Justice and Home Affairs Committee
Tuesday 23rd June 2026
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10:46
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Anything you'd like to add?Just in just in addition that I think Tom has covered that quite well, would bypass the governor and would be able to escalate problems that they didn't think perhaps the governor was taking seriously. And the. To give you some level of assurance, I think, um, I think one one of the problems that we face is that the Ministry of Justice and Hmpps are sort of disjointed slightly. And so whilst some of the concerns might come through, they'll end up through the MoJ, the Ministry of Justice line rather than the Hmpps line.
And sometimes that can sort of cause some confusion, um sort of an alignment if you like. Thank you very much.
And sometimes that can sort of cause some confusion, um sort of an alignment if you like. Thank you very much.
10:46
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Let me just pick that up before we move on to the next issue. Um, because this lack of alignment between MoJ and Hmpps you've referred to, but you've also referred to the fact that there's a whole stack of policies on a wide range of issues and that from time to time, they might be contradictory. I mean, can we just be a bit clearer on that?What assessment has been made of the contradictions, for instance, within policies that relate to fire safety with other policies that might be conflicting?Can you give us some specific examples?
10:47
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So I don't think we'd be best placed to do that. But I think the way policy is made and ratified within Hmpps requires a sort of senior sign off at, um, you know, sort of senior management level, um, Rs two and above kind of level in Hmpps. But of course people. The personnel in those roles change fairly regularly. So people don't perhaps always remember the policy that they were consulted on or, you know, they weren't there when a previous policy was consulted.
10:47
10:47
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So I don't think there's a somebody in the whole system, not a single individual. I think there will be a number of people who have head of policy in their title, who look at a subset of those and are probably doing a reasonable job of making sure the policy matches up within their remit, but not a person.
10:48
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10:48
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Right. Can I just then ask you a second risk?Because you have said, um. And I just want to pick you up on this. You have said that you acknowledge that the staff working in prison, a large number of them are relatively new. That's hardly surprising when a lot of the people who leave leave after less than one year. So we're well, from our previous report, we're well aware of the staffing issues within prisons, but we're equally well aware of the overcrowding that still exists in prisons.
So my question to you is, do you believe that all of the regulations, the rules, the guidance and everything else in relation to fire safety is written in the in that context, or is it assuming a well staffed prison with experienced officers and so on?
So my question to you is, do you believe that all of the regulations, the rules, the guidance and everything else in relation to fire safety is written in the in that context, or is it assuming a well staffed prison with experienced officers and so on?
10:49
10:49
10:49
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think that's absolutely right. And, you know, the example that Tom gave earlier in terms of, um, just, you know, the basic evacuation type work where, where we know that happens in some places, but not all when we've spoken to those governors where it's not, oh, it's because of the, it's because of the staffing levels.
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10:50
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Uh, welcome to our, uh. Two speakers. Can I just ask the question about far about training?What training is currently provided to prison staff in relation to fires and fire safety?And really supplementary to that. How do far drills in prison actually work?I wonder if you could answer those questions. Whoever wants to start.
10:51
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So, um, there is a huge variety of different elements of training on fire safety provided to various different prison staff depending on their role and specialism. Um. So, uh, I had a brief look through the online catalogue of fire safety training that was available to staff in the prison service in preparation for this meeting. And, um, I think it runs to about nine pages worth of, um, fire safety courses or elements of fire safety courses. Uh, so there are, there is practical, um, uh, training that's about how to, um, safely or as safely as possible rescue people from a cell when there's a fire in the cell.
Um, there is a variety of other training courses that are around, um, maintenance of fire safety equipment, etc. so I can certainly leave the committee with, you know, that printout. So you can see the range of training that's available in terms of fire drills. So the requirement in the prison service instruction is to um, carry out. A fire drill a fire evacuation drill, basically because it's not a fire fighting drill. This is not someone just saying, I've put the fire out.
This is um, mostly evacuation drills of inhabited buildings. Um, they happen in some prisons. Absolutely. As per the fire safety instruction. Um, and in some prisons they don't where they don't happen. Um that is often due to um availability of um staff on a day to do that safely and effectively because it's a um, a significant change from normal, uh, getting everybody out of a prison wing at once, perhaps into multiple evacuation areas. And that in itself carries risk.
So if you're doing that as a drill, um, you have to be mindful of the risk that, um, risk of violence, for instance, that individual prisoners pose to each other during that process. The risk to staff. Uh, so I think governors are balancing those risks. Um, but I also think it would be fair to say that even where those drills happen, they are happening during times of the day when prisons are best able to respond. So they're happening during daytime when you have staff available to undertake the drill process, they are not happening in the middle of the night.
When you have a handful of staff available to evacuate a wing. And the simple reason that that is the case is because those risks, through lack of supervision and control by prison staff, go up significantly. Um, if you've only got 11 staff in the whole prison and you're evacuating a wing of 200 prisoners, that carries significant risk.
Um, there is a variety of other training courses that are around, um, maintenance of fire safety equipment, etc. so I can certainly leave the committee with, you know, that printout. So you can see the range of training that's available in terms of fire drills. So the requirement in the prison service instruction is to um, carry out. A fire drill a fire evacuation drill, basically because it's not a fire fighting drill. This is not someone just saying, I've put the fire out.
This is um, mostly evacuation drills of inhabited buildings. Um, they happen in some prisons. Absolutely. As per the fire safety instruction. Um, and in some prisons they don't where they don't happen. Um that is often due to um availability of um staff on a day to do that safely and effectively because it's a um, a significant change from normal, uh, getting everybody out of a prison wing at once, perhaps into multiple evacuation areas. And that in itself carries risk.
So if you're doing that as a drill, um, you have to be mindful of the risk that, um, risk of violence, for instance, that individual prisoners pose to each other during that process. The risk to staff. Uh, so I think governors are balancing those risks. Um, but I also think it would be fair to say that even where those drills happen, they are happening during times of the day when prisons are best able to respond. So they're happening during daytime when you have staff available to undertake the drill process, they are not happening in the middle of the night.
When you have a handful of staff available to evacuate a wing. And the simple reason that that is the case is because those risks, through lack of supervision and control by prison staff, go up significantly. Um, if you've only got 11 staff in the whole prison and you're evacuating a wing of 200 prisoners, that carries significant risk.
10:53
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10:54
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10:55
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10:55
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yes. It at night time, it means that, um, you would get the prisoners out of the building so you would prevent death from, you know, the effects of the fire. But the risk that you would be balancing against that is the risk that they will potentially pose to each other, or the risk that you couldn't then get them back into the building when you'd safely, um, extinguish the fire.
10:55
10:55
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Um, so I think that's um that's a difficult balance. Um, I think the extent to which you can rely on, um the sort of built environment. So the fact that on a night prisoners are locked in cells, if a fire is started in a cell, um, it's at least contained in a relatively small area and you could evacuate the prisoners that are um. You know, in the immediate area, fairly, fairly simply. The issue would be one where you end up evacuating a whole accommodation unit.
Um, there has recently been an incident at HMP High Point which happened fortunately during the day where um a whole prison wing, I think about 120 prisoners needed to be evacuated. And that was actually dealt with very quickly, very calmly, but it happened during a point in the day when that could happen effectively. I think if you looked at that same scenario on a night, that would have been far more difficult to do, and the person making the decision to evacuate would be balancing one risk against another.
Um, there has recently been an incident at HMP High Point which happened fortunately during the day where um a whole prison wing, I think about 120 prisoners needed to be evacuated. And that was actually dealt with very quickly, very calmly, but it happened during a point in the day when that could happen effectively. I think if you looked at that same scenario on a night, that would have been far more difficult to do, and the person making the decision to evacuate would be balancing one risk against another.
10:56
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10:57
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10:57
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Mhm. I mean, one of the courses that governors paid close attention to is sort of the, the PP tree training, as we call it, because when you, when you move into a night state, for example, um, 100% of the staff are nights need to be trained in order to work in the prison in case they are needed to, to don the equipment. And so yes, we do monitor those statistics very carefully to ensure that we, we can comply on a night state. Um, and in terms of the overall training experience, um, we've had a number of systems in the past where it's been online, it's recorded online managers can access and can see and staff can also see their own learning path because you can, you could previously add to those.
So staff knew what their journey looked like in terms of what was required for their specific role. So for example, in administration, there might be one element of fire safety, but not the sort of the evacuation part for prisoners. So there's a balance for each different staff group.
So staff knew what their journey looked like in terms of what was required for their specific role. So for example, in administration, there might be one element of fire safety, but not the sort of the evacuation part for prisoners. So there's a balance for each different staff group.
10:58
10:58
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10:59
10:59
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Yes. Can I just bring it back to the powers, um of governors, because you spoke about how the line sometimes bypass the governor and presumably that that works in the other direction as well. And I wanted to ask, you know, do you feel that prison governors currently have the powers that they need to manage fire safety risks effectively in their own prisons and perhaps, you know, an additional follow up question about what additional powers or levers, if needed, um, would, would, would, would be helpful to improve fire safety.
10:59
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So, um, I think governors, well, governors are in control of, um, prioritizing training, for instance, their, uh, in. Control of deploying their staff. Uh, they are not in control of anything that relates to their built environment in terms of maintenance, repair. Um, what happens when a fire alarm system fails, for instance, they are reliant on, um, contracts. Which are managed, uh, outside of the prison. So, um, the estates contract, the facilities management contracts are managed by the MoJ.
Uh, and uh, because they're part of maintaining the built environment, the MoJ um, sort of building stock. And that means that when you get a failure of a piece of infrastructure. So, uh, you know, fire detection system, for instance, fails, then the governor is left with a problem. Um, the way that you might try and deal with that is by increasing the number of patrols. So throwing additional staff at it. Um, but if you've got to the point where you thought that your accommodation, the accommodation, um, that had the failed system was no longer fit for habitation, that is not the governor's decision.
So that is the line manager of governors. So the governors responsibility would be to say um the, the system in building X doesn't work properly. And it is my recommendation to you that you remove X number of um cells from the prison cell certificate. So you reduce the population by X number. And then we'll be able to manage. But that's not their decision.
Uh, and uh, because they're part of maintaining the built environment, the MoJ um, sort of building stock. And that means that when you get a failure of a piece of infrastructure. So, uh, you know, fire detection system, for instance, fails, then the governor is left with a problem. Um, the way that you might try and deal with that is by increasing the number of patrols. So throwing additional staff at it. Um, but if you've got to the point where you thought that your accommodation, the accommodation, um, that had the failed system was no longer fit for habitation, that is not the governor's decision.
