International Agreements Committee
Tuesday 30th June 2026
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14:04
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
This makes this discussion highly topical. I'm very pleased to be joined by Stephen Doughty, the Minister of State of Timing. Today we release the Defence Investment Plan. We haven't had a chance to go through it, but for Europe, North America and overseas territories in the Fcdo, thank you very much for giving us your time. It's hugely appreciated. I know you have to go in about half an hour and carrying on from that point. Kirsty Hayes, director for Europe at the Fcdo, and Joanne Hamer at the Euro-Atlantic Security Department of the Ministry of Defence, will continue your good work.
So thank you very much indeed. We're joined online by Baroness Lawler, who has a question. But if I go first, if that's all right. Um, in in all honesty, these treaties are very relevant in terms of showing goodwill. Um, there are a lot of powerful words, um, some good rhetoric. We are interested particularly in the detail. And I was struck when reading the treaty, there wasn't a huge amount about actual financial contribution. And it would be interesting to hear in terms of procurement and weapons development assistance development, what's actually going to happen there.
What are we committing to?What are they committing to?Clearly, I assume we're hoping to sell our technology to Poland and probably vice versa. And there was an interesting section about smoothing out sort of regulatory issues. And I'd be interested to know what they were. And maybe they were around procurement. If so, what are we actually doing to make sure that we really are properly in sync with an incredibly important partner in such a strategic position?So thank you very much indeed for being with us, and I look forward to hearing your responses.
So thank you very much indeed. We're joined online by Baroness Lawler, who has a question. But if I go first, if that's all right. Um, in in all honesty, these treaties are very relevant in terms of showing goodwill. Um, there are a lot of powerful words, um, some good rhetoric. We are interested particularly in the detail. And I was struck when reading the treaty, there wasn't a huge amount about actual financial contribution. And it would be interesting to hear in terms of procurement and weapons development assistance development, what's actually going to happen there.
What are we committing to?What are they committing to?Clearly, I assume we're hoping to sell our technology to Poland and probably vice versa. And there was an interesting section about smoothing out sort of regulatory issues. And I'd be interested to know what they were. And maybe they were around procurement. If so, what are we actually doing to make sure that we really are properly in sync with an incredibly important partner in such a strategic position?So thank you very much indeed for being with us, and I look forward to hearing your responses.
14:06
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, thank you, chair, and thank the members of the committee and always happy to appear on these different agreements that we've been taking forward, which are significant. And obviously, this is the latest in a number of treaties we've signed over the last two years, which are very much meant to reinforce one another and our existing commitments, obviously through, uh, through NATO and through our new EU, UK Security and Defence partnership and a range of other measures. But clearly, what we've seen in relation to our relationship with Germany, our relationship with France, um, and this crucial treaty with Poland, um, I, I always describe this as these are these are interlocking strands in a muscle, right?They're, they're not meant to, to, to contradict or to do everything on their own.
It is the combined impact of the individual bilateral relationship being strengthened and all the parts of it being strengthened. And then our core NATO relationship, or indeed our new security and defence partnership with the EU. So. And the strands of a muscle, of course, when you flex them all together, get stronger and get and get larger and also send a very clear signal to our adversaries and those who wish us harm. And if I may, I'd just say a little bit about the UK Poland relationship to start with, because obviously this is a very unique and special relationship.
It's actually imbued in my own family as well, with two members of my family married to, to poles and, um, uh, we have a obviously extraordinary history, particularly dating back to, um, our work together in the Second World War, which was commemorated during the high level visit recently. And of course, our work today on NATO's eastern flank, which the, uh, Foreign Secretary was visiting just, just recently. And I too have met with, um, our brave armed forces personnel as well and have stood alongside, uh, different Polish counterparts at different points in key fora and, uh, in this very uncertain world, not least from the threat from, from Russia to, to European security, but more broadly, um, Poland is obviously one of our most steady and essential partners.
