Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Lords Chamber

Wednesday 13th May 2026

(began 4 months, 3 weeks ago)

Share Debate

Watch Live
Skip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded

15:37

Motion for Humble Address: Motion for a Humble Address

The The Lord The Lord Privy The Lord Privy Seal.

15:37

Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)

- -

My Lords. I beg to move that the bill for better regulating of select vestries now be read for the first time.

15:37

Motion for Humble Address: Motion for a Humble Address

The question is that this bill >> The question is that this bill be now read a first time. As many be now read a first time. As many of that opinion will say content. To the contrary, not content. The contents have it. My Lords, I have contents have it. My Lords, I have to acquaint the house that his Majesty was pleased this morning to make a most gracious speech from the throne to both houses of

15:37

Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)

- -

Parliament assembled in the House of Lords. Copies of the gracious speech are available in the printed speech are available in the printed paper office. I have, for the convenience of the House, arranged for the terms of the gracious for the terms of the gracious speech to be published in the Official Report. Official Report.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Official Report. Lord Oates. I beg to move that a Humble Address be presented to His Majesty as follows. Most gracious sovereign, we, your Majesty's most

15:38

Baroness Crawley (Labour)

- -

dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords, spiritual and temporal in Parliament, assembled, beg leave to Parliament, assembled, beg leave to thank your Majesty for the most gracious speech which your Majesty gracious speech which your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament. My Lords. I've been Parliament. My Lords. I've been asked not to be too controversial asked not to be too controversial today. As I might spook the markets. I. I can't remember whether the Chief Whip said the gilt market, the bond market or the bear market, but I mean, I won't I don't want to spook any markets.

I enjoy a market, especially a farmer's market. What an immense pleasure it is to propose the Humble Address and a huge thank you to our staff, including our security staff and our door keepers, for making sure we all scrub up well for His Majesty. A friend of mine. Well, I say, a friend, was explaining to one of our new peers what takes place this afternoon. He said the mover of the motion is the one on the way out.

And the seconder is the one on the way up. I can't tell you, my Lords, how relieved I am that my seconder is. The noble Lord Lord Roe of West Wickham. Yes, a former firefighter, so he can give me a fireman's lift on the way out. He's he's looking at me now. He's assessing the waitress. Perhaps a firefighters carry. I think that that means more specialist equipment. But anyway, so, my Lords, my noble friend Lord Roe.

What can I say? He's already been singled out for great things, especially in the world of buildings safety. And I wish him well in the future. He has a serious record of service. The first London Fire Brigade commissioner to sign the Armed Forces Covenant, and he was awarded the King's Fire Service Medal in 2024. New Year Honours list. So watch this space. Yes, my Lords, in my 27 years in your Lordships House, so much has changed.

Social media did not exist in 1998. Imagine life without TikTok. President Trump was still in real estate. Happy days. The Archbishop of Canterbury probably didn't wear nail varnish. And the clerk of the parliaments was not called Chloe. My first proper conversation with members of your Lordships House was on my. On the day of my introduction. I sat at the long table for afternoon tea. On either side of me were Earl grey and Lord Palmer.

Of the Huntley and Palmer MP I realised I was having tea and biscuits, with tea and biscuits. How mad is that? On the same day I heard an elderly peer say, we had one of those Labour women in today. She was wearing slacks. It's going that way, you know. Well, I'm pleased to say, looking round the house at all my women colleagues, that it has gone that way. We now have 284 women members as of April, and I hope, sincerely hope more to come.

Yeah. Anyway, they weren't slacks. It was a rather nice trouser suit. Now it's expected on this occasion to say something nice about the Leader of the House and the Chief whip. Well, I need no encouragement. Our leader is passionate, intuitive, supportive to us all wise and witty, and has given great service in both houses to the country, especially with her work in Northern Ireland. Amen. We're blessed to have the noble Lady, Baroness Smith of Basildon, as we say, on these benches.

The only Way is Essex. I recently read Lord Hart of Tenby book about his time as chief whip in the Sunak government. He writes hilariously about the misdemeanours of his MPs. A personal favourite of mine were the 3 a.m. phone calls to get them out of sticky situations. Thank goodness that we, on this side of the house have all led side of the house have all led completely blameless. When it comes to his time. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, will have nothing disobliging to say about it at all.

Well virtually nothing. Some thinks that Chief Whips should be blighters and bullies and other words beginning with B, but our Chief Whip is nothing of the sort. He's an utterly delightful man, and I, for one, am only too glad to stay late into the night. Because it means we can spend more time with. Looking round the chamber, I see our newish Lord speaker, the noble Lord Lord Forsyth. He will merge humour and discipline with integrity and a little promise to integrity and a little promise to himself to be nicer to the Lib Dems.

Lord Purvis of Tweed take note and it's good to see you in your new role, which I know you will carry with aplomb. We all have our guilty pleasures, my Lords. Some of us, you know who you are. Like dressing up in Harry Potter costumes. Yes. But me? My guilty pleasure is that I like to have perfectly civilised conversations with the Lords leader of His Majesty's loyal opposition, the doughty Lord True. Yeah, it's usually about our diametrically opposed views on Brexit.

Neither convinces the other, but it's fun trying Earl of Kinnoull steamed, convenor of the Crossbenches, must be very proud of his flock. We don't need Google in this house. We've got the crossbenchers and they know everything. I see the noble Lady, Lady Jones, in her place. Greens are good for us, she insists. Well. After last week, some of us may beg to differ. My Lords, to be serious. For many of us, the local elections have been an utterly bruising experience.

For some, my Welsh colleagues, it's been blunt force trauma. For others, such as plied more positive. However, I am beyond upset. Who I am, beyond upset that reform, who are not fit to govern, have taken seats from hard working local councillors across the House who are the foundations of our democracy. Yeah, we on this side have harsh lessons to learn from May the 7th, but I will not take those lessons from reform.

My Lords. I'm proud of the measures that we've already achieved in our government minimum wage, up child poverty, down rights for millions of workers, up jeopardy for renters down. And so we come to today's gracious speech. I managed to get in early today with that famous revolving pod. None of us can ever again feel secure that we'll get again feel secure that we'll get into the place. I dressed in the library. I must stop doing that. And I waited in the chamber for the gracious speech with noble Lords.

