Northern Ireland Affairs Committee
Monday 29th June 2026
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16:01
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Welcome to the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee. Um. Welcome to the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee. Um inquiry on economic growth. Uh, this is our ministerial session today. So thank you very much to Blair McDougall, the MP. For small business and economic transformation from the Department for Business and Trade. Also to Minister Matthew Patrick um from the Northern Ireland Office. So thank you very much. And we're also joined by Sally Jones, deputy director of the Industrial Strategy implementation Partnerships and place from DBT.
And Paul Flynn, deputy director of the task force. Um of the Windsor Framework Task Force in the Northern Ireland Office. Weaknesses in the economy. However, it also did acknowledge that responsibility for skills, energy planning and infrastructure are devolved. Northern Ireland's barriers to growth.
And Paul Flynn, deputy director of the task force. Um of the Windsor Framework Task Force in the Northern Ireland Office. Weaknesses in the economy. However, it also did acknowledge that responsibility for skills, energy planning and infrastructure are devolved. Northern Ireland's barriers to growth.
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16:03
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Um thank you chair. There's you mentioned a couple of issues there. And you're right that there are devolved matters, but it's really clear whether it's myself or Secretary of State or Baroness Anderson. Um, we're not here to sort of pass the buck when it comes to these things where we can work with the executive, um, on helping drive the breadth of skills. Because I think I mean, I know you and your committee have been right across Northern Ireland and you'll see it for yourself.
The depth of skills is evident, but there's not always the breadth that businesses can take advantage of. So our role is not to sit by and say, yes, we've got a check for a record settlement more than ever before in the history of devolution, and we'll just watch what you do with it. Our job is to kind of actively engage with that. That's why, whether it's city and growth deals, whether it's the continued engagement with the DBT and other parts of government, we're really pushing to help Northern Ireland.
The depth of skills is evident, but there's not always the breadth that businesses can take advantage of. So our role is not to sit by and say, yes, we've got a check for a record settlement more than ever before in the history of devolution, and we'll just watch what you do with it. Our job is to kind of actively engage with that. That's why, whether it's city and growth deals, whether it's the continued engagement with the DBT and other parts of government, we're really pushing to help Northern Ireland.
16:04
16:04
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think the metrics that all of us would naturally look at in terms of the growth in Northern Ireland, the growth of businesses in Northern Ireland, the employment opportunities, the wage growth, they are really important things that every one of us will look at. But we'll also judge ourselves on some of the inputs. And I'm sure later in this session you'll be asking me about some of that in terms of the one stop shop and how we're going to support some of the businesses that are trying to grow their, their, their books.
Um, so I think it's, it's inputs and the broader outputs that everyone would recognise.
Um, so I think it's, it's inputs and the broader outputs that everyone would recognise.
16:05
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
It was funny. One of the measures that you highlighted in your response is the Public Sector Transformation Fund, and it appears to us that the executive have surrendered budget in this year's main estimates allocation specifically for this fund. What challenge do you offer to the executive for public sector transformation.
16:05
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Public sector transformation?It's so apt that we're being asked it in this inquiry, because you don't get the level of economic growth you want without the public services that can back it up. When you are speak to businesses. And if one of your team is trying to focus on when they're next going to get a hospital appointment and they might be waiting years, that's not good for their productivity. It's not good for their contribution. So that's why UK put £235 million into the transformation fund.
It's why we work really closely. The Transformation Board is chaired by our permanent secretary, because we've got to turn around some of the services in Northern Ireland to deliver better for those that live there.
It's why we work really closely. The Transformation Board is chaired by our permanent secretary, because we've got to turn around some of the services in Northern Ireland to deliver better for those that live there.
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16:06
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Direct funding. So there's issues around planning, for instance, is devolved and we're putting a direct pot into hiring more training more planners. So quicker decisions can be taken so that there isn't the backlog that we've seen and was referenced. I know in the Secretary of State's reply to you. So it's also the case that I, I respect totally the devolution agreement. I think it's incredible. Um, that does not mean that we don't work collaboratively, that we don't engage, that we don't provide support and challenge where necessary.
And we will always do that. And I think that's borne out in the conversations I have with executive members across Northern Ireland. They value that engagement. We get to bring expertise back and forth for what it's worth, for everyone's benefit.
And we will always do that. And I think that's borne out in the conversations I have with executive members across Northern Ireland. They value that engagement. We get to bring expertise back and forth for what it's worth, for everyone's benefit.
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16:07
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Okay, thank you, thank you. Chair. Can I push you a bit?Matthew, you told the committee previously that your first responsibility was to lead on economic growth. We suggested you in our interim report that you set out an economic vision with some smart objectives. Then I come back to us and said, that's not realistic. Why not?You can't just measure inputs. You've got to measure what how effective those inputs are. Why is it unrealistic to have some Smart objectives?
16:08
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Um, look, it's really fair challenge, but I think the reality is a separate vision with separate metrics and separate stats from the Northern Ireland Office could could frankly muddle things. We've got a government that has a very clear agenda around growth. We all we all know what the metrics are for when it's working. And actually, for what it's worth, let's make sure it's on record. The economy in Northern Ireland is booming, is very positive, and we need to make sure that the opportunities continue and are felt right across Northern Ireland.
But I don't want to for a second suggest that it's not in a really um it's already strong with a real opportunity to grow further. But there are metrics that all of us would naturally understand, right?Employment rates, wage growth, GDP that would make sense to you, me, and every one of our constituents and everyone in Northern Ireland. I think us stepping in and creating another set of metrics and another set of tests might muddy that.
But I don't want to for a second suggest that it's not in a really um it's already strong with a real opportunity to grow further. But there are metrics that all of us would naturally understand, right?Employment rates, wage growth, GDP that would make sense to you, me, and every one of our constituents and everyone in Northern Ireland. I think us stepping in and creating another set of metrics and another set of tests might muddy that.
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16:10
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I'm sure that it could. I think the work that we are doing to ensure that there are there's support to grow those those businesses across Northern Ireland. I mentioned before the city and growth deals. That's hundreds of millions of pounds of public money that will invest in infrastructure and skills and opportunities right across Northern Ireland. We will clearly be judging the success of those city and growth deals based on each one of them. And as you would totally expect.
Right?So separate.
Right?So separate.
16:10
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
How are you judging them?Unless you're telling me what your target is, I don't know if it's been a success or not. Or are you saying any fractional increase will be enough?Because as you say, hundreds of millions of pounds being spent, surely you should have an idea of what you're trying to achieve with that, rather than some sort of amorphous idea that things will improve. Surely you're going to be tighter than that.
16:11
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, so if we go specifically the Belfast Region city deal, right?It's £1 billion. So it's £350 million from UK government, £350 million from the executive, and also money coming in directly from businesses to academia plays a crucial role in taking advantage of these things. The input of the Advanced Manufacturing Innovation Centre right, the opportunity to suddenly have a base that all businesses across Northern Ireland can tap into and utilise, benefit from that expertise is clearly going to benefit those businesses.
16:11
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Sounds great, but unless you have a target you're working to, how do we know whether or not you've succeeded?You've invested all that money. Surely you say, look, we're investing this money. This is what we're trying to achieve. A minimum of blah, blah, blah, on the on the various metrics that exist. Why not have that as a target?
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16:12
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, I'm not in charge of individual deals. Right. We've co-funded, we collaborate with the executive. That's really important work. Um, but it is clear that you want to see businesses have more opportunities. You want to see better employment opportunities, better paid jobs, more jobs. These are clearly the things we would like to see. I don't think saying that this is the specific bar from the Northern Ireland Office's perspective is is necessary to hold to account some of these funds that we're putting money into.
We work closely with the executive. They clearly will have some of their own metrics as well. And that's our job, is to drive economic growth.
We work closely with the executive. They clearly will have some of their own metrics as well. And that's our job, is to drive economic growth.
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16:13
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Sorry. Thank you very much, Minister Patrick, just in regards picking up on Mr. Caller's points there. So are you telling this committee that you accept the executive's targets for growth, for investment, for unemployment, rather than Neo creating their own or measuring their own?And what do you do if the executive isn't meeting those targets, having received government money?
