Justice and Home Affairs Committee
Tuesday 30th June 2026
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10:34
10:34
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Good. Right. Welcome. Uh!Order!Order!The meeting is now being recorded, and public proceedings are beginning. Five. Welcome and welcome, everybody, to this, uh, fifth oral evidence session of the Justice and Home Affairs Select Committee. Into fire Safety in prisons. Uh, and we're delighted to welcome three new witnesses. And I'm going to ask you if you could each just introduce yourselves, your title and a broad description of what you actually do.
Who'd want to kick off, please?
Who'd want to kick off, please?
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10:39
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Okay. Thank you very much. Uh, just before we kick off some sort of general background, if we can. I mean, obviously slightly odd that we've got a job share, uh, for this particular post. Um, and you've not been in post that long, so can you just give us a brief outline of how it's going, uh, how you see the work changing in the future?What changes you might be thinking of and so on. Just a rough, very quick summary.
We'll get into the details in a few minutes.
We'll get into the details in a few minutes.
10:39
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think it's fair to say it's been quite a busy and interesting first few weeks in our role. Um, and, uh, in terms of our, our early assessment, um, it's very clear and it became clear early on that we're going to benefit from working with a very committed and professional group of inspectors. Our inspection team are highly expert in the work that they do, and they've got a clear sense of purpose. So that's a great foundation.
10:40
10:40
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Everybody has a base level of inspection expertise, but we do have specialists including Justin and the people that he works with on the prison inspection. Um, so that's a that's a very positive early impression. Um, the other thing that we've noticed during our early work is that there are some important questions surfacing for us. Firstly, uh, how well constructed is our risk based inspection programme across the roughly ten 000 Crown premises that the fire safety order applies to. Is the inspection programme appropriately resourced, both in terms of the overall inspection resources that we've got available to us and how well targeted they are at our inspection work.
Uh, there's a third question about whether we are being as transparent as we could be in the way that we carry out our inspection work. Uh, and as an extension of that, are we being as effective as possible in holding responsible people to account for fire safety standards in Crown premises?And the final question that we've got on our list so far is about assurance. Are we good enough at providing assurance both to senior civil service colleagues and also to ministers, about the effectiveness of fire safety inspection in Crown premises?So at the moment, more questions than answers.
Uh, but I think that's a fair summary of our early impressions.
Uh, there's a third question about whether we are being as transparent as we could be in the way that we carry out our inspection work. Uh, and as an extension of that, are we being as effective as possible in holding responsible people to account for fire safety standards in Crown premises?And the final question that we've got on our list so far is about assurance. Are we good enough at providing assurance both to senior civil service colleagues and also to ministers, about the effectiveness of fire safety inspection in Crown premises?So at the moment, more questions than answers.
Uh, but I think that's a fair summary of our early impressions.
10:41
10:41
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Very possible. Um, we are three weeks into the job, so we're having lots of discussions with lots of people. And these questions have surfaced through those discussions. So they're certainly linked to some concerns that we've heard from other people. But clearly, as the chief inspectors, we're going to need to come to our own conclusions about the answers to those questions over the weeks and months ahead.
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10:43
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yes. Yes. You might well say that um the first thing I'll say is something that I think the uh the committee have heard consistently throughout this inquiry and that is that the inherent risk from fire in prisons is high and it's high for two reasons that are linked to the components of risk. Firstly, likelihood in comparison to other, uh, building settings where there is sleeping accommodation provided there are much higher numbers of fires in prisons than in other residential settings. Uh, around about 120 prisons of population of between 80 to 90,000 prisoners.
And the most recent statistics have demonstrated nearly 3000 fires, which is a much higher prevalence of fire than you would typically find, um, not least because of the levels of deliberate fire setting in prisons, which are running at about 95% currently. So in terms of the chances of a fire starting very high, the other aspect of risk is the consequences of a fire starting. And in a custodial setting, where prisoners are unable to self evacuate, the chances of them coming to harm if a fire starts in their cell are high, unless the fire is detected quickly and there's an efficient response from prison staff to suppress the fire, open the cell and remove the prisoner to a safe place.
So inherently, the risk is high. In general terms, are we where we need to be with fire safety in prisons?Well, no we're not. And you've heard a lot during the course of the inquiry about the major programme of improvement works that HMP are rolling out across the prison estate, both Crown Prisons and private.
And the most recent statistics have demonstrated nearly 3000 fires, which is a much higher prevalence of fire than you would typically find, um, not least because of the levels of deliberate fire setting in prisons, which are running at about 95% currently. So in terms of the chances of a fire starting very high, the other aspect of risk is the consequences of a fire starting. And in a custodial setting, where prisoners are unable to self evacuate, the chances of them coming to harm if a fire starts in their cell are high, unless the fire is detected quickly and there's an efficient response from prison staff to suppress the fire, open the cell and remove the prisoner to a safe place.
So inherently, the risk is high. In general terms, are we where we need to be with fire safety in prisons?Well, no we're not. And you've heard a lot during the course of the inquiry about the major programme of improvement works that HMP are rolling out across the prison estate, both Crown Prisons and private.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
In terms of the inherent risk?No, because the factors that I've just talked you through are present in both public and private. We do think that there is a material difference in that. All private prisons now have in-cell automatic fire detection, which is, in our view, probably the single most important thing when it comes to keeping prisoners safe in their cells. So all private prisons have now got in-cell detection. That's not the case yet. Across the whole, the whole public prison estate.
Uh, so I think there is a difference in that respect. When you look at the small number of private prisons compared to the Crown Estate.
Uh, so I think there is a difference in that respect. When you look at the small number of private prisons compared to the Crown Estate.
10:45
10:45
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
We timetable inspections through carrying out a risk, a process of risk assessment. So we look at various factors that contribute to risk. We look at inspection history in prisons reports that we're having of fires in prisons. Whether there are examples of people being injured or killed in prisons. And also when we receive building regulations, consultation. So if there's an application made to change the layout of the prison, for example, we're notified of that. All of that data and intelligence gets put into a management information system that we have, and that crunches the numbers and comes up with a prioritized list of Crown premises, including prisons with the highest scoring prison at the top of the list, the highest risk prison all the way down to what the system has told us is the lowest risk.
And that generally drives our inspection programme. Although we do sample audit prisons that are lower down. Just to check that the the magic that our management information system is working is, is accurate and we're not missing anything as a result of the inspection work that we're doing.
And that generally drives our inspection programme. Although we do sample audit prisons that are lower down. Just to check that the the magic that our management information system is working is, is accurate and we're not missing anything as a result of the inspection work that we're doing.
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10:47
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
No, we're not using the same assessment as HMP, but they produced the fire safety improvement list through their assessment. Yes, and we do use that list to inform our risk based inspection program in two scenarios in particular. First of all, if we've conducted our risk assessment process and we have a prison that we consider to be relatively high risk, and that then appears as a low priority for improvement. Works in the FSIL that may well trigger an inspection. Alternatively, if we receive notification that fire safety improvement works in a prison have been completed, then that is often a trigger for us to go and independently assess the quality of the improvement works to make sure they've addressed the fire safety deficiencies that they were intended.
10:47
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So given what you've said, it it is a sensible way of doing things that you. Not exactly the same. Because the purpose of what HMP s are doing is slightly different, which is to draw up their priority list. Yours is slightly wider issues. So I mean a recommendation from us that there should be greater um. Coherence between the two would not make sense. Is that right?
10:48
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think that's that's probably right in that in compiling their FSIL they look across the whole prison estate to, to inform their improvement programme, fire safety order requires that we look on an individual prison by prison basis, a premises by premises basis. So our work is more guided by guidance issued by the National Fire Chiefs Council, for example, than it would be than guidance from HMP.
10:48
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10:48
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
In in the coming year. At the moment we're proposing to carry out eight full inspections of prisons and probably about twice as many follow up inspections to check on whether improvements we previously identified are being addressed. Our capacity is slightly inhibited at the moment, because we've recently recruited two new inspectors who are going through a training programme, and in a team of 11, two new ones is quite a large proportion. Uh, typically we would look to carry out an inspection of the whole prison estate in a cycle of seven years.
So eight is less than we would normally do. And we're hoping that our capacity will increase as those new trainees come online and start helping with prison inspection. But about eight inspections this year.
So eight is less than we would normally do. And we're hoping that our capacity will increase as those new trainees come online and start helping with prison inspection. But about eight inspections this year.
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10:51
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
It's a it's certainly a material difference in that from an accountability point of view, uh, responsible persons in private prisons can be held to account through the courts. And that's not a route that's available to us with Crown premises. And, uh, one of the questions that we've got is about whether we are being as good as we can be at holding responsible persons to account, both in private and public prisons. So we do have and we use other processes to try and ensure accountability without having recourse to prosecution.
Um, but whether we can go further in that respect is something we're looking at at the moment. And one of the early steps that we've taken, for example, is a decision to proactively publish enforcement notices that are issued to Crown prisons and step away letters, which we will issue in the event that an enforcement notice is not complied with. We think in the interests of openness and transparency, that's a good thing to do in itself. We also think that by proactively publishing those details, it might increase the pressure on those that are accountable for responding to the contents of the notices.
Um, but whether we can go further in that respect is something we're looking at at the moment. And one of the early steps that we've taken, for example, is a decision to proactively publish enforcement notices that are issued to Crown prisons and step away letters, which we will issue in the event that an enforcement notice is not complied with. We think in the interests of openness and transparency, that's a good thing to do in itself. We also think that by proactively publishing those details, it might increase the pressure on those that are accountable for responding to the contents of the notices.
10:51
10:51
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think that's absolutely clear, not least because we we tell them that when we take enforcement action, uh, and in the most extreme cases where enforcement notices are not complied with, we explain to them that were we able to, in the circumstances that we found we would be prosecuting, but we're unable to do that. So they're absolutely aware that that's the case.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Thank you. Um, so, uh, prevention, detection and suppression need to operate as an integrated system. So, you know, obviously prevention is the first step in that hierarchy of reducing risk. Um, and, um hmm. PBS have been very effective with the safe. Project that you're aware of. Um, some of the statistics that we've seen have shown that that is very effective in reducing misuse of vapes as an ignition source. Um, and also in the year to date, some of the figures that we've had, um, through recently.
Would indicate that fires in cells are down by approximately 30% year to date. Um, so we think that there is some positive impact that is coming from some of the prevention work, uh, and reduction work that hmps have done. And we're very keen to give them credit for that because that is, that is a very effective way of keeping, um, prisoners and staff safe. Um.
Would indicate that fires in cells are down by approximately 30% year to date. Um, so we think that there is some positive impact that is coming from some of the prevention work, uh, and reduction work that hmps have done. And we're very keen to give them credit for that because that is, that is a very effective way of keeping, um, prisoners and staff safe. Um.
10:54
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So I am. Going to just interrupt because we've been provided with figures by HMP p, which suggests that in the current year 2026, up until 31st of May. So it's less than half a year. There have been 36 vape fires, whereas in the whole of 2025 there were 2034, which is a significantly greater than a one third drop that you're suggesting.
10:55
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
So thank you for the opportunity to clarify. So in terms of the, the number of, um, vapes as the ignition source has fallen from about 78% down to about 1.6%. So significant reduction in the misuse of vapes as the ignition source, what we've then done is looked at the consequence of that in terms of number of fires in cells. And that's a approximate 30% reduction. I can easily provide the figures. And actually just just for reassurance, the figures that we use are from HMP.
We use the same data.
We use the same data.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
So I think that the issue for us is about making sure the environment is as safe as possible for prisoners. And obviously staff have to have to deal with, uh, deal with the consequences. Um, the issue for us is, is about how. HMP are managing the, the risk and the vape is one of the contributing factors for that, but it's for them to determine how they manage that risk. And we then look at the efficiency sufficiency and acceptability on that. So it's not for us to determine that.
