Culture, Media and Sport Committee
Tuesday 23rd June 2026
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10:02
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Welcome. To this meeting of the culture, Media and Sport Select Committee. And today is the fifth oral evidence session for our BBC Royal Charter Review Inquiry. And we are joined by our first panel. Who are. Patrick Holland, executive chair and CEO of Banerjee UK. By Dino Sofos, founder and CEO of Persephone. And Nigel Warner, CEO of patch, the trade body for independent production in the UK. Gentlemen, you're all very welcome.
Um, members, can I just remind you at the point you ask your questions to declare any relevant interests?And I am going to kick off the questions with, um, with Nigel. Um, and then I'm also going to come to you on the same question, Patrick, just to give you a little bit of advance warning, you've actually both advocated for the BBC to be funded by a household levy. We hear we've heard a lot of evidence as a select committee about different funding methods and about whether the current licence fee model actually works.
Why have you both suggested the household levy as being the solution to this?Nigel?
Um, members, can I just remind you at the point you ask your questions to declare any relevant interests?And I am going to kick off the questions with, um, with Nigel. Um, and then I'm also going to come to you on the same question, Patrick, just to give you a little bit of advance warning, you've actually both advocated for the BBC to be funded by a household levy. We hear we've heard a lot of evidence as a select committee about different funding methods and about whether the current licence fee model actually works.
Why have you both suggested the household levy as being the solution to this?Nigel?
10:03
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Um. I think the, uh. You know, the same question has been asked in a number of countries over the past decade or more. And, um, places like Germany have made, they have come to the conclusion that, you know, funding their public broadcasting system largely through kind of a universal household levy is, is, is the best approach. I mean, I think, I think that's an important principle. And, you know, that that the, the BBC should be funded universally. Um, I think the evidence is very much still there that, you know, it's used in, uh, the vast.
Majority of more than 95% of households. The problem with the licence fee is that now, you know, only 80% of households are paying it. And and, and that number is declining. So I think the advantages of putting turning it into a universal household levy is that, uh, for one, the cost per household could potentially reduce. Um, if you remove evasion in the system, it could actually be cheaper for individual households. You could also make it potentially more progressive by, you know, making it a lower levy for, for, you know, less well-off, less well-off households.
So there are quite a lot of advantages to moving out. There whilst preserving, um, the principle that the BBC is for, for us all and, and is paid for by us all.
Majority of more than 95% of households. The problem with the licence fee is that now, you know, only 80% of households are paying it. And and, and that number is declining. So I think the advantages of putting turning it into a universal household levy is that, uh, for one, the cost per household could potentially reduce. Um, if you remove evasion in the system, it could actually be cheaper for individual households. You could also make it potentially more progressive by, you know, making it a lower levy for, for, you know, less well-off, less well-off households.
So there are quite a lot of advantages to moving out. There whilst preserving, um, the principle that the BBC is for, for us all and, and is paid for by us all.
10:05
10:06
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Thank you chair. Just building on that. I think that the um Germany had this difficult discussion in 2013. And I'm no expert on the German politics of the time, but looking into it that there was a very brave and, and clear decision that was made, which said that having a licence on devices in a world where people are watching on a multitude of different devices, um, was not fit for purpose anymore. So the debate that was had that spoke about an environment, a broadcast environment, and that what you are doing by paying this levy that you were paying for as, as a nation as a whole, a series of standards around, um, of the, of the content that you're watching a free and fair news environment, a quality standard that was there.
And also the protection, I think, which is one is a key thing that, um, that was around German culture, language content, which meant that as a nation, you might not be paying, you might not watch ZDF, but you would think, well, I, I'm funding this environment because it's for the social good. So that sense of broadcasting for the social good. We have a brilliant PSB environment in this country. The best, I would argue, in the world. And so having a levy that matches this PSB environment.
And also just one last point is that the training, the quality of the individuals, the amazing sort of heritage that we have in this country, that is one of the reasons why we have such a strong streamer presence here. They are. They have come and invested because we've got fantastic talent in the UK, and I would suggest that the levy reflects that. And I would suggest that the levy reflects that. What we're doing is creating this, this we're asking people to respond to the creating this culture, which actually then has enabled the streamers to create shows like adolescents and those types of pieces that could feel like, um, that they speak to audiences across the UK.
So that's why I think it's a very, a, as Nigel also said, there's the ability to be progressive in the way that that would be implemented.
And also the protection, I think, which is one is a key thing that, um, that was around German culture, language content, which meant that as a nation, you might not be paying, you might not watch ZDF, but you would think, well, I, I'm funding this environment because it's for the social good. So that sense of broadcasting for the social good. We have a brilliant PSB environment in this country. The best, I would argue, in the world. And so having a levy that matches this PSB environment.
And also just one last point is that the training, the quality of the individuals, the amazing sort of heritage that we have in this country, that is one of the reasons why we have such a strong streamer presence here. They are. They have come and invested because we've got fantastic talent in the UK, and I would suggest that the levy reflects that. And I would suggest that the levy reflects that. What we're doing is creating this, this we're asking people to respond to the creating this culture, which actually then has enabled the streamers to create shows like adolescents and those types of pieces that could feel like, um, that they speak to audiences across the UK.
So that's why I think it's a very, a, as Nigel also said, there's the ability to be progressive in the way that that would be implemented.
10:12
10:12
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I mean, people talk about an ecosystem and the ecosystem in the UK, in broadcast, in, in, in television production, I would suggest is the envy of the world. And at the heart of that system is the BBC. And that's not to detract from the streamers and from other individuals, you know, other companies that have come in and um, and have create content for audience or for audiences. But what the BBC does, it has a unique commitment to British content. It has a unique commitment to British producers.
It has a commitment to truth and impartiality. That means that you have that gold standard around, um, the quality of the programme that you're watching and from you also have from us as producers is that we have, since the 2003 Broadcasting Act, the terms of trade mean that producers in the UK retain their IP. So if you look at a programme like Peaky Blinders, or if you look at a programme like MasterChef, both of those programmes were initially made for the BBC. Banerjee owns the IP of those companies.
And then as those companies, those those programmes and also Black Mirror, Black Mirror that was made for, um, for channel four. The IP is retained by the producer. And so when there are subsequent iterations of that programme, a licence fee comes back to the producer. And so what you're able to do is grow your business based on a long tail of investment in a or sorry, long tail of income from revenue from a particular programme, which you can then use to invest in further research and development in terms of your development spend.
So the growth of companies like the company that make MasterChef and the company that makes Peaky Blinders have all been possible because of that retention of IP and the partnership model that it enables.
It has a commitment to truth and impartiality. That means that you have that gold standard around, um, the quality of the programme that you're watching and from you also have from us as producers is that we have, since the 2003 Broadcasting Act, the terms of trade mean that producers in the UK retain their IP. So if you look at a programme like Peaky Blinders, or if you look at a programme like MasterChef, both of those programmes were initially made for the BBC. Banerjee owns the IP of those companies.
And then as those companies, those those programmes and also Black Mirror, Black Mirror that was made for, um, for channel four. The IP is retained by the producer. And so when there are subsequent iterations of that programme, a licence fee comes back to the producer. And so what you're able to do is grow your business based on a long tail of investment in a or sorry, long tail of income from revenue from a particular programme, which you can then use to invest in further research and development in terms of your development spend.
So the growth of companies like the company that make MasterChef and the company that makes Peaky Blinders have all been possible because of that retention of IP and the partnership model that it enables.
10:15
10:15
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I mean, obviously the BBC has been going through funding challenges and the hyper inflation. I mean, actually the inflation has started to come down a bit in in in scripted production, in particular, the inflation in scripted over the last five years has just been astonishing double digit. And it's meant that the BBC is facing ever more challenges in terms of, you know, with the same amount of money spending it on, on, on an ever increasing amount of production in ever increasing costs of production. So I think that the BBC have said that they want to preserve the programme budget, and they need to be thinking about cuts around it.
I really hope that audiences, you know, crucially, the BBC has a connection with audiences that is unparalleled across, um, the audience. Audiences of the UK. And so it's imperative that as much as possible is spent on the programming budget, not for us as producers, but for, for the audience, because we want to sustain that link between, um, public service content and the audience.
I really hope that audiences, you know, crucially, the BBC has a connection with audiences that is unparalleled across, um, the audience. Audiences of the UK. And so it's imperative that as much as possible is spent on the programming budget, not for us as producers, but for, for the audience, because we want to sustain that link between, um, public service content and the audience.
10:17
10:18
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Um, well, I mean, the decline in investment in children's TV is, you know, is has been happening for an awful long time. I mean, the BBC remains, you know, one of the few places left really along along to some extent with channel five where that is happening. So yeah, that would be very worried. I mean, you know, to. Be frank, I think that that reducing your programme budget in an era when, you know, audiences are all about content and all about where that content is, is a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I think if the BBC is looking to, to, to, to find savings, then it should be trying to do to do that as far as possible, away from making reductions in its programme budget, in children's and in all other areas.
I think if the BBC is looking to, to, to, to find savings, then it should be trying to do to do that as far as possible, away from making reductions in its programme budget, in children's and in all other areas.
10:20
10:20
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Been very supportive of Caesar. We've always been in dialogue with Caesar in terms of we've had questions during the last number of years in terms of what the process, you know, how do we make Caesar fit for purpose in terms of as, as an as, as different organisations across television and other parts of the creative industries, having that dialogue in order to be able to build the best standards authority possible. But our current position is that we're we're funding Caesar. And we we had we convened a group of producers and different production organisations with Caesar, you know, in a in a HQ in the last few months.
And it was a fantastically productive session. And we move on.
And it was a fantastically productive session. And we move on.
10:21
10:22
10:24
10:24
10:25
10:25
10:27
10:27
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I come back to Steve Knight was here the other day and we have an investment with Steve Knight in terms of Knight kudos Knight, which is in the West Midlands and the transformative effect of a BBC charter which has um, I mean the BBC has got regionality baked into its, its being at the moment, its purposes and the building on what has happened in the West Midlands, I think is, is a really great example of how the next charter should evolve, which is this is a. We're competing for audiences on a world stage.
So if the audience watches a show and it's from. And it's less good than a show, that they will get on another service, that means they will not watch the show. So it's imperative that you meet the audience need first. But audiences love content that reflects their lives, that tells them stories that echo with their own experiences. So what's happened in the West Midlands is we've moved Peaky Blinders to the West Midlands. We have worked with the West Midlands Authority in order to be able to build a really strong production ecosystem there, together with the BBC.
