Westminster Hall

Wednesday 17th June 2026

(began 2 months, 1 week ago)

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09:30
09:31
None Portrait Speaker 2
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And it is a real pleasure to serve under your chairship here today. Um, I understand the member for Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes couldn't make it here today, but um we will raise some of the issues. She asked me to um high streets are literally the centre of our communities and when our constituents look at them, they judge how our towns. And I'm really pleased, really pleased to see, um, there are 50 different MPs that are working to support this really important, really important issue.

Um, I understand the member for Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes couldn't make it here today, but um we will raise some of the issues. She asked me to um high streets are literally the centre of our communities and when our constituents look at them, they judge how our towns feel and how they feel about our towns. In my constituency of Halesowen, people want to see our high streets succeed. We have so many independent and successful shops like Bella's Beautiful Things in Halesowen. Um Betty in Quarry Bank and Cradley Heath, DIY in Cradley Heath.

Um, we also have fantastic community groups that are working hard to make our towns beautiful, like Halesowen in Bloom and Cradley Heath and Old Hill in Bloom. And the volunteers here are doing fantastic work. Um, but the truth is, as the challenge is to retail have increased, old established shops are closing and new shops are popping up in their place. Vape shops, mini markets, barbers. And whilst the majority of these shops are perfectly legitimate, there is increasing evidence that what the public suspects is true.

Many are involved in money laundering, counterfeit goods and other criminality. In fact, the Chartered Trading Standards Institute, whose members are on high streets every day, um, tells me that in some areas, up to half of mini markets and vape shops have links to organised crime. I'd be happy to give way.
09:32
09:33
None Portrait Speaker 4
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Here, here.
09:33
None Portrait Speaker 2
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Here, here. Um, absolutely. Um, the member is completely right. Um that we need to be tackling these dodgy shops. I'm really pleased. The government has made a whole range of announcements on this. Um, but I'll make some further suggestions in my speech where we might go even further. Um uh, and indeed we're seeing it in Derby. Um, we don't have to just take the word of the CTC for this.

Um, my constituents saw it with their own eyes on the BBC in April. Um, when there was in the open drug dealing happening on Cradley Heath High Street. I will give way is absolutely right that um dodgy shops and mini marts are often a front for organised crime, particularly drug dealing, but also for the exploitation of children, the sexual exploitation and criminal exploitation of children, which we sadly know all too much about in Rochdale. So I'm delighted that the government has listened to the experts like Rochdale trading standards and extending closure orders from three months to a year, and is looking really closely at doing that.

But there's also a big issue in my local shops about drug paraphernalia being sold next to sweets and drugs. Resealable bags looking designed to look exactly like sweet wrappers. Does he agree that the government should look at the Misuse of Drugs Act so trading standards can really intervene on that?I'm really glad the honourable member raised that issue. He shared with me some photographs of the paraphernalia that does just look like a packet of Skittles, or a packet of sweets, and I think it's completely unacceptable that we're marketing or allowing businesses to market these type of things that are only encouraging illegality to children.

So I'm glad that he has raised it. Um, in my constituency, um, an undercover reporter was able to buy cannabis, cocaine and prescription drugs over the counter right in the centre of our towns. And whilst the police have taken action and there has been a number of arrests, um, we should not have to wait for the BBC to expose it for this action to be taken. Um, my constituents are also asking why is the shop that has so publicly been exposed for drug dealing still open, and I don't yet have a satisfactory answer to that question, I.

Will give way.
09:35
09:36
09:36
09:37
09:38
09:39
None Portrait Speaker 2
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The honourable member raises a really important point. Local authority trading standards has been underfunded and under-resourced. I think according to some estimates, between 30 and 40% during the 14 years of the conservative government. And so we do need those resources in local authorities as well as the police to tackle this crime. Um, I'll give some good statistics. So Operation Machine Eyes from the National Crime Agency, um, they have led to 3000 premises being raided and close to 1000 arrests.

And the £30 million the government is investing in tougher enforcement with the new High Street Crime Organised Crime Unit is also really welcome. Um, there are so many different issues that make that enable these shops to, to operate. It's really important that we have all agencies working together, the Home Office trading standards, NCA, HMRC, Immigration Enforcement and local police, and I think immigration enforcement is important. As the honourable member mentioned before, because we are seeing evidence that asylum seekers are being employed and exploited in these shops being paid sometimes only £4 an hour, um, which is completely unacceptable.

But the new unit does give me real hope that we can achieve coordination and that organised crime groups should, will not fall through the gaps between different agencies, and they will face the full force of the law. We talked about resources. 75 new police officers have been recruited, as well as extra resources for customs and trading standards to prioritise the work and the tougher enforcement standards, including the doubling to 12 months of closure. Orders I think are absolutely vital for this work as well.

Um, when you look at the way the NCA looks at tackling serious organised crime, they talk about the four P's and that's pursue, prevent, prepare and protect. And I think the government has taken really positive steps to enable the authorities to pursue offenders. This is more coordination more resources and tougher enforcement. But I think there is an opportunity to do a bit more to prevent the opportunities for these dodgy businesses opening in the first place. Um, there's a good example in the Netherlands where they have the act.

This allows public authorities to conduct integrity checks on individuals and businesses before granting granting licenses and permits. I will give way.
09:41
09:41
09:42
09:43
09:44
09:45
None Portrait Speaker 2
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I do agree, um, and I would I would hope that the government is looking at, um, closing some of the loopholes in companies House and whether there might be strengthening oversight of these kind of fake directors that are abusing the system. Um, and I'm finally concerned about, um, whether landlords can be complicit in the organised crime that we're seeing. Um, so we're proposing increasing the transparency and accountability of landlords to deter complicity, but also more support for law abiding landlords to take action against tenants that are suspected of breaking the law.

And so can the minister say more about whether the government is considering increasing that accountability and the power of landlords to help deal with illegality on our high streets?Cradley Heath High Street used to be the thriving heart of our community. I was appalled but not surprised to see drug dealing in the open in one of the shops of our town. This is through under-resourcing and inattention. We've allowed the problem of dodgy shops to become a visible stain on our communities. So I welcome the government's really positive steps on this.

So far, the new taskforce, tougher powers, more resources that will make a significant difference. Um, but I call for those resources to be focused on the black country, which is becoming more of a hot spot. Have we heard through my speech today?Um, but I'd like them to consider even more that we could do, um, whether we could look abroad for lessons on further tools to use to prevent more of these dodgy shops opening around licensing, registration and requirements for landlords who knowingly or unknowingly facilitate organised crime.

We need to get our high streets back to the law abiding, beating heart of our towns that we all want to see.
09:46
None Portrait Speaker 4
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Here.
09:46
09:47
09:47
09:48
09:48
None Portrait Speaker 10
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I thank my hon. Friend and colleague for that intervention. As always, it brings wise and words and wisdom to to this debate. And we frequently hear, Mr. Chairman, that in Northern Ireland maintains historic lows in overall crime. But sweeping generalities don't always maybe give the true picture now in the PSNI and also not responsible to the Minister, but to give a perspective of Northern Ireland, which I always do in these debates. Really important we put it on record.

Uh, the PSNI have said that the overall crime stats are down by some 2.3%. But here's the issue in my constituency of Strangford and Newtownards in particular, Ards and North Down have booked a positive trend. They stand as one of the few policing districts to experience an increase in recorded crime, and unfortunately that's what's happening and I'm here to reflect that in this debate. Long term trend data reveals that theft offences have risen substantially across the region, driven heavily by a massive surge in shoplifting.

It has reached a point where shoplifting has hit some of the highest levels ever recorded in Northern Ireland's recent history. In town centres like Newtownards, the commercial crime wave has felt acutely. The crime rate in Northern Ireland show that the overall crime rate in Newtownards sits at 44 crimes per 1000, which is 24% higher than the Northern Ireland average, again gives an indication of the issues and, crucially for our high streets. Mr. Chairman. Uh, theft and shoplifting make up more than 20% of all recorded crime in Newtownards.

Um even with high density antisocial behaviour and criminal damage that intimidate shoppers and drive down footfall as a national trading standards, warns organised crime groups are actively infiltrating high street retail spaces on our own doorsteps. Shopkeepers faced organised, brazen shoplifting rings that steal to order, often funding. Low level drug networks are residual paramilitary elements that still attempt to exert control over our towns. Um. I've been in touch with my police, the PSNI, Chief Superintendent Johnson, to ensure that the police have a proactive partnership with the the shopkeepers, the Chamber of Trade and individuals to, to, uh, reduce this.

They expect a small business owner already battling inflation and footfall migration to absorb the financial losses of relentless retail theft is completely unsustainable. We must work. And I ask the minister and the minister is always responsive, and I know she travels to Northern Ireland and a number of occasions. I know she likes going there, by the way, doesn't everybody?But that's just my opinion. I'm very biased. You know. especially for. I believe we must work with the Northern Ireland Executive to allocate dedicated visible town centre foot patrols that cover the full span of the constituency with a heavy, permanent presence in Newtownards stretching down as far as to deter organized theft rings.

Very quickly, please.
09:51
09:51
09:52
None Portrait Speaker 1
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Thank you Joe.
09:52
09:53
None Portrait Speaker 14
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Um, and I'd like to thank the honourable member for Halesowen for securing this important debate, because this is an issue that communities like Leigh and Atherton face every single day. And quite frankly, my constituents have had enough. So illegal and exploitative businesses are undermining public safety, damaging our high streets and eroding community pride. And whether it's vape shops, barber shops or mini marts, people are fed up with outlets appearing overnight, often acting as fronts for organised crime, with residents having no say. Meanwhile, as we've heard, legitimate businesses that follow the rules and contribute to the local economy are struggling to survive.

So I've been working alongside the great member, the member for Great Grimsby is a great member. She's a great member for Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes. On a campaign to shut these dodgy shops down, which now has support from over 50 colleagues that mostly are here. That shows just how widespread and serious this issue has become. So recent enforcement action like Operation Machynys that took place in Leigh and Atherton back in 2024 and led to numerous arrests, and including the recent HMRC raids in London, shows what can be achieved.

But it also highlights a fundamental problem the current system does not stop these businesses opening in the first place, nor does it give the authorities the tools to keep them closed. Can I thank the government?They have taken welcome steps. They are listening. New funding, a dedicated organised crime unit and stronger closure powers. I particularly welcome the extension of the closure orders of up to 12 months, and I thank the Minister for working alongside us on that. But we must be honest, this will not be enough on its own.

Too often when one shop shop is shut, the same individuals reopen nearby. Within weeks, residents see it, I see it at the same time. The spread of these outlets continue, particularly in more deprived communities. Leigh and Atherton does not need any more of them, so we do need to go further. We need stronger enforcement powers and proper resourcing for trading standards and local authorities. Trading standards need more teeth.
09:55
09:55
None Portrait Speaker 14
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I will give way.
09:55
09:55
09:57
None Portrait Speaker 16
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Hear, hear.
09:57
None Portrait Speaker 1
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Yes.
09:57
None Portrait Speaker 13
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Thank you, Mr. Dad, and it's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. And may I congratulate the honourable member for Halesowen for securing this important debate. Us, as other members have noted, town centres are incredibly, incredibly important to residents and Huddersfield is no different. The town centre is a part of our identity. It's a reminder of our childhoods and for many it represents whether a place is doing well and whether agencies, councils and governments care about them. For too many places in the North and the Midlands, people have seen the slow decline of their town centre of the place they call home, and that feeling has led to resentment and a lack of trust in politicians and agencies to get the basics right on.

On top of this, the number of vape shops in England has grown by nearly 1,200% in little over a decade, while cash incentive businesses are not new for too many residents, the rate at which these are rising is alarming. The National Crime Agency estimates that at least 1 billion of criminal cash is laundered through UK high street stores each year. Not only do these stores often provide hotspots for illicit activity, they also destroy the character, which makes towns so special. And from my conversations with constituents at Coffee Mornings, at business round tables and on doorsteps, I've heard loud and clear that closing these stores is vital to injecting the life back in our town centre, so I do welcome the creation of the government's High Street Organised Crime Unit, and in particular, its focus on strengthened partnership working and intensified enforcement action on businesses committing these offences, which includes includes additional raids, closure orders and cash seizures.

In November 25th, the West Yorkshire Trading Standards Team conducted undercover raids to crack down on high street businesses suspected of laundering criminal cash. The operation seized £2.7 million of criminal assets. I know the feedback from these operations has been really positive and that they will be continuing. So can I ask the Minister to set out when when further enforcement activities like these will be increased in local areas?And in addition, what further steps are being taken to connect information across agencies and flag suspicious entities so that these operations can be closed down quickly.

And as other members have said, stop them popping up again quickly. A recent report titled Hidden in Plain Sight from TSC, highlighted a corridor of crime across the north of England, from Liverpool to Hull and Grimsby, and unfortunately, Huddersfield has been ranked in the top ten of UK towns and cities, with the most dodgy shops on the high street. The report calls on the government to urgently invest in enforcement capabilities, and particularly mentions trading standards. Over the past decade, trading standards have seen their resources cut by up to 50%.

In 2002, there was over 4000 staff employed by trading standards, but in 2025, there are now 2300. Since then, crime has seemingly become more visible. So can the minister also confirm the steps that are being taken to support trading standards on the ground?We must ensure that our town centres can once again become the vibrant spaces that they are worth fighting for.
10:00
None Portrait Speaker 16
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Thank you, thank you.
10:00
None Portrait Speaker 1
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Justin Madders. Thank you. Mr.. Now, it's a pleasure to see you in the chair today, and I'd like to congratulate my hon. Friend the member for Halesowen for bringing this debate. We can see there's a lot of ideas and a lot of intent to tackle this problem, because high streets are so evocative. They are a visual symbol of economic challenges and act as an ever present reminder of what has been lost. It is one of the reasons why people feel so strongly about the brazen illegality we see in our high streets, the length and breadth of the country.

This is no longer a question of isolated bad actors, but of a regulatory system that has been repeatedly outpaced by evolving criminal business models. My constituents are angry that where there was once an active high street with household names now stand a legal vape shops, mini marts and a suspicious number of barbers. They know that something is not right, particularly when legitimate businesses have already vacated the area due to reduced football footfall. But the law is fighting back. I have joined local enforcement activity in Ellesmere Port, where all the agencies came together and carried out coordinated raids resulting in the seizure of illicit tobacco and vape products, with shops shut down under court orders.

This was most welcome, but what was seized was sadly just the tip of the iceberg and we see a repeated cycle of enforcement and reimbursement. And these are all with connected parties. It is the recurring nature of these rackets that shakes people's confidence in the system, especially when it is so brazen. So I absolutely welcome the government's intent on tackling this problem. There is much to commend in the blitz on Dodgy Shops programme, which contain measures that finally go beyond the rhetoric.

The creation of the High Street Organised Crime Unit has long been called for, and the commitment to double the time for which a shop can be closed for breaching the law will also help. But I think a number of people said I think we can go further. The select committee's inquiry found that enforcement agencies do not have the necessary tools to permanently close rogue businesses. The director of National Trading Standards said, and I quote, you see, as you go back, seas go back. It is clear that the tools we have are not fit for purpose.

Councils should have the power to close premises permanently and without having to go to court, and landlords should not get off the hook if their property is used for illegal purposes, as we have heard today, I do think they need help to make wise choices and this could be used, as we have heard, to flag any suspicious or illegal behaviour, but it would mean that those landlords who are indifferent about who is renting their property would have nowhere to hide. Should illegal activity be happening on their premises. In those circumstances, they should face criminal sanctions too.

But we need a tougher approach on the collection of fines. Too often, they go uncollected. According to the Home Office, £18 million worth of fines were issued against illegal car washes in 2025, but the department could not say how many had actually been paid. According to FOI, the figure is around 5%. We need to have a proper deterrent where these fines actually mean something, and actually there is tough enforcement action against individuals. So I know a number of people wish to speak, so I will earn my remarks there.

But I want to say that I welcome the action that's been taken so far. There's no shortage of ideas about how we can go further. It is good to see this problem finally receiving the attention it deserves. Regenerating our high streets is critical to national renewal. To regenerate them, we have to first of all, reclaim them. Illicit activity on our high streets is an evocative issue, one that frustrates law abiding people and erodes confidence in the state's ability to tackle crime.

So I absolutely welcome the blitz on dodgy shops and the action to back up the rhetoric, but we need to go further by addressing the problems at source to prevent illegal shops opening up in the first place, and then leaving no hiding place for those who are found to have broken the law.
10:04
10:04
None Portrait Speaker 18
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Serve under your chairmanship. In March this year, the excellent work of Dudley Trading Standards Officers was highlighted at a channel four documentary where officers uncovered links to organised crime and signs of child exploitation, including the illegal sale of vapes to children as young as 11. The Trading standards team has been carrying out extensive enforcement activity against illegal shop operations, particularly those involved in illicit vaping sales. And it was this work that ultimately led to the closure of 31 illegal shops, including in my constituency of Stourbridge, Brierley Hill and Netherton.

Dudley Council has since launched an internal audit and is reviewing evidence shared with child protection teams and examining whistleblowing reports from the past ten years to ensure nothing has been missed. And it is vital that we ensure that those responsible are held to account and above all, make certain that strong safeguards are put in place to protect vulnerable children in the future. I was a local councillor before becoming an MP and I was always impressed by the proactive work of our trading standards and the local police, and I've worked with them to secure closures of several local shops over the years, and even given evidence to strengthen cases.

But despite these tireless efforts, they are working with one arm tied behind their backs. Closure orders only last for 3 to 6 months, and then shops reopen with a different owner. Some shops have more than one location and transfer illicit stock across local authority boundaries to evade enforcement, which I've seen happen between mine and my honourable friend for Halesowen constituency. All the while, trust and hope in our communities is eroded and I'm really pleased that this Labour government is taking action to support the work of local teams and restore pride in our towns and high streets.

Recent enforcement action nationally by HMRC strengthens the cases against shop owners and adds to the arsenal to tackle this issue. Illegal activity has no place whatsoever on our high streets and creates an uneven playing field for shops and services who follow the rules. We need to extend closure order periods, tackle phoenixing and hold landlords to account about who they let their, their, their their units to and I just. Want to add as well that it is it needs to be really easy for the public to report their concerns.

We all hear from constituents who have suspicions about illegal shops in our towns and on our high streets, and we know that first hand reporting always carries the most weight. And in the past, concerns could be reported directly to our councils through their website. But in some cases it has now been directed centrally through citizens citizens advice. I will give way.
10:06
10:07
None Portrait Speaker 14
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That's a good point.
10:07
10:07
None Portrait Speaker 17
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Paulette Hamilton.
10:07
None Portrait Speaker 19
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Chair. It is my. It is a pleasure to serve under your chair, your Chairship. I am grateful to the honourable. My honourable friend the member for Earls Owen, for securing this vital, vitally important debate. When I speak in this House about illicit activity in high street shops, I do not do so on behalf. I do so on behalf of the people of Birmingham Erdington, which actually includes a place called Kingstanding, Castle Vale and South Oscott.

Residents who take great pride in their community and deserve to feel safe in their local on their local high street areas like Erdington High Street, Erdington High Street and Slade Road are not simply a row of shops, it's the centre of community life. It is where people go to work, to shop, to meet neighbours and to access essential services. But for too long our organised criminal activity has been allowed to take hold in parts of, of, of my commute on, in my community. I'm mixing my words up, undermining legitimate businesses and damaging public confidence.

We are not talking about isolated incidents or minor trading offences. We are talking about organised criminal networks using retail premises as fronts for wider illicit activity, selling illegal tobacco, counterfeit goods on tax, alcohol and unregulated vapes which end up normally in the hands of young people. In my own constituency, Operation Fearless and Operation Sky SkyBridge has resulted in one of the largest seizures of illicit goods in Birmingham's history. I want to pay tribute to the work of our local police officers, trading standards teams and everyone involved in Operation Fearless and SkyBridge residents have seen the difference that visible enforcement activity can make since the launch of Operation Fearless, there has been a concerted effort to tackle anti-social behaviour, anti-social crime.