While sitting there quietly, I thought about the uncertainty and the anxiety of the times we live in internationally. Of course, with Gaza, Ukraine, the Middle East, but also at home where our Jewish friends are once again being targeted and where flags mean division and intolerance. History, as we all know, is always closer than we think. The gracious speech outlined the government's determination to control the cost of living pressures that people are finding so hard to manage.

It seeks to protect the energy, defence and economic security of the country. It shows determination to tackle anti-Semitism and indeed protect all our communities that are vulnerable to racism and prejudice. It builds on our new relationship with our European allies, and confirms a route back to Europe for our young people. I hope that means

**** Possible New Speaker ****

a way back for our artists and our creatives to. Yeah.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yeah. I particularly welcome our ongoing commitment to championing the rights of women and girls to live free from violence wherever they are. And while we welcome, of course, the renewed commitment to NATO, I do believe, my Lords, that NATO, I do believe, my Lords, that we need to set out a clear financial path to increased defence spending urgently. My Lords, in closing, people are thoroughly fed up. They're fed up with the. Basically, they've been fed up since 2008.

The financial crisis, the years of austerity, Brexit, Covid, Ukraine, the current energy crisis. No government can turn that round in tick tock time, but I believe this government will use every ounce of strength to wrestle these problems and regain the trust of the British people in doing so. My Lords, I beg to move that a Majesty. Majesty.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The The question The question is The question is that The question is that a The question is that a Humble Address be presented to His Majesty as follows. Most gracious sovereign, we, your Majesty's most dutiful and we, your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords, spiritual and temporal in Parliament, assembled, beg leave to Parliament, assembled, beg leave to thank your Majesty for the most gracious speech which your Majesty

**** Possible New Speaker ****

has addressed to both houses. Lords.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords, I stand to second, my noble friend Baroness Crawley's motion for a Humble Address to His motion for a Humble Address to His Majesty. And can I just start, before I thank those who I must before I thank those who I must thank by saying never go. Second, I heard that some time ago in my life, and once again that advice is and once again that advice is proven right. I must, of course, start by thanking the Leader of the House and the Government Chief Whip House and the Government Chief Whip before I get started on him.

Later in the speech for being granted the

15:52

Lord Roe of West Wickham (Labour)

- -

16:05

Lord True (Conservative)

- -

to see our house without those railings today. >> Yeah.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

It my Lords it's an absolute pleasure to follow the the wise and witty speeches of the noble witty speeches of the noble Baroness Baroness Crawley and the noble Lord Lord Roe of West Wickham, the noble Lord Lord Roe has had a brave and remarkable career of public service, which he was too modest to speak about, but his words only reinforce the great respect in which he's already held here. He was actually, I know, among other things, a distinguished boxing champion, and perhaps it was a risk of too many rounds of ping pong this session.

The noble Baroness could might set him to to sort us out or maybe lift us out. My Lords, as for noble Baroness Lady Crawley, I had the honour of serving with her on your Lordship's Committee on Intergenerational Fairness, and she mentioned some differences that we occasionally have. But frankly, I must tell her I've been puzzled that no government has ever picked up our joint recommendation to scrap the triple lock, though it was good to hear in this speech today a little bit more about apprenticeships.

The noble Baroness is absolutely the very model of sound sense and good reason, worn with wit, lightness and charm, as we heard today. And my Lords, that's what your Lordships House is all about. Now, my Lords, on the last of these occasions I began by congratulating the party. On it, on its historic electoral success. I think I might leave that bit out this time. It is stormy weather today I actually noticed that it was hailing this morning. It actually only rained on morning.

It actually only rained on Rishi Sunak. But what I what I what I can tell you, my Lords, is that I have paid my council tax. I never worked for the Red cross. I never worked for the Ministry of Justice. And I actually couldn't afford a Lamborghini to rev up fossil fuel in the faces of my green electors. And I say to the noble Baroness, by the way, I've never taken a £5 million check from a dodgy foreign donor over a and a pint.

My Lords, to be serious for a moment. Of course, as Leader of the Opposition, I cannot ignore the large gaps left on these benches and the crossbenches by the expulsion of dozens of our colleagues. We do miss them, and although we have welcome news that a minority will return, 1784 years of experience have been lost to our house. It was a mighty rent and in many ways hurtful. It will be hard to forget, particularly with the huge threat of further expulsions hanging over the older members in our House.

My Lords, I submit we really must think very carefully about how far we let this process of expulsions go. Indeed, we now have another bill to remove peerages. In the gracious speech. I suppose we'll have to call it Peter's Law. My Lord, sir, we will need to look very carefully at the details of that bill to its scope, criteria and who decides lest it ever become a licence for the social media lynch mob? My Lords, the heart rather sinks at number ten, boasting about 37 bills and draft bills this session.

This is quite unbelievable. Too much legislation equates directly to too many demands on this House and long days that nobody wants on either side of this chamber. Could the noble Baroness, when she winds up, confirm how many of these bills will start in this House? But, my Lords, I want to say something about procedure, because the great principle of our Constitution is that the King's government must be carried on. Not quite the carry On film it's been in the last few days.

The last session was sometimes fractious, although generally the genuine goodwill in usual channels which led by the noble Baroness, which I greatly appreciate, helped us, helped us through. But however great the turnover our members. My Lords, we must all try to preserve the ancient courtesies of this House. We are a house of self-regulation, and with that must go a high degree of self-restraint. The house value is not the quantity of speeches, but rather their quality. Like the two we've heard today, less is often more, except when it comes to good humour and focussed non repetitive argument.

The companion must always be respected and I support the initiative of our leader in sending out what we hope will be a useful aide memoire on some key points of behaviour. My Lords, I started the last session by saying, having been on the receiving end of a record pounding in numbers of defeat and ping pong from the party opposite, that I hope that the era of repetitive ping pong would be over. Well, I confess it didn't always quite work out that way in the last session, but I recommit to that objective and this must be a reciprocal effort.

