project, the private sector will pick it up and make money on it but, if it is much dodgier and more speculative, and it might lose money and the risk is much higher, GBE will be left with it and probably lose money for the taxpayer?

[Lord Cryer (Lab)]

I see the point the noble Lord is making, but that is a matter for the board. I have a certain degree of faith in the Secretary of State and we have an extremely competent chair with a well-proven track record. In due course, we will hopefully have a board with a similar track record. I do not think we will be dealing with the sort of people who fritter money away because they happen to fancy it. But that is a matter for the board of GBE.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

At the outset, the Minister said that Great British Energy was going to be capitalised at £8.3 billion. That formulation was used in the manifesto, the July statement, et cetera. He then seemed to imply that the amount of financial assistance given under Clause 4 was not within the £8.3 billion. Could he clarify whether it is or not?

[Lord Cryer (Lab)]

Yes, it is within the £8.3 billion.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

Perhaps I could take us on to another aspect of the £8.3 billion. Helpfully, the noble Lord confirmed in response to my noble friend Lord Offord’s Amendment 40 that financial assistance would be included in general government debt, so we expect to see the £8.3 billion in the measurement of debt. At Second Reading, I raised the issue that I could not see the £8.3 billion in the Budget Red Book and therefore within the forecasts produced by the OBR for government debt—one of the key items in the Chancellor’s fiscal rules. I failed to ask the Minister for direct confirmation of that at the time. I do so now: is the £8.3 billion included in the current OBR forecasts for government debt?

[Lord Cryer (Lab)]

As far as I know, the answer to that question is yes. That is to the best of my knowledge. If it is not, I will have to write to the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

I would be very grateful if the noble Lord would write, because it is very difficult to see the £8.3 billion. The £125 million for 2025-26 is visible in DESNZ’s departmental numbers, but it is not clear that anything else is. If the Minister is right, there is no problem. If he is wrong, it looks like another potential black hole in the nation’s finances—one wholly of this Government’s making. So it is important that we sort this out.

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[Lord Cryer (Lab)]

I have answered the noble Baroness’s question to the best of my ability; I will write to her.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his response to these amendments. I reiterate that the core aim of these amendments is to protect the taxpayer, ensure proper scrutiny and secure the financial integrity of Great British Energy, so I am sure we will come back to that on Report. I am very taken with the advice given by my noble friend Lord Hamilton of Epsom, that nationalised industries do not have a great track record of producing profits and returns for the taxpayer. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, and the noble Earl, Lord Russell, for their amendments. We all agree that modern slavery is one of the great scourges of our time. It is estimated that tens of millions of people are trapped in forced labour worldwide, many of them in sectors tied to energy production and manufacturing. Indeed, as the noble Lord and the noble Earl pointed out very eloquently, renewable energy technologies such as solar panels rely on materials such as polysilicon, much of which is sourced from regions where reports of forced labour and human rights abuses are widespread.

These amendments seek to ensure that GBE operates with integrity and accountability in its supply chain practices. Each amendment addresses a crucial aspect of ethical responsibility, and together they would bind the Government to ensure clean energy does not come at the expense of human rights, ethical labour practices or transparency. I encourage the Government to look at this matter carefully. Can the Minister explain what measures will be put in place to ensure that there is oversight of Great British Energy’s supply chains? If Great British Energy is to represent the values of this nation, there is a strong case for tougher measures to prevent public funds being spent in a way that supports or sustains supply chains that exploit human beings.

On Amendment 109, while I recognise the sensitivity and complexity of this issue, it is crucial that we approach it with transparency and courage. Consumers and stakeholders have a right to know the origins of the products they use and the conditions under which they are made. I hope the Minister will listen carefully to the arguments made on this matter; we on these Benches will be very interested to hear his reply.

As a publicly backed entity, Great British Energy has an opportunity to set an example and be a model to other countries. I am sure the Government agree there are opportunities here and we look forward to hearing their response.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for his expert introduction to the amendment. I also thank the noble Earl, Lord Russell, for his wise comments. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Offord, that we are, of course listening very carefully to this important debate, and I have no doubt whatever about the gravity of the issue. The amendments seek to highlight the importance of ensuring that our supply chains are protected from forced labour, and I wholeheartedly support this.