Shoplifting and wider criminality that has affected confidence in the town centre for many years. But despite these efforts, enforcement agents agencies are often placed in an impossible position. Shops are closed down only for the same operators to open under a different name. Days or weeks later. There is also growing concern locally about the wider criminal exploitation linked in some of these premises.
10:10
10:10
None Portrait Speaker 19
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I will give way.
10:10
10:11
None Portrait Speaker 16
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Here.
10:11
10:13
None Portrait Speaker 16
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Chair.
10:13
10:13
None Portrait Speaker 20
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Thank you, Mr. Dowd. It's a pleasure to serve under your chair. And thank you to my honourable friend for securing this very important debate this weekend. Nuneaton celebrated its 800th anniversary of its Royal Market Charter, first awarded by King Henry the Third. It was an absolutely fantastic day. Live local music, teenage independent and our normal Saturday markets all coming together to celebrate our rich history, culture and the talent of my town. I was immensely proud to be part of it, and delighted to see such an increase in footfall for our traders.

But my town, like so many others, has been battered under years of austerity and under-investment. Transformation towns delayed again and again, while £1.25 million was cut out of our trading standards between 2011 and 2015, creating a culture of looking the other way while dodgy shop after dodgy shop moved in. In the last two years, our Labour council has begun to turn things around. In my town, our long promised transformation plans finally coming to fruition. With the opening of Saints the Demolishment, the sorry, the demolition approvals and landscaping of long empty sites, and now Grace and place.

Our new investment welcoming the first UK Championship padel courts and our brilliant North Yorkshire South Leicester College moving into our town. Our council and officers have worked tirelessly to diversify our town, bringing in homes, services, hospitality, leisure, empty Debenhams, becoming luxury apartments and old nightclubs, becoming saints thriving community assets. Footfall is rising again, up more than 24,000 in the final quarter, with 2 million visits to my town centre this year. Businesses returning and confidence is growing. We are on track to restore our once vibrant town centre, but this progress is all at risk if we cannot turn the tide on crime and dodgy shops which threaten our very survival of historic towns like mine.

Dodgy shops undercut honest, taxpaying traders and by selling counterfeit and illegal goods. Worse still, they undermine public confidence in our country's ability to enforce the law. When illegal vape shops, drugs, counterfeit products are so openly sold alongside suspected money laundering organised crime, people ask how this is allowed to happen, and for far too long that question has gone unanswered. I welcome the government's new funding, trading Standards and national crime agencies new powers to strengthen enforcement between the Home Office, HMRC trading standards and the police, but that funding those powers must reach into towns like mine.

We cannot simply force problems out of larger cities into smaller towns without providing the resources to tackle it, and we need to stop them being able to open in the first place. Out door knocking recently with residents told me about cars driving all hours of the day. 4 a.m. visits whole streets, being disturbed. I raised this with our local teams. Raids took place this week, seized illegal goods and we now await the closure orders. But this outcome is all too often not the case.

And as we've heard, the endless whack a mole stops people being able to close these down permanently. If our towns are to make progress and to protect what we have, we must be able to close them down permanently and never allow them to open again.
10:16
None Portrait Speaker 16
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Thank you, thank you.
10:16
None Portrait Speaker 17
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Bambos Charalambous.
10:17
10:17
10:17
None Portrait Speaker 21
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The honourable member makes an excellent point. Sometimes people feel intimidated by the people that congregate around the shops, and that makes people feel unsafe as well. Aside from the sale of counterfeit vapes and tobacco in my constituency of Southgate and Wood Green, my constituents have told me that they have witnessed drug dealing openly taking place outside cafes and other premises, and of Phoenix shops who open for a few weeks, then close and then reopen under a different name. Dodging tax and business rates, contributing nothing to the local area.

And it is very clear to me that organised crime, as has been referenced by many colleagues in this debate, is behind that. The. Serious crime and serious organised crime is estimated to cost the UK government at least £47 billion annually and investing in protecting our high streets should be at the top of our priorities. The recent announcements from the Home Office and the Treasury are a good start, but this needs a co-ordinated approach and with one government department to take the lead in solving this problem, which cuts across departments, coordination and information sharing are key at both local and national government level.

If we are to crack this problem. And that is why I welcome the government's new national high Street Organised Crime Unit, established to coordinate across government, policing and enforcement agencies. This and the £30 million given to combat high street criminality is a welcome step forward. However, to act as fast as possible, we must also give authorities more power to tackle crime head on. Trading standards teams such as in my constituency are already stretched and we desperately need more investment in trading standards, including more trading standards.

Officers specialist. Financial investigators are also urgently needed to address money laundering, and I am pleased that the Treasury have promised to invest in these specialist investigators, and we must do more, and we must do it at pace that this challenge demands. The government's efforts to tackle illicit activity are welcome. Enforcement alone cannot close an already widening gap. Criminal networks are often hidden behind front operators with no obvious criminal record, making it difficult for local authorities to identify risks before the damage is done.

Colleagues have already referenced the Bebo Act in the Netherlands, which looks at prevention trying to tackle the issue before it even, uh, uh, comes to life on our high streets. And I very much welcome the powers in the act as we work. To tackle the criminality that already exists on some of our high streets, we must also ask how we can stop it taking root in the first place. And so I ask the minister if she can tell me if the government are considering giving greater powers to local authorities and trading standards officers to tackle illicit activity on our streets, and what steps she is taking to ensure that there is greater coordination, both in government and at local level.

I welcome all the changes that the government is bringing forward to protect our high streets from illicit activity, including extending closure order powers. However, more needs to be done to tackle this challenging issue and we need to restore public confidence and see a more vibrant and thriving high streets. And to do so, we need to use all the weapons at our disposal to cut this cancer that is illicit and criminal activity once and for all here.
10:21
None Portrait Speaker 17
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Right.
10:21
10:22
10:22
10:23
None Portrait Speaker 8
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A week. Licensing is underpowered and enforcement is stretched. So we set out some practical recommendations. First, government must give councils real control over their high streets. At the moment, clustering just happens and local communities are left to deal with the consequences. Second, we need proper regulation of vape and tobacco retailers. A licensing scheme is long overdue and. Third, we cannot ignore the harder question where we see cash heavy businesses with little visible trade.

It is right to ask where there are links to wider criminal activity and that must be properly investigated and enforcement needs backing. Licensing licensing fees have not kept pace. Trading standards are under pressure and data is not being used. As it should be. Now, this is not just about Whitehall. It's about what happens locally. We need visible neighbourhood policing back in our town centres, named officers consistent presence, real relationships with businesses. The Nottingham Police and Crime Commissioner has listened to my call for a police station in Worksop, and I welcome the announcement that this will be opening shortly.

But we need simple ways to report concerns and confidence that those concerns will be acted on. And we need coordination because at the moment, too much intelligence sits in silos. And at the heart of this is about fairness. Fairness for the businesses doing the right thing and confidence for the public that their high street is safe and properly regulated. What we are seeing is not tolerated or isolated. It is serious and we need action right now.
10:26
None Portrait Speaker 24
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Mr.. It's a pleasure to serve under your chairship, and I'd like to congratulate my hon. Friend the member for Halesowen for securing this important debate today, and I'd also like to congratulate my hon. Friend the member for Leigh and Atherton and the member for Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes for their work on dodgy shops, as I think it is very evident by the amount of members, particularly on this side of the House. This is something that concerns a lot of us in our constituencies and sadly, my constituency of Thurrock is not immune to dodgy shops and illegality and criminality on our high street.

Like other members have spoken of today, we have seen a massive proliferation of vape shops, of barber shops, of not so much mini marts, but these very odd home goods shops that spring up out of nowhere that have a like 2 or 3 competitors directly opposite them that serve goods that probably, um, explode the minute you turn them on. Um, and on are no good for anyone. And we also see they are, as has been described, Phoenix shops which open and they closed down or change hands after 5 to 6 months, evading tax, evading business rates and providing no good or no use to the town at all.

Indeed, one such shop in my local town of Grays High Street now doesn't even bother to remove the merchandise or move it around. It just literally sticks up a Sharpie sticker on the door that it is under new management every six months, which is absolutely appalling. And we know where the issues lie. We know that Trading standards has seen a decline in around 50% over the last decade, and they simply do. Way to my hon. Friend.
10:27
10:27
10:28
10:28
None Portrait Speaker 24
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I thank my honourable friend for his intervention and I really do agree with him. I think it is not only disgraceful to see the lack of reform UK members, but also conservative members other than their frontbench. I think it's a real shame that this what we are trying to do, I believe on this side of the House, is to bring positive change that brings communities together and sees tackles an issue which we hear time and time again, is a root cause of why people are feeling so disaffected and disillusioned with the state of their town centres, and indeed our country.

And I know that it is a an experience that members will be familiar with. When I walk down Grays High Street on Derwent Parade or Civic Square in Tilbury, and I find it an incredibly depressing experience. There are big gaps where big shops used to be, where you know, pride and crown jewels of the town, and they're being replaced with shops that bare bring no real benefit. So dodgy vape shops, these Phoenix shops that change hands every few months. And it leads to this sense that the high streets are not for decent people.

They're not for the community, but they are for those that seek to turn a quick buck, that don't play fair, that don't play by the rules, and are often the very, very sharp end of a criminal network that is making hundreds of millions of pounds and is used in the exploitation of vulnerable people. And that people all know this. So I was delighted that the government have announced the High Street Organised Crime Unit, and that indeed, Thurrock is going to be one of the areas targeted under this unit for for attention.

And I know that bringing together a coordinated response using the National Crime Agency, using trading standards and using the local police force, will really start to turn the tide on some of this illegal and illicit activity that we're seeing on our high street. But I would like to just pose a question about what comes next. If you close down dodgy shops, if you extend closure periods and you manage to stamp them out for good. I think we do need to think about what they are replaced with because an empty high street, a dead high street is no good for anyone.

And I have been trying to encourage my local council to use some pride in place impact funding, particularly around Grays High Street, to maybe if we close down a shop that has been used for illicit activity, to open it up into a community and a welcoming space to do something that the community can really be proud of, that is somewhere where they might want to actually go and spend time. And I think it's a really we have to have a coordinated effort both across government and at the local level, about what we do.

If we end criminality and legality, what do we actually want our high streets to look like?We know that they can't go back to the high streets of the 1950s. We're not going back there. But what does the high street of the future look like?What does the space that we can all be proud of, and what does the kind of space that is welcoming, encouraging for our communities that isn't the purview of criminality. So let's reclaim our high streets and let's regenerate them once and for all.
10:31
None Portrait Speaker 12
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Yeah.
10:31
10:31
None Portrait Speaker 25
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Thank you. Mr. Dowd. It's a pleasure to serve with you in the chair. And I congratulate the honourable member for Halesowen for securing this important debate and the constructive manner in which he introduced the subject. A very important one, I think, to many members across the House. I and the many honourable members for their contributions. My hon. Friend for Sidmouth has highlighted the securing of action against illegal trading in Honiton High Street.

I was also taking note of the comments the honourable members for Thurrock and Carlisle about planning controls and screening windows and changes of use and planning conditions, and I'm very supportive of those approaches. The honourable members for Leigh and Atherton and for Halesowen, also pointed out that landlords need to be tackled and I'll return to that later on, as I will, to the point that the honourable member for Ellesmere Port and Bronze made about the the the burdensome need to go go to court to follow through on these orders.

High streets, Mr. Dowd, are at the heart of our communities, and we cannot allow them to become sites of decline. Both Taunton and Wellington have a fabulous range of independent traders, shopkeepers, publicans making ends meet in financial climate made much harder by recent tax increases. Footfall in Taunton is up 4.6%, in large part due to their efforts. So it's absolutely clear the government must be on their side and we must be clear that criminality on our high streets will not be tolerated. The hollowing out of our police force by the previous government has allowed organised crime gangs to gain far too much of a foothold foothold in our communities, with local communities paying the price and organised crime.

Let's make no mistake Mr. Dowd sits behind and at the top of all of this, either employing or exploiting migrants, quite often as suits their purposes to do their dirty work. The recent BBC investigation found that someone trying to sell a shop to their undercover reporter for £18,000, a Facebook group listing dozens of mini marts, barbers and car washes and takeaways for sale, ghost directors charging illegal workers up to £300 a month to register mini marts in their names. Others working 14 hour shifts in mini marts for only £4 an hour.

Mr.. Thanks to local publican in my constituency who came forward with vital information back in 2024, I raised illegal trading in Taunton, Wellington, Somerset, trading standards with local police, so I'd like to pay tribute to the police officers like Andy, the trading standards officers, my Lib Dem Somerset councillor, colleagues who oversaw the work that led to a number of really high profile closures in Taunton, Taunton Market, Mr. Taunton and Top Market have rightly been closed down, as has the Daniel Store in Wellington. Only last week, following just the kind of crackdown that was needed and that I've supported, it cannot be said too often that anyone flouting these laws in Taunton and Wellington or anywhere across the country, can't be said too often to them that illegal trading isn't welcome.

You will be closed down and you will be prosecuted. But, Mr. Dowd, we need to go further. Polling commissioned by Liberal Democrats found that 3 in 5 Brits want to see more power to control the number of vape shops on their high streets. The Chartered Trading Standards Institute has pointed out. We need properly resourced trading standards services, which means tackling local government funding crises, particularly the social care funding crisis, which is a burden under which councils like Somerset are really struggling.

The government, through its Crime and Policing Act 2026, increased the duration of temporary closure notices from 48 to 72 hours by amending the Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014. The main act to that effect, and as recently said, it will extend closure orders from 6 to 12 months to give investigators more time to pursue prosecutions. And Liberal Democrats welcome all these changes. But we want the government to go further, and Liberal Democrat plans councils will be given powers to seek closure orders to more swiftly shut down any shops engaging in criminality.

These powers would be expanded to ensure repeat offenders premises are closed down permanently, while those where the ownership is under question would remain shut until the owner comes forward and faces up to the law. Specifically, Liberal Democrats call for return to proper community policing. For us. For us, that must mean giving the Bobby on the ground more power to deal with this menace more easily and with, crucially, with less paperwork. Officers are currently spending almost half their shift on paperwork when we all want them out and about in our communities.

So I propose the Liberal Democrats propose giving officers the power to close down premises using closure notices for seven days, not just 72 hours, and more importantly, without having to apply to the courts for an order as is currently required under section 80 of the act, safeguarded by requirements that a superintendent must have evidence of more than one instance of illegal activity and by right of appeal to the courts, police officers would then not have the onerous task of preparing an application to the court every time they encounter illegal trading and want to halt it, as they currently are required to do under section 82.

Our changes would mean that officers would be able to close premises quickly and easily, reducing criminal scope for Phoenixing. As we've heard, setting up premises quickly and other locate in under a different company and constraining their ability to set up a nearby alternative premises. The current law allowing closure notices section 76 of the act, restricts grounds to nuisance or disorder. Criminal activity isn't mentioned, so a new law would also correct that omission. And there need to be measures taken against the landlords who repeatedly rent these units to dodgy companies carrying out illegal activity.

We therefore want to see, as my Somerset councillor colleagues have called for, and as trading standards have supported civil penalties against landlords who knowingly let their premises be used for illegal trading, a point also raised by the Chartered Institute. In my view, we should look at repeat offenders amongst landlords losing their premises for at least two years and handing them over to the local council to be let out at reduced rents to the genuine local businesses who all play by the rules. In summary, Mr. Dowd, the changes recently announced by the Home Secretary can't come soon enough, but government should be much bolder.

Liberal Democrats want to see more police on our streets to restore proper community policing, swifter closure orders and notices lasting up to seven days with an end to the burden of paperwork they currently generate, and that slow our police officers down, and penalties for the landlords who repeatedly turn a blind eye to who they are renting their properties to, we need these criminal gangs. Given no quarter in Taunton and Wellington, nor in any other of our town centres around the country. Thank you.
10:38
10:38
None Portrait Speaker 18
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It's a pleasure.
10:38
None Portrait Speaker 26
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To serve with you in the chair, and I congratulate the honourable member for Halesowen for securing this important debate today. For far too many people and in far too many places, the high street has become a visible sign of where the British state has lost control. People suspect that the cash only takeaways, barbershops and vape shops that they see springing up on their high streets are symptomatic of a deeper rot. And as the honourable member for Halesowen and many others this morning have set out, in many cases they are right.

All too often, high street shops like these are linked to organised crime, including through the sale of illicit or counterfeit goods, money laundering and immigration, crime and people smuggling. Last month, the BBC uncovered that people smugglers are directing migrants to pay for illegal channel crossings using a network of high street businesses, including mobile phone shops. In 2024 alone, trading standards seized more than a million illegal vapes and 19 million illegal cigarettes. And as the honourable member for Huddersfield mentioned, the National Crime Agency estimates that £1 billion of crime linked cash is laundered through high street businesses every year.

It's clearly difficult to produce reliable estimates on the subject of things like money laundering, so the real figure may be even higher. The money laundered by businesses like these often fuels human trafficking or the drug trade. The problem is only getting worse. According to one survey, 99% of trading standards professionals have seen an increase in the number of cash intensive businesses opening on their local high streets in recent years. Very often, it's these cash intensive businesses which provide the best fronts for money laundering and the trade in illicit and counterfeit goods, while businesses that do the right thing are struggling with ever more regulation and ever higher taxes, businesses with links to organised crime are thriving.

To combat the rise in illicit activity on our high streets, we must understand the criminal networks that sustain that activity and the link in many cases, between these networks and immigration. Let's imagine, for example, an organised crime gang that's involved in the drugs trade. When that gang sells drugs to people, payment will most often be made in cash because cash is harder to trace. But if that business wants to bring its cash into the financial system, it will need to launder the money so as not to provoke suspicion.

If a person suddenly deposits tens of thousands of pounds with no clear income source, a bank will obviously register that as suspicious. But not so if the money is deposited by high street business. And so the gang might set up a high street shop, something cash intensive and low overhead costs, like a vape shop. The shop records its transactions but adds to those real purchases. A series of phantom cash sales, which are used to disguise the illicit cash raised by the sale of drugs.

The deposit appears legitimate and can be backed up with paperwork. And once that cash is deposited, it can be paid out as profit to those involved in running the organisation as a fake invoice to an overseas supplier, for example, which is paid out to a shell company registered abroad. The criminal gangs involved in the drug trade operate across borders, both financially and physically. They will have overseas suppliers who provide them with the drugs that they sell. These supply networks are often sustained by the links between people of the same nationality, ethnicity or even extended family.

Often, these drug gangs are also involved in other kinds of cross-border smuggling, of counterfeit goods, of illegal tobacco, and indeed, of people. Happily.
10:41
10:41
None Portrait Speaker 26
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I thank the honourable member very much for his intervention, and he is right that the Common Travel Area presents particular challenges, and the sorts of relationships that he's talking about are crucial to being able to maintain that in a way that keeps the public safe in Northern Ireland and indeed in the whole country. If high street shops are already laundering money on behalf of these gangs, they might also sell the things that the gang illegally imports. They might serve as points of contact for people in the country who are looking to smuggle people into Britain illegally.

As was highlighted by the BBC's most recent investigation. And there might also help criminal gangs to bring people into this country by sponsoring their visas. As my hon. Friend the member for Harborough, Oadby and Wigston has highlighted before many cash intensive high street businesses sponsor an absurd number of visas. On paper, these people work for a legitimate high street business, but in practice many of them will be using this as apparently legitimate employment as cover for their work as part of a criminal gang.

Others may be working or forced to work for dramatically less than the minimum wage, both exploiting them and distorting the labour market. And this happens everywhere in the country. In the stunning town of Tenterden, in my constituency, Indian restaurant Badsha was recently found to have been employing illegal migrants for a fourth time, racking up 120 grand in fines and not paying a single penny. And so I would appreciate it if the minister could set out how the Home Office thinks about and plans to tackle the links between illicit activity on the high street, organised crime and immigration and people smuggling, and how the department's plans for tackling illicit activity on the high street take account of these links.