My Lords, governments are entitled to legislation in due time, always via agreement, one hopes. But we do need fewer, shorter, better drafted bills from all governments. Massive, sprawling bills inevitably spawn sprawling committee stages. We also need, in other parts of the house, careful thought as to the range of amendments and restraint from all in repeating at length arguments made in detail in Committee or, for heaven's sake, summing up at length what we've already heard, my Lords, we could also.

And we dedicate ourselves to this. Improve engagement in this House, to settle lesser issues here, perhaps in my submission, by better use of Third Reading and the time between report and Third Reading. Far too often in recent years, minor issues have gone to ping pong, which could have been settled here earlier and were settled. It's also important. I must tell my colleagues, that we adhere to the long held principles of the Salisbury Addison Convention and where we can reinforce them a manifesto bill, however ludicrous or damaging it may seem to others, does have a special status and should not be wrecked or voted down in this House.

And we on this side pledged to continue constructive discussions in usual channels on these and related topics. But my Lords, I will always fiercely defend the unique freedoms of this House. It is these that have made it the best revising chamber in the world. No my Lords the gracious speech. Well, it was a bit disappointing. Good point. No. Chagos, bill. Bad points, more borrowing, no savings and my Lords. Two serious points, no provision for defence on which the noble Lord opposite was quite right, and no welfare reform.

Where we on this side have offered to work cross-party together, and those offers still remain. And what an extraordinary time it is in politics when we've moved in under two years from the most crushing electoral victory to the most devastating political defeat, I mean, even the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, can't blame that on his predecessors. I actually see that. I actually see the noble Lords getting his old boss, Gordon Brown, back to help him. I thought our global envoy to the markets was called the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

What's she done wrong, I wonder? But my Lords, I'm always encouraged. I have to say, when a Prime Minister in trouble sends the people even older than me. But where, my Lords, is the future here? Instead, the Prime Minister wants to take us back to the past with a bill that will be a massive Henry the Eighth power to reverse the decision of the British people to choose freedom from Brussels. He says that doing this will be the defining measure of his time in office.

Did he perhaps not notice the repeated verdict of people in the North, the Midlands and the East of England in the recent elections? I don't think that the hopes of the people of Barnsley were for more freedom of movement or more wrangling with unelected civil servants in Brussels about what can be called marmalade or Yorkshire pudding. My Lords, the future of Britain is trading in the wider, fast growing world, not going backwards to tight linkage to the weakest and slowest growing part of the world economy.

My Lords the gracious speech promised a criminal justice Bill. Oh dear. Yet another Home Office bill for the noble Lord Lord Hanson. At least he's being paid now. But the heart does sink. This bill will, and I quote, deliver services to the British people. Expect this is a spin. Well, I have to say, my Lords, quite firmly, that there's one service in criminal justice that the free people of this country have expected since the time of Magna Carta.

And that's the right

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to trial by jury. Yeah. Blocking jury trial was never

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Blocking jury trial was never threatened in any manifesto. And we on this side will exercise the full freedoms of the House to defend it. My Lords, we're also promised an energy independence bill. We energy independence bill. We support the wider use of nuclear power. But, my Lords, the Bill promises more spending, more promises more spending, more regulation and more pylons. That's not what people want. And how can we be independent without use of fossil fuels? My Lords, we will seek to amend the Bill to open up drilling in the North Sea, support the Scottish economy and save the jobs of thousands of skilled workers.

We're also promised steel nationalisation, another blast from the past that will not change the brutal economics of this great industry. But instead of pouring more and more borrowed billions into this, shouldn't we be helping this and other vital heavy industries by stopping the crazed levies and taxes that have given the UK the highest energy costs in the world and destroyed jobs? My Lords, the gracious speaker talks of using, and I quote, the power of the active state to intervene in business.

But isn't the truth of the matter that business and small business up and down the land are already reeling from misguided government regulation and bludgeoning taxes? Far too many of the measures in the speech are back to the past. We on this side have put forward a costed set of alternative, serious alternative proposals on which we would have acted, and we will try to inject their spirit into every measure. In this programme, the government talks of answering the hopes of the British people.

Will the British people said what they hoped for last Thursday and that was an end to more of the same under a divided party and a floundering leadership on one thing, however, I will most vehemently agree. We need the values of decency and we need the lamp of faith. And I trust we all agree on the most urgent condign action to eliminate the scourge of antisemitism that is a stain on our free society. On this, I promise the noble Baroness and on other things, wherever we can, we will work together across the chamber.

My Lords, I beg to move this debate. Be adjourned until tomorrow.

16:17

Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)

- -

Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The question is that this debate be endured until tomorrow.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

be endured until tomorrow. I read nothing into the fact that a former whip and someone qualified putting out fires is moving the motion. And secondly, it today, I very much welcome the very gracious and witty and warm mover of the address today with Baroness Crawley. And she was very kind across the leadership of this House, including that of the relatively new Lord speaker. We rather like the neutrality of the Lord speaker on these benches. These days.

We share with the noble Lady's passion about Europe, and we also would be perfectly happy that as a consequence of her speech, there is a run on a market, a run on a farmer's market. And I think I heard her encourage us all to eat our greens for. But we welcome very much also the noble Lord Reay for his contribution. We know. We very much hope that Lady Crawley is very much not on our way out, but we are very confident that Lord Ray will definitely be on Lord Roe will definitely be on the political political ladder up, if not the firefighters ladder up.

I was thinking of how many firefighting puns able to fit into a minute, but I did share with his reflection on the relationship with the chief whip and the lack of freedom that happens when you arrive at here. I very clearly remember my former chief Whip with my predecessor as leader when I arrived here, Lord Newby when he said to me on my first day, the last things I want to hear you ever say is that you will decide how to vote.

After listening to the debate. And I. I can reassure him when it comes to voting, I don't like tuna melt, so it will not be me eating his supper. But as the proud son of an ambulance driver, can I pay tribute to him and his colleagues as first responders in the emergency services for the work that they do around the clock all times of the year, keeping all of our communities safe. Thank you. For my Lords on growth, defence, Europe and energy.