We've also um and which is a major piece of work, is that three series of MasterChef a year have all moved to a bespoke studio in the West Midlands. And you're all very welcome to come and visit it at any time. But it's one it's a sustainable, purpose built studio than the old banana warehouse, employing now, in its second year, over 150 people from the West Midlands in that particular. So what we've done is got a self-sustaining, very successful series that now has is is of the region and is also is a is a skills base for the region.
And so what you have to do in terms of, of, of, of really promoting growth within particular clusters is that you have to have that commitment, you have to do it over time. You can't just come in and make one show and disappear and think that's going to be transformative. You have to be able to build a skills base. That means that over time, that person who starts as a runner will end up as a series producer or end up as the executive producer.
And that indeed, just coming back to another. So I used to work at the BBC. I used to be the head of BBC two, and when I was there we commissioned a series called ambulance. Actually, it was on BBC one, but the ambulance is a series that is made by the one of our production companies, and it moved to Manchester a number of years ago. And the person who's the series editor started as the as the as the runner. And that's because of sustained investment and commitment to a show over time.
And I would suggest that in the charter that that sense of how does the BBC drop anchor in particular areas and build those clusters is something that we would be hugely supportive of.
So if the audience watches a show and it's from. And it's less good than a show, that they will get on another service, that means they will not watch the show. So it's imperative that you meet the audience need first. But audiences love content that reflects their lives, that tells them stories that echo with their own experiences. So what's happened in the West Midlands is we've moved Peaky Blinders to the West Midlands. We have worked with the West Midlands Authority in order to be able to build a really strong production ecosystem there, together with the BBC.
We've also um and which is a major piece of work, is that three series of MasterChef a year have all moved to a bespoke studio in the West Midlands. And you're all very welcome to come and visit it at any time. But it's one it's a sustainable, purpose built studio than the old banana warehouse, employing now, in its second year, over 150 people from the West Midlands in that particular. So what we've done is got a self-sustaining, very successful series that now has is is of the region and is also is a is a skills base for the region.
And so what you have to do in terms of, of, of, of really promoting growth within particular clusters is that you have to have that commitment, you have to do it over time. You can't just come in and make one show and disappear and think that's going to be transformative. You have to be able to build a skills base. That means that over time, that person who starts as a runner will end up as a series producer or end up as the executive producer.
And that indeed, just coming back to another. So I used to work at the BBC. I used to be the head of BBC two, and when I was there we commissioned a series called ambulance. Actually, it was on BBC one, but the ambulance is a series that is made by the one of our production companies, and it moved to Manchester a number of years ago. And the person who's the series editor started as the as the as the runner. And that's because of sustained investment and commitment to a show over time.
And I would suggest that in the charter that that sense of how does the BBC drop anchor in particular areas and build those clusters is something that we would be hugely supportive of.
10:31
10:32
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, I've been in this job for just a few months, but throughout that time I've been travelling all around the the nations and regions of the UK meeting, you know, pack members and talking about, you know, their experiences and what's happening to them on the ground. The BBC is a really important part of, of, of that, of that story. In fact, I mean, more than a third of all the commissioning of content in the nations and regions is done by the BBC.
So it's a really, really important player. Um, and it is the only broadcaster that has those kind of specific obligations in relation to commissioning in the nations themselves. Um, but I think the picture that emerges for me is one that's very much more, um, collaborative. Than I expected. And actually, you know, the BBC is a partner, as Patrick says, in a lot of those places and there are other partners, the screen agencies are becoming a very, very important part because ultimately, you know, one of the things that, you know, you've identified already in this in this inquiry is that, you know, the funding that's available for commissioning from the BBC and other public service broadcasters is declining.
Um, and therefore other people are having to come forward with funding contributions in order to get productions over the line. So, you know, more than £650 million went into the public service broadcasting system last year from third party, from third party funders. And most of that is from from my members, from independent producers. So it's becoming a much more collaborative operation, particularly in those nations and regions, areas where, you know, you've got the local screen agencies, you know, you've got the local producers, you've got, um, equity funding, and then you've got the public service broadcasters as well.
You can't do it. The BBC can't do everything and you can't do it all on your own. It's, it's becoming a much more collaborative endeavour.
So it's a really, really important player. Um, and it is the only broadcaster that has those kind of specific obligations in relation to commissioning in the nations themselves. Um, but I think the picture that emerges for me is one that's very much more, um, collaborative. Than I expected. And actually, you know, the BBC is a partner, as Patrick says, in a lot of those places and there are other partners, the screen agencies are becoming a very, very important part because ultimately, you know, one of the things that, you know, you've identified already in this in this inquiry is that, you know, the funding that's available for commissioning from the BBC and other public service broadcasters is declining.
Um, and therefore other people are having to come forward with funding contributions in order to get productions over the line. So, you know, more than £650 million went into the public service broadcasting system last year from third party, from third party funders. And most of that is from from my members, from independent producers. So it's becoming a much more collaborative operation, particularly in those nations and regions, areas where, you know, you've got the local screen agencies, you know, you've got the local producers, you've got, um, equity funding, and then you've got the public service broadcasters as well.
You can't do it. The BBC can't do everything and you can't do it all on your own. It's, it's becoming a much more collaborative endeavour.
10:35
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Thank you for that. Um Nigel, so you've obviously you mentioned sort of collaborative and um, Patrick, you mentioned Regionality, which I liked and um, you spoke about the relocation element. Now there's certain sort of issues around sort of, you know, the pressures on sort of funding these productions and the set up. And so fixed costs would be one, you know, obviously the, the facilities to actually produce this kind of content is key. So how important is it that local government, sort of regional government sort of in this in this sort of commitment to spread this sort of, you know, this regional voice?
10:36
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I mean, it's really, you know, as I say, it's really kind of moving forward, particularly in in some areas you might have seen in recent in recent weeks, Greater Manchester announced a £10.5 million fund to contribute towards supporting development and production production costs. There are funds, obviously, in the devolved nations that are established with the screen agencies, Creative Wales and Northern Ireland screen, uh and and Screen Scotland. And then there are, you know, burgeoning. It's a, it's a, it's a patchy, uh, picture, if you like, in the English regions, some areas are, you know, further forward in some of this than others particularly, but we've got kind of combined authorities like, like in the West Midlands, like in the North East.
There is a lot going on there. And those local authorities are very involved in supporting, you know, development, supporting and supporting, supporting production. It's becoming a very important part of the mix.
There is a lot going on there. And those local authorities are very involved in supporting, you know, development, supporting and supporting, supporting production. It's becoming a very important part of the mix.
10:37
10:37
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Just build on that by saying that the the growth potential is, is significant. If you think about a, you're just thinking about regionality and growth. The one thing I would just counsel or just warn against is that having the BBC with lots of fixed quotas around Regionality and making them less competitive with the streamers who have no such compunction, that is something that you need that level playing field in terms of ensuring that the BBC, I mean, we we argued for attack the tax credit and improved tax credit for mid-range.
Dramas because they are the levels that the SBS are commissioning at. That's around the sort of £2 million sub £3 million an hour mark. And that that would really help those SBS who are competing against the streamers. Who can they can they can decide to sort of they don't they can move a show to London. So if there are extra costs that come, which are associated with being in Birmingham, Manchester or, or Glasgow, that could be really helped with um, with, with an improved tax credit for those, those mid-range dramas.
Dramas because they are the levels that the SBS are commissioning at. That's around the sort of £2 million sub £3 million an hour mark. And that that would really help those SBS who are competing against the streamers. Who can they can they can decide to sort of they don't they can move a show to London. So if there are extra costs that come, which are associated with being in Birmingham, Manchester or, or Glasgow, that could be really helped with um, with, with an improved tax credit for those, those mid-range dramas.
10:39
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10:40
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
The BBC, our um commissions from outside London I think are over 70% now. So of, of our, you know, we, we make over 1000 hours of television a year, 70% plus from the BBC is commissioned out of London. And, and also if you think about some of that is about portrayal, it's about the commitment to Regionality regional voices. And as I say, you know, James Graham was talking about Sherwood Blue Lights is an astonishing piece from Northern Ireland. Neither of them, unfortunately, are banned shows, but Peaky Blinders will be, um.
But the um but the. Shows it's imperative that if you're a public if you're the BBC and you're the public service voice of the of the country, then you reflect the voices of the nation back to themselves. And that has increased.
But the um but the. Shows it's imperative that if you're a public if you're the BBC and you're the public service voice of the of the country, then you reflect the voices of the nation back to themselves. And that has increased.
10:42
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
We, I mean, we'd very much like to see more devolved decision making authority and, and resources to the BBC's operations locally in the nations and regions to streamline the process, if nothing else, to help, to help to, you know, accelerate the process of commissioning, to prevent our members spending lots and lots of time, you know, at their own cost in development to make decision making much faster, to avoid getting into, you know, lots and lots of back and forth between different editorial teams. I think that would make that would make a significant difference in terms of speeding that process up and improving, improving and reducing cost for, for our members in that.
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10:44
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Record my role as the chair of the all party group on the BBC. Good morning Dino. Um, yeah, we were just going to ask you about your experience. I want to get into thinking about the importance of the BBC to the independent podcast sector. So can you talk to us about your experience of getting the BBC to engage with, I suppose what started as a relatively small independent company based in Sheffield?
10:45
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Absolutely. Yeah. Um, so it was a heart and a head thing to open in Sheffield. In Sheffield. Um we went to the BBC for 14 years and I think it became apparent working at the BBC in London that um voices like mine, uh, also working class voices, people from outside London, especially news weren't being represented. So and I was just aware of the burgeoning scene and talent that's prevalent in South Yorkshire. Uh, it's an amazing region.
I also think we have a competitive advantage as, um, in the podcast sector. So it's been amazing to, to hear from the big TV companies. And I'm aware that they do need big, expensive studios and warehouses. And, um, it was really interesting to, to hear from Steven Knight about what's happening in Birmingham, which is fantastic. But the competitive advantage for podcasters is that, you know, post Covid, a lot of shows are made remotely. So we make some of the biggest podcasts in the world.
We make podcasts for Dua Lipa, uh, Zoe Ball and Jo Whiley. And a lot of those presenters are because they want to present from their homes. Now why?Would we do that from London as an independent company, setting up my my HQ?Why would we do that in London when office space is expensive?So what we've done is we've created, uh, based our HQ in Sheffield and through that we are controlling and producing the shows from from the region. And what that means is we can tap into the amazing talent that is coming out of, um, colleges, universities across South Yorkshire.
And frankly, you know, I went to go and speak to the, uh. The, the chap who runs the UTC technical college in, in South Yorkshire, which is training, you know, kids in media and asked him, can he came to see me and I said, you know, in the last two years, how many of your students have gone on to jobs in the media?And he said, none. So it's a scandal, basically, because there are no jobs in the areas. And a lot of the areas where people are being educated, where they're training, they would have to leave the region or their home city to go and get a job in the industry.