16:14
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think, look, there are shared ambitions, right?Which is it's really important that we we have economic growth in Northern Ireland. There are huge positives in the economy. We need to build on them. We need to remove other barriers. We need to build on them. They are shared ambitions. Whether you are in UK government or the Northern Ireland Executive, that's an ambition to see good jobs, more jobs. It's an ambition to see more opportunities.
For the apprentices. When I'm visiting businesses right across Northern Ireland who are taking advantage of the opportunities from that collaborative working, they really value that. So that's the focus that we've got, which is to try and support those aims that we all share.
For the apprentices. When I'm visiting businesses right across Northern Ireland who are taking advantage of the opportunities from that collaborative working, they really value that. So that's the focus that we've got, which is to try and support those aims that we all share.
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16:15
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
We haven't we have not set a very specific. This metric has to be at this level or this won't have been achieved. But you can see from, as I mentioned, city and growth, the defence growth deal as well. There is a real opportunity to measure the outputs of this. And clearly that will be in the jobs created. The businesses saved, the businesses created the economic output. These are the metrics that we will all be judged on, right?Whether whether they're set by the Northern Ireland Office or not.
They're the metrics we will be judged on.
They're the metrics we will be judged on.
16:16
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
All of us. Everyone who is committed to growth in Northern Ireland will naturally be judged on those you. You can't set metrics that aren't applicable to people and aren't recognised by people. I think every single person I speak to, if they're asking, has economic growth been successful?They're going to be thinking, are there jobs, good jobs, well-paying jobs?Are there businesses that are thriving and booming?And they will be the tests really.
16:17
16:17
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
We'll always be seeking that right. That's why whether take the city and growth deals, there's a huge amount of engagement that goes into those. Take the transformation board we were talking about before. There's not an expectation that the money goes in and we walk away and think, well, I hope that worked. Of course, you're every single penny of public money you pour over and make sure it can deliver the best opportunities for people and and right across Northern Ireland, clearly.
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16:18
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I'm going to butt in as well. No sorry sorry. Um because Robin. Brought up apprenticeships when we were at the Balmoral show. Um we heard from small businesses saying how, how difficult it was for them to take on young people. And while, yes, it's predominantly devolved, they weren't feeling the benefit of the levy. So I was wondering if you were doing any work around that.
16:19
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think the executive hear that really clearly, um, that I regularly do business roundtables. I sit down with small businesses, I do chambers of commerce. I in Derry Londonderry, I did the angel investors as well. You hear right across the board in Northern Ireland about this. Um, and I'm, I know it's a well rehearsed, um concern that the executive themselves will have heard, but clearly it is a matter for the executive. They, it is for them to work out what they do with that, that Levy and I know they have regular engagement with businesses on the back of it.
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16:20
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, if we take just one example. Um, because because I think it was established about a year ago. Um so clearly you've got to establish this and you've got to get things up and running, but what it's focusing on are some really important issues in Northern Ireland. It won't be lost to this committee. The discrepancy in access to research and development funding in Northern Ireland. I hear it in businesses, um right across Northern Ireland where they feel they don't get a fair chance at some of this funding.
Now that's been a topic of discussion recently in the coordination group. I really welcome that. But it's not simply left to the coordination group either. Um, there's it's directly being raised by Secretary of state and myself with counterparts in UK government. I was sat with the Minister for the economy just a month or so ago discussing how we can understand this because and I'm sure the committee will have views themselves. But understanding why, for instance, on the research and development shortfall, why is it the case that Northern Ireland doesn't get comparatively the same?Is it because the nature of the bids.
Is it because of the nature of the structure of the funds?So we're doing some work with the executive to to ascertain that. So we are in the strongest possible position to kind of remedy that going forward. But that is the type of focus that this coordination group is giving. And I really welcome that.
Now that's been a topic of discussion recently in the coordination group. I really welcome that. But it's not simply left to the coordination group either. Um, there's it's directly being raised by Secretary of state and myself with counterparts in UK government. I was sat with the Minister for the economy just a month or so ago discussing how we can understand this because and I'm sure the committee will have views themselves. But understanding why, for instance, on the research and development shortfall, why is it the case that Northern Ireland doesn't get comparatively the same?Is it because the nature of the bids.
Is it because of the nature of the structure of the funds?So we're doing some work with the executive to to ascertain that. So we are in the strongest possible position to kind of remedy that going forward. But that is the type of focus that this coordination group is giving. And I really welcome that.
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16:23
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
The work that falls out of that is obviously taken forward by officials. And the kind of issue I mentioned earlier about research and development. That's a prime example, which is on the back of conversations we've been having. It's been raised in that group, but simultaneously we've been raising that with ministers. We've been raising that with UK government ministers and Northern Ireland executive ministers. So the work is, I suppose, a team effort.
16:24
16:24
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I. I meet with them regularly. Um I have sat down with whether it's the Minister for infrastructure. Well, all of them I have spoken to about this. Right. Um and it's been very helpful to have those conversations. Public service transformation we talked about before as well. Like you can't have one without the other. They go hand in hand. And so being able to kind of drill down and understand in more detail some of the issues to bring some of the expertise that exists in UK government to Northern Ireland to share that, but also some of the stuff that's happening in Northern Ireland that's ahead of where we are, uh, in the rest of the UK straight here, which has been really helpful.
So we've got quite a collaborative relationship with regular meetings. And economic growth is clearly centre of those.
So we've got quite a collaborative relationship with regular meetings. And economic growth is clearly centre of those.
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16:27
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Thank you. Chair. Um, Minister Padraig, you mentioned there just when you were finishing Miss Murray's comment there about you met the specific minister you mentioned was the Minister of Infrastructure, the Northern Ireland Office annual report noted ongoing work with the executive actually on the development of an infrastructure strategy. But your response to our report didn't provide any further information. So can you update us what recent progress have you made with the executive actually on developing an infrastructure astrology?
16:27
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Clearly, because that's devolved. That's for the that's for the executive to take forward. But I have met with the minister. But and I think it's recognized right across the executive that that is important to get growth. It's an important thing. One of the issues that we have around infrastructure is planning, um, and enough planning officers to be able to make the decisions so that things can get built and houses can be built and businesses can benefit from that.
And the consequence of not having that is pretty clear, right?That does hold up growth. That's why one of the things that we've invested in as part of the transformation Fund is to, to fund more planning officers and to make sure that training is available so that decisions can be reached more quickly. I think that's really important. So that's us supporting the executive in in their mission to improve those outcomes.
And the consequence of not having that is pretty clear, right?That does hold up growth. That's why one of the things that we've invested in as part of the transformation Fund is to, to fund more planning officers and to make sure that training is available so that decisions can be reached more quickly. I think that's really important. So that's us supporting the executive in in their mission to improve those outcomes.
16:28
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And I get that. Um, but it was actually your annual report actually noted ongoing work with the executive on the development, specifically on an infrastructure strategy. You've said it's devolved. So are you working with the Northern Ireland Executive to develop an infrastructure strategy or not?Well.
16:29
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
As I said, when I met with the minister, any information we can share, any expertise we can share, any lessons learned that we can share across. We'll always do so. Officials work really closely with counterparts across the executive, and it's really important to me that where. Because because let's be clear, the issue of not building infrastructure is not unique in Northern Ireland. It's been an issue that our the rest of the UK has faced for. I think about 14 years or maybe 16 now.
Um, and we've got some catching up to do. So all of us, every part of the United Kingdom right now is trying to go forward at pace to recover those lost years. And so where there's things happening in UK government that can be shared across into the Northern Ireland Executive so that their systems are faster and more able to take advantage of those opportunities. We will share that. And clearly, if it's vice versa, we welcome that too.
Um, and we've got some catching up to do. So all of us, every part of the United Kingdom right now is trying to go forward at pace to recover those lost years. And so where there's things happening in UK government that can be shared across into the Northern Ireland Executive so that their systems are faster and more able to take advantage of those opportunities. We will share that. And clearly, if it's vice versa, we welcome that too.