So that is the line manager of governors. So the governors responsibility would be to say um the, the system in building X doesn't work properly. And it is my recommendation to you that you remove X number of um cells from the prison cell certificate. So you reduce the population by X number. And then we'll be able to manage. But that's not their decision.
11:01
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
And if I could just push you on that a little bit. I mean that strikes me as being highly unsatisfactory. I mean, how often would you say in your experience that a governor says, you know, puts it higher up the food chain and says, look, we've got a big problem here. How quickly and how often is that actually responded to in reality?
11:01
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Um, so, uh, I think again, that varies. Certainly when we were towards the sort of end of 2024, when prison, uh, population was at an absolute high and, um, we were desperate in HMP to bring every bit of capacity online. A governor who said, I think you need to take these 100 cells off because I don't think the safe was less likely to get, um, a positive response to that suggestion then, uh, periods of time where they have had significant amounts of space because again, it's balancing competing risks.
Um, a prison group director would in essence be saying, no, we have to reduce the capacity. And that means that some people who would have come to prison aren't going to be able to come to prison. And there's some risk in that for the general public. So, um, I think, uh, this is again, a competing risk issue, but that decision is not made in the same place. So the governor would view themselves as the responsible person in terms of fire safety, but they wouldn't be the ultimate decision maker in terms of their, um, their sort of ultimate option to manage fire safety.
So if.
Um, a prison group director would in essence be saying, no, we have to reduce the capacity. And that means that some people who would have come to prison aren't going to be able to come to prison. And there's some risk in that for the general public. So, um, I think, uh, this is again, a competing risk issue, but that decision is not made in the same place. So the governor would view themselves as the responsible person in terms of fire safety, but they wouldn't be the ultimate decision maker in terms of their, um, their sort of ultimate option to manage fire safety.
So if.
11:02
11:02
11:02
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Well, I just wanted on a final supplementary, just to say in your, you know, in the sort of bounds of what is realistic, because obviously we are dealing with a difficult situation. Do you think it would be a much better situation whereby the governor had full control over that, or do you think that's just not something that is really deliverable in reality?
11:02
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So I think governors would feel more comfortable in that position. Um, because they would feel that, you know, um, masters of their own ship for want of a better, um, a better term. Uh, and their ability to say, no, this isn't safe either through health and safety or staffing or whatever other. Sort of measure. This means that I'm not able to provide this accommodation, but the prison service as a whole would find that very difficult. Um, because that would mean that the availability of accommodation fluctuated hugely and it would potentially expose issues where lack of investment over many, many years means that we are operating at that level more, far more often than we would like.
11:03
11:03
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Just to be absolutely clear, whilst in our report, we on prisons more generally, we were very keen to give more um authority and. Responsibility to prison governors. I think you make a very important point in respect of the fire safety, because they might wish to have greater control over it. But there are so many issues that would be out with their control, not least in terms. Even the appointment of staff over which they have no say, which is, in our view, a ridiculous situation.
So can we just be clear so we can get it firmly on the record?How would what bits of the responsibility for a governor would you change from what exists now, taking into account all of the concerns that you don't want the governor to end up being the person who's pilloried for something that's not really necessarily their fault?
So can we just be clear so we can get it firmly on the record?How would what bits of the responsibility for a governor would you change from what exists now, taking into account all of the concerns that you don't want the governor to end up being the person who's pilloried for something that's not really necessarily their fault?
11:04
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think it's about moving the mechanism of control and the ownership of the risk as close together as you possibly can. So preferably with somebody holding both. So in this case, uh, you could have a position where the person who sets the operational capacity of the prison, the person who certifies accommodation is being fit for use. Um, is the responsible person in terms of health and safety and fire safety legislation, because that would put those two things together. They would be very clear that their decisions have, um, consequences.
For them at the moment those two things are separate. So the governors are the responsible person. In the vast majority of cases. But their manager is the person who sets that capacity.
For them at the moment those two things are separate. So the governors are the responsible person. In the vast majority of cases. But their manager is the person who sets that capacity.
11:05
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11:06
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think the inspection framework is quite useful for governors. They welcome it when the inspectors arrive. Uh, and, and feed back the reports. I think from personal experience, I found them incredibly useful, um, to, to reassure myself that my concerns were valid, if that makes sense. Um, and it gives governors the opportunity to really make the case, as Tom described earlier, to the capacity teams to say, you know, we really would like to take this accommodation off and do this improvement work.
So the inspections are very much welcomed by governors.
So the inspections are very much welcomed by governors.
11:06
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think if I could just follow up, I think that's I think that's absolutely right. Um, but I think the fact that, uh, the fire Safety Inspectorate have moved into what they're calling the step away process means that where Hmps has been, um, unable to rectify issues that they have identified, that, um, they are not in a position to enforce that. Uh, so you could argue that in a very small number of cases where they've issued step away notices that they are, you know, inspection doesn't have sufficient enforcement to enable that to be, um, you know, those changes to be delivered.
11:07
11:07
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Um I, I. I'm really not sure. So I would love to be able to, um, come. Up with a structure by. Which one part of government could in effect. Um sue and penalize another part of government. Uh, I think um perhaps. Posing the issue in Parliament and having a formal process for doing that, making that subjective to, to debate could be something that's explored, but, um, yeah, I really don't know. I'm not constitutionally aware enough to come with a solution for that.
I don't think.
I don't think.
11:08
11:09
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Um, so the process by which it's issued by CP fc is um, it's clear governors know what they're getting them for. They come to the governor in the first instance. The governor is also now clear, um, that, uh, in the majority of cases, because they're to do with um, building work, remedial work systems and infrastructure issues that they cannot actually be held to account for that because they are not in control of the management of their infrastructure. So the, the step away notices end up going to, I think, uh, the chief executive of HMM PPS ends up being the named person in them.
Um, and at that point, once it's gone to the chief executive, then governors feel that they have sufficient, you know, sufficient top cover. Everybody knows exactly what it is that's going on in their prison and what efforts they're making to try and manage fire safety effectively within the constraints that they have.
Um, and at that point, once it's gone to the chief executive, then governors feel that they have sufficient, you know, sufficient top cover. Everybody knows exactly what it is that's going on in their prison and what efforts they're making to try and manage fire safety effectively within the constraints that they have.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think this through for a second. I mean, at the moment we have other inspection systems. We have the Chief Inspector of Prisons who produces reports and very often gets very frustrated that his recommendations are ignored by. HMM. PPS you'd confirm that that's the case. Yes. So let us now look. Regardless of Crown immunity, what do you think that the inspector could do?Anyway, unless we have got a requirement that the Department or HMP is required to follow the recommendations of an inspector, regardless of whether it's Crown immunity or not?
11:11
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Well, in the case, as you know, in the case of the Chief Inspector, um letters of urgent notification will go to the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State will be required to respond within a timescale. Um, I think the fact you know, that that adds more structure potentially and more oversight produces more focus. But as you will be aware, there are a number of prisons recently that have had repeat urgent notifications. So really, unless something more fundamental changes in terms of, um, the resourcing of some of this and I, you know, I do hate to keep going back to the fact that this is, um, in some ways a factor of a prison estate that has run under significant pressure for a very long time because lots of people are being sent to prison.
That's what, um, we've decided we would like to do in this country. And, um, that means our prisons are full because we haven't kept pace with building new places, but not even have we not kept pace with building new places. We haven't kept pace with updating our existing paces, places to meet current current standards. Uh, and that is the issue. So, you know, um, fire detection systems in prisons at the point of that, quite a lot of our estate was built were not a requirement.
There was no requirement to have any fire, automatic fire detection in, in the Victorian era. You have to keep pace as regulation changes, as technology changes, you have to keep pace. And in vest, that investment is significant. And, um, you know, there is a huge deficit in terms of the amount of money that's gone into maintaining and updating the prison estate over the decades.
That's what, um, we've decided we would like to do in this country. And, um, that means our prisons are full because we haven't kept pace with building new places, but not even have we not kept pace with building new places. We haven't kept pace with updating our existing paces, places to meet current current standards. Uh, and that is the issue. So, you know, um, fire detection systems in prisons at the point of that, quite a lot of our estate was built were not a requirement.
There was no requirement to have any fire, automatic fire detection in, in the Victorian era. You have to keep pace as regulation changes, as technology changes, you have to keep pace. And in vest, that investment is significant. And, um, you know, there is a huge deficit in terms of the amount of money that's gone into maintaining and updating the prison estate over the decades.
11:12
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Thank you for that. And I'm going to move, if I can, to Lord Morris, who might be able to pick up some of that more generally, but I would hope very much that by the end of Lord Morris question, you might be able to give us some thought as to whether, at least in terms of fire inspection, the procedure that applies for, uh hmm. The Chief Inspector of Prisons might at least apply for fires in that there is a report and a requirement for the Secretary of State to respond, but, Lord Morris.
11:12
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Well, I think there's probably two parts to that. One would be the prison population and the capacity pressures. Um, so taking the accommodation offline in order to complete the work because, you know, in a prison setting and in the last prison I governed, for example, um, to do the work that was required would have meant to decant the whole wing because you are eating into some of the security defence measures, you know, the real difficult sort of work. So I think capacity is one big issue.
Um, and I think. The second. Yeah. I think capacity pressure is the real big is the real big pressure. I mean, the financial side, of course, we saw the collapse of a large supplier, uh, recently. Um, and so a lot of that money was tied up, which then meant it couldn't be spent in the financial year. So some of the financial controls caused problems as well. When you're trying to complete some of this work in prison.
So I think for me, there's two aspects to this. One would absolutely be the prison population, the capacity pressure in order to, to, to take the pressure off. But also, I think the way we manage our contracts across the wider ministry probably need some improvement. And the way that we can sort of move the money around and facilitate some of the work to be completed.
Um, and I think. The second. Yeah. I think capacity pressure is the real big is the real big pressure. I mean, the financial side, of course, we saw the collapse of a large supplier, uh, recently. Um, and so a lot of that money was tied up, which then meant it couldn't be spent in the financial year. So some of the financial controls caused problems as well. When you're trying to complete some of this work in prison.
So I think for me, there's two aspects to this. One would absolutely be the prison population, the capacity pressure in order to, to, to take the pressure off. But also, I think the way we manage our contracts across the wider ministry probably need some improvement. And the way that we can sort of move the money around and facilitate some of the work to be completed.