They want to work in. Um, so we're able to do something about that in a, in a small way initially, but I think it presents a massive opportunity, especially to the BBC. And I'll give you an example. So, um, as well as producing shows where the presenters are based around the UK and around the world, actually we are tapping into the creator economy in South Yorkshire. So, um, because I was based there and on the ground, I was aware of a comedian, uh, Chris McClure, who's created a character called Steve Bracknell, who's a fictional Sunday League football manager.
And he was blowing up on social media, billions of views globally. Um, so I, I went for a drink with Jono Wall, who's the director of BBC sounds, and I said to him, look, this guy's amazing. He's blowing up on social media. I think there's a bigger thing here. I think he could have a podcast Social media. I think there's a bigger thing here. I think he could have a podcast and and it's a visualized podcast.
We can talk a bit about this as, as our worlds are blurring now because podcasts are now visualized. YouTube's the biggest podcast platform globally. And so the BBC took a risk on that on that show. And they commissioned 80 episodes off the bat. We built a studio in a derelict, um, classroom in, in the heart of Sheffield city centre in red tape studios. And we can talk a bit about how I work with the council and the combined authority there.
It's also a great opportunity, and we are employing an entirely local team of working class, um, producers, camera operators, runners. We're giving them their first jobs, working on a BBC production. And crucially to your point, this isn't always on production. It's not just the six episode run. We are able to provide a sustainable jobs for not just producers, but also talent. In fact, one of our, um, one of our talent actually came off benefits to, to work on, to present this show.
It's now providing regular work for him, which is incredible. Um. And through our work with the council, I mean, I have to say, Sheffield City Council. Joseph, who's the, the, the chief executive there and Oliver Coppard, the, the regional mayor have been incredible. And I think you're hearing a pattern of this in Birmingham where they actually have money and they are willing to support the creative sector, frankly, because they have a problem in that there are, you know, there's millions of pounds worth of investment going into cities to regenerate cities like Sheffield, and there's no jobs there.
Right?So we need to create jobs. So how do they do that?Well, they hand over space to people like ourselves. And I think what's interesting and something to plug into the next, the conversations about the next, what the next charter looks like. I think it's probably unreasonable to expect, given what's happening with the licence fee, for the BBC to be able to build another media city to build what's happening in Birmingham. But I'm not really asking the BBC for that.
What I'm asking the BBC to do is to commit, uh, commissioning. Um, is to devolve commissioning power. So what we've done with Steve Ratner, what we're doing with other shows, if they were to say, actually X percentage of our there is clearly a podcasting centre of excellence developing in South Yorkshire. If we were to devolve X percent of of that to to the region, then we would be able to commit to more productions, hire more people and work with the private sector as well.
And the, and the, and the, and the regional combined authority. So another example of that, and this is, you know, we can talk here about the broader ecosystem of, of podcasting because it's not just content. Next weekend, the Crossed Wires Podcast Festival is taking place in Sheffield. It's the biggest podcast festival in the world going into its third year. Um, and that was made possible by um, the. By Simcoe South, the combined authority in South Yorkshire funding it, giving us a loan to start that festival.
And last year it brought, it brought £1 million worth of investment to the city across one weekend. But it is also creating jobs across the weekend, not only for podcasters, but for set designers for hospitality. I think we heard from from from Stephen Knight the other day about the kind of the soft power and the broader effects of the economy of, of creating investment in, in regions in a certain sector. So I think for the BBC recognising where clusters are popping up, clusters and centres of excellence in a specific genre, whether it be podcast or medium, whether it be podcasting in our example, and doubling down on those and working with creators, but also recognising that there is an opportunity to work with local government to fund and to find space where we can inhabit.
I also think we have a competitive advantage as, um, in the podcast sector. So it's been amazing to, to hear from the big TV companies. And I'm aware that they do need big, expensive studios and warehouses. And, um, it was really interesting to, to hear from Steven Knight about what's happening in Birmingham, which is fantastic. But the competitive advantage for podcasters is that, you know, post Covid, a lot of shows are made remotely. So we make some of the biggest podcasts in the world.
We make podcasts for Dua Lipa, uh, Zoe Ball and Jo Whiley. And a lot of those presenters are because they want to present from their homes. Now why?Would we do that from London as an independent company, setting up my my HQ?Why would we do that in London when office space is expensive?So what we've done is we've created, uh, based our HQ in Sheffield and through that we are controlling and producing the shows from from the region. And what that means is we can tap into the amazing talent that is coming out of, um, colleges, universities across South Yorkshire.
And frankly, you know, I went to go and speak to the, uh. The, the chap who runs the UTC technical college in, in South Yorkshire, which is training, you know, kids in media and asked him, can he came to see me and I said, you know, in the last two years, how many of your students have gone on to jobs in the media?And he said, none. So it's a scandal, basically, because there are no jobs in the areas. And a lot of the areas where people are being educated, where they're training, they would have to leave the region or their home city to go and get a job in the industry.
They want to work in. Um, so we're able to do something about that in a, in a small way initially, but I think it presents a massive opportunity, especially to the BBC. And I'll give you an example. So, um, as well as producing shows where the presenters are based around the UK and around the world, actually we are tapping into the creator economy in South Yorkshire. So, um, because I was based there and on the ground, I was aware of a comedian, uh, Chris McClure, who's created a character called Steve Bracknell, who's a fictional Sunday League football manager.
And he was blowing up on social media, billions of views globally. Um, so I, I went for a drink with Jono Wall, who's the director of BBC sounds, and I said to him, look, this guy's amazing. He's blowing up on social media. I think there's a bigger thing here. I think he could have a podcast Social media. I think there's a bigger thing here. I think he could have a podcast and and it's a visualized podcast.
We can talk a bit about this as, as our worlds are blurring now because podcasts are now visualized. YouTube's the biggest podcast platform globally. And so the BBC took a risk on that on that show. And they commissioned 80 episodes off the bat. We built a studio in a derelict, um, classroom in, in the heart of Sheffield city centre in red tape studios. And we can talk a bit about how I work with the council and the combined authority there.
It's also a great opportunity, and we are employing an entirely local team of working class, um, producers, camera operators, runners. We're giving them their first jobs, working on a BBC production. And crucially to your point, this isn't always on production. It's not just the six episode run. We are able to provide a sustainable jobs for not just producers, but also talent. In fact, one of our, um, one of our talent actually came off benefits to, to work on, to present this show.
It's now providing regular work for him, which is incredible. Um. And through our work with the council, I mean, I have to say, Sheffield City Council. Joseph, who's the, the, the chief executive there and Oliver Coppard, the, the regional mayor have been incredible. And I think you're hearing a pattern of this in Birmingham where they actually have money and they are willing to support the creative sector, frankly, because they have a problem in that there are, you know, there's millions of pounds worth of investment going into cities to regenerate cities like Sheffield, and there's no jobs there.
Right?So we need to create jobs. So how do they do that?Well, they hand over space to people like ourselves. And I think what's interesting and something to plug into the next, the conversations about the next, what the next charter looks like. I think it's probably unreasonable to expect, given what's happening with the licence fee, for the BBC to be able to build another media city to build what's happening in Birmingham. But I'm not really asking the BBC for that.
What I'm asking the BBC to do is to commit, uh, commissioning. Um, is to devolve commissioning power. So what we've done with Steve Ratner, what we're doing with other shows, if they were to say, actually X percentage of our there is clearly a podcasting centre of excellence developing in South Yorkshire. If we were to devolve X percent of of that to to the region, then we would be able to commit to more productions, hire more people and work with the private sector as well.
And the, and the, and the, and the regional combined authority. So another example of that, and this is, you know, we can talk here about the broader ecosystem of, of podcasting because it's not just content. Next weekend, the Crossed Wires Podcast Festival is taking place in Sheffield. It's the biggest podcast festival in the world going into its third year. Um, and that was made possible by um, the. By Simcoe South, the combined authority in South Yorkshire funding it, giving us a loan to start that festival.
And last year it brought, it brought £1 million worth of investment to the city across one weekend. But it is also creating jobs across the weekend, not only for podcasters, but for set designers for hospitality. I think we heard from from from Stephen Knight the other day about the kind of the soft power and the broader effects of the economy of, of creating investment in, in regions in a certain sector. So I think for the BBC recognising where clusters are popping up, clusters and centres of excellence in a specific genre, whether it be podcast or medium, whether it be podcasting in our example, and doubling down on those and working with creators, but also recognising that there is an opportunity to work with local government to fund and to find space where we can inhabit.
10:59
11:00
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I think we've heard a lot about tax breaks. We'd be we'd be hugely. I mean, that's for for a broader, you know, broader investment and broader government policy. I think when it comes to the BBC, I think encouraging the BBC, I think to be honest, you're pushing against an open door because the BBC does want to represent local communities more. But I think anything that you can do and encourage the BBC to find, it's fantastic what's happening in Birmingham, it's fantastic what's happening in Salford, but the North, the north is a very big place.
You know, there are people in Sheffield who won't watch Look North because it's filmed in Leeds, right?Look, Leeds, they call it. So I think it's you know, I remember sort of when I was working at the BBC, um they took a bunch of us over to sort of convince us. I just moved to London and I was enjoying living in London at that time. And they, they took a, they took a coachload of us to, to Salford to see what was happening, convinced us to, to live there.
And they were talking about the North as this homogenous area. And I think things have moved on a lot. But you know, to to commute from Sheffield to Salford is a massive pain. You know, it's actually I'd rather go to London to be honest with you. And it's expensive and the trains don't work. So we need to create opportunities in places where, you know, places like South Yorkshire where there are so many colleges and universities and talent, frankly.
And we need to provide opportunities where those people are living and growing up.
You know, there are people in Sheffield who won't watch Look North because it's filmed in Leeds, right?Look, Leeds, they call it. So I think it's you know, I remember sort of when I was working at the BBC, um they took a bunch of us over to sort of convince us. I just moved to London and I was enjoying living in London at that time. And they, they took a, they took a coachload of us to, to Salford to see what was happening, convinced us to, to live there.
And they were talking about the North as this homogenous area. And I think things have moved on a lot. But you know, to to commute from Sheffield to Salford is a massive pain. You know, it's actually I'd rather go to London to be honest with you. And it's expensive and the trains don't work. So we need to create opportunities in places where, you know, places like South Yorkshire where there are so many colleges and universities and talent, frankly.
And we need to provide opportunities where those people are living and growing up.