What you.
What you.
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10:57
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
No, absolutely. And, and the current focus on installing automatic fire detection. We fully support, um, and. Understanding that the system through which fires are dealt with in a prison context is vitally important. And that, um, just by explaining that the earlier the notification that there is a fire, the earlier that those mitigation arrangements can be put in place. So you've got a safe system of work that can be employed by prison staff to, to rescue the person in that fire situation and reduce that further fire spread.
So the early indication is absolutely essential. And that's why we have been pushing Hmps quite hard on automatic fire detection. We'll continue to do so. Yeah.
So the early indication is absolutely essential. And that's why we have been pushing Hmps quite hard on automatic fire detection. We'll continue to do so. Yeah.
10:58
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Yeah. So, so suppression again, is, um, is obviously useful to mitigate that fire spread. And there are portable misting systems. I know you've had evidence presented before about different types of, um, mitigation in terms. Of fire suppression. Um, but there are portable systems that are used at the moment, um, as part of that, uh, the way in which the prison service will deal with fires in cells and suppression is absolutely key because once you've, once you've not been able to prevent a fire, you've then identified that there is a fire and you've then got early notification through automatic fire detection, you then put in place training, which I'm sure we'll touch upon through this session.
Um, and then you need to, to put the fire out and deal with the, the toxic products of combustion as well. So all of those things come together as a system. And we look at the system and how that risk assessment is being controlled. And that will vary from site to site.
Um, and then you need to, to put the fire out and deal with the, the toxic products of combustion as well. So all of those things come together as a system. And we look at the system and how that risk assessment is being controlled. And that will vary from site to site.
11:00
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Of course, pick it up on these points?It's critical. The critical aspect of the suppression is that is that that timely intervention with it, if it's a delayed intervention, obviously the tenability and the self or the occupant is therefore reduced and obviously survivability is reduced consequently. Yeah.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Can you just give us, uh, in sort of 1 or 2 words only having come in very recently, looked around the prison system, looked at all the statistics, noted that there's 40 odd prisons with no form of suppression whatsoever, that there's 24, 25 prisoners with no AfD. What is your overall view of fire safety in prisons?
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Colleagues will have have a view on this, uh, chair, but, um, fundamentally there is a, there is an issue. The reason why you're, you're, you're holding this inquiry is because you recognise that that, that issue. Um, and we, we are concerned with the, the current arrangement, uh, the prison estate, that is a matter of record. We continue to issue crown enforcement notices. We continue to escalate that, um, where those, those issues are not addressed in a timely, timely manner. So from an inspectorate perspective, there are concerns.
We share those concerns. That is a matter of public record. Um we have an enforcement role, but we also have an advisory role and we're happy to work with HMP. And indeed we've set up a series of meetings to do that, to try and help them address what is a very complex.
We share those concerns. That is a matter of public record. Um we have an enforcement role, but we also have an advisory role and we're happy to work with HMP. And indeed we've set up a series of meetings to do that, to try and help them address what is a very complex.
11:01
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Can I just say, I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, but when we started looking at this issue and we started seeing some of the statistics and the lack of funding that's gone in over many years and all of those sorts of things, I don't think any of us came to the conclusion that there are concerns. I think we felt rather more strongly about what we found.
11:02
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think, um, bearing in mind the commitment to improve fire safety across the prison estate was made some 20 years ago. Um, we're a long way down the road and we're still not where we need to be. As I said earlier on, um, I would say that our experience is that there has been an acceleration in progress. So some of the work that has been done in HMP PS to speed things up by focusing on the most important factors that affect fire safety, in particular, the pivot towards installing In-cell AfD, which we know is so fundamentally important for keeping prisoners safe.
We think that that is a very, very positive move. But we are still a long way from where we need to be, which is why, in proportional terms, we issue an enforcement notices far more frequently to prisons than we do to other kinds of premises in the Crown Estate.
We think that that is a very, very positive move. But we are still a long way from where we need to be, which is why, in proportional terms, we issue an enforcement notices far more frequently to prisons than we do to other kinds of premises in the Crown Estate.
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11:03
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Thank you, Lord chairman. Um, very conscious that you've only two of you have only been in, in, in post for three weeks. And the issue that I want to raise is one that already has been mentioned and that is about safety training. Fire safety training and equipment. Have you yet been able to form a view as to. Whether prison staff have the right. Fire safety training and equipment and. The secondary question really.
That follows on. Are staff actually accessing the training that they need?I think I'd understand it if you said. Well, we're not sure yet about that, but I think we've had some evidence that suggests that the safety training may not be as good as it should be, given the circumstances. I'm happy as to whoever answers first.
That follows on. Are staff actually accessing the training that they need?I think I'd understand it if you said. Well, we're not sure yet about that, but I think we've had some evidence that suggests that the safety training may not be as good as it should be, given the circumstances. I'm happy as to whoever answers first.
11:04
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Yeah, no, I'm happy to I'm happy to start. I, I share those concerns. We share those concerns in terms of training. Um, I've looked at some of the enforcement notices that have been issued in the last five years. Um, we have issued, um. Six thank you. Six crown enforcement notices. Um, in the last, uh, in the last five years that are related in some way, shape or form to training. Um, and one of those we have escalated.
So one of those was issued in 2022. Um, it was escalated in 2024. Um, and we haven't yet been able to close that off. There are, there are concerns. We still have some concerns. Um, and we continue to, to push for, um. Reassurance that actually some of that training is where, where it needs to be. However, um, for balance out of those enforcement notices, all but one have been discharged. So there is only one issue now that um is still outstanding and that is in the process of being discharged as we speak.
In fact, there is a, there is a pilot that concludes this month and subject to the outcome of that pilot, I expect him to be confirming that actually, our concerns that we raised some time ago have now been addressed by the arrangements they've put in place. I think they mentioned, about the virtual reality training on the use of fire extinguishers, um, on their, their evidence session. So, um, training, the reason why we continue to focus on training and our future inspection programme will, uh. Will make sure we've got at least as much focus on training as we have in the past.
Um, is because that safe system of work, that prison environment, as, as, uh, as, as the committee know, is challenging, it is dangerous. And so therefore your safe system of work, your response has to be effective. And that requires every person that could be called upon to deliver that training and that mitigation to be effective in the role that they do. So we have had concerns in the past. We have one concern at the moment. Um, but it is an area that we will fundamentally keep at the top of our agenda for all the reasons that you've outlined.
So one of those was issued in 2022. Um, it was escalated in 2024. Um, and we haven't yet been able to close that off. There are, there are concerns. We still have some concerns. Um, and we continue to, to push for, um. Reassurance that actually some of that training is where, where it needs to be. However, um, for balance out of those enforcement notices, all but one have been discharged. So there is only one issue now that um is still outstanding and that is in the process of being discharged as we speak.
In fact, there is a, there is a pilot that concludes this month and subject to the outcome of that pilot, I expect him to be confirming that actually, our concerns that we raised some time ago have now been addressed by the arrangements they've put in place. I think they mentioned, about the virtual reality training on the use of fire extinguishers, um, on their, their evidence session. So, um, training, the reason why we continue to focus on training and our future inspection programme will, uh. Will make sure we've got at least as much focus on training as we have in the past.
Um, is because that safe system of work, that prison environment, as, as, uh, as, as the committee know, is challenging, it is dangerous. And so therefore your safe system of work, your response has to be effective. And that requires every person that could be called upon to deliver that training and that mitigation to be effective in the role that they do. So we have had concerns in the past. We have one concern at the moment. Um, but it is an area that we will fundamentally keep at the top of our agenda for all the reasons that you've outlined.
11:07
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
You can you will know. Well, the fire safety in prisons establishment policy document, I'm sure already by now that all staff were either directly or indirectly employed have got to be provided with adequate fire safety induction information, instruction and training, and that it should be repeated annually and that there are other considerations, too, that are set out. We heard evidence in a previous inquiry into prisons, and this is a, quote, only 25% of band 3 to 5 staff say they receive regular training that is relevant to their role.
We don't think that the number of officers who feel unsafe, and the lack of relevant and regular training is unrelated. So there clearly has been a problem in the past. So are you. What's your comment on that?Quote, on that quote, and something that I think we found rather worrying in that last report.
We don't think that the number of officers who feel unsafe, and the lack of relevant and regular training is unrelated. So there clearly has been a problem in the past. So are you. What's your comment on that?Quote, on that quote, and something that I think we found rather worrying in that last report.
11:07
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Yeah. No, I, we share those. We share those concerns. So the Prison Service note is very clear in terms of what the expectation is. But our expectations document that I know the committee have have have discussed goes into a lot more detail in terms of the behaviours and the outcomes that that training needs to deliver. It needs to be effective. It's not just about the input, it's not the acquisition on its on its own. It's about the application of that training.
So one of the things that the inspectors will do when they undertake a visit is not only look at the the record of training and has it been complied with?And is is there evidence that confirms that the requirement is being complied with. But they'll also test that as they walk around with, um prison staff and give them scenarios to say, in this event, what would you do to test that?So they're triangulating that, um, that, that training expectation with what we're interested in is, do you know what you're doing when you need to do what you need to do?And that those two things we bring together, both on site during the inspection, but also, um, through, through, through the, the risk based approach that we adopt.
So one of the things that the inspectors will do when they undertake a visit is not only look at the the record of training and has it been complied with?And is is there evidence that confirms that the requirement is being complied with. But they'll also test that as they walk around with, um prison staff and give them scenarios to say, in this event, what would you do to test that?So they're triangulating that, um, that, that training expectation with what we're interested in is, do you know what you're doing when you need to do what you need to do?And that those two things we bring together, both on site during the inspection, but also, um, through, through, through the, the risk based approach that we adopt.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Our position with the order is that in general terms it is fit for purpose. We think that having a risk based approach that places responsibility for management of fire safety standards on the people who are responsible for managing the building generally, is the right approach. If there is a gap, we don't think it's in the order. We think it's in the guidance that is available for the way that the order is applied in prison settings. And in fact, the gap that exists is the very reason that KFC have published their expectations.
Document. Close that gap so that there is guidance available specifically tailored to the particular circumstances of the prison. So not an issue with the order, but the guidance could be better. But we think we've done a good job of plugging that gap.
Document. Close that gap so that there is guidance available specifically tailored to the particular circumstances of the prison. So not an issue with the order, but the guidance could be better. But we think we've done a good job of plugging that gap.
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Dealing with the expectations, documents and the guidance. You have recently said, though in the guidance that actually some of the PSI that specifically relates to managing cell fires you don't think complies with the fire safety order. I think it's specifically in relation to the safety of prisoners rather than the safety of staff. So are you wanting to see action on that and what's the timescale for that?
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11:11
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Um, when we reviewed and revised our expectations documents, it's the second version that's recently been published. Uh, we did that work in regular consultation with the National Fire Safety Advisers in HMP. No concerns raised about what we ultimately published in our document. But you're absolutely right that in our document, we do highlight a difference between the safe system of work is in the PSI document and the focus on that system of work being safe for the prison officers who are responding to the fire.
And in our view, that overlooks the point that when a fire starts in a prison cell, by far the most vulnerable person in that scenario is the prisoner. And therefore the system of work should be built around the safety of the prisoner, ensuring that staff are kept safe in the way that they respond, of course, but we think that the balance is wrong there, and that's why we highlighted that issue specifically. So on the PSI document, my view would be that if we have published new expectations, HMP should review their own guidance to check that there's good alignment between the two documents.
But there is that specific point that you've identified that I think needs to be addressed in their guidance.
And in our view, that overlooks the point that when a fire starts in a prison cell, by far the most vulnerable person in that scenario is the prisoner. And therefore the system of work should be built around the safety of the prisoner, ensuring that staff are kept safe in the way that they respond, of course, but we think that the balance is wrong there, and that's why we highlighted that issue specifically. So on the PSI document, my view would be that if we have published new expectations, HMP should review their own guidance to check that there's good alignment between the two documents.