We need a bigger response. That is what we were told by the Prime Minister on Monday, and we share this view of the new measures announced today. There will be some areas we agree, such as in parts of policing changes, NHS structures and send an elements. We have previously called for action, such as on water reform, leasehold reform and the Hillsborough Law for which for all of us here is very much unfinished business from previous sessions. But there will be others where we will have major concerns, such as liberal immigration proposals or an ID, or on Heathrow expansion.

A little over a decade ago, the noble Lord Lord Fowler proposed the same motion as that of Baroness Crawley today. And he said from the debate I quote, I am firmly of the view that the less legislation the better. I think it's fair to say that others have not been as firm in that view in recent years. And given we have as many as seven carryover bills, we are starting a new session with Unfinished Business of the old, and we are due for 37 in the coming session.

Many laws do not necessarily good government make, but we will approach those to be completed and those to be presented in the same manner as we had in the last session. And on behalf of my colleagues, I am grateful for the openness and approachability of the Lord Privy Seal and Lord Kennedy. We are perhaps a little less keen on the late night sittings, as Baroness Crawley have to take note. Lord Kennedy, but also the other and the whole ministerial team in this House.

We. We appreciate that accessibility and openness. In her reply to the last debate on the address in 2024, the Lord Privy Seal will recall. She said, I quote, when the House expresses a constructive view, the government should treat that with respect. She knows there were times when we acted on that invitation when it came to our voting, and I dare say we shall again, if we are to be a self-regulating house, we must ensure our house is in order.

So I have gladly added my name to the letter referred to the noble Lord Lord True, for the leaders in the usual channels, reminding us of how report and Third Reading stages in particular should be carried out. Good scrutiny should be thorough in this House, but this House needs to be efficient to. But it's obvious the backcloth of today's proceedings is the tumult within the government, and whether it has the right approach and the right level of aspiration to face the major challenges the nation faces.

With the possibility of having four different prime Ministers in four years. Keir Starmer was asked on Monday if this country is ungovernable. These benches don't believe the country is broken, but that our electoral system and the constitution are both of which require radical change in our politics, are too easily interfered with by external forces, whether it be Russia or China or crypto funds from the US, and we will want to work with the government to strengthen the protection of our own democracy.

The issue is deeper than just who is resident of Downing Street, important as that is, no UK government in my lifetime has been elected by the majority of the British people, but they have acted as if they have only one where two parties working together commanded a plurality of support, and it was the only time in the last 20 years a Prime Minister has completed a parliamentary term. The challenges the country faces are increasing, but the actual vote mandate of government has declined.

This is not sustainable, nor is it healthy. We will only tackle the major problems ahead if we have a broader and more Democratic consensus. Without it, those who exploit differences on the far left and the far right will continue to have sufficient grievance. In recent days, I've heard repeated reference to the government's large majority in the Commons, but little acknowledgement that actually two thirds of all of those who did vote in 2024 did not vote for it, and many had hoped this incoming government would have understood its limited popular mandate and would start a serious reforming agenda.

But it hasn't yet. Instead, we see tweaking, and too many of our electorate feel deeply that tweaking is insufficient because of the perversions of the electoral system. It encourages recent governments to focus on a smaller and smaller part of society. The government, in its first year sought to accommodate the reactionary right. So instead of marvelling at how incredibly successful this country actually is as a multicultural nation, we heard that we might become an island of strangers. And instead of stating loud and clear that we would be the lead, the charge to finally rid the world of absolute poverty, we heard that globally respected UK development, described as the world's charity, which must be halved.

And now we see the clamour to tack to a hard left, to the comfort of nationalisation and overregulation. When in power you can make the weather and not just be buffeted by the winds. All too often in the last session we have seen the government buffeted off a course. It itself was uncertain of. It is obvious that among the bills we will receive, the relationship with our biggest trading partner will gain focus and of course, we welcome any moves for a closer relationship with Europe.

But we already know the government's own estimate that that of their reset in Eu-uk trade will deliver just a 0.3% uplift to UK GDP by 2030, less than one tenth of the 4% long run reduction in UK growth in GDP, which has already seen as an underestimate. In other terms. A £90 billion a year Brexit revenue shortfall is largely unaffected and the trading agreements with Canada, Australia, New Zealand and India will barely meet 0.5% of GDP growth in the long term.

So Alec Douglas-Home in 1973 said, our head is wise enough and our heart is big enough to embrace both the European Community and the modern Commonwealth. It remains true. Indeed, it is now in our strategic and government most interest that we approach our closer relationship with Europe and we remove the economic and irrational red lines on our future relationship. The reset bill should not start with setting limitations, but instead should enable opportunities. A bill that sets a cap on ambition will need that cap removed, and we will seek a coalition in this House to remove the red lines.

You cannot be at the heart of something when you're on the outside asking for attention. You can't lead something when you've set red lines saying you won't participate and you can't get the advantages of it when you're not in it. And looking forward for our businesses, our rural traders, retail and hospitality sectors and our and our consumers and vitally for our young people. It's in our strategic importance priority that we make real progress for reunion with our close allies and the customs union and single market, and then EU membership, which remains our long term objective beyond Europe.

There was rightly some mention of the crises we see in the world today, and we need for us to advance our defences. We support the government in that and we are impatient for the defence investment plan, and there is still no clarity on joint UK EU defence procurement. Speed is vital as the very nature of warfare is changing rapidly and the advance of technology poses new threats. The scale is one where we need to take note. For example, private US tech companies are spending on AI the same amount of the entire annual UK defence budget every seven weeks.

It was right that the government chose not to be part of the Iranian war. But we will also potentially need to have measures to support British customers, consumers and travellers for the on going impact. And I agree with the noble Lord True very sincerely, that we know that others outside this country will seek to inflame tensions, and we will work with the government to root this out. There is an unacceptable level of anti-Semitism and extreme Islamophobic racism, and we will support any cross-party approach to tackle this scourge.