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16:30
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think they sort of I think they are sort of the same thing, right?Which is if you share best practice, if you share what's working and what's going well, that's, that's contributing to an infrastructure strategy that's going to be built by, by the executive because it's, as I say, a devolved matter. So I think they're the same thing.
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Thank you. Chair. Minister. Patrick. Matt. Um, but the NIO. Annual report 2425 said it would be publishing, uh, an economic strategy. You don't know when that is. And if you don't. Fair enough. But are there any tidbits you could give us about what will be in that to get our salivary juices flowing?
16:32
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Um, I think quite, quite, quite honestly, it's not about having a separate vision and a separate strategy. It's about recognizing that there is a huge opportunities across Northern Ireland and where we can contribute, um, and make sure that we are investing appropriately and supporting with advice and information that we do. So I don't think it's about creating our own separate strategic vision.
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
I mean, what, what I mean how, how how do you find it in terms of I'll be coming to Minister McDougall in a second about this, but in terms of what evidence is that UK government departments are prioritising economic development in Northern Ireland?Are they are they chomping at the bit to continue the metaphor?
16:34
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think so, I mean, Minister will speak for himself on this, but I think you are in government here and you look at Northern Ireland, which is a fast growing part of the United Kingdom, an economy doing well with really exciting cyber security opportunities, with really exciting, advanced manufacturing, with the creative industries, with defence. We had the defence growth deal, um, announced just a few months ago. I think there is a lot of support coming directly from UK government, and I think there's a lot of interest as well in the Northern Ireland economy.
But Minister will add I'm sure himself.
But Minister will add I'm sure himself.
16:34
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Uh, I mean essentially chair what what he said um uh, I think, I think the key thing for Northern Ireland is that there's nothing but opportunity there. The overlap between the sectors we've identified within the industrial strategy. Um, and actually the sector as the executive, have identified within their economic plans as well, um show that there is a consensus. We know where we're, we're pointing at with the sectors that Minister Patrick mentioned. Um, as you mentioned, we've got the investment zone.
We've got the um, the defence deal, we've got the local innovation partnership funding as well. Um, and there certainly I think that sense of urgency and ambition there, and I think in the various reporting that we are doing to mark the first anniversary of the industrial strategy, um, you will, you will see that, uh, running through those pages, Minister.
We've got the um, the defence deal, we've got the local innovation partnership funding as well. Um, and there certainly I think that sense of urgency and ambition there, and I think in the various reporting that we are doing to mark the first anniversary of the industrial strategy, um, you will, you will see that, uh, running through those pages, Minister.
16:35
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
McDougall. Blair. Um, I mean, there's no more one in the room, more expert than you in devolved administrations as somebody who kept the union together in 2014, my as leader of the Better Together campaign for the nation. And we are grateful to you for that. Before you were in this place, do you think it works as well as it could do devolved administrations with central departments in Whitehall?
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Second and your, and your part of the world. Um, uh, and I think that's healthy, but if I can give an example, um, I mean, I meet quarterly with the economic ministers from each of the devolved nations, um, and then meet bilaterally as well. I think one of the things around the industrial strategy that has worked with devolution is on the front of the industrial strategy. It's got the UK government sort of crest, but we're really convening and curating, um a lot of this, this is a consensus position across different levels of government in the UK, but also with industry in every part of the country as well.
Um, and I think, uh, I think one of the reasons I think that the industrial strategy is working is that it is a beast of a devolved, um, United Kingdom, um, rather than highly centralised.
Um, and I think, uh, I think one of the reasons I think that the industrial strategy is working is that it is a beast of a devolved, um, United Kingdom, um, rather than highly centralised.
16:36
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
And in a previous. Thank you for that. Very impressive answer. In a previous life, you obviously worked to a certain extent with the member for Makerfield and even more closely with his potential chief of staff. Um, how do you think policy might change in that direction if we see a change of leadership in that direction?
16:37
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
I mean, I'm, I was I was going to say I'm watching and listening to these developments as keenly as you probably slightly more keenly, um, than. Than you, um, uh, I had a real sense from that speech earlier on of, um, and I'll be at risk of mixing metaphors here of a telescope being turned round where within the industrial strategy, there has always been a real focus on place. Uh, making sure that. Those clusters that exist around different parts of the UK. Um, are.
Recognised and resourced. Um, I think what you'll see is someone who's been at the sort of users end of that focusing on it. And this is where I'll mix metaphors. I don't think what you'll see is a sort of change of change of destination in the satnav. I think what you'll see is a putting down of the foot on the accelerator. Um around how do we working with different levels of government across the UK and with um industry have, have an even greater sense of urgency around supporting those clusters.
Recognised and resourced. Um, I think what you'll see is someone who's been at the sort of users end of that focusing on it. And this is where I'll mix metaphors. I don't think what you'll see is a sort of change of change of destination in the satnav. I think what you'll see is a putting down of the foot on the accelerator. Um around how do we working with different levels of government across the UK and with um industry have, have an even greater sense of urgency around supporting those clusters.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Thank you. I'm sorry to break up the Andy Burnham loving, but um, let's let's. On the current government rather than a putative one. Um, Mr. McDougall, you've you've given us a flavour or an indication of the implementation of the industrial strategy as it relates to Northern Ireland. Um, just as a starter for ten. Is there anything you want to sort of add or embellish to give this committee a flavour of the sort of day to day route map to implementation and the mechanics that go that sit behind it?
16:38
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
I mean, I'll give you there's obviously an official level, um, conversations, um, all the time. I mean, one of, one of the things about the industrial strategy is it is by its nature sort of expansive and touching on, on lots of different parts of the economic landscape to touch on a few of them. Um, I mean, my officials work very closely with Queen's, for example, to try to make sure that we are properly abreast of the innovation pipeline that's coming through, um, in Northern Ireland. And that in turn is linked to the work that my department has recently announced on improving the service that we give to scale ups, um within the UK, we're very good in this country at putting our arm around.
Overseas investors, welcoming them, reassuring them that we will, you know, smooth out regulatory barriers or problems with accessing talent or whatever it is, planning issues. We're often less good at doing that with our home grown companies. So there's an example of, of, of the official level there being a relationship and that feeding into that, that bigger strategy. Um, but Minister Patrick spoke about, you know, trying to improve, for example, the pipeline or the amount of funding going in into innovation, um, in, in Northern Ireland.
Um, when I met with Minister Archibald the other day, I was stressing again, within the context of that scale up conversation, our keenness to work with her to make sure that we are identifying those investable propositions in Northern Ireland. Um, and we agreed to work closely together on that. And I think you can see the Northern Ireland Executive taking an increasing interest in the UK. Re um. Bids.
Overseas investors, welcoming them, reassuring them that we will, you know, smooth out regulatory barriers or problems with accessing talent or whatever it is, planning issues. We're often less good at doing that with our home grown companies. So there's an example of, of, of the official level there being a relationship and that feeding into that, that bigger strategy. Um, but Minister Patrick spoke about, you know, trying to improve, for example, the pipeline or the amount of funding going in into innovation, um, in, in Northern Ireland.
Um, when I met with Minister Archibald the other day, I was stressing again, within the context of that scale up conversation, our keenness to work with her to make sure that we are identifying those investable propositions in Northern Ireland. Um, and we agreed to work closely together on that. And I think you can see the Northern Ireland Executive taking an increasing interest in the UK. Re um. Bids.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Yes. Um, I think, I think you're trying to do two things with the industrial strategy. One, you have to have a long term set of commitments. You have to say to the world, this is the basis on which we are doing business. Here is what we think we have to offer the world and our sort of competitive advantage. Um, and that has to be long term, has to be sustained in order for the business investment to have confidence in what you're doing.
Um, but they are also looking for short term signals. Um, they're looking for that, that, that sense of, um, prioritising. Getting things done. So you have to do a little bit of those. The other thing I'd say is I think, I think you're right about um strategy sometimes not being as. Not coming, coming to life off of, off of the page. Um, and it's important again to say that the industrial strategy itself is an iteration of other things.