Does the Home Office keep a record of how many businesses raided under high Street?Organised crime operations were also registered visa sponsors?Does the department keep a record of the visa status and visa type of those employed by these businesses?What proportion of high street businesses employing people illegally are repeat offenders, like the one in my constituency?And I would be very grateful if the minister could share, please, what proportion of Operation Machinery's targets in cases related to counterfeit goods, illegal tobacco or vapes, money laundering or the sale of drugs were also involved in illegal working visa fraud or organised immigration crime and people smuggling.
10:43
None Portrait Speaker 8
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Thank you.
10:43
10:43
None Portrait Speaker 27
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Thank you, Mr. Dowd. It's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning. Um, I guess I could summarize this excellent debate, and I'm very grateful to my right hon. Friend the member for Halesowen for bringing this debate. I could summarize it as you've done some stuff that we think is good, but we need to do a lot more, and I think that is the message that I take away from this debate. I think this is undoubtedly something that we will all be judged on when we next stand before the electorate.

Um, myself in Croydon, every member across this place will have experience of a high street that perhaps we grew up going to. And we remember and we know it's never going to be that again. But we know we also need to tell a new story for our high streets. And as shops have closed for lots of reasons that members have outlined, uh, illicit activity has stepped in. Um, so I think the, um, the point that my hon. Friend the member for Thurrock made is a really important one to start with, which is that we have to tackle the criminality, but then we have to establish what are we going to do with our town centres.

And there is some innovation across the country. And people talked about where their town centres are growing, and that's great. And the the government is very aware that we have to understand and appreciate that the town centre of the future will be different. There will be different things there, and we need to change laws to, to and do what we can to encourage a new high street. And so there is a wider piece of work, a high street strategy that is being pulled together at the moment with every government department that could possibly be relevant, coming together and going, what more can we do to make sure our high streets can thrive?For businesses who we know are what we want to see in our high streets, and not this illicit activity?Um, I think the activity itself has been very well described.

And the leadership of, um, my friends, the honourable members for Leigh and Atherton and Great Grimsby have sort of also painted a very good national picture for us in terms of the problems that we see. Um we know that there is this increase in shops and I see it on my high street. Everybody sees it. People aren't in their. How are they making money?Um, and what is going on in that space?I went on a raid as, as other members will have done recently in London, it was a big operation in order to um, jointly with trading standards, local authorities, the police, we, we raided a shop and some of the things that I learned there um, were um, were very uncomfortable to hear increasing number of builders who are being employed by these shop owners to build um, cupboards that are hidden so that people can hide their illegal activity.

Lots of cameras in the back of the shop, not actually to protect the goods, but to keep an eye on the people working there because these are nasty criminal gangs, and they want to make sure that the people they are employing are not stealing from from them, so that the cameras were there to, to keep an eye on the people, not just the property. The young lad that was in the shop when we did the raid was, was, was nothing to do with the ownership. The owner was apparently away.

And this has been talked about understanding actually who the owners are of some of these properties is also complicated and a difficult challenge as well. So I am very well aware of the problem that we are trying to fix. I am very grateful to many honourable members who pointed to the work that the government has already introduced, and I think it is important work, and I don't want to diminish it by saying, of course we need to go further. The new High Street organised crime unit in the Home Office, um, the £30 million that has been allocated to fund the National Crime Agency in part, um, but also um trading standards.

So £6 million of that is going to trading standards. Many members have talked about how trading standards have been completely wiped out, um, in terms of their ability to really respond to today's challenges. And that will help them, um, 1.5 million for immigration enforcement, just to add to all the other work that is happening in immigration. The member asked about the connections. And of course, there are. And just today there was an immigration raid in my own constituency.

Actually, um, 1.5 million also going from that pot to HMRC so that they can do some work. Members talked about companies House and what um, what needs to be done there. And I think there is more work to be done there for sure. Um the closure powers I think are important and I'm glad that members have welcomed those. So the closure notice extension to 72 hours and then the looking ahead to, to, to the longer um 12 month closure, which I think is really important.

Um, I was very interested in what members had to say about the Netherlands. Um, as policing minister, you don't get to go on trips really, but maybe there should be a Netherlands trip, uh, with the campaign group to have a look and see what they, uh, but in the absence of that probably happening, I'll certainly read more into what they're doing and how that regime is working. I think that's a really important point that, um, has been raised. We should, we should look to other countries and understand what what they are doing.

I think of all the many good suggestions that people raised. What I would say is that we are open to, to all of these, there is a um. Ministerial group which is chaired by the Security Minister. We have a new security minister who's introducing new legislation to Parliament today. So it would have been here, but but couldn't she chairs that committee. I'm on that committee. Then you've got all the departments that you would expect to be there.

I think there was a push for Mhclg, I think, to to do work in this space, which I know that they are. I know that they're looking at. And I will, um, certainly talk to them more about it. What I would say is all the suggestions that have been raised today were in that first ministerial meeting, we were talking about all of the same issues. So I know we need to go further and faster, and we need to push forward. But but there was nothing.

Um, surprising in the suggestions that honourable members were making. These are things that we are looking at that are very sensible and that we want to take forward. Um, there was a request for information about when the sort of next national operations will be in terms of operation mechanised, there will be big sort of national pushes, but I can't say when they will be at this point for sort of for sort of obvious reasons. But Operation Mechanised, I think, has worked really effectively where all the agencies come together and work together.

Um, you have a much more effective outcome, obviously. I think all the members made really useful, um, suggestions around more powers for more support for trading standards, looking at licensing, looking at more powers for local authorities. Data sharing was a very important one. And I think that is something that I certainly agree with having somewhere to report into trading standards, direct reporting into trading standards was was an interesting one as well. And then tackling more powers to basically tackle the landlords as well as the organised crime.

What I would just want to say in my last couple of minutes is that the reform programme that we are doing in the Home Office on policing will, I hope, help us tackle these kinds of issues much more effectively. So setting up a national police service that can drive this very, you know, coordinated, serious organised crime in a much better way. So we don't every time there is a new issue, we have to sort of set up a structure to tackle it at a national level. The National Police Service will be there to tackle that, and they will bring together the National Crime Agency, counter-terror and all the other national organisations.

We know that some of this money laundering is driving terrorism. For example. At the moment it's two different bodies that are tackling it. So bringing it together to to bring that coordination at the centre will help. And of course, at the bedrock of our policy in terms of policing, we have the commitment for 13,000 more neighbourhood officers in our streets, and we know that that will make a very significant difference in terms of how people feel about their high streets and the criminal activity that we are able to tackle.

So when people mention, for example, kids hanging outside the illegal shops and doing things that we think they shouldn't be doing, the police will be there to tackle those problems. So can I thank again my hon. Friend the member for Halesowen for bringing this debate. Can I thank all the members?Oh, yes. I forgot to talk about Northern Ireland.
10:53
10:53
10:53
10:54
10:54
None Portrait Speaker 9
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And. To wind up.
10:55
10:55
None Portrait Speaker 8
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Yeah, yeah.
10:55
10:59
None Portrait Speaker 28
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Thank you, Mr. Davis. Pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I beg to move that this House has considered transport requirements in the Marston Vale. I want to say at the outset that I hope this can be a constructive debate. I'm not here to bash the government or to stand in the way of progress. I'm here to open a dialogue with the minister on behalf of the people I serve in Mid Bedfordshire, the Marston Vale in Mid Bedfordshire contains historic villages like Cranfield, Marston, Moretaine, Lidlington, Stewartby and Brogborough, as well as the new town of Wixams.

It also sits at the heart of the government's growth agenda. The universal UK resort will be a £50 billion boost to the UK's economy, bringing millions of visitors every year to Kempston Hardwick, East West Rail, connecting the intellectual powerhouses of Oxford and Cambridge, will run along the Marston Vale line, stopping at Ridgemont, Lidlington and Stewartby. The merger of Cranfield University with King's College London will bring further world class research to the Marston Vale, while the Marston Valley development will see 5000 houses delivered across new villages between Marston, Moretaine and Brogborough.

The Stewartby Brickworks development will see 1000 houses delivered on a brownfield site in Stewartby, the new town of Wixams will continue to be built out over the coming years, with thousands more houses and a new train station, and the government's proposed new town at Milton Keynes, and potential developments at Keepers Place and the Aspley Guise triangle could see tens of thousands more houses built in and around Marston Vale, all in the roughly seven and a half miles between junction 13 of the M1 and the town of Kempston will soon be home to two nationally significant infrastructure projects.

Thousands of new homes and one of the UK's leading universities, all at the centre of the Oxford-cambridge growth corridor and on top of existing significant sites, including the Millbrook Proving Ground. The community, Foster Forest of Marston Vale and the Woburn Forest Centre parks, amongst others. As I said at the beginning of this debate, I'm not here to stand in the way of the growth that our area is set to contribute to the UK. Done right, there are immense opportunities for the Marston Vale, with thousands of new jobs, brilliant new transport links and new communities in our area.

I'll gladly give way.
11:01
11:02
11:02
11:02
None Portrait Speaker 28
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Could I. Thank the my hon. Friend for his intervention. I agree entirely with the scale of the change that we are discussing, particularly in my constituency, and I know in his is vital that these proposals are done with, not done to the residents of Marston Vale and, of course, the residents of his constituency to retain public support. That means proper planning on transport infrastructure that considers the cumulative impact of these nationally significant projects on the local communities. They will sit within.

At the moment, I am afraid that is not happening and public support is slipping away. Transport modelling for the various projects has been siloed and has failed to properly take into account the cumulative impact of proposals. For example, outline planning permission for the 5000 houses at Marston Valley was granted on the basis of transport modelling, which does not consider the impact of universal UK and universal UK's transport modelling does not consider the impact of the 5000 houses. Marston Valley East West Rail proposal proposals increase capacity to serve universal, but they fail to properly plan for the impact that this will have on the local road infrastructure serving local communities, for example, as a result of proposals to increase the number of trains on the line in response to universal UK, they plan to close a number of level crossings in the Marston Vale and leave others with significant downtime throughout the day.

That will have an enormous impact on local communities, effectively bisecting the Marston Vale along the rail line. One of the level crossings that they proposed to close the station Lane at Station Lane in Millbrook, is a key local route for the Marston Valley development. It's also a vital link for the Millbrook Proving Ground, including for the transport of military vehicles. Their alternative route would direct enormous volumes of traffic down country lanes. With today's level of demand. But add to that demand, add to that demand thousands more houses and Europe's biggest theme park and roads like Bury Ware in Lidlington are simply not equipped to cope with the volumes of traffic we're expecting.

East West Rail proposals had broad local support, but new proposals which fail to plan for the cumulative impact of transport pressures in the Marston Vale, now risk eroding that. I would urge the Minister to work with East West Rail to reconsider the impacts of its proposals on level crossings in the Marston Vale, in light of the cumulative development impacts here, we cannot allow it to irreparably damage our communities and turn our country lanes into gridlocked rat runs. Plans to deliver a new multi-storey car park in Lidlington have caused concern that their village could end up as a park and ride for universal UK.

Just one stop up the line on the east West rail on the east west rail. That's not NIMBYism. It reflects a real local concern that good intentions alone are not plans. We cannot stop people parking in lidlington and hopping on the train to universal. But you can alleviate residents concerns and reduce the risk of it by properly planning for and delivering a park and ride elsewhere. The new Ridgmont station, just off the M1, is a prime candidate for such a park and ride, but that station's delivery has been predicated on house building, which does not yet have planning permission and is not yet included in any local plans.

So disjointed planning and concerns about delivery timetables at Ridgemont leave residents in Lidlington and elsewhere fearing the worst. Another impact of the changing demand for transport in our area is that East West Rail's plans for Stewartby station are now out of touch with the needs of local residents. The Stewartby station is a relatively busy station, despite a limited rail service. The station sees around 90,000 passengers per year, almost all of them local and many of them students. At Kimberley College, which is located a short walk from the current station.

East West Rail's plans for the station involve removing it from the village entirely and turning it into a gateway station for universal UK. Now I want to be very clear on this. We absolutely do need an east west rail station to serve universal UK, but there seems to have been very little work done on the implications of the new station location for Stewartby residents and for students of Kimberley College. If the plans remain to build a new universal station and axe the current Stewartby station entirely, the ministers need to ensure that East West Rail urgently work to produce a detailed plan for transport links between the station Stewartby College, Correction, Stewartby Village and Kimberley College.

That plan should include detail on how residents with mobility challenges will be able to get to the station. It should also set out the safeguards that ministers will put in place to ensure that hundreds of students at Kimberley College will be kept safe, using extremely busy station and a much longer journey from the station, likely on foot to the college. The alternative, and something I've been calling for, would be to keep the current Stewartby station operational. In addition to the new station serving universal UK with a limited stopping service operating only at peak mornings and evening times on.

Universal UK. More generally, Mr. Chairman, despite a much publicised announcement earlier this month on the government's infrastructure investment to enable universal UK. Neither the Chancellor nor the Transport Secretary have written to me to outline specifically what that investment would deliver in my constituency. Residents in the Marston Vale want and deserve clarity from government on what infrastructure and particularly transport infrastructure is set to be delivered to facilitate the arrival of millions of visitors to Europe's biggest tourist attraction in their backyard. I hope that the minister might be able to offer some further detail when responding to this debate.

Another good example of transport pressures in our area comes with junction 13 of the M1, which I know the minister knows I will mention in this debate. The government have indicated that junction 13 will be upgraded in the early 2030s, for which my constituents would be grateful. But the time frame for upgrades needs to be urgently reviewed. Junction 13 is unsuitable now. It is already acknowledged to be regularly, severely congested, whilst the Marston Valley development will provide some upgrades to cope with the demand brought by those new houses, it will not consider the volume of additional traffic brought by universal UK.

Junction 13 is a key route for local traffic, as well as traffic passing through our community, with a significant increase in traffic volumes. We need that upgrade now. Junction 13 is not the only significant road infrastructure impacted by local development plans. The vehicle traffic to the universal UK resort will also use the A41 to get there from the M1. The government has, I believe, acknowledged that that this. With investment in new slip roads from the A41 that it will invest in slip roads from the A41 to universal UK.

But we've seen in recent times a significant congestion caused when the A41 is closed. Even with the current levels of demand in September 2024, there was a severe flooding event on the road which saw a dip fill with 72,000,000l of water after a pumping station was overwhelmed. Works have been done to resolve that particular vulnerability, but the traffic chaos that occurred in 2024 demonstrates what happens in the Marston Vale when the A41 is out of commission. That congestion would be many times more significant if the A41 had to be shut for any reason.

After universal UK is built, any respectable transport plan for the Marston Vale needs to consider one key question what is our contingency plan if the A41 is out of action right now we have seen no answer to that question. 13 is also not the only project where timing will be crucial. From the day that the universal UK resort opens in 2031, millions of visitors will pour through its doors. Whether we've built sufficient transport infrastructure or not, but if we've not, then they'll pour through its doors via gridlocked local roads designed for local traffic.

Not the largest theme park in Europe. It's imperative, therefore, that the Marston Vale is home to a national effort to deliver new infrastructure as swiftly as possible. That includes having the new station at Wixams on the Midland Main Line open from day one. It means ensuring that East West Rail between Oxford and Bedford has services running to completed modern stations with step free access, and it means having a road network, especially junction 13, which can cope with the volumes of traffic we're expecting. As I said at the beginning of this debate, Mr.

Chairman, I do not come here to play party politics or bash ministers or rail against the march against progress. I come with a specific request that we see in the Marston Vale, at what we see in the Marston Vale is not unique, but it is unusual. Several projects of national significance contained within roughly seven and a half miles of Bedfordshire, split across Central Bedfordshire Council and Bedford Borough Council. At the moment, the myriad challenges have described are difficult to address because there is no centralised master planning and, as a result, no way to mitigate the various cumulative impacts of individual proposals, which is leading to contradictory solutions.

Because there is no centralised master plan and no single body overseeing these projects, it is also much more difficult to leverage funding to ensure that it is spent in the right places. What I'd like ministers to do is to commit to working with me, with local councillors, with local residents, with key stakeholders like universal on a local developer and others to develop a master plan for transport in the Marston Vale. That master plan should set out exactly what communities in the Marston Vale need to manage the various pressures on our area.

It should include detail about how to strategically manage transport pressures during construction periods, and it should open a conversation about how we secure the right funding to deliver those projects. The rewards of success are clear, enabling the Marston Vale and its residents to play their fullest part in delivering the government's growth agenda. Right at the heart of the Oxford-cambridge growth corridor. But the costs of failure are stark. Residents in the Marston Vale, waking up in the 2030s to discover that they have suffered all of the downsides of growth in their communities, and that some of the benefits of that growth have been squandered for the country as a whole.

Thank you, Mr. Dowd.
11:12
11:12
11:13
None Portrait Speaker 6
-

Pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. Um, can I begin by congratulating the honourable member for Mid Bedfordshire for securing this timely debate and thank him for the way in which he made the case on behalf of his constituents. And I'd also like to acknowledge the efforts of the honourable member and his support for the expansion of forest land at Marston Vale. There is significant opportunity in the Marston Vale, but it's held back by pressing transport challenges. Many of its communities are reliant on cars because public transport options do not yet provide the level of connectivity that people need.

The Marston Vale line has historically suffered from low frequency and reliability issues, while congestion on key routes such as the A41 continues to impact daily journeys. I know that bus services can be limited or fragmented, and active travel routes are not yet sufficient for many residents, and these deficiencies affect access to work to education, healthcare and wider opportunities. They undermine growth in an area that sits at the heart of the Oxford to Cambridge Growth Corridor, which is a priority for this government. How we respond to the transport requirements of the Marston Vale is central to the success of the corridor as a whole, and for the constituents of Mid Bedfordshire to take full advantage of its growth potential now.

Rail is fundamental to our response to the Marston Vale transport needs. It's a project designed to tackle many of the issues the honourable member has raised whilst driving national growth. The government's support for East West Rail represents a major investment in public transport in the honourable member's constituency. As I know he's acknowledged it will mean going from one passenger service per hour up to five services per hour in the Marston Vale, delivering net zero passenger services using battery electric hybrid trains and significantly cutting journey times by upgrading and electrifying the Marston Vale line, introducing more frequent and reliable services and delivering modern, accessible stations.

At Ridgemont, Lidlington and Stewartby East West Rail will transform the experience of rail travel for local communities. It will make rail a more attractive, dependable and sustainable option, reducing reliance on the car and helping to ease pressure on already congested roads. And, crucially, it will also better connect the Marston Vale to the wider region, opening up access to jobs, education, amenities and services across the Oxford to Cambridge Growth Corridor. However, I recognise that this transformation brings concerns, particularly around the impact of works and around level crossings, including at Millbrook.

The move to a faster, more frequent railway requires changes to ensure safety and reliability, including the closure of certain crossings. But I also understand the impact this will have on local communities, and that is why East East West Rail Co has committed to providing alternative routes where closures are proposed, and why feedback from its most recent consultation will carefully taken into account ahead of the application for a development consent order next year. The company will consider how best to manage traffic and housing impacts, taking on board local views set out in the response to the public consultation and of course, set out again today by the honourable member.

As he rightly argued, the transport requirements of the Marston Vale cannot be considered in isolation from the significant growth opportunities now emerging across the corridor. This includes opportunities for new homes along the East West rail route. Potential new towns in Milton Keynes and Tempsford, and the new universal resort at Stewartby. This £5 billion investment by Comcast NBC universal is a landmark development expected to generate nearly £50 billion in economic benefit for the UK and create tens of thousands of jobs. It will also place new and substantial demands on the transport network, with millions of visitors each year and a large workforce drawn predominantly from the surrounding area.

Response has been to ensure that transport infrastructure both supports this development and. And this is really. Importantly, delivers wider benefits for local communities. As has already been said today, the government has committed £1.3 billion to support the project and its surrounding local and regional infrastructure, including investment in transport improvements and. These include the development of Wixams Station in collaboration with Network Rail, and targeted upgrades to the highway network, including along the A41 corridor and the Wixams station, which obviously is on the Midland Main line, is anticipated to open before the Universal Park opens its doors to visitors.

