Numeracy for Life Committee

Thursday 2nd July 2026

(began 2 months, 3 weeks ago)

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10:54
10:55
None Portrait Speaker 2
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Well, firstly, chair, thank you so much for having us today and inviting the Richmond project team. And thank you to the committee for your focus on this issue. Obviously, we're passionate about it, but a committee with your weight and standing focusing on the issue publishing findings, I think will do wonders for the debate and raising awareness. So I appreciate the effort and time that you've shown. Um, well, my wife and I started the Richmond Project last year, a charity whose mission is to improve social mobility through education and specifically via numeracy.

And we did that because we believe if people have more skill and confidence with numbers, then that will open doors for them at school, at home or at work, and in their general lives. And, and in doing that, ultimately hopefully be able to transform people's lives. The first piece of work we did last year was a very deep research project into the country's attitudes and attainment with numeracy, I think the largest study of its kind, which we did with Kings University and Public First, and it showed actually, you know, quite, quite in hardened fashion, the vast majority, 90% of the country think that this is really important and actually would like to improve as well.

But it also highlighted that there is a challenge. 40% of the country doesn't have strong numeracy. So there is a need for attention and focus on this issue. And the evidence and the research is clear that this can make a difference. People with poor numeracy end up earning less, much less likely to be in employment. And actually, it turns out that if you look at very young children, perhaps the best indicator of their future socioeconomic status is their attainment in numeracy.

So for all these reasons, this is something that I think is worth focusing on. You know, our plan at the Richmond Project and Lizzie and Bodil, you'll hear from later. A brilliant team is, is not just to conduct research to help us understand what's happening, but then to partner with support or indeed initiate projects and ideas that we think can make a meaningful difference. And hopefully over time, scale to have national impact. And we welcome the opportunity to talk about our work to date and what we plan to do in the future.
10:57
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10:58
None Portrait Speaker 4
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As you mentioned?I think the impacts of low numeracy are felt right across the spectrum, and that's to do with the individual who can't access the future that they want because they're prevented from accessing opportunities right the way through to sort of stagnating growth for the economy and for society. I also think it's really important to say up front how emotional this topic is for people in the UK that has come through loud and clear in our research. And it's also important, I think, respondents in our research were only more anxious about public speaking than they were about maths, which when we know possibly not for this group but public speaking for most people, is an extremely frightening, debilitating fear.

Really, that speaks a lot to how people perceive numbers. And I think that lack of confidence actually impacts how people perform. They feel overwhelmed. They feel like they don't want to seek help. And there's a sort of normalisation of avoiding maths. So for individuals coming to them first, outside of the emotional aspect, there is really concrete value to strong numeracy. I know you had Sarah from Get Further here in one of your previous sessions. Get further, have found that there's an earnings uplift of over £70,000 when someone achieves a pass at maths GCSE versus when they don't.

That number is even higher than the equivalent number for achieving a pass in English, and so it's clearly vital that we help more people access that life changing qualification. And then beyond that, we've also done some research into people's financial literacy, our research very clearly obviously illuminates that link between core numeracy, maths in the classroom and financial literacy in adulthood. And that's really about people being in control of their finances, which in turn is about them being in control of their lives. So there are very, very profound consequences for individuals throughout our society in terms of numeracy.

And then for the economy. I know you're speaking to national numeracy later today and they're here, and their research has found that the cost to our economy as a whole of our situation, the low numeracy today in the UK, it's over £20 billion a year, which is over 1% of GDP. Also, I would just want to say on the society, point to your question. There is this very troubling and very clear intergenerational pattern of low numeracy where and this is particularly pronounced in mothers.

We could talk about that later, but where parents generally in in the home, their confidence and competence with numbers is observed and then absorbed by their children. And there is actually evidence that if you grow up with a family who are less confident about numbers, you will perform less well in schools. That is a very difficult pattern to break, but a very important one.
11:00
11:00
None Portrait Speaker 2
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Yes, I think you've heard that from many of your other panellists, and we'd agree. And it speaks to, as Lizzie said, part of what we're trying to do at the Richmond Project is change the culture around numbers in our country. Now, let's be clear. It's a very ambitious thing to do. But having had the experience in government and out, it feels to me that actually government can do many things and it can implement many policies. But culture change is something that all of us and all of our different ways have to contribute to, and we'd love to look forward to a world where nobody feels either the need or the.

