Justice Committee
Wednesday 10th June 2026
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10:04
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And welcome to this morning's session of the Justice Select Committee. Um, this is a pre-appointment. Order, order. And welcome to this morning's session of the Justice Select Committee. Um, this is a pre-appointment hearing in relation to the the chair of the Judicial Appointments Commission, which members of the committee will be asking a series of questions from the government's preferred candidate, who's Lynne Berry. So thank you very much. First of all, for attending this morning. Before I ask you to introduce yourself and go into the questions we, the members of the committee, need to do, their declarations of interest, beginning with or indeed just.
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10:08
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Indeed. Well, good morning everyone. I'm very pleased to be here and to have a chance to talk to you, hear your thoughts and tell you some of mine. Um. I'm someone. Name is Lynn Berry. I have had a career in public service. Some part of that in the voluntary sector, some part of that in um. Local authorities and in arms length bodies. So I've got quite a range of experience of governance, of leadership, of working in fairly tricky areas, all of which bring up some important ethical questions, um, I've, I'm.
The chair of governors and pro at the University of Westminster. Um, I'm the chair of the Human Tissue Authority, uh, which is a DHS sponsored arm's length body. Um, and I have a visiting. Professor at the moment, um, at city Saint George's University. Um, I don't have any other interest other than I'm a patron of the Mary Wollstonecraft Society. Clearly a body which is concerned with human rights.
The chair of governors and pro at the University of Westminster. Um, I'm the chair of the Human Tissue Authority, uh, which is a DHS sponsored arm's length body. Um, and I have a visiting. Professor at the moment, um, at city Saint George's University. Um, I don't have any other interest other than I'm a patron of the Mary Wollstonecraft Society. Clearly a body which is concerned with human rights.
10:09
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thank you very much. You've you've indicated, I think, that you'll be stepping down as the chair of the Human Tissue Authority. Um, and as Chair of Governors and Pro-Chancellor of the University of Westminster. And could you tell us when your intending to. Do that and therefore your intention that the the Jhc will be your principal or exclusive job going forward?
10:10
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Yeah. Um, I stand down from the University of Westminster in August. Um that will be an end to a fascinating experience there. Um human tissue authority. I've been extended until a, um, a replacement has been recruited for me and my successor should be imposed by the end of the year. And what I've said is that I will stay either until they someone is appointed or till the end of the year, which is ever earliest. So I will definitely have left there by the end of this calendar year.
Um, there should be a period from about September to Christmas where I'd still be at the HDA in all probability. Um, I think I can do both tasks at once. Um, for a short period. It's not something that I think is feasible in the longer term, but for that sort of period, particularly if I can do what I would hope to do, which is spend time in July doing a lot of the induction, understanding what the role is in detail, meeting people, talking to people, having August to have conversations and getting going properly.
In September, on September the 1st.
Um, there should be a period from about September to Christmas where I'd still be at the HDA in all probability. Um, I think I can do both tasks at once. Um, for a short period. It's not something that I think is feasible in the longer term, but for that sort of period, particularly if I can do what I would hope to do, which is spend time in July doing a lot of the induction, understanding what the role is in detail, meeting people, talking to people, having August to have conversations and getting going properly.
In September, on September the 1st.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Um, I would expect it to be my main role. Um, I don't know whether I would be doing any other things, but I do know that I wouldn't take anything on unless I was confident that I had the space and time to do it. So certainly at the beginning of this role and for the first months, it would be my only role. That we'll see how things go.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
I think it shows that the Lord Chancellor is very keen for a sense of purpose and direction and speed about activities. So am I, um he has made it clear that this could be renewed. But what he's also made clear is that all the different parts of the sort of. Framework of judicial bodies are ones that are undergoing quite a lot of change. There may need to be further change, um, over the next 18 months. And that what this does is give both that sense of direction and pace to the specific role at the JSC, but also as part of the, the sort of leadership network of the judicial appointments and practice system, um, it indicates that there may be change, there may not, it gives time to actually work that out.
10:13
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I don't put words into your mouth, but are you saying that this is supposed to give you as the, uh, if successful, a sense of urgency and purpose that you're, you're not just sort of slotting into an existing role?Um, you're looking at whether the, the institution or the organization operates correctly. And the implication of that is that the government is dissatisfied with the way it works at the moment. If that your understanding of it. And do you agree with that?