And it's on the front line. And Poland's border is our border. When it comes to article five. Um, and, and that security is our security. Uh, so this treaty marks a step change in that relationship, building on the existing agreements. And it moves from close cooperation to a much deeper and more structured partnership, which I'll let colleagues go into some detail on. Um, but it's about across defence, security and economic resilience. You'll note there's a number of other factors that are touched on in, in, in the treaty.
And they're deliberately framed the provisions in the treaty at strategic and high level, because that allows a more flexible structure to develop, um, and deepen the cooperation on a range of areas, rather than prescribing very narrow or time bound obligations. If we give too much micromanagement in these in these documents, they don't actually allow the flexibility and, and operational response that's needed. And you'll know that alongside it, we have a series of landmark projects as well that will demonstrate how we deliver that in practice. Um, some of the areas in which we're going to deepen the capability cooperation, which you asked about, um, next generation land capabilities, large scale joint exercises that will take part in a much deeper sense, deeper interoperability on counter-drone warfare.
Um, and of course, on electronic warfare and missile defence too. Um, and we're also, and this has been a very important part of the kind of discussions that I've had with counterparts in Poland is our work together against hybrid threats. And that can be cyber attacks. It can be disinformation, it can be the disruption of hostile state activity. Um, some of the activity we've seen in relation to sabotage, um, in relation to attempts to destabilise economies, societies, critical national infrastructure, all of those aspects and of course, intelligence sharing and the development of specialist capabilities to respond.
And I can very much reassure the committee that those are well underway with our Polish counterparts. Um, the industrial cooperation part of it, um, you rightly touched on chair. Um, it's worth billions and it's basically going to be UK and Polish expertise coming together to develop and manufacture next generation capabilities. And that is going to be particularly focused on air and missile defense systems. Um, and of course that's going to have a benefit back here at home in terms of UK jobs and supply chains and wider NATO capability.
And I think you will see, uh, I don't want to sort of get ahead of the statement that is being made. I know it's happening sort of in semi in parallel, but there is a lot that will will echo here with what comes out in the defence. Uh, statement today. Um, we're also looking at energy security, wider economic resilience, tackling organised crime and illegal migration. Um cooperating on border security, intelligence sharing, criminal networks on that. I've had excellent conversations with Polish counterparts on those issues as well.
And of course, those can also all be used in hybrid ways by hostile states. And you only have to look at some of the activity that's happened in relation to the Belarus border and the dynamics that we've seen. Uh, to see why that matters. So, um, we're, we're absolutely convinced that this is a deepening and a strengthening of the UK Poland relationship. It was necessary. It provides though a flexible framework, as I said, and also that it complements all our existing initiatives, doesn't seek to supplant our NATO relationship or our article five commitments, or indeed our wider commitments under the UK, EU Security and Defence Partnership.
But as one of our most crucial partners and most like minded partners, I think is a very, very important step forward. So I hope that's helpful just to sort of situate things.
It is the combined impact of the individual bilateral relationship being strengthened and all the parts of it being strengthened. And then our core NATO relationship, or indeed our new security and defence partnership with the EU. So. And the strands of a muscle, of course, when you flex them all together, get stronger and get and get larger and also send a very clear signal to our adversaries and those who wish us harm. And if I may, I'd just say a little bit about the UK Poland relationship to start with, because obviously this is a very unique and special relationship.
It's actually imbued in my own family as well, with two members of my family married to, to poles and, um, uh, we have a obviously extraordinary history, particularly dating back to, um, our work together in the Second World War, which was commemorated during the high level visit recently. And of course, our work today on NATO's eastern flank, which the, uh, Foreign Secretary was visiting just, just recently. And I too have met with, um, our brave armed forces personnel as well and have stood alongside, uh, different Polish counterparts at different points in key fora and, uh, in this very uncertain world, not least from the threat from, from Russia to, to European security, but more broadly, um, Poland is obviously one of our most steady and essential partners.