To say that they're not a numbers person, that maths isn't for them, because our fervent belief is actually that everyone with the right support and encouragement can be more confident and skilful with numbers, and in doing so, live a more fulfilling life. And that's hopefully the work of many years. But something that we can all work towards. And I would say on that actually, encouragingly, when you bring that up with people in the media or positions of responsibility, they're very receptive to the idea that they find themselves or others saying it and recognise that it's not a good thing.

And particularly, as Lizzie said, because children pick up on what their parents or adult carers say and do, and it's not good if children at a very young age are seeing that some people are good at numbers and some people aren't, and numbers are something to have anxiety about. And that's why breaking this intergenerational pattern and that positive language, positive experiences with numbers starting very early, I think is critical.
11:02
None Portrait Speaker 5
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Thank you.
11:02
None Portrait Speaker 1
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Northampton.
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11:03
None Portrait Speaker 4
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I think absolutely right. And that's why so far as a charity, we are deliberately working across both early years, some interventions around school and even into adulthood. Um, just to sort of give some context to the numbers. So we found that in particular, in low income mothers are those who struggle most with both number confidence and number competence. In our research, we literally tested the maths as well as the attitude to the numbers. But Hearteningly coming back to kind of Rishi's overall opening comment on appetite for change.

They are also disproportionately more likely to want to seek help with that skill. And so I do think we're pushing against an open door to some extent. We can talk about adult numeracy programmes specifically, because I think that is one of the toughest nuts to crack. But briefly on our approach to family maths, Boden can go into learning with parents in a second, but we very much see this as part of the culture change piece. I think it is all about meeting parents where they are not giving them, and we hear this a lot.

Anything else that makes them feel like they've let themselves down, their child down, like they have an endless list of tasks that they need to work through in order to stay afloat. As parents, we know that parents feel stretched, they feel busy, and we want to make it feel the opposite of any of those things. Emotional and scary. We want to make it fun, enjoyable, a moment of connection with the children. There's actually really good research that backs this up. So Stanford Dream has found that with all those early number concepts, learning through play is genuinely effective.

The the EEF has also found that parental engagement adds at least five months of progress to a child. So it's not fluffy just because it's fun. It's actually credible in terms of our own work, we started an initiative called Books Count. Um, at the beginning of this year. And as a team, we talked about the solution, the equivalent of reading your child a story at night, which most of us know that we want to do, we want to aspire to do.

And it feels like a lovely activity to do together. Turns out the numeracy equivalent in some ways is in fact to still do that. Um, but to find in those much loved stories, number concepts, counting shapes, pattern recognition and so on, and practice those gently with your child in a low stakes accessible way. So that's an example of the sort of initiative we think can really help families, something that takes their own daily routine and helps layer in numeracy very gently, rather than making people feel like they need to fundamentally change, um, the way that they talk about numbers with their child, it's more about incremental progress, but that says something about learning.
11:06
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11:08
None Portrait Speaker 7
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So absolutely under five, there's still so much that we can do. And it's so important that parents understand that it's not about, um, I heard about a nursery who sent, um, three year olds home with a worksheet of three plus seven, two plus four. That's completely inappropriate. And that's not what we're asking under fives to do at all. And it's things that are so traditional, like snakes and ladders. Brilliant for doing what's called subitizing, which is noticing five dots and knowing that it's five without counting.

But too often now we're shifting away from playing snakes and ladders with our children. Actually, sometimes in a very well-meaning way, to I'm going to give them an app on a screen which says that it's going to develop my child's numeracy. It says that it's going to teach them all these things, but much more traditional activities, like blocks, which are introducing some spatial reasoning skills. And all those kind of activities are fantastic for under-fives. And then when we go through primary school, what we find is that, um, parents see worksheets coming home with maths homework and say, I don't know how to help my child with this.

Or when I do try to help my child says, that's not how we do it anymore. We don't do subtraction with, um, a column subtraction anymore. We do it with a jumping frog on a number line. And, and then the child says, I don't want your help. And they go into school and they say, my mum told me to do it wrong. And now I got in trouble. So there's something here. I think that's a lesson for parents, but also for schools.

If if you want parental engagement, which I think they do, you need to think carefully about how you're approaching homework with with your children. Um, and if they, whether it's a session that they do for parents to say, here is here are the new methods, here is how you can support them. And you know, what, if the child does come in with column subtraction and they got got the answer right. Can you at least celebrate that the homework is done. They got the answer right.