But there is that specific point that you've identified that I think needs to be addressed in their guidance.
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Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
I'll just quickly follow up. When you say that you think that the um the order itself is fit for purpose, but the gap is in the guidance as to where that should be implemented in prison. When you talk about guidance, are you talking about the Prison Service instruction document as it relates to fire policy, or is it something else?
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
It's absolutely not. There are a suite of documents that provide options for how the requirements of the audit the auditor met, and it's down for the responsible persons to decide the approach that they use to meet the requirements of the order. Our position is that prisons are unique in terms of the nature of risk, and therefore you need very carefully tailored guidance that you can apply to meet the requirements of the order.
11:13
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
Would you prefer to see, um, the way guidance on this particular issue is issued, issued to prisons to be different, for it to be corralled in one place. So there's absolute clarity for the responsible person on the site in the prison as to how they should be interpreting the order. What do you make of a system in which that person has to call from here, there and everywhere?A view as to how they will respond.
11:14
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Instinctively. That sounds like a very attractive idea. Uh, but being quite old, I do reflect on a previous regime that was much more prescriptive in terms of fire safety standards and what people must do. One of the weaknesses in that regime was it didn't allow flexibility at a local level. So I think, um, the idea of generic guidance that is focused on prisons is a, there has to be flexibility so that what actually happens in individual prisons is tailored to the particular and unique circumstances of those premises.
11:14
11:15
11:15
11:15
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Just talking about amending PSI documents, can I read a section to you to ensure that staff are fully aware of the procedures they must follow in the case of a fire or other emergency?Annual fire evacuation drills must be carried out for all occupied buildings. The effectiveness of the procedures for evacuation should be evaluated and significant issues addressed. Do you believe that that should still be in force?It is, in fact, from the PSI document of 2015.
11:16
11:16
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
You do need to make sure it's happening, you say. But in truth, the reality is it hardly ever happens. And the nearest equivalent we get to having it is a computer based modelling exercise carried out by managers, the very people who. Themselves. In the event of a need for an evacuation, would not be involved in having any responsibility for the evacuation. Isn't there something dreadfully wrong?I mean, I know how difficult it is to evacuate a prison or part of a prison.
I appreciate that absolutely, entirely. But nevertheless, if there is a PSI that you say is makes sense and it's not happening, isn't there something dreadfully wrong?
I appreciate that absolutely, entirely. But nevertheless, if there is a PSI that you say is makes sense and it's not happening, isn't there something dreadfully wrong?
11:17
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I. I think. It's vitally important that things that are written in plans are tested in the real world. Um, and generally speaking, the, the strategy for dealing with fires in prison is basically a stay put policy. So you deal with the fire in the prison cell quickly and effectively, and the building structure will prevent that fire from spreading and affecting the safety of other prisoners. But we know that that is not always the case. And there's been an example recently of fire spread, um, which wasn't anticipated.
And the requirement for evacuation. So as a plan, A stay put. And the approach that's used is absolutely right, but there needs to be a fallback position, a full evacuation. And if that is your fallback position, the only time you're going to need it is when something has gone seriously wrong. And therefore, staff do need to be confident in what they have to do and be confident that it will actually work in those kind of circumstances.
And the requirement for evacuation. So as a plan, A stay put. And the approach that's used is absolutely right, but there needs to be a fallback position, a full evacuation. And if that is your fallback position, the only time you're going to need it is when something has gone seriously wrong. And therefore, staff do need to be confident in what they have to do and be confident that it will actually work in those kind of circumstances.
11:18
11:18
11:18
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Well, in an ideal world, without without crown immunity, we would have the full powers of the enforcement of the order at our disposal in all environments, including publicly operated prisons. But in reality, that's not the case. And I think these already covered this. We don't envisage crown immunity not being a thing any time soon. So, um. As of now, we're exercising what we have within our legal gift in the public public prison environment. And the step away is sort of, um.
Accelerated that beyond serving notices, which basically have no statute, if you will, uh, can't be challenged by the responsible person through appeal through the courts either. I might add, as it stands. So we're just communicating through the step away at the moment. So ideally, we'd like to have full powers in all environments, but we don't.
Accelerated that beyond serving notices, which basically have no statute, if you will, uh, can't be challenged by the responsible person through appeal through the courts either. I might add, as it stands. So we're just communicating through the step away at the moment. So ideally, we'd like to have full powers in all environments, but we don't.
11:20
11:20
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Something tangible in terms of when we've served a notice a particular environment. So a hypothetical environment of a prison that is remiss of in-cell automatic fire detection as. A high number of fires per annum, with even examples of. Injuries. The design of the wing is also a closed, enclosed landing environment, so not a traditional atrium environment from Victorian prisons. I'm sure you could all sort of picture in your heads.
11:20
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Picture in your heads. So a closed corridor environment. So during a cell fire, potentially that cell, that corridor is going to get compromised by smoke when the cell door is opened. So that affects the visibility and toxic toxicity of the environment for the people operating in it and the prisoners residing in. And if you haven't got the right firefighting equipment, i.e. water misting equipment, clearly you've got a fire strategy that's failing. So from our perspective, we're going to communicate that in terms of enforcing that.
And there is also potential for prohibiting something. I know that sounds inflammatory, but out in the civilian world, if you were, for example, in a care home or a hospital where you've got vulnerable individuals and you've got a fire alarm system that's either not there or not operating, you're potentially restricting the use of that building. And I don't think there's a fire and rescue authority in the country that's not going to consider that approach. Now, we don't have those tools at our disposal. And clearly doing that in a prison environment creates a whole multitude of logistical, political, reputational, um, as well as the sort of moral and legal, um, uh, problems for those, for those responsible.
So that's a potential scenario that you have that you could have, but we would serve a note. We would serve a crown enforcement notice where we found that you had ineffective or, um, uh, missing. Uh, fire, automatic fire detection in a residential area. Um, if you had ineffective, uh, water misting equipment, and if you had no mechanical smoke control to clear the smoke from a corridor approach environment. And indeed, we have numerous notices that remain extant, including step away notices where they are, failures contained within the schedules.
And there is also potential for prohibiting something. I know that sounds inflammatory, but out in the civilian world, if you were, for example, in a care home or a hospital where you've got vulnerable individuals and you've got a fire alarm system that's either not there or not operating, you're potentially restricting the use of that building. And I don't think there's a fire and rescue authority in the country that's not going to consider that approach. Now, we don't have those tools at our disposal. And clearly doing that in a prison environment creates a whole multitude of logistical, political, reputational, um, as well as the sort of moral and legal, um, uh, problems for those, for those responsible.
So that's a potential scenario that you have that you could have, but we would serve a note. We would serve a crown enforcement notice where we found that you had ineffective or, um, uh, missing. Uh, fire, automatic fire detection in a residential area. Um, if you had ineffective, uh, water misting equipment, and if you had no mechanical smoke control to clear the smoke from a corridor approach environment. And indeed, we have numerous notices that remain extant, including step away notices where they are, failures contained within the schedules.
11:22
11:22
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Yeah. For new prisons, definitely. We have um. It's not isolated, just prisons. Sometimes we see people send the consultations to the local authority because they don't realise we're actually the enforcing authority and the statutory consultee in that process. But yes, we are consulted at the design stage and we will make comment under building regulations. So so we have no problem with that aspect. Uh, retrofitting is something different, uh, and can be problematic, particularly in the old Victorian prisons for obvious reasons.
And I think that's been spoken about before with the, with the.
And I think that's been spoken about before with the, with the.
11:23
11:23
11:23
11:23
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
No, I'm not saying that. No, I'm saying that we would be consulted, but I can't say what I don't know. So if there have been examples and I'm not saying there are where retrofits have occurred and we're not aware of them and have not been consulted, I can't comment whether that's a thing or not, but I have had examples, and colleagues in the team have had examples where where we've been consulted on retrofitted fire safety improvement works through the building regulations and an approved or a registered building inspector.
11:23
11:23
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
So just in terms of the the the powers that we currently have, um, in the last few weeks, we've decided that, um, we need to escalate those letters to ministerial level. Um and so that is a process we've put in place because ultimately ministers will hold senior civil servants to account for the delivery of the improvements that we've identified. Um, we have, as Andy, Andy mentioned, about, um, publishing the, the crown enforcement notices and providing a bit more visibility, uh, allowing scrutiny to, to be exercised. Um, so that's currently what, uh, what, what we have done within the existing arrangement that we can, um, we can enhance, but we're also looking at other arrangements that other agencies and government departments have to raise concerns to elicit a response.
So we're in the process of understanding what that looks like. And then, uh, taking a view on that. So, um, if that helps.
So we're in the process of understanding what that looks like. And then, uh, taking a view on that. So, um, if that helps.
11:24
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Yeah. So, um, specifically, we're aware that the Health and Safety Executive have a process that they can use for crown censure. Uh, and also HMI prisons have a process that involves them writing a formal letter to. HMM, which they are required. The secretary of state actually, which they're required to respond to within 28 days. The thing that we're interested in, as you'd expect, is the outcome is on getting fire safety deficiencies fixed as quickly as possible. And in the absence of a power to hold responsible persons to account through the courts, we need to look at all the other levers that are available to us to apply the necessary pressure to get the work done in a reasonable amount of time, and that's the range of options that we're looking at currently.
We think there is more that we can do, whether it gets us to a point where we're happy with. In the end, we'll have to wait and see.
We think there is more that we can do, whether it gets us to a point where we're happy with. In the end, we'll have to wait and see.
11:25
11:25
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Just on that very last point, then, I want to bring in Baroness Berridge. Um, in terms and apologies. I should know this, but I'm now getting myself a bit confused in relation to the Chief Inspector of Prisons at the moment. If he sends a report, the government are required, as you said, to respond within 28 days. At the moment you have made what I think is a great decision, commend you for it, making your notices public, which I think is a really good move on transparency.
AM I correct in thinking that at the moment there is not the 28 day requirement to respond and presumably one of the recommendations you want is at least a requirement that they respond and that that response is published.
AM I correct in thinking that at the moment there is not the 28 day requirement to respond and presumably one of the recommendations you want is at least a requirement that they respond and that that response is published.
11:26
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
I pick up on that one in our letter. Sorry, sorry. Just picking up on letters when we send a notice out in the in the narrative that supports the schedule to the notice, and the crown enforcement, it does require the duty holder to provide us with an action plan within 28 days of that notice being served. So we do ask them to respond at that point.
11:26
11:26
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
We ask for it, but because of crown immunity are we do get them. There's never been a case where we don't get one. Right. But because our powers are limited by article 49 of the fire safety order, we can make the request for it. And we do get we generally do get a response in the form of an action plan.
11:27
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
So that that that's absolutely right. In terms of the enforcement notices, which is a formal notice that we've introduced as an informal escalation, is the issue of a step away letter. Yeah. Which is a different thing. It's not a statutory notice. And in the the arrangements that we have in place, there is no expectation that we'll receive a response within a specific period of time. What we do in the letter is we confirm that until we hear news that the deficiencies that the enforcement notice related to have been fixed, that enforcement notice remains extant, and that we are now notifying you that those risks still exist.
We know about them and you know about them. And in the event of a serious fire happening, there is evidence now available which will be in the public domain that demonstrates that you were aware of these risks and didn't respond to them in what we consider to be an appropriate period of time.
We know about them and you know about them. And in the event of a serious fire happening, there is evidence now available which will be in the public domain that demonstrates that you were aware of these risks and didn't respond to them in what we consider to be an appropriate period of time.