11:03
11:04
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Well, I think so. In fact, interestingly, the Steve Bracknell podcast, which I, which I referenced is the BBC's first YouTube first podcast commission. So it didn't go on iPlayer, it went on YouTube. And that was again, a big gamble for them. But if we did, um, it's paying dividends I think. And you know, there is an element here of going where the audience are. And if you want to reach young audiences, you have to go there.
So believe it or not, uh, Steve Bracknell has created such an amazing community and audience that we, we staged a fictional live Sunday league game, um, which, uh, 300 000 people watched on the, on the live stream. Um, and, you know, one of the things that was, was incredible about that was that 10% of the audience were under 18, 65% were under 35. So on that platform specifically, I just don't think they would be getting that audience on BBC sounds on iPlayer, maybe, but they're really it's really important to go where the audience are.
So believe it or not, uh, Steve Bracknell has created such an amazing community and audience that we, we staged a fictional live Sunday league game, um, which, uh, 300 000 people watched on the, on the live stream. Um, and, you know, one of the things that was, was incredible about that was that 10% of the audience were under 18, 65% were under 35. So on that platform specifically, I just don't think they would be getting that audience on BBC sounds on iPlayer, maybe, but they're really it's really important to go where the audience are.
11:06
11:07
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think the, um, I mean, podcast is something that we're not we some of our companies make podcasts, but we're not podcasts. You know, we're specialists. However, I'd just say two things. The first is that it's obviously a hugely growing part of the, of the sector, the entertainment sector, and that the, um. That how you in terms of the BBC's relationship with YouTube is that when I was at the BBC, there was always a. That fear about YouTube as being a, um, as being people who are there that are not necessarily your friends, that they are your competitors.
And so why would you put your content on a competitor's platform?But I do increasingly, we see audience data that suggests that audiences do see attribution. There was always that fear about attribution. Will audiences see that?We'll see your podcast and think that's a BBC podcast, or will they say it's just a podcast?So I think attribution is really important. But secondly, to your point building, you know, the, the going where the audience is, but also being able to bring them back.
And I think if you see the success of traitors podcast that has brought audiences back to traitors on television. And so actually these things, you know, we're talking to the BBC at the moment about doing some MasterChef content just for YouTube, which I think at the moment there are restrictions around because it's monetized. It would be original content for YouTube, but it's, um, I think after with this charter, we need to see YouTube as a place where you go and, and put content that brings audiences back to iPlayer and sounds awesome.
And so why would you put your content on a competitor's platform?But I do increasingly, we see audience data that suggests that audiences do see attribution. There was always that fear about attribution. Will audiences see that?We'll see your podcast and think that's a BBC podcast, or will they say it's just a podcast?So I think attribution is really important. But secondly, to your point building, you know, the, the going where the audience is, but also being able to bring them back.
And I think if you see the success of traitors podcast that has brought audiences back to traitors on television. And so actually these things, you know, we're talking to the BBC at the moment about doing some MasterChef content just for YouTube, which I think at the moment there are restrictions around because it's monetized. It would be original content for YouTube, but it's, um, I think after with this charter, we need to see YouTube as a place where you go and, and put content that brings audiences back to iPlayer and sounds awesome.
11:10
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I mean, I would say, you know, uh, your to your word about the blurring. I mean, there was, you know, talking to our members, you know, a lot of them are exploring other opportunities to raise revenues on third party platforms, setting up, setting up YouTube channels, exploring podcast opportunities, all of which comes into that sort of building a mix of funding around a piece of content, around a piece of IP, which ultimately is, is the thing that matters the most, the most in all of this, just and just on YouTube.
I mean, you know, the BBC is clearly exploring new opportunities there. Um, and I think, you know, it is something where we need to talk to the BBC in, in more detail about its commissioning approach to that content about how producers are being remunerated for providing the BBC with content for its YouTube channels, about how those commissioning deals are structured. Because, you know, we don't want it to kind of become a back door way for the BBC to commission content. And that then goes on to other platforms.
So it's a kind of, you know, it's an emerging area where I think there is there's more conversation, certainly to be had between ourselves and the BBC about that.
I mean, you know, the BBC is clearly exploring new opportunities there. Um, and I think, you know, it is something where we need to talk to the BBC in, in more detail about its commissioning approach to that content about how producers are being remunerated for providing the BBC with content for its YouTube channels, about how those commissioning deals are structured. Because, you know, we don't want it to kind of become a back door way for the BBC to commission content. And that then goes on to other platforms.
So it's a kind of, you know, it's an emerging area where I think there is there's more conversation, certainly to be had between ourselves and the BBC about that.
11:11
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thanks, Jeff. Um, can I, before we move on, Dina, can I just ask you a question?Because what you talk about very much resonates with me, even though my my constituency is right on the South coast. But people talk about the South and really mean London. Yeah, sure. And there's, you know, there's equally there's not opportunity for youngsters from Southampton and Portsmouth in the same way that you describe. Um and one frustration of mine is that if I go to the big BBC, uh.
Studios, the HQ in Southampton, which is, you know, prime piece of real estate right next to the Guildhall, very glamorous, but it feels quite empty. Uh, and one of my, um, sort of constant moans is that they don't seem to be sweating the assets. If you had a premises like that with, with that sort of facilities, what do you think that they could do with it that actually would would be beneficial for the BBC, but actually for the wider ecosystem.
Studios, the HQ in Southampton, which is, you know, prime piece of real estate right next to the Guildhall, very glamorous, but it feels quite empty. Uh, and one of my, um, sort of constant moans is that they don't seem to be sweating the assets. If you had a premises like that with, with that sort of facilities, what do you think that they could do with it that actually would would be beneficial for the BBC, but actually for the wider ecosystem.
11:13
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
That's what I'm pitching for in Sheffield and I'd love that. Um, so I think it's a mixed ecosystem. It's creating a cluster. I think it's important probably that it's not just the BBC in that building. I think that actually having some people from the private sector, other independent companies in there, you create a bit of healthy competition. Um, I think, you know, the BBC building in Sheffield is incredibly sad and there's been a lot of job cuts and it doesn't look very sexy, to be honest.
Um, and that's really that's, you know, I feel, I feel I really regret that. Um, I think what we would do is we would put, um, on the ground floor if you're asking me for specifics, we're doing a lot of live events, live podcast events in Sheffield. I'd have a radio theatre north in Sheffield. So we're doing this weekend. We're going to have about 40 BBC shows being recorded and then filmed for iPlayer. Actually, this sorry, this next weekend, um, I would make that a regular feature.
I would have shows happening every month at least. So you're training up people in live events, filming live events, sound engineers. Um, I would also have studios that are bookable and, uh, open to people who are training. And so we can develop skills as well. But I think what's really important is it's not just giving people more work experience, it's actually giving people job opportunities. So I think, yeah, that's what we'd like to do. We'd like to have Indies working there.
We'd like to have studios. And I think it's really important that the I mean, we we don't have this in Sheffield actually, we don't have this in South Yorkshire. But you can't be what you can't see. And um, I think in London you can walk past broadcasting House and kind of think I'd love to work there. I could see myself working there. Um, but we need those places up and down the UK where it's accessible, where you can walk in.
I mean, you know, next weekend we're going to have Greg James walking around Sheffield and I saw two lads from Barnsley actually, uh, the first year that Greg came and they came up to him and they didn't know he was going to be there. And they asked him to record some radio jingles for their for their college radio show. Now, where they wouldn't get that opportunity otherwise. So we have to have talent there and we have to have opportunities.
Um, and that's really that's, you know, I feel, I feel I really regret that. Um, I think what we would do is we would put, um, on the ground floor if you're asking me for specifics, we're doing a lot of live events, live podcast events in Sheffield. I'd have a radio theatre north in Sheffield. So we're doing this weekend. We're going to have about 40 BBC shows being recorded and then filmed for iPlayer. Actually, this sorry, this next weekend, um, I would make that a regular feature.
I would have shows happening every month at least. So you're training up people in live events, filming live events, sound engineers. Um, I would also have studios that are bookable and, uh, open to people who are training. And so we can develop skills as well. But I think what's really important is it's not just giving people more work experience, it's actually giving people job opportunities. So I think, yeah, that's what we'd like to do. We'd like to have Indies working there.
We'd like to have studios. And I think it's really important that the I mean, we we don't have this in Sheffield actually, we don't have this in South Yorkshire. But you can't be what you can't see. And um, I think in London you can walk past broadcasting House and kind of think I'd love to work there. I could see myself working there. Um, but we need those places up and down the UK where it's accessible, where you can walk in.
I mean, you know, next weekend we're going to have Greg James walking around Sheffield and I saw two lads from Barnsley actually, uh, the first year that Greg came and they came up to him and they didn't know he was going to be there. And they asked him to record some radio jingles for their for their college radio show. Now, where they wouldn't get that opportunity otherwise. So we have to have talent there and we have to have opportunities.
11:19
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Yeah. Just to sort of touch on the sort of cluster, um, sort of scenario, um, the, the festival that year sort of producing I think is amazing. I think that's going to sort of generate and help that sort of ecosystem. You're based in Sheffield. So my question is, are you seeing, and I think you elaborated slightly, are you seeing any sort of rival companies or, you know, essentially collaboration really sometimes depending on how you look at it?But are you seeing, um, other companies, other sort of new versions of your organisation setting up in general?
11:20
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
No, no, frankly, and I think that's because, uh, there isn't the commissioning power there. So I took the decision to move my company there. But there are incentives really for other companies to move to, to the region yet. I think that can be helped by, as we talked about BBC commissioning power, but also by incentives from the combined authority. And I think that's what we're talking about here is if we took over a site which was partly funded by the combined authority, and had Steve and I talked about the importance of having BBC and the confidence that gives other people to move in, then other companies would move.
If they if there was work there, there needs to be work for companies to move. Um, so, so yeah, I think that's really important in terms of collaboration. Look, um, you know, we talked about the blurring of the lines, um, adolescence was produced in Sheffield by Warp Films, an incredible company who we have a really strong relationship with. And we're talking constantly about exploiting IP and, and opportunities to work together. And the BBC have cottoned on to that. There are, there are there's another production company called Smoke Trailing in Sheffield, which is doing amazing work.
So yeah, not enough, frankly. But that's because the conditions haven't been created for that.
If they if there was work there, there needs to be work for companies to move. Um, so, so yeah, I think that's really important in terms of collaboration. Look, um, you know, we talked about the blurring of the lines, um, adolescence was produced in Sheffield by Warp Films, an incredible company who we have a really strong relationship with. And we're talking constantly about exploiting IP and, and opportunities to work together. And the BBC have cottoned on to that. There are, there are there's another production company called Smoke Trailing in Sheffield, which is doing amazing work.
So yeah, not enough, frankly. But that's because the conditions haven't been created for that.