So as we, for example, have, have developed the advanced manufacturing sector plan, which sort of unpacks part of the industrial strategy. Has, has taken into account the Northern Ireland executive's advanced manufacturing strategy as well. Um, so these are sort of dynamic relationships, but you'll see us unpacking it with the sector plans, unpacking it with the jobs plans, which are under way at the moment as well.
Um, but they are also looking for short term signals. Um, they're looking for that, that, that sense of, um, prioritising. Getting things done. So you have to do a little bit of those. The other thing I'd say is I think, I think you're right about um strategy sometimes not being as. Not coming, coming to life off of, off of the page. Um, and it's important again to say that the industrial strategy itself is an iteration of other things.
So as we, for example, have, have developed the advanced manufacturing sector plan, which sort of unpacks part of the industrial strategy. Has, has taken into account the Northern Ireland executive's advanced manufacturing strategy as well. Um, so these are sort of dynamic relationships, but you'll see us unpacking it with the sector plans, unpacking it with the jobs plans, which are under way at the moment as well.
16:42
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Okay. That's very helpful. Um, I'm sure, I certainly hope you will agree with me that there's two things. Usually the business needs amongst other things, but clarity and simplicity is often paramount. And you may be aware, but we've heard concerns from businesses about the complexity of having different strategies put forward by um Westminster and then by the executive. At the end of the day, we're talking about public moneys. And so avoiding duplication, maximising bang for the buck at the the obvious aspirations.
How are you as a minister and then the wider government ensuring that the strategy sector plans complement the sectoral plans set out by the executive and not trying to pull people either in. Opposite directions, or are duplicating and overlapping?
How are you as a minister and then the wider government ensuring that the strategy sector plans complement the sectoral plans set out by the executive and not trying to pull people either in. Opposite directions, or are duplicating and overlapping?
16:43
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Well, it's it's by a continuing that, um, uh, that sense of it being a collaborative project or officials are constantly in contact with them about that. I would also say in terms of, I understand and agree with what you're saying about the danger of, of, of complexity. If you are just a business or someone, someone, an investor, um, I think this is where it's important to remember that our job as government is to make sure is to translate that into digestible advice, either for investors through the office for investment, um, or just through improving our business advice service and making it a little bit more, more focused, a little bit more single front door.
So you see that through the business growth service and the advice that we offer to businesses. So they don't have to disentangle what are rightly often quite complex strategies. Um, you see it through the scale up support that we're giving, which will give an enhanced service to people to see it through things like the British Business Bank finance finder and things like that. So we're trying to make it as simple as possible. Um, while being sort of, I guess, an unapologetically sophisticated in our approach to the strategy.
So you see that through the business growth service and the advice that we offer to businesses. So they don't have to disentangle what are rightly often quite complex strategies. Um, you see it through the scale up support that we're giving, which will give an enhanced service to people to see it through things like the British Business Bank finance finder and things like that. So we're trying to make it as simple as possible. Um, while being sort of, I guess, an unapologetically sophisticated in our approach to the strategy.
16:44
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Um. Just why I've got Mr. McDougall before. I just have a couple of questions then for Minister Patrick, but could I just ask you, Mr. McDougall, um, we've called for Northern Ireland representative on the to be on the Industrial Strategy Advisory Council. Would you welcome devolved nation representation on it?
16:44
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
So, um, we have a Doctor Rice on the Industrial Strategy Council. Um, now she's there. So part part of the issue with this is you have um the eight sectors plus the foundational industries within the strategy. Um, if you add on to that 12 nations and regions, you start to have a council that's too big and unwieldy. So I think the trick and what we try to do is to make sure that you have that mixture of sectoral expertise that is also gives, gives a sort of regional and national, um, uh, understanding as well.
So Doctor Rice gives us that, um, understanding of, of situation on the ground in Northern Ireland, but also has lots of industrial experience as well. Similar to the Scottish representative, Scottish representative.
So Doctor Rice gives us that, um, understanding of, of situation on the ground in Northern Ireland, but also has lots of industrial experience as well. Similar to the Scottish representative, Scottish representative.
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16:45
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
So I mean she she she she would be better to answer that than me. But my experience with the Industrial Strategy Council is that these are people who are deeply connected in in their sectors. They have deep experience of doing business. The Industrial Strategy Council also has a secretariat, um which supports them in particular discrete pieces of, of research, uh, and work. So that's there to, to support them as well. Um, and I should say, I find the industrial strategy Council incredibly helpful, not just in terms of being there to, to bang the drum for investment and for the sectors, but also for challenging us and being at our back, driving us on.
16:46
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Just on that. And just for clarity. How. How would you then check that Doctor Rice type figure had. Sort of done their homework and was speaking with knowledgeable authority, having engaged relevant sectors to feed in views rather than just regurgitating. Their own lived experience without casting the net further in order to maximize that understanding and input.
16:46
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Well, it's to say Isaac members are out there consulting. Um, and that's part of what they do. So when I'm, when I'm out and about in the nations regions, meeting with particular sectors, particular clusters, members of Isaac are in the room with me. Um, a lot of the time. As well. But again, these are, these are people who have been chosen because at the top of their game with, with, with really deep experience.
16:47
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Thank you. You can glass of water now because. I can return to Mr. Patrick with a couple of questions, if I may. The government's response to our report notes that you, um, met recently SMEs in Northern Ireland. Yeah. And that this provided, and I quote, a clear framework to refine the strategy, the industrial strategy. What does this framework look like and what are the logistics of delivering refinements to it?And what, if any, have you identified to date?
16:47
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, some of that is ongoing work. So it was very recently I was at, catalyst sitting down with a number of businesses, um, very successful businesses who had benefited from the industrial strategy and gave their feedback to it. Um, so when I say that's ongoing work, um, and Mr. McDougall himself will know this, we are, I think, ranked quite highly in the world for start ups and supporting start ups. But I think, as he alluded to himself, bridging that gap to help them then scale, commercialise and grow is, is still a challenge.
And I think, um, feeding that in and making sure there's support for those small businesses to really grow is important. And it's, it's obviously it's important for the economy, but it's also important for those communities and those families too. Um, family businesses set up with a, a bit of hard work and a creative idea and the opportunity to support them to grow, make money, help the economy is, is a privilege. We, we welcome.
And I think, um, feeding that in and making sure there's support for those small businesses to really grow is important. And it's, it's obviously it's important for the economy, but it's also important for those communities and those families too. Um, family businesses set up with a, a bit of hard work and a creative idea and the opportunity to support them to grow, make money, help the economy is, is a privilege. We, we welcome.
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16:50
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think I don't, yes, I think both. I think there is a minister mentioned about Doctor Rice and her role on that committee. There'll be other opportunities to do that too, and we should take advantage of that. But I also don't think it's a question of passing that over to them. I take that responsibility really seriously. So when I sit down with businesses, I make sure that I'm feeding that back in to the various departments, whether that's D, C, D, B, T, HMT, others, so that Northern Ireland's voice is at the table here at the table on these bodies and these groups as well.
16:50
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
And can I just check my can I, can I just make a plea to, to both of you. It's one I've often made to, to ministers of both stripes. So I make no apologies for making it to you. There is always a tendency of particularly with. This is not a criticism of officials having the list of. Go to people because they're known. They're on Rolodex, they've got their numbers, etc. it's often quite a challenge to go out and find fresh perspectives, new voices, new insights.
Can I urge both of you in that Northern Irish contact to, of course, use the reliable, known, trusted voices who speak with great clarity and authority, but to continually search for new perspectives?
Can I urge both of you in that Northern Irish contact to, of course, use the reliable, known, trusted voices who speak with great clarity and authority, but to continually search for new perspectives?
16:51
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Can I, can I maybe respond to that in two levels?So, um, Tina McKenzie. Fantastic. Uh, Northern Irish women from FSB is chairing the regulatory sort of deep dive sprint that we have going on looking into what is it we're missing on the regulatory burdens as part of our overall plan to reduce regulatory administrative burden by 25%. What is what we're missing with the smallest companies, which is exactly an attempt to get to where you're talking about. So it isn't the same cast of faces.