11:28
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Very good. Well, one of the things we'd be grateful for, not now, because time will run out. But when you go away, if you could just think of in terms of the question you've asked, the details of any specific, realistic changes to your powers, we would be very keen to know we have the opportunity, obviously, with the report, to raise with ministers and make public. And of course, we have the minister coming in in about ten minutes, so we might end up asking those questions of him anyway.
Baroness Berridge.
Baroness Berridge.
11:28
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Thank you, Lord chairman. Mr. fry, you mentioned that there have been an occasion recently of needing to evacuate rather than a self-contained fire, having. Previously been a volunteer for a charity at any one time in the prison. It's actually quite surprising how many volunteers, whether that's through chaplaincy or the IMB, are actually on the premises as well. So have you. And in all that I've seen read its staff and the prisoners within, whether it's guidance or enforcement, is there ever a case for saying that actually the situation is such in a step away letter that volunteers should not be within that prison estate at that time?And what is the duty regarding staff to the volunteers in the estate at the time?
11:29
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
So the fire safety order is very specific, that it is focused on the life safety of not just people who work in prisons or the prisoners. Anybody who resorts to the premises. So we, in carrying out the risk assessment, the risk assessors should look at who is likely to be in the prison, apart from the prisoners and the staff, and make sure that they receive the information they need about five procedures, etc., when they arrive so that their safety is looked after properly. And when we audit the quality of their fire risk assessments, that is a factor that we take into consideration, I'm sure.
Thank you.
Thank you.
11:29
11:29
11:29
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Yes, thank you and good, good. Good morning. Um, there seems to be a number of inspectors and regulators who have some involvement with this whole whole area. So how does the CP work with these other bodies?HMM. I p coroner's inquests and so on. What level of cooperation is there or would you like it to be?
11:30
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Yeah. Thank you. Um, so there is cooperation. Our notices are um copied to. HMI prisons on all occasions. So they are cited when we have a concern we notify them. They can then use that as part of their intelligence planning and inspection planning arrangements. Um we do get some degree of reports from my. Um however we have written and we're in the process of arranging a series of meetings with um, HMI prisons to see how we can make the arrangements between um CP FC and HMI prisons more effective.
We do have a memorandum of understanding that clarifies information sharing and includes issues such as shadowing of visits, um, which, which is, which is great. Um, but we feel there's another conversation that is needed to strengthen that relationship and to strengthen the information sharing. So linked to that, there is a, um, cross-government information sharing agreement, um, that we are not currently signatories to. We have requested to be a signatory to that arrangement. In reality, it doesn't stop us sharing information. It would just demonstrate that we are working in a more integrated way.
And I think there's more that we can do and should do to do that. But we do share information. We certainly provide HMI prisons with, um, our findings. Um, and I think there's more to be done there.
We do have a memorandum of understanding that clarifies information sharing and includes issues such as shadowing of visits, um, which, which is, which is great. Um, but we feel there's another conversation that is needed to strengthen that relationship and to strengthen the information sharing. So linked to that, there is a, um, cross-government information sharing agreement, um, that we are not currently signatories to. We have requested to be a signatory to that arrangement. In reality, it doesn't stop us sharing information. It would just demonstrate that we are working in a more integrated way.
And I think there's more that we can do and should do to do that. But we do share information. We certainly provide HMI prisons with, um, our findings. Um, and I think there's more to be done there.
11:32
11:32
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
I'll just pick. On the my relationship that. Earlier in the conversation we were talking about how um, we develop our risk based inspection program. So we will analyse their, their sort of draft reports and pick out any sort of safety related factors. So that's just an additional part of the relationship where that information sharing, uh, is an additional risk factor that we'll consider when we're developing our risk based inspection program.
11:33
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Yeah. So I think, um hmm. Prisons and um, CP fc are doing. Two things that are separate, but are there's an overlap. So that sharing of information is, is, is key. And this, this, this example is, is, is one of those, um, we can't and we don't require our findings to be reflected in their reports. They would say it's for them to determine what goes into their reports. Um, but I do think there is more that we, uh, that, that, that we can, uh, that, that we can do not least about shared understanding of risk.
So if, for example, back to an earlier point about training, if we identify concerns in terms of the degree to which training is effective to mitigate a fire safety area of concern, there might also be something of interest for HMI prisons to think about that. Is there a wider training deficiency elsewhere within the prison?So, um, the the two things can work together. They are different, but they should work better together. And, and that's something that we, we want to improve moving forward.
So if, for example, back to an earlier point about training, if we identify concerns in terms of the degree to which training is effective to mitigate a fire safety area of concern, there might also be something of interest for HMI prisons to think about that. Is there a wider training deficiency elsewhere within the prison?So, um, the the two things can work together. They are different, but they should work better together. And, and that's something that we, we want to improve moving forward.
11:34
11:34
11:35
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Not 100%. I would suspect, because of the reality of staff turnover and the number of new prison officers, I think we're we're confident that the vast majority of prison officers have had a basic level of training. So understanding theory, what they should do, but because of levels of turnover, I think it is, uh, it's, it's on the record that whilst prison officers in very high numbers might understand the theory of what they need to do, many of them don't have practical experience of applying that training and that that creates a risk that we are alive to.
And Lee explained earlier about the way that our inspectors triangulate information by actually talking to the inspectors when they're in prisons, to see whether what they say they would do in the event of a fire reflects what they've heard and read in policy documents and training records, etc..
And Lee explained earlier about the way that our inspectors triangulate information by actually talking to the inspectors when they're in prisons, to see whether what they say they would do in the event of a fire reflects what they've heard and read in policy documents and training records, etc..
11:35
11:35
11:36
11:36
11:36
11:36
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Are you aware of the fire arrangements of this building?Are you aware that all the prisoners here are required to go through every single year?A very detailed online exercise that if we don't do it, we have our chief whips or relevant conveners, uh, getting very concerned about our statistics. It's a big issue in this building. And that's true of the staff who work here and everything else. And I have to say, I do find the difference between this place where we're all free to walk out of it, and prisons where prisoners are not.
The concept of prisoners knowing what to do in the event of a fire is never raised by Hmpps or anybody, it is slightly worrying.
The concept of prisoners knowing what to do in the event of a fire is never raised by Hmpps or anybody, it is slightly worrying.
11:37
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
On that chair in our inspections, we will look at that as part of the preventative measures. Ahead of looking at the. The general fire precaution measures. And that's about information that's provided to prisoners as part of their induction process and their journey through the their their prison journey, is it will. And that's more challenging for the, for the prison service, particularly where they're on remand or the churn is high and they're moving through the prison estate because it's more difficult to embed those, those well thought out and purposeful messages.
Um, so we do recognise that, but it is something we do examine, um, that, that information to prisoners as part of our inspection process.
Um, so we do recognise that, but it is something we do examine, um, that, that information to prisoners as part of our inspection process.
11:37
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Now finally, and we must, I'm afraid, come to an end. Uh, the government rather belatedly, in our view, announced they weren't going to meet their 2027 targets. We know all about that. But we also know there's a very large number of prisoners don't even have automatic fire detection installed. What is your belief as to how quickly that AfD in all prisons will be in place?And is that a key issue for you?
11:38
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Uh, yes, it is absolutely a key issue for us. Um, partly because whilst HMP s take a whole estate view, when they're putting their programme of fire safety improvements together, our focus because we regulate the fire safety order is on individual prison premises. And if we if we identify fire safety deficiencies, one of the things that we need to know if we're going to issue and have a notice discharged is how long it's going to take to fix the deficiencies. So we think both in terms of the work that we do and also on the point of accountability, I know it's complex, but it's very important that there are clear deadlines attached to the fire safety improvement works that Hmps are proposing to do.
11:38
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Thank you. That's very helpful. We'll raise the issue of deadlines in a few minutes with the Minister. On behalf of the committee. Thank you so much. Uh, it's I mean, we're fully appreciated that you're relatively new into this also, job share, which is also itself different, uh, situation. Uh, I think we've been very impressed by the graphs you've got of the situation already and grateful very much for your answers. If there are further things you want to draw to our attention, anything you want to add, please get in touch with us as quickly as possible on behalf of the entire committee, thank you all very much indeed.
Order, order!The sitting is now. Proceedings are resuming. Five. Welcome to this sixth and final session of the Justice and Home Affairs Select Committee. Inquiry into fire Safety in prisons. And we're absolutely delighted. Uh, as our final set of witnesses, we have the prisons minister and some of his officials. It would be very helpful if we could, just to start, put on the record who each of you are and what your jobs are.
Minister, would you be kind enough to start us off?
Order, order!The sitting is now. Proceedings are resuming. Five. Welcome to this sixth and final session of the Justice and Home Affairs Select Committee. Inquiry into fire Safety in prisons. And we're absolutely delighted. Uh, as our final set of witnesses, we have the prisons minister and some of his officials. It would be very helpful if we could, just to start, put on the record who each of you are and what your jobs are.
Minister, would you be kind enough to start us off?
11:40
11:40
11:40
11:40
11:41
11:41
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
Well, it's been a constant topic of conversation over the last very nearly two years since I've been doing this job. And, you know, I've I've been fortunate to sort of whilst I'm conscious that there's a lot of executive work that. The officials, James and Cohen here will know a lot. The details. Um, I've been fortunate that I've seen the training videos. Um, I do a lot of prison visits, so speak to staff about it. And then when we had the fire recently at HMP High Point, um, you know, speaking to governor, writing to the teams, understanding what went on there, you know, getting over 100 people out in six minutes was a great example of it working.
Um, and I know there's further investigations going on on that, but I think from, from, from what I see, um, the officials are very much engaged. And on top of this, um, but not complacent.
Um, and I know there's further investigations going on on that, but I think from, from, from what I see, um, the officials are very much engaged. And on top of this, um, but not complacent.
11:42
Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
And I mean, can I ask you, I mean, you mentioned HMP highpoint and other incidents which we've been covering on this committee. We've interviewed both of you about this. How do you feel generally?Again, a general question, but how do you feel we compare internationally in the way that we respond?Um, and the assets that we have to deal with this.
11:42
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
I think, um the. Obviously we're dealing with. Roughly 9000 people in prison, of which 1000 are known fire starters. And I'm sure that's the same internationally as well. So we you know, there are lots of good reasons why we need to compare notes. Um, and also work not internationally and, and nationally. And on the, um, you know, we've had visits from France, um, the USA, the Irish and Australian, um prison services and I've been fortunate to go to Spain, um, Northern Ireland and Albania to have a look at what they do there.
But that wasn't specifically for fire safety, but the French, the Americans, the Irish, the Australians specifically came here to look at really our processes and training and what we've been doing on safe, safer vapes. I'm not sure. Maybe I can ask officials about what we've what's been going the other way.
But that wasn't specifically for fire safety, but the French, the Americans, the Irish, the Australians specifically came here to look at really our processes and training and what we've been doing on safe, safer vapes. I'm not sure. Maybe I can ask officials about what we've what's been going the other way.
11:43
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
I think it's quite hard to get, um, a complete picture on the international on key international metrics. Um, different systems, different prisons with different functions. Um, so we're keen to learn from others at the moment. People are keen to see what we're doing. So I'm not here claiming we're world leading. Um, but I am saying that we're seeing people really interested in the progress that we've made over the last, say, ten years. Some of the work that we're doing on different technologies.
Um, I think there's probably more we can do to, to understand where we, you know, other jurisdictions, the frequency of fires and what they're looking at. But, um, you know, like Lord Timpson, I was in Northern Ireland recently. They have a very different set of risks. Um, they're still in, you can still smoke cigarettes in Northern Ireland prisons. Um, and so, uh, talking about how they view fire safety risks, um, because that's unimaginable to us now. So, so many years that we've been smoke free in that way on the estate.
So we're still very curious about what's going on internationally. But Cohen, you're close to this. Anything specific?