And their parents support it because those are wins. Even if we didn't get the jumping frog. Um, so there's something about that. But what I really love about learning with parents, which is one of the projects that we've supported, is they talk about three categories of ways that parents can support through primary school right up to age 11. And those are talk, play and exploration. So for example, if you are doing kilometers and meters in your maths lesson, you're converting between the two over dinner that day.

Can you have a conversation about how long is our journey to school?Is it more or less than a kilometer?The parent might need to look up quickly. How does that convert from miles?What's the longest journey that we've ever been on?How you know, whether that's a caravan trip up north or whether that's across the Atlantic, you can still have that conversation. That's not something you need to do with a two year old. That's a really valuable conversation you can have over dinner with your ten year old, um, exploration going out into the local area and saying, you know, odds and evens, we can spot those going down the street and it's normalising these, these aspects of numeracy and maths in our everyday lives, which means that they go beyond a maths lesson and beyond something that's put in a box to something that we just see as part of our everyday.
11:11
11:12
11:12
11:13
None Portrait Speaker 3
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Um.
11:13
11:13
11:15
11:15
None Portrait Speaker 2
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Question and and one that we've reflected on um, a lot. And you're right, literacy charities receive obviously enormously more funding than numeracy charities, more literacy volunteers. But the worst thing that we could do is make this an either or or some type of competition. And we're very reluctant to do that. And which is why, actually, as Lizzie spoke about books count, it was a way that you could bring these two worlds together. We're in a year of reading.

Everyone's focused on reading for pleasure, but actually, if we're just a little bit careful or deliberate with the books that we're putting in front of the kids, actually, we can achieve some some great numeracy outcomes as, as well. Um, so what are my reflections?I think one is. Talk about this. The government has levers over curriculum and, and actually we should take a moment to reflect that the progress and the Pisa scores and everything else over the past ten years or so has actually been very positive.

Obviously, there's still work to do, but we have made progress in all these areas in the education reforms and have have helped with that. The The Times table test has been a big success. So, you know, where where is the incremental areas that one might look at there?Because I only government really can do that. There's two I think that that spring to mind. One, the government is doing and deserves recognition and credit for that, which is the financial literacy addition to the curriculum that they have made a priority.

And we're delighted to be working with the Department for education about testing the right curriculum, how to deliver it, to support teachers to deliver it, what should be in it. We should save that for a separate question. So that's one area that obviously government has to do. And the other area is this early years. And and I think we're kind of struck, we asked ourselves the exam question. We know phonics has been a huge success. Many of you have been engaged in your other lives and your school trusts.

And seeing the success that phonics has brought for literacy. So we set ourselves the exam question, well, what's the phonics for maths?And we we think we have an early potential answer, which is, which is a team that we have supported called Rethink Maths, which I'll, I'll get ill to elaborate on. And they are developing a specific structured approach to teaching the early years foundations of numeracy to replicate the strength of phonics curriculum and the method of teaching. Now we've we've supported them.

We will roll that out and evaluate it. And if that ends up being very powerful, you can imagine. Similarly, government would then have to pick up the mantle and roll that out. So I think those are probably the two particular, um. Initiatives in the school curriculum. Uh, and then the other thing that I will say, because I don't want to tread on anyone's toes, but I think we will probably end up talking a little bit about adult education.

And we have some thoughts there because I think actually we've uncovered some policy anomalies that I don't think are deliberate in the way that we fund agile adult education. And actually in a way that may be hindering the uptake of, of potential programmes. Um, so we can get into that at the appropriate moment, but that's probably the, the other specific policy area that I would point to. And then last thing I'd say is government always has a bully pulpit, right?And, you know, you know, when I, when I said I wanted to make numeracy a priority, maths to 18 and people will all have their views on that.

But you know, government can actually just put some things on, on the agenda and it has that ability. Um, and that is obviously up to the, the people in charge and what they choose to prioritise. They can't prioritise everything. There's lots of things that are important. Um, but that's always, always an option. I don't know if I'm missing anything.
11:19
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11:20
None Portrait Speaker 8
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Thank you.
11:20
None Portrait Speaker 1
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Lord Blackwell.
11:20
11:21
11:21
None Portrait Speaker 7
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Um, yeah, I feel very strongly about this. I was the founding head of maths at Michaela, which um, you know, has had year groups where every single child has achieved a four in GCSE maths, including children who came to us with a. Statement of special educational needs, you know, one who couldn't count to ten. So it is possible to make more progress than you can possibly imagine. Between that year seven and year 11. It's also the case that secondary schools shouldn't necessarily have to.