Finally, my Lords, it was sad to me that the world's worst humanitarian crisis was not mentioned. Yesterday, the African Commission on Human Rights issued a devastating report on the ongoing horrors by the Sudanese Armed Forces and the rapid support of supporters in Sudan on the civilian population in the world's worst humanitarian crisis. That commission report called for urgent measures to protect civilians. Our government is the pen holder on Sudan at the Security Council, and we appeal again to the government for it to finally coordinate and then secure urgent measures to protect civilians in this terrible conflict.

And overall, this government has the immense responsibility in governing for the coming session. We do want for all of us, across all of the country, for it to succeed where we disagree with it, we shall say so. But where it deserves support, we will do so. This is our duty, yes.

16:30

The Earl of Kinnoull (Crossbench)

- -

My Lords, it's a great pleasure to follow on from the speeches of to follow on from the speeches of the noble Lord Lord True and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis. It was, if noble Lord, Lord Purvis. It was, if they don't mind me saying so, an even greater pleasure to hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, and noble Lord. Lord Roan, as I know, in the south of Scotland. It's pronounced reay. Now. I'm not. Why are you a drink? No, but they were captivating and hilarious speeches.

Noble Baroness. Expertise on the workings of the European Union, of course, been honed over many years in Brussels and on the many committees of this House. And I think it will make this coming session a bit of a busman's holiday. Well, I wasn't quite sure whether she wanted to stay late or not, but no, nor do I. But there we are, the noble Lord Lord Roe and I haven't really managed to get together very much, so I would say very much a belated welcome to him, I would hope.

One thing I should say, I'm a member of the Services Committee, and the captain of the Yeomen of the guard is also a member of the Services Committee, and I wanted to check that you have done your fire safety training. If if not, the the enforcement team was out in uniform earlier on, and the captain of the Yeomen of the guard would be able to get them. And they're quite sharp instruments to encourage you to do that. I also am looking forward to the speech of the Leader of the House.

And you all have noted today that she was carrying the cap of maintenance. And, of course, one of the things we'll have to do later this session is turn to R&R. And I was thinking of that as we saw, our King has had a remarkable period recently, a great highlight of which was his visit to the United States, where he was able to mix wisdom, international relations and humour in the correct proportion to such a good effect. And I hope that all sides of the House feel as I do, that we're immensely lucky to have His Majesty as a head of state, and we take great pride in him.

The legislative programme outlined in the gracious speech would appear to be very heavy, with seven bills already carried over from the previous session. In the last session, 19% of the days sat ended after 1040 at night. This was a big increase from the two previous sessions, where that percentage was under 7%. And despite sitting late, the session lasted 21 months. I have no doubt that we will be sitting late on many of the bills outlined in the gracious speech, but we can help ourselves by respecting a bit more.

Our agreed rules set out in our companion. Each time even a small change is made to the companion, it is agreed by the whole house on the floor of the house. The companion is our self-regulation rule book, and I hope in a gentle way, that the whips of all sides of the House will be more active in reminding members of our own rules. Just as the Crossbenches redoubtable Margaret, Countess of Mar used to do. Another feature of recent sessions has been the great increase in ping pong.

The Salisbury Edison Convention. So key to our relationship with the Other place has evolved over its 81 years. The crossbench office has published two recent papers on the statistics and. These show that in recent years we are playing ping pong on more bills with more balls, and the rallies are getting longer. It's a trend and unless it is addressed, these numbers will continue to rise. It is therefore important for all sides of the House to consider matters and in some way refresh this very important convention.

And here I very much agree with what the noble Lord Lord True said earlier on. We certainly need to arrest this trend, and maybe we might conclude that some of the ping pong should not be necessary. I hasten to say that I'm not saying that this House should shy away from expressing its view on legislation, but I am saying that the mutual respect between the two houses needs work, and the spirit of compromise needs to be revived somewhat.

Before I move to my closing theme, I wanted to associate myself with the words on anti-Semitism that have been said by Lord True and Lord Purvis, and I feel that for once, I can reflect strong views from behind me and to my other side as well. In saying that, those views are very much shared on the crossbench and we would very. Much like to work to ameliorate these things. I close by moving on to Europe, negotiating new arrangements with the European Union can never be something which is quick.

New arrangements, in all likelihood, will have to have the blessing of each of the Council, the Commission and the European Parliament having for some years run the scrutiny arrangements for the European Union Committee. I, alongside members of that committee and its subcommittees, will well recognise how long these processes take. Indeed, complex matters are often calibrated in years. Another important feature relates to the way in which arrangements are debated and agreed within our structure. When we were leaving the European Union, the House will recall the first Miller case and the Supreme Court view that Parliament had to be involved in the process.

Although the facts are different, the principles are the same for this critical relationship with our next door neighbours and largest trading partners. It is far from unreasonable to feel that Parliament must play a very full part in agreeing matters at every stage. This is also something that I feel the European Union side of the table might feel desirable. There will be a natural concern on their side that a future UK government, white, might want to repeal or replace the new arrangement in only a very few years, and a good way of ameliorating irritating somewhat that understandable fear on the part of the European Union side would be the clear involvement of the whole of Parliament in the process.

My Lords, I very much look forward to the debate in the coming days.

16:37

Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)

- -

Well, my Lords, I'd like to >> Well, my Lords, I'd like to thank The Majesties for gracing us with their presence today as we begin this second session of this Parliament, and to reinforce the comments made by the noble Earl Lord O'Donnell. I think today, as we saw on their recent visit to United States, they acted with professionalism, with dignity and of course, with humour. And I think the whole House would want to take a moment to say how very proud of them we are.

And my Lords not just for paving the way for the removal of tariffs on Scottish whisky. My Lord, it's a great pleasure, genuinely a great pleasure to follow all noble Lords who have spoken. I want to particularly thank the proposer and seconder of the Humble Address for those relatively new to the your Lordships' House. Every second session of Parliament starts with this debate. A motion is proposed, as we've heard, by a long standing respected member, including one who rather harshly described himself as an old codger and is then seconded by a more recent one to watch colleague.