I will give way.
11:18
11:18
None Portrait Speaker 6
-

I thank him for his question, and I will ensure that my colleague, the Roads Minister, writes to him with further information on those plans. Importantly, we are also working to ensure that the result is fully integrated into the wider transport system, particularly through East West Rail and its new station at Stewartby. This will allow visitors and employees to access the site by rail from across the region and beyond, reducing pressure on roads and promoting more sustainable travel patterns. We are clear that the that a development of this scale, alongside other development opportunities and potential new towns at Tempsford and Milton Keynes, must act as a catalyst for a high quality integrated transport network for the Marston Vale, one that benefits residents as well as visitors.

Now, while strategic investments are essential, meeting the transport requirements of the Marston Vale also depends on improving everyday local journeys and I recognise the concerns the honourable member raised on behalf of local residents. That is why the Department is working closely with Bedford Borough Council, neighbouring authorities and England's economic heartland to develop a transport opportunity plan for the area. This work is focused on delivering a more coherent and connected local network, enhancing local bus services, improving walking and cycling routes and ensuring better links between communities, stations and key destinations.

We recognise that the current provision is not sufficient, particularly for those without access to a car, and this work will bring together local authorities, transport operators and other partners to address those gaps in a coordinated way. I'm sure the honourable member welcomes that an integration task force has also been established, bringing national expertise to bear on this challenge. Its role is to ensure that all modes rail, road, bus and active travel are planned and delivered as part of a single integrated vision aligned with the department's better connected strategy.

The honourable member referenced the importance of M1 junction 13, which is why it's a pipeline scheme set out in the Roads Investment Strategy. The third Roads Investment strategy. Um, and I've already committed to ensure that the Roads Minister writes in response to his concerns relating to resilience and the A 41 the government has committed to supporting England's economic heartland as the subnational transport body to promote integrated transport, helping to ensure that as many communities as possible can benefit from these transformational connections. In closing, I want to thank the honourable member again for securing this debate and for the constructive approach that he has taken.
11:21
11:22
11:23
14:30
None Portrait Speaker 1
-

Today on a pub crawl around my constituency. We have. The. If you. Fiscal support. It really is a debate about our heritage and to demonstrate that, I'd like to take honourable members here. If one or you were to come to Meriden, Solihull. We have the historic grade two listed malt shovel in Boston, dating back to the late 15th or early early 16th century, which is widely regarded as one of the oldest pubs in the borough of Solihull.

There's also the Queen's Head in Meriden, which was a former 17th century coaching inn. We would then move on to Hampton in Arden, where there's the White Lion, another 17th century pub with traditional architecture. I should at this stage say I don't actually drink, so I'm happy to drive members if they come. From Hampton Arden. We would then travel to Catherine de Barnes, where there is the excellent boat, which has a tremendous beer garden for sunny afternoons in Dorridge. There's the Railway Inn, which is right next to the station, and often serves hardworking commuters.

After a long day's work. And there's also the forest in Dorridge, which is a 19th century coach house just by the train station, serving tremendous food and drink with great rooms for weary guests. There's also the Drummond monkey, my local, a famous country pub with a history dating back to the 1860s. And then after all of that, we would end up in the historic village of Knowle, where I want everyone with me. In the village there are a number of pubs that we can choose from, but we would have a couple that I've selected, like the Wilsons Arms, which is a Toby Carvery.

Now. To them I say thank you community, character and identity. Concerned at the impact of the government's policies on our rural pubs. I will, of course, start by talking about the economic importance and the contribution that they bring to the economy. And of course, our residents. To them I say thank you, community, character and identity. This is what our rural pubs represent and this is why they are worth fighting for and why I'm here today.

Concerned at the impact of the government's policies on our rural pubs. I will, of course, start by talking about the economic importance and the contribution that they bring to the economy, especially for rural areas, and there is no doubt that the UK's pub and brewing sector plays an enormous role in rural constituencies across the UK. Rural pubs provide jobs and huge economic value, according to the British Beer and Pub Association, the pub and brewing sector supports over 300,000 jobs in rural constituencies in the UK and combined rural pubs and breweries contribute almost £11 billion to the economy and generate £7 billion in tax.

In addition, those rural pubs, as I've already outlined, are steeped in all all their history and heritage, attracting tourism from across the country and the world. And tourism is estimated to be responsible, is responsible for around one third of employment in rural pubs. And make no mistake, people come from all over the world to spend time in the great British countryside and enjoy the excellent food and drink that we put out in our great pubs, in all of our constituencies, but particularly for members gathered here from rural seats, the influence of pubs in our constituencies is enormous and for me personally, I'm immensely proud of the pubs in Meriden and Solihull East.

We have almost 40 local pubs which support 1740 jobs of their cohort. There are 516 to 24 year olds working in the sector, and that has an overall contribution of £61 million to the local economy. In the wider West Midlands, there are over 4000 rural pubs which employ 88,000 people, contributing £2.9 billion to the economy. But aside from the huge, enormous, a huge economic impact of these pubs, there is also. They are also vital parts of the fabric of our rural communities.

They provide food and drink, places to stay, and some of our historic pubs span back centuries. Truly, truly making them part of our great and unique British history.
14:34
14:35
14:36
14:37
None Portrait Speaker 1
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I couldn't agree. More with my hon. Friend than actually, that is exactly why we're here today, because I'm really concerned about the core of our communities being hollowed out by government interventions for elderly people, in particular, good pub lunch, which serves great drinks and warm food, can be a staple in their weekly routine. It is therefore no wonder that two thirds of adults believe their local pub is vital to combating loneliness and social isolation. So I gently say on the back of that intervention to the minister, if we lose a rural pub, does he recognise that that has a huge impact on our rural communities?Where are those people meant to go?Doctor Thomas Reid, from Loughborough University has conducted some fascinating research into the social value of pubs in local communities.

The project looked at the impact of pub closures on communities and made very clear that the loss of a pub, as my hon. Friend has said, is so much more than just the loss of a business doctor Reid made clear that closing pubs echoes throughout the entire community, impacting friendships, identities and vital local support networks in ways that cannot be captured by data alone. As traditional community infrastructure like banks like village halls, post offices also come under pressure, pubs are more important than ever. Important anchors in our rural communities.

For rural areas, some pubs now act as more than just a place to meet and socialise. They have essential services such as micro post offices, prescription drop offs, Wi-Fi hubs and my hon. Friend set out barbers and even house part time library shelves. Research from the Rural Services Network has also found that for every pound spent investing in the provision of services and activities in the pub, an average of £8.28 of social value is created. It examined that the diverse new services pubs offer in local communities have lasting positive impacts on the overall well-being for individuals and their families, as well as in reducing loneliness, improving mental health and giving people greater independence.

So Madam Chair, having spoken at great length about the value and importance of rural pubs, I'm really concerned about the government's intervention and and the lack of support for this vital industry. Some of our best pubs are in the Chancellor's crosshairs. Last Labour has hit rural pubs with increased taxes, a litany of new burdensome legislation that is killing them off the pub and the brewing sector is among the most highly taxed of any business sector, with around £1 in every £3 spent in the pub. Going back to HMRC, one of the most egregious taxes is the government's National Insurance raid on our businesses.

Having spoken with representatives from the UK's beer and pub sector, there is no doubt that Labour's rise in national insurance has had a huge impact on rural pubs. Just last week, Simon Emeny, the chairman of Fuller's, said that pubs are facing an unprecedented pressure from Labour's tax rises. The lowering of NI has. The lowering of the national insurance threshold has had a deep impact on publicans, given the nature of pub work, pubs are one of the major employers of young people. The sector employs 58% of people on a part time basis, which means lowering the threshold has forced pubs to reconsider their hiring practices.

I will.
14:39
14:40
None Portrait Speaker 1
-

I think the honourable member makes an interesting point, and I think the Republicans have spoken to me about taxes. They talk to me now about their turnover either increasing or staying stable, but it's the costs that have gone up, and I think the government has to set out what they're going to do to improve the fiscal landscape for pubs and the hospitality industry. More broadly. Madam Chair, lots, lots, of course, has been made of Lord Milburn's report on NEETs, who are not those not in education, employment or training, and the rising number of 16 to 24 year olds that are in this category.

But I wonder if the minister has considered the impact of these tax rises on pub specific jobs. This is because around 51% of people working in the pubs are under the age of 24, meaning many are likely to be balancing work in the pub with other part time commitments like school or university. These new employment costs mean that publicans will think again about hiring staff on a part time basis, driving many people into Worklessness and the National, the National Insurance rise has single handedly had the most damaging effect on the Saturday job.

I also want to just talk about business rates because in addition to crippling jobs, tax pubs are also suffering because of stifling increases in business rates. These policies threaten to be a huge nail, maybe even the final nail in the coffin. For many pubs that are really struggling. Analysis from UK hospitality has found that by 2728, the average pubs business rates will be £4,500 higher than today, rising to an astonishing £12,900 within three years. Even with with the reduced multiplier and transitional relief.

I asked one of my staff members how much they paid for a pint of beer. One of the pubs in my constituency, and they said a pint of lager came to £7.50. That means that pub would have to sell an extra 1720 pints, just to offset the cost of these shocking tax increases. The conservatives recognise the value of our pubs. We have pledged to scrap business rates for 250 000 retail, hospitality and leisure businesses by 100%. This is because we recognise the importance of ensuring businesses keep more of what they earn, allowing them to invest in the community rather than sending it back to central government.

And I say to the minister, governments do not create growth. They do not create jobs. It's our businesses that do. This announcement formed part of our larger campaign to get Britain working in, freeing up money for businesses to hire new people, often younger and always local. It will drive new jobs and economic growth across rural areas in the UK. But building on this last month, the Telegraph also revealed that landlords will be hit with a new nice pub tax under new guidelines.

It found that the HMRC has ordered officials to levy higher business rates on pubs that are in attractive locations or are based in character properties. This is a complete disaster and could mean many pubs are forced to. Absolutely a good question.
14:43
14:43
14:44
14:44
None Portrait Speaker 1
-

I will speed up, Madam Chair, under your guidance, but I would encourage him to wait till I finish, because it is actually the litany of regulation, such as in the Employment Rights Bill, the taxes that they've raised that has had a huge impact. And I would say I would say that Labour is waging a war on our rural pubs. Those publicans can feel it. We can all see it. And, Madam Chair, with your guidance, I will bring my comments to a quick close.

But I know we're all looking forward to England's first World Cup game against Croatia this evening, and obviously I, along with all members, I wish them all the very best. But we do have some of the highest alcohol duty, uh, on a pint of beer. Uh, and while I'm, uh, while I don't want to broach the subject of the EU, but I will say, well, I'm not not a natural fan of closer alignment. It seems that Europe is in a better place on this.

So I certainly ask the minister to comment, uh, on, uh, on that. Um, I will, uh, in conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, the as I've said, these pubs are a sorry. Madam Chair. Um, hopefully one day. Madam Deputy Speaker um, I say, I say to the minister, there is a huge impact of the litany of, uh, measures taken by this government. It's impacting our young people. It's affecting Saturday jobs. It's having a huge impact.

Um, I encourage you that passion is shown. I encourage him to show that bravery today. So perhaps, maybe those England fans will be chanting his name tonight, but he has to show that bravery. Thank you, Madam Chair.
14:46
14:47
None Portrait Speaker 7
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Servant to you. And I congratulate the honourable member for securing today's debate. Um, as someone who used to represent this industry, um, I understand the challenges that have been facing our pubs for many years, not just the last two years, but a decade of changing attitudes and behaviors that often lead many of us not to go to the pub as much as we used to. And if it was for not our service in this place, I'm sure many of us would be enjoying a pint or two watching England this evening and enjoying the extra hours.

Licensing provided by this government to celebrate the World Cup. Um, I wouldn't be as cynical as as as others perhaps, or maybe I am going to be to mention a variety of pubs in my constituency that I think my residents should perhaps enjoy tonight, whether they go to the Golden Cross or the coach and horses in Harvington, or whether they go to the old ball or balls head in Inkberrow. Uh, whatever happens tonight, I hope they spend their money in my local pubs, in our villages. Because in Inkberrow, Feckenham and Hanbury, the local is often the last community asset standing.

The place where people gather, where older residents find connection, and where the social fabric of our villages is woven. Many of them, many of them have become temporary post offices in my constituency as well. And and I also want to thank the minister who is responding today for his engagement during the process of business rates. Um, I was one of those Labour members who darkened his door with concerns and with recommendations for changes, and it is not lost on me that those changes were of £400 million extra for our pubs in this country.

And I thank him for his honest engagement throughout the process. That's something all backbenchers should welcome during this process. I welcome the 15% business rates discount and the frozen multiplier for the average pub, which is up nearly £1,650. But the sector warns that there are deeper structural reliefs needed and that 15,000 jobs could be lost over the next couple of years if there isn't further change. And this is the reality I hear from licensees across my constituency. So I just wanted to gently suggest some things for the future the minister might want to consider.

Firstly, the business rates methodology review must reflect the unique trading model of rural, wet led pubs. They are not the same as urban pubs. They are not the same trading model. Second, we must expand draught relief and go further where possible. Third, we must strengthen asset of community value protections and make it easier for communities to take over vulnerable pubs through co-operative models. Pub is the hub. There's excellent work and if anyone is not aware of that scheme, I think they should definitely make themselves aware of it because it's doing incredible work and deserves more support.

You know, our pubs are just not peripheral amenities. They are institutions. If we allow them to disappear, we're not just we don't just lose businesses, we lose the heart of our communities. And it is so hard right now to start a new business for a variety of reasons, for those different attitudes and different behaviours that we've talked about, about where people like to spend their money or where they like to enjoy a drink now. And I do fear that if we lose some of these rural pubs in our communities, we will lose many of the other businesses that rely on them.

So, um, I would just like to thank again the Minister for his cooperation and for his support and engagement through this process. But there is a lot more work to do to make sure that we keep these businesses safe in our constituencies.
14:50
None Portrait Speaker 6
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Helen Miller, thank.
14:50
None Portrait Speaker 8
-

You very much, Mr. President. It's a pleasure to speak with you in the chair. I'd like to congratulate the honourable member for Solihull East and Meriden for securing this important debate. I would like to begin with two people whom I represent. Becky runs the Red line and Ensham. She met the small business minister at my invitation earlier this year following a question. So some in the chamber, including the smiling Minister, may already know her story.

Her turnover is up. Her profits have, however, vanished. Her words, not mine, are that there is no living to be made any more from her rural pub. And I'd like the chamber to think about what that means. The customers are still there, they are still spending. And yet she is squeezed to the point of asking herself whether to carry on at all. Secondly, I'd like to represent Donna, who runs the Oxfordshire Yeoman in Freeland. Donna has faced the uncontrollable in the last few months a washout summer when summer trade is the very thing a rural pub banks on to survive the winter and stacked on top of that, the entirely controllable £0.50 minimum wage rise, soaring energy bills and rising water bills all landing at once.

Mr.. When you have landlords counting every penny and the customer counting every penny on the same evening, you aren't watching a market finding its level, but a trade being hollowed out from underneath. Let us consider the scale of the loss. 161 pubs closed across England, Scotland and Wales in the first quarter of this year alone, more than two a day. Those closures took roughly 2400 jobs with them, and I want to emphasise that there's a huge difference between losing a pub in a city and losing one in a village.

When an urban pub closes, a community loses an option. But when a rural pub closes, a community loses its social space and it almost never comes back. The rural pub sits alongside the church and the village hall as part of the fabric of some of our smaller communities, and these closures represent a loss of identity and cohesion in communities like mine. Should ask why is the rural pub more exposed?Well, they tend to have lower footfall. They tend to face higher energy and supply costs, and it's far harder for them to diversify their income.

Running costs across hospitality are up around 43% since 2019, and one third of these businesses are operating at a loss. I'd like to turn to what might actually help first, VAT and energy. Becky's case is one of simple fairness. Why should British hospitality pay roughly double the vat of comparable European countries?The Liberal Democrats would cut VAT on hospitality by 5% until April 2027. Now, not after yet another review, and we would remove the main renewable levy from energy bills taking over £90 a year off.

The typical bill, funded by a windfall tax on the banks. Taken together, that's £270 back in the average households pocket over 18 months, allowing them more opportunity to buy a pint or a meal in their local pub. Secondly, on business rates in January, the government discounted 15% of the planned rate hikes for pubs. But Becky's rateable value was hiked phenomenally before the freeze arrived, locking the damage in and the relief does nothing for shops, restaurants, cafes and the wider high street. So our ask is straightforward the government must deliver the full £20 discount promoted to promise to all retail, hospitality and leisure businesses and in the interim, should keep the 75% relief and freeze the small business multiplier, madam chair, before I close, I wish to refer briefly to the role of small breweries in our communities, like the Tap Social in Kidlington, Little Oxford, Freeland or the Twisted Tree Brewery in Tusmore.

These are SMEs in the community that combine a passion for independent brewing with a commitment to creating local jobs, yet further to the impact of pub company ties on landlords, the large brewers are locking small breweries out of our village pubs. Fewer than 40% of local pubs are open to small, independent breweries, so I ask the minister if he will encourage ministers in the Department for business to look at this barrier to market access and, as part of the current Pubs Code review, to consider a guest beer arrangement in England and Wales, similar to that which exists in Scotland.
14:54
None Portrait Speaker 2
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Excellent.
14:54
None Portrait Speaker 9
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Thank you, Madam Chair. I serve on the. A big thank you to the honourable member for Meriden and Solihull for raising this issue and. And as always in a debate, I will give a Northern Ireland perspective of the issues. I speak for the small villages, for the crossroads. When the tight knit communities where our rural pub is not merely a commercial business, it's a vital community hub. It's a village town hall, it's a local meeting place.

It's a front line defense against rural isolation. And it's a cornerstone of our £2 billion tourism economy. Yet today, these historic institutions are hanging by a thread, suffocating under a mountain of unsustainable operational costs. We have heard the warnings loud and clear from the industry's front line, and I want to pay a special tribute to Colin Neil, M.B.E., the chief executive of Hospitality Ulster Madam, and numerous occasions. Probably everyone here, probably madam as well. Minister I know has Collins been a tireless champion for our Republicans, masterfully making the case both at Stormont and also here in Westminster.

He's warned that this government and we have to be. Minister, forgive me for being graphic, but I think we have to be factual in how we present the cases. That this government, in no uncertain terms, that our local hospitality sector is in deep distress following the impact of soaring energy bills, skyrocketing national insurance contributions, upcoming business tax Reevaluations Colin has rightly pointed out that the current tax burden is squeezing the very life out of local employment. Hospitality Ulster's own data shows that nearly half of our operators have been forced to reduce staff numbers.

Where we look for growth in the economy, for job creation, we've lost it. This is a full blown, a full blown crisis, madam chair, our rural pubs face a unique structural disadvantage compared to the rest of the United Kingdom. In Great Britain, pubs have benefited from various configurations of business rates relief, but in Northern Ireland our publicans are facing the terrifying prospect of massive hikes in their rates. Bill, a move that Cornelius has warned would be the absolute ruination of our hospitality industry and, by extension, a severe blow to the Northern Ireland economy.

Furthermore, our traders are forced to compete on an uneven playing field with the Irish Republic right across the border, where the government has previously previously used targeted VAT reductions to protect our hospitality trade to our disadvantage in Northern Ireland. We cannot stand by and idly by. And watch our rural heritage being wiped out by the fiscal inertia. This is a sector that accounts for four out of every five tourism jobs in Northern Ireland. Therefore, for us in Northern Ireland. It's a critical, important factor and one that we can't deny and can't ignore.

If the Department for economy is to meet its growth targets, and I know the minister will want to encourage Northern Ireland to to to grow and meet its targets. It needs a thriving hospitality sector to anchor it. Therefore, alongside my DUP colleagues and the minister we have back home, I'm calling on the Chancellor and the UK government and the minister here to coordinate directly with the Stormont Executive to deliver a targeted, ringfenced package of fiscal interventions with three things we need. We need a reduction in the hospitality BA rate to lower the structural burden on food and drink operators.