But what we know is that from 5 to 16 children likely have 2000 hours of maths education. That is a huge, huge number. And, um, my frustration is then when we look at the um foundation GCSE paper at 16 and we say, oh x percent of people of at 16 are failing this, let's make that exam easier. I don't think for your own children, for your own grandchildren, you would think that that was acceptable. If you look through a foundation GCSE maths paper, the vast majority of it is actually um numeracy, arithmetic, uh, proportional reasoning.

By which I mean you've got a triangle which doubles in size here. What's what's going to happen to this square if you also double it. That is actually extremely practical for our day to day life. Of course, there are some questions at the end which go into algebra, some expanding brackets and things, which is appropriate if you're talking about children who are taking the foundation GCSE and aiming for that five, that strong pass. But I don't think we should be playing around too much with the GCSE exam curriculum.

What's really the problem is that we have 16 year olds who come, um, to that exam paper and too many of them can't can't. Access, let's say the first two thirds of that foundation GCSE paper, despite the many, many hours of teaching that they've had. For me, one of the interventions that I think was most powerful that I saw as a teacher was when the multiplication tables check was introduced in year four, the the emphasis, the understanding that those times table skills were so foundational for everything that came beyond.

It really was understood because there was that degree of accountability for that skill, those kind of gates, which are actually on an extremely defined part of the curriculum. We're not saying, let's test everything in lots of disparate contexts so that the teachers don't know where to focus is extremely powerful. I know that the government are talking about potentially doing something similar for key stage one, and if we can get that right, so that's the right gate. So that teachers really understand this is what we need to focus on for six and seven year olds so that we know that they're numerate.

That could be really powerful. So for me, that's something like those addition skills to complement those multiplication skills. The children that are predominantly failing maths GCSE, by which I mean getting a 1 to 3 are often still counting on their fingers at 16 something. Has gone wrong there. Um, and absolutely you've got teachers who are throwing everything at the wall when these are 1516 year olds. It's extremely high stakes for the school to get those those children through.

Um, but really we need to be going further downstream and looking earlier and earlier so that we can get as many through in a, in a keep up way, you know, keeping them up to date with where they should be in the curriculum. But then we can really target the children that will not, you know, get that pass mark in those, in those, um, gateways and target the interventions then to get those, get those children to catch up. Um, we.
11:24
11:24
None Portrait Speaker 7
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So rethink maths is all about it's all about it's all about saying, okay, we have the phonics screening check in key stage one. And that's so powerful for lots of reasons. You know, it's not just the fact that it's phonics as a topic area, it's the fact that it is, um, short daily practice and more or less daily practice, ten, 15 minutes of whole class termly assessment. So your child does a five minute assessment at the end of each term. It's not high stakes.

They don't worry about it, but it allows you to triage the children into these children need more support next term. These children are on track. And so you can target, okay, the Tas, the teaching assistant, is going to spend more time with these children and rethink maths is applying a similar philosophy for everything from three and four year olds in nursery classes through to year, year one with a year two catch up year. So very similar to the time scales in which you would do phonics scheme.

Um, and this little and often daily practice people say, oh my goodness, I can't believe you're going to sit four year olds down and teach them stuff. They love it. It's really interactive. There's lots of call and response and they can see themselves getting better. And that gives us a really solid foundation. Then for these six and seven year olds to go on, we talk in, um, reading about you learn to read so that then you can read to learn and the equivalent in maths, you learn those maths skills, you get that done so that you can, so that you can use these math skills in the, you can apply them to problems you can do mathematics rather than just arithmetic.

And if we can, if we can apply that philosophy to numeracy into maths, I think we'll be well on our way to to seeing, seeing some real changes.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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I find this very interesting. People have put to you the idea that you could have an English equivalent of an English language and an English literature GCSE, but for, let's say, numeracy and maths, where maths would be geometry, you're more abstract, your more difficult algebra. English language is taken by the whole gamut of students. And actually, you know, you require that differentiation. Then, in an English language paper between a grade nine and a grade eight. So I think that actually makes it worse for those children who are struggling the most, because we would have to turn, let's say we were replacing foundation and hire with a numeracy and GCSE maths numeracy paper would have to be be sufficiently challenging to be able to discriminate between a grade nine and a grade eight.