My noble friend Lady Crawley, is certainly experienced. A local councillor for 15 years as a member of the European Parliament and nearly 28 years in your Lordships House, a government whip covering a range of portfolios. She then served as deputy Chief whip in opposition as our Lords Cabinet Office spokesperson. When I was a Commons Minister, I valued so she was our Lords Cabinet Office spokesperson when I was the Commons Minister and then, as now, I valued her wise counsel. Yet her route into politics wasn't perhaps the most conventional.

She became involved after meeting some politicians when she was lobbying for funding for a youth theatre. She has continually championed the performing arts, although too few of you have been privileged, as I have been, to witness her acting skills or hear her accents, even fewer will know of her success at stand up comedy. You may have got a sense of it today, but her speech was a great example of how humour can help get a message across. But alongside those skills, my noble friend has a depth of commitment to serious issues.

In this place. We hear a lot of speeches, some just. Some linger in our memories as being exceptional. 15 years ago, my noble friend opened her debate on the contribution of women on the Special Operations Executive during the Second World War, having spoken of their extraordinary heroism, she ensured that the names of each and every one of them were recorded forever in Hansard. Her speech today was characteristically insightful and engaging, and, my friends, what can I say about my noble friend Lord ro? He's impressed many since arriving here, as he said, he served in the armed forces as a firefighter, then as London Fire commissioner and now as chair of the Building Safety Regulator, and he has had to manage sensitive issues.

He has a well deserved reputation as doing so with humility. His professionalism, experience and skills and his empathy were never more needed than when he arrived on the scene. The Grenfell Tower fire recollections, which he shared your Lordships' House when he made his maiden speech and during the passage of the Memorial Act on Grenfell. He cares deeply about social justice, safety, public service and parliament. My Lords is an asset to this House and we look forward to his future contributions.

I'm also going to appoint him with another job and making the fire safety training monitor. Those are in the chamber for my maiden speech, may recall his lifelong passion for boxing. Now we're hoping that competitive spirit is going to be good use because he's signed up to join the tug of war team for this house in the competition against the Commons. My Lords, before we turn to the gracious speech, I want to take a moment, as others have done, to reflect on the past session personally.

It is an enormous privilege to serve as a Lord Privy Seal, representing both the government in this House and the interests of your Lordships at Cabinet. I hope noble Lords acknowledge that I have sought to strike the right balance between the two and, alongside our first rate team of Ministers, have engaged with colleagues across the House, taking on concerns and, where appropriate, acting. And in many ways, it's not surprising that the previous session was longer, with a new government facing key issues against a backdrop of increasing uncertainty across the world, we wanted to move forward and make progress.

It's been referenced already that Parliament passed over 60 bills that reflected the value of government. We established a new border security command. We set up great future energy, give the police new powers to address antisocial behaviour and introduced fairer sentence sentencing. We gave millions renting their own homes, stronger rights and started improving the life chances of young people. And we provided those in work with vital new protections and better pay. And in recognition of my responsibilities to this House, I listened and responded to concerns raised during the passage of the Hereditary Peers Act to set up a committee select committee on the issues that were most raised on retirement and participation.

I thank my noble friend Baroness Taylor of Bolton and the members for their work. I look forward to receiving their report. My Lords, I was also pleased I was able to address long standing concerns in your Lordships House about the number of unpaid government Ministers and brought in new legislation. I think that is an example of how goodwill and consensus can achieve real change in this House. My Lords are changing. Government always requires a period of adjustment. Much has been written about the challenges of moving from opposition to government, but there's no manual for travelling in the opposite direction.

Having come to your Lordships House following an election defeat, I know how it feels. If Gerald Kaufman noted in his book How to Be a Minister, he said, there will be that terrible moment when the Minister who replaced you rises to speak on the subject that you have made your own. It will be bad if he performs less well than you used to. Intolerable if he performs better my Lords. The work of opposition is challenging, but it is vital to our democracy.

Governments need robust, responsible scrutiny and those who have recently held office know how to prioritise what really matters. My Lords. As we've heard, our conventions are underpinned by respect for self regulation and the core constitutional principle of the primacy of the elected chamber. As the unelected House, we complement the work of MPs who must always have the final say, and I reference my dual role again in a slightly different context. It may seem a contradiction to some to say that I, along with my noble friend the Chief Whip, have the responsibility to ensure that the government gets its legislation through and that we also value scrutiny.

But that's the reality of life in government, in the House of Lords, and I'm sure my predecessors would acknowledge that. And my Lords have also heard today about the Salisbury Convention. Can I say I'm grateful to the noble Lord for his recent work on how this has evolved over time, and I've also reread. Probably have too much time on my hands both in 2006, Cullinan report and the report from 2000. Now, it seems strange to some that this House relies on conventions and not hard and fast rules, but it can.

And it generally does work. Amendments are proposed, but the government gets its legislation through in reasonable time. But as noble Lords have recognised, noble Lord True and noble Lord O'Donnell, those conventions have recently been stretched probably a bit further than most of us can remember. It is within our rights to ask the elected chamber to reconsider. But I agree with noble Lord True, and I am grateful for their comments that ping pong should be limited and proportionate. Lord O'Donnell also spoke of the increased late night sittings.

Now, despite the fact that the noble Lord Roe clearly enjoys the additional time he spends with Lord Kennedy. We also want to limit this, but it does feel like the number of amendments has been steadily increasing without restraint. There is a risk that key issues are crowded out by those of a second or third order. It's ultimately up to your Lordships House, but I feel we can be more focussed at report to noble Lord True indicated. I have to say that the Chief Whip and I will do what we can to exist.

Can I also say how grateful I am to noble Lord True Purvis and Chief Whips and the convenor, because the joint letter that we will be sending out today to all noble Lords reminds us of how we can do our best work within the conventions of this House, and it perhaps reminds us that good scrutiny does not depend on the length of the speech or the number of times we speak, but the value of the content of what we have to say.

My Lords, the government's programme for this session has referred is ambitious, reflecting the very serious challenges we face. We live in turbulent and uncertain times and the public rightly expect government to respond appropriately. Events in the Middle East are impacting on the global economy, and the aftershocks are being felt and will be felt for some time. They are adding to the pressures on the pound in people's pockets, which is why we will continue efforts to strengthen our economy and drive up living standards.