11:14
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11:14
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So I think. Yes. Um, there could certainly be that, um that approach, that same approach of a letter to the Secretary of State where um CPF are stepping away from a particular issue on a particular site. Um, the other thing that we could do or that could be done that uses, um, an existing mechanism, uh, because the Chief Inspector reports on safety. Safety is an element of um. The chief inspector's reporting, uh, and the chief inspector, uh, liaises with a number of other inspectorates when they're carrying out their inspections.
So Ofsted and, um. The, their health inspectors are all part of that inspection team. Uh, if that were to include fire safety inspection and the chief inspector were to use their existing measures to write to the Secretary of State on um the basis. Of fire, then that might be a, um, a sort of fairly elegant way round. Um, that particular problem.
So Ofsted and, um. The, their health inspectors are all part of that inspection team. Uh, if that were to include fire safety inspection and the chief inspector were to use their existing measures to write to the Secretary of State on um the basis. Of fire, then that might be a, um, a sort of fairly elegant way round. Um, that particular problem.
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11:16
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So there's I think there's a few parts to this. So I think the organisation have responded quite well in terms of the deliberate fire setting caused by the vapes. They've brought in a safer vape, which they've been designing for some time. And so it gives me confidence that there are some officials in in the headquarters that are examining ways to reduce, um, the ignition source. And I believe we're we're almost there in terms of a new part in that will suppress them from, um, sort of tampering with the electrics.
So that that's also really welcome. And we've been listening to him talk about that for a while. So to see that delivered would be excellent. But I think in terms of the deliberate fire setting, um, I think there should be some kind of report or some commissioned work in terms of who sets those fires, because our intelligence would suggest whilst talking to members and experience of governors who've sadly had fires in their prisons, um, the people that caused these are vulnerable, uh, distressed, unwell and would probably ask, is prison the right setting for some of these individuals?Um, they deliberately set out to cause harm to themselves, not necessarily the majority.
And when you're in that period of crisis, it becomes, my understanding is it becomes a very insular view. And so I think there should be a piece of work that examines those people that set the fires and whether prison is the right place for everybody.
So that that's also really welcome. And we've been listening to him talk about that for a while. So to see that delivered would be excellent. But I think in terms of the deliberate fire setting, um, I think there should be some kind of report or some commissioned work in terms of who sets those fires, because our intelligence would suggest whilst talking to members and experience of governors who've sadly had fires in their prisons, um, the people that caused these are vulnerable, uh, distressed, unwell and would probably ask, is prison the right setting for some of these individuals?Um, they deliberately set out to cause harm to themselves, not necessarily the majority.
And when you're in that period of crisis, it becomes, my understanding is it becomes a very insular view. And so I think there should be a piece of work that examines those people that set the fires and whether prison is the right place for everybody.
11:17
Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Okay, can I, can I just put something to you both?So you've been in the prison service for a very long time. You both have really extensive experience. Uh, so 20 years ago when you started, it was smoking. At the time, the assumption was that smoking would calm prisoners down. We now know that smoking is absolutely does the opposite. And I might suggest that vaping does as well. So instead of making people feel better about themselves, they're going to be hyped up.
Um, and more likely to commit damage. Has that, is that something that's been discussed?You know.
Um, and more likely to commit damage. Has that, is that something that's been discussed?You know.
11:18
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
It's, it's certainly been discussed. Um, and, um, there has been much discussion around, um, whether vapes, which were originally introduced as part of the smoking cessation, part of taking tobacco products out of prisons that vapes were seen as a safer alternative. Yeah. We have, of course seen, um, that change from a position where tobacco was routinely traded by prisoners on a black market to pay for things to that being now vape capsules. So, you know, it has simply taken over, um, and where prisoners would, would, would, wouldn't have used matches and lighters to start fire, they're now using the element in vape pens.
So HMP have sensibly taken an approach to make a safer vape pen, which it's much more difficult to tamper with. But I don't think that the um you know, they are sort of blind to the fact that um, removing vapes altogether, um may be seen to have a, to be beneficial from a number of different, um, sort of viewpoints, both in terms of fire safety, but also around bullying and um, the sort of prison black markets that rely on something to be traded. So, you know, I think that is at least being considered.
Um, the other thing that, um. When we talk about the vast majority of fires being deliberately started, it really is the vast majority. I spoke to a colleague in HMP and asked for some data on the number of fires during the last three years that were viewed as being genuinely accidental.
So HMP have sensibly taken an approach to make a safer vape pen, which it's much more difficult to tamper with. But I don't think that the um you know, they are sort of blind to the fact that um, removing vapes altogether, um may be seen to have a, to be beneficial from a number of different, um, sort of viewpoints, both in terms of fire safety, but also around bullying and um, the sort of prison black markets that rely on something to be traded. So, you know, I think that is at least being considered.
Um, the other thing that, um. When we talk about the vast majority of fires being deliberately started, it really is the vast majority. I spoke to a colleague in HMP and asked for some data on the number of fires during the last three years that were viewed as being genuinely accidental.
11:20
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
So that removes everything. That was a fire started on purpose by an individual, but also removes those people who had been trying to cook something in a kettle, which they shouldn't do, and had inadvertently started a. And the number for prisons in England and Wales from the beginning, from the um. 2023 until today was nine. Yeah. So there have been nine truly, um, accidental fires that have, you know, some things malfunctioned. A piece of electrical equipment gone wrong.
Something something has happened. And of those nine fires, none of them resulted in serious injury to anybody. They were all dealt with fairly quickly. So the real majority of these cases are cases that are deliberately started or started by people who are distressed and who, on occasion will, because the purpose of starting the fire, um, is to sometimes to harm themselves, sometimes to cause disruption to other people. Um, they will attempt to defeat whatever, um, automatic fire detection is in place if they can, so that they can get the fire going rather than just set the alarm off very quickly.
So it's dealt with very quickly. So this really is a problem with the behaviour of individuals, not just the systems that prisons have to deal with the aftermath.
Something something has happened. And of those nine fires, none of them resulted in serious injury to anybody. They were all dealt with fairly quickly. So the real majority of these cases are cases that are deliberately started or started by people who are distressed and who, on occasion will, because the purpose of starting the fire, um, is to sometimes to harm themselves, sometimes to cause disruption to other people. Um, they will attempt to defeat whatever, um, automatic fire detection is in place if they can, so that they can get the fire going rather than just set the alarm off very quickly.
So it's dealt with very quickly. So this really is a problem with the behaviour of individuals, not just the systems that prisons have to deal with the aftermath.
11:21
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah. Okay. So but I'm putting to you and I'd love it if this could be taken forward. A rethink about whether vapes, uh, they should be taking, having vapes at all. They are not allowed for those under 18. But also, I note that a deterrent of, in a couple of instances have been has been tried in terms of destroying people's belongings when they're caught setting fires. And that deterrent, for example, at Lindholme has had a marked effect, particularly in the last three months, there have been no fires at all.
So um, deterrent plus rethinking the health policy as well as the reality, the reaction of people on vapes, I would suggest, could make a real difference.
So um, deterrent plus rethinking the health policy as well as the reality, the reaction of people on vapes, I would suggest, could make a real difference.
11:22
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yes. So we're currently consulting one part of HMP s uh, in the north where they are examining removal of vapes in that particular region. So we are currently working with them in conjunction and sort of going through what that would look like for the wider prison estate. It's very early days. It's very early consultation with us. But we're we're we're we're quite pleased to see that it is being considered because we share your views, Baroness.
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11:24
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Thank you. Okay. So, um, one of the things that we understand is that despite prisons in the private sector universally having afd's, um, and despite not having category D or category A prisoners, those are the kind of ends of the spectrum, if you like. Um, relative to the number of private prisons, prisons, there's a disproportionate number of fires in private prisons. So our first my first question is, do you have any reflections on why that would be the case?And then secondly.
Despite that disproportionality, we also understand that almost half of the fires in private prisons occur in three prisons. Do you know which those are and why?
Despite that disproportionality, we also understand that almost half of the fires in private prisons occur in three prisons. Do you know which those are and why?
11:24
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
So, no, I don't know which ones those are and why. To start off with, um I think um I think the fact that all the private prisons have automatic fire detection would be one of the reasons why the greatest number of fires are seen to occur in private prisons. Because if you're automatically detecting them in cells rather than people who, um, set a fire in a cell and then change their mind and, you know, if they've started a fire in their bin and they change their mind about because it's producing too much smoke and put it out themselves, we would never find out about it in a prison without automatic fire detection.
It would it would happen and be undetected.
It would it would happen and be undetected.
11:25
11:25
11:25
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Um, and the other thing that is the case in private prisons is, um, that private prisons all have in their contracts or as far as I. They did in my day. So I'm assuming they still do um, measures that are designed to ensure that all incidents are reported, no matter how minor. So, um, I would guess they are also in the case where there has been a small fire started in a cell in a bin which was put out by the prisoner, that fire would be reported.
Whereas even if it was known in the public sector, where there had been no um. You know, there had been no ramifications beyond that individual who had both started the fire and immediately put it out. I'm not sure that the, um, the mechanism for ensuring that that was, went through the reporting onto the incident reporting system would be as rigid and as structured.
Whereas even if it was known in the public sector, where there had been no um. You know, there had been no ramifications beyond that individual who had both started the fire and immediately put it out. I'm not sure that the, um, the mechanism for ensuring that that was, went through the reporting onto the incident reporting system would be as rigid and as structured.
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11:26
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Um, well, it's a question of what you're trying to find out. Um, so if you've got a. Prisoner in your custody who um, starts. Fires, you know, sets fires to small bits of paper or, and that doesn't, um, it doesn't sort of ever sort of spread beyond there. They drop it into the sink and put it out or somebody that um, is constantly cooking in a kettle that would set off automatic fire detection where it exists. Um, it's a question of what you're, what you're collecting the data for.
Uh, because if it's allow you to, to allow you to better manage the process in amongst all the other things that are happening in prisons that potentially carry risk for the people that are there. It could be seen as very, very minor. Um, but it does mean that you're perhaps not always comparing apples with apples when you look at the public and the private sector.
Uh, because if it's allow you to, to allow you to better manage the process in amongst all the other things that are happening in prisons that potentially carry risk for the people that are there. It could be seen as very, very minor. Um, but it does mean that you're perhaps not always comparing apples with apples when you look at the public and the private sector.