11:23
11:23
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Chair, thanks very much. I want to get you out of here by 11 because it's boiling. So if we can keep our answers nice and pithy, if we can, please. Thank you. Thank you, chair, and good morning. Um, the government's green paper said um it would look to maximise the potential of British IP. Um including how BBC commercial works with the independent production sector. Um and it also said that it wants to empower BBC studios to continue to grow.
So I think it's a question for all of you. Do you see, uh, BBC Studios as competition or as a potential partner?And Nigel.
So I think it's a question for all of you. Do you see, uh, BBC Studios as competition or as a potential partner?And Nigel.
11:25
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think it's both, um, and, you know, it's a collaborative partner for many of our members in relation to, to co-productions. Um, but it is also, it is also in competition. Um, and I think that, uh, and I think the important thing about that competition is that it is fair that it is open, that it is transparent and that we can, you know, that we can, that we can, we can see from the outside that where decisions are made, they are made entirely on the kind of merit of the production and the merit of the IP, um, rather than in any sense sort of favouring favouring BBC in-house production.
But you know, as I said at the beginning, I think the trend, the trend in production, particularly in relation to the SBS over the next few years, is definitely going to be towards more, more collaborative endeavour because the resources are not there for the broadcasters themselves to pay for it all. So they are going to be increasingly reliant upon working more closely with, with, with, with other producers in order to make things happen.
But you know, as I said at the beginning, I think the trend, the trend in production, particularly in relation to the SBS over the next few years, is definitely going to be towards more, more collaborative endeavour because the resources are not there for the broadcasters themselves to pay for it all. So they are going to be increasingly reliant upon working more closely with, with, with, with other producers in order to make things happen.
11:26
11:26
11:26
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
You know, a healthy BBC Studios that creates great IP that sees a return on investment. That means that there's more money that goes into BBC funding as a result of that is is to be welcomed. If that can if that can happen, the I think that, you know, in terms of growth, there's that element, but there's also the element of growth that comes from having a healthy PSB ecosystem where the BBC is a commissioning body. I mean, this is an example in terms of the amount of money that is going in to the PSB ecology, but then also in terms of growing jobs and growing great shows for export to other territories.
Um, so Banerjee's invested over £100 million over the last three years in content for the SBS. So the SBS commissioned their show. This is mainly drama, but they commissioned a show and they will be paying less than half of the cost per hour of that show. And then we will put the rest of that money in. We take a risk in terms of putting that money in, and that risk is then based on the idea that we sell it across the world, and we might have a return on investment.
It takes a long time to get that return on investment. So having that PSB, it comes back to the point I was making at the beginning that PSB ecology in terms of IP retention, and then in terms of being able to share, you know, the BBC also shares, you know, 20% of the money that comes back into Banerjee for paying back. All of that goes to the BBC. They have a share in the, um, in the revenue. So you have a long tail of value, which if you're making shows in, you know, if you're blue lights and that is a Scottish STV company I believe in, in Northern Ireland.
And if you've got Peaky Blinders in, in Birmingham, then what you have is that that spend is happening in that region. So all of that extra money is going. So in terms of IP retention and in terms of growing jobs and growing value, um, you know, the government identified the creative industries as a growth sector. This is a huge opportunity. Just one quick thing on that is that when you do that, when you invest extra money into your programme, you have to borrow that money.
You know, that money is due. And it's very strange that it's quite hard to get UK banks to do that. So we go to Bank of Montreal, we go to we go to um banks that are not in the UK. And the idea of there being a creative industries, um resource for us, I mean it's, it's quite risk free, I'm not selling it to you, but it's quite risk free in terms of um, the ability to see that return on investment and the interest payment, but it would be a real benefit to, to drama companies.
Um, so Banerjee's invested over £100 million over the last three years in content for the SBS. So the SBS commissioned their show. This is mainly drama, but they commissioned a show and they will be paying less than half of the cost per hour of that show. And then we will put the rest of that money in. We take a risk in terms of putting that money in, and that risk is then based on the idea that we sell it across the world, and we might have a return on investment.
It takes a long time to get that return on investment. So having that PSB, it comes back to the point I was making at the beginning that PSB ecology in terms of IP retention, and then in terms of being able to share, you know, the BBC also shares, you know, 20% of the money that comes back into Banerjee for paying back. All of that goes to the BBC. They have a share in the, um, in the revenue. So you have a long tail of value, which if you're making shows in, you know, if you're blue lights and that is a Scottish STV company I believe in, in Northern Ireland.
And if you've got Peaky Blinders in, in Birmingham, then what you have is that that spend is happening in that region. So all of that extra money is going. So in terms of IP retention and in terms of growing jobs and growing value, um, you know, the government identified the creative industries as a growth sector. This is a huge opportunity. Just one quick thing on that is that when you do that, when you invest extra money into your programme, you have to borrow that money.
You know, that money is due. And it's very strange that it's quite hard to get UK banks to do that. So we go to Bank of Montreal, we go to we go to um banks that are not in the UK. And the idea of there being a creative industries, um resource for us, I mean it's, it's quite risk free, I'm not selling it to you, but it's quite risk free in terms of um, the ability to see that return on investment and the interest payment, but it would be a real benefit to, to drama companies.
11:31
11:31
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Yeah. So the relationship with studios from our point of view is quite limited. I mean, they do commission content. So we could, we could work with them to commission a show, but we just haven't had the need to do that yet. Um, they monetize podcasts, BBC podcasts, ex UK. So if you're listening to a BBC podcast in on your on holiday in France, you'll get an advert and that's sold by BBC Studios. There was Tim Davie tried to float the idea of um selling.
Ads in podcasts in the UK, which was met with a lot of. Skepticism by many people in the, in, in my industry, I have to say, I think long term I'm slightly more open minded about that because I think that, you know, realistically, with budgets slashing further down the line, we will have to look at a model where some, you know, maybe entertainment podcast content is monetized partly by ads. Um, as long as the production company is, is, is, is benefiting from that as well.
Ads in podcasts in the UK, which was met with a lot of. Skepticism by many people in the, in, in my industry, I have to say, I think long term I'm slightly more open minded about that because I think that, you know, realistically, with budgets slashing further down the line, we will have to look at a model where some, you know, maybe entertainment podcast content is monetized partly by ads. Um, as long as the production company is, is, is, is benefiting from that as well.
11:33
11:33
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I mean, the BBC, when you have, if you have a show like SAS Rogue Heroes, um, because it's a BBC show, it's Steve Knight, the ability to then, you know, in terms of the deficit financing that I was talking about, the risk that you take is lower because the BBC brand is so strong. So if you go to the US and say, this has been commissioned by the BBC, that is a puts another sort of quality mark on it. And also the way in which the BBC.
Uh, broadcasters across the world look at performance on the BBC. If a show has done well on the BBC, that data is gold dust in terms of. So it's really, um, how the BBC brand ex UK can build in terms of association with, you know, if you look at traitors and the way that that's moving across the world, it's obviously it's not British IP, but it was the British version that made that show the global success. So I think talking about brand BBC and sharing that across the world, whether you're working with the BBC or for the BBC, is essential because it's just it's a fantastic value added.
Thank you.
Uh, broadcasters across the world look at performance on the BBC. If a show has done well on the BBC, that data is gold dust in terms of. So it's really, um, how the BBC brand ex UK can build in terms of association with, you know, if you look at traitors and the way that that's moving across the world, it's obviously it's not British IP, but it was the British version that made that show the global success. So I think talking about brand BBC and sharing that across the world, whether you're working with the BBC or for the BBC, is essential because it's just it's a fantastic value added.
Thank you.
11:35
11:35
11:35
11:36
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Um. I think that the you know it depends what it wants to do with the money. I think that, you know any. Anything that supports the BBC's ability to, to, you know, monetize content across its platforms is, has got to be, has got to be useful. But as I say, you know, all of this has got to be sort of governed by fair principles and, and, and, and elements of transparency so that we can see, you know, how this money is being spent.
And if it's being done in a way that benefits all the different partners in the BBC world, not, not not just, you know, the BBC itself.
And if it's being done in a way that benefits all the different partners in the BBC world, not, not not just, you know, the BBC itself.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think I mean, we've invested significantly £30 million in new production companies in the last few years. And that, um, that's their jobs. So you invest that money. If you think about the BBC increasing its borrowing limit, that borrowing will be going into creating jobs. Because what do you do with it?You spend that money on people to come up with ideas to get new shows away. So I think it's fantastic. Definitely support it.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Um, yeah. Patrick, just something that the chair talked about the, the sort of regulatory proposed thing. It's not fully fully enforced, but for bad behavior, just, um, Banijay productions has come across our desk when the whole Greg Wallis master chef thing happened. I just wondered, do you think it's satisfactory that often there's two complaints procedures in parallel. And also to the average viewer, they just see that as the BBC they can't differentiate, whereas so much stuff is made by independent production companies now.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah. I think that the I mean, the BBC obviously has a robust complaints procedure. And then you can't really complain against a production company as a as a viewer. I mean, you complain about them as if you are a, you know, if you're an employee. Um, but in terms of, are you saying in terms of the HR processes within the BBC and the.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
But the um I would say that, you know, we are an independent. Producers, we have our duties and responsibilities and legal responsibilities to our staff that work for the, for us as producers. And I think that, you know, lessons that have been learned through that process are that in terms in terms of the history, you know, historically, the communication between production companies and producers and, um, and the BBC weren't as good. The, over the last five, ten years, they've become much stronger. I think it's really hard for us.
I think as producers, it was completely right that it was it was Banerjee that did that investigation that instructed the third party solicitors because it was an investigation into one of our shows. So and I think the BBC were quite clear at the time that this was a Banerjee investigation. I wouldn't I think it's quite hard. I mean, you know, with say that the having a standards authority, which is overarching and is some a way of being able to, to be the figurehead, which is across the producer and the broadcaster, that that could be a way in which we evolve.
That is hopefully less complicated for the audience to understand.
I think as producers, it was completely right that it was it was Banerjee that did that investigation that instructed the third party solicitors because it was an investigation into one of our shows. So and I think the BBC were quite clear at the time that this was a Banerjee investigation. I wouldn't I think it's quite hard. I mean, you know, with say that the having a standards authority, which is overarching and is some a way of being able to, to be the figurehead, which is across the producer and the broadcaster, that that could be a way in which we evolve.
That is hopefully less complicated for the audience to understand.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I don't think so. I think there are cuts across the BBC. When I was at BBC news, I, I created the BBC news podcast division. So I was working in radio, but then, um, I sort of saw an opportunity to that, you know, there was a trend emerging in podcasts in 2017 and we launched a podcast called Brexitcast with Chris Mason and Laura Kuenssberg and Katya Adler and Adam Fleming, which has now morphed into a whole range of podcasts newscasts, which is the BBC s daily daily podcast that goes out on BBC one.