A decade on from the referendum, Brexit has created real challenges. Rather than slashing red tape, the current deal imposed expensive and lengthy processes on companies of all shapes and sizes. And I'm interested to the noble Lords opposite. I think Lord True takes the view that the Bill goes far too far, and Lord Purvis say it doesn't go far enough. That should create some interesting debates as we go forward. But, my Lords, we will bring forward measures to ease trade with an economically pragmatic approach.

Legislation will give clear effect to new agreements in areas where there is a benefit to the UK through greater alignment. Our manifesto promise an improved and ambitious relationship, including a veterinary agreement to ease the movement of agri food, agri food goods. Given global events, our relationships with our closest allies have never been more important. My Lord, on changes to competition law, we will see a new regulatory sandbox. A word we will get to know well is where innovations can be tested.

We'll also have a duty on key regulators to help fuel growth. This is key if we're going to boost productivity in other sectors, including financial services and civil aviation, we will seek to modernise regulation, remove unnecessary burdens and ensure the consumer protections are fit for this age. And there are also new measures to tackle late payments, which are a major scourge for small businesses and cost our economy billions. My Lords. When we took office, public services were struggling from years of underfunding and ill considered reforms.

Initial steps were taken in our first session to turn this around, and we will now go even further. We have listened to parents and we will give every child the chance to achieve and thrive, including through reform, to special educational needs provisions. With the failures of our water companies so endemic, we will carry out wholesale reform to put consumers first. We will make changes to rail governance and oversight and deliver a fair settlement for the North of England. We will tackle the bureaucracy in our National Health Service to improve patient care and address issues in relation to police performance, governance and accountability, and we will bring forward a noble Lord True reference to enable steel nationalisation.

Preserving domestic steelmaking is vital, which is why the government urgently intervened last year to preserve Scunthorpe blast furnaces. We must now take further action to safeguard production and deliver value for money. Can I say to all noble Lords who spoke, I'm really grateful for the support that we can work together in this House on those key issues of security. It is the first duty of any government to protect the security and safety of its citizens, and the protection of our infrastructure.

We will renew the legal basis for the armed forces, extend the Armed Forces covenant legal duty and establish the Defence Housing Service, will also increase the resilience of our critical national infrastructure and related supply chains against cyber attacks. My Lords. Following the horror of Southport, we will bring forward measures relating to the depiction of acts of extreme violence and the planning of mass casualty attacks. New prescription like tools will tackle state linked threats, making the UK a tougher environment for foreign intelligence services and their proxies to operate in.

And of all of us, my Lords should unite to ensure that we act against and call out the vile anti-Semitism that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

creates such fear and tries to threaten our communities. Here.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Here. Everyone has felt the effects of higher energy prices at home at the petrol pump. This shows the urgency petrol pump. This shows the urgency for boosting home grown power and with it our energy security my Lords. We have already acted to Lords. We have already acted to bring down bills and expand green energy. We will do more to reduce our reliance on imported fossil our reliance on imported fossil fuels and support the expansion of nuclear energy. My Lords. While many of these are knotty, complex matters, I'm confident that the government will benefit from noble Lords expertise.

And in answer to noble Lord Purvis, I do reaffirm my commitment. It was actually nearly two years ago when I said previously, when this House expresses a constructive view, the government should treat that with respect. And I reaffirm that parts of our programme will provoke spirited debate. My ministerial colleagues and I will welcome the scrutiny and challenge. My party wont always welcome it, but we will always take it seriously, making progress in the areas outlined. The greatest speech will help ensure that people across our country benefit from economic growth, have access to public services they deserve, and have confidence in our individual and collective security.

My Lords. I am proud of our government's programme and I look forward to our debates. I look forward to working with you all in the coming session. I'm very pleased to support the motion to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

adjourn the House. The question is that this debate be adjourned until tomorrow. As be adjourned until tomorrow. As many as that opinion will say, content. To the contrary, not content. The contents have it. Appointment of the Senior Deputy

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Speaker, the Lord Privy Seal. My Lords, I beg to move that Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede be appointed as Senior Deputy Speaker for this session. My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede on his appointment and doing so, I'd like to take a few moments to pay tribute to the noble Lord Lord Gardiner of Kimble. His has been dedicated work and service to this House to fill the role of Senior Deputy Speaker. I'll just hesitate Deputy Speaker.

I'll just hesitate for a moment. I think that's. Well, I will say that his thoughtfulness and natural courtesy means he's fulfilled his responsibility of great judgement with fairness, and that all of us across the House him.

16:54

Business of the House Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)

Yeah. >> My Lord, in all that he has done, from carrying out his duties on the Woolsack, supporting the dedicated group of deputy speakers and group of deputy speakers and overseeing the vital work of this House committee, is a clear mission. We all greatly appreciate the work he has done. Noble Lords from across the House remember his work in answering written questions and oral questions on a wide ranging topics including fire safety, the Victoria Tower project arena and the use of cats to catch House of Lords mice.

Frequent point of interest Lord Gardiner chair the Procedure and Privileges Committee with sensitivity and ensured that updates to the companion reflect the current world in which we work. And I think I'm correct in saying we never had to vote on an issue. He always sought to reach consensus. He has provided invaluable contributions to the House of Lords Commission and the other committees who might miss one less than the other, and has been a source of calm and clarity on complex matters, bringing the voices of noble Lords from across the House to these important platforms.

On a personal level, my Lords, I valued his wisdom, his judgement and his friendship. I'm sure the whole House will join me in expressing our warmest and best wishes to the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

future as he returns to the backbenches. Yeah. The question is that Lord

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The question is that Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede be appointed as Senior Deputy Speaker for this session.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

session. My Lords, I absolutely delighted to support the motion from the to support the motion from the noble Baroness Lord Privy Seal in respect of the noble Lord, Lord

16:55

Lord True (Conservative)

- -

respect of the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, who I think I can say genuinely this side, everybody on this side is absolutely delighted to welcome him to his place for many reasons, not because he's actually a pioneer in the art of having been a hereditary peer and coming back here, which which he is. But just because of that charm and grace and attention to detail which he displayed both in service, in government and in so many other ways, and in which I think that he will be.