Coming to us. All the time. So just as an example of, of, of exactly what you're talking about.
Coming to us. All the time. So just as an example of, of, of exactly what you're talking about.
16:52
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And if I can just add, um, I take that challenge seriously. I think it's a fair challenge. It's a challenge because naturally you come in and there are bodies very well respected and rightly so that you rely upon, uh, it's partly a challenge that I then have to give to those bodies to say, are we getting the full representation here?That's important, but I don't just go to those. So when I was in Derry Londonderry, speaking to the Chamber of Commerce, that was very interesting.
I left that meeting to go straight to another one made up exclusively of women investors and either women entrepreneurs or women investors. And that was a very different perspective, clear overlap. But for me, important A very different perspective. Clear overlap. But for me, important to hear something that I wouldn't naturally hear. So I think it's a fair challenge and I take it seriously.
I left that meeting to go straight to another one made up exclusively of women investors and either women entrepreneurs or women investors. And that was a very different perspective, clear overlap. But for me, important A very different perspective. Clear overlap. But for me, important to hear something that I wouldn't naturally hear. So I think it's a fair challenge and I take it seriously.
16:53
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think the clarity that we were seeking as a committee around this is, you know, I wrote down what you were saying earlier, Minister Patrick, and you said, you know, we're hearing it. I'm going out there. I'm meeting all of these people, as you've, you know, reiterated now. But it feels like you, you take it away. You're very engaging. You're a good minister. But then what happens?Where does that lie?How do we know that you are speaking to Minister McDougall and actually making the case for Northern Ireland, where, you know, and I think the court I've got the rest of it here.
You know. You know, we are currently. This is what the Nia said in response to us. Well, the Secretary of State, we are currently considering how Northern Ireland voices can be more clearly and effectively cured within national policy development structures, including having Northern Ireland representation on UK wide decision making panels. Now you've spoken about individuals, Minister McDougall, but I think what we're looking for is the fact that we want to know that the Nia is having that conversation with Treasury and the chasing it up, and these things are happening, and that minority voices in this space, as you said, you'd met with the women leaders, are being heard and getting through because when we met people at Balmoral show, as I pointed out, they weren't happy with it with certain aspects around the apprenticeships, which you rightly said was devolved.
But it's those difficulties. How do we iron out those difficulties as a committee and get that across?
You know. You know, we are currently. This is what the Nia said in response to us. Well, the Secretary of State, we are currently considering how Northern Ireland voices can be more clearly and effectively cured within national policy development structures, including having Northern Ireland representation on UK wide decision making panels. Now you've spoken about individuals, Minister McDougall, but I think what we're looking for is the fact that we want to know that the Nia is having that conversation with Treasury and the chasing it up, and these things are happening, and that minority voices in this space, as you said, you'd met with the women leaders, are being heard and getting through because when we met people at Balmoral show, as I pointed out, they weren't happy with it with certain aspects around the apprenticeships, which you rightly said was devolved.
But it's those difficulties. How do we iron out those difficulties as a committee and get that across?
16:55
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah. No. Well, I hear that loud and clear that I can give you an example of, of where an issue has been raised with me, and I'm taking it forward, as is Secretary of State. Um, if you you'll be familiar with the AI growth zones, um, opportunities for essentially a clustering in private investment. Um, there is a requirement. I'm sure the committee knows around a minimum, uh, energy threshold capacity. Um, that has not been met in Northern Ireland, but we hear people say what benefit that might bring to Northern Ireland, what additional investment it might bring in, what jobs it might create.
And so that's not something that we hear and think would be really nice if someone did something about it. It's something that I have personally, along with our Secretary of state, sat down with their minister about, um, I think they are there's been a direct meeting about it. I, I don't think he enjoys the voting lobby because when I'm there, I'll always mention it to him as well. Um, and we've very recently, I think as of today, because we signed off a letter of last week, um, done a follow up letter to really push on this because we want to make progress.
That for me would be a direct example of we hear something action. It's a bit, it's a bit like, I know we might be a couple of years away from election. Right. But you said we did. And I want to build up an evidence bank of you said we did. And for me, AI growth zones, I always say to people, I can never guarantee you the outcome, but I guarantee you I'm going to fight for this. So we are working hard to make sure that we can make progress.
And so that's not something that we hear and think would be really nice if someone did something about it. It's something that I have personally, along with our Secretary of state, sat down with their minister about, um, I think they are there's been a direct meeting about it. I, I don't think he enjoys the voting lobby because when I'm there, I'll always mention it to him as well. Um, and we've very recently, I think as of today, because we signed off a letter of last week, um, done a follow up letter to really push on this because we want to make progress.
That for me would be a direct example of we hear something action. It's a bit, it's a bit like, I know we might be a couple of years away from election. Right. But you said we did. And I want to build up an evidence bank of you said we did. And for me, AI growth zones, I always say to people, I can never guarantee you the outcome, but I guarantee you I'm going to fight for this. So we are working hard to make sure that we can make progress.
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16:56
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Thank you. Minister McDougall. Um, when we visited Northern Ireland and we talked about trade quite a lot, there was quite a mixed picture of feedback and reaction from both the businesses and trade associations. Um, concerned about whether we were making, uh, the best efforts that we could to support businesses in Northern Ireland to attract international investment specifically. And as you know, Northern Ireland is a, is an extraordinary patchwork of small businesses and micro businesses that are ripe for investment. And when you throw in the option of, um, dual access to two markets as well, that puts them in an even stronger position theoretically.
But the evidence that we got and the feedback we got from the ground was that there is a concern about whether DVT is properly invested, both in time and staff in Belfast itself. And that was reflected by challenge over the export scheme. Um export champion scheme itself being paused. And so whilst I, I obviously understand the dynamics that are at play, there was a feeling of we weren't meeting the potential, potential, we weren't meeting Northern Ireland's potential in our work there in terms of attracting that investment.
So do you acknowledge those challenges that are still ongoing and how does the BHT work to properly help those businesses attract the investment from abroad that it needs?
But the evidence that we got and the feedback we got from the ground was that there is a concern about whether DVT is properly invested, both in time and staff in Belfast itself. And that was reflected by challenge over the export scheme. Um export champion scheme itself being paused. And so whilst I, I obviously understand the dynamics that are at play, there was a feeling of we weren't meeting the potential, potential, we weren't meeting Northern Ireland's potential in our work there in terms of attracting that investment.
So do you acknowledge those challenges that are still ongoing and how does the BHT work to properly help those businesses attract the investment from abroad that it needs?
16:57
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
So I acknowledge the, um acknowledge there's such a huge appetite for export related advice. And little wonder because it's the most single, most important thing you can do, or the most impactful thing you can do to grow your business and make it more resilient. Um, we what you've seen. In, and I referenced it earlier on, um, when I ran a small business myself, I remember that feeling of having, you know, 20 different tabs open as you desperately try to find the right bit of government to help you with whatever the issue was you were having, including an export support through the business growth service support on, on exporting advice and other or the whole range of issues that you might have as a business are increasingly being put into that one place.
So it should be easier and quicker to get some of that support. And the export advice that we have, uh, within the department is particularly linked to trying to make the most out of the trade deals that we have done as well. Um, the other thing I would say though is, um, yes, some of the time the challenge with exporting is about, um, advice and expertise. A lot of the time it's about money and financing as well. And the other thing I would say, and you mentioned in particular small and medium enterprises, but across the board, the huge increase in the firepower of UK export financing, um, which I think too often we think of as being, if you're selling a frigate to Indonesia or a bridge to Nigeria, that it's that it's that it's someone you reach for.
And we're increasingly and more and more, they are really effective at helping SMEs to make the investments so they can take advantage of that as well. And they have a whole suite of, of, of, of support that they offer alongside that financing as well.