And it's on the front line. And Poland's border is our border. When it comes to article five. Um, and, and that security is our security. Uh, so this treaty marks a step change in that relationship, building on the existing agreements. And it moves from close cooperation to a much deeper and more structured partnership, which I'll let colleagues go into some detail on. Um, but it's about across defence, security and economic resilience. You'll note there's a number of other factors that are touched on in, in, in the treaty.
And they're deliberately framed the provisions in the treaty at strategic and high level, because that allows a more flexible structure to develop, um, and deepen the cooperation on a range of areas, rather than prescribing very narrow or time bound obligations. If we give too much micromanagement in these in these documents, they don't actually allow the flexibility and, and operational response that's needed. And you'll know that alongside it, we have a series of landmark projects as well that will demonstrate how we deliver that in practice. Um, some of the areas in which we're going to deepen the capability cooperation, which you asked about, um, next generation land capabilities, large scale joint exercises that will take part in a much deeper sense, deeper interoperability on counter-drone warfare.
Um, and of course, on electronic warfare and missile defence too. Um, and we're also, and this has been a very important part of the kind of discussions that I've had with counterparts in Poland is our work together against hybrid threats. And that can be cyber attacks. It can be disinformation, it can be the disruption of hostile state activity. Um, some of the activity we've seen in relation to sabotage, um, in relation to attempts to destabilise economies, societies, critical national infrastructure, all of those aspects and of course, intelligence sharing and the development of specialist capabilities to respond.
And I can very much reassure the committee that those are well underway with our Polish counterparts. Um, the industrial cooperation part of it, um, you rightly touched on chair. Um, it's worth billions and it's basically going to be UK and Polish expertise coming together to develop and manufacture next generation capabilities. And that is going to be particularly focused on air and missile defense systems. Um, and of course that's going to have a benefit back here at home in terms of UK jobs and supply chains and wider NATO capability.
And I think you will see, uh, I don't want to sort of get ahead of the statement that is being made. I know it's happening sort of in semi in parallel, but there is a lot that will will echo here with what comes out in the defence. Uh, statement today. Um, we're also looking at energy security, wider economic resilience, tackling organised crime and illegal migration. Um cooperating on border security, intelligence sharing, criminal networks on that. I've had excellent conversations with Polish counterparts on those issues as well.
And of course, those can also all be used in hybrid ways by hostile states. And you only have to look at some of the activity that's happened in relation to the Belarus border and the dynamics that we've seen. Uh, to see why that matters. So, um, we're, we're absolutely convinced that this is a deepening and a strengthening of the UK Poland relationship. It was necessary. It provides though a flexible framework, as I said, and also that it complements all our existing initiatives, doesn't seek to supplant our NATO relationship or our article five commitments, or indeed our wider commitments under the UK, EU Security and Defence Partnership.
But as one of our most crucial partners and most like minded partners, I think is a very, very important step forward. So I hope that's helpful just to sort of situate things.
14:11
14:11
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Minister, thank you for that introduction. Um, what is the effect of article two of the treaty?And in particular paragraphs four and five in respect to both the UK and Poland's commitments to each other defence. And do they add anything?Do they differ in any way from the both countries existing obligations to each other under article five of the NATO, the Atlantic Alliance, and perhaps the second question, you could just tell us whether we are confident that all parties in Poland are going to support the ratification of this agreement when it comes before the Polish Parliament?
14:12
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, on the second point, I it's obviously not for me to comment on domestic Polish politics, but, you know, I am certain that this treaty has been entered into in good faith by the Polish government. And we've got strong relationships, um, you know, across the Parliament and different parts of the government. So, um, we're confident that this in good.