Um, I think there's probably more we can do to, to understand where we, you know, other jurisdictions, the frequency of fires and what they're looking at. But, um, you know, like Lord Timpson, I was in Northern Ireland recently. They have a very different set of risks. Um, they're still in, you can still smoke cigarettes in Northern Ireland prisons. Um, and so, uh, talking about how they view fire safety risks, um, because that's unimaginable to us now. So, so many years that we've been smoke free in that way on the estate.
So we're still very curious about what's going on internationally. But Cohen, you're close to this. Anything specific?
11:45
11:45
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Ireland, Australia and France, all seeking to learn from us over the last two years. And actually, if we look at our Irish and French partners, they've adopted some of our measures in terms of suppression technology. So we're really pleased. But James is absolutely right. We do. We do need to lean in more to other jurisdictions to look at what they're doing.
11:46
11:46
11:46
Speaker 18
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Speaker 18
Could we get into the detail of staff training?Because we've obviously had a lot of evidence, both written and verbal, which suggests that staff training just simply isn't sort of where it should be. I mean, if I could just read to you only 25%, uh, one quote from the Prisons and Probation Ombudsman told us that only 25% of banned 3 to 5 staff say they receive regular training that is relevant to their role. Um, so I just put the very simple question, are you satisfied that all staff are appropriately trained in the event of a fire?
11:46
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
Um. It's been helpful having um. Frank over here. Frank is seconded to my private office for the last two weeks, and he is a band three officer with two years service at HMP Berwyn, and, um, he's been a fantastic addition to our team, but he's also we're preparing for this, um, committee. I've been drilling him on what happened. What's training have you had, um, how it's worked, what, what can go wrong and so on. And I've had a lot of reassurance from that.
And also going around prisons and drilling into the questions, um, getting ready for today. You know, I think operational staff receive regular annual training. Um, 84% complete the refresher within the 84% have completed the refresher course within the past 12 months nationally, and 100% of those who are night trained who do the night duties, um, the drills are mandated annually and compliance is at 95%, I guess because we're dealing operationally with other risks as well. We'll never get to 100%. Um, but from someone.
Who's run a, quite a complex business, admittedly, it's not a prison where we're locking people up at night. Um, and seeing the training videos, speaking to staff, seeing how it's very practical, the training we do and seeing what's happened at high point with a really professional and fast response, um, with no injuries or loss of life. Um, you know, I'm satisfied that I think the teams have done a really thorough job.
And also going around prisons and drilling into the questions, um, getting ready for today. You know, I think operational staff receive regular annual training. Um, 84% complete the refresher within the 84% have completed the refresher course within the past 12 months nationally, and 100% of those who are night trained who do the night duties, um, the drills are mandated annually and compliance is at 95%, I guess because we're dealing operationally with other risks as well. We'll never get to 100%. Um, but from someone.
Who's run a, quite a complex business, admittedly, it's not a prison where we're locking people up at night. Um, and seeing the training videos, speaking to staff, seeing how it's very practical, the training we do and seeing what's happened at high point with a really professional and fast response, um, with no injuries or loss of life. Um, you know, I'm satisfied that I think the teams have done a really thorough job.
11:48
11:48
11:48
Speaker 18
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Speaker 18
And thank you for that, that answer. But I mean, could we just drill into a little bit of the detail of what you believe the training actually to be?I mean, is this sort of literally just doing a quick course on a computer?Because, I mean, when we went round prisons ourselves, you know, the prison officers were saying to us, look, we don't even have time for, uh, appraisals. And I just can't it feels inconceivable to me that the sort of annual training that they should be taking, in addition to their induction training, um, really can be that thorough because they're just, you know, due to sort of high turnover of staff, the sort of workload pressures.
I just would love to know what you actually, what you believe to be what that a induction training is, and also what the sort of annual refresher actually is.
I just would love to know what you actually, what you believe to be what that a induction training is, and also what the sort of annual refresher actually is.
11:48
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
Well, I mean, I've seen the, the refresher video myself. I thought it was really clear. And if the committee would like to see it, I'm very happily send it over if that would be helpful. Um, you know, and as someone who's run a practical business before I thought was spot on, um, I think the pressure that the prison service has been under for a long time undoubtedly creates pressures across the organisation. Staffing levels, experience of staffing, um, and just the whole day to day operations.
So I can see why there's a huge amount of pressure going on within all the demands of the risks that we're managing. But from what I'm seeing. And from what I trusted people, I speak to, um, I think it is pretty much there, but I do take your point that there'll be some prisons where it's a lot more stable and it's a lot easier to get these kind of things done day to day. The sort of the muscle memory of it. But maybe if I could, um, defer to James here to, to fill in the gaps.
So I can see why there's a huge amount of pressure going on within all the demands of the risks that we're managing. But from what I'm seeing. And from what I trusted people, I speak to, um, I think it is pretty much there, but I do take your point that there'll be some prisons where it's a lot more stable and it's a lot easier to get these kind of things done day to day. The sort of the muscle memory of it. But maybe if I could, um, defer to James here to, to fill in the gaps.
11:49
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
I think two things can be true. I think prison officers would like us to invest more in their skills and training. And in fact, we are doing that through a programme called enable. But that's not the subject of today's conversation. Um, so there is frustration out there about the availability of um of general training in leadership and prison skills, but on fire and note how much the committee sort of pressed Cohen and I on this last time out. We've gone back, we've, we've spoken to prisons to double check what we've the evidence that we gave to you in good faith and what.
Having done a sort of prison by prison check nationally, 84% of people in the last year have done the training. And we're pleased with that. What that means is, at 84%, the roles that are necessary to have fire trained individuals in are staffed by people who've got fire training in. That's based on day and night shift. So, um, this is a mandated, it's a must do training course. Um, so I note the sort of challenge from the, from the committee, but in good faith, we've gone back, we've looked at the data.
This is an area where our internal audit teams go out and work with prisoners to make sure prisons. Sorry that to make sure what we're asking them to do is being done and what we're coming back with is, is a good bill of health. To the minister's point, we would like to, you know, we want to go and understand is 84 what would it take to get from 84% compliance to 90%. But in a very busy operational environment where people are on leave, there might have been injured in the course of their duties.
Sometimes planned training for individuals can't happen, and then refresher training might come a bit further down the line.
Having done a sort of prison by prison check nationally, 84% of people in the last year have done the training. And we're pleased with that. What that means is, at 84%, the roles that are necessary to have fire trained individuals in are staffed by people who've got fire training in. That's based on day and night shift. So, um, this is a mandated, it's a must do training course. Um, so I note the sort of challenge from the, from the committee, but in good faith, we've gone back, we've looked at the data.
This is an area where our internal audit teams go out and work with prisoners to make sure prisons. Sorry that to make sure what we're asking them to do is being done and what we're coming back with is, is a good bill of health. To the minister's point, we would like to, you know, we want to go and understand is 84 what would it take to get from 84% compliance to 90%. But in a very busy operational environment where people are on leave, there might have been injured in the course of their duties.
Sometimes planned training for individuals can't happen, and then refresher training might come a bit further down the line.
11:51
Speaker 18
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Speaker 18
And could I just put one before we just ask you on fire drills?If we were to ask the prison officers, do they feel safe in the training that they've had?And do they all, you know, in good faith, think that they know how to evacuate and how to deal with the fire?In addition to having watched the video, for example, I'm not dismissive of the training video. By the way. Um, do you think they would answer with the same, uh, positivity?
11:52
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Think sometimes the proof of the pudding is in eating. We have 3000 fires each year, but very, very few injuries and has. Lord Timpson has said six minutes to evacuate 100 prisoners suggests to me that prison officers do know what they're doing, actually. But it's not true. But your point around pressures is absolutely right, which is why we're looking at new virtual reality platforms so that prisoners can access prison officers rather can access training more on the go without taking much time off the landing.
So I completely agree with your point that we need to adapt to pressures, but we should also look at what the evidence tells us about how staff respond to fires.
So I completely agree with your point that we need to adapt to pressures, but we should also look at what the evidence tells us about how staff respond to fires.
11:53
11:53
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
So the data that I've got is a mandated annual annually and the compliance is at 95%. And operationally, we have some challenges. Sometimes due to the nature of the risk we've got and the nature, for example, in, in segs, in high secure prisons and so on, it's not always the most straightforward thing to do.
11:53
11:54
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
It's more the nature of the drill. So for some prisons we can do a full prison drill. So, you know, moving people around the prisons, taking people out of wings in other prisons, there, it may not be stable enough, safe enough in order to do that, in which case the the drill is a sort of desk, a desktop live simulation of we've got a fire. What's the action being taken?Management team checking that the decision making is clear and that they're sort of command structure is resilient to the fire.
11:54
11:54
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
So in those. Yes, in those in some for some prisons that the circumstances are such that it would be very, very difficult and challenging for everyone's safety, staff included, to sort of run a full evacuation and a full plan like that. So it is different in different parts of the estate. So within the policy, we're seeing 95% of prisons compliant with that one year requirement.
11:55
11:55
11:55
11:55
11:55
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
It will be difficult to quantify that. But every every prisoner receives training on induction, on what to do in the event of a fire. Um they also we also set out very clearly to them what the role of a prisoner is versus what the role of the prison officer is. As part of that induction and training, we will set out to them what the consequences of setting a fire may be. Um, and we talked a little bit about that and we may talk about it a little bit later, but every prisoner will have information readily available as part of their induction and perhaps signposted around the prison on what to do in the event of a fire.
11:56
11:56
11:56
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
Um, the. 5% obviously on overcrowding. We got to the point pretty quickly when we came into government that we were 99.98% full. And when you're that full, it's difficult to to do anything apart from get prisoners three meals a day, a clean pair of pants and a shower, rehabilitation and all the sort of normal functioning, um. Methods that we have in a prison don't work. But the data, the data that I've seen suggests that. That the.
There is a link between crowding. Sorry, no data, no data exists to say there's a link between crowding and increased fire risk. If anything, it's the opposite. Because if someone is in a cell on their own, they may well be slightly more likely to set a fire. And. And obviously with our fire detectors, whether you have one person in a cell or two, we've still got one fire detection system. So one one cell, one alarm.
Um, today we're running at 96.6% full, which is still very full. But that means that with when we get the right staffing levels, staffing stability, um, that means that it's, it's easier to manage that risk because we want officers to know their prisoners and to be able to manage a, a more stable regime to get all the training done, to get the induction done, and to be able to manage. You know, we talk about those those thousand fire starter prisoners, you need to be able to manage those well.
And so far as the, you know, how do you when you're 99.9% full, how do you sort of move the estate around to get the fire safety?Um, done?I mean, the. It is a case, you know, the game with all the little squares on, you're sort of doing a bit of that. But at the moment we have how many cells getting 3000 being done at the moment.
There is a link between crowding. Sorry, no data, no data exists to say there's a link between crowding and increased fire risk. If anything, it's the opposite. Because if someone is in a cell on their own, they may well be slightly more likely to set a fire. And. And obviously with our fire detectors, whether you have one person in a cell or two, we've still got one fire detection system. So one one cell, one alarm.
Um, today we're running at 96.6% full, which is still very full. But that means that with when we get the right staffing levels, staffing stability, um, that means that it's, it's easier to manage that risk because we want officers to know their prisoners and to be able to manage a, a more stable regime to get all the training done, to get the induction done, and to be able to manage. You know, we talk about those those thousand fire starter prisoners, you need to be able to manage those well.
And so far as the, you know, how do you when you're 99.9% full, how do you sort of move the estate around to get the fire safety?Um, done?I mean, the. It is a case, you know, the game with all the little squares on, you're sort of doing a bit of that. But at the moment we have how many cells getting 3000 being done at the moment.
