(1 day, 21 hours ago)
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Baroness Wilcox of Newport
To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of constitutional and policy divergence in Wales on the integrity of the United Kingdom.
Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)
My Lords, devolution allows Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to take different approaches which reflect particular circumstances, while continuing to benefit from the pooling of resources, the sharing of opportunities and the collective strength that comes from being part of the United Kingdom. The integrity of the United Kingdom is best protected when our four Governments work constructively and effectively together on shared challenges. That is what the Prime Minister is committed to, as he made clear to the Heads of the devolved Governments in the National Economic Council meeting last week.
Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)
I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he agree with me that the true measure of successful devolution is not the accumulation of constitutional difference but whether it delivers better outcomes for the people of Wales while strengthening their place within the United Kingdom?
Lord Katz (Lab)
My noble friend is right; what matters is what works. The guiding principle for our engagement with the Welsh Government is how to deliver better outcomes on the issues that matter for people in Wales. That is why we are supporting people in Wales with the cost of living and by driving good growth and creating thousands of jobs in the process. We were pleased to discuss our ambitions for industrialisation and good growth with the Welsh Government at the National Economic Council and look forward to building on this in the coming months. I agree with my noble friend that this is also about strengthening and championing the contribution that Wales makes to the UK’s collective security and prosperity in bolstering the UK’s defence, producing our steel and leading the way in industries such as compound semiconductors and life sciences—our union is stronger from having Wales in it.
Baroness Smith of Llanfaes (PC)
My Lords, why is it a problem when Wales chooses to do things differently but not when England does? What assessment have this Government made of the impact of the constitutional and policy divergence in England on the integrity of the UK?
Lord Katz (Lab)
If one thinks about devolution across the whole of the United Kingdom, Wales is at risk of becoming one of the most centralised countries. There are opportunities to deepen devolution in Wales and to take a more place-based approach to growth. That is an ambition that the UK and the Welsh Government share. We are keen to explore that in a respectful partnership with the Welsh Government. This means empowering places right across Wales so that they can realise their own growth ambitions.
Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)
It is the turn of the Lib Dems.
Baroness Humphreys (LD)
As the Minister already said, devolution in Wales has given us the ability to do things differently from the rest of the UK if we feel it meets the needs of the people of Wales. That inevitably means divergence. Wales needs to move on and to travel further on its devolution journey. We face a number of choices highlighted in the Senedd Commission’s report: the status quo, Plaid’s independence or the Lib Dem preference for a federal future. What steps do the Government intend to take to progress further powers to Wales?
Lord Katz (Lab)
I agree with the sentiment that the noble Baroness has expressed. Last week at the National Economic Council, the Prime Minister set out an offer on empowering local regions to deliver good growth and thus develop better public services to prevent Wales maintaining its position as highly centralised. This involves all sorts of things, such as devolving more employment support on the condition that it reaches down into Wales’s regions and communities and exploring how we can improve city region deals. Constitutionally, we need to carry on talking respectfully to all our partners in Governments across the United Kingdom. The Prime Minister is looking forward to Cardiff hosting the next meeting of the National Economic Council next spring. I am sure that these discussions will continue.
Baroness Goldie (Con)
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, is absolutely right in advancing the test, as she does, of the quality of public services delivered. The experience in Scotland is sad and instructive. After 21 years of SNP incumbency, we have had a relentless prosecution of the case for independence—rejected by the Scottish electorate—and a cataclysmic decline in public services, while being the highest-taxed part of the United Kingdom. Can the Minister reassure this House that his Government will take steps to ensure that Administrations in the devolved parts of this nation are concentrating exclusively on the services they are supposed to deliver for their electorates?
Lord Katz (Lab)
I agree completely with the noble Baroness. I am absolutely clear that the UK Labour Government were elected with a mandate to defend and strengthen our union, including in both Wales and Scotland—that is what we are doing now and will continue to do. We will never support independence. On her comments about looking out for the people of the respective nations, whether in Wales, as originally posed in the Question, or in Scotland, we are clear that nations and Governments need to focus on what is best for the people. We are very pleased that the Welsh Government have decided to follow the UK Government’s lead in passing on the £100 household energy payment that was announced in last week’s Budget. We are also clear that, when we are giving record funding settlements, as we are to Wales, the devolved Administrations need to focus on spending them on public services that improve the lives of their citizens, not spend all their time on constitutional questions.
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
Does my noble friend the Minister agree that one of the abiding problems in Wales is the concentration of power and prosperity in Cardiff and the south-east? What are the Government doing to encourage a greater spread of power and prosperity within Wales, and real devolution?
Lord Katz (Lab)
I agree with my noble friend. As I have previously said, we want to see full regional empowerment and power passed down not just from Westminster to Cardiff Bay but through there to reach all parts of Wales. On the specifics, we are supporting the Welsh Government in investing across the whole of Wales. I point to the Gwyndod investment in Ynys Môn for nuclear energy, and urge Plaid Cymru to be clear about how it supports the ambitions we have for nuclear energy to provide both energy security and lots of good, high-skilled jobs in Wales and across the rest of the UK. We are also talking about improving transport links through a new station in Deeside. The UK Government are supporting lots of investment in Wales, but we also want to see the Welsh Government supporting regional empowerment throughout the whole country of Wales.
The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)
My Lords, intergovernmental relations are set out in a quarterly report. In the first six months of this year, the Northern Ireland Executive had 29 interministerial group meetings, the Scottish Government had 23 and the Welsh Government had only 21. When one looks by department, one sees that the Wales Office managed to have only one in the first six months. The interministerial group structure is one of the key things for making our United Kingdom work properly. Does the Minister feel satisfied with the number of meetings that I have just described? What plans are there to increase that number for Wales?
Lord Katz (Lab)
I thank the noble Earl for that observation; I am not keeping quite as close a tally as he is on the number of meetings. I point out that, just this weekend, we had the first meeting of the new National Economic Council, and it was positive to see the Prime Minister convene it. He made a very clear offer to the leaders of all the devolved Governments to put politics aside and to work in partnership with the UK Government. That is the spirit in which he wishes to work with the Heads of the devolved Governments; I hope that it will be taken up by them in the same spirit, and I am sure it will be.
Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)
My Lords, both the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, whom I congratulate on raising this issue, have spoken about outcomes from devolution. The Minister will understand how personally upsetting I find it to see Wales falling behind in so many devolved areas. The latest PISA results were shockingly bad, highlighting the challenges facing Welsh education, yet the Welsh Government continue to seek further powers, including the devolution of law and policing. Will the Minister rule out further constitutional divergence, where it risks undermining the integrity of our United Kingdom? A quick, one-word answer will suffice.
Lord Katz (Lab)
I can spare more than just one word. I agree that we are looking for the Welsh Government—and, indeed, the Scottish Government—to concentrate on spending public money on improving people’s lives, not on constitutional questions.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, in undertaking his responsibilities on matters which impact on devolved services, from where does the Minister get his advice?
Lord Katz (Lab)
Personally, I get advice from officials in the Wales Office. Part of the reason the Prime Minister is convening the National Economic Council is to have frank, open and positive conversations with the leaders of the devolved Governments, including the Plaid Cymru Administration in Cardiff, to ensure that we have an open dialogue about Wales’s challenges. They need to come to the table—I am sure they will—in that spirit of openness and with a willingness to work in partnership on what matters to people in Wales, which I would say is improving public services.