I don't think that works for maths because maths is so intrinsically hierarchical. There are two distinct domains in the in the English analogy of language, linguistics, etc. and literature, books, poetry, etc. that's not really. There isn't really an equivalent for that maths. When we're talking about these numerical skills. They are the foundation of of every direction in which you can take maths. So the foundation of the geometry, the foundation of the financial literacy, if you want to take it in a more practical direction, I think it would be really hard to serve the children that struggle the most with a numeracy GCSE that spanned that whole grade range from grade nine to grade one.
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11:30
None Portrait Speaker 11
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Thank you.
11:30
None Portrait Speaker 1
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Well, Massey.
11:31
11:31
None Portrait Speaker 2
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I can spend a moment on multiply and then um Lizzie and I could give you our broader thoughts on, on how best to support adults, which I think we will probably separate into how do we support young adults, i.e. those those children who have just missed out on the GCSE, because I think we have a specific set of views on that. And then more broadly, the adult population. Um, I, you know, when I initiated multiply as Chancellor, it was because as we've all been discussing, you know, I think numeracy is, is important and foundational and would be good for those individuals as, as well as society, the economy in the country at large.

You know, I was encouraged by what I read in the evaluation report. You know, what multiply seemed to do successfully. And obviously I wasn't involved in the intimate detail of delivering the programme, but it did seem to do a very good job of of widening and broadening participation in adult numeracy programmes. I mean, it's significantly increasing the number of adults from a wide variety of backgrounds that then engaged with the programme who otherwise would not have. In that sense, it was hugely additive.

And I think that's something that you always want to make sure that the policy you're doing is additive rather than duplicative or replacing other things, so that that was a success. And, and the completion rates were very positive. And then adults went on to further courses and study, which again, is positive. Uh, I was actually quite struck, I think, I think it was something like the calculation was 85% of people on these multiply courses would otherwise not have done. Um, and numeracy oriented adult education course.

So it's pretty striking. And it covered almost a quarter of a million people. And I think that the completion rate was 97%, again, very positive for programmes like this. I think reflections and you know. If one was looking at doing something like this in the future, which obviously I would be supportive of, and I think there is this open question as to whether there should be some type of accreditation and that this programme should be, uh, focused on. On giving people something that they can walk away with, which also would mean the programme itself could be measured as, as well and evaluate it from that perspective.

Again, that that I think has a there's a strong case for that. I know they debated it apparently at the time of the programme and felt that it would harm participation, but I think that is a sensible thing to look at. And then the other reflection, hearing from everyone was those involved in delivering it, those involved in benefiting from it or thought it was excellent and good. Um, but they all said there should have been greater national visibility and awareness of, of the programme in a more at this point before about a more coordinated effort for everyone to know this programme is important.

This topic is important, slightly distinct from the general skills messaging that government puts out, that this is foundational, whether it's job centres, central government, everyone saying a bit more about this, that seemed to be quite a strong message that came across from everyone. So those are some reflections on on multiply, as I said. And then when it comes to adults, I do think it's worth differentiating between picking up from your question, what do we do with those children who have missed out on GCSE?And then separately, how do we help adults in, in general?
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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I'll do the finance.
11:34
None Portrait Speaker 11
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Yeah. So 16 to 19 the GCSE reset policy um I think is very important for those children that have got let's say a three. And they've just missed out. They're nearly there. Let's give them another chance to, to get that, that piece of paper, which can be absolutely life changing for them. Um, I'm very curious to see what the stepping stone qualification will be for the, um children. One who got ones and twos what I will.

Say is that we have been spoken to lots of colleges, lots of learners over the past six months, and they're the functional skills qualification, which I think is often meant to be. This alternative has lots of problems, and I would say that stems from the fact that to make it functional with lots of different contexts and to make it fair to learners who, let's say you're doing welding and, you know, the world of welding very well, you wouldn't need paragraphs to explain that context, but all the other learners who are also taking this qualification would it's very, very hard to do that in a way that's not extremely wordy.

And, you know, often quite niche topics that you're trying to do and the maths kind of get lost, gets lost in that, right. It becomes a test of, do you understand this context?And do you have the literacy ability rather than the functional skills, maths focus that it's intended to be?There are definite advantages and there are reasons why people take that qualification. For example, Sarah Weight saying it works well for NEETs who would otherwise not be coming into college. They're not going to wait until June to sit their test.