It was a team of just me when I launched it, but it's now a huge division within BBC news and I think that's right. I think it's right that, you know, more people are listening to podcasts increasingly, and it's right that the BBC diverts investment into new mediums. And I think the BBC constantly has to innovate. And cuts are hard, but sometimes they are an opportunity to, to, to look at where the audience is and where it's best to prioritise. Um, so look, I think, um, news is incredibly important.
As BBC news journalist for 14 years travel the world I with the BBC and I know just about the soft power and the importance and the doors that opens for you. And what just a huge, um. You know, important thing it is for, for us as a country. So I would not like to see BBC news decimated further, but I think when it comes to certain, you know, radio programmes, tough choices have to be made. And unfortunately, it can't be the case that every time um, you know, there is a cut mooted that everybody's up in arms.
You know, sometimes I'm afraid like as an industry, as independent producers, advertising revenues are cut. We have to make tough decisions. And the BBC is not exempt from that. But yeah, I hope it does continue to invest in invest in the right areas in BBC news.
It was a team of just me when I launched it, but it's now a huge division within BBC news and I think that's right. I think it's right that, you know, more people are listening to podcasts increasingly, and it's right that the BBC diverts investment into new mediums. And I think the BBC constantly has to innovate. And cuts are hard, but sometimes they are an opportunity to, to, to look at where the audience is and where it's best to prioritise. Um, so look, I think, um, news is incredibly important.
As BBC news journalist for 14 years travel the world I with the BBC and I know just about the soft power and the importance and the doors that opens for you. And what just a huge, um. You know, important thing it is for, for us as a country. So I would not like to see BBC news decimated further, but I think when it comes to certain, you know, radio programmes, tough choices have to be made. And unfortunately, it can't be the case that every time um, you know, there is a cut mooted that everybody's up in arms.
You know, sometimes I'm afraid like as an industry, as independent producers, advertising revenues are cut. We have to make tough decisions. And the BBC is not exempt from that. But yeah, I hope it does continue to invest in invest in the right areas in BBC news.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
So it currently is on a certain level, so the BBC can license third party content for BBC sounds. They will pay you a, you know, a licensing fee to do that. It's not something we've done, but I know some of our peers have done that. Um, look, I think BBC sounds is a, is a, is a great in terms of, I think particularly live. It's fantastic. You know, yesterday with the breaking news here, you just go straight on and click on the live radio and you and you get, you know, you can listen to five live or Aiff or whatever it may be.
Um, I think more could be done tech wise around sort of curation. Um, for to make sure specific audiences are finding and discovering podcasts. I think iPlayer is kind of ahead of, of BBC sounds in that regard. Look, I think the challenge with sounds is that younger audiences and the challenge that the the app has had right from day one is that younger audiences are mostly consuming podcasts on Spotify and YouTube and, and, you know, charter obligation, the BBC is to reach new and young audiences.
So we're seeing the BBC commissioned content for YouTube. It's probably done that a little bit late. It's come on board. But you know, with with the new DG Matt Britain being an Ex-google employee and very pro YouTube, I think I think you're going to see more of that. But yeah, sounds sounds is absolutely you know, it is really important. I think there's, there's going to be some interesting developments around visual podcasts because you're seeing, um, BBC podcasts being filmed.
I've mentioned that some are being filmed at our festival, uh, next week and we're going to have a channel on iPlayer for live podcasts that people can watch. So I think the BBC has got an interesting challenge on how it kind of pushes people watching podcasts back to BBC sounds to, to listen to them. Um, but I think, you know, it, the BBC has to think about 360 commissioning podcasts now are no longer something that just people listen to in their headphones. They are brands, they are live shows, they are merch, they are blogs.
They are newsletters. Um, experiences. So the BBC really has to kind of get together. I think they are smart people at the corporation who are thinking in that way currently.
Um, I think more could be done tech wise around sort of curation. Um, for to make sure specific audiences are finding and discovering podcasts. I think iPlayer is kind of ahead of, of BBC sounds in that regard. Look, I think the challenge with sounds is that younger audiences and the challenge that the the app has had right from day one is that younger audiences are mostly consuming podcasts on Spotify and YouTube and, and, you know, charter obligation, the BBC is to reach new and young audiences.
So we're seeing the BBC commissioned content for YouTube. It's probably done that a little bit late. It's come on board. But you know, with with the new DG Matt Britain being an Ex-google employee and very pro YouTube, I think I think you're going to see more of that. But yeah, sounds sounds is absolutely you know, it is really important. I think there's, there's going to be some interesting developments around visual podcasts because you're seeing, um, BBC podcasts being filmed.
I've mentioned that some are being filmed at our festival, uh, next week and we're going to have a channel on iPlayer for live podcasts that people can watch. So I think the BBC has got an interesting challenge on how it kind of pushes people watching podcasts back to BBC sounds to, to listen to them. Um, but I think, you know, it, the BBC has to think about 360 commissioning podcasts now are no longer something that just people listen to in their headphones. They are brands, they are live shows, they are merch, they are blogs.
They are newsletters. Um, experiences. So the BBC really has to kind of get together. I think they are smart people at the corporation who are thinking in that way currently.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think it's a really, um, I, we in our. Submission to the Green Paper Banijay UK, we were very supportive of the idea of opening up iPlayer because if you. So if you think about the successes. Given all of the challenges that iPlayer is best in class in terms of. As a broadcast video on demand. If you compare it, you know, I Banerjee's um, we've got lots of territories across Europe that I see my French counterparts, Spanish counterpart, German iPlayer is something where they cannot believe the amount of penetration and the numbers that the, the, the iPlayer manages to achieve.
So as a broadcast video on demand, it's often said, you know, that it's it's it's not as good as Netflix or it's not as good as this. It's brilliant. And it can get better, obviously. But when you have that platform, which is in so many houses, the penetration is, is really is really strong. And then you also have the idea of being able to aggregate PSB content on that, on that platform. Um, surely there are ways in which, you know, advertising could still sit around commercial PSB content that's on that platform, but, you know, the threat from, from the other non UK providers in terms of streamers is so huge and significant that you need, I think, to be able to create the biggest platform possible in order to service, um, public service content to the nation.
So as a broadcast video on demand, it's often said, you know, that it's it's it's not as good as Netflix or it's not as good as this. It's brilliant. And it can get better, obviously. But when you have that platform, which is in so many houses, the penetration is, is really is really strong. And then you also have the idea of being able to aggregate PSB content on that, on that platform. Um, surely there are ways in which, you know, advertising could still sit around commercial PSB content that's on that platform, but, you know, the threat from, from the other non UK providers in terms of streamers is so huge and significant that you need, I think, to be able to create the biggest platform possible in order to service, um, public service content to the nation.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I mean, I don't think the other PSB are terribly enthusiastic because they like to have their own, you know, proprietary channels. Um, but to the extent that it maintains and supports, you know, investment and competition between the SBS in terms of commissioning, then, you know, we would encourage that.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think one of the things to be very aware of in that, and Patrick talked about this at the beginning is that, you know, one of the critical sources of, of revenue for producers, for independent producers is the international exploitation of content of their, of their content and their IP. So, you know, it's very important that that wouldn't cut across that set of arrangements where that, where that to be looked at. Um, you know, and again, it would be something that we would have to, you know, talk, talk, talk to BBC about and ensure that there's kind of consistency in the way that the, the rules there applied.
Um, but yeah, it's, I mean, it's the same with effectively the BBC putting content onto YouTube, you know, if it, if it takes away the opportunity to exploit those rights, which is what the independent producers to do on an international basis. And that would be, that would be problematic from our side.
Um, but yeah, it's, I mean, it's the same with effectively the BBC putting content onto YouTube, you know, if it, if it takes away the opportunity to exploit those rights, which is what the independent producers to do on an international basis. And that would be, that would be problematic from our side.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yes. The secondary value that is able to build those shows. So with SAS Rogue Heroes, you've got your BBC licence, your the tariff that they're paying. And then on top of that, the way in which the business case is made for all of this extra investment is that's how much we'll sell the show for in France. That's how much we'll sell the show for in America. So if you know, the streamer model is, you know, one fee pays everything.
And so if you see something like, um, you know, Buccaneers on Apple, which one of our shows, one of our companies makes the forge that is free to air, you know, free to air that is on Apple platforms across the world from day one in terms of the job. So there are no other secondary rights, but then Apple will pay a premium for that show because that is the. So it's just as Nigel says, it's it's how practical that would be because what you would need is to guarantee that there is at least the same level of income, um, in order to justify the cost of that.
And so if you see something like, um, you know, Buccaneers on Apple, which one of our shows, one of our companies makes the forge that is free to air, you know, free to air that is on Apple platforms across the world from day one in terms of the job. So there are no other secondary rights, but then Apple will pay a premium for that show because that is the. So it's just as Nigel says, it's it's how practical that would be because what you would need is to guarantee that there is at least the same level of income, um, in order to justify the cost of that.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thanks very much, gentlemen. Thank you very much for your time. We will let you escape into the balmy weather that is outside. I'm grateful for all your evidence today, and we are now going to take a very quick break while we allow you to flee. And we bring in our next panel. Thank you very much. Order, order!Welcome to our second panel this morning. We're now going to hear from David Abraham, CEO of Wonder Studios, from Helen Jay, who is a researcher at Westminster University, and from Dylan Sparks, who is the UK director of Reset Tech.
Welcome to all of you. I'm going to pass to Rupa Huq for the first question, please.
Welcome to all of you. I'm going to pass to Rupa Huq for the first question, please.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Thanks. Yeah. First one, I think for Dylan, um, in the previous charter, the BBC led the way with iPlayer and with R&D and the digital switchover. But in the current charter, it seems to have sort of lost its lead in new platforms. And technology used to be genuinely innovatory. Why do you think that is and can it be restored?
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
So I think, um, the first thing to mention, which I think was in, in our Green Paper consultation, is that the, the public purpose on technology and innovation should be brought back. I think we saw good results in the 2007 charter with the iPlayer iPlayer creation. I think we've um, I think it's not a controversial thing to say that we're operating in a totally different environment with the rapid technological advances and the BBC, like other broadcasters, has to compete for audiences and meet them where they are.
And so we think that by bringing in a a public purpose on technology and innovation would help and force the BBC to meet some of those challenges a bit more ambitiously. Um, and I also think that, um, it should be separate from the growth one, because I think the BBC also has a role to play in making sure that technology is accessible to all. And so it shouldn't just be about growth on the back. It shouldn't just be about technology in the back end or optimizing for efficiency.