10:13
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
I don't think the government is saying that it's dissatisfied at all. I think what it's saying is that after 20, 25 years, it's time to think again. It's been very successful in a number of areas as the JSC. That may be something we come back to, but there are other things that it and the rest of the system needs to think hard about. And it gives a really strong sense of purpose. I don't see it as a problem.
Quite a few of the jobs that I've had have been ones where I've been brought in, not only to run them and run them well, but also to think about how they operate, whether they're operating in the right sort of way with the right people involved with the right structures and the right relationships to other sorts of organisations. That's absolutely fine. Um, I'm used to doing that, and it seems to me a reasonable way forward.
Quite a few of the jobs that I've had have been ones where I've been brought in, not only to run them and run them well, but also to think about how they operate, whether they're operating in the right sort of way with the right people involved with the right structures and the right relationships to other sorts of organisations. That's absolutely fine. Um, I'm used to doing that, and it seems to me a reasonable way forward.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Um. I think working together is really important. Um, I certainly don't see myself as being in favour of any particular type of working. What I do see is that the connections between people are crucial. Those can best be created and engaged by actually having people in the same room. But you don't always need to be in the same room to get on with the work that you're doing. Um, I'm sure you, as a, as a committee work better for being together a lot of the time, but I'm also pretty sure you do things on your own at other times, or indeed, as an ambassador out talking with other people.
So I don't have strong views. I would expect to be in in the office a lot. I would also expect to be out and about.
So I don't have strong views. I would expect to be in in the office a lot. I would also expect to be out and about.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
It could be. Um, I mean, but not for the major part of, of big meetings and so on. That's in person, but for things like keeping in touch with the chief executive, I certainly, in my current roles, um, as well as seeing people in the office or at a meeting elsewhere, we also have touch base on, well, we use the telephone. Um, and teams and I think that's a perfectly good way of keeping in touch.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
I've worked alongside the, um, the judiciary and the legal system a lot for a very long time. I've been a regulator for a long time and inevitably there. There is somebody who was actually acting within a particular set of, of laws and employing large numbers of lawyers, um, and being involved in, in hearings and judicial system. I've got to understand it and know it quite well. The point of this job, as you say, is to be lay. So I'm not an expert in it, but I also know I can learn fast.
I'm pretty good at doing that. And, um, I would want to spend some time in July. Might be a great opportunity to spend some time actually being out there and, and understanding it, sitting in things and feeling what it's like. I have friends who are not only lawyers, but some who, um, have. Been involved in judicial system and I've got their experience, but you know, there are just a few I'd like to actually go and sit and experience it for myself.
I'm pretty good at doing that. And, um, I would want to spend some time in July. Might be a great opportunity to spend some time actually being out there and, and understanding it, sitting in things and feeling what it's like. I have friends who are not only lawyers, but some who, um, have. Been involved in judicial system and I've got their experience, but you know, there are just a few I'd like to actually go and sit and experience it for myself.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Yeah. I mean, one of the things that really attracts me about this job is it's a very important time for reinforcing a commitment to the independence of the judiciary, their integrity, the fact that they. Already represent a whole range of groups in society. But those groups need to be. That pool needs to be wider and deeper. Um. It's absolutely crucial that that the judiciary has the trust of people in the legal system of Parliament, but also of the public.
And I think that bit of having the trust and confidence of the public is a part of the role that I would really like to focus on. I'm not sure that there's been enough yet. And looking at discussion about it, about can the public really feel confident that we have the judiciary we need?So all of those things about being independent, about integrity, of having great judgment, being good at the law, obviously, um, being able. To manage a system which clearly is getting stuck at the moment, I think.
Yeah, they're really, really important. And I would want this job, my role in this job to be to, to make sure that we understand really what needs to be done to reinforce not only the reality of independence and integrity, but the perception of independence and integrity.
And I think that bit of having the trust and confidence of the public is a part of the role that I would really like to focus on. I'm not sure that there's been enough yet. And looking at discussion about it, about can the public really feel confident that we have the judiciary we need?So all of those things about being independent, about integrity, of having great judgment, being good at the law, obviously, um, being able. To manage a system which clearly is getting stuck at the moment, I think.