Let's get them. Let's get them to do it in a much more flexible way. But I would say that is the inherent challenge of something that's as broad as functional skills that you can't say it needs to be. To be fair, it needs to apply in lots of different contexts. It's really hard to do that. Well.
11:36
None Portrait Speaker 5
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Which is the last thing on that is there is something incredibly foundational about having GCSE maths, I think. And when we think about alternative qualifications, that the challenge you always have is will they be valued by employers?Right. Obviously they can help people in their day to day lives if they get these skills, but ultimately, if they're going to translate to better employment outcomes and earnings outcomes, you need to make sure employers understand them and value them. And I would say my reflection when in government thinking about this is that it's quite a hard thing to do.

And it takes time, and it requires an incredibly concerted effort from government working with businesses to make sure that they do value it. So whatever you do, that is not a GCSE. You very quickly need to make sure has some currency, otherwise it won't end up benefiting people. Um, actually in the labour market. But I think supporting these young adults to get this foundational qualification is vital because it has an enormous impact on their lifetime earnings. And that's why getting this bit right, as Budil said.

And again, there's a you've heard, I think Sarah has given evidence from Get Further, which is a fantastic organisation that focuses on on this area. It's a tricky thing to get right, but I think it's worthy of attention. And then that maybe Lizzie can talk to you a little bit about, given that we believe this is really foundational, important. How do you help people in their 20s and 30s and beyond who didn't pick it up the first time around?Um, get that, get that qualification.
11:38
None Portrait Speaker 7
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And it's a different picture there because they are coming back. The programs that we've seen so far are people coming back to maths, maybe observing its effect on their employment and their broader life, which is great because it speaks to that intrinsic motivation, recognition of numbers being important that we mentioned earlier. I think there we'd see a different set of potential opportunities to improve the space. So we there are some great examples of, um, up and down the country of programs that provide to those sort of older adults, people whose age doesn't end in teen.

Um, and, but it varies, it's patchy. And so you might have live in a postcode where the provision is fantastic. You might do, do less. Well, um, what we see is actually, I think an opportunity to improve online delivery. So we've spoken to some fantastic online providers who are turning away applicants in their thousands. Um, because the funding rules today mean that you need to be from the area where the physical college is. Sorry, uh, in order to enrol, we see that as quite a crucial missed opportunity.

It also shows up, incidentally, in where the individual actually takes the exam. So studying online, but doing an exam in person presents challenges with the distribution of funding locally versus nationally. So we think that's a very interesting, um, prospect that people should consider. Uh, and then I think we should be thinking more broadly about how we can encourage more organisations to offer provision digitally where they are currently focused in colleges. I know you mentioned the financial literacy piece. I think it's related, but.
11:39
None Portrait Speaker 5
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We should probably get on to that separately. But to your point on what can government do?This is one area where and Fran, who's on our team has done great work on this is I know again, we set ourselves an essay. Question of. We want to support adults later in life, um, with gaining this foundational qualification that at least now is the best way for them to get the skills they need and signal to employers that they have them. How do we do that?Actually, an online delivery is the most cost effective way to do it, but also means you can standardise the teaching and you can reach people at a time that is convenient for them, because adults are busy with their lives and they're not like school kids, where you know where they are during the day and they're captive to you.

So as we try to find the solution, we run up against these policy issues where we've devolved these adult education budgets and the way that they are being deployed locally in areas is that the funding take a step back. Everyone's entitled. If they don't have a level two qualification. It's something that I changed in government to to get this level two qualification at any stage in their life, which is a good positive step. But the local authority likely is going to say, you have to do it at a provider that is in our area.

It has to be delivered in person. And so then you've got hang on, we've got this brilliant online provider that could do this nationally, very high quality, standardised curriculum. Adults prefer to do these things online because it's flexible. But there are these funding and policy things that stop that from from happening. So that's kind of one area that the committee can can look at in its recommendations, because we certainly are going to spend more time and more of our financial resources to help adults who want to do this.