11:58
11:58
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
1800, 1800 cells are out at the moment. And clearly all the way through the prison capacity crisis. There has been pressure on getting those back quickly. But obviously, you know, I don't know whether whether it's been covered in other committees with ISG going into administration and so on. There's been an awful lot of pressure to manage that capacity. But the fact is, we need to have a cell. Space available for everybody. The police wants us to put up for the night.
11:59
Speaker 19
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Speaker 19
Minister, could I just refer to a letter you wrote on the 17th of April of this year to the chair of the Justice Select Committee, and you said the only limit on delivery is the need to avoid breaching critical capacity and the collapse of the proper functioning of the prison and wider criminal justice system. And the attendant intolerable risks to public safety. So can we interpret that as saying that it is the risk?In trying to refurbish or improve, does it mean. If that could be addressed in the capacity sense, would resources be available?Because you're saying in your note, the only limit on delivery, um, is the.
City. Um does that mean that you feel resources are available?If you could deal with the capacity.
City. Um does that mean that you feel resources are available?If you could deal with the capacity.
12:00
12:00
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
Yeah. So as you know, we're currently operating, uh, several thousands of cells that are not fully compliant with fire regulation. That's why we're here, right?Part of the reason we're here. We have. Um, what the letter is pointing to is that we don't have, in terms of public protection risk, what we don't have the ability to do is to decant all the prisoners that we, we would need to, to do the work to make those compliant. And so going back to this 2027 commitment and moving away from that commitment, there was a judgement that needed to be made about whether in a world where we were not able to get all of those cells compliant, would we be, because of time constraints, would we be in a position to further increase headroom in prisons for those places weren't used?And no, we can't because of public protection risks.
Um, at the moment it's a sort of it's an interesting question. There will be at some point there'll be supply chain constraints. At the minute I've got all the money I need for fire safety work. So it's not a financial constraint. If I had a magic wand and were able to sort of move prisoners to prisons that don't exist in order to to say, right, I've now got 9000 cells available to, uh, to improve fire safety. I'd hit a supply chain constraint before I, um, as in the first order and eventually, you know, I can't say I haven't been able to say to the Treasury in a world where I had all of these places available to do all the work.
I would like, if you've got the financial firepower to support me, I don't I can guess the answer, but I don't know because I've not had the luxury of answering the question. So as of today, I've got the money, I've got a supply chain. And we're increasingly we've got we've got the space available in the estate to deliver the plan that we've got. Um, but that, that plan is not going to be able to take every cell out of use whilst we do the work.
Um, at the moment it's a sort of it's an interesting question. There will be at some point there'll be supply chain constraints. At the minute I've got all the money I need for fire safety work. So it's not a financial constraint. If I had a magic wand and were able to sort of move prisoners to prisons that don't exist in order to to say, right, I've now got 9000 cells available to, uh, to improve fire safety. I'd hit a supply chain constraint before I, um, as in the first order and eventually, you know, I can't say I haven't been able to say to the Treasury in a world where I had all of these places available to do all the work.
I would like, if you've got the financial firepower to support me, I don't I can guess the answer, but I don't know because I've not had the luxury of answering the question. So as of today, I've got the money, I've got a supply chain. And we're increasingly we've got we've got the space available in the estate to deliver the plan that we've got. Um, but that, that plan is not going to be able to take every cell out of use whilst we do the work.
12:02
12:02
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
Well, the, the um we're building 14,000 new prison cells. Um, by 2030. So that's on track and on plan because the fact is there are going to be more people in prison and more people on probation than ever before. Um, the courts and tribunals bill. Um, I think it sees the number of prisoners increasing. It peaks at about 900 by 2033, and then it starts declining. Um, but within all that, the goal has got to be about reducing re-offending because 80, 80% of offending is re-offending.
And if we don't sort that out, we're going to keep needing to build more and more prisons. And the, the Texas justice model was one that really inspired what we've done in the sentencing bill. And they're they've closed 16 they've closed 16 prisons, and crime has come down by 30%. So it shows it can be done. But you've got to focus on reducing reoffending. And that's how you get the proper capacity.
And if we don't sort that out, we're going to keep needing to build more and more prisons. And the, the Texas justice model was one that really inspired what we've done in the sentencing bill. And they're they've closed 16 they've closed 16 prisons, and crime has come down by 30%. So it shows it can be done. But you've got to focus on reducing reoffending. And that's how you get the proper capacity.
12:04
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
So the the annual statement that we give to Parliament that looks at the um we produce an annual capacity statement for Parliament that shows the forecasts on demand and supply. Um. Testing my memory here that was published earlier this year, I think January, February um time. And that that is impacted for the Sentencing Act. Uh, the courts and Tribunals bill currently, uh, as you say, as you know, uh. Going through the parliamentary process, um, and the impact assessment for that has been published, setting out the 900 places that James spoke about.
So all of that's on record. And, and the, you know, in the 2030s, it will be a plus 90,000 prison population will be having more people in prison than ever before.
So all of that's on record. And, and the, you know, in the 2030s, it will be a plus 90,000 prison population will be having more people in prison than ever before.
12:04
12:04
12:05
Speaker 20
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Speaker 20
Thank you very much. I'd like to focus, if I may, on prevention. And there's a technical aspect to that. I'd like to start by commending the work that has been done on safer vapes. James McEwan gave us some remarkable figures last week suggesting that vape fires, which had been running at more than 2000 in the last two years, were only 36 in the first five months of 2026. So on that, I'd like to ask two questions before I move on.
First, is there an argument for going further still and banning vapes in prison?And secondly, there has been a pro-rata increase, perhaps not very surprisingly, in electrical fires and fires from other ignition sources. Is there any solution in place that could be as effective as a solution you have reached with vapes?
First, is there an argument for going further still and banning vapes in prison?And secondly, there has been a pro-rata increase, perhaps not very surprisingly, in electrical fires and fires from other ignition sources. Is there any solution in place that could be as effective as a solution you have reached with vapes?
12:05
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
I think, um, the, the fall in vape vape starting is really good news. And the, since it's been introduced in May have already had these stats May 25th to May 26th. The major safer vape pen has led to a 46% overall reduction in fires. So that's really good news. Personally, I don't think vaping should be banned in prisons, but we need to keep looking at it. I think what we what we need to do is to keep promoting healthy lifestyles in prisons.
I've seen some really interesting work around when I was in Belmarsh just comes to mind the great work they're doing on health, eating of food and health and fitness, and people getting off drugs and off alcohol and so on. Um, but, you know, it is, it is a very popular product from the canteen list that prisoners can buy. Um, but for me, it's about um, keeping. Going on looking for new ideas, but on the, on the electrical side of things, we, the, we are testing in two prisons.
I don't know which ones they are. Um, we're working with a German company, um to, to, to work out how, when, when prisons are basically trying to start an electrical fire as a way of stopping that. So I'm happy if it's okay, going to give us a bit more details on.
I've seen some really interesting work around when I was in Belmarsh just comes to mind the great work they're doing on health, eating of food and health and fitness, and people getting off drugs and off alcohol and so on. Um, but, you know, it is, it is a very popular product from the canteen list that prisoners can buy. Um, but for me, it's about um, keeping. Going on looking for new ideas, but on the, on the electrical side of things, we, the, we are testing in two prisons.
I don't know which ones they are. Um, we're working with a German company, um to, to, to work out how, when, when prisons are basically trying to start an electrical fire as a way of stopping that. So I'm happy if it's okay, going to give us a bit more details on.
12:07
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
That and we're immensely proud. Thank you Minister. We're immensely proud of the achievements on vapes. Vapes over the last few years have become a ubiquitous problem for us, that every prisoner has access to. So we're really pleased that those numbers are coming down, as you rightly pointed out, prisoners are pivoting to other areas. To start fires, we're piloting, uh, something called an arc faults detector, which, as the minister says, has been borrowed from overseas. What that does is detect subtle signatures in electrical current to tell whether or not an electrical appliance is being tampered with and cut the power to the cell.
It's hugely sophisticated stuff, but some of the pilots are showing some really encouraging, um. Some encouraging signs from that from that pilot. It's true to say that we're always we will always need to adapt though. So if it's not vapes, it will be electrical current or it will be a another thing. So we're really keen to keep looking at new ways to fight this.
It's hugely sophisticated stuff, but some of the pilots are showing some really encouraging, um. Some encouraging signs from that from that pilot. It's true to say that we're always we will always need to adapt though. So if it's not vapes, it will be electrical current or it will be a another thing. So we're really keen to keep looking at new ways to fight this.
12:08
Speaker 20
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Speaker 20
I wonder if there is also a disciplinary aspect to fire prevention. Um, we have been told that at I think Brinsford and Lindholme, there has been a practice of destroying a prisoner's belongings in the cell. Every time there is a fire. And it is said that this appears to have had a deterrent effect in the number of fires has fallen appreciably. We've also been told that at Risley there has been a practice of prosecuting all prisoners who started fires and that, again, this has been effective in reducing the number of fires.
Now I would imagine that one has to be very careful with the statistics in this area, particularly if these trials were conducted against a background of a falling number of fires started by vapes. But I wondered whether you thought there was any value in these disciplinary measures that were taken at the three prisons I've mentioned, and if so, whether it might be worth rolling them out more broadly.
Now I would imagine that one has to be very careful with the statistics in this area, particularly if these trials were conducted against a background of a falling number of fires started by vapes. But I wondered whether you thought there was any value in these disciplinary measures that were taken at the three prisons I've mentioned, and if so, whether it might be worth rolling them out more broadly.
12:08
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
The I haven't heard about those examples, so I'll happily go away and look at those that hasn't come across my desk before. I think for me, I start at the at the point, which is. I want to get from. For me, well run prisons are where staff know their prisoners and a number of our prisoners are very complex, um, often very ill individuals. And the better you know them the better you can work out what is the right way with a carrot and stick approach.
How can we support them so they can get on with their sentence and get a parole board hearing?We've got the adjudication system, um, in prisons, which is well established. We've got um, a number of ways we're improving that with AI and so on, because that's sort of the standard process. Um, some cases I guess we'll go to the police, I don't know the exact numbers on that go to the police or the independent adjudicator. And I suspect some need psychological help.
So I guess it's a balance of yes, there is a process, but you also need to know that individual because that process might not be the right the right process to help that person not do it again, especially with our thousand most prolific firestarters, you know, the these people are often not the ones who respond to the conventional punishments we have in prison.
How can we support them so they can get on with their sentence and get a parole board hearing?We've got the adjudication system, um, in prisons, which is well established. We've got um, a number of ways we're improving that with AI and so on, because that's sort of the standard process. Um, some cases I guess we'll go to the police, I don't know the exact numbers on that go to the police or the independent adjudicator. And I suspect some need psychological help.
So I guess it's a balance of yes, there is a process, but you also need to know that individual because that process might not be the right the right process to help that person not do it again, especially with our thousand most prolific firestarters, you know, the these people are often not the ones who respond to the conventional punishments we have in prison.
12:09
Speaker 20
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Speaker 20
Well, just lastly, if I may, I mean, you have referred to the difficulties of making international comparisons, which I entirely understand, but a couple of thousand fires a year on the prison estate does sound rather a lot. And I wonder if, um, international comparisons do suggest that numbers are significantly lower in other countries. And do you think other countries have done a better job at at attacking some of the root causes which you've touched on just now, whether that's boredom, frustration, protest, mental health difficulties?
12:10
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
I think so far as what I would like to see us do more of is more time out of cell, less boredom, less more interaction with other individuals, more opportunities for us to see how people are progressing on their sentence. More more time in workshops, getting out and about. Chess club. I think I'm a big fan of chess club in prisons. Um, and working on the wings and getting involved in things on, on the, and that would be the same internationally as well.
We all want to see a more stable, settled regime. But I may defer to colleagues on the officials, on the.
We all want to see a more stable, settled regime. But I may defer to colleagues on the officials, on the.