Yeah, they're really, really important. And I would want this job, my role in this job to be to, to make sure that we understand really what needs to be done to reinforce not only the reality of independence and integrity, but the perception of independence and integrity.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Yeah. Um, certainly it's in some ways similar to the position I have at the moment at the Human Tissue Authority, where we have. We have lay members, we have professional clinicians, we have professional researchers, um, in. Human tissue, we have people who are involved in the. Care of the deceased and research into how. Human tissue is used. So we've got a huge range of people coming. Some lay, some professional and a range of professions.
We're tackling quite tricky issues. We are at the moment looking at. With the DHS. About how the government is going to respond to Jonathan Michael's report into the offending of of David Fuller, whereas I'm sure many of you know. Horrendous case of abusing deceased bodies. The law doesn't currently cover all this. The government is thinking about its response to it and the different parts of that that um board. Equivalent of the commissioners have different experiences, different expectations.
The public have different expectations. And the professionals actually working in those areas. And my job is to bring together people from very different perspectives to help them come to a decision so that we can advise the HSC and ministers, though it's obviously their decision what happens, but that we can advise them. And then together move forward with whatever the response is. They won't all agree with everything. But my job as a chair is to help people feel heard, know that their views matter, get to a point where we can make a decision that people will stand by, and also know that, um, we can do that in a timely and decisive way, while still recognising difference.
And that's particularly important, I think, where you're balancing the interests of highly qualified, very, very specialist professionals and lay members. And I do it every month at our meetings.
We're tackling quite tricky issues. We are at the moment looking at. With the DHS. About how the government is going to respond to Jonathan Michael's report into the offending of of David Fuller, whereas I'm sure many of you know. Horrendous case of abusing deceased bodies. The law doesn't currently cover all this. The government is thinking about its response to it and the different parts of that that um board. Equivalent of the commissioners have different experiences, different expectations.
The public have different expectations. And the professionals actually working in those areas. And my job is to bring together people from very different perspectives to help them come to a decision so that we can advise the HSC and ministers, though it's obviously their decision what happens, but that we can advise them. And then together move forward with whatever the response is. They won't all agree with everything. But my job as a chair is to help people feel heard, know that their views matter, get to a point where we can make a decision that people will stand by, and also know that, um, we can do that in a timely and decisive way, while still recognising difference.
And that's particularly important, I think, where you're balancing the interests of highly qualified, very, very specialist professionals and lay members. And I do it every month at our meetings.
10:22
10:22
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
It's not unusual. It's the same as it is in in the HDA and in other bodies that have been part of. I think it's to me, it's an attempt at getting to that, that place of public confidence. So it's not just judicial confidence and, and professional confidence in the system, but it's also it's a proxy for the public, for that sense of the views of people. Um, and the public having a stake in the decisions being part of that. So I think that's what it is.
And it seems to be right. I have no difficulty with that. It's a principle. It's a very common principle. It's far from being unique to the judiciary and the JSC.
And it seems to be right. I have no difficulty with that. It's a principle. It's a very common principle. It's far from being unique to the judiciary and the JSC.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Yeah, I have experience of being both, and I think that helps enormously. I've been chair of quite a few bodies. I've been chief executive of quite a few others, and I know. That that relationship, that partnership is vital. It has to be. Trusting. It has to be clear, the roles of the different partners have to be understood and accepted. There are different accountabilities. Um, and I think that it's a really vital part of the chair's role to make that relationship work.
It is of the chief exec as well. But others. Look to the chair and chief exec for modelling behaviour, for looking at how disagreements are resolved, for looking at how together they can become a very powerful driver for change. And it just seems to me it's absolutely vital to work on that. And as I say, having experience of being on both sides of that, I'm pretty comfortable in going into that. Even when it's a difficult situation, which I'm not expecting.
But if it were to be, um, I would feel comfortable in managing and handling that to maintain the confidence in the leadership of the organisation.
It is of the chief exec as well. But others. Look to the chair and chief exec for modelling behaviour, for looking at how disagreements are resolved, for looking at how together they can become a very powerful driver for change. And it just seems to me it's absolutely vital to work on that. And as I say, having experience of being on both sides of that, I'm pretty comfortable in going into that. Even when it's a difficult situation, which I'm not expecting.
But if it were to be, um, I would feel comfortable in managing and handling that to maintain the confidence in the leadership of the organisation.