We're likely to want to find a technology enabled way to do it, but it will ultimately run up against some of these, these challenges down, down the line. Um, and then maybe just to pick up on what Bodil said from a kind of policy change again, is this this, this transition from school to college on the resets and, and sharing of information. You might want to tell the committee because again, this is a kind of practical thing that the committee, I think hopefully can can put a bit of pressure on to, to help these children who don't get the GCSE who are then off at college.
11:41
None Portrait Speaker 11
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Yeah. So we heard from 16 year olds who then went on to college, and let's say they are doing hair and beauty as their main their main course, but they are required to go to maths lessons, often against their will, because they got a three in their GCSEs at 16. And what we saw is that if you are retaking English, you are likely to gradually, you know, nudge up and improve a little bit every single time you take it. That's much less likely in maths.

And you can kind of understand that because if you're not using, you're writing in your coursework every day for your health and social care or whatever course you're doing, you're not using those maths muscles in the same way. Apart from in these maths lessons. So there's something, if we believe this piece of paper is really important about making sure that we really seize the moment on that transition from school to college. A year 11 teacher can tell you backwards and forwards what the gaps are for each individual pupil.

They can tell you that in the bag they're not in the bag, but that knowledge is lost. Then when they go to college, it's the information flow doesn't pass through. Individual learners are entitled to the entirety of their script from the GCSE that they sat, and something as simple as telling students, you can request that and pass it on to your college and say, look, this is where I lost the marks. Then if they do take their GCSE in November, that that term, that's really not long.

You've got September, October, November to really go from that three to the four. They've got a much better chance of of really bagging that qualification. So there's something about that transition from school to college, which is where many of these students who don't get a pass go, that I think we could, um, I think we can improve.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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My previous.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Yes, it's an excellent question and we think there is a role for employers with adults. The way I when I talk to them and when I'm visiting businesses, you know, the pitch to them would be, look, there's a couple of aspects to this. First, you know, your employees are more likely to be able to do their job better and hopefully progress in your organisation if they have these skills. But also there's a benefit to you from having a more financially literate, confident workforce. And most employers agree that actually, if their employees have got financial issues, that they're grappling with, it distracts them from their work that ultimately going to be less focused, less engaged, less productive for you at work, if there is financial anxiety elsewhere in their life.

So given that, I think there's a strong incentive or should be for employers to do this, and many do it very well, and I remember visiting, um, those businesses in government and incredibly inspiring stories of actually, you know, people who had been working with companies starting as young children without any 16 year olds, without any qualifications where the company had supported them over their career to, to move up. And actually, you know, that's brilliant for everybody. Um, the other reason that we'd like employers to do it and we're going to try and find ways to do this.

And it speaks to what I said earlier is it's quite hard to reach adults. So it's easy when we think about school children 16 to 19. And in early years, it's difficult to coordinate. But we broadly know how to get get at them. Adults are tricky. And actually, unless you're doing it through their in their. Employers, you'll rely largely on them either doing an online course, which is certainly easier than physically showing up to their local education college.

So actually, more employers do this, you're more likely to be able to get to adults because you should always meet people where they are, which is a good bit of advice we got when we were setting up. And lots of people who have been in this for longer than we have said that, and it is good advice, and workplaces in that sense are, you know, have a unique opportunity to engage with adults and then support them in not in a self-interested way alone. Um, but also more broadly for the individual.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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You.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Perfect. Uh, well, thank you, Lady Shawcross. Um, if, uh, maybe I'll cover one particular aspect of it called the big three. And then maybe, um, Lizzy can talk to you about our broader work with the Boston Consulting Group on, on financial literacy education in general. And then, um, Bodle can pick up about how you deliver this in classrooms. Um, so there's a professor at Stanford, Annamaria Lusardi, who for over two decades has pioneered research into financial literacy education, and specifically, uh, come across the, what she terms the big three and what she has concluded from all her work is that there are three straightforward questions that are the best way to gauge people's financial literacy, competence and understanding.

Three foundational concepts. One of those questions is around inflation. The other one is around compounding compound interest, and the third is around risk diversification. And they've tested her and her team have tested those questions rigorously across multiple countries over multiple years. For the first time. In a similar way, we conducted that research here in in the UK earlier this year. And, the findings were in many ways a wake up call because 40% of adults could not answer the big three, which puts us below lots of peer countries like Germany, the United States, Canada, others.

Um, so there is work to do here. Um, so when it comes to the curriculum and the work that we've been doing with DfE, we're keen to make sure that these concepts find their way into the financial literacy curriculum because they've been proven based with decades of evidence and research by brilliant academics to be incredibly important to helping us understand. And we're thinking a little bit more broadly beyond that financial literacy curriculum for young people. We are thinking about how we can get a greater awareness of those big three in the adult population as well.