12:10
12:11
12:11
12:11
12:11
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I don't think we have that. But what we do have are a host of countries who have asked to see our management controls and take those back to their home countries, Ireland and France being an example of learning our management controls and implementing them in their own estate. But you're absolutely right. It's difficult to compare apples to apples in terms.
12:12
12:12
12:12
12:12
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
Thank you. Chairman. Minister. Um, uh, and your colleagues, can I ask you just briefly about private prisons?Um, it's clear that private prisons can be subject to stronger enforcement action regarding FA safety than publicly run prisons. So my first question is, why is this the case?And secondly, as way of an example, why have private prisons been able to implement a f d?Public prisons haven't.
12:13
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
I think. Um, thanks for the question. I think the the reporting framework and the investigation framework are the same across public and private prisons with an inspection every three years. I think that the the only difference is that they're not protected by crown immunity. So the inspection setup is the same. The majority, if not all of the privately run prisons are the more modern prisons in the estate. And that is why that they have got the latest, um, AfD systems in place.
And, you know, I, I'm pretty sure that all the Victorian ones, which makes up 25% of our estate are publicly run establishments. So I think it's because of the age of the estate, um, above anything else. Yeah.
And, you know, I, I'm pretty sure that all the Victorian ones, which makes up 25% of our estate are publicly run establishments. So I think it's because of the age of the estate, um, above anything else. Yeah.
12:15
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
Thank you. Um, are you going to be asked, I think in due course about crown immunity. So I'm not going to ask, ask, ask that question. Ask that question. Um, but doesn't that tell you something about the Victorian prisons too. Um and I know in the present circumstances it's impossible. Not just hard but impossible to do very much about closing them down. Um, but I have one in mind, which I think should have been closed years ago, and maybe that would have had an effect on far making in that particular prison.
Uh, are you still looking to close Victorian prisons where that's possible?
Uh, are you still looking to close Victorian prisons where that's possible?
12:16
12:16
12:16
12:17
12:17
12:17
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Thank you. So, Minister, the the Howard League have said as long as crown bodies benefit from immunity from prosecution, there can be no effective regulation of fire safety. Immunity means lack of accountability, lack of deterrent. Lack of effective outcomes. This is me. This is my view. And I'm putting it to you. In essence, a lack of a core capability to prosecute individuals who wilfully start fires. Crown immunity was moved back, removed from some of our Health and Safety executive um organisations under the NHS back in the 1990s.
Would that not be a good idea now?And I have heard what you've said about your preference for um. Focusing on lack. Reducing re-offending. Um, you don't want to ban vapes. But I think this also has to be seen in the context of enormous staff turnover.
Would that not be a good idea now?And I have heard what you've said about your preference for um. Focusing on lack. Reducing re-offending. Um, you don't want to ban vapes. But I think this also has to be seen in the context of enormous staff turnover.
12:18
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
You know, if I work for, if I'm an officer working for G Force or Sodexo, I'm not a civil servant. So I don't get that protection from, um, crown immunity. But there are no plans in place for this to change, for Parliament to decide. It's not for me to decide. But what I think is important is that the inspection regime and the oversight. Is like for like, whether it's a privately run prison or a publicly run prison, it needs to be exactly the same.
It needs to be monitored and people are held to account when it is not done correctly. Um, I think it's the same fire safety and also the same health and safety at work regulations, which we work to as well. Are no current plans to review that, that difference, but we need to keep doing is making sure that whether it's a private or a public run prison, they run it on fire safety. It's working well. And the example at High Point I think is a is a is a shout out to us all that these things do happen sadly.
And we are carrying a vast risk with 3000 fires a year in our prisons. That's roughly ten a day. Call it nine a day. Um, and we need to make sure that the oversight is. Working. And it is in parallel.
It needs to be monitored and people are held to account when it is not done correctly. Um, I think it's the same fire safety and also the same health and safety at work regulations, which we work to as well. Are no current plans to review that, that difference, but we need to keep doing is making sure that whether it's a private or a public run prison, they run it on fire safety. It's working well. And the example at High Point I think is a is a is a shout out to us all that these things do happen sadly.
And we are carrying a vast risk with 3000 fires a year in our prisons. That's roughly ten a day. Call it nine a day. Um, and we need to make sure that the oversight is. Working. And it is in parallel.
12:19
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
The inspectorate that we listened to before this session, they carry out eight inspections a year. They're tiny, a tiny group of people. Um they're costing just over £1 million a year. Meanwhile, in the last three years, we've spent £364 million on fire safety improvement. I think there's some imbalance here, if I may put that to you. But also, can I encourage you as prisons minister, to actually push against government and those who would say crown immunity is a good idea?Because I think there could be serious progress in terms of all of this.
If Crown immunity could be lifted, it would probably take primary legislation, but that could easily be, um, tucked into a piece of legislation. I know there was a private member's bill, but it only got as far as first reading in the last session. But I think it's a serious issue. If I may put to you, Minister, that's really worth exploring. Would you take that on board, please?
If Crown immunity could be lifted, it would probably take primary legislation, but that could easily be, um, tucked into a piece of legislation. I know there was a private member's bill, but it only got as far as first reading in the last session. But I think it's a serious issue. If I may put to you, Minister, that's really worth exploring. Would you take that on board, please?
12:20
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Um, as I said before, you know, this is sort of well above my pay grade, that kind of conversation, but I will take that away. Um, and, um, but I think one of the other points you mentioned about cost. The cost of this is significant. One of the things that I have been doing is kicking the tires on the cost to see why it is so high. What can we do to reduce it?Bringing my sort of commercial experience into that.
Um, and I'd like to think we've made some good progress on that, but um, I think the overall answer, the question is we just got to make sure that every prison, if you're, if you're a prisoner, if you're, if you're a family member of a prisoner, whether you're in a public or a private prison shouldn't make any difference whether that is safe.
Um, and I'd like to think we've made some good progress on that, but um, I think the overall answer, the question is we just got to make sure that every prison, if you're, if you're a prisoner, if you're, if you're a family member of a prisoner, whether you're in a public or a private prison shouldn't make any difference whether that is safe.
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12:21
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Well, sorry, what James is. James holds responsibility for HMP S. Prison governors hold the responsibility. They're the responsible person within the prison and the chief property officer holds responsibility for the all the fire safety equipment. So we do have a pretty. Well, I think it's a very rigorous structure. That's well, well understood.
12:21
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
I'm just going to reflect. I joined a CEO in October last year and fire safety was the number one issue I've picked up. And it wasn't through a threat of prosecution. It was because it was quite clear where that we are operating outside of regulation. I was aware of all the CP FC. Notices that have been set out for prisons. And we acted because it is the right thing to do. And it's very clear we're in breach of regulations.
And it's very clear as a civil servant, my responsibilities to move us back towards, um, compliance. I can only give you my experience, which is we're doing everything that we can, even in, even in the presence of to your sort of contention, crown immunity. I can't think that I'd do act in a different way if I had a different set of personal risks sort of acting on me. And I feel very accountable. Um, but, you know, it's a big system. And if on the inspectorate.
We spoke last time about the different tiers that we have different separations of responsibilities and oversight. So, at a prison level will have people who the governor responsible, they'll have, um, people who are fire experts at their disposal to make sure that they're running their prison, um, in line with policies. Um, as far as that is possible and reasonable to expect them to, we then have through Cohen's team, uh, a system of highly trained assessors who go out and check the work of each prison and make sure that the risk assessments are, are expert or current and the right controls and mitigations in place.
And then, and then we have the inspectorate who check that all of those systems are working. And we also have, because we're accredited, the first public body that we that we understand to be of our scale, to be accredited to the, um to the right. IBS standard. We also have the B s. SSS99979997, and that is refreshed annually. And that's another independent view of our management approach and controls. So yes I can I can I can see that like eight inspections a year feels sort of a bit.
Skinny from your perspective, but there are sort of there monitoring. The system is working as it is intended. So it's sort of a meta sort of view of what's going on. Um, if, if the CPSC wasn't able to sort of see the evidence that they'd just provided, if it's there, if you know, it's, is for them to make the case, you know, I'd be very supportive if they felt that they did not have the resources, um, available. To them to meet the inspection regime they want to run.
Then I'm, I'm, I'm very welcoming of more assurance. I feel much more assured as the chief executive where I've got someone like CPSC who's able to come in and say from an independent perspective, this is what all the sum total of all the activity are we in a good place or a place that we need to change?So I welcome the scrutiny. So you'd have no argument from me if if CP FC wants to talk to their sponsor department and say we need more resources, good for them.
And it's very clear as a civil servant, my responsibilities to move us back towards, um, compliance. I can only give you my experience, which is we're doing everything that we can, even in, even in the presence of to your sort of contention, crown immunity. I can't think that I'd do act in a different way if I had a different set of personal risks sort of acting on me. And I feel very accountable. Um, but, you know, it's a big system. And if on the inspectorate.
We spoke last time about the different tiers that we have different separations of responsibilities and oversight. So, at a prison level will have people who the governor responsible, they'll have, um, people who are fire experts at their disposal to make sure that they're running their prison, um, in line with policies. Um, as far as that is possible and reasonable to expect them to, we then have through Cohen's team, uh, a system of highly trained assessors who go out and check the work of each prison and make sure that the risk assessments are, are expert or current and the right controls and mitigations in place.
And then, and then we have the inspectorate who check that all of those systems are working. And we also have, because we're accredited, the first public body that we that we understand to be of our scale, to be accredited to the, um to the right. IBS standard. We also have the B s. SSS99979997, and that is refreshed annually. And that's another independent view of our management approach and controls. So yes I can I can I can see that like eight inspections a year feels sort of a bit.
Skinny from your perspective, but there are sort of there monitoring. The system is working as it is intended. So it's sort of a meta sort of view of what's going on. Um, if, if the CPSC wasn't able to sort of see the evidence that they'd just provided, if it's there, if you know, it's, is for them to make the case, you know, I'd be very supportive if they felt that they did not have the resources, um, available. To them to meet the inspection regime they want to run.
Then I'm, I'm, I'm very welcoming of more assurance. I feel much more assured as the chief executive where I've got someone like CPSC who's able to come in and say from an independent perspective, this is what all the sum total of all the activity are we in a good place or a place that we need to change?So I welcome the scrutiny. So you'd have no argument from me if if CP FC wants to talk to their sponsor department and say we need more resources, good for them.
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12:25
Speaker 21
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Speaker 21
Thank you. In relation to the previous evidence we heard from the inspectorate that there was enforcement cases in relation to training where a step away letter had been issued in 2024 and they diplomatically said it's still an open case, is it not?Correct, though, that crown immunity does no longer apply to corporate manslaughter, that a decision was made 15 years ago to actually apply the 2007 act into the Ministry of Justice, and actually the Home Office. So is it not also the case that maybe there's a stick here to be telling people who are in that situation when they have not complied two years later, that that kind of prosecution exists?If you could confirm that that's my understanding of the law that that corporate manslaughter prosecutions do apply now to MoJ.
And if you've got a step away letter and you're the responsible person, if you were to get prosecuted, that seems like quite compelling evidence or could be. So is that a stick that you could also be communicating to people appropriately if they're not complying with step away letters?
And if you've got a step away letter and you're the responsible person, if you were to get prosecuted, that seems like quite compelling evidence or could be. So is that a stick that you could also be communicating to people appropriately if they're not complying with step away letters?
12:26
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
Absolutely. So, so that applies to all of us in all cases. So where there is negligence and evidenced negligence that has led to the harm or death of an individual, no civil servant is, is, is immune from that crown. Immunity has never covered us from from that. Um, however, CP fc can go above step away should they wish to they can issue a prohibition notice. So should they consider that our movement or perceived non-movement is has reached an intolerable level.
They can issue the government a prohibition. Notice the fact that they haven't says to me that they have acknowledged movement in the right direction. But you're absolutely right. There are there are instances under common law and under the Health and Safety at Work Act, where individuals can be.