It should be about how can the BBC use technology to reach new audiences?Uh, increase trust at a time when it's in decline?Um, yeah.
And so we think that by bringing in a a public purpose on technology and innovation would help and force the BBC to meet some of those challenges a bit more ambitiously. Um, and I also think that, um, it should be separate from the growth one, because I think the BBC also has a role to play in making sure that technology is accessible to all. And so it shouldn't just be about growth on the back. It shouldn't just be about technology in the back end or optimizing for efficiency.
It should be about how can the BBC use technology to reach new audiences?Uh, increase trust at a time when it's in decline?Um, yeah.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
You would support a public purpose. Yeah. Right. And Helen and David, would you agree that the BBC charter should have a proper, defined public purpose on innovation and emerging technologies?Yeah, absolutely. And I think I'll just say that the last charter sort of took place in a context where anything that wasn't content investment, I think, was sort of viewed with suspicious, with suspicion. Um, and was subject to kind of huge lobbying from commercial players saying kind of don't venture too far outside your lane.
I saw somebody write a post on LinkedIn yesterday saying that last time around the charter debate was, how do we stop the BBC from getting too big?And the question now is, is the BBC big enough?And I think that, like in that time, technological landscape is like absolutely shifted. So I welcome that. There's a more positive conversation around the BBC's role in tech innovation this time. And I think there's an opportunity here to reframe the debate around technology away from kind of how do we minimize the bad towards like, what is the positive information environment that we want?We saw last week that the government announced that they were going to ban social media for young people.
I think that is very characteristic of a technology policy in this country that has focused on minimizing harm. Um, rather than asking what does good look like?What are the levers that we have to support good information environments?And public service media is one of those levers that we have. So I would absolutely support that purpose.
I saw somebody write a post on LinkedIn yesterday saying that last time around the charter debate was, how do we stop the BBC from getting too big?And the question now is, is the BBC big enough?And I think that, like in that time, technological landscape is like absolutely shifted. So I welcome that. There's a more positive conversation around the BBC's role in tech innovation this time. And I think there's an opportunity here to reframe the debate around technology away from kind of how do we minimize the bad towards like, what is the positive information environment that we want?We saw last week that the government announced that they were going to ban social media for young people.
I think that is very characteristic of a technology policy in this country that has focused on minimizing harm. Um, rather than asking what does good look like?What are the levers that we have to support good information environments?And public service media is one of those levers that we have. So I would absolutely support that purpose.
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Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
I would agree, um, the BBC and indeed Britain have an incredible tradition of innovation in, in media technology going back over 100 years. To, to give credit to the BBC, they innovated and led the way in streaming. Uh, and they continue to focus their resources on tech innovation in terms of how AI, for example, is affecting the work streams of production. So there's lots of good work going on. The gap, I think is really in the ecosystem thinking, uh, we're keeping up with, uh, Silicon Valley in terms of tech deployment, but we're not thinking systemically about what the future ecosystem might look like.
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
You know, I don't think I don't think the public purpose itself has to be incredibly prescriptive. But I think just signaling intent from government about its expectations of the BBC to innovate, to think outside the box and to make sure that it's a priority going forward would be positive. I don't think you need a treatise for each public purpose. I think in the past it's been very short and punchy, and I think that's probably a model to learn from because, as we know, technology changes.
So giving an incredibly prescriptive public purpose now might not be relevant in in seven years. But if you keep it broad and high level, I think it will stand the test of time.
So giving an incredibly prescriptive public purpose now might not be relevant in in seven years. But if you keep it broad and high level, I think it will stand the test of time.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
I think that's I think that's right. I think you don't want to be too prescriptive about the types of technology or the specific technologies. I think it you know, as Dylan says, I think that kind of ties you to something that ends up being outdated very quickly. Um, I personally would emphasize the sort of technology in the public interest. Um, you know, perhaps there are kind of questions around how that reconciles with the sort of growth. I think it's not mutually exclusive, but I think for me, the sort of technology in the public interest is whether real gap is and is why you would ask the BBC to play a role in this space rather than other kind of commercial, um, players.
And I guess, you know, a purpose can only do so much. You also need to fund it accordingly. And be clear, you know, I think it's really important to sort of set out and say, we have a mandate. We have an expectation that you should do this, but you also need to fund it to deliver it. Otherwise, it's just an empty purpose. I think.
And I guess, you know, a purpose can only do so much. You also need to fund it accordingly. And be clear, you know, I think it's really important to sort of set out and say, we have a mandate. We have an expectation that you should do this, but you also need to fund it to deliver it. Otherwise, it's just an empty purpose. I think.
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Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
The wall of capital that's hitting American in AI is going to lead to a huge battle between the main AI players. So the question, I think, for the UK and for the BBC is what future it wants to determine for itself in that future ecosystem. Uh, the consumer experience of discovering content today in the UK and around the world isn't an end state. And so we should be deciding whether or not we can frame and define what that ecosystem might look like in the national interest.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Um, I think that there are other ways that the BBC could support growth. I mean, you've heard in the last panel about the BBC's contribution to the creative industries, potentially it could do similar for sort of digital economy. So I think that there, there's a wider context in which the BBC can support growth outside of tech and innovation. Um, as I say, I think for me, I don't think growth and public interest are mutually exclusive. They can support each other, but I would want to have a, um, yeah, a, any kind of wording around charter purposes to sort of emphasize that public interest as well as growth.
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Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
Project log in its current form is a piece of blue sky thinking. It's been developed independently. Um, to imagine what the future ecosystem for UK media, public service media might look like at the point at which digital the next digital switchover occurs. I was involved in the, earlier iterations of where we went to analog and digital. There were national priorities that were set, uh, over a decade long period to ensure inclusion was delivered and the new technology rolled out. We currently are contemplating, as per the Green Paper this morning, a digital switchover in less than a decade.
But we haven't defined as a country what ecosystem is going to replace that. So Project Log just simply asks that question, not the questions which seem to be preoccupying the broadcasters currently, which is how much of the content should be shared with YouTube or meta or anthropic. Um, it's, it's asking the question from a different starting point. What ecosystem do we think best serves the key principles of public service media in a world that's going to be driven by AI?And do we have the resources?And I would argue, yes, we do within the UK to at least reframe that as a brief to ourselves.
So project log, in a sense, is a brief for a technological solution which hasn't yet been invented. But as per prior revolutions in UK media, whether it was the development of radio live broadcast, HDTV, Freeview, they were. They started as briefs and technologists then answered that brief. At the moment we haven't written the brief for the national interest. We are simply, uh, as it were, going along with the reality that all of the content is going to be consumed by IPTV.
But we haven't asked ourselves what the fundamental consequences are of that. On the sustainability of the PSB system.
But we haven't defined as a country what ecosystem is going to replace that. So Project Log just simply asks that question, not the questions which seem to be preoccupying the broadcasters currently, which is how much of the content should be shared with YouTube or meta or anthropic. Um, it's, it's asking the question from a different starting point. What ecosystem do we think best serves the key principles of public service media in a world that's going to be driven by AI?And do we have the resources?And I would argue, yes, we do within the UK to at least reframe that as a brief to ourselves.
So project log, in a sense, is a brief for a technological solution which hasn't yet been invented. But as per prior revolutions in UK media, whether it was the development of radio live broadcast, HDTV, Freeview, they were. They started as briefs and technologists then answered that brief. At the moment we haven't written the brief for the national interest. We are simply, uh, as it were, going along with the reality that all of the content is going to be consumed by IPTV.
But we haven't asked ourselves what the fundamental consequences are of that. On the sustainability of the PSB system.
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Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
In my opinion, if you've got nearly a decade and you get on with it and you get the brief into the system and you put some proper firepower behind it nationally, and it's and it's matched with a commitment amongst the public service broadcasters, you can get a very long way very quickly. Um, we are talking about hundreds of millions of pounds, not tens, but that's, that is the amount of money that's currently being spent on the current infrastructure. So it's about redeploying resources with a very clearly defined mandate and doing an organising at the national level.
As a former broadcaster, I know that the remits of each of the public service broadcasters limits their ability to imagine a reinvention of their own ecosystem, because the mandates of the boards and the governance of each of those institutions is defined by the current system. So we have to take ourselves out of the system and ask ourselves and frame the question differently.
As a former broadcaster, I know that the remits of each of the public service broadcasters limits their ability to imagine a reinvention of their own ecosystem, because the mandates of the boards and the governance of each of those institutions is defined by the current system. So we have to take ourselves out of the system and ask ourselves and frame the question differently.
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Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
There are several, uh, clearly, uh, financial resources, the governance structure needs to be clear. There have been examples in the past where the broadcasters have collaborated successfully together. One thinks of Freeview and more recently, YouView and freely. Um, so the governance structures of cooperation need to be clearly defined and they will clearly have to be set by government. Um, and then time frames critically, an interplay between the academic and technology sector of the UK and the media sector needs to be elevated.
Currently we're sitting in different channels not collaborating in the way that previous generations did. It was scientists that cracked the distribution of live radio and live television. It was engineers that did that in collaboration with the institutions that existed at that time. So we've got to create a new kind of partnership between, uh, the different public bodies and stakeholders in this game to operate at a higher level of collaboration.
Currently we're sitting in different channels not collaborating in the way that previous generations did. It was scientists that cracked the distribution of live radio and live television. It was engineers that did that in collaboration with the institutions that existed at that time. So we've got to create a new kind of partnership between, uh, the different public bodies and stakeholders in this game to operate at a higher level of collaboration.
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Yeah. So I think, um. Sounds great. I think our thinking was probably a bit more, a bit more limited. Just thinking about if you look at where people get their news today, it's, you know, Ofcom report every year that the, the percentages about where people are getting their news from is from social media and non traditional news platforms. So the way we've been thinking about this is coming up with innovative partnership models where, for example, the BBC could make sure that all news and audio content is distributed widely on third party platforms as a way to attract, uh, audience members to, um, iPlayer or.
BBC products. But I think that has to come with a rethinking of the funding model, I think, um, the licence fee as it stands is in decline. Fewer and fewer people are paying it, which means that there's less money to invest in content. And it's also a very outdated model. On the one hand, we're talking about a new public purpose on technology and innovation. But on the other hand, the licence fee model is is from another age where it was literally a licence to operate a TV.
But if you look at where so many of us get our information or entertainment, it's not from a TV, it's from devices which are in our pockets. Backpacks and and things like that. So I think re-imagining the licence fee as an audio visual fee that brings more people into the scope of the licence fee. But if you divert, if you are clever about it and, and diversify funding in sustainable ways, you could also lower the licence fee. So while broadening the scope of the amount of people who would be paying it, for example, currently if you watch Netflix or YouTube, you're obviously out of scope.