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10:25
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Um, I've made appointments regularly to positions equivalent of the commissioner type role. Um, externally, I've been part of sitting on panels and occasionally chairing panels for chairs and chief executives of a whole range of public bodies. Um. I. Have done that in DHS, but also in the Cabinet Office. I used to be very involved in a lot of the better regulation committees and working groups and whatever. Um, and I've been part of making pretty senior public appointments.
It's a role I'm pretty comfortable in. I haven't made them for the senior members of judiciary or equivalent, obviously. Um, but I would be looking for the same sorts of things about integrity, about great judgment, about being able to work as part of a team, about being a leader as well as a specialist. And I want someone who could be a real catalyst and leader for, for whatever is needed in that particular role. Um, I'm very used to doing it.
It's a role I'm pretty comfortable in. I haven't made them for the senior members of judiciary or equivalent, obviously. Um, but I would be looking for the same sorts of things about integrity, about great judgment, about being able to work as part of a team, about being a leader as well as a specialist. And I want someone who could be a real catalyst and leader for, for whatever is needed in that particular role. Um, I'm very used to doing it.
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Where do you see the balance of those competing factors?Because. Most people, if they're before a judge, would want to know that the person making that decision is the most qualified to do so, irrespective of color, religion, uh, caste or race. Um, how do you do that balancing exercise to ensure you're getting the best person for the job?
10:28
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
You start off by being really clear about what constitutes merit. And there are certain. I have to say, I found it really interesting that there's quite a lot of quite a few. Different views of what merit looks like, but for me it means about integrity. For me it means about independence. For me it means about good judgment. It means about sound and excellent intellectual capacity. It also means about practical things like being able to run a court well.
These are increasing issues, particularly with with the perception that and a reality that cases are taking far too long. Um, those are the basics. And any person getting through needs to be able to demonstrate those. Quite possibly they need to be able to demonstrate other things to, um, I think there are in the very complex cases that go to certain levels of judges, a whole range of issues about, about. Balancing different rights, about making sure that decisions are made well. So judges need to be good communicators.
I really think that's quite important. It's not something that you do out of the public eye. It's something you do in the public eye. And words have significance and meaning and consequences. And so I would want to make sure that the judges were also good communicators. If. Issues about. In addition, um, good character and diversity are coming into it. That's really important. But the first step is merit.
These are increasing issues, particularly with with the perception that and a reality that cases are taking far too long. Um, those are the basics. And any person getting through needs to be able to demonstrate those. Quite possibly they need to be able to demonstrate other things to, um, I think there are in the very complex cases that go to certain levels of judges, a whole range of issues about, about. Balancing different rights, about making sure that decisions are made well. So judges need to be good communicators.
I really think that's quite important. It's not something that you do out of the public eye. It's something you do in the public eye. And words have significance and meaning and consequences. And so I would want to make sure that the judges were also good communicators. If. Issues about. In addition, um, good character and diversity are coming into it. That's really important. But the first step is merit.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
What he's done, and clearly I have not yet been appointed, though I hope to be, is he wants as I said earlier, I think a sense of pace. A sense of um. Direction. I think like many organisations that are of this sort of era, they need to be refreshed. And he certainly wants to see a vision for the JSE. He wants to see. A commitment to working at pace. He wants to see it.
Looking again at its processes, which I think everyone regards as probably a bit slow and convoluted. Um, he wants to see how it can really work to give Parliament, the judiciary and the public confidence in, in the, um the courts. And he would also want me as part of a broader group to be part of increasing the pool from which judges are drawn. But that's not something that Jesse can do on its own. It doesn't control who applies. It does have quite a bit of control, but certainly it has an authority to look at the processes that people go through.
I think the probably I mean, he hasn't set me any targets, but I think the nearest he's got is to say he would want to see me working with him himself, with the Lady Chief Justice, with the Law Society, with the bar, with the people from Cilex to see what can be done about expanding that pool. But he hasn't set any targets.
Looking again at its processes, which I think everyone regards as probably a bit slow and convoluted. Um, he wants to see how it can really work to give Parliament, the judiciary and the public confidence in, in the, um the courts. And he would also want me as part of a broader group to be part of increasing the pool from which judges are drawn. But that's not something that Jesse can do on its own. It doesn't control who applies. It does have quite a bit of control, but certainly it has an authority to look at the processes that people go through.