14:12
14:12
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, we have a strong relationship with the presidency, with the government across the piece and always have done. And we're confident that this is going to be supported and is going to pass in Poland. But again, I'm not I'm not going to comment on what any individual politician or party might decide to do. Um, in Polish politics. But look, the point you asked Lord Hain about, um the commitments in article two five of the treaty and of course the complement, I believe, to article five of the Washington treaty very much is in relation to what I said in my opening remarks, which is these are mutually reinforcing strands of a of a muscle.
Article five is the is the is the ultimate commitment. It's our NATO commitment. It's the bedrock of our, our collective security and, and deterrence against aggressors. And we're very clear about that. Um, but it helps that we have very, very specific commitments to other partners in, particularly as we're looking at a, um, an enhanced and deepened European, um, part of NATO, this is, this is a very important signal that we send there. And I think, um, it reaffirms our commitment to each other as the UK and Poland and to NATO and article five, by having, um, additional commitments like this.
Um, and the signals that that sends to those who might seek to threaten our security. So, um, I see them as, as, as, as very complementary, um, and not in any way in conflict with one another.
Article five is the is the is the ultimate commitment. It's our NATO commitment. It's the bedrock of our, our collective security and, and deterrence against aggressors. And we're very clear about that. Um, but it helps that we have very, very specific commitments to other partners in, particularly as we're looking at a, um, an enhanced and deepened European, um, part of NATO, this is, this is a very important signal that we send there. And I think, um, it reaffirms our commitment to each other as the UK and Poland and to NATO and article five, by having, um, additional commitments like this.
Um, and the signals that that sends to those who might seek to threaten our security. So, um, I see them as, as, as, as very complementary, um, and not in any way in conflict with one another.
14:13
14:13
14:14
14:14
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Thank you Minister. Um just very quickly, where do you see that the under the effect of article two that we could tighten up or maybe improve it so that the muscle that you're talking about becomes even more reinforced?Because I agree with you that, you know, it's a sum of many small parts. But on the hybrid side of warfare, where increasingly technology is outpacing all of us, are we are we in the same lane as the Polish advancement on technology, or are we behind or in front?
14:15
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, I think one of the reasons for this deepening the cooperation is because I think we share the same absolutely the same objectives. We share the same assessment of the threat. And this is aimed now at us not only leading on that cooperation to develop responses to those threats together, but actually also and what we together offer to NATO. And that's that's the crucial the crucial aspect here. And this is being mirrored in lots of other pieces of work when I was up in Latvia a few months ago looking at the UK drone coalition work there.
And again, this is capability that's important for the UK, Latvia and our commitment to the Baltic states, but also to NATO as a whole. Um, I think our Polish friends have a very, very clear eyed and crystal clear assessment of the threat in the way that we do. Um, and I think some extraordinary capabilities and we're going to learn from one another as we deepen that. And particularly, as you say, in those kind of subthreshold hybrid threats, you know, we have both as countries experienced, uh, these threats on our own soil.
Um, and I think that's what we have a lot to offer to the rest of NATO, um, in understanding how to counter them and disrupt them.
And again, this is capability that's important for the UK, Latvia and our commitment to the Baltic states, but also to NATO as a whole. Um, I think our Polish friends have a very, very clear eyed and crystal clear assessment of the threat in the way that we do. Um, and I think some extraordinary capabilities and we're going to learn from one another as we deepen that. And particularly, as you say, in those kind of subthreshold hybrid threats, you know, we have both as countries experienced, uh, these threats on our own soil.
Um, and I think that's what we have a lot to offer to the rest of NATO, um, in understanding how to counter them and disrupt them.
14:15
14:16
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Minister, good afternoon. One of our witnesses has said that except on in respect of migration, the agreement adds little to the existing bilateral agreements of 2017 and 2023 between our two countries. Do you agree?And would it help bilateral defence cooperation if Poland were to join the JF, which we of course, lead since the Newport NATO summit?