So it should be easier and quicker to get some of that support. And the export advice that we have, uh, within the department is particularly linked to trying to make the most out of the trade deals that we have done as well. Um, the other thing I would say though is, um, yes, some of the time the challenge with exporting is about, um, advice and expertise. A lot of the time it's about money and financing as well. And the other thing I would say, and you mentioned in particular small and medium enterprises, but across the board, the huge increase in the firepower of UK export financing, um, which I think too often we think of as being, if you're selling a frigate to Indonesia or a bridge to Nigeria, that it's that it's that it's someone you reach for.
And we're increasingly and more and more, they are really effective at helping SMEs to make the investments so they can take advantage of that as well. And they have a whole suite of, of, of, of support that they offer alongside that financing as well.
16:59
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Can I just come back on a couple of things. Um, the Business and Trade Committee recently went to Canada and, uh, saw firsthand how the federal and provincial governments are working hand in hand on exporting very similar position in Canada, where there are lots of small businesses that make up the framework of the businesses across the country. They're investing a lot of money in bodies on the ground to give that sort of support to those businesses to get things moving quicker. Would it be something that you, uh, if you were staying in this role and when the new prime minister takes office, that perhaps one of the things you might ask for is for more resources to be able to staff more people in places like Belfast on behalf of DBT, because I think that would be well received.
16:59
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Well, look, we will we will always want, uh, more resource as a department will always make make the case for that. Um, I mean, the truth is, as the Department for Business and Trade, we've got to show the same level of efficiency and. Smart deployment of staff that the businesses that we work with would expect from themselves. Um, I think what, what I'd say is, and this runs through, um, the sort of. Place based elements of the industrial strategy, the sector plans as well.
Is that a huge part of attracting that investment is telling a consistent story and a story that makes sense to external investors. And I think the work that's being done around the clusters within Northern Ireland, and it's similar to in other other nations and regions in the UK, is about telling a story. Um, to the world. That has the scale of the investable opportunities that are out there.
Is that a huge part of attracting that investment is telling a consistent story and a story that makes sense to external investors. And I think the work that's being done around the clusters within Northern Ireland, and it's similar to in other other nations and regions in the UK, is about telling a story. Um, to the world. That has the scale of the investable opportunities that are out there.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Thank you. Uh, the Windsor framework was meant to offer Northern Ireland businesses the best of both worlds. Frictionless access to the EU and the rest of the GB. However, recent reports tells us that two thirds of Northern Ireland based business respondents have no understanding of the framework. Do not take advantage of it, whilst a third of UK wide respondents who move goods between the GB and Northern Ireland have stopped supplying their customers. So two questions what's gone wrong?And will the one stop shop that we recommended and you have you have applauded and said you will indeed bring in.
Will it solve the issue?
Will it solve the issue?
17:01
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think it's always fair to reflect that this is not a situation that I would choose to be starting in this position. Uh, I suspect that's yes, I suspect that's the same for you, Mr. Kohler, as well. Um, I don't I think fundamentally it's about reducing those frictions at every opportunity. And I think it's about supporting those businesses to trade. And I think there's a lot of positives we can speak to. I think progress is being made and I look for more progress each and every day.
And that's right. And I think that we are in a stronger position today than we were a few years ago.
And that's right. And I think that we are in a stronger position today than we were a few years ago.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Northern Ireland companies in and trade between Northern Ireland and GB and Northern Ireland and Europe, where they're not. It seems all the evidence we see is they are not getting the benefits, whilst in fact, many of those who supply goods from GB to Northern Ireland have stopped doing so. Now that's not things progress being made. That's us going backwards.
17:02
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
One thing I'll say is from the Northern Ireland Protocol that we had, and the level of checks that would have to take place. We are in a substantially better place, and I would like to think that after a the food and drink deal, an SPS agreement is struck and implemented will be in a better place again, but it won't be enough. I'll continue to want to make sure that businesses are supported right through this to improve trade, and I think I noted that 71% of businesses said that dual market access is actively helping them grow or increase sales.
That to me is important, and I think that dual market access is something talked about in Northern Ireland, but it's also recognised by investors around the world. When I was trying to drum up investment and support in Boston, uh, many of those businesses, some already have ties and investments in Northern Ireland, some looking to expand, some looking to potentially move into the market. Many of them recognise what a benefit that brings.
That to me is important, and I think that dual market access is something talked about in Northern Ireland, but it's also recognised by investors around the world. When I was trying to drum up investment and support in Boston, uh, many of those businesses, some already have ties and investments in Northern Ireland, some looking to expand, some looking to potentially move into the market. Many of them recognise what a benefit that brings.
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17:03
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Market access is helping. Let's be clear. Um and I think but you're you're right as well. And you mentioned about the one stop shop to point out that we don't want complexity. The point was made by Mr. Hoare earlier, which is the businesses are looking for simplicity and certainty. So we're not looking for complexity. And that's why we are working closely. I must say. It's why it's so important that we've reset that relationship with the European Union so that we can negotiate a much better system for people.
But you mentioned earlier the one stop shop for me that goes to the challenge we got earlier, which is it has to be there. And this committee has obviously put a significant amount of weight behind that recommendation, too. And we take that really seriously as, as as have others. That has to really help those businesses navigate this. And I note, I think the committee in its report suggested that it should go further. This one stop shop should not simply stop talking about this issue, but look at what other things can be done.
I think that's interesting. Um, I think you'd rightly say to me, get the basics right first, which we need to do.
But you mentioned earlier the one stop shop for me that goes to the challenge we got earlier, which is it has to be there. And this committee has obviously put a significant amount of weight behind that recommendation, too. And we take that really seriously as, as as have others. That has to really help those businesses navigate this. And I note, I think the committee in its report suggested that it should go further. This one stop shop should not simply stop talking about this issue, but look at what other things can be done.
I think that's interesting. Um, I think you'd rightly say to me, get the basics right first, which we need to do.
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17:05
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So it was announced, if we think about it, it was announced last year um at the budget. Um naturally no money was available till um this financial year. Um there's been some engagement really important to, to, to work this out with businesses across Northern Ireland. Um, that's, that's quite important. All the businesses that would be impacted by this one stop shop. The next steps are to start building this out, getting the technology working and within the, within this financial year, right.
We, I'm hoping we will have a one stop shop up and running available to those businesses.
We, I'm hoping we will have a one stop shop up and running available to those businesses.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
It's a really fair question, and I don't have an answer directly. If I think about that openly, what would the metrics be for success of this?Presumably, the number of businesses that are accessing it?Are after we've given after they've utilized this system, I think we should make sure we're trying to get some feedback to hear how that's working for them and how it's not, because this has to be, look, even I'm an optimist, right?Um, even the most optimistic part of me doesn't think you get this right first time.
And everyone goes, this is swimmingly brilliant. So when people are utilizing, uh, the system, when they are making use of this one stop shop, what feedback are they giving either to us, but also to the many politicians, I'm sure to yourselves, to the, um, business groups. And we'll have to absolutely reflect on that and make sure that we're improving it.
And everyone goes, this is swimmingly brilliant. So when people are utilizing, uh, the system, when they are making use of this one stop shop, what feedback are they giving either to us, but also to the many politicians, I'm sure to yourselves, to the, um, business groups. And we'll have to absolutely reflect on that and make sure that we're improving it.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
The Windsor framework is dual market access. And the result is that it's not provided that for them. So yes, I'm sure many thought it's a good idea. But the trouble is now they're saying two thirds are saying they are not getting any benefit and know nothing and don't know how to access it. Okay. Um, uh, Mr. McDougall, um, as I've said earlier, many GB based businesses are not or have stopped exporting goods to Northern Ireland due to. Much due to ignorance, we are told, not knowing how.
Not not being scared by. By the supposed obstacles. What are we doing to educate them in how they can maintain trade with Northern Ireland?
Not not being scared by. By the supposed obstacles. What are we doing to educate them in how they can maintain trade with Northern Ireland?
17:10
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Well, as I said earlier on, we're trying to improve the simplicity and accessibility of our um. Business advice across, across the board. Um, I think one of the things I'll take away from this conversation is to make sure that we are thinking about that in terms of internal trade, um, as well as, as well as external, uh, external trade. As well. Um, but it's, it's, it's a perennial problem of, um. Uh, any sort of, as Mr. Hoare sort of referred to earlier on, any complexity, um, in trading will often result in people making, making decision not to, not to act.