But is that something that should be looked at as a way to, uh, ensure that the financial sustainability of the BBC going forward, while also acknowledging the, the new kind of, uh. News, ecology and ecosystem that we live in today.
BBC products. But I think that has to come with a rethinking of the funding model, I think, um, the licence fee as it stands is in decline. Fewer and fewer people are paying it, which means that there's less money to invest in content. And it's also a very outdated model. On the one hand, we're talking about a new public purpose on technology and innovation. But on the other hand, the licence fee model is is from another age where it was literally a licence to operate a TV.
But if you look at where so many of us get our information or entertainment, it's not from a TV, it's from devices which are in our pockets. Backpacks and and things like that. So I think re-imagining the licence fee as an audio visual fee that brings more people into the scope of the licence fee. But if you divert, if you are clever about it and, and diversify funding in sustainable ways, you could also lower the licence fee. So while broadening the scope of the amount of people who would be paying it, for example, currently if you watch Netflix or YouTube, you're obviously out of scope.
But is that something that should be looked at as a way to, uh, ensure that the financial sustainability of the BBC going forward, while also acknowledging the, the new kind of, uh. News, ecology and ecosystem that we live in today.
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Just a quick one, David. I was interested in what you said about bringing the broadcasters and the engineers and the scientists together. Um, and when in the early days of the BBC, there was probably a kind of shared public interest or a shared kind of public interest ethos that drove that. Do you think we still have that in the 2020s and 2030s?
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Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
Yes, I think we do. And I think this meeting this morning is a reflection of that. Um, but I think where we're framing the debate at the moment is putting up the drawbridge regulation. This morning's green paper. One can see all of those things being important. But to my mind, you know, regulation without innovation will ultimately lead to stagnation. So we need to think more positively. And having worked in America myself, I know that Americans respond to innovation.
If British innovation is brought to the table. In the conversation with Big Tech, it's you. At the conversation at a different level at the moment, we're tending towards, uh, doing things which they are going to circumvent or do their best to circumvent. And certainly they've said they intend to circumvent.
If British innovation is brought to the table. In the conversation with Big Tech, it's you. At the conversation at a different level at the moment, we're tending towards, uh, doing things which they are going to circumvent or do their best to circumvent. And certainly they've said they intend to circumvent.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
When you when the British government commissioned a warship, they do. So, uh, leaving gaps for the technology that hasn't yet been developed to go in the relevant spaces because, you know, the commissioning period for building the ship is longer than the, you know, the tech that goes in it. That's effectively what you're talking about, right?
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Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
That's a brilliant analogy. Um, thanks. You know, I've worked with technology teams throughout my career and quite often the job of the, the board and the leadership is to define the problem. Here is the problem we're trying to solve. Um, and. Getting behind and frankly, having some fun with coming up with a whole load of different potential responses to that. So much of the infrastructure that we're currently deploying in the IPTV space, whether it's cloud technology, the search, the data functions, they are quite generic.
There's there's no real black box. And indeed, if you just look at the importance of DeepMind to Google today, and DeepMind was formed by people who grew up watching public service broadcasting and, and, and being educated in the UK that we have the raw potential in this country to crack this problem. The way that could be world beating. We don't seem to be setting ourselves that as a goal.
There's there's no real black box. And indeed, if you just look at the importance of DeepMind to Google today, and DeepMind was formed by people who grew up watching public service broadcasting and, and, and being educated in the UK that we have the raw potential in this country to crack this problem. The way that could be world beating. We don't seem to be setting ourselves that as a goal.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Add to that. Just very quickly, I think it's sort of thinking about these things in the round is what I would sort of be thinking about kind of multi-pronged strategy, sort of, you know, give public service media a kind of clear mandate to, to, to invest in technology, regulate the platforms, ask things of the platforms. And maybe we'll come on to discussions around kind of prominence and what that looks like. But also, yeah, invest in British technology and be confident and be ambitious about what it is that British technology can can do.
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Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
Thank you very much. So in this inquiry, we've kept hearing this new phrase, public service algorithm. Most recently I was also appears in this morning's hot off the press publication, where the government says that, um, they are supportive of PSM providers developing algorithms in line with public service values, striking the right balance between offering audiences personalised services while ensuring they're exposed to a wide range, etc.. Um, so it got me to thinking like, what do we really mean by a public service algorithm or any algorithm?And I think there are two things you need to think about with an algorithm in a media sense.
The first is what data you use. So whether you are just looking at basic demographics of the person using it and context, a program like this is this. Or if you try and get more complicated into psychographic profiling and behaviour and tracking people across the web and making lookalike audiences and all those kinds of things. So that's one group of group of stuff, what data you use. And then the second group of stuff is what you're optimizing for. So is it to maximize retention time on the site engagement or something else?So I don't know.
I don't know which one of you to direct this to. Um, but I'm inviting a critique of that model to say, well, what is that?Or what is missing, but also a crucial question. To what extent does a public service algorithm already exist in the iPlayer in other, uh, PS public service broadcasters, uh, platforms and so on?
The first is what data you use. So whether you are just looking at basic demographics of the person using it and context, a program like this is this. Or if you try and get more complicated into psychographic profiling and behaviour and tracking people across the web and making lookalike audiences and all those kinds of things. So that's one group of group of stuff, what data you use. And then the second group of stuff is what you're optimizing for. So is it to maximize retention time on the site engagement or something else?So I don't know.
I don't know which one of you to direct this to. Um, but I'm inviting a critique of that model to say, well, what is that?Or what is missing, but also a crucial question. To what extent does a public service algorithm already exist in the iPlayer in other, uh, PS public service broadcasters, uh, platforms and so on?
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Um, others chime in. Um, so yeah, public service algorithm I think is, I think is perhaps best understood as sort of shorthand. It's not a literal like single. Here's your algorithm. Um, it refers to kind of approaches to recommendations and discovery that are shaped by public value objectives rather than commercial ones. So in practice that involves a combination of yes algorithmic systems and what goes into that, but also lots of things that might sit outside that algorithm piece, human editorial judgment and curation, transparent data practice.
Like there are lots of things that might go alongside.
Like there are lots of things that might go alongside.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Not exactly. But I think that kind of what is what a public service approach is to algorithms. There's different ways you do it. Absolutely. You're right. I think the key difference is that commercial algorithms are built for to optimize for attention, for engagement. But sometimes that means just providing kind of more of the same. And that is different to the role of public service media who are there to provide breadth and serendipity and new ideas.
So what's the equivalent of that kind of like hammocking that we've had in broadcast scheduling, where you kind of expose people to a broader palette of content, to the question of like, does it already exist?So there are already experiments in this space. So VRT in Belgium, they have developed something called a taste broadening algorithm, which is specifically designed to expose you to a wider range of genres. Um, Georgina, born in UCL, has developed something called commonality metric, which is about actually what you expose people in common, like a kind of common set of categories that sort of shared cultural exposure.
And then, and then there's something called a bridging algorithm, which is about kind of bringing people together. But these are experiments, and these are not something that kind of like widespread.
So what's the equivalent of that kind of like hammocking that we've had in broadcast scheduling, where you kind of expose people to a broader palette of content, to the question of like, does it already exist?So there are already experiments in this space. So VRT in Belgium, they have developed something called a taste broadening algorithm, which is specifically designed to expose you to a wider range of genres. Um, Georgina, born in UCL, has developed something called commonality metric, which is about actually what you expose people in common, like a kind of common set of categories that sort of shared cultural exposure.
And then, and then there's something called a bridging algorithm, which is about kind of bringing people together. But these are experiments, and these are not something that kind of like widespread.
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Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
But yeah, when when people talk in a, you know, an at scale context about a public service algorithm, what do they mean they're adding because the iPlayer does have an algorithm, it may be a really basic algorithm, but it definitely is an algorithm that says that when the children go on it and they click kids, they get a certain set of content that is not shown when an adult does and an adult does. If they've just been watching blue lights, they will be recommended. Other things like blue lights.
So what do we mean?Do we mean we're evolving this by tracking people through third party cookies and serving things up because people like you like things like this, or what do we mean?
So what do we mean?Do we mean we're evolving this by tracking people through third party cookies and serving things up because people like you like things like this, or what do we mean?
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
So I guess the question is, are you pointing people to just what they might click on normally, or are you going to expose them to a wider range of content in different ways?So a wide range of genres, a wide range of different types of programming that's really, you know, that kind of diversity. That's really what you're talking about.
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Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
So it's not really about the data used. It is about the what you're controlling or what you're optimizing for, which is some variety, not just time spent. Yeah. So that leads on to another question. Why don't we let the punter make their own choice?Like in advance and say, thank you very much, BBC or whoever you are for deciding what would be good for me. I think this would be good for me. And probably actually, when you do that in a cool setting, rather like with social media, if you ask people, do you want to spend your whole life on Twitter looking at people beating each other up?Generally they say, no, I would like to find some more interesting things.
So should we. Is an algorithm really what we want, or do we want a kind of pre-set profile that I can decide, show me stuff like this and I can just, I could decide the mix between things that appeal to, you know, like what I've already seen or something new that I'd be exposed to. And maybe I need to think, I need to know something about news and what's going on in the world as well.
So should we. Is an algorithm really what we want, or do we want a kind of pre-set profile that I can decide, show me stuff like this and I can just, I could decide the mix between things that appeal to, you know, like what I've already seen or something new that I'd be exposed to. And maybe I need to think, I need to know something about news and what's going on in the world as well.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
I think giving people more control, exactly. As you've just articulated, I think there is definitely like that. Like we know the audiences would like that. That feels like, yeah, the more that you can empower people to make their own choices, that feels like a trajectory that would support. Yeah, that would be positive.
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Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
I guess. I guess you've sort of got a sliding scale, gray scale thing where on the one hand, you've got perfectly personalized algorithms and on the other end you've got BBC one, and in the middle, the more you have more channels, the closer you are getting to something which is personalized to this individual. So you have whatever it is now seven different absolute radio channels appealing to slightly. All the BBC radio channels have. They all seem to almost all have their own like little sub segment thing going on.
I've been boring the rest of my committee compadres during this inquiry by banging on about like, why is no one making the argument for channels?
I've been boring the rest of my committee compadres during this inquiry by banging on about like, why is no one making the argument for channels?
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Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
And you know, we talk about the value of having some human curation alongside the machine. What's wrong with channels?And in a world where we pay people the whole time to make our lives easier, by taking, by stopping us having to make decisions ourselves. Why is it that in this part of the economy and society, nobody's kind of trying to make that work?
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