14:16
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I don't agree with the characterization. Um, that was set out. And, um, it's very, very clear that this is deepening, strengthening, uh, broadening the cooperation. And actually, as you mentioned, um, the additional areas that are featured in this treaty in relation to economic and energy security, serious and organised crime, irregular migration, hybrid threats, all of these things. It's important that actually we see security as one indivisible whole. All of these things interact with each other. And when we're in a world where, um, hostile states might choose to engage criminal proxies in, in their activities or where, um, serious organised crime groups might also be using hybrid technologies and techniques.
And you can only look at drones as, as one way. All of these are threats to our security and stability. Um, and, and look at the way that migration, for example, has been weaponized on the, on the, on the Polish border and on the borders of NATO. I think it's absolutely essential that we set this out and show how the changing nature of the threat that we face and the responses to it exist. And we in Poland have a deep understanding of this.
And that is why this is set out so clearly in this treaty, and will be then followed up with the very specific projects that we're working on. Um, I won't get if I, if I may, into, into commenting on, on, on the Jeff but we enjoy, you know, working very, very closely with, with Poland on a, on a series of, um, important activities on the security of the Baltic and the wider.
And you can only look at drones as, as one way. All of these are threats to our security and stability. Um, and, and look at the way that migration, for example, has been weaponized on the, on the, on the Polish border and on the borders of NATO. I think it's absolutely essential that we set this out and show how the changing nature of the threat that we face and the responses to it exist. And we in Poland have a deep understanding of this.
And that is why this is set out so clearly in this treaty, and will be then followed up with the very specific projects that we're working on. Um, I won't get if I, if I may, into, into commenting on, on, on the Jeff but we enjoy, you know, working very, very closely with, with Poland on a, on a series of, um, important activities on the security of the Baltic and the wider.
14:17
14:18
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Uh, look, I it's not, it's not for me to get into, into a discussion there. Obviously, Jeff is a grouping of countries. You have to have agreement on behalf of all. But we work very, very closely with them and particularly in, in in some of the same operation areas. I mentioned the Baltic, um, whether it's our airspace, whether it's the response to critical national infrastructure threats. Um, and, and therefore, you know, we've got a series of different arrangements and cooperations.
And actually what's important about this is that this deepens the UK and Polish exercising together. Particularly between our land forces and capabilities. And I think that's a very, very important step forward. And again, a huge contribution to NATO.
And actually what's important about this is that this deepens the UK and Polish exercising together. Particularly between our land forces and capabilities. And I think that's a very, very important step forward. And again, a huge contribution to NATO.
14:18
14:19
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Would it be true to say, Minister, that Poland has expressed concerns about the reduced size of our army and a desire to see us increase numbers in that regard?So it's not simply a question of drones and what we can do together in that area. There are also concerns that the poles have expressed about the size of our army.
14:19
14:19
14:19
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, we all want to see more and we all want to see more capability. Um, and that is the trajectory that we're on. And I'm not going to get ahead of the statement that's being made in parallel. But, um, I think there'll be much to welcome in the statement today and, and much to welcome about the trajectory. And of course, we've got that important NATO summit coming up. But, you know, I know the deep admiration that our Polish friends have for our capabilities and practical impact, because, of course, it's the it's the it's the quality and the, and the capability, um, which is often crucial as well as numbers.
And, uh, you know, we, we have, um, excellent, excellent relations and I think some very unique capabilities that we're working on together. So, um, we all need to invest more in defence in Europe. That is absolutely clear. And that's what we are doing as a government and what we will be setting out today.
And, uh, you know, we, we have, um, excellent, excellent relations and I think some very unique capabilities that we're working on together. So, um, we all need to invest more in defence in Europe. That is absolutely clear. And that's what we are doing as a government and what we will be setting out today.
14:20
14:21
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Yeah. Thank you very much, Mr. Doughty. Now, we've you've already touched on indeed quite elaborately, on why the the treaty goes beyond security and defence issues to include, uh, energy security, illegal migration, and so on. But may I just reinforce, um, in my question the comments of Lord Boateng, because for Poland, one of I, I take what you say about increasing understanding and these are all very good, but in a sense they are feel good factors. What makes the real difference beyond having confidence and capabilities, is seeing practical results.