Um, and we miss out on a huge amount of economic activity because of that. Um, so it's something, something I'll take away from this committee and make sure that through the business growth service, we are, um.
Um, and we miss out on a huge amount of economic activity because of that. Um, so it's something, something I'll take away from this committee and make sure that through the business growth service, we are, um.
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17:11
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Yeah. We're also, we're also, um, through the business growth service, um, looking at, um, the introduction of AI powered um, advice as. Well, so I was recently shown a. Early, I think the term is beta version of it. And I threw at it. I am a cake manufacturer seeking to export to the United States and was really surprised with the accuracy of the advice, um, and how tailored that advice is. Um, and I think that's where we would like to get to with advice, not just for, as I say, exporters, but for internal trade as well.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah. So, um, yeah, I. I'm going to go to Gavin, but no, I was just going to say, um. So there is confusion over what paperwork needs to be used. And when I raised the issue over paperwork from GB to Northern Ireland. Mhm. Um it was said that that invoicing system didn't need to be used, but then hauliers were kind of getting involved and they were saying that it did need to be used. So there's a lot of myths to dispel.
And you know, we, we recognise that those difficulties and.
And you know, we, we recognise that those difficulties and.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I totally take that because obviously the advice will be obviously for GB businesses looking to trade in Northern Ireland too. But to your point, um, there's nothing more frustrating than dealing with a chat bot and thinking I'm not quite sure about this. So there will be the opportunity for people to pick up the phone and speak to a human being, which I think if I could replicate that across every service I ever have to deal with, I'd be a happy man.
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17:14
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Thank you very much, chair, and good afternoon. Apologies for not being with you at the start of the session. Minister Patrick, you mentioned about the one stop shop. Um, and it was announced, as you said, in the budget in 2025. So whenever something's announced in the budget, that's an indication that government's going to allocate money to it. The Chancellor wouldn't have allocated money to something without detail. So I'm just scratching my head wondering why the six months between the budgetary event and the next financial year isn't sufficient, but that it's going to take an additional 12 months to get this off the ground.
Why is that?
Why is that?
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
There had been. But you want to have continued engagement, right the moment you're in the position to say, how do we then make this a reality?Everything from when you're going out to procure this right, if you're building it in-house, if you're bringing other expertise in for some parts or all of it, you want to make sure that you've thought about every aspect of that. And we have done important engagement. Um, and I think the next stage is how do we then build the system, test the system and make sure it works for businesses.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
So you have a business case, you have all the concepts put together. You go to the treasury, they allocate the money and it takes 18 months. We're still talking about a further nine months from today for this to be operational. I think most businesses would have closed if they were relying on, on that level of support, scratching their heads. If this is the efficiency you get from government, but can I ask you to think about dual market access, because you've mentioned it a number of times now.
So split it into two dual two market somewhere you can buy and sell. And the experience that Mr. Kohler is referring to is the fact that we have many businesses in Northern Ireland that know they can sell into the European Union and know they can sell into Great Britain, but they cannot buy easily from Great Britain. That's where the barriers are, and that's where the politics comes as a consequence. Do you recognise that continually talking about dual market access fails to recognise that a marketplace is somewhere where you can both buy and sell, and it is our government that's putting barriers on the ability for businesses in Northern Ireland to buy from the rest of their own country.
So split it into two dual two market somewhere you can buy and sell. And the experience that Mr. Kohler is referring to is the fact that we have many businesses in Northern Ireland that know they can sell into the European Union and know they can sell into Great Britain, but they cannot buy easily from Great Britain. That's where the barriers are, and that's where the politics comes as a consequence. Do you recognise that continually talking about dual market access fails to recognise that a marketplace is somewhere where you can both buy and sell, and it is our government that's putting barriers on the ability for businesses in Northern Ireland to buy from the rest of their own country.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
As I said in the start of my answer, if I was asked to put us in. A position, it wouldn't be from this one, right?I did not I did not support Brexit. I did not want to go down that route, but that is the route that we went down. I talk about dual market access because I really believe in the Northern Ireland economy. I believe it when I see it right across Northern Ireland, and when I speak to investors, they recognise the benefits that that brings.
They recognise that their investment into Northern Ireland is a good investment. Right?That's what I think is particularly important. I hear your point about trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain and going both ways. Of course, that's one of the reasons we're trying to strike important deals so that we smooth out any trade friction that we can.
They recognise that their investment into Northern Ireland is a good investment. Right?That's what I think is particularly important. I hear your point about trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain and going both ways. Of course, that's one of the reasons we're trying to strike important deals so that we smooth out any trade friction that we can.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
But can you give us any sense of a timeline on that?Because we know that 22nd of July has been vacated. We know there's not going to be an announcement on that day. It seems as if it's all lying in abeyance. Yet you still talk of dual market access. And you know in your heart of hearts that that doesn't live up to reality and it doesn't live up to reality. For many businesses in Northern Ireland.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Thank you very much, Minister. I'll pick up with you again. Obviously, you're correct to identify that businesses want to be able to trade north, south, East and west without friction. We met both Intertrade Ireland and Intertrade UK, and I wanted to ask you about the latter in your response. Um, you endorsed our view that Intertrade UK has the potential to be a key source of advice, since its establishment in 2024 in February, how has it performed and how has it improved the trading landscape for businesses?Um trading east west?
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, it's been, it's really, it's been really helpful. Um, because it's already offered advice directly to us on a range of issues. Um, east west trade, vehicle type approvals, veterinary medicines. Um, and I'm, I'm always be taken back to a conversation I had with Baroness foster who chairs this prior to um, any funding being agreed for the body. And we talked about the economy, the UK economy talked about nib trade both ways and reflected upon the importance of um promoting the opportunities and also giving people exposure to the other opportunities.
And I asked the question, which is in the event that there was no money attached to this, can we make progress?Can we help drive forward trade?And she was unequivocal. Yes, was the answer. And so to then boost that with a more than £2 million funding package, I think is exciting. I know that there are um events that they are planning to deliver business facing promotional events, including in a member of this committee's constituency, to make sure that trade between Britain and Northern Ireland is growing and strong.
And I asked the question, which is in the event that there was no money attached to this, can we make progress?Can we help drive forward trade?And she was unequivocal. Yes, was the answer. And so to then boost that with a more than £2 million funding package, I think is exciting. I know that there are um events that they are planning to deliver business facing promotional events, including in a member of this committee's constituency, to make sure that trade between Britain and Northern Ireland is growing and strong.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Do you think they have the capacity to do that?Sorry, I don't know which member you're referring to, but I think they've got the capacity to, to, to, uh, promote businesses to businesses in Britain. Uh, the ease and, and the viability and the advantages of trading east West. Great. I'm sorry, could you just what issues did you say that you'd received advice from.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I mean, I haven't got the letter before me, so I can't give you the details, but I'm happy to do that. But um, they, they come forward with advice which the Secretary of state, um and I read and take very seriously, uh, but this is also an ongoing basis, right?It's only recently that that funding has been allocated. So in terms of judging their performance in the, I think what we will start to see is more of these promotional events, which I think are really important because whether it's the Farnborough Air Show coming up, right.
I want I want businesses right across Northern Ireland to know they have an opportunity to get there and to, to sell and to trade and for there not to be a concern about what that might look like. And that's, for me, really important.
I want I want businesses right across Northern Ireland to know they have an opportunity to get there and to, to sell and to trade and for there not to be a concern about what that might look like. And that's, for me, really important.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Um well there's a process to go through right in, in um the. Reappointing the terms, but I think there'll be something soon, soon on this. So as soon as, as much as I can give you. But yeah, I we take the recommendation seriously and um that's what we'd like to do, but clearly that will be subject to people agreeing to be on it and doing that.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Thank you very much, chair. The inquiry is based on economic growth for economic or economic growth. We need a workforce. You mentioned metrics at the start of your presentation, Minister Padraic. Uh, one of the I suppose most challenging we have in Northern Ireland is that of economic inactivity. The local Growth fund was a very important fund in regards to supporting those individuals and those organisations who were trying to get those people who were furthest from work, actually into employment.