I think the probably I mean, he hasn't set me any targets, but I think the nearest he's got is to say he would want to see me working with him himself, with the Lady Chief Justice, with the Law Society, with the bar, with the people from Cilex to see what can be done about expanding that pool. But he hasn't set any targets.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
I don't perceive it that way. I perceive it as an organisational pressure to get the organisation in fit for purpose, along with the conversations having with all of those other groups, so that we are all in a fit place in about 18 months to be able to move forward. I don't see it as political pressure.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Thank you. You've acknowledged that this is a time of great change in the judicial system. If the government succeeds in introducing the new Crown Court bench Division, there's likely to be increased public interest in the appointment of judges, the selection of judges and some of that may well that interest may become very focused on the. Jack, have you experienced that kind of pressure before, and how did you deal with it?You mentioned that you worked in areas that have been tricky and that raise ethical issues.
I wonder if you could expand on that.
I wonder if you could expand on that.
10:34
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
I mean, I think the areas that have created the greatest public interest that I've been involved in have been ones which were to do with the registration of social workers and to do with child protection, clearly. And rightly, subjects that people are very concerned about and, um, yes, I have dealt with a lot of pressure around that. And a. A lot of the support that I have had has been from not only those within an organisation, but from stakeholders externally, and a sense that my role is to speak up for.
In, in, in all sorts of ways, the, the, the appropriate and collective way forward. It's also where it's the case to stand up for, for people who are vulnerable, to stand up for, for. Children who have been abused in care in that particular case, um, and. To support but question have a supportive but questioning role about the professions and about the way that they make decisions. Sometimes. And yeah, it can be tricky, but it's okay. It's part of the job.
In, in, in all sorts of ways, the, the, the appropriate and collective way forward. It's also where it's the case to stand up for, for people who are vulnerable, to stand up for, for. Children who have been abused in care in that particular case, um, and. To support but question have a supportive but questioning role about the professions and about the way that they make decisions. Sometimes. And yeah, it can be tricky, but it's okay. It's part of the job.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Um, yes I have, haven't I. Um, I think what it's about is being. Awful being. Considerate, being respectful, acknowledging that there will be considerable difference between different views, but also recognizing there's a job to do. And that might involve quite a lot of change. And so I don't come in and bounce. Um, one of the things that that I thought about on hearing the 18 months was, is this a sense of go fast and break things?No, I don't think it is.
And nor do I think that's my skill. My skill is go fast and build solid foundations. And that's what I would want to do. And you can't do that. You can't be be radical in in the ideas you bring unless you're also fairly measured, supportive, collegiate, and all of those things, because otherwise people will just say, I'm out of here. Whereas what I want them to say is, let's do this together. I hope that helps.
And nor do I think that's my skill. My skill is go fast and build solid foundations. And that's what I would want to do. And you can't do that. You can't be be radical in in the ideas you bring unless you're also fairly measured, supportive, collegiate, and all of those things, because otherwise people will just say, I'm out of here. Whereas what I want them to say is, let's do this together. I hope that helps.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Well I'm not entirely sure obviously, but um. It, it is something to do with pace. It is something to do with, I mean, clearly the, the, the, um the report made it clear that the whole process of going through the GLC takes too long. It's appears very inflexible and it appears to be. More interested in excluding not letting people in in the first place, rather than in looking at what the outcome is. And certainly for me it would be about shifting it just from looking at inputs.
To looking at outcomes. That's really important. It's not good enough just to say, we've got to speed this up. We've also got to be looking at are people able to get through this system in a way that works effectively for them and for the courts, and enables enough new judges to be appointed and, and get into the many places that they're needed. So I'd, I'd want to look at those processes. I'd want to look at whether or not they can be turned on their head a bit to make sure that people come in, but also the right people with all those, those those attributes I've already spoken about come out at the other end.
Um, and. And I think people have said it's a very bureaucratic system. I know people who've quite a few. People have contacted me saying, I never got through it. And they've. And I think it's important to find a way of communicating what's really being looked for and then ensuring we get it by the end of the process and speeding it up. I think the report was talking about an average of 50 days at the moment, 500 days, whatever it was, 50, and that it should be able to be faster.
I'm sure that's right. I mean, most decisions can be made more quickly. So yeah.