And for many people in Poland, irrespective of party, one of the great concerns was the withdrawal of the announcement of the withdrawal of NATO troops. So that has been halted and the desire to have some other cast iron guarantee. So, um, could you comment on your view of increasing capabilities and that of those who see more traditional presence as necessary?
And for many people in Poland, irrespective of party, one of the great concerns was the withdrawal of the announcement of the withdrawal of NATO troops. So that has been halted and the desire to have some other cast iron guarantee. So, um, could you comment on your view of increasing capabilities and that of those who see more traditional presence as necessary?
14:21
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, they're all crucial, obviously, and. Um, conventional capability, but also the ability to respond to hybrid and new new threats. And I take, take, for example, an area where, and you'll appreciate, I don't want to go into particular sort of operational details on this, but, um, the, the sort of disinformation threats that we see emanating not least from, from Russia. I mean, I spoke to the Foreign Affairs Committee a few months ago and was very, very clear that Russia is engaged in information warfare against our countries, and they're spending, you know, overtly that we know 1.5 billion a year, €30 million a week.
Um, and, you know, a significant amount of this is attempting to distort narratives and create divisions in, in, in both of our countries and indeed many of our other friends and allies. And, and, and I think the UK and Poland have a very clear headed assessment of that threat and how we can counter it and what we need to do together. And we are absolutely deepening and strengthening the capabilities to do that. That really matters. Another area is the protection of critical national infrastructure, cyber and so on.
And I might bring in, um, George, to say a little bit more about some, some of the details of different things that we're doing together practically in this area.
Um, and, you know, a significant amount of this is attempting to distort narratives and create divisions in, in, in both of our countries and indeed many of our other friends and allies. And, and, and I think the UK and Poland have a very clear headed assessment of that threat and how we can counter it and what we need to do together. And we are absolutely deepening and strengthening the capabilities to do that. That really matters. Another area is the protection of critical national infrastructure, cyber and so on.
And I might bring in, um, George, to say a little bit more about some, some of the details of different things that we're doing together practically in this area.
14:22
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Yes. So what we're looking to do here is, and it plays to one of the earlier points is about how do we develop capabilities that both join our cooperation, but also enhance the collaboration of our industries. So there's that learning together. So we know and there's much to be learned from the lessons from Ukraine as well, in terms of the capabilities that we need going forward, which then supports the NATO element, which takes you back to the article five comment from earlier on.
14:23
14:23
14:23
14:23
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
One of the fascinating aspects of article three, of course, is it talks about creating a bilateral framework to work collaboratively with Europe and regional partners on tackling migration issues. Now, the EU is operating as one. From now on, they have the they introduced this month last month. No, this. This month, the EU migration pact and the associated regulations that went with it. So could you explain how um, a partnership agreement to create a shame, an agreement with Europe more widely would work?And how what is it that would be specifically in that and what will be specifically out of that given unless you can tell us, we're going to move closer towards the EU pact and the relevant regulation that goes with it?
14:24
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Um, so I don't want to get ahead of processes that are going on on the EU, UK, um, summit track. I bring, um, Christine in a moment just so, so I don't want to get ahead of that because there's a wider discussion going on with EU counterparts about how we can work better to tackle these, um, tackle these threats. But I think, I think certainly from my own conversations with Poland, um, you know, they've got some unique expertise and, and, and experience in dealing with challenges at their own border, some of which are similar to ours, some of which are quite different and obviously relate to a land border.
But in terms of intelligence sharing, in terms of techniques, in terms of law enforcement agencies working and learning from one another in terms of new technologies that you might be using at borders to, to deal with irregular migration threats and fundamentally that link as well to serious and organised crime traffickers. Um, and then in some cases, links to hostile states as well. Um, there's a huge amount that we can, we can be doing as the UK and Poland, which is going to naturally complement any wider discussions or dialogues.