We need urgent energy cost reform to protect rural businesses that do not have the footfall of Belfast establishments, and we need a reformed, reality based rail system that treats hospitality as an economic driver to be supported and not a cash cow to be milked until it's dead, which is really what I see happening. It is asking for the chance to survive and grow. I echo that sentiment today. Give Republicans the breathing room that they deserve, especially those rural ones who can't work on economy of scale, deliver the fiscal support our rural economies desperately need before the lights go out on our rural pubs for good.

I support the honourable gentleman for bringing this forward. I hope that our minister here today can give us some answers, announcements that we need desperately.
14:57
None Portrait Speaker 10
-

Thank you. Miss Hobhouse is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. And can I congratulate my hon. Friend for securing such an important debate today. Uh, can I also thank me from my office for his support in helping my my notes for today's debate. We all know how much pressure rural pubs are facing, but I'd like to highlight many of the positive stories my constituents have told me about the impact of their impact on our community. I recently met Bob from Kings Langley, whose young daughter, Abby is living with stage four cancer on a wheelchair and on 24 hour oxygen following a double lung transplant.

Bob told me about Debbie and Eddie, the landlords of the Unicorn in Abbots Langley, who have gone above and beyond to support Abby and her family, making sure the unicorn remains a safe and welcoming place for her. The unicorn has organised events specifically for Abby, including the SIP and Paint party, where 12 of her friends painted a portrait that now hangs proudly in their family home. Knowing Abby is a Robbie Williams fan, The unicorn arranged a tribute act to perform. Unfortunately, Abby had to go into hospital that day, but despite that, Debbie was able to stream it for Abby on a video call.

When Bob later organised a skydive in support of the Hospice of Saint Francis, which cares for Abby and of which I am proud to be a patron. The unicorn hosted a fundraising event that raised more than £1,400 for the hospice. Debbie has shown us that our rural pubs are so often a source of friendship, support and hope for families facing the most difficult circumstances. More. Of course, more.
14:59
15:00
None Portrait Speaker 10
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It's absolutely my pleasure to do so. Um, being a bit cheeky though, I think some of the blackouts might come a bit more frequently with this government's policy on energy prices. Um, more wider across south west Hertfordshire, another constituent from South Oxhey. Tell me about the Dick Richardson, who hosts free sandwiches on Wednesdays, a weekly OAP afternoon and a family Easter egg hunt. Other constituents in Kings Langley praised Pete, the landlord of the Saxons head, and his staff, for always being community focused and creating a welcoming atmosphere.

Michelle told me about the coach and horses in Rickmansworth, who for decades have put on a complimentary lunch for the Watford Mencap pancake race that she organises and which I have had the honour to to open on several for several years now, raising vital funds for those with learning disabilities. I've had the privilege of visiting these pubs in my pubs tour last year, hearing from publicans across south west Hertfordshire directly, but it was moving to hear from constituents about their favourite pubs. Some of the top key words mentioned were staff, atmosphere, community, welcoming, local family but specifically on the word community.

Um. Mentioning about what is actually sold in the pubs as well. Um, while we speak about beer a lot, a third of drinks sold in hospitality are spirits. Many people do prefer gin and tonic to a pint. Pubs and the distilleries distilleries that supply them are suffering from excise duty increases of 17% in the last three years. I also recently met Kate Nicholls from UK hospitality, who I know many in this chamber will know, who said pubs are choosing to close on quieter days and operate shorter hours, making it more difficult to maintain exactly that community we have been speaking about in this debate, where the pubs operate as the beating heart of our villages and in conclusion, the conservatives would introduce a permanent 100% business rates relief for hospitality, retail and leisure, capped at £110,000 per business, funded through £47 billion of savings, cutting the ever increasing welfare bill and civil service publicans in south west Hertfordshire have been telling me that this government are ringing pubs for cash, instead of treating them as places we need to protect, and this is especially true in our rural communities, which the word community so often depends on the pub.
15:02
None Portrait Speaker 12
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Thank you. And it's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Madam chair, I also thank the honourable member for bringing this important and timely debate. And I want to put on record that I am an officer of the Appg hospitality and tourism in my constituency of Stratford on Avon. Pubs are a central part of our local economy and job creation. The rural pub is also the beating heart of village life, domestic and international tourists alike flock to our array of historic pubs and alehouses to drink a crisp pint in a picturesque setting.

And it goes without saying that as locals like them very much too. I have many pubs in my constituency, too many to name them. All fantastic places to eat, drink and socialise. This reality is threatened, however, by the monumental challenges faced by all hospitality businesses in recent years. The local pub, once a staple of every town and village, is now an endangered species in Stratford on Avon. Treasured long standing pubs are on the brink of closing in rural, often isolated areas.

The village pub is the only community infrastructure still standing after the school, the post office and the local shop closed. It's where quiz nights and coffee mornings are held and where social life happens. Despite their social and economic value to the community, a rural pubs are far fighting on all fronts, and one such pub is the Golden Cross, Ardens Grafton, a cherished 18th century family run pub situated in the heart of the pretty south Warwickshire countryside. Within easy reach of the town of Stratford upon Avon, and with views of the Vale of Evesham and the Cotswolds, you would have thought that a more perfect setting for a profitable pub could not be imagined.

But with almost the feeling of inevitability just earlier this month, it closed its doors for the very last time. This has been a heartbreaking decision for the owners, who did everything they could to avoid closure. But with rising operating costs, increased wage bills, higher National Insurance contributions, escalating energy costs and supplier price increases, they simply had no other choice but to say goodbye to the business that supports the livelihood of their families and their supported community life. Elsewhere in my constituency, it was only through the intervention of the local residents and of the charity Plunkett UK that the Fox and Loxley was saved from the same fate and has become a community owned pub.

When will it be that the government intervenes to save our pubs and our wider hospitality industry?The government's policies should be providing the platform for our pubs and hospitality businesses to thrive. Regarding the emergency pub relief, this has been eaten up by cuts in relief and steep increases in rateable values from April 2026, business rates must be reviewed and made fairer for a government who claims its main objective is economic growth. It boggles the mind that they thought the way to do this was to increase employer national Insurance contributions, a measure that disproportionately impacts hospitality, raising costs for part time staff and hitting small and medium sized businesses the hardest.

And that is why myself and my Liberal Democrat colleagues have been calling on the government to exempt hospitality. Small and medium sized enterprises from the employer. National insurance contributions increase and to cut the VAT on hospitality businesses by 5% in other countries of Europe, the hospitality sector has even a 10% VAT, which means they can grow and employ more people. Rural pubs are among the providers of first jobs for our young generations, forming the foundation of a working life, learning so many skills each day.

I don't know what evidence the government needs to see before he believes that our pubs are in crisis point and another U-turn is necessary. But I hope that the Minister today will take the Golden Cross in my constituency as further evidence that the current situation is entirely unsustainable for our pubs and that government intervention is needed now to save our pubs from extinction.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 14
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Madam Chair. It's a pleasure to serve under you today. May I congratulate the honourable member for Meriden and Solihull East for securing this timely, in my view, very important debate. So pubs aren't just places to grab a drink. Anyone who's grown up in a rural town or village knows that they're where you meet your neighbours, where someone checks in on you when you're having a rough time, where a young person gets their first job and learns how to show up for work, they're woven into the fabric of this country.

So when I say the pressure on rural pubs right now is serious, I don't mean it lightly. A constituent whose family runs a local pub was recently in touch with me to tell me that they are quite literally on the precipice when it comes to staying afloat as a business. They're not complaining about thin margins or a bad few months here. They're talking about whether they have a future at all. Rising costs, business rates, national insurance wages. It's coming from every direction at once.

Viv. Viv has run the Lansdowne Arms on Station Street in Lewes for 23 years. I invited her to Parliament a few months back to meet with the hospitality minister. Viv told us straight out that she doesn't know how much longer she can keep her business going. Her rateable value has gone up by £22,250. That's roughly £1,600 every single month. Additional that she has to find so many pubs in my constituency of Lewes are in similar positions.

These crippling policies are the difference between keeping staff on and cutting their hours between fixing the kitchen or leaving it, and hoping for the best. And once a rural pub closes, we all know it almost never comes back. In 2020, there were 75 pubs in my constituency. That's down from 95 in 2011. That's a 21% decrease in under ten years. At that rate, 50 years from now, there'll be no pubs at all left in Lewes constituency, and we're seeing that played out in the village of Plumpton.

Right now. Local people are trying to buy the Fountain Inn themselves. Stuart Wallace and the Fountain Inn Community Benefit Society have pulled together nearly £300,000 in pledges. That's remarkable. Her Majesty the Queen, who grew up nearby, has thrown her support behind it. But honestly, should people people have to crowdfund to save one of the last pubs in their area, that shouldn't be where we are right now. There are bright spots to take the Steamworks at Glynde Station.

It's a great example, an old station building that I was proud to play. A very small part in turning into a proper local hub as well as a pub. It shows what's possible when people are given a bit of support and a bit of breathing room. And I'm meeting today with Harvey's Brewery, famous brewery based right in the heart of my constituency in the town of Lewes, a family brewery that's been part of our County of Sussex for generations, quietly underpinning pubs, jobs and local identity in a way that rarely gets talked about from the long man in Wilmington, just down the road to the Eight Bells in Jevington, which won Best pub in Sussex in the 2026 Bravo Awards.

The overall picture is worrying and the government needs to take it very seriously. The Liberal Democrats are calling for an emergency VAT cut for hospitality, pubs, restaurants, venues until April 2027 on business rates. The promised reform has not worked for a lot of pubs. In some cases it's made things worse. We need proper relief maintained for retail and hospitality. While a genuinely fair system is designed, not a rushed patch that leaves pubs worse off than they were before.

On National Insurance, you cannot automate a pub, you can't replace the person behind the bar, the chef out the back, or the young young person who's doing their first shift on a Friday night with an app or a machine. Hospitality is people powered, and the rise in employer National Insurance has landed hardest on exactly the kind of small, local businesses that deserve support, not another squeeze. Pubs are also often stuck in an expensive tie that doesn't give them the flexibility to be competitive in the modern market.

I'm not asking for anything complicated. I'm asking the government to actually listen to Viv at the Lansdowne Arms and to the locals, and indeed Her Majesty the Queen trying to save the Fountain Inn in Plumpton. These places serve their communities for generations. It's time the government returned the favour.
15:11
None Portrait Speaker 15
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Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I say what a pleasure it is to contribute to this debate under your chairmanship?And I'm reminded of my youth in bath, where I first attended pubs, the Assembly in. But as the subject of today's debate is rural pubs, I shall move quickly to my constituency and I wanted to reference in my contribution the chickpea group, which was founded by a brother and sister team just seven years ago. Local. People with one of their school friends and they have gone from selling a few pizzas in the back of a pub in Wilton in my constituency, to now having over a dozen establishments across Hampshire, Dorset and South Wiltshire.

And I spoke to Jordan Davids this morning to really get to the heart of what she feels about the challenges that exist in this thriving business, and she said to me that essentially they have grown and prospered because of the support of locals. But despite some of the changes that have been made in recent times, and as a former Treasury minister, I do empathise with the significant challenges in terms of balancing the books, and I sat in that position in years past where lots of easy solutions were offered with sincerity, but also recognising there was a gap.

I recognise there is a gap sometimes between the complexity and delivering and the and the reality on the ground. Now this group chickpea group have grown 2 to 3 new venues every year. And what they're saying to me is that it's the combination of a number of factors together. And in my experience, it is very difficult for Treasury officials to evaluate the combined impact of increases in the National Living wage, one made in one domain and one set of decision making. The threshold and the rate increases in terms of national insurance, then the behavioural effects of employment rights, then the ongoing challenges of energy costs.

Before we get into the incredibly complicated issue of business rates. But it is, though, the reality for the person on the ground running one of those five establishments in my constituency, the Grosvenor Arms, the Pembroke Arms, the Queen's Head, the Silver Plough, as well as the establishments in the Market Square in Salisbury that they have to deal with all of those together. So I say to the minister, who will no doubt very professionally and skillfully explain the end of the reliefs and what the government have put in with a new, lower multiplier.

But he must also come to terms with the fact that it is in the fusion of all those factors together, that the individual business owner is finding great difficulty at the moment. Now, I, as I say, I stand to applaud the success of Ethan and Jordan Davids and their original business partner, Tommy Tullis, in actually moving forward through difficult times. And it wasn't all great under the previous government as well, I acknowledge that, but we have got to the point where we need a rational analysis of all those factors that are making it difficult for rural businesses and colleagues have mentioned all the other factors that particular to a rural location.

It does need a thoughtful intervention from the government, one that looks at the behavioural effects and actually, honestly deals with a problem that isn't going away and they tell me, is very severe for the future prospects of their business and ones like it.
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None Portrait Speaker 16
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Thank you. Mr..
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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It's a.
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None Portrait Speaker 17
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Pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, and I congratulate the honourable member for Meriden and Solihull East for securing this debate. Ely and East Cambridgeshire is a very rural area and in many of my villages, the pub is the only place left for local people to gather, meet and socialise. According to camera, we've lost or at risk of losing 609 pubs since January this year and 60 of those are definitely lost forever because they've been demolished or converted. My own village of reach. We nearly lost our pub back in 1999.

The villagers bought it and it's now run as a fully commercial business on a long lease, with the freehold belonging to the parish council. It sits at the one end of the Devil's Dyke, so it's been renamed the Dykes End, and it remains a very successful and popular pub. I meet regularly with my publicans network and the local camera groups, and they tell me about what the pubs do to support community events, social interaction, combating loneliness, helping with mental health, providing young people with their first job, training them in communication and hospitality skills.

But they are really struggling financially. National insurance business rates, energy costs. They come up over and over again, which is why the Lib Dems are calling for a 5% cut on VAT for pubs action to reduce their energy costs and replacing business rates. All of our communities and publicans deserve better support. But I'd like to highlight two in my constituency, the Carpenters Arms in Soham was voted Cameras Rural Pub of the year in 2024. It has an amazing array of of real ales.

It has a beautiful garden out the back. It has community events. It's a real part of that market town in my constituency and more recently, the Black Horse in Brampton has been voted cameras East Anglia Cider Pub of the year 2026, and they have a whole wall full of different ciders you'd have to visit regularly to try them all, one of which is the Fox Hey Cider, which is actually made in Brampton using local apples. So they're supporting small local businesses as well. And as we've heard, it's these small rural pubs that are also supporting those wonderful micro and small breweries that need people who can take small amounts and who can get through it quickly so that it doesn't go off, unlike commercial beers, it doesn't have the same length of life.

So our pubs, as we've heard, really are the hub of our communities. But if we continue to overtax them, we will continue to lose them with all the impact that will have on our local communities. So will the minister commit today to asking the government to reduce those taxes and allow our pubs to thrive?
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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I.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Thank you, chair. It's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, and I thank the honourable member for Meriden and Solihull East for securing this debate. In. In Iron Acton was built in 1690. It is believed Mary and William of Orange stayed there. It's a real community pub and has been run by Tracey and Brendan Byrne for the last 20 years, but the Burns tell me that a long list of burdens are bearing down on them. Employer National Insurance contributions, business rates, VAT, alcohol, duty every single one under the direct control of this government.

That is the reality facing rural pubs across Thornbury and Yate and indeed the country. These are not simply places to drink, they're community anchors, spaces for lonely meeting points for neighbours, outlets for local breweries and farmers in villages and hamlets without the footfall that town centre pubs enjoy, and with often higher energy costs, they cannot absorb pressure the way larger operators might when they close. Nothing replaces them. The loss is permanent. Greg and James at the Swan at Nibley have been hit additionally by National Highways closing a road for three years.

They're looking forward to trade improving from this weekend when the closure ends. But they say that a cut, in fact, for hospitality would make a big difference to them and to all pubs in our area. The employer, National Insurance Rises, have forced publicans to make brutal choices about staffing. The people hit hardest are young people looking for their first job, the kind of formative, confidence building experience that hospitality provides?Previously, pubs were able to employ 10 to 15 young people working a few hours a week.

Now they struggle to employ three. That's a dozen NEETs for every pub lost in more than one way.
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15:23
None Portrait Speaker 19
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It's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Miss Hobhouse. And a big thank you to the member for Meriden and Solihull East for proposing this valuable debate. Rural pubs and breweries across the country are suffering under excessive tax burden that is stifling investment and employment opportunities. Melksham and Devizes is home to Wadworth, a fantastic local company which had been brewing beer in Devizes since 1875. In a recent meeting with Toby Wadsworth's, managing director, the severity of the financial situation facing the hospitality industry was made clear.

The reduction of the threshold to employers National insurance contributions will cost £750,000 a year across the business, which includes 200. Sorry. 129 tenanted pubs. Yesterday, my team spoke to the landlady of one such pub, Sarah of the Three Magpies in Seend, who told us that because of the increase in the minimum wage, rising National Insurance contributions and higher training costs, she had to cut back on the number of local youngsters the pub employs during the busy summer season. To put this in perspective, last year there were 20 members of staff at the Three Magpies.

Over the summer. This year there will be just nine. That's 11 young people missing out on an invaluable opportunity to gain the skills, knowledge and experience to set them up for future careers. We all saw the Melbourne Review's stark warning that 1 in 6 young people could be classed as Neet within five years of no action is taken. We urgently need to review the impact, the burden on hospitality industries is having on young unemployment and ensure we are not taxing future generations out of employment opportunities.

In addition to these National Insurance challenges, UK alcohol duties are the second highest in Europe, pushing up prices for consumers and reducing profit margins for landlords. The Treasury's current trajectory will suffocate Britain's proud pub culture, with more choosing to purchase alcohol from the supermarket and drink it at home. And this poses increased health risks because at home consumption lacks the natural boundaries of a pub setting. In a time when the cost of utilities has skyrocketed. The government should surely be doing far more to support the UK hospitality industry, not adding to its woes.

Both Toby and Sarah told us that one of the simplest ways to support our pubs would be a VAT reduction for the industry. This would free up capital to either invest in new staff or in the business itself. Similarly, duty on alcohol should be reviewed with the duty paid on a UK pint amounting to ten times that paid in Germany. We have to recognise the important role rural pubs play. Socially. They are the beating heart of villages and help to regulate consumption.

Keeping evenings merry. Economically, they can be engines of growth for rural communities, providing the springboard into employment for many young people and investing in the local area. It's time the Treasury recognised this fact and significantly increased its offering of support to ensure we can all continue to enjoy a pint down the local.
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None Portrait Speaker 20
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Thank you, Mr. Hobhouse, and it's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. And I'd like to thank the member for Meriden and Solihull for securing this important debate. And I'd like to thank all my colleagues who gave such excellent speeches and setting out, yes, how much they love their pubs, but also the struggles that these pubs are facing. And I think that's the really important thing. And I don't really want to start now by talking about how much those pubs matter to our communities or and I'm not going to talk about how much fun I've had in those pubs over the years, because I think the biggest thing that we really have to focus on is a big screaming problem.

And I think the more seriously we take that warm words only go so far. Right now, we have a huge problem that is and it's hitting us every day. And it's hitting these pubs every day, and we've got to do something about it. So I'm just going to set out how how big a problem that is. So in the first half of last year, more than 200 pubs closed in six months. That's eight a week and a year on, things are even worse.

The British Beer and Pub Association has said that 161 pubs closed in the first three months of this year alone in England, Scotland and Wales. That's about 2400 jobs. Those in rural and coastal constituencies have been among the hardest hit and, according to hospitality, UK running costs for pubs have risen by an estimated 43% since 2019, so one third of hospitality businesses are operating at a loss. 6 in 10 have cut jobs and 63% have reduced staff hours. That's bad. As anyone knows, pubs are much more expensive than they used to be and that that is hurting customers as fewer people can afford an evening out.

When a plate of fish and chips costs £15 is hardly surprising. And that's obviously not because pubs are raking it in. Sadly, quite the opposite is true. Pubs are facing many of the same pressures, which are hammering small local businesses across the board, spiralling food prices, high rents, sharp business rate increases, soaring energy bills, increased employer national Insurance contributions and rising wages. And as an entrepreneur who spent 24 years building a business, this overall situation scares the daylights out of me, and I don't.