11:27
11:27
11:28
11:28
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
For example, they may you know, prison officer may have formed a relationship with a prisoner on the wing, knows that, knows more about them than we would as governors and would probably sit with them and say, look, why are we doing this?What's going on?You know, you're going to affect the whole regime, you know, people's access to and might have a sensible conversation and think, I've dealt with that and it may not make it to the reporting line. But Tom's point about the private sector, of course, is that, you know, HMP has its responsible person in the prison.
We call them the controller, and they are keeping an eye on the contract management, management, management and will be ensuring that all things are reported. Um, and we, we've talked about that previously, uh, in relation to other factors.
We call them the controller, and they are keeping an eye on the contract management, management, management and will be ensuring that all things are reported. Um, and we, we've talked about that previously, uh, in relation to other factors.
11:28
11:29
11:29
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Thank you very much. Um, can I just say a huge thank you to both of you for, uh, giving us such frank and very helpful evidence. Uh, as you know, only too well if there's anything that you wish you'd said that you haven't or anything you think of a bit later on, please don't hesitate to get in touch with us. And if you've got any specific proposals of what you think needs to change, of course, please let us know. But do it as quickly as possible.
So on behalf of the entire committee, thank you very much indeed. Order, order!The session is now. Three of you, thank you very much for coming. We'll be relatively brief so we can find out some factual information about Kit. Um, but before we get on to that, I have to start the proceedings. So are we ready?Four. Three. Welcome to this session of the, uh, Justice and Home Affairs Committees, fire Safety in Prisons inquiry.
We're grateful to our three witnesses, uh, joining us today. And before we begin, I'd be grateful if you could just introduce yourself. Can we start?
So on behalf of the entire committee, thank you very much indeed. Order, order!The session is now. Three of you, thank you very much for coming. We'll be relatively brief so we can find out some factual information about Kit. Um, but before we get on to that, I have to start the proceedings. So are we ready?Four. Three. Welcome to this session of the, uh, Justice and Home Affairs Committees, fire Safety in Prisons inquiry.
We're grateful to our three witnesses, uh, joining us today. And before we begin, I'd be grateful if you could just introduce yourself. Can we start?
11:33
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
Okay. Um. Hello, everybody. Good morning. My name is Alastair Perry. I'm the chief executive of BAFTA, which is a British automatic fire sprinkler association. We represent around 230 companies. And of the value of sprinklers fitted in the UK, our companies fit around 90% of that. My background prior to joining BAFTA three years ago was I was in the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service as a deputy assistant Chief Officer, um ending in charge of prevention and protection.
Um, and that's me. Good morning. My name is Richard. I'm the technical chairman. Um, I facilitate the technical committee for BAFTA, which looks at the new codes and new implementations coming into the industry. My background is our design based designing automatic fire protection systems suppression. Um, mainly water based and foam based. I've been in industry for nearly 40 years now. Um, in my, as a consultant, um, and also working on the oil refineries.
Um, so I've got quite a broad base.
Um, and that's me. Good morning. My name is Richard. I'm the technical chairman. Um, I facilitate the technical committee for BAFTA, which looks at the new codes and new implementations coming into the industry. My background is our design based designing automatic fire protection systems suppression. Um, mainly water based and foam based. I've been in industry for nearly 40 years now. Um, in my, as a consultant, um, and also working on the oil refineries.
Um, so I've got quite a broad base.
11:35
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
My name is Derek Gillespie. I'm the CEO of two fire protection companies in the UK. Fireworks, fire protection and a company called Hydra Mist. We manufacture and install the majority of the water mist fire suppression equipment that is currently installed in the HMP estate in England and Wales, and also in Scotland.
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11:37
Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Um. Thank you, chair. And, uh. So I'm just going to kick off with a very basic question as to how the three of you see, um, prisons currently managing fire risk and what happens when there is a fire. So just to kick off with that question. So how do you currently see prisons managing fire risk and what happens when there is a fire?
11:37
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
Well, I think at the moment. Amongst the the assets there's a mixed bag. There's a number of prisons that have already had sprinkler protection installed. Um, which gives you a. Immediate um fighting. Ability on any fire that's generated within the asset. Um, and there's a number of um. Prisons that don't have any automatic systems installed where primarily it's, it's based on manual handling. So handheld. Washers and the like.
Uh, of course there's a. There's a reaction lag when it comes to handheld extinguishers because sprinklers are automatic system and they operate very quickly in the kind of environments that we're looking at in prisons. That's that tends to be, I don't know what the percentages are between the two. Um, but I know that there was a number of um. Detention centres that were built about 20 years ago that they were all provided with sprinkler systems. I can only assume that the new prisons that are built nowadays are fitted with sprinkler systems as well, or a method of fire protection automatically.
Uh, of course there's a. There's a reaction lag when it comes to handheld extinguishers because sprinklers are automatic system and they operate very quickly in the kind of environments that we're looking at in prisons. That's that tends to be, I don't know what the percentages are between the two. Um, but I know that there was a number of um. Detention centres that were built about 20 years ago that they were all provided with sprinkler systems. I can only assume that the new prisons that are built nowadays are fitted with sprinkler systems as well, or a method of fire protection automatically.
11:39
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
So new prisons are fitted with a new type of sprinkler system, which is generally industry referred to as water mist. These systems are work at a much higher pressure than conventional sprinklers, and use significantly less water. Um, most of the water that is introduced into a cell or any area in a prison that's on fire with a water mist system is used to actually fight the fire. So sprinkler system works in a, a tried and tried and tested method of making everything wet so the fire can't spread.
A water mist system works, um, where it's actually tested on individual fires to find the correct amount of flow of water to actually successfully suppress and control the fire. Um, what water mist is also able to prove is that it can reduce the amount of smoke in the air so that you can actually reduce the toxin levels as well, particularly in an enclosed space such as a cell. So water mist for the last 20 years has been the preferred choice of fire suppression. Um, across the whole of the UK.
A water mist system works, um, where it's actually tested on individual fires to find the correct amount of flow of water to actually successfully suppress and control the fire. Um, what water mist is also able to prove is that it can reduce the amount of smoke in the air so that you can actually reduce the toxin levels as well, particularly in an enclosed space such as a cell. So water mist for the last 20 years has been the preferred choice of fire suppression. Um, across the whole of the UK.
11:40
11:40
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
About 90% of the estate. We believe at this, this moment in time has water mist of one sort or another. So, um, Richard referred to manual intervention systems. If I give a little, a little bit of history of where we came into the mix, that might help the committee. So about 20 years ago, we were approached by MoJ from, by their um fire specialist who had come from the fire and rescue background and understood a little bit about water mist and could see that water mist could be, um, a great substance for them to use in this environment.
So we set up some sort of fairly low scale testing, um, which we, you know, we provided equipment for, but what we established was that what they really needed would be a fixed nozzle in each cell, an automatic style system. Um, but they didn't already have that. When asked why they don't have sprinklers, the answer was simply we can't afford them. And so we said, well, what do you actually use?And what they were using were conventional hose reels, which they would put through a hole in the door called an inundation port.
So a fire is detected by whatever means, um, a prison officer would attend would bring with him a hose reel from a nearby hose reel cabinet, remove the inundation point, put the hose reel through the door and open the nozzle to flow water. The problem they had with the hose reels is the flow rate is about 65l a minute. It can vary on pressure, but as a rough average 65l a minute. And of course you can't actually see where the fire is because all you've got is a small window and the room you're looking into is full of smoke.
So actually getting any of the water onto the fire was the first challenge. But what was actually happening is that the the smoke was not being combated in any way. So the person inside the cell is beginning to choke. Inevitably, it ended with the officer making the decision to open the door and do a rescue, which could then involve himself being overcome by smoke. So it was a relatively well, it was quite extremely dangerous situation for them to deal with. And also, once you've opened the door, the smoke has now got access to the rest of the prison.
So you could have smoke going under other prison doors. So this was what started the MoJ looking at. There must be a better way. So when we established that their method of firefighting was using conventional hose reels, we set about designing and developing high pressure water hose reels to do exactly the same job, but in the way that high pressure water mist works. And the system we designed works at 100 bar, because the testing demonstrated that the higher the pressure, the more of the smoke particles you capture, and therefore the more of the toxins you remove from the air.
You also use all of the water mist because as the fire draws oxygen, the water mist being very light and floating in the air, almost like a gas, will also be drawn to the fire. So you have a two fold result in that you quickly cool and suppress the fire, and you remove the toxins. In later testing. So 2 or 3 years down the line, the MoJ organised full scale testing of the building research establishment, which we were a part of. Um we were able to measure the exact amounts of gas and toxins in the air.
And the report that the MoJ have from Bre demonstrates that the system was able to provide a life tenable atmosphere for a minimum time of five minutes. Five minutes was set as being the time that after the alarm had gone off, would be the reaction time of enough people arriving to effect a safe rescue from the cell, rather than it just being one person on their own. So in the initial stages, one person would react with a handheld lance, and then within five minutes, support would arrive to to help them remove someone from the cell.
But the critical part there is that the life tenable atmosphere was achieved during those five minutes.
So we set up some sort of fairly low scale testing, um, which we, you know, we provided equipment for, but what we established was that what they really needed would be a fixed nozzle in each cell, an automatic style system. Um, but they didn't already have that. When asked why they don't have sprinklers, the answer was simply we can't afford them. And so we said, well, what do you actually use?And what they were using were conventional hose reels, which they would put through a hole in the door called an inundation port.
So a fire is detected by whatever means, um, a prison officer would attend would bring with him a hose reel from a nearby hose reel cabinet, remove the inundation point, put the hose reel through the door and open the nozzle to flow water. The problem they had with the hose reels is the flow rate is about 65l a minute. It can vary on pressure, but as a rough average 65l a minute. And of course you can't actually see where the fire is because all you've got is a small window and the room you're looking into is full of smoke.
So actually getting any of the water onto the fire was the first challenge. But what was actually happening is that the the smoke was not being combated in any way. So the person inside the cell is beginning to choke. Inevitably, it ended with the officer making the decision to open the door and do a rescue, which could then involve himself being overcome by smoke. So it was a relatively well, it was quite extremely dangerous situation for them to deal with. And also, once you've opened the door, the smoke has now got access to the rest of the prison.
So you could have smoke going under other prison doors. So this was what started the MoJ looking at. There must be a better way. So when we established that their method of firefighting was using conventional hose reels, we set about designing and developing high pressure water hose reels to do exactly the same job, but in the way that high pressure water mist works. And the system we designed works at 100 bar, because the testing demonstrated that the higher the pressure, the more of the smoke particles you capture, and therefore the more of the toxins you remove from the air.