To looking at outcomes. That's really important. It's not good enough just to say, we've got to speed this up. We've also got to be looking at are people able to get through this system in a way that works effectively for them and for the courts, and enables enough new judges to be appointed and, and get into the many places that they're needed. So I'd, I'd want to look at those processes. I'd want to look at whether or not they can be turned on their head a bit to make sure that people come in, but also the right people with all those, those those attributes I've already spoken about come out at the other end.
Um, and. And I think people have said it's a very bureaucratic system. I know people who've quite a few. People have contacted me saying, I never got through it. And they've. And I think it's important to find a way of communicating what's really being looked for and then ensuring we get it by the end of the process and speeding it up. I think the report was talking about an average of 50 days at the moment, 500 days, whatever it was, 50, and that it should be able to be faster.
I'm sure that's right. I mean, most decisions can be made more quickly. So yeah.
10:40
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
You've already acknowledged in answer to previous questions that in selection, in selecting judges, we need to be looking at merit, good character, and also diversity. Um the Lady Chief Justice has said that the JC should examine its criteria and culture. Um and whether the JC is. Culture and processes. Um need to be looked at. Do you feel that the current processes and the culture are unfairly disadvantaging certain kind of people who, who may go for judicial selection.
10:40
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
I think what they're doing is making they have come to be. Seen as as very bureaucratic and very slow. And they're certainly seen as working well for those who are good at working their way through long, complex systems. Um, I'm sure that there are things that can be done to speed those up. Sometimes it's about changing the processes. Sometimes it's about. Waiting the answers to different questions differently. Um. It's at no.
Point about getting rid of your basic criteria of merit.
Point about getting rid of your basic criteria of merit.
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10:42
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
One of the things I find fascinating is that it's you can see a real difference in terms of gender. Since the JC was set up, it's been quite effective at that. I suspect it's it's not been good enough at looking at other. Um, aspects of, of. Of of really representing Britain as it is and the range of people who live here and a part of it who want to have a stake in it. It's also not been very good at opening up some of the other professions where people from a range of different backgrounds may well be practising.
So it's not it's still favouring people from the bar. With that experience. It's not doing. Enough about um, people. Who come in from a solicitor background or indeed from a legal. Official type background, which is why I'm very glad that there is already somebody very senior from the solicitor background, and that they're opening up another commissioner role to somebody, um with a scilex type background. All of these things are important because people come to the could come to the from.
A range of backgrounds and we actually have to look where people are and encourage people to, to come. And that will then open it up because yes, it's quite shocking that the number of people from specifically. Black communities that the number was 1% 20 years ago, it's still 1%. Other groups have changed. Gender particularly, but also some groups from from other ethnic minorities. It must be possible to do something about that. And that may involve looking in different areas as well as looking at the bar.
So it's not it's still favouring people from the bar. With that experience. It's not doing. Enough about um, people. Who come in from a solicitor background or indeed from a legal. Official type background, which is why I'm very glad that there is already somebody very senior from the solicitor background, and that they're opening up another commissioner role to somebody, um with a scilex type background. All of these things are important because people come to the could come to the from.
A range of backgrounds and we actually have to look where people are and encourage people to, to come. And that will then open it up because yes, it's quite shocking that the number of people from specifically. Black communities that the number was 1% 20 years ago, it's still 1%. Other groups have changed. Gender particularly, but also some groups from from other ethnic minorities. It must be possible to do something about that. And that may involve looking in different areas as well as looking at the bar.
10:43
10:44
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
I think we need to know what we're heading for, which isn't the same as having a target. That's what I meant by turning things around. If you look at who comes out of the system, not just who goes in and in. Order to do that, yes, it's important to look at. Are we asking the right questions?Are we asking them in the right way?Are we asking people to illustrate their experience?Um, I know there have been moves to ensure that questions aren't asked just in terms of court experience, but judgement in other other legal settings.
But I'm sure there's more that could be done about that. There also has to be a serious will to do it. And I think that is something that people are committed to, but they're not quite sure how to do it. There are people who've done that in other professions. I think there's a lot to learn, and we can move some of those lessons in.
But I'm sure there's more that could be done about that. There also has to be a serious will to do it. And I think that is something that people are committed to, but they're not quite sure how to do it. There are people who've done that in other professions. I think there's a lot to learn, and we can move some of those lessons in.