We're getting on closer cooperation. And look, the government set out very clearly that we see closer cooperation with the EU as absolutely essential for our national security, and tackling threats from irregular migration. And it's a it's a it's a permanent part of every conversation I have with EU counterparts. Just recent weeks, I've been discussing with our Bulgarian friends, our work together at the Bulgarian Turkish border. I've been discussing with our friends in Hungary just last week. And so this features very naturally in each of our bilateral dialogues, but also, um, uh, then naturally complements any EU track.
Um, but I don't know if you want to add a little on that.
But in terms of intelligence sharing, in terms of techniques, in terms of law enforcement agencies working and learning from one another in terms of new technologies that you might be using at borders to, to deal with irregular migration threats and fundamentally that link as well to serious and organised crime traffickers. Um, and then in some cases, links to hostile states as well. Um, there's a huge amount that we can, we can be doing as the UK and Poland, which is going to naturally complement any wider discussions or dialogues.
We're getting on closer cooperation. And look, the government set out very clearly that we see closer cooperation with the EU as absolutely essential for our national security, and tackling threats from irregular migration. And it's a it's a it's a permanent part of every conversation I have with EU counterparts. Just recent weeks, I've been discussing with our Bulgarian friends, our work together at the Bulgarian Turkish border. I've been discussing with our friends in Hungary just last week. And so this features very naturally in each of our bilateral dialogues, but also, um, uh, then naturally complements any EU track.
Um, but I don't know if you want to add a little on that.
14:25
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Yeah. The minister is quite, quite right. Of course, that migration, particularly irregular migration, particularly irregular migration fuelled by serious and organised crime or indeed malign actors, is an existential threat for us, for all members of all member states of the EU, but for Europe writ large. Um, I would say, first of all, that I think we would welcome the fact that the EU is working internally, um, between member states to, to sort of tackle this issue. Um, and we of course want to work with the EU on it, but I don't think that means that we can't do, um, serious work bilaterally with individual member states, whether that's Poland in this case, um, or for example, um, the, the impact we've seen of our bilateral work with France, um, which has already having quite a significant knock on effect in terms of reduction in, uh, small boat arrivals.
Um, so I think this is a multi-dimensional challenge in which we need to work, um, in a series of different geometries with different European partners. And in that sense, I think the inclusion of migration amongst other security challenges in this new treaty is a significant step forward.
Um, so I think this is a multi-dimensional challenge in which we need to work, um, in a series of different geometries with different European partners. And in that sense, I think the inclusion of migration amongst other security challenges in this new treaty is a significant step forward.
14:26
14:27
Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Thank you very much, chair. You you have, Minister, to some extent touched on this, but I'm just going to ask you to what extent the treaty helps us to address the variety of hybrid threats that the UK and Poland face from Russia and in, in specific terms, what that looks like in terms of it says education and training in lots of places, what that actually looks like. And and further to that, in the 2023 document, there was, uh, it was stated that two countries, Poland, obviously Poland, the UK would explore joint cyber projects in support of Ukraine in the Western Balkans.
Is that ongoing?Is there anything more that you can say about that?
Is that ongoing?Is there anything more that you can say about that?
14:27
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah, I'll bring in Joanna in a moment on some of the detail detail points, but, um, look, the range of hybrid threats are, are extensive. There's, there's disinformation, there's cyber attacks, there's attacks on critical national infrastructure. There's sabotage, there's the activities of so-called so-called, uh, diplomats from, from some countries, um, uh, operating and disrupting. There are, uh, you know, attacks and threats against, um, nationals of, of, of, of, of other countries in third country locations. Um, we've seen obviously, you know, a very extreme end, you know, the use of um, chemical weapons on UK soil.