I think we can all agree, a successful follower to a really hard act to follow. And that is the act of my noble friend. I don't know how you see my noble friend again. Well, he always was my noble friend, Lord gardener, who has been an absolutely outstanding senior Deputy Speaker. And I know I'm slightly disappointed that some of our colleagues were unable to stage us five minutes to express their appreciation to somebody who served the House so loyally over several years.

And I know from the reaction of people around the House that they share my opinion. I think that the noble Lord needs to know the universal appreciation of the way in which he conducted his actually very difficult office. I don't think anybody. Many people realise the difficult issues that the senior Deputy Speaker has to deal with, not just in terms of dealing and managing the whole business of of deputy speakers, but the, the business that comes through the committees that he chairs and on which he serves.

The noble Lord, my noble friend, is a man of absolutely unimpeachable dignity and decency and kindness and diligence, and the House will miss him. I think that it's quite possible that when he returns to a greater degree of freedom, he also returned to be what he once was one of the most doughty defenders of the countryside. In your Lordships house. So at the moment it's all peace and amity and let's hope it

**** Possible New Speaker ****

stays that way. But I would gently say to the opposite side, that should trail hunting come forward, banning of trail hunting. I'm not so sure that trail hunting. I'm not so sure that my noble friend would be quite as sort of irenic as specific as he is. He is has been a senior deputy He is has been a senior deputy speaker. But, my Lords, it's a great privilege to join the noble great privilege to join the noble Lord, Baroness Lord Privy Seal, in welcoming and supporting the appointment of Lord Ponsonby and saying farewell and thank you to my noble friend, Lord Gardiner.

Yes.

16:58

Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)

- -

From. On behalf of these benches I add to the unanimity of the House, and in offering our appreciation and in offering our appreciation for the work of the noble Lord. Much was said in the previous debate about our House operating debate about our House operating efficiently and professionally, and we have been helped enormously in that endeavour by the work of the noble Lord. As the noble Lord. True said, many of the functions are almost literally thankless that the Sdz carries out. But this is a very good opportunity for us to thank him for the very calm, warm, considered and courteous approach.

He has dedicated his service to our house and we are very grateful. Select committees have such an important role in this House, and there has been no stronger champion than the noble Lord. With regards to what I consider to be the heart of our ability for all members, backbenchers and in particular to contribute to this House's reputation. And the House's reputation has been strengthened by his work and we are extremely grateful. We also give very warm congratulations to the noble Lord Ponsonby as he takes up his office.

We know from his experience, both in government and in this House, he will bring empathy and professionalism to this role, and we wish him the very best as he

**** Possible New Speaker ****

carries it out. It is. On behalf of the crossbenchers, he says, looking for Lord Ponsonby I see over there. Can I congratulate the noble Lord on his appointment as Senior Deputy Speaker and most importantly, actually on his appointment as chairman of committees? I think that's sometimes forgotten. I wish that's sometimes forgotten. I wish the names were reversed in importance in the way we consider them. But the noble Lord, Lord them. But the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, has in part been diplomat, in part been referee and in part been provider of chocolate biscuits to me over five years of his very successful period as senior Deputy Speaker, and I'm sure he didn't expect in 2021 to leave behind agriculture and fisheries for traffic management and gas lamps on the parliamentary estate.

But each ball was bowled at him, and the Leader of the House just mentioned some. With every possible spin by world class bowlers, he dispatched to the boundary and with all his good humour. In closing, I note that for our monthly meetings we usually arrive dressed in red Squirrel Survival Trust tie. I'm wearing mine now and we would have a brief meeting before pre-meeting beforehand to discuss our mutual interest in native broadleaf trees of our nation and red squirrels, which I think probably was quite puzzling to the officials who were sitting with us.

But it was something which set the tone for, for for things. And I was reflecting that now that he is going to have some time on his hands, the red squirrels of the United Kingdom are very, very pleased that a major advocate is back in action and can work on their behalf. But I very much value his friendship. And on behalf of these benches, can I thank him most warmly for all his support and service over five years?

17:01

The Earl of Kinnoull (Crossbench)

- -

My Lords, it's a pleasure to follow the noble Earl, the Earl of Kinnoull, to stand on behalf of these benches in support of the motion from the noble Baroness Lord Privy Seal, and congratulate Lord Ponsonby on his appointment. It's also a pleasure to thank on behalf of these benches, the former Senior Deputy Speaker, the noble Lord Lord Gardiner newbies have been enormously grateful for the warmth of his. Welcome to those of us on these benches, his gentle guidance when learning the procedures of

17:02

The Lord Bishop of Norwich (Bishops)

- -

your Lordships House, the nod, the smile, the twinkle in the eyes that smile, the twinkle in the eyes that have meant to the unsure. Yes, you're next. The noble Lord has you're next. The noble Lord has been a steady and kindly presence for which we are most grateful, at for which we are most grateful, at the side of any person who gives much to this house, there's often an understanding spouse or partner, and I pay tribute to Olivia for all that she's given behind the scenes to enable John to give so much here.

I imagine that there are a few faces around this place from which she might well have gained inspiration for some of her famous sculptures, and I suspect that there have been many times whilst sat on the woolsack when Lord Gardner has wished to be out in the countryside, jumping the odd ditch or hedge, and championing the things that he treasures about our farming and rural communities. And that includes the local church and the encouragement and support that he gives to the clergy.

As his personal motto puts it, Floreat Rus, let the countryside flourish. Unless this is beginning to sound too much like a eulogy. Let me conclude by saying that this next season, I hope, will enable John to enable his many other interests, including Greek life and culture, food and sunshine. Perhaps that's even someone calling on you now, but Lord gardener. May the Lord

**** Possible New Speaker ****

peace. Amen.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Amen. The question is that Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede be appointed as Senior Deputy Speaker for this as Senior Deputy Speaker for this session. As many as that opinion will say, content. To the contrary, will say, content. To the contrary, not content. The contents have it a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

dissentient. My Lords, I beg to move the House to adjourn.

This debate has concluded

Return to start of debate - Return to top of page