10:45
10:45
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Um, it'll give it leadership. Um, it'll give it a sense of. Um determination to work not just with the JC but across the legal profession and the different institutions and groups there. It's not changing the nature and the diversity of the judiciary, whilst keeping merit is not something that the JSC can do on its own. And I think the fact that the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice will jointly chair this will both bring confidence that there is commitment, but also ensure that they.
They basically have the clout to make things happen. And I think that sounds like a good idea. I haven't yet, um, well, I think they've only had one meeting. Um, I would look forward to being part of part of that collective approach to actually solving this quite intransigent problem at the moment.
They basically have the clout to make things happen. And I think that sounds like a good idea. I haven't yet, um, well, I think they've only had one meeting. Um, I would look forward to being part of part of that collective approach to actually solving this quite intransigent problem at the moment.
10:46
10:46
10:46
10:47
10:47
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
But, um. Yeah, it's. A good read. I'm sure. Um one of the recommendations um. There, there's a chapter on equality and diversity says that we recommend that the government works with the judiciary and the Judicial Appointments Commission to develop and formalise clearer progression routes from tribunals and other lower courts into senior judiciary. The government has set itself a clear national target to achieve a representative judiciary and magistracy by 2035. Do you agree with that?
10:48
10:48
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Well, it's a very, very powerful recommendation, isn't it?Um, I think that it's important that such statements are made. I think it will add to that sense of leadership and clout to make things change. I'm not sure. I genuinely am not sure whether the targets are the right way. They may be. Um, I don't think it's been the most effective mechanism in other professions, but certainly saying this matters, it's important and making it possible for people from very diverse backgrounds is does work in a whole range of professions.
I see no reason why Professionals. I see no reason why it can't in the judiciary. The judiciary is one way of people, of a whole range of backgrounds feeling that they have got a voice, a stake in society, a stake in what justice is. It was shocking that so few women were getting through into those positions before. I am glad they are now. That opportunity to be there for others. One thing I have realised and I hadn't.
I hadn't known this before I became involved in this process, is that there is no career path for a. For a judge. Um. That does, I think, need looking at. I think there need to be pathways. I think there need to be things where opportunities for people to experience a whole range of, of their. Level courts on their way up. Um. So certainly the idea of creating some sort of career structure is one I would, would really support.
Yeah.
I see no reason why Professionals. I see no reason why it can't in the judiciary. The judiciary is one way of people, of a whole range of backgrounds feeling that they have got a voice, a stake in society, a stake in what justice is. It was shocking that so few women were getting through into those positions before. I am glad they are now. That opportunity to be there for others. One thing I have realised and I hadn't.
I hadn't known this before I became involved in this process, is that there is no career path for a. For a judge. Um. That does, I think, need looking at. I think there need to be pathways. I think there need to be things where opportunities for people to experience a whole range of, of their. Level courts on their way up. Um. So certainly the idea of creating some sort of career structure is one I would, would really support.
Yeah.
10:50
10:50
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah. Um, Miss Berry um, I think, I think I agree with you when you say that having a target might not be the correct way forward, because that would then mean that you would end up appointing somebody just because you have to reach that target, even though the merit may not be there. But obviously there is a problem. You will be leading the way to increase diversity. Do you have any views as to why we only have 1% of judges who are black?
10:51
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
No, I don't know, I don't know, but I would want to find that out. And I think it would be important to talk to groups who have felt excluded. As well as groups where they have felt excluded. But something happened that made it possible for them to feel, yeah, I'll give this a go. Some of those reasons may well be in the control of the JSC. Um, many others won't be. But I still need to understand it so that I can lead within the JSC.
And as part of the the joint leadership of the system. Um, actions that will, will lift barriers. It's really important to lift barriers and, and my perception of what a barrier is isn't going to be the same as somebody who's actually experiencing that. So I need to understand that once I have done then with others, I can work on trying to lift them. Um, yeah, I think that's right. And, and I just don't know about targets and they're very different views on that.
And what I'm conscious of is not creating a situation where people exactly, you said, say they're only there to fill the numbers. That's not right. But to your point, people have to be appointed on merit. And there are other things that must be taken into account, too. People need a voice. People need to be represented in the judiciary, and we need to make sure that our judiciary continues being what it is at the moment and the way. It's seen around the world, which is the gold standard for expertise, for integrity, for independence.