You also use all of the water mist because as the fire draws oxygen, the water mist being very light and floating in the air, almost like a gas, will also be drawn to the fire. So you have a two fold result in that you quickly cool and suppress the fire, and you remove the toxins. In later testing. So 2 or 3 years down the line, the MoJ organised full scale testing of the building research establishment, which we were a part of. Um we were able to measure the exact amounts of gas and toxins in the air.
And the report that the MoJ have from Bre demonstrates that the system was able to provide a life tenable atmosphere for a minimum time of five minutes. Five minutes was set as being the time that after the alarm had gone off, would be the reaction time of enough people arriving to effect a safe rescue from the cell, rather than it just being one person on their own. So in the initial stages, one person would react with a handheld lance, and then within five minutes, support would arrive to to help them remove someone from the cell.
But the critical part there is that the life tenable atmosphere was achieved during those five minutes.
11:43
11:43
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
If possible, please. Um, my view of the. I've listened to some of the previous evidence to the committee and from my background in the fire service, we always um very much. Pushed automatic fire detection because it's clearly critical if there's a fire, people are aware and they can get out. And that's one area when I look at, um, fire protection within prisons, focusing on getting automatic fire detection in there. Um, but beyond that, and again, the experience in the fire service during Covid, we identified there was a doubling of fire deaths in Scotland, and it was all in a specific population.
People generally over 60 lived alone, had mobility issues and couldn't leave the property. And when there was a fire and had other vulnerabilities, I see the prison population quite similar to that. And while we fitted smoke detection in their properties and we reduced fire deaths the following year, um, I kept coming back to that problem and thinking the solution was sprinklers, because if people cannot leave the property, you are in many cases alerting them to a fire they cannot escape. So it's part of the solution, but it's not the whole solution on, um, some of the other matters.
I think the key parameter for me is time. I know the Moj's own study in 2007, six minutes. You're injured. Seven minutes of a fire occurring. You're unconscious, eight minutes you're dead. Now, if you have some of the manually operated systems that Derek spoken about, you have to be alerted to the fire. Collect that equipment, deploy that equipment, and that can take up time. The automatic response of sprinklers and other fire suppression of water mist.
It's in the name. It's automatic of a fire occurring. A normal fire will, um, be extinguished by sprinkler in 1 to 4 minutes or suppressed in 1 to 4 minutes. Sprinklers also control the smoke. Not quite the same way, and as effectively as what mist does. But they stop the fire. They suppress it and prevent smoke being produced. So there's a variety of solutions, a variety of suppression solutions. I think the water mist is an excellent solution.
But there are others. But it's that time parameter for me that you cannot get away from the fact it's that automatic actuation of automatic fire suppression that's particularly effective.
People generally over 60 lived alone, had mobility issues and couldn't leave the property. And when there was a fire and had other vulnerabilities, I see the prison population quite similar to that. And while we fitted smoke detection in their properties and we reduced fire deaths the following year, um, I kept coming back to that problem and thinking the solution was sprinklers, because if people cannot leave the property, you are in many cases alerting them to a fire they cannot escape. So it's part of the solution, but it's not the whole solution on, um, some of the other matters.
I think the key parameter for me is time. I know the Moj's own study in 2007, six minutes. You're injured. Seven minutes of a fire occurring. You're unconscious, eight minutes you're dead. Now, if you have some of the manually operated systems that Derek spoken about, you have to be alerted to the fire. Collect that equipment, deploy that equipment, and that can take up time. The automatic response of sprinklers and other fire suppression of water mist.
It's in the name. It's automatic of a fire occurring. A normal fire will, um, be extinguished by sprinkler in 1 to 4 minutes or suppressed in 1 to 4 minutes. Sprinklers also control the smoke. Not quite the same way, and as effectively as what mist does. But they stop the fire. They suppress it and prevent smoke being produced. So there's a variety of solutions, a variety of suppression solutions. I think the water mist is an excellent solution.
But there are others. But it's that time parameter for me that you cannot get away from the fact it's that automatic actuation of automatic fire suppression that's particularly effective.
11:46
11:46
Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
It does. Yes. No. We've largely covered a lot of that in the last question and answer, but my question is actually what fire suppression equipment is currently used. And perhaps even more to the point, what particularly would you like to see being used that isn't currently being used or not used very much?
11:47
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
Um, well, the majority of the equipment being used is high pressure water mist. Um, it's a mixed bag of mobile manual equipment. So a wheeled trolley with a, a stored amount of water that is taken from a secure store to the, the place where there's a fire and, you know, used in that way, fixed hose reels, um, along the wing and all the way up to fixed in cell where we have high pressure water mist installed in exactly the same way. Um, that's been described as a conventional sprinkler system would be installed.
Um, so yeah, that would be. The absolute ultimate would be to have fixed automatic in every cell. The method of operation could either be the traditional way, which is a bulb in the nozzle that does open itself up to tampering. Unfortunately, and false activations. So the preferred method in England and Wales is to use remote detection systems that then operate the system. So you have a tamper proof nozzle that's been tried and tested and can't be blocked by toothpaste, etc., and also has been designed so that you can't attach a ligature point to it.
So to prevent anybody using it as a means of ending their own life through hanging.
Um, so yeah, that would be. The absolute ultimate would be to have fixed automatic in every cell. The method of operation could either be the traditional way, which is a bulb in the nozzle that does open itself up to tampering. Unfortunately, and false activations. So the preferred method in England and Wales is to use remote detection systems that then operate the system. So you have a tamper proof nozzle that's been tried and tested and can't be blocked by toothpaste, etc., and also has been designed so that you can't attach a ligature point to it.
So to prevent anybody using it as a means of ending their own life through hanging.
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11:48
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
It could, it could be every prison. Yeah, yeah. In much the way it's been described as you'd put, you know, it, the water mist system in effect, you know, we differentiate water mist and sprinklers. But in the automatic way they work, they're they're the very similar systems. The way they deal with the fire is slightly different, but their method of operation is the same. It's a pump, it's valves, it's pipework all the way up to a nozzle in each of the protected areas.
And the nozzle is is opened automatically, either by remote detection or by a glass frangible bulb located in the head.
And the nozzle is is opened automatically, either by remote detection or by a glass frangible bulb located in the head.
11:49
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
I think what we'd also like to see is, um, automatic. Systems extended to all parts of the prisons rather than just the cells. The cells are um. A very compartmentalised. And you know, they, they will, they will control the fire if, if left on their own because they're highly compartmentalized. But you've also got areas of a prison that stock store rooms, work rooms, large areas where a fire could take over the building. And it's in those areas that it's quite important that you have a system that starts fighting the fire as soon as it's detected.
Um, because in those remote areas and they're not always, um. Full with people that, um, you could have a fire break out and by the time someone gets there, the fire is propagated to a point in which it can't be controlled by manual intervention anymore. Um, so an automatic system and a system that's designed for the type of risk that you could find within that compartment is really what we'd like to see.
Um, because in those remote areas and they're not always, um. Full with people that, um, you could have a fire break out and by the time someone gets there, the fire is propagated to a point in which it can't be controlled by manual intervention anymore. Um, so an automatic system and a system that's designed for the type of risk that you could find within that compartment is really what we'd like to see.
11:50
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
So we currently have water systems installed in other areas other than, than the cells. So they're also installed in, in the Titan prisons are installed in association areas. And we're seeing that being rolled out increasingly across the estate. So more areas, um, storerooms are not always, but sometimes included workshop areas tend to not be included because these are areas that are only ever populated by prisoners when they're under guard, they're not allowed in there on their own. So they're deemed as a, as I understand it, as an area where fire risk in there is quite low.
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11:51
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
For me, it's about the individual risk that the size of compartments can have a massive impact on which system you would choose and which system is effective. It's quite a complicated engineering process. The design of any system, particularly a bespoke system or fully hydraulic calculated system. And depending on the prison, it may require that there's definitely advantages to what. Mist. Likewise disadvantages to sprinklers, and they are very similar, but they are also different. And it would require to me, um, an effective fire engineering resolution thought through for that prison.
It's not simply one size fits all, depending on the geography of the, the prison building would depend on what the appropriate solution would be. And of course BAFTA, you know, we're a free source of information and guidance and happy to help with anything associated with that. Thank you.
It's not simply one size fits all, depending on the geography of the, the prison building would depend on what the appropriate solution would be. And of course BAFTA, you know, we're a free source of information and guidance and happy to help with anything associated with that. Thank you.
11:52
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Two quick questions from me, if I can. You talked about Kit. Must be designed specifically to take account of the possibility that people might use them as ligature points, and there is now equipment, as I understand it, available, that avoids that particular problem. The other issue will, of course, be the problem of people deliberately tampering with equipment. Can you just tell us a little bit about Anti-tampering equipment and whether there is such equipment, and is it used in prisons?
11:52
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
Um, so yes, so the water mist equipment that we provide has been designed to be anti-tamper. Um, so part of the test process, um they have a standardised test which they call the toothpaste test, but it's, it's a combination of toothpaste and, and other gunk, if we can call it that, that is crammed into the nozzles of the, of the actual outlet ports on the nozzle. Um, and then left to set. And then you have to operate the system and prove that you can still achieve.
Um, I think it's 85% flow rate. Actually, we were achieving about 99% flow rate with all of that. The other advantage of having a higher pressure is that it clears that out. The pressure is only actually in the back of the nozzle once it comes out of the nozzle, there's no pressure. You can put your hand over the nozzle without there being any harmful effects, but that back pressure will clear out anything that somebody might have inadvertently or otherwise decided to coat all over the the top of the nozzle, including paint.
We've seen occasionally. Um, so so yes. So I believe that the equipment that's currently in use has been designed. It's not equipment that was available before we were approached by the MoJ in 2005. We spent quite a lot of time specifically designing equipment to suit exactly that risk, including doing fire tests for exactly that risk and including expanding fire testing out to, for example, um, we talked about protecting other areas, um, in a standard installation, we might call an association area would give it a classification of oh one.
So we would put a water system with a test up to oh one in that area. It would be a different nozzle than we're putting in the cell. So there is a range of different designs going on within the prison using water mist.
Um, I think it's 85% flow rate. Actually, we were achieving about 99% flow rate with all of that. The other advantage of having a higher pressure is that it clears that out. The pressure is only actually in the back of the nozzle once it comes out of the nozzle, there's no pressure. You can put your hand over the nozzle without there being any harmful effects, but that back pressure will clear out anything that somebody might have inadvertently or otherwise decided to coat all over the the top of the nozzle, including paint.