I'm not envious of them being in that position, and I'm very grateful for Nick at the Old Crown in Farringdon and Tom, Tom and Mike, who sat me down at the Three Horseshoes in Witney and just talked through just how tough it is to run these businesses. And I'm the minister smiling at me because he is a Witney boy, so he understands and has spent. Well, there you are. It's a wonderful pub. And we need to keep it open. And this is all doubly tough for rural pubs.

So city pubs have much larger catchment catchments of potential customers within walking distance. They are not car dependent, which kind of matters with drink driving are likely relying on oil, LPG or electric heating rather than the gas grid, and have a small labour pool from which to hire. And on top of all these hurdles, they are much more significant to their communities in the countryside as as they're typically the only pub in the village and the key hub of village life. There are so many members have pointed out.

And in West Oxfordshire and the Vale of White Horse, we fought really hard to enforce pubs as assets of community value so that everyone understands that they can't make a quick buck from buying a pub, converting it into a house and selling it. The cost to the community is far too great, but by being by being a community asset alone that does not pay the bills, we've got to make these survivable businesses. So the changes announced in last year's autumn budget, the business rates revaluation, the removal of the reductions which dated from the Covid pandemic, led to extreme distress for publicans.

While I recognise that the government has subsequently acknowledged the crisis facing Britain's pubs, the practical support they announced at the start of this year, including the 15% cut to pubs business rates bills from April and a two year real terms freeze was only a partial U-turn, which will still leave many pubs facing a business. Rates increase on top of the other cost pressures I've already listed, I. Certainly.
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None Portrait Speaker 21
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The European Union.
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None Portrait Speaker 21
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Thank you very much, Miss Hobhouse, and I'm grateful to my hon. Friend the member for Meriden and Solihull East for bringing forward this timely and important debate, and I'll certainly be taking up on that pub crawl offer in the recess. I think it's fitting that this debate takes place on the day of the British Beer and Pub Association annual reception, where we'll have the opportunity to speak directly to people in the sector. And, of course, the small matter of the England game later on.

And the Bbpa has set out the challenges here with. For every £3 spent in a pub, £1 of that goes straight to the Exchequer and rural pubs. As honourable members have set out, are very much at the heart of our rural villages as community hubs, gathering places, playing an important role in charity. As my hon. Friend for South Southwest Hertfordshire set out clearly, and that's certainly the case in my constituency of North west Norfolk, with over 5000 jobs supported through pubs and hospitality sector.

But sadly, thanks to the choices of the Chancellor, those rural pubs are facing ever growing pressures. And when there are economic headwinds, some out of control of the government, obviously the government should where it has the ability to act, be acting to support our pubs. That's what the previous government did when we introduced our new strength based duty system, we included two new reliefs the draft beer duty, which my hon. Friend campaigned avidly for, as well as small producer relief, but our support went further.

We froze alcohol duty rates in 2023 and we extended that in 2024. We also provided the pub and hospitality rate relief of 75%, that was a lifeline for thousands of rural pubs that would otherwise face higher bills than they could not meet. And that record stands in stark contrast to this government. Since the Chancellor's first budget in 2024, the government has has added layer upon layer of costs onto a sector that operates on fine margins, where a single bad month could put a rural pub out of business.

On business rates. One of the Chancellor's first decisions was to halve that 75% relief, increasing the average Pubs Business Rates bill from 4000 to £9500. And with the removal of the 40% relief came the revaluation. Some pubs are now seeing their rateable value double or triple, with the bbpa warning that 5000 smallest pubs are now facing business rates for the first time. And what was the government's response?A partial U-turn, a 15% relief after the significant backlash that the government faced.

But only 6% of hospitality and leisure businesses will benefit from that, and even then the average pub will see their rates increase by £5,300 more under Labour, our commitment is different. The conservatives would scrap business rates entirely for pubs up to 110 zero zero £0 cap, with 250,000 businesses overall would benefit. Our cheap energy plan would deliver cheaper costs to rural pubs in particular, and we would not proceed with the regulatory costs included in the unemployment bill, which the government seems so keen on. Does the Minister really believe that a 15% reduction on a hike is sufficient to help these rural pubs?Sadly, the.

Business rates are only the start. The government also cut the employer threshold to National Insurance threshold to £5,000 and hiked the rate to 15% and I know from conversations with landlords and small rural pubs employing 4 or 5 people, that that extra cost is not a rounding error. It means fewer people employed in those pubs. Then in February, alcohol duty was increased by RPI, a £400 cost to the sector passed on to consumers, one that the chief executive for UK hospitality said would be the final straw for some pubs.

And then there's extended producer responsibility. The Bbpa again has warned that the pub sector will have to face a hit of about £50 million because glass bottles sold in venues will be considered as household waste, even though pubs already pay to have their waste commercially recycled. What is the minister's response to this double charging and rules that do not reflect how glass bottles in pubs are collected by the vast majority of premises?These additional costs, taken together and it's the cumulative impact which my hon.

Friend the right hon. Friend for Salisbury referred to. That matters in rural communities feel pub closures differently. A pub closing in a city can be replaced by one around the corner in a Norfolk village. When a pub closes, it can be lost forever, and I'm grateful that the rose and crown in Harpley, which closed, has been reopened. But that is a positive story where there are other, less positive ones. 161 pubs closed in the first quarter of this year, a 26% increase on the year before, and we are now on track for 500 pubs to close in the rest of this year, and a survey of 20,000 hospitality businesses.

The people taking the risk, the people employing people tells a story. 64% plan to cut jobs, 42% will reduce their trading hours. UK hospitality and the Bbpa said it together hospitality tax burden is suffocating the sector. More lost jobs, less investment and business closures. And who's paying the heaviest price?Which young people?Youth unemployment is now at 16%. For generations. A job at the local was their first job, the first foot on the ladder.

And as conservatives, we want to see young people who are out of work given those opportunities, not rejoining the single market and importing people to come and take those jobs. And the government is kicking that ladder away. National insurance hikes, business rates, hikes, duty rises, EPR fees above inflation, wage rises, potentially lowering the drink drive limit, particularly affecting those rural pubs. I could go on with this buckaroo impact. They are presiding over the accelerated loss of a British institution felt particularly acutely in our rural communities.

So, miss House, I urge the Minister as a first step to join the all party beer group. He will get one of these very fine ties. If he does so, he'll also hear these concerns, hear how rising costs mean that a third of venues are running at a loss here, how the government needs to change course. When we were in government, we prove that targeted support works. So rather than load on more costs, government should be supporting pubs with the decisive fiscal relief that conservatives have committed to.
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None Portrait Speaker 14
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Thank you, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure to speak today under your Chairship, which has some of the most impressive chairship I've seen in in this in this in this room with a managing to keep this unruly lot to time. Um, and I am thankful to the honourable member, the member for Meriden and Solihull East for securing this debate and his contribution on the importance of rural pubs. I represent a an urban seat here in in in London. It's a midday on the clock in London, but it has a plentiful supply of greenbelt and I actually have 12 farms in my constituency, um even though it's within Greater London.

So I have some um some understanding of the situation for rural communities. And I also grew up in the member for Witney's constituency, as was mentioned earlier, spend, spend every Christmas Eve doing carols at the three horseshoes. So the owners have to look out for me this year. It's a fantastic pub and um, we want to make sure that pubs like that and pubs in all the constituencies mentioned today have the support that they need. I will briefly thank the member for Redditch for mentioning the pubs in his constituency, including the Golden Cross, which gives me the opportunity to say that I hope that England can get a golden cross in this evening and we can score some goals.

Thank you one and all. Um, I would like to thank all members for their contributions and for and for sharing the stories of the businesses in their constituency. So many pubs are so important to so many communities, particularly rural communities. The government does have rural rates relief for those pubs that are the only pub in villages with populations of 3000 or less, and there are a couple of thousand of businesses across the country who do make use of the Rural Rates Relief Scheme. That includes shops as well, and I would encourage all members, um, in the chamber to make sure that their local businesses are aware of the Rural Rates Relief scheme, which was in place under the previous government.

Two but I know is welcome by those that use it. Um I'll turn. To each of the different sort of topics that have been mentioned by a range of measures in turn. First of all, on business rates, we are reforming the system and we have implemented, as has been discussed a number of times in this place, permanently lower multipliers within the system for eligible retail, hospitality and leisure properties such as pubs. This is funded by a high value multiplier on the 1% of the most expensive properties, including many large distribution warehouses used by online giants, and that change in the system will mean that the tax rate paid by the smallest businesses on the high street and the and will have a wedge of a third compared to the tax rate paid by the online giants.

And that's a permanent change in the system, not a temporary relief that can sometimes jump up, jump up and down. And those changes are worth nearly £1 billion a year for the three quarters of a million retail, hospitality and leisure businesses that are the lifeblood of our high streets. Um, members, particularly on the in the Liberal Democrat corner of the room, have talked about the need for significant change to the way that pubs are valued, I would say, and I did mention earlier that this government is the first government in a very long time to commission an independent review of the way in which pubs and hotels are valued for business rates purposes.

We heard in the weeks after the budget very clearly from businesses that they had concerns, their concerns about the opaqueness of the methodology. Some pubs talking about that feeling, which has been expressed today of running to stand still when it comes to business rates, their turnover goes up, but then their business rates bill goes up too. We've been clear that we won't separate, um, pubs out entirely from the fact that within the business rates system, as set out in law, passed in the 1980s, it's right for business rates to reflect the rent.

But the question is how can we best value that and how can we best communicate it?Um, as a valuation office to individual ratepayers. And of course, I'll give way on that point.
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None Portrait Speaker 8
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Minister.
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None Portrait Speaker 14
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Minister I. I thank the honourable member for raising this issue. This is an issue that Republicans in my constituency have raised with me to. As a constituency MP. And of course, there are benefits to having a link with a major supplier, and I can understand why many publicans do choose that route. But it is clear, too, that there are significant challenges. I know that this is something that DBT has looked at in the past, and I'm sure there are conversations ongoing with the relevant minister as to what reforms potentially, uh, could be made.

It isn't it isn't my policy brief. So I don't want to speak too far out of turn on it, but I totally understand the issue and I will raise it personally with the relevant minister. And I have in the past, I'll say on the record, after after being asked to by my constituents, um, on a related point, uh, an honourable member also raised the issue of guest beers and access to, uh, the. Uh. To the bar for guest beers in tied pubs.

Um, I have now met with the parties involved in the beer market access review to hear their evidence directly, and they are giving due consideration at the moment to all of the evidence, along with input from competition policy experts. So this is something that is under active review at the moment by the government. And we are committed, the government is committed to making sure that we can have a diverse and competitive beer market. And on a personal level, I do hope that this is something that the government can look really closely at so we can improve competition and choice.

But as I say, being led by the relevant DBT Minister, um, as has been mentioned, in January this year, we went further to support pubs when it comes to business rates, with a further 15% of their business rates bills and then a real terms freeze in business rates for pubs in the next two years of this revaluation period. This support is worth £1,650 for the average pub this year. It means three quarters of pubs are seeing their bills either fall or stay flat this year. And as a sector, pubs will pay 8% less in business rates in 2029 than before the revaluation took effect.

Moving on from business rates, the government recognises that pubs do often serve, and particularly in rural communities, as crucial community assets. As has been mentioned by the member who brought the debate and also many others, they support local economies, local communities. They provide spaces for gatherings to support those in need and foster a great sense of local pride. Of course, I'm happy to give way after that gesture, the.
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None Portrait Speaker 16
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Very much adding.
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And please watch.
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None Portrait Speaker 14
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Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, as I say, we continue to, um, look at the impact of tax policies across sectors. And the Chancellor and I will keep tax policy under review in the run up to the budget later this year. Let me just make a couple more points before wrapping up with sufficient time. Um, for the member to conclude, we also want to make sure we cut the stifling red tape that is holding our pubs across the country. Back at the budget, we announced the first iteration of the national Licensing Policy framework.

It doesn't sound very exciting, but it is very interesting. It's something I've been pushing colleagues across government on so that we can provide more clarity in our licensing framework to enable pubs who want to open in certain ways or do certain things, to be able to have the flexibility to do so, to support their growth and to support wider economic growth. With the World Cup game coming tonight, pubs across England and Wales can benefit from extensions to licensing hours and letting pubs stay open for later. For home nation games in the knockout stages.

And it's encouraging that Scotland did well the other day. Hopefully both teams will make it through to the knockout stages. We're also backing Pavement Pints with a commitment to make it easier for pubs to serve food and drink outside by cutting unnecessary bureaucracy. At present, many businesses are forced to reapply repeatedly for pavement licences in order to continue serving customers outdoors, and that process can cost up to £350 each time, creating an avoidable, costly burden for businesses and the reforms we have announced, I should hope, will bring that to an end.

Um, finally, in January, the Chancellor also announced a 10 million package of funding for hospitality support over three years, up from 1.5 million for one year, announced last April. Madam chair, to conclude, we understand, of course, the need to make sure we do all we can to support pubs and our hospitality sector, particularly in vital rural communities, and I thank members for their contributions in this debate today, which I will take back with me to the Treasury in the weeks and months I should hope to come.
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I have roll.
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Ups.
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La la
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I will.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Well, I thank my honourable friend for his intervention and I do indeed agree on the importance of the mental health investment standard as one of the measures for securing good mental health support and making it equal with physical health. So as I was saying, uh, parity of esteem means regarding mental health with the same respect, funding and clinical focus as physical conditions. And we're here today to debate just that, a principle that has been discussed in this place for over a decade, yet remains unfulfilled. Now.

We've made great strides in mental health. Uh, the Mental Health Act, investment in mental health support teams for schools rolled out again this week, and additional mental health workers. Now it's time to deliver on our commitment. In our manifesto to give mental health the same attention and focus as physical health. We need to look at the current situation on waiting lists for mental health support. And before I look at figures, I want to remind all of us that every single patient waiting to access mental health support is in urgent need of support, just as those on physical waiting lists are.

And sadly, all too often as they wait, people see their condition worsen and this can lead to extreme consequences and further. More physical illnesses frequently cause in themselves profound psychological distress. Yet our services treat the physical and the mental in isolation. I know from my experiences working with people who have rare conditions, the impact that this can have. Most recent figures show that almost 1.87 million adults and over 576,000 children and young people currently hold open referrals for mental health services.

If these were patients waiting for hip replacements or cardiac care, it would dominate the national discourse. NHS England has developed waiting list targets for mental health patients after referral, the longest being four weeks after referral for access to community based services for non-urgent mental health care. But these developed standards have never been adopted. Research shows that there are 12 times more patients waiting longer than 18 months for mental health treatment, compared to those with physical conditions. The government has rightly instructed the NHS to drive down waiting times for elective physical health care, but so far, mental health services have been excluded from this ambition and the situation.

For our children and young people, Miss Hobhouse is particularly concerning. Barnardo's say that 1 in 5 children now has a probable mental disorder, which is double the rate that we saw in 2017. Demand has increased hugely, yet around 28% of referred children are still waiting for help, with nearly 4000 children facing unthinkable waits of over two years for treatments. Now we see the human cost of these delays in the lives of people like Amy, a young woman diagnosed with complex PTSD who has spent over a decade isolated at home, yet has seen a psychiatrist only once in ten years.

We also see it in the harrowing accounts collected by Rethink Mental Illness. One patient told rethink that their psychosis was full on and an attempted suicide was the only thing that got them help. That's an unacceptable threshold for care and from suicide prevention, charity Body and Soul, with whom I've worked, I have more experiences. One young person they supported spent almost a year on an NHS waiting list for cognitive behavioural therapy. Just as they neared the top of that list, their health deteriorated into a severe crisis and they attended A and E battling suicidal thoughts.

Instead of receiving urgent intervention, they were informed that their crisis made them too severe for the therapy. They'd waited so long to access. They were removed from the waiting list entirely, and with nowhere else to turn, attempted to end their own life. And as body and soul rightly highlight, no patient with a life threatening physical condition would be told they are too ill to qualify for treatment. Unlike in this case. Now, mental health charity mind is calling for the development of open access mental health support pathways, ensuring that people can seek out help early and directly without facing unnecessary referral barriers or rigid clinical thresholds.

When we fail to provide this accessible care, the results can be fatal. People living with severe mental illness currently face a 15 to 20 year premature mortality gap compared to the rest of the population, closing that gap by treating mental health with the same urgency as physical health, must be the baseline of our approach. Rethink Mental Health recently found that 83% of people said their mental health deteriorated while waiting for support, and nearly a third of those whose health worsened attempted suicide. Families are making impossible choices, with some parents reporting that they are skipping meals to pay for private therapy for their children because they can't get the help that they need.

Now, this crisis in mental health impacts on our government's core mission as well to kick start economic growth, we are seeing a rise in economic inactivity driven by long term sickness and poor mental health is a primary factor. The Mental Health Foundation estimates the economic and social costs of mental health problems reaches £118 billion a year. These figures have not arisen overnight either. The previous conservative government has much to answer for within this crisis. We need to make sure that we maintain the emphasis on mental health.

The Department for Health and Social Care last year reported that the proportion of NHS funding spent on mental health is expected to decline over the next two years. We need to look again at this, Miss Hobhouse. I will give way.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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I know.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Well, I absolutely agree with my honourable friend on that. And that's why I'm so pleased to welcome the mental health in schools, uh, teams that we've set up. And we need to look very much at preventative measures so that we don't keep getting into this position. So that's something that I certainly do recognise and agree with. Um, so we know that when people are left to languish on waiting lists, their ability to participate in the workforce collapses. But we must stop waiting for people to hit rock bottom before we step in.

We have to look, as we've said, at preventative measures as well, when 1 in 3 young people now must wait over 18 months for treatment after referral, it's simply not good enough. I welcome the changes the government has implemented and the extra investment for mental health support in schools, and its expansion to 100% of schools by 2030. So I have some very specific asks of the minister. Uh, supported by mental health charities working together. Firstly, will the minister ensure that reducing waiting times for non-urgent community mental health care is included as a specific priority in NHS planning guidance, sending a clear message to local systems that this must be tackled alongside elective physical care.

Secondly, mind, the mental health charity, has stated that reducing mental health waiting times must be treated as a core test of parity of esteem and indeed, rethink has made that same point. Will the Minister commit to fully rolling out the access and waiting time standards consulted on by NHS England in 2021, ensuring that emergency mental health care is provided within one hour, urgent care within four hours, and community care within four weeks. Third, to help us meet our shared ambitions for parity of esteem. Can the Minister outline how we will work together to reverse the projected decline in the proportion of NHS funding spent on mental health over the next two years, and will the government commit to protecting the mental health investment standard until a long term funding alternative plan is firmly in place?Finally, the government has outlined an ambitious shift towards neighbourhood health services.

How will the department ensure that community mental health is a central component of this rollout, so that patients can access multidisciplinary support before they reach a crisis point?Miss Hobhouse, We have a historic opportunity to build a national health service that treats the mind and the body with equal respect. I look forward to the minister's response on how we will finally deliver true parity of esteem between physical and mental health services. Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Thank you, Miss Hobhouse, and it's a pleasure to serve under your Chairship, and I am very grateful to my hon. Friend the member for Blaydon and Concert for securing this important debate and for her long standing commitment to improving mental health services and her phenomenal work that she has done in her role as chair of the Appg Suicide and Self-harm Prevention. I am also grateful to all honourable members who have contributed today and shared experiences from their constituencies, and I was also sorry to hear of John's death.

Mental suicide is a huge concern. I know many of us, me included, have personal stories that we can share, and there is much more that we need to do in that space. Miss Hobhouse, this debate speaks to the heart of what a modern health and care system should be. For too long, mental health has not received the same attention, priority or esteem as physical health. This has had profound consequences for individuals, families and communities across the country. It also has significant economic impacts, as we heard from my hon.