They can issue the government a prohibition. Notice the fact that they haven't says to me that they have acknowledged movement in the right direction. But you're absolutely right. There are there are instances under common law and under the Health and Safety at Work Act, where individuals can be.
12:27
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Pursued. And just to come, just the premise of your question. Yeah. Thank you. We sort of starts from a stick point of view. I mean, you've taken evidence from the PGA, you've um, and you. Would have heard from other stakeholders. This is taken like our governors, our officers, me and my team, Cohen and his team. We are absolutely focused on this risk we are doing. Everything we can.
It is one of the risks that I wake up thinking about every day, and I go to sleep thinking about it. So it is not in the absence I don't. I don't need the pressure of prosecution to behave in a different way. As Cohen said, quite on my understanding of the law is to yours.
It is one of the risks that I wake up thinking about every day, and I go to sleep thinking about it. So it is not in the absence I don't. I don't need the pressure of prosecution to behave in a different way. As Cohen said, quite on my understanding of the law is to yours.
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12:28
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Exactly, and I do, and that is a massive responsibility I hold and that we as an employer hold. Um, and, and it is, you know, a huge responsibility of taking this job, which is why from day one, I'm really working very closely with the team to make sure that everything we can be doing, we are doing. It's why we wrote to Parliament and others to talk about moving, to prioritise where we can. The early delivery of AfD, because we believe that is an area where if we deliver earlier, we can reduce the risks of injury and loss of life.
And that's why we've sort of changed the way the programme is orientated. So where we can accelerate AfD, we will accelerate AfD. So we're taking this extraordinarily serious. I know I want the debate on incentives to be sort of played out in a, in a in a world where we're doing our account is we're doing everything we can.
And that's why we've sort of changed the way the programme is orientated. So where we can accelerate AfD, we will accelerate AfD. So we're taking this extraordinarily serious. I know I want the debate on incentives to be sort of played out in a, in a in a world where we're doing our account is we're doing everything we can.
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Um, I think the. I bring some of this with my previous experience of running a business where, where health and safety was paramount with all the different, lots of different parts of the organisation. And, you know, I think from, from what I've seen here, um, is we are transparent, we publish annually, um, our data um deaths are. Published through the coroner's process. Um and I think we've been very open, for example, on the high point fire, um with the. The media explaining exactly what's been going on.
And obviously when the investigation is done, we will let everybody know, um, what the investigation says. So I'd like to think that culturally we are a pretty open organisation.
And obviously when the investigation is done, we will let everybody know, um, what the investigation says. So I'd like to think that culturally we are a pretty open organisation.
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Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
Step away notices. We don't own those. So that would be a matter for um the Crown premises. Fire Safety Inspectorate. Um they could choose to publish those should they wish, although they do publish in the annual statement the number of step away notices that they have issued on the fire safety improvement list. That is our internal risk dynamic risk management assessment. Um whilst there is no harm in publishing that document, it is a dynamic risk assessment.
Therefore it changes on the minute. So the the moment it is published it can become out of date. The version that we have shared with the committee is from June and it could look very different today. So we would need to look at the the value to the public in publishing something like that in the knowledge that it could change so regularly.
Therefore it changes on the minute. So the the moment it is published it can become out of date. The version that we have shared with the committee is from June and it could look very different today. So we would need to look at the the value to the public in publishing something like that in the knowledge that it could change so regularly.
12:33
Speaker 18
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Speaker 18
Just so we can put it on the record. Um, I, I'm sure you're aware that you having sent a copy of it to us, I have it here with its startling number of reds appearing on the first page as a result of you sending it to us, it will be published as part of our report. Okay. We will move on because time is tight, Lord Tope. Yes?
12:34
12:34
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
The. From a prison perspective, is a large organisation, and despite all the complexity, the end of the day, the risks rest with the man on my right here as a responsible officer. In the organisation. And then your your your question on prison governors is, as the responsible person in that establishment, um, they do have we often debate this question about how much autonomy control do they have or don't or don't they have?When it comes to fire safety, they are the they are the responsible person for that organisation.
And, and I, I wouldn't mind just deferring this in a minute to talk us through what happens if a prison governor contacts you and with a with a question or a concern. But every member of staff at HMP has a responsibility. Every prisoner has a responsibility for the safety of of everybody in that establishment. And obviously there are lots of people who work there who aren't employed by HMP. They could be NHS staff, third sector organisations, maintenance people and so on.
So it is a big community, but at the end of the day the risk sits with James here. Um, maybe you could just explain how that works.
And, and I, I wouldn't mind just deferring this in a minute to talk us through what happens if a prison governor contacts you and with a with a question or a concern. But every member of staff at HMP has a responsibility. Every prisoner has a responsibility for the safety of of everybody in that establishment. And obviously there are lots of people who work there who aren't employed by HMP. They could be NHS staff, third sector organisations, maintenance people and so on.
So it is a big community, but at the end of the day the risk sits with James here. Um, maybe you could just explain how that works.
12:35
12:35
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
So so broadly, governors are responsible for management control. So staffing, making sure that their people are trained, making sure that they have access to the right equipment, um, through the property line. And James discharges some of those duties through myself, the built environment sits elsewhere. So we try, we separate those two issues because governors do not have direct levers over things like capital investment and major investment.
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12:36
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
Thank you very much. Um, in view of the time, I'm just going to cut straight to the chase, if I may. Um and I'd like to address this question, the first question to the, to the minister, um Minister, are you aware that cp Fsai are of the view that the Prison Service instruction as it relates to fire safety policy, does not comply with the fire safety order, and it needs updating urgently.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Um, this issue I, I met with the chief, the chief inspector now retired CP FC. This issue didn't come up. We are we the our policies were last amended in 2022. Um giving evidence today, the CPSC have sort of expressed concerns about whether the policies are reflective of the order. Then we'll absolutely go away and look at that. Um but they haven't raised it with me directly.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
What I'm in light of the knowledge, I will go and look at the issues and make sure there is consensus about whether the fact of non-compliance. And then look what we're doing about it. We have a really constructive relationship um with CP FC. So I'd be surprised if this was an issue that the CP FC had focused on, that we had not been responsive to, or that there wasn't work in train to, to correct. If corrective action is possible. So let me take it away.
Um, and look at what's going on.
Um, and look at what's going on.
12:41
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
One other element of this that I'd like to put on the record, if I may, chair, um, as well as the kind of general lack of compliance and failure to protect prisoners properly. And that is the issue of tenability. Um, and in this case, there's an explicit contradiction between um, what's contained in the government's current safe system of work annex to the PSI, which provides for a cell door to remain closed for up to 20 minutes in certain circumstances. Um, whereas recent research shows that um the.
Tenable atmosphere in a cell, um, for that to be retained. Um, the cell door has to be opened within ten minutes and it has to stay open for 3.5 minutes. So in that instance, the detail of the PSI, uh, advice contradicts what is known about the requirements for maintaining the tenability of the atmosphere in cells when there's a fire. And presumably you didn't know about that either.
Tenable atmosphere in a cell, um, for that to be retained. Um, the cell door has to be opened within ten minutes and it has to stay open for 3.5 minutes. So in that instance, the detail of the PSI, uh, advice contradicts what is known about the requirements for maintaining the tenability of the atmosphere in cells when there's a fire. And presumably you didn't know about that either.
12:42
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
So we undertake, we undertake tenability assessments, most recently in 2024, um, the length of there are numerous um issues. Associated with that, most notably the level of moisture that we can put into a cell that is single handedly the most important element, not the length of time that the door is open or closed. Volumetric control is the second most important. How many ignition sources are available in that cell?We contract with a company called BRC who undertake those tenability assessments independently on our behalf.
We update policies as we need to. On the back of those, and most recently, in 2024, just coming back briefly, if I may, to say. Compliance, I haven't yet seen CPF, CPF, CIS evidence to the committee. I'll go away and review it. There are expectation documents that set out formally the relationship and how CP FC engage and escalate into HMP. That happens annually. We are formally consulted on it. It would be surprising if a matter as serious as compliance has not been escalated or raised through the channels identified in the expectation document last published by CP FC in June.
We update policies as we need to. On the back of those, and most recently, in 2024, just coming back briefly, if I may, to say. Compliance, I haven't yet seen CPF, CPF, CIS evidence to the committee. I'll go away and review it. There are expectation documents that set out formally the relationship and how CP FC engage and escalate into HMP. That happens annually. We are formally consulted on it. It would be surprising if a matter as serious as compliance has not been escalated or raised through the channels identified in the expectation document last published by CP FC in June.
12:43
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
I mean, what I actually said in relation to that, it was a quote from um CP fc. Uh, so that and just finally, chair, could I ask Mr. McEwan if you do take this up with the inspectorate and you make some progress in understanding what's going on and your response to that, could you write to the committee and let us know?Thank you.
12:43
Speaker 18
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Speaker 18
Thank you. Look, um, time really has run out, but I do want to ask just one question. I hope, uh, there's opportunity to do it. Um, can we just be clear that, uh, you've currently got a £1.4 billion backlog for, uh, maintenance?And as far as we know from the 2025 figures that you did, you need about £1.4 billion for work to improve fire safety in prisons and bring them all up to standard. Can we be clear about what money is currently available and allocated to you?Ring fence for use on fire safety work over what period of time?Straightforward factual figures.
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Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
By 2030. So um we have the resources that we need to undertake the work that we can right now the. Matter of how we reach 1.4 is a matter of negotiation between the Department and the Treasury as part of the next spending review. But we were successful as part of this current spending review period in securing all of the fire safety money we need.
12:45
Speaker 18
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Speaker 18
Okay. So so, uh, I mean, clearly there's a big worry there as to whether the resources will be made available for you to do it, but with the money that you have got, you are going to focus that and you've got we've already discussed the list, the priority list and so on. When are various things going to be done by, for example, when will all prisons have a PhD?What is the target date for all prisons to have a PhD?
12:45
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
So I'll also invite James in on this because we did touch on it on our last. We don't see value in putting a hard stop at the. At which we will reach an AfD compliance point. It's true that we're prioritising compliance and the first 10,000 of the 19,000 currently without AfD will be delivered by the end of 2027 next year. But our motivation, our duty, is to move as quickly as we can.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Um, our ability as set out in the letter, as we referred to earlier, our ability to work on the estate is in large part dictated to by um population pressures at the moment we're in that that's going our way, we're able to um, be, uh. If you roll the clock back 18 months so things can change constantly. Um, we know what the plan, we, we know what we're going to do with the £275 million this year. And all of that will be contingent on, on the broader context and wider events.
That's the, um that is the nature of the uncertainty that we're sort of and the risks that we run.
That's the, um that is the nature of the uncertainty that we're sort of and the risks that we run.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
It'd be very clear. It's not um. It would be a bit hollow for me to say, as someone at the end of their inspectorate regime, what it should look like. My point is, if the Inspectorate feel like they should have more capacity to come out and visit more prisons, then I am not hiding from that. Part of my assurance framework is understanding what in the in the lingo, the third line of defense independent, uh, experts are telling me about the state of my systems, so I welcome that.
It's also not for me to interfere, interfere with the, um, you know, the allocations between Mhclg and CPF s I. I hope that they go the way of a of a bonfire.
It's also not for me to interfere, interfere with the, um, you know, the allocations between Mhclg and CPF s I. I hope that they go the way of a of a bonfire.
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Um, I would like, um, if you were interested in reviewing the training documentation and the videos that, um, staff look at and people like staff, like Frank see on a regular basis. And also I don't know on the timing of things, but it'd be good to give you an update on High Point, the fire that was there, um, to give you if you could let us know when you need an update by, we can let you know whatever we know by then, because that was a serious incident in a large amount of our capacity has been taken out for some time.