We've seen occasionally. Um, so so yes. So I believe that the equipment that's currently in use has been designed. It's not equipment that was available before we were approached by the MoJ in 2005. We spent quite a lot of time specifically designing equipment to suit exactly that risk, including doing fire tests for exactly that risk and including expanding fire testing out to, for example, um, we talked about protecting other areas, um, in a standard installation, we might call an association area would give it a classification of oh one.
So we would put a water system with a test up to oh one in that area. It would be a different nozzle than we're putting in the cell. So there is a range of different designs going on within the prison using water mist.
11:54
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
That's very helpful. Um, and my other question is a more general one. We'll move on in a minute to the barriers of achieving what you might want to do in prison. But we also need to be clear what we actually want to do. And one of the dilemmas is. All prisons are different, different designs. Some are incredibly old, some brand new, all of that, lots of other things will come on to all of those in a second.
But broadly speaking, in designing a. Plan for a prison which is. More important, is it the detection or is it suppression?I think I know the answer, but in a second we'll come on to that. I hear what you say. And when it comes to the issue of suppression, is it your view that we need to have suppression in all parts of a prison?You talked about the large communal areas as distinct from prison cells, bearing in.
Mind. Most of the fires are individual prisoners setting deliberately fires in individual cells. Does that have an impact on what you decide or not?So what's your view about what an ideal, realistic and financial and other circumstances system look like?Is it suppression everywhere and detection everywhere or something different?
But broadly speaking, in designing a. Plan for a prison which is. More important, is it the detection or is it suppression?I think I know the answer, but in a second we'll come on to that. I hear what you say. And when it comes to the issue of suppression, is it your view that we need to have suppression in all parts of a prison?You talked about the large communal areas as distinct from prison cells, bearing in.
Mind. Most of the fires are individual prisoners setting deliberately fires in individual cells. Does that have an impact on what you decide or not?So what's your view about what an ideal, realistic and financial and other circumstances system look like?Is it suppression everywhere and detection everywhere or something different?
11:55
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
Well, I think one of the things you've got to look at is the environment in which you're dealing with. It's quite a volatile environment. So detection, which is which is quite important to, to make you aware that that there is a fire can't go with the normal escape routes. So you can't, you know. Vacate everyone from that area because you need a secure area in which to put them. So that's where suppression becomes more important because you need to be able to control the fire, as well as controlling the people in the area.
If you just have a detection system, you're aware that there's a fire. Um, but now you've got now you've got to safely evacuate those people from that area. You've got to have an area which to take them to. If you have suppression system within the cells, then that means that you could at least attack the fire while everyone else is safely in their cell. And they don't have to be evacuated straight away. And then there can be a staged evacuation or a method in which you can start taking those people from one area to another.
When we're looking at the larger areas, the workshops and places like that, you have the same thing in that, um, although majority of the fires are set by, by the prisoners, you still have occasions where you will have a fire because of electrical short or, something. Yeah. You need to have a method in which it doesn't put the whole prison into panic. You know, that it's being dealt with by the system that's been installed within that area. Um, and. Primarily because of the people that you're dealing with and the environment that you have, that is vitally important.
You know, you have a serious outnumbering of, of prisoners to prison guards. So the prison guards have to be effectively applied when there is a fire. And if, if they know that the fire is actually being dealt with by a system, then it means that they don't have to concentrate. They can concentrate on managing the prisoners rather than trying to manage the fire.
If you just have a detection system, you're aware that there's a fire. Um, but now you've got now you've got to safely evacuate those people from that area. You've got to have an area which to take them to. If you have suppression system within the cells, then that means that you could at least attack the fire while everyone else is safely in their cell. And they don't have to be evacuated straight away. And then there can be a staged evacuation or a method in which you can start taking those people from one area to another.
When we're looking at the larger areas, the workshops and places like that, you have the same thing in that, um, although majority of the fires are set by, by the prisoners, you still have occasions where you will have a fire because of electrical short or, something. Yeah. You need to have a method in which it doesn't put the whole prison into panic. You know, that it's being dealt with by the system that's been installed within that area. Um, and. Primarily because of the people that you're dealing with and the environment that you have, that is vitally important.
You know, you have a serious outnumbering of, of prisoners to prison guards. So the prison guards have to be effectively applied when there is a fire. And if, if they know that the fire is actually being dealt with by a system, then it means that they don't have to concentrate. They can concentrate on managing the prisoners rather than trying to manage the fire.
11:58
11:58
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
Yeah. Thank you for. I'm thinking of. About it. I think of the risk and it clearly needs a robust risk assessment to identify where the prisoners most at risk, etc. you can start prioritising the intervention, but whichever way you cut it, you need three things you need to know. There's a fire. You need a way of dealing with the smoke produced by that fire, and you need a way of controlling, suppressing, extinguishing that fire. So all three, whichever way you look at it, are essential.
And it's it. I wouldn't want to go down the line of saying one is more important than the other. There's different ways of doing each of those things. There's different ways that Derek's described using water mist, mobile systems, etc. the sprinkler system. Similarly, although they would be, um, you know, the full building and protection, but there's different ways of doing it. It depends on that risk. You can't do everything all at once all the time.
So a risk managed approach of looking at getting detection in, which I think is essential, a way of controlling the smoke, which is essential and a way of controlling that fire. Be that through a hose reel, through high pressure water mist, which is an effective solution through a fully, um, building wide protection of sprinkler or water mist that's automatic fitted within the cells. So there's a range of solutions that are appropriate depending on the risk.
And it's it. I wouldn't want to go down the line of saying one is more important than the other. There's different ways of doing each of those things. There's different ways that Derek's described using water mist, mobile systems, etc. the sprinkler system. Similarly, although they would be, um, you know, the full building and protection, but there's different ways of doing it. It depends on that risk. You can't do everything all at once all the time.
So a risk managed approach of looking at getting detection in, which I think is essential, a way of controlling the smoke, which is essential and a way of controlling that fire. Be that through a hose reel, through high pressure water mist, which is an effective solution through a fully, um, building wide protection of sprinkler or water mist that's automatic fitted within the cells. So there's a range of solutions that are appropriate depending on the risk.
12:00
12:00
12:00
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
Well, for me, the first one would be start with the new builds. Any new builds, protect them fully. No question. Um, fully. You know, AfD, smoke control and suppression. Beyond that, the real challenges are it's the nature of the the risks within a prison. You can't in a normal. And Richard can speak to this, um, better than I can. But if you're doing a normal fit, you'll bring all the kit on side.
You'll have the guys with their, um, you know, IEDs that they can get access, etc. and you go in and start the day and you work all day and you leave in the prison environment. I don't believe from from discussion with Richard, you can't just leave your kit on prison because it could be stolen, could be used for nefarious purposes, etc.. So it has to be off, taken on site. Every day, takes up time. Um, so that the, the speed of it would be difficult.
You have to have gaps within walls, etc. to fit whatever, um, fully protected system you're fitting. So that takes time. You need to work on the cell. Um, it's going to involve decanting of prisoners, which given the population issues within the prison estate, might be a challenge. And the cost as well. We're not talking about your standard sprinkler bulb or your standard water mist head. We're talking about ones that are bespoke, designed for the prison system.
So are likely to incur a bigger cost. So those are the challenges that I would see.
You'll have the guys with their, um, you know, IEDs that they can get access, etc. and you go in and start the day and you work all day and you leave in the prison environment. I don't believe from from discussion with Richard, you can't just leave your kit on prison because it could be stolen, could be used for nefarious purposes, etc.. So it has to be off, taken on site. Every day, takes up time. Um, so that the, the speed of it would be difficult.
You have to have gaps within walls, etc. to fit whatever, um, fully protected system you're fitting. So that takes time. You need to work on the cell. Um, it's going to involve decanting of prisoners, which given the population issues within the prison estate, might be a challenge. And the cost as well. We're not talking about your standard sprinkler bulb or your standard water mist head. We're talking about ones that are bespoke, designed for the prison system.
So are likely to incur a bigger cost. So those are the challenges that I would see.
12:02
12:02
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
What you really want to achieve in a design is the nozzle or the sprinkler is the only point at which the prisoners have access to the system. There's a single point. So what you need to do is you need to route the pipework. You need to enclose the equipment, and you need to protect the plant. So there can be no interference. And these systems, there's an awful lot of work involved in them. Um, and some of the pipework can be quite robust.
Um but it can still be damaged. But what you need to do is, you know, a lot, a lot of the, um. The pipework routine is, is within reachable distance. So it's not as high as this ceiling. It's quite low down. So there's a lot of points in which the prisoners can interact with the system. And it's, it's ensuring that the system is installed. So at no point is there a point in which the prisoners can access any part of the system or any part of the kit apart from the nozzle.
And then all you have to worry about then is, is the nozzle fit for purpose?Um, and the nozzles tend to be installed in um systems. So in a, in a prison cell, you'll find that you'll have a system that involves the lighting. Um, and it tends to be in the corner of the room and it's a, a robust um enclosure. That encloses the lights in a particular way and everything else. So that, so that the prisoners who have an awful lot of time on their hands, um, can't sit there chipping away at it.
Um, so that's really, it's in new prisons. You can accommodate that because you can build in service voids, you can build in um, riser voids and everything else. And the enclosure, you can't just use plasterboard. It has to be secure enclosure it for these pipes. It's retrofitted. Um, where these enclosures are, are important. And that needs to be looked at because um even the fixings of the enclosure are, are vitally important simply because these prisoners um.
They can think on their feet. So, you know, there's, there's, they've got a lot of time on their hands. So you want to make sure that at no point is there a weakness that they can access the system. And of course. If they if they operate the system, it creates an awful funfair within the prison because all the bells are ringing and no one knows where the fire is and everything else. And even if they're just doing it for mischief, that's really.
What the kind of issues that you're looking at.
Um but it can still be damaged. But what you need to do is, you know, a lot, a lot of the, um. The pipework routine is, is within reachable distance. So it's not as high as this ceiling. It's quite low down. So there's a lot of points in which the prisoners can interact with the system. And it's, it's ensuring that the system is installed. So at no point is there a point in which the prisoners can access any part of the system or any part of the kit apart from the nozzle.