Friend with an estimated 1.2 6,000,016 to 64 year olds economically inactive due to mental health in 2425, now, the NHS act 2006 states that when we talk about health, that does include mental health and this government is committed to giving mental health the same attention and focus as physical health and ensuring that people can access timely, high quality support, regardless of whether they are experiencing a mental or physical health condition. As my hon. Friend said, parity of esteem means recognising that mental and physical health are inseparable, and far too often services have have treated them as distinct issues when in reality they are completely connected.

And of course, many people experience mental and physical health conditions at the same time with a cause and effect relationship that goes both ways. We know that poor mental health can increase the risk of developing physical health problems while living with a long term physical condition can have a significant impact on a person's mental wellbeing, and people living with severe mental illness experience some of the poorest physical health outcomes in our society and on average die 15 to 20 years earlier than the general population. That is why we are committed to improving the way services respond to people with co-occurring mental and physical health needs.

Care must be coordinated around the individual rather than organised around organizational boundaries, ensuring that people receive holistic support that addresses all aspects of their health and wellbeing. NHS England has developed the Mental Health Personalised Care Framework, which sets out how services should assess and manage people's care in partnership with them and in collaboration with all relevant teams. And this framework places particular emphasis on joined up care, safety and risk management, and it has been tested with local systems and will be published shortly. And I know that that will answer some of her questions, but not all.

And I shall try and address those points as I go through. Um, my, my speech. Um yes of course chambers.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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I thank the honourable member for mentioning the wraparound care in Winchester. Cab. It's initiatives like that that are in the voluntary sector or the charity sector that we do need. The local health ecosystem to be partnering with, acknowledging the impact that they're made and therefore funding and supporting these types of initiatives. You cannot underestimate the level of support that basic things, what some may think are basic, like debt, the impact on someone's mental health that that can have. And I am sure that the, um, you know, that the officials will want to meet with him and others to, to, uh, you know, look at actually what the kind of landscape looks like across the country because there are some fantastic initiatives that we do need to recognise and we do need to partner and support.

Um, the government is taking action to elevate the status of mental health for 2627 NHS mental health spending is forecast to increase to a record 16.1 billion, representing a real terms increase of around 140 million compared with the previous year. Alongside this, the mental health investment standard remains in place. Integrated care boards are required to protect mental health spending in real terms over the next three years, ensuring that mental health continues to receive the investment needed to improve services and outcomes. However, investment alone is of course not enough and we must transform how care is delivered.

And that is why the ten year health plan sets out our vision for a neighbourhood health service, something my hon. Friend mentioned. This is about bringing care closer to people's homes and communities, creating genuinely patient centred services and moving away from what we've seen is a very fragmented system that often leaves people navigating multiple services without the support they need. And I hope the Icbs are engaging honourable members from all sides of the House to feed into what that neighbourhood health centre model will actually look like.

What are the unmet needs and the services gaps in their own constituencies and regions?
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Minister?
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I thank my honourable friend for his intervention. He's absolutely right. This is a great pilot and there is some real huge successes. And of course, government must learn, um, from, you know, the learnings and the impact that these hubs will have. And of course, we want to roll this out. That's why we're piloting six community based health centres across England in Tower Hamlets, Lewisham, Whitehaven, York, Sheffield and Birmingham. And these centres provide round the clock open access, treatment and support for adults with severe mental health needs and work closely with primary care and community services to provide joined up care.

I think all of us across this House will recognise that it is not appropriate for someone who is facing crisis or mental health to be sitting in A and E, which just exacerbates the, you know, their condition and situation. And it's pilots like these, um, that, that show actually a different model can work. And my noble friend Baroness Merrin visited the East Birmingham community based mental health centre in May, where she met staff and service users to hear directly about the impact of the service. And the visit demonstrated the important role that community based mental health support can play in providing earlier intervention, improving experiences of care and helping people access support before reaching crisis point.

I know that my hon. Friend is particularly interested in how these reforms will benefit people in Bladen and consent, and whilst her constituency is not currently home to one of the six core or 16 associated community based mental health pilot sites, there is already a range of community based support available locally. Gateshead Connects Hubs are providing accessible community drop in spaces that offer mental health and wellbeing support, alongside practical advice on issues such as housing and finances, and residents can also access NHS talking therapies through services based at Blaydon Primary Care Center, while community mental health support networks operating across County Durham provide peer led groups and safe spaces for people living in and around consent.

These local services reflect the wider direction of travel in our ten year health plan, bringing support closer to people's homes, strengthening community based provision and ensuring that people can access help earlier before their needs escalate into crisis. Significant progress has been made in building a stronger crisis care pathway. This includes the NHS 111 mental health option, the expansion, the expansion of crisis cafes that we hear from so many members, sanctuaries and crisis houses and the rollout of crisis tech services across England. We have also completed delivery of the Mental Health Response Vehicle programme, with 88 vehicles now operating across local systems.

And in addition, there is now full national coverage of 24 over seven on mental health teams in acute hospitals. And we are also investing up to 120 million to expand the number of mental health emergency departments to 85 sites. The government has also delivered on its commitment to modernise the legal framework that underpins mental health care. The Mental Health Act 2025 brings mental health legislation into the 21st century and ensures that people receiving treatment have greater choice, autonomy and involvement in decisions about their care.

My hon. Friend mentioned the parity of esteem must extend to children and young people. We heard from many hon. Friends of cases of children facing crisis, including my hon.
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None Portrait Speaker 23
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I absolutely agree, and this is a responsibility of the Icbs and the Icbs have been informed that they must make sure that waiting lists are coming down. We know we need to go further and we are developing a new cross-government mental health strategy for England, covering all ages, which will be published later this year. The department is keen to hear views of members across this House, and I would be happy to share details with any honourable member in how they can feed in. The strategy seeks to transform mental health support by setting out a plan to respond earlier and reduce waiting times, and help people to remain active.

Importantly, it will look beyond the NHS recognising the critical role of schools, employers, local government and the voluntary and community sector. Because achieving parity of esteem is not solely the responsibility of the NHS. Today's debate has highlighted both the progress that has been made and the challenges that remain, and we are under no illusion about the scale of the task. But this government is committed to building a health and care system where mental health is treated with the same seriousness, urgency and ambition as physical health.

Parity of esteem is not an aspiration, it is a necessity. And through sustained investment, service reform and a renewed focus on prevention and early prevention, we are determined to make it a reality. I once again thank my hon. Friend. I have a huge amount of respect and regard for her, not only for securing this debate, but all of the work she continues to do, and I know she will continue to hold us to account. And for all members for their thoughtful contributions.

Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 24
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 11
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House, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I would like to declare an interest free start as the chair of the all party parliamentary group for customer service. I am proud to stand here today. Miss Hobhouse, and speak on this issue as a co-operative Member of Parliament. For many years, the Co-operative Party has been at the forefront of tackling abuse against retail workers. They have worked closely on this issue with Usdaw, and I'm pleased to see a representative of Usdaw in the public gallery.

They were supposed to be in the public gallery but clearly have made it. The sector is encumbered by appalling levels of aggression, harassment and violence. The British Retail Consortium estimates that 1600 such incidents take place across the UK every day. 118 of these, which will involve physical violence, and 36 a weapon. Many employees have had an experience that made them fear for their lives. These experiences range from being followed home at night to be knocked unconscious by a shopping basket.

Those facing such violence are ordinary, hard working people, often with families they supporting at home. They deserve kindness, respect and the guarantee of returning home safe from work. In light of the overwhelming pressure, the government have begun taking steps to address this issue. The response has been fronted by the introduction of a standalone offence for assault in retail workers, established by the 2026 Crime and Policing Act. Those found guilty of the offence can be sent to prison for up to six years.

Six months, receive an unlimited fine and barred from entering certain shops. Alongside this measure, the government is rolling out facial recognition technology in public spaces and using tags to carefully track the movements of serial offenders. These policies have been warmly welcomed by campaigners who believe they will curb the rise in violence and bring attention to retail crime. The voices of of of our 3 million retail workers are finally being heard after too many years of being ignored. However, we cannot expect these voices to fall silent at any time soon.

They now call on the government to ensure that the measures introduced by the Crime and Policing Act are successful. I therefore ask the Minister to explain how success is going to be measured, what criteria criteria will the Department be using to elevate, evaluate the policy and determine whether it adequately protects retail workers?I am also keen to hear how the minister interprets the BRICs latest findings. Which record a 20% decline in incidence of retail violence and abuse in the past year. To what extent do they believe that government policies contribute to this decline, or do they believe that this has come about because of heavy investment by retailers, improve staff training and closer collaboration with enforcement officials?In addition, the police must make effective use of the standalone offence in order to reprimand criminals and deter would be perpetuators.

This will require a stronger police presence on High street and retail parks and in shopping centres, as well as the continuing prioritisation of retail crime. I would be grateful if the minister could explain how they support the police. The police forces across the country in achieving this, and what challenges may be posed as the policing framework evolves in the next two years. The honourable member for.
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None Portrait Speaker 11
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Absolutely. We need more funding for police. Police on the beat as well. I think it's but it's vitally important, I think, that we treat these cases seriously. There is a see, as I said, there's a serious underlying threat of violence if they are approached. I think, um the staff, the shop workers or retail workers, when they do call the police need to have the assurance that the police will come out, take it serious and any threat that might come with that as well.

And I particularly understand the threat of the rural areas, because there may be a situation where a shop owner decides to close down, and therefore that is the end of the shop, as we know, in rural areas, that could be the last shop for miles, miles around. So I think it's imperative that we do something about, particularly in those rural areas as well. I would also ask the minister to meet representatives from Usdaw to discuss. The government can empower workers to speak out, as have spoken and report instances of abuse.

I want the measures introduced by the government to successfully tackle retail crime. They have the potential not only to transform the lives of shop workers, but every person in the customer facing role. I say this because should the government's legislation be successful, it must be implemented across all sectors. Through my role as chair of the all party parliamentary Group for customer service, I've worked closely with the Institute of Customer Service through their service With Respect campaign. The team have tirelessly campaigned against the abuse of all front line workers.

This encompasses.
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None Portrait Speaker 11
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I think he's absolutely right. I do think we need a coordinated response across Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland. You know, at the end of the day, this abuse doesn't stop at the border. It doesn't happen because somebody's Scottish, somebody's English. It happens everywhere. And we should have a coordinated response between the four governments of the United Kingdom to address this. And he's absolutely right to bring that up. So the campaign that the service respect has been calling for encompasses a 60% of the UK workforce, or around 80 million people.

Of those, 42% say they've experienced abuse from customers in 2025, up from 36% the previous year. Although these figures are alarming, they do not come as a shock to me. My first job was in a bookmakers and as a result, my first experience of a customer facing role was marred by violence and constant abuse. I distinctly remember the undercurrent of aggression that ran through every shop that I worked in. This only intensified when I worked alone, and low level verbal and physical harassment soon became the norm.

The norm is not isolated to betting shops in South Wales. Across the UK, 90% of staff have witnessed violence or threats of violence by at least one customer, alongside this, 75% have been told that they or their colleagues would be assaulted after leaving work. Abuse is not contained. The workplace. Before becoming an MP, I also for my sins worked in a bank. Another sector which employees would routinely face abuse. They work directly with customers. Finances often assist them in times of stress and vulnerability.

This can heighten tensions, increase the likelihood of meetings with harassment, intimidation and threats of violence. Indeed, data collected from the UK finance members suggested that 10,503 incidents of abuse were directed at bank and building society staff in 2024. This is nearly double the previous year. Risks risks encountered by customer facing banking staff are often overlooked in debates such as this, given the sector's important role at the heart of our communities. I would welcome an explanation from ministers why the amendments sought by UK finance to the Crime and Policing Bill was not taken forward by the government.

This amendment would have extended the offence of assaulting a retail worker to the banking sector. A timely development amid the growing number of protests organised against banking staff. Finally, I cannot ignore the scourge of harassment faced by public transport workers. In a survey of over 600 RMT members, nearly two thirds experienced customer violence in the past year. Of those, 70% agreed that boosts on public transport increased on the year prior. To me, this is personal. Both my mother and my my.

My stepfather worked on the valleys lines and a boost was sadly part of their daily lives. In light of the Crime and Policing Act, RMT are campaigning with renewed vigour to introduce stronger legal protections for their members at a station, at transport work and a retail worker could be working closely in proximity to each other. Nevertheless, if both are assaulted, they would be eligible for different levels of legal protection. This disparity is unacceptable. In addition, the Scottish Government has now pledged to create a standalone offence for abuse against public transport workers.

When this comes into force, those working on a service in Scotland will be afforded significantly stronger protections than those assaulted south of the border, even on the same train service. Therefore, I hope the Minister will also meet with the RMT to discuss how this problem can be alleviated if the department requires more evidence before doing so. I urge them to create a cross-party working group composed of transport, transport professionals, the unions and officials from the civil service. So far, I have highlighted the abuse faced by employees in just three sectors, but I could go on to the call centre staff, the hospitality workers, the utility engineers or the caseworkers.

Simply now constituency offices. And yet. And yet we are yet to touch on the impacts of such abuse. The Institute of Customer Service reports that workplace abuse causes a third of employees to consider leaving their jobs, and a quarter take sick leave. When workers begin to disengage in this way, the service they provide suffer. The businesses they work for suffer, and the communities that they serve ultimately suffer. Incidents of abuse can have a deliberate effect on a workplace long after perpetuates have fled, and immediate dangers have passed.

In the most severe cases, staff are left with physical injuries. Insomnia, post-traumatic stress disorder, anxiety or depression. Neither the human nor economic costs can be fully explained, let alone calculated. While sick leave has been priced at 1 billion a year, the cost of replacing those who leave their roles, training new staff and undertaking legal proceedings pushes this figure far, far higher. So I asked the minister.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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Chris Evans.
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None Portrait Speaker 11
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Members should apologise for the intervention like that. He's actually absolutely on on the point there. We forget about the economic the human cost of this. You know this is costing the economy billions of pounds which could be saved if we could just nip this in the bud right now. And I hope the minister will look at that when it comes to winding up. So I ask the Minister for the Department deems the stand on offence for assault and retail workers successful.

Will they extend the provision to encompass all other customer facing roles?And if an answer can be given, will she set out a timetable for review process?We are now on the brink of a real, tangible change. Vital protections for people in custody roles are within reach. This is thanks to the efforts of the Co-operative Party, as though British Retail Consortium, RMT and Institute of Customer Service, among others. Extending the standalone offence for assault and retail workers to all sectors would be transformative, vastly improving the lives of millions across the country.

But it will only be achieved if this Labour government continues to stick by the side of the workers and trade unions. These groups are the backbone of our economy and at the heart of our communities. They must be protected with the full force of law, and I'm pleased, and I'm looking forward to the minister's response. I know she is level headed. I know she will come up with some good ideas, and I will thank her for listening today. Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 26
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Hear, hear.
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None Portrait Speaker 10
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Thank you, Madam Chair. Nobody asks a question better than you do. Um, can I say what a pleasure it is to speak on the your church?Uh, and a big thank you to the honourable gentleman for carefully, as he so often does, with passion, with belief, with conviction tells us the stories of the issue. And he brought to our attention with that same ability and capability today. And we thank him for that. And it's always a pleasure to come along and support him.

And I probably always do, simply because he brings issues that I think are pertinent to me. And I will explain some of those in in relation to my own constituency. When we talk about the rise of retail crime and abuse against customer facing workers in Northern Ireland. I'm always going give a Northern Ireland perspective. That's my duty here on behalf of my constituents in Strangford. We're not talking about isolated incidents. We're talking about a systematic daily onslaught against our high streets.

It's at that level, and unfortunately, I'm sad to say it's at that level. Uh, in my constituency of Strangford in Northern Ireland, as I say, it's a real pleasure to see them again. You're back as well. And and the shadow ministers here again, it's almost like Groundhog Day, only with a different subject. Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We wake up at 6:00 and the alarm goes off. Uh, but anyway, I digress. The latest figures from Retailers Against Crime exposed the terrifying scale of the problem.

Shoplifting in Northern Ireland has surged by a staggering 33% year on year. And let's be clear, this is not petty theft. This is organised, highly organised, aggressive criminal behaviour that has caused retail financial losses to skyrocket by some 45%. But far worse than that than the honourable gentleman who intervened there. The last intervention referred to it in the. It's not just a financial toll, it's a devastating human cost. Those who never thought they would ever be threatened, that their place of work, who probably know everybody in the community and they suddenly find themselves being threatened, traumatised and unable to cope with that because that was never part of the of the job.

Uh, that they envisage that it would be the retail union. Usdaw has revealed a deeply alarming statistic as well. 18% of shop workers in Northern Ireland suffered a direct physical attack over a single 12 month period. That means that nearly 1 in 5 workers went to do their job and ended up being physically assaulted, which is why this debate today is incredibly helpful for on behalf of our constituents, on behalf of those people who want change, want protection from them. Um, I tell a story of a car, Madam Chair, just very quickly of a son, Jimmy, my oldest boy, he was a manager of a of a shop for you and high Street, Newton orange.

Now, he's left that job some five years ago and he's moved on. Uh, but at that time, he was the manager. And one night, um, as so often happened over a period of time and in at that time a guy came in, I presume, probably high on drugs, but with a, with a knife in his hand and says it's an off licence and it's also a shop, it's a very big shop with an off licence at the end of it and threatened them. Now, Jimmy, uh, was right to step back and say, look, you go ahead.

Why would you throw yourself in front of somebody with a knife who perhaps, um, is unsure or unable or aggressive enough to, to, to ignore your pleas, whatever they may be, if it's only for a bottle of whiskey or a gin or a dozen beer. But what a life is never worth anything more than that. Now, on that occasion, uh, CCTV was there. They had it in the shop, so they were able to, to chase up the individuals and the place that they came from.

But the point I'm making, um, the traumatic effect that has on people will differ from person to person, from character to character, from personality to personality. Uh, Jimmy was probably quite able to get over because he's a strong young man. Uh, but somebody else, uh, threatened the person with a knife. Uh, what about the ladies in the shop, for instance?If he hadn't been there as a manager of the store. I often think of that there. How they would have, uh, responded.

So we look back, uh, and those things. Furthermore, some 60% of all violent incidents, threats and verbal terrains and physical. This is one thing, but verbal abuse can be almost as terrifying because the aggression behind that there can almost overtake you as well. They're at their local office. Shop staff are triggered by confronting, confronting these shoplifters. Our retail staff have been forced into the front line. All of a sudden, the let's go and do me six hours, four hours, eight hours in the shop and fill the shelves, speak to the people, look after the customers, but then you get threatened and all of a sudden your job is just not the job that you signed up for.

And they face everything from physical intimidation to terrifying threat of even ammonia, acid, ammonia attacks, bleach attacks, amongst against them as well. But if you look at our official PSNI data, it shows an overall decrease of some two 2.3% in standard police logs. Madam chair, this tells us a dangerous truth, and I think it's one that the honourable gentleman, by the way, and his. Thing, and I think he's right. By the way. It's my perception as well in my constituency.

It proves that there is a massive under-reporting gap. Um, for every verbal attack or physical attack on a, on a shop worker, it may not be reported to the police. And if it is reported to the police, is there a reaction, which is what the honourable gentleman referred to. Shop workers are enduring verbal degradation and threats every single day. They are not reporting it because they feel the system has abandoned them. And if you feel the system is abandoned, then the system has to change.

I conclude with this, Madam Chair. We cannot look at these numbers and do nothing. Our independent shops have been forced to absorb a massive crime tax just to pay for security. I'm old and the oldest person in this chamber, I suspect, by far. I can remember going to the shops, uh, down the road. And there was a security man in the shop. Um, there never was any need to have a security person in the shop.

There's no need for CCTV cameras and there was CTV from my young days. Um, the policeman was always available, by the way. It was never too far away. It was always on the beat. Um um, but things have changed.
16:56
None Portrait Speaker 27
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Will you give way?
16:56
None Portrait Speaker 10
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I'm very happy to.
16:56
16:56
16:57
None Portrait Speaker 6
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Jacob Collier.
16:58
None Portrait Speaker 28
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Thank you, Miss Hobhouse. It's a pleasure to serve with you in the chair. And I'd like to congratulate my honourable friend for carefully for securing this debate. And also the way that he spoke so passionately, laying out the case to the Crime and Policing Act, was a key moment in our journey to a society in which the job that you do does not determine how you are treated at work and retail workers across my constituency are now safer thanks to the actions of this government and the campaigning by the Co-operative Party and Usdaw in particular.