Um, so these are, these are, these are huge and varied and wide and, and they are being employed by our adversaries and not just Russia, I hasten to add others too. And I think, um, you rightly point about education and training. Um, some of this is really, really crucial that we're starting from first principles here in understanding the nature of the threat and what is having impact and where it's coming from, how it's coming from. Because disinformation, for example, it is impossible for any country, particularly given the volume of disinformation that's out there to, um, respond to every single piece of, you know, a bot on a Facebook page or a false message being passed around on WhatsApp or telegram, whatever it might be.
Um, it's crucial that while working with key partners like Poland that we're understanding where are the real nodes and networks and, and how we, how we take out and disrupt and in some cases, expose those, uh, activities. And if you look at what also we've just done, for example, in the North Atlantic, exposing Russian activity in the North Atlantic, um, showing that we, we know what they're doing, we're happy to expose them for doing so. And we're capable of, uh, disrupting it because that's a very, very important signal to send to our adversaries too.
And we've done that as well through our sanctions, including coordinated sanctions with the, with the EU on, um, you know, different networks, um, cyber networks, disinformation networks and others. Um, but I think there are some particular partners and Poland is one of those who I think really do understand this, have capabilities that match our own and that we can work together. And then as I said, it's not just what we're doing for each other bilaterally and the threats we face from hybrid activities, it's what we then offer to our fellow NATO partners and to others, because these tactics are being tried in multiple locations.
So I'm really delighted with the cooperation we're having. But obviously I won't go into too many individual, um, projects, but I don't know, John.
Um, so these are, these are, these are huge and varied and wide and, and they are being employed by our adversaries and not just Russia, I hasten to add others too. And I think, um, you rightly point about education and training. Um, some of this is really, really crucial that we're starting from first principles here in understanding the nature of the threat and what is having impact and where it's coming from, how it's coming from. Because disinformation, for example, it is impossible for any country, particularly given the volume of disinformation that's out there to, um, respond to every single piece of, you know, a bot on a Facebook page or a false message being passed around on WhatsApp or telegram, whatever it might be.
Um, it's crucial that while working with key partners like Poland that we're understanding where are the real nodes and networks and, and how we, how we take out and disrupt and in some cases, expose those, uh, activities. And if you look at what also we've just done, for example, in the North Atlantic, exposing Russian activity in the North Atlantic, um, showing that we, we know what they're doing, we're happy to expose them for doing so. And we're capable of, uh, disrupting it because that's a very, very important signal to send to our adversaries too.
And we've done that as well through our sanctions, including coordinated sanctions with the, with the EU on, um, you know, different networks, um, cyber networks, disinformation networks and others. Um, but I think there are some particular partners and Poland is one of those who I think really do understand this, have capabilities that match our own and that we can work together. And then as I said, it's not just what we're doing for each other bilaterally and the threats we face from hybrid activities, it's what we then offer to our fellow NATO partners and to others, because these tactics are being tried in multiple locations.
So I'm really delighted with the cooperation we're having. But obviously I won't go into too many individual, um, projects, but I don't know, John.
14:30
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I might just ask if because I know you've got to go. Yeah we can. Five minutes. Yeah. But just a quick follow up question. These are all these are all good things, but surely they're happening already. And why is the treaty going to make a difference?Is there a technical specific point that is going to say tomorrow we're going to have more information sharing among us?I mean, what's the difference?
14:04
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes it is. I think in some of these areas, you also do need to have a very strong framework because often these are also involving working across government, both in the UK and in Poland and indeed with the EU or within different parts of NATO. And it's an important signal and framework that then gives a short underpinning to the engagement we might be having with different parts of the Polish governmental system or otherwise. I mean, I don't know if I want to add anything to it.
14:04
14:04
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And all of our governments are different parts. And look, I have excellent cooperation with my Mod and Home Office colleagues on this. And, and our teams work together very, very closely. But that has to happen in, in, in, in, in all of our partners as well. And I'm confident it happens in Poland. But, um.
14:05