And then all you have to worry about then is, is the nozzle fit for purpose?Um, and the nozzles tend to be installed in um systems. So in a, in a prison cell, you'll find that you'll have a system that involves the lighting. Um, and it tends to be in the corner of the room and it's a, a robust um enclosure. That encloses the lights in a particular way and everything else. So that, so that the prisoners who have an awful lot of time on their hands, um, can't sit there chipping away at it.
Um, so that's really, it's in new prisons. You can accommodate that because you can build in service voids, you can build in um, riser voids and everything else. And the enclosure, you can't just use plasterboard. It has to be secure enclosure it for these pipes. It's retrofitted. Um, where these enclosures are, are important. And that needs to be looked at because um even the fixings of the enclosure are, are vitally important simply because these prisoners um.
They can think on their feet. So, you know, there's, there's, they've got a lot of time on their hands. So you want to make sure that at no point is there a weakness that they can access the system. And of course. If they if they operate the system, it creates an awful funfair within the prison because all the bells are ringing and no one knows where the fire is and everything else. And even if they're just doing it for mischief, that's really.
What the kind of issues that you're looking at.
12:06
12:06
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
What's. Sorry, what's on top of that as well?Security. So you have to be aware of what's being brought on to the site. If it's a if it's a populated site, you have to be aware of what's being brought on the site and what's being taken away from the site. Because what you don't want is a box of screws being left behind, or any anything of that nature. Everything has to be accounted for. Even the design drawings.
12:07
12:07
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
And I think I'm I'm not overly sure, but I would assume that most prisons aren't, uh, designed for handling a huge number of prisoners at the same time. It's probably because you have a limited resource of prison officers. You could only deal with a certain number of prisoners at the same time. If you're, you know, you're rooting them from one place to another.
12:08
12:08
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
Um, well, your original question was, what are the barriers to it?And I think you answered the question as well, because it's mainly funding. Um, I think if unlimited funds were available, every prison would already have a water fixed fire suppression system in every cell and every space throughout, including storerooms, workshops. So we have to sort of come back to reality. Of what is available. Um, I'm not involved in designing the strategy of, you know, the fire strategy for prisons.
Um, but I, I, I believe that there would be, you could still use those fixed fire systems in smaller areas of prisons. So if we talked, I overheard you talking earlier about reporting in prisons and about how that can differ from prison to prison. If reporting in in all business is the key thing, you need to understand how your business is operating. And it's the same for prison. If you have accurate reporting, then you know what's going on. And you can then make decisions as to as to how you improve.
So if you could work out, um, that you've got, let's say you've got ten repeat offenders who are constantly setting fire. And we established that they're getting all the help that they need. So, you know, as was mentioned before, that they could be vulnerable people. So more punishment won't help them you, but you could actually put them together if you've satisfied yourself that these are just nuisance makers, as an example, you could put them together and protect that area of the prison with an automatic system and still leave the rest of the prison running on the more cost effective, manually applied systems.
Um, as I say, in an in an ideal world, you'd protect the whole prison. You haven't got to worry about where anybody is. But we're not in an ideal world, and funding is definitely a pressure that they that they suffer from. But I think it's also worth just looking at where they were 20 years ago and where they are now in terms of the prison population in the UK, how that's risen over 20 years, and how the casualty rate hasn't matched that. The casualty rate is still relatively low.
It's very similar to the rates of 20 years ago, before they had, water. So putting water mist in the prisons has enabled them to reduce the casualty rate. So it would appear that doing more of that will will help more and more.
Um, but I, I, I believe that there would be, you could still use those fixed fire systems in smaller areas of prisons. So if we talked, I overheard you talking earlier about reporting in prisons and about how that can differ from prison to prison. If reporting in in all business is the key thing, you need to understand how your business is operating. And it's the same for prison. If you have accurate reporting, then you know what's going on. And you can then make decisions as to as to how you improve.
So if you could work out, um, that you've got, let's say you've got ten repeat offenders who are constantly setting fire. And we established that they're getting all the help that they need. So, you know, as was mentioned before, that they could be vulnerable people. So more punishment won't help them you, but you could actually put them together if you've satisfied yourself that these are just nuisance makers, as an example, you could put them together and protect that area of the prison with an automatic system and still leave the rest of the prison running on the more cost effective, manually applied systems.
Um, as I say, in an in an ideal world, you'd protect the whole prison. You haven't got to worry about where anybody is. But we're not in an ideal world, and funding is definitely a pressure that they that they suffer from. But I think it's also worth just looking at where they were 20 years ago and where they are now in terms of the prison population in the UK, how that's risen over 20 years, and how the casualty rate hasn't matched that. The casualty rate is still relatively low.
It's very similar to the rates of 20 years ago, before they had, water. So putting water mist in the prisons has enabled them to reduce the casualty rate. So it would appear that doing more of that will will help more and more.
12:10
12:10
12:10
12:10
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Oh, hello. Yes. Can I bring it back to a very practical, um, slightly mundane, but very important point about how do you get in the aftermath of a fire back to, you know, being fully operational as a prison and particularly the cells that have been effective if sprinklers go off, you know, water drainage, you know, whether you have to refit the, the sprinklers could could you talk us through a little bit of that, please?
12:11
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
Um, well, first for sprinkler system, it's quite easy. All you need to do is replace the, the sprinkler head. Um, the rest of the system just, it's just a case of resetting. Um one of the problems that there is, is of course removing the water. Um, because there's an awful lot of water with mist systems. Uh, the benefit with mist systems is they use far less water, but there is still a generous amount of water that's produced within a small environment that needs to be cleaned up.
And of course, you know, water, like everything else, will find its lowest point. So if there's any cracks, you'll find there'll be water pouring down that. So there needs to be an idea of what, what is the process and what is the um procedure after a fire. How do you deal with the water?How has that been built in. Um as well as dealing with the smoke damage.
And of course, you know, water, like everything else, will find its lowest point. So if there's any cracks, you'll find there'll be water pouring down that. So there needs to be an idea of what, what is the process and what is the um procedure after a fire. How do you deal with the water?How has that been built in. Um as well as dealing with the smoke damage.
12:12
12:12
12:12
12:13
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
No, no, but what you could, what you could do is it could be installed within the public, not public areas, but the general areas, um, not within the cells but within the general areas, you know, like a grated outside the door or something like that that could take the wastewater away. Um, but then that becomes a very complicated system because then you have lots of pipes taking that wastewater away. So you've got to look at what's the practicalities. Um, and what is the time scale involved in a clear up?And what do you do with those prisoners in that block while you are clearing up from a fire.
So it's there's quite a number of things, but that is all part of a fire strategy that's put together for the prison and the procedures for, for the, you know, the MoJ.
So it's there's quite a number of things, but that is all part of a fire strategy that's put together for the prison and the procedures for, for the, you know, the MoJ.
12:13
12:13
12:14
12:14
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
Yeah. Okay. We would flow 15. Well, somewhere between 7 and 15. So it's significantly less. We would also use most of that water to actually fight the fire. Um, so where it comes in contact with the fire, it converts to steam, which is without getting too technical, is how it cools the fire quickly. Um, so actually the residue of water left in the cell after a water mist activation is very little. Um, and a mop and bucket is significant.
We do know of um occasions where an inmate has self started a fire manual system has been used, the fire's been dealt with, the inmate has been removed from the cell and and held close to the cell under guard. The cell has been checked to make sure that there's nothing in there burning and anything damaged removed. And the inmate put straight back in the cell. Um, because there's no reason why they can't go straight back in. It's a little damp around the edges, possibly, but it's habitable.
And then, you know, whatever's been burnt would be provided as new. So you don't have the issue of moving water. Um, again, given a little sort of historic information of where water mist came from, it, it was developed from the marine industry originally. Um, one of those reasons is because if you have a ship on fire and you pump lots of water into the ship, eventually you'll capsize or sink the ship, which does put the fire out, but isn't the desired outcome. So water mist was very successful at using small amounts of water to successfully fight the fire and not destabilise the ship, or add to any risks on it.
Exactly the same principle applies in buildings and prisons is a classic example of that.
We do know of um occasions where an inmate has self started a fire manual system has been used, the fire's been dealt with, the inmate has been removed from the cell and and held close to the cell under guard. The cell has been checked to make sure that there's nothing in there burning and anything damaged removed. And the inmate put straight back in the cell. Um, because there's no reason why they can't go straight back in. It's a little damp around the edges, possibly, but it's habitable.
And then, you know, whatever's been burnt would be provided as new. So you don't have the issue of moving water. Um, again, given a little sort of historic information of where water mist came from, it, it was developed from the marine industry originally. Um, one of those reasons is because if you have a ship on fire and you pump lots of water into the ship, eventually you'll capsize or sink the ship, which does put the fire out, but isn't the desired outcome. So water mist was very successful at using small amounts of water to successfully fight the fire and not destabilise the ship, or add to any risks on it.
Exactly the same principle applies in buildings and prisons is a classic example of that.
12:16
12:16
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
I'm not aware of any that have conventional sprinklers. Um, so there's about 90% of prisons in the UK have water mist systems in one form or another, be they manual or fixed in cell. Um, the majority of fixed in cell systems are in the prisons that have been built within the last five years. So the new Titan prisons have fixed in cell, um some of the refurbished prisons, um new prisons that are coming online soon will have fixed in cell. That's the preferred approach from the MoJ to, to protect.
12:16
12:16
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
They do. Yeah. Um Victorian prisons have water mist. But it's um a combination. And again it's where we developed products specifically for the risk. So original product would have been a, a hose reel with pipe running all the way through the building from a centralised pump. Um, when we were installing systems about 20 years ago in Lancaster Castle, we found the walls to be quite hard and extremely thick and very difficult to get through. So we developed, um, standalone equipment.
So hose reels that have their own pump mounted in the bottom of the hose reel so that you don't have to connect them up to a ring main. You put them where a traditional hose reel was. So you've already got water there and you just connect power to them. And the the solution was born from that. So it's about being able to adapt to the product, to this specific risk has been a key part of what we've done over the last 20 years, working very closely with the MoJ and their technical people to make sure we give them what they actually need and what they can use.
Side that we would still like to see fully automatic water mist systems in every part of the cell, every part of the building. But accepting that funding is unlikely to ever allow that.
So hose reels that have their own pump mounted in the bottom of the hose reel so that you don't have to connect them up to a ring main. You put them where a traditional hose reel was. So you've already got water there and you just connect power to them. And the the solution was born from that. So it's about being able to adapt to the product, to this specific risk has been a key part of what we've done over the last 20 years, working very closely with the MoJ and their technical people to make sure we give them what they actually need and what they can use.