You'll be well aware that Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Action has told this committee that the organisations that they represented have seen a 60 to 70% fall in the funding under the Local Growth Fund, in your opinion, who's responsible for addressing that unmet need as a result of the fall in UK government allocated funding?
You'll be well aware that Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Action has told this committee that the organisations that they represented have seen a 60 to 70% fall in the funding under the Local Growth Fund, in your opinion, who's responsible for addressing that unmet need as a result of the fall in UK government allocated funding?
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think we all have a duty. Um, I was really clear about this that and I know that it's a it's an issue that the chair of the committee has pressed very hard on and the members of the committee have multiple times, and I know that they'll continue to do so. Um, from my perspective, the value of what those groups do is not in question. I've sat in, in a meeting room from across the room from these people, and I've heard directly how valuable that work is.
I'm, I'm not doubting the benefit of that. I'm really not. I know it's disappoints this committee that the the ratio won't won't change, the split won't change. But we've been clear about that for some time. But if I look at what's happened since the issue arose, more than £300 million in Barnett consequentials has gone to the executive. And clearly they can. They are. They've written to us as well. So it's entirely proper that I point that out, that there's been a substantial amount of money gone in subsequent to that letter, but it was also not the case that we wanted to leave it there.
That's why the Secretary of State and myself convened a meeting with the Peace Plus programme and some of these bodies for three others to ensure that the opportunities for some of these groups that we could continue to pursue. And I understand that on the back of this, there's been applications gone in, um, I don't know the the status yet of those. Um, it was also the case that the meeting, um, uncovered something for me, which is that the executive can almost claim back money from the peace plus programme against expenditure that's already taken place, provided they could justify that.
So I made sure that was on the agenda of executive ministers to, from my perspective, I, I hear the frustration, I know it, um, I really understand that, uh, what I have done along with the Secretary of State is everything I can think of in terms of being rolling up our sleeves, being creative and trying to find a way to support those organisations. As I say, I recognise they do really important work, and this committee has been a central champion for them.
I'm, I'm not doubting the benefit of that. I'm really not. I know it's disappoints this committee that the the ratio won't won't change, the split won't change. But we've been clear about that for some time. But if I look at what's happened since the issue arose, more than £300 million in Barnett consequentials has gone to the executive. And clearly they can. They are. They've written to us as well. So it's entirely proper that I point that out, that there's been a substantial amount of money gone in subsequent to that letter, but it was also not the case that we wanted to leave it there.
That's why the Secretary of State and myself convened a meeting with the Peace Plus programme and some of these bodies for three others to ensure that the opportunities for some of these groups that we could continue to pursue. And I understand that on the back of this, there's been applications gone in, um, I don't know the the status yet of those. Um, it was also the case that the meeting, um, uncovered something for me, which is that the executive can almost claim back money from the peace plus programme against expenditure that's already taken place, provided they could justify that.
So I made sure that was on the agenda of executive ministers to, from my perspective, I, I hear the frustration, I know it, um, I really understand that, uh, what I have done along with the Secretary of State is everything I can think of in terms of being rolling up our sleeves, being creative and trying to find a way to support those organisations. As I say, I recognise they do really important work, and this committee has been a central champion for them.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
You said in an earlier answer that you were the voice for businesses when it came to interacting with other government departments, that you were responsible for representing Northern Ireland. So then, in regards to the local Growth Fund, do you feel you have been an effective voice in Whitehall and actually articulating those specific needs when it came to local local growth fund, because you weren't listened to.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Were one of the voices, which I think is always clear, right, to have the humility there. But I make sure that I take responsibility for for being heard. But on the local growth fund, we had that conversation, um, we reached that decision. We and we made sure that was communicated very clearly. Um, but for me, taking responsibility in trying to do my best by those groups that I think do such important work means it's not enough for me to say, I know this is a difficult message that you might not want to hear, and I'm sorry, it's about doing what we've done by getting the Peace Plus project, something that the UK government funds to the tune of hundreds of million pounds, I should add.
It's about getting those those people around the table and trying to find a way to support those groups accessing it. I think it's a theme of this conversation. I think more broadly, right, which is if it's how many of those groups would think would know how to navigate this system with peace, plus how, how many people would naturally be plugged into it and know how to access it. One of the reasons we got involved was to make that a bit simpler for people, and make that clearer.
It's about getting those those people around the table and trying to find a way to support those groups accessing it. I think it's a theme of this conversation. I think more broadly, right, which is if it's how many of those groups would think would know how to navigate this system with peace, plus how, how many people would naturally be plugged into it and know how to access it. One of the reasons we got involved was to make that a bit simpler for people, and make that clearer.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And possibly, I would add that ability and that intelligence. But in regard in regards to the local growth fund, um, and the capital spend, you mentioned the imbalance that has happened. Now that has upset or annoyed many of those organisations. Can you tell me why is your department only recently begun the consultation in regards to that, even though you made the announcement back in December?
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah. So we've we've now I mean, I think it's concluded as of Friday. Um, launched a consultation. Um, the. Process to reach that consultation is naturally one that you would work with the executive and others to agree some of the questions and talk about different experiences to make sure that we could make the most of that. And I think there's always a difficulty about the amount of time that you give, because some of the funds, some of them, will have to go out the door this financial year.
So if you take too long and if your consultation is too long, you'll end up in a situation where you've got a very narrow window with which to spend some of this and make sure you're investing in growth. And so we've had a consultation to about seven, seven weeks. Um, concluded, as I say, last Friday.
So if you take too long and if your consultation is too long, you'll end up in a situation where you've got a very narrow window with which to spend some of this and make sure you're investing in growth. And so we've had a consultation to about seven, seven weeks. Um, concluded, as I say, last Friday.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah, I think it's a really fair question, I think. I spoke to officials because some of this was done just as I came into post, and I spoke to officials, um, about how we did this. I think there were some, there's some lessons we definitely can learn, making sure that we are crystal, crystal clear. So officials might have thought that they were being very clear about what was happening with the fund and where things might be going. But if that left an inch of a door open for someone to think that things might change, that's actually not healthy, because it means that you don't end up confronting the issue.
As we see it. We there's a there's a conversation about whether you prevent that happening at all. And when we reach that stage, that decision had been taken. So I think on reflection, um, it's about making sure you are crystal clear and communicating as early as possible.
As we see it. We there's a there's a conversation about whether you prevent that happening at all. And when we reach that stage, that decision had been taken. So I think on reflection, um, it's about making sure you are crystal clear and communicating as early as possible.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
No, no, no. Sorry. I would hope I would hope it is the case that we don't see this again. Uh, but I, I can never guarantee the future, but what I can tell you is I've taken it seriously. I've heard this committee's been a crucial part of of getting that message across. And I'm grateful to the committee for it. And I've made sure that that requirement to be clear and communicate early is, is something I've communicated.
15:46
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thank you. Just to pick up on the. Nicola um situation, I. Mean. I do hope that that lessons have been learned Minister, particularly because um to sit in a room with so many stakeholders was quite life changing for me as a chair, the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee, I'm sure my colleagues will feel the same because finding out the last working day before Christmas that the funding was no longer going to be available was very hard hitting and ruined quite a few Christmases.
Um, just to say, are you aware if Nicola has, um, engaged with the peace plus scheme because they quoted it to us as being a non-starter.
Um, just to say, are you aware if Nicola has, um, engaged with the peace plus scheme because they quoted it to us as being a non-starter.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Okay. So, um, there are groups that have, um, obviously we've engaged with a range of groups, um and applications have gone into the scheme. Um I, I am interested and I'm sure this committee is interested as well what the outcome of those applications will be. Um, I am pressing officials to support however we can and to find out that information, but I have I'm very happy that the committee would be interested when we get an answer on this that I share that.
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