That drives a whole lot of economic benefits for Britain. It can also drive a whole lot of social and justice benefits for Britain to.
And as part of the the joint leadership of the system. Um, actions that will, will lift barriers. It's really important to lift barriers and, and my perception of what a barrier is isn't going to be the same as somebody who's actually experiencing that. So I need to understand that once I have done then with others, I can work on trying to lift them. Um, yeah, I think that's right. And, and I just don't know about targets and they're very different views on that.
And what I'm conscious of is not creating a situation where people exactly, you said, say they're only there to fill the numbers. That's not right. But to your point, people have to be appointed on merit. And there are other things that must be taken into account, too. People need a voice. People need to be represented in the judiciary, and we need to make sure that our judiciary continues being what it is at the moment and the way. It's seen around the world, which is the gold standard for expertise, for integrity, for independence.
That drives a whole lot of economic benefits for Britain. It can also drive a whole lot of social and justice benefits for Britain to.
10:53
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Um, you've talked about sort of structural difficulties of um appointments and that it could be done quicker, but isn't there a problem also with finding the right quantity and quality of judges to fill positions. I mean in particular you're, you've got judges who are reluctant to become salaried because they want to maintain practice. You've got salaried judges who are looking to retire and not be replaced by other salaried judges. And this is at different levels of judiciary. Have you thought about how the Jhc, under your leadership, could deal with those issues?
10:53
10:53
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Yes. I don't really I haven't really got my head around yet the difference and how it works, uh, between. Different types of judiciary, fee earning and fee. And, and salaried and the. Different ranges. But I think one way of dealing with it is getting to that issue that you described that was described earlier about actually creating some sort of career structure. If people know what is going to be expected of them at different times, what are the hurdles they're going to need to, to, to overcome?What are the things that they need to do to be able to demonstrate?Um, their capacity and their, um.
Their abilities in all of those areas. Perhaps that'll help in making people feel actually, this is something that I want to get involved in. What I've picked up, which isn't a lot. Is that there is a sense that, um. It's still. And I think the senior Salaries Review Board reinforced that a sense that people don't feel well enough paid that may or may not be true, but it's certainly something that people have said, um, there's a sense that they're still not quite sure that even if the judiciary at the lower levels is increasingly open to people, that you will necessarily get through to the other stages.
I think it just still feels a bit opaque to an awful lot of people. Just how do you actually navigate the system?I think that needs sorting out the, the difficulty of people going into, into the judiciary again, is one that JSC can't deal with on its own, but it can deal with it with its potential partners. But there clearly needs to be work done by the Bar Council, by the um, through. Through Cilex to, to make sure that there is real change and real opportunities for people to get the experience that will enable them to go forward.
Their abilities in all of those areas. Perhaps that'll help in making people feel actually, this is something that I want to get involved in. What I've picked up, which isn't a lot. Is that there is a sense that, um. It's still. And I think the senior Salaries Review Board reinforced that a sense that people don't feel well enough paid that may or may not be true, but it's certainly something that people have said, um, there's a sense that they're still not quite sure that even if the judiciary at the lower levels is increasingly open to people, that you will necessarily get through to the other stages.
I think it just still feels a bit opaque to an awful lot of people. Just how do you actually navigate the system?I think that needs sorting out the, the difficulty of people going into, into the judiciary again, is one that JSC can't deal with on its own, but it can deal with it with its potential partners. But there clearly needs to be work done by the Bar Council, by the um, through. Through Cilex to, to make sure that there is real change and real opportunities for people to get the experience that will enable them to go forward.
10:55
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
But if, as surveys show, um, the reason that judges aren't applying well, that candidates aren't applying to be salaried judges, full time judges is either the pressure of work backlogs and other issues like that, that the salary is going to have to take a cut in salary, that the positions that are available tend to be in London and the South East, which are expensive places to live. You're not going to how are you going to change that?Scenario.
10:55
10:56
10:56
10:56
10:56
10:56
10:57
10:57
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
No, I don't think so. I mean, you've got in your papers. I'm sure the the written answers I gave to, to various things. I think between that and this discussion, which I found very valuable. It's covered most things. I think this is a great role. It's one I think I can do and it's one I'd like to do. I would want to say that.