Side that we would still like to see fully automatic water mist systems in every part of the cell, every part of the building. But accepting that funding is unlikely to ever allow that.
12:18
12:18
12:18
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
Thank you. I'm tempted to ask whether there is anything that water mist cannot do. But perhaps as part of a more general question I could ask this. Fires, of course, come in different kinds. Um, they have different causes. Some are fires in individual cells. I imagine it may be that sometimes a number of fires are set around a prison estate, perhaps at a similar time, thinking about control, suppression and extinguishing of fires. Do you see any blind spots in our prisons?I mean, do you see any scenarios that really we are particularly badly equipped to deal with?Um, and if so, do you have a remedy for that?It's probably water mist.
12:19
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
Kitchens. So kitchens where you've got deep fat fries. Use wet chemical or dry powder systems, which are they have. Testing and approval. So they do work, but they're not particularly effective. The risk of re-ignition is quite high because they don't cool the oil. Um, and also once they've gone off the kitchen is closed. I do know of a story where a prison that had a fire in the kitchen, their back up plan was to go out and buy 300 Big Mac and chips.
If you were an inmate, that might be a preferable way to get a much nicer meal of an evening. Possibly. So I'm not saying that does happen, but that's an example. So putting water mist on deep fat fries, which seems slightly counter-intuitive. Why would we put water on fat?The way it works is if you put water into oil, water is heavier than oil. And if the oil is above 100 degrees, which the cooking temperature of oil is typically about 130 degrees, it expands very quickly and makes about 1700l of steam from one litre of water.
They called it a fat explosion, but it's actually a fat eruption because you just push the fat out. If you spray atomized water over the oil, the heat from the oil converts the droplets to steam and you cool them suppressed, and you actually bring the oil temperature down to below 100 degrees before any water touches it. So we have testing and approval for that. So that would be the thing that I'd love to see installed in prisons, no matter who it comes from, because it would be a significant safety advantage for that application.
If you were an inmate, that might be a preferable way to get a much nicer meal of an evening. Possibly. So I'm not saying that does happen, but that's an example. So putting water mist on deep fat fries, which seems slightly counter-intuitive. Why would we put water on fat?The way it works is if you put water into oil, water is heavier than oil. And if the oil is above 100 degrees, which the cooking temperature of oil is typically about 130 degrees, it expands very quickly and makes about 1700l of steam from one litre of water.
They called it a fat explosion, but it's actually a fat eruption because you just push the fat out. If you spray atomized water over the oil, the heat from the oil converts the droplets to steam and you cool them suppressed, and you actually bring the oil temperature down to below 100 degrees before any water touches it. So we have testing and approval for that. So that would be the thing that I'd love to see installed in prisons, no matter who it comes from, because it would be a significant safety advantage for that application.
12:21
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
Yeah, I. Think if and not detracting from I mean, we have water mist and sprinkler companies within the association and support both. There are situations where one is not appropriate. Um, and you can use sprinklers on, on for example, um, deep fat fryer fires. However for larger spaces, water mist is not as effective a solution. It works very well in those contained spaces and that you get within a prison cell and is an excellent solution. But for larger areas, particularly with higher ceilings, it's not as effective because, um, you can't maintain that pressure.
That's so important for it to work in a large environment. I don't know if you want.
That's so important for it to work in a large environment. I don't know if you want.
12:22
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
And high storage, especially if you've got um, storage in racking. Um, which, which you will have in quite a lot of parts of the building because you've got, you've got bedding, you've got, you've got mattresses that have to be stored there. So you've got, you've got large storage areas which need to be protected where sprinklers have got good track record, um. But I think those areas need to be. Addressed. Um, quite early on. Um, because there's also management that could be put in place as far as the, the storage of the risk, you know, limited the amount that you store or store it in a particular way that makes it less of a risk.
That's the kind of, that's what we like, we like working with clients to, to say, you know, well, have you thought about storing it in a different way?Um, which means that you don't need such a high category system to protect it.
That's the kind of, that's what we like, we like working with clients to, to say, you know, well, have you thought about storing it in a different way?Um, which means that you don't need such a high category system to protect it.
12:23
12:23
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
I was involved in a number of detention centres that were built. Over ten years ago, and that was the kind of discussions we had there. The sprinklers were installed throughout, you know, in the cells, in the storage areas and in the communal areas. That's the kind of conversations we had there is it's the way in which they stored things. Um, yeah, it's far easier for them to store it on this particular type of system rather than that type of system, because it's easier to fire protect that type of storage system.
Um, so it was looking at it in that method as well.
Um, so it was looking at it in that method as well.
12:24
12:24
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
Systems can. Can can fight multiple fires. All systems are designed to operate to a maximum area of operation at a at a maximum performance, as long as those multiple areas do not overwhelm the system for. For the combined performance that it's been designed to. You're. You're okay. Um, if you're, if you're so so say with, uh, one type of sprinkler system is designed to operate five mil density over a 260 square meter area. Okay.
And it's designed for one fire intervention. Simple interventions that added up to more than 260, you're overwhelming the system. So the system wouldn't be designed for that. Um, but what you're hoping to do is you're hoping to attack those fires, um, at the, at the incipient stage of the fire. So it doesn't propagate. And over two to a high area coverage. That's, and that's where the, the automatic systems come into their own in that they, they automatically fight the fire while it's still in a small.
Condition, rather than waiting for it to become a large condition where you have to then use a huge amount of water.
And it's designed for one fire intervention. Simple interventions that added up to more than 260, you're overwhelming the system. So the system wouldn't be designed for that. Um, but what you're hoping to do is you're hoping to attack those fires, um, at the, at the incipient stage of the fire. So it doesn't propagate. And over two to a high area coverage. That's, and that's where the, the automatic systems come into their own in that they, they automatically fight the fire while it's still in a small.
Condition, rather than waiting for it to become a large condition where you have to then use a huge amount of water.
12:25
12:25
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Just one issue that none of you have picked up. Yes. In terms of sort of the design of system is the issue of doors. Um, because in a theatre or whatever, we have, fire doors can't get from the outside, but you can get from the inside out. Clearly that's not something that they recommend to have in prisons. Um, because that would be slightly problematic. Um, but the other problem they have in prisons is prisoners deliberately blocking doors.
So if there's a fire, um, people have difficulty getting out if prisoners decide to keep them stuck in. And so they have designed the anti barricade doors, but they're not very often installed. What's your view about that if you have one.
So if there's a fire, um, people have difficulty getting out if prisoners decide to keep them stuck in. And so they have designed the anti barricade doors, but they're not very often installed. What's your view about that if you have one.
12:26
12:26
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
It's mainly. Fire doors are mainly used for smoke control and for evacuation. So it's to safeguard the people when it comes to extinguishing systems. We don't although we we do require a level of. Fire resistance for compartment walls. Um, the fire doors don't really come into it. We don't we don't look at fire doors as being part of the strategy for suppressing a fire.
12:27
12:27
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Yes. But but that's that doesn't form part of the suppression system that forms part of the life safety side of the strategy that's looked at in a prison. Um, in the same way as if you need to evacuate, how you evacuate the people, that's that side of the system of the strategy, the fire suppression side of the strategy doesn't take that into account.
12:28
12:28
12:28
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
I think in reality, you know, whichever suppression system was, was used within the facility and you can blend them, um, if appropriate, but that's just going to, that's nothing but a benefit to the problem you've described. Because whichever side of the door you're on, if there's full building protection, the suppression system will have operated and the, um, your life is more tenable because of the fire suppression because they'll suppress that fire. I think the issue comes in when you try to fight the old way, you know, through a.
A hole in the door or using a portable system and fighting it through the door, you have to open the door. The barricade, the barricade might affect it. The suppression system is likely to overcome that from a. Barricading the door perspective. I'm sure people could find ways of barricading the sprinkler head if they so wished, but it's just as it's reducing the risk associated with the door. That's very helpful.
A hole in the door or using a portable system and fighting it through the door, you have to open the door. The barricade, the barricade might affect it. The suppression system is likely to overcome that from a. Barricading the door perspective. I'm sure people could find ways of barricading the sprinkler head if they so wished, but it's just as it's reducing the risk associated with the door. That's very helpful.
12:29
12:29
Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Thank you very much. And I think, um, that quite a lot of, um what I'm going to ask has already been covered, but the majority of injuries come from smoke rather than fire. We know that. But how do prisons deal with smoke suppression?I mean, Derek touched on this in response to the first question. And it's been a thread running through. But if you've got anything to add on this, how we deal with smoke suppression to avoid injuries.
12:30
12:30
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
My opportunity. Thank you very much. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. So the testing that we did with the building research establishment in Watford in 2008, I think it was um, demonstrated that the product that's still in use in the prisons at the moment, the water mist product does combat the toxic gases and smoke effectively. So you arrive at a life tenable atmosphere within the cell. Um, we've subsequently done further testing more recently, um, not in the UK, but for another country who are using water mist already and would like to um, increase the fire load in the cell if we call it that.
Um, so we've repeated the tests with a higher fire load to the same effects, um where we are able to control, suppress the fire, but more importantly provide a life, sustainable life, tenable atmosphere within that cell for a minimum of five minutes. So it's five minutes and ongoing. Um, and that's been the crucial thing in all fires. I mean, as I think you, you already understand, it's smoke that kills, not the fire. You're overcome by smoke and fumes and rendered unconscious long before you know the flames going to get to you.
So that's the really crucial part of it, which I think then echoes what Richard and Alasdair have been saying about automatic detection being critical, because the quicker you have detection and can react to the fire, um, the quicker you'll deal with the smoke.
Um, so we've repeated the tests with a higher fire load to the same effects, um where we are able to control, suppress the fire, but more importantly provide a life, sustainable life, tenable atmosphere within that cell for a minimum of five minutes. So it's five minutes and ongoing. Um, and that's been the crucial thing in all fires. I mean, as I think you, you already understand, it's smoke that kills, not the fire. You're overcome by smoke and fumes and rendered unconscious long before you know the flames going to get to you.
So that's the really crucial part of it, which I think then echoes what Richard and Alasdair have been saying about automatic detection being critical, because the quicker you have detection and can react to the fire, um, the quicker you'll deal with the smoke.
12:32
12:32
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Why you would not build suppression into new build prisons. Look at the possibility of retrofitting which system would be most appropriate for that premises, and start the process of retrofitting. Um, but certainly that that risk based approach with all new prisons definitely having suppression, I cannot see an argument for not doing it other than ignoring the risk to life.
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