Before I was elected, I went to visit central co-op workers in my constituency in Stretton, Horninglow and Winsol, and I was shocked by what I heard. Pretty much every worker that I spoke to had faced verbal or physical abuse of some kind simply for doing their job. These were proud and hard working people that were simply going out to do a job and provide for their family. Sexism and racism makes women workers and workers of colour even more vulnerable. Probably the most horrific story that I heard when I spoke to those workers was one female colleague that was doused in liquid and threatened with a lighter.

I can't imagine what that would have been like for her in the moment. And then reflecting on it afterwards. But in. A brave spirit. She was back at work within days, and often. As my honourable friend said, the trauma of that abuse goes home with them. But it doesn't just affect them and their mood, but actually their wider family are impacted to that. Abuse is an assault on their very pride of who they are, and often retail workers, particularly those that work in shops, will live local to where they work.

And I heard one case of a female shop worker who was verbally assaulted and then saw the very same person that had committed that abuse. As she was walking home in her uniform. So because of the actions of this Labour government in making assault against retail workers a specific offence, I can say to those people that I met that we have heard you, we have acted. And it must be noted that the law change did not include verbal abuse or wider customer facing roles.

So that's why I congratulate my hon. Friend for bringing this debate and for the points that he's made. Even with this law change. Uh, I cannot. Stand here and pretend that things will change just because the law has changed. We know that. Sadly it won't. The fact that we have to put up signs in shops, in hospitals, on our buses, asking people to be kind, I think shows that as a society, the basic respect that we had for each other has broken down, and I hope we can get back to a place where we restore that.

But this change in the law was a clear statement that assault of retail workers will not be tolerated. And we have repealed that appalling Tory law that meant that those stealing items under £200 were effectively decriminalised.
17:01
None Portrait Speaker 16
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But to get around.
17:01
None Portrait Speaker 28
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That point, I will.
17:01
17:02
None Portrait Speaker 28
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Well, I think my hon. Friend makes a great point, and often I heard about repeat offenders and the same sort of people coming into the shop and workers themselves almost having to protect themselves from individuals that they knew were going to commit a criminal act. And unfortunately, this abuse against customer facing workers happens in every place in society. And I've heard that from workers across different sectors of our economy. And I probably should declare my membership of unison and the GMB union, as I recently met with GMB Swissport members at East Midlands Airport about their airport Workers Against Abuse campaign.

And again, I heard shocking stories from the workers there about physical attacks and verbal abuse that they suffer in terminals, and there is a difference between how people can be policed. Landside versus airside. And because of and because there's lesser protections on the airside, workers are more vulnerable. Travelling abroad is often a very stressful time, as I'm sure that we all know. But there is absolutely no excuse to take this out on the hard working men and women who get us to where we want to be.

And so the government and the airports themselves should listen to the GMB campaign and introduce stricter protections and penalties to protect the dignity of our airport workers. Those working in customer facing roles in my constituency, whether in a pub, in a nursery, driving a bus, deserve to have the dignity at work and the right to do their job without facing abuse. And it's on this place to make sure that we put in place those conditions so that that can happen.
17:03
17:03
None Portrait Speaker 29
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thank you very much, Mrs. Hobhouse. It's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. And can I start by congratulating the member for Caerphilly for his work in securing this debate and for his really excellent opening remarks. Um, abuse against people in customer facing roles is always unacceptable. No one should ever have to face abuse in their place of work. The Liberal Democrats were supportive of the measures included in the recent Crime and Policing Act, which introduced the specific recording of offences of assault against retail workers.

After years of increasing violence and abuse experienced by those working in retail and other frontline work, the introduction of this offence should act as a strong deterrent against abuse and allow data on such abuse to be more reliably recorded. But while there has been an improvement on the legal deterrence front and the collection of data, we need greater enforcement to ensure that offenders are reprimanded for committing acts of abuse. After a decade of cuts to police numbers and resources, people want to return to having a visible police presence in their communities to focus on preventing and solving crime, restoring a permanent police presence on our local high street is the single most effective way to deter rogue operators and to give people confidence to report illicit behaviour.

This Labour government has promised the public 13,000 more police officers, but instead officer numbers have fallen. By March this year, we had 4000 fewer frontline officers in the year before. Not only have we seen a reduction of force numbers over the past 18 months, we've also seen a decline in policing resources. In my own constituency of Richmond Park, there is now no 24/7 police front counter in the whole of Richmond Borough, and the Royal Parks Police Force has been disbanded. Increasing pressure on neighbourhood teams.

And just this week, the police in in Richmond Park had to make an operational decision whether to provide a presence by Teddington Lock to deter children who are at risk of drowning from. From jumping off the lock or to police bonfires, drug use and anti-social behaviour on Richmond Green. I don't envy those officers who have to make these operational decisions, but it's the lack of funding that has put our local force in that position. But it's the rise of retail crime that has been most noticeable in our community.

And the Liberal Democrats have called on the government to do more to address this. Shoplifting not only causes. Yes.
17:05
None Portrait Speaker 4
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I thank.
17:05
None Portrait Speaker 21
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My honourable friend.
17:05
None Portrait Speaker 4
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For giving way.
17:05
17:05
17:06
17:06
None Portrait Speaker 24
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Sarah Olney.
17:06
None Portrait Speaker 29
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Um, I thank my honourable friend for that excellent intervention and for all of his work. He speaks so powerfully for the victims of domestic abuse. And I thank him for taking this opportunity to raise that particular issue. And I really hope the minister has has heard what he has to say, because that is, of course, an extremely serious point that he makes. And, of course, we should have the victims of domestic abuse at the front of our minds when we think on this issue and the particular risk that this creates for them at the rise of retail crime has been noticeable on our streets, and the Liberal Democrats have called on the government to do more to address this.

Shoplifting not only causes shops to lose out on sales, of which the costs are then passed on to paying customers. But it also means that staff members, often young people, are met with the possible threat of violence. Shoplifting has risen by a staggering 48% in England and Wales over the past five years. Every time I meet with an owner of a local store, I am told that shoplifting has become effectively decriminalised. Thieves don't feel the threat of reprisal, and their staff do not feel protected by law enforcement.

It is incredibly frustrating to me that the government has not connected the dots between an increased fear and crime, and the stripping back of our police force's ability to do their jobs. That is why the Liberal Democrats have been calling for more money for CCTV offering small independent convenience stores, grants and loans of up to £6,500 to install CCTV in order to deter shoplifting and to make our high streets safer. The installation of CCTV would act as a deterrent against shoplifting and abuse against staff, save money for police forces by preventing these crimes in the first place, and allow them to conclude investigations more quickly because of a stronger evidence base.

As is so often the case, shop owners and staff members are told by the police that it is not a cost effective use of their resource. To follow up on relatively minor thefts. However, to every local business and paying customer it is, and I urge the government to recognise the detrimental impact that shoplifting is having in our society and to take this issue seriously.
17:08
17:08
None Portrait Speaker 29
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Happy to give way.
17:08
17:08
17:10
17:10
None Portrait Speaker 30
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Thank you, Miss Hobhouse. It is a pleasure to serve with you in the chair. And congratulations to the honourable member for carefully for bringing this debate before us today. As other speakers in this debate have noted, the abuse faced by many people working in customer facing roles is deeply distressing. We should all be concerned by the rise in abuse, threats and physical assault against people just trying to do their jobs, and this trend cannot be divorced from the rise in so-called petty crime, including shoplifting.

As several honourable members have highlighted this afternoon. According to a survey conducted by the Union of Shop Distributive and Allied Workers, in cases where retail staff faced abuse, 70% of incidents had been triggered by shoplifting. Of those incidents, two thirds were related to drug addiction or suspected drug addiction, failing to clamp down on crimes like shoplifting isn't cost free. It doesn't just make life terrible for the businesses who are the direct victims of the theft. It puts retail workers and the public at risk, the kind of people who are engaged in habitual shoplifting are often involved in other types of crime, too.

They represent a very danger to us all, a very real danger to us all. Unfortunately, under this Government's Sentencing Act, up to 12000 of this country's most prolific shoplifters will avoid jail altogether, leaving them free not just to continue stealing, but to abuse and harass retail workers. But while prolific offenders walk free, law abiding people face ever more rules, ever more restrictions and ever greater suspicion from the authorities. Instead of going after the hyper prolific offenders who drive such a disproportionate amount of crime in this country, the state instead responds by making life harder for ordinary people.

Is it any wonder that so many people now feel that they're living under something called anarcho tyranny?In such circumstances, the state is either unable or unwilling to control violent crime, theft and genuine disorder. And so, while failing to enforce the law against genuine criminals, the state vigorously and inflexibly enforces a mountain of complex, often seemingly arbitrary rules on ordinary people who work hard, pay their taxes, and do the right thing. This can produce infuriating and ludicrous outcomes. Shop around the clock, a fabulous store, and Saint Michael's in my constituency is plagued by shoplifting.

Sookie, who manages the business very kindly, had me in for a morning shift last Friday. He told me that despite years of reporting, regular shoplifting to the police, the only time they visited was to let him know that the pictures he had put up of regular thieves violated GDPR. He also walked me through his report to the police of the latest shoplifting incident he'd suffered that Tuesday. The process was slow and repetitive, easily ten times as long as it needed to be for small business owners like Sookie, who are already doing a million things at once, it's often hard to justify that wasted time, especially given advances in technology.

This seems a crazy way to insist people record crimes. This is the experience of far too many people in Britain today. They feel their own behaviour restricted, and they meet with resistance and hassle when they engage with the authorities, while at the same time they see crime and disorder go unpunished. If they try to do something to stop that crime themselves, they're crushed. The rise in attacks against retail workers is one terrible manifestation of this, but there are many. This is clearly completely unfair.

But fortunately there is a solution. Speak to any member of the British public and they will be able to tell you exactly what to do. Spend less time on policing speech and filling out paperwork, and more time on catching thieves. Give police forces the tools they need to tackle these crimes. When we do catch a career criminal, make sure that they serve a proper prison sentence. Put simply, we can fix this problem by pursuing criminals, enforcing the law, and letting law abiding people get on with their lives.

My main specific question to the minister, given so much of this abuse is triggered by shoplifting, and given how onerous the process is of reporting, it is what conversation she might have had about changing this online reporting system, particularly in light of technological innovations, which it seems to me could make this so much simpler and faster.
17:13
17:13
None Portrait Speaker 31
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Thank you, Mrs. Hobhouse. It's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, and members might be pleased to know that I probably won't take all of that time. And maybe we'll give them a few minutes left in their life to do something else. But I did want to start by saying what?Um, uh, what an. Important debate this is. And my right hon. Friend the member for Caerphilly is absolutely right to bring the issue of abuse of our shop workers to this place.

It is enormously important, and there are many members of Parliament who, alongside the incredible work of the Co-op and Usdaw and others, have campaigned for the legislation that we have just passed for many, many, many years. I can remember in opposition, when I was the shadow policing minister, introducing this as amendments into legislation that the previous government was passing and having debates with the member for Croydon South, who was the policing minister at the time, who would argue that there was no need for this because it was an aggravating factor and that the the evidence didn't support its introduction.

And I think I think that argument was wrong. And I'm really pleased that we have passed this law. And I, um, I think it was the right thing to do for a number of reasons. Firstly, as um, my honourable friend said throughout his speech, we need to make sure we're kind of using this, this legislation. Now we have it and making sure we're implementing the legislation and seeing results. But I also do think it sends a really powerful message that we will not tolerate this behaviour and us in this place see this behaviour, we understand it and we will not tolerate it any more.

And I think it's really important that we are saying that loud and clear. I think the two speeches that we had, uh, from the member for Strangford and Burton and Uttoxeter were really important. And, you know, spoke to the hub, the nub of the problem. The member for Strangford said that people feel that the system has abandoned them. And I think that's right. And I think the spokesperson for the opposition, um member. For Wealden, Kent, also spoke to that, that, um, that feeling that people who live by the rules, play by the rules, feel how come everybody else seems to be getting away with it and not living by the rules.

And that has wider consequences for our society than just the sort of the problem we have with retail crime and the abuse of shop workers. And I think the the member for Burton and Uttoxeter spoke of a very serious case where somebody was doused in liquid and then threatened to be set on fire. I mean, that is horrific. Um, and I think that the abuse that Shopworkers um receive, which has been mentioned, um, by the spokesperson for the Lib Dems. Ranges from those very extreme cases to also the sort of abuse that people get every day.

And I can remember going to speak to. Uh, people who worked at my local co-op and talking to them about the abuse they felt and people saying to me, oh, well, it's just part of the job. No, it's not. And it needs to stop. And we need to make sure we're doing all the right things. I will.
17:17
17:17
None Portrait Speaker 6
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Minister.
17:17
None Portrait Speaker 31
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Uh, thank you for for that intervention. And, um, the honourable members are right to say that victim support and indeed other organisations give, give really important support in these kinds of situations. And we all, across multiple different government departments have a role to play in trying to stop this problem and stop the the problem of retail crime that goes alongside so much of the abuse that we see. And I wanted to to go on to that, um, in a bit more detail. The first thing I wanted to do is just to set out a bit of the statistics where we actually are in terms of shop theft, which drives a lot of the abuse that we see with prolific offenders.

That has been, uh, talked about. So in the last year before we came to power, there was a 30% rise in shop theft. And in this last year, there has been a 1% fall. So a 1% fall does not sound great, but compared to a 30% rise, we have completely we are we are turning the tide. Now, I know that members of the public will say, well, that's just statistics. That's not my experience, and it will take us a while to, um, make people feel safer and indeed tackle the huge problem that we still have.

But I just want to reassure members that because of the policing interventions that we have done and because of and member for Caerphilly asked this and because of what a lot of shops have done, we are beginning to turn the tide on shop theft and that is really important. And it is because a lot of the larger retailers who admittedly have more funds to do these things, like the co-op Group, co-op group, has done incredible things designing out crime in their shops, and they've actually seen the biggest fall, um, compared to anybody else.

Lots of other retailers are doing really interesting things, whether that's live facial recognition, whether that's designing out in the shop, the ability for people to get behind the counter, for example, and steal some of the alcohol that might be there that people do. You know, there are there are things that are having, um, cameras on shop workers or having security people. All of these things are undoubtedly making a difference. Um, and, uh, so is. The ability of our policing to respond.

And we have been really clear with our wonderful police that we want them in our neighbourhoods tackling these types of crime. And we've already seen more than 3000 more police in our neighbourhoods. And we have committed to 13000. The um. The spokesperson for the opposition member for Richmond Park talked about police numbers under the last government. As we know, they cut 20,000 police. They then recruited 20,000 police, but they put 12,000 of them behind desks.

Our measure is not exact numbers. We want more in our communities. We want 13,000 more in our communities, and we want outcomes. And that is what we are driving towards. Um, there are other things that we can do that we are doing, and I'm sure there'll be more things and we'll keep striving to do more. But there are things that we are doing in this space that I think will also make a difference. The member for Weald of Kent talked about technology and databases and wanting to cut all the bureaucracy for, um, our police and 100% agree with that.

And we launched last week police AI with £75 million of funding that is going to help use AI to take away some of the nonsense bureaucracy that our police have to do. And one of the first tasks that I have given them to do well, there's two first tasks in terms of outward facing technology. One is to tackle tool theft and the other is to tackle retail crime. There are lots of quite good systems that different parts of the country are using to more easily record shop theft and upload imagery and CCTV.

We want to design AI that can read across all of those so that, so that the police can easily see and bring together, uh, who the prolific offenders are. And, um, there was also in this debate talk about prolific offenders. And it's absolutely right that there are a small cohort of people who are responsible for a large amount of the retail crime and indeed the abuse against shop workers. We know that they are often people with very complex needs. They will have an addiction.

They will be drug addicts. They will be alcoholics. And, uh, we are designing in the Home Office a programme to target prolific. Now, some areas do this already and and people have been doing it increasingly. But there are things that we can put in place that help us really target that prolific cohort, whether that's the support that they need to get into treatment, or whether that is more interventions to, um, more interventions to make sure they can't do what they want to do.

The member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip said that, uh, we should be doing more on things like orders to stop people coming into a community, uh, tagging. We could use more. All of these things. I think we need to be using more. And we are designing a programme of work to do exactly that. And the member for Caerphilly said, uh, I would meet with Usdaw, always very happy to to do that. And I have done, uh, many times and I think it is probably timely that I meet them again.

Um, now that the bill has been passed, he asked how we will measure progress. I think very much so. In terms of actual absolute numbers, the reporting of these issues and what happens, um, and whether people are reporting, whether that's through Usdaw or links into the retail sector, whether that's through the crime statistics, what is actually happening as a result. He also asked really importantly about why it was just, uh, defined by shop workers and we didn't go wider and talk about transport workers or people, for example, who work in banks.

We deliberately kept it narrow so that we would avoid any sort of ambiguity in the courts. And I know people disagree with that, and we just have to agree to disagree. That's what we've done in this piece of legislation. But of course, if this piece of legislation makes a marked difference, which we hope it will, then of course, we need to look at whether it should apply elsewhere. I have met with um banks and have been having conversations about the particular challenge they have, which is less.

Well, I mean, they do have the problem of abuse. I don't want to deny that. But but the frequent protests that they are increasingly having, having, uh, a slightly different issue and one that we're talking to them about in terms of, uh, in terms of trying to support them through that. Um, so I think with the number of police in our community going up with the new rule that everything under £200 has to be investigated with new tech and it that can help us new AI that can help us read across all these different systems.

And with the law in place and the police given a very strong message that they we want to see, we want to see, um, people punished for abusing shop workers. And the work that we're beginning to do on prolific offenders. Hopefully, we will see increasingly, uh, results. But I think the fundamental point that the member for Caerphilly and everybody here has said is that we cannot accept this as normal behaviour. It isn't. We will not tolerate it and we will keep working until we tackle it.
17:24
None Portrait Speaker 6
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Tom Gordon.
17:24
17:25
17:26
None Portrait Speaker 20
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Yeah.
17:26
17:26
None Portrait Speaker 11
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Thank you, Miss Hobhouse. Um, again, I want to begin by paying tribute the Co-operative Party as a door, the British Retail Consortium and the Institute of Customer Service and all others who have worked so tirelessly and diligently to keep this issue on the political radar. I think it's really important the work they are doing as well. Um, I also want to pay tribute to everybody who spoke in this debate. The front bench spokespeople for the Liberal Democrats and the conservatives. I think what has proved, again, even though we may disagree, um, about our methods, but ultimately we all want the same thing and we want people to go about work in a safe manner and enjoy their jobs like they used to do.

And also, as the minister, I knew I would end up saying this, but the minister really gets this. I was really encouraged by her comments as well. In particular, I'm pleased that she's agreed to meet with us, though I know she's already met with them and they are empty as well. I know this is a relatively new piece of legislation. Obviously he passed this year, and obviously we have to see how this works out. I generally hope it's successful.

I think it will be successful, but I will say that, uh, for a legislation to be successful, it has to be properly enforced. And I really hope that will be will continue to happen across the country with various police forces as well. And I'm also pleased that, obviously, I understand that she has to see how the law, uh, pans out. And I'm pleased that she has given a commitment that she will look again at some point in the future at bank staff and also transport workers who are being abused on a daily basis as well.

But I just want to end by thanking everybody who took part in this debate. I think it's been a very worthwhile debate. It's been very harrowing in parts. Listen to some of the examples. But I would say I think what we have to realize is sometimes we talk about statistics an awful lot. We call these an awful lot in this debate and in this place generally. But behind each statistic is a family who is sending somebody out who unfortunately is in the line of danger.

But I'm hopeful that with this legislation, we can bring about change that's desperately needed.
17:28
None Portrait Speaker 20
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Thank you.
17:28
14:23
14:29
This debate has concluded
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