But I'll maybe hand over to Lizzy to talk a little bit about the broader work that we're doing with DfE and, and Boston Consulting Group, and then we'll pick up the school delivery bit in the classroom.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Yeah, absolutely. We are um, one of the reasons I think the big three is so compelling is because it is manageable. Um, so we were struck when we released our financial literacy report by the resonance of three things. And you see that in lots of other different areas, they are memorable and engaging, which I think is important, especially when we think about not only the children in the school, but their parents and their own financial literacy. So the what really matters.

And as Rishi said, we've been emphasizing that in our discussions. They interplay with all sorts of concepts, from borrowing through to planning for retirement. It's quite holistic. Despite being this manageable set of three things. Um, but the how is also really important. So we were lucky enough to do a big piece of research with Boston Consulting Group, as Rishi mentioned on best practice financial education programs globally. Um, and their recommendations were really revealing. So in terms of the what?Yes, I think being rooted in numeracy sounds a given, but it actually isn't.

So it's important to say that out loud. Financial literacy should be explicitly connected to numeracy. But the how so how it's actually put into place is just as important in terms of getting people engaged. And that looks like a few specific things, most notably regular revisiting of topics in age appropriate ways. So sequencing so that, for example, you might learn about the very basics of borrowing in key stage one, but you would come back to interest as a percentage later on.

But it's that building and repetitive nature that is really important. And then intuitively, I think situating it in the in the child's real life context with as many opportunities to be as practical as possible. And so we have just coming back to the work with the Department for education, we've shared all of that knowledge with them in our interactions. Uh, because I think that will be key to success. And both can say a little bit about the testing in schools, which will also be doing for the department.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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But if you.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Yes, yes.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Well.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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That's very exciting.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Most important.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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If you. Napkin.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Rectangle. Napkin.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Circle plate.
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None Portrait Speaker 16
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Very good. Thanks.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Yeah. Good luck.
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None Portrait Speaker 14
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Yeah, Eddie.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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But.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Big big big question. Um well my. My quick response I'm obviously a passionate believer that AI in particular is going to transform every aspect of our economy, our society, our lives. And if we get it right for the better and we have to prepare young people for that, that world and to be able to use those tools. But in my mind, um, absolutely no change to the importance that we should place on them having foundational numeracy. I mean, when I was in government, I thought people should study more numeracy all the way to 18.

I absolutely still believe that today. And I think the best way to prepare young people for this world, on top of making sure that they can use these new tools, is for them to have a breadth of understanding and knowledge, because ultimately, the human judgment is going to get more and more important. And we have to make sure that we understand there's a difference between knowledge and wisdom or knowledge and judgment. And these machines are going to be great at having lots of knowledge.

But the ability to critique that, to judge the output of it, to know actually what the right question to ask, to sense check, you know, those will remain critical human skills. And if you haven't had the cognitive education. I think all the way up to 18 in numerical concepts, I don't think actually that you will be well placed to thrive in that world if you're overly reliant on the machine without that ability. So that would be my, that would be my, my quick answer.

Quick answer on that.
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None Portrait Speaker 8
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Thank you. Well.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Well, I think we'll we'll all have a go. Um, Alexander and um, and hopefully. As we've been going through, I think we've been trying to, to give you a sense of very, some specific micro policy areas that I think are worthy of your attention and, and time to recommend to the government. Uh, we organize our work in, in three, three buckets, family foundations and, and financial, uh, and maybe I will speak to the family aspect of it, which many of you have asked about.

Um, and, and it seems to me that. A recommendation, certainly our recommendation is that we've got to focus on the intergenerational and the cultural aspects of this. And part of dealing with the cultural issue around numbers and the, or the lack of confidence and anxiety people have around it. Um, is by tackling this intergenerational issue. We were just talking about grandparents, but it's so it's so clear that that link between parents and grandparents and little children is, is absolutely critical. And look, I'm not I'm not going to pretend it's an easy thing for government to get at, but it's probably the kind of thing that government is not well set up to think even about in the first place.

Um, but on this they we should be thinking about it as how do we break that intergenerational link?And if we don't, we're going to be here in years to come. Still talking about the fact that people don't think that their numbers people or they're scared about maths, and we really want to break that cycle and have everyone feel confident around numbers because it's going to unlock greater opportunities for them, better control in their lives, and ultimately a transform their life for the better. But that requires us to think about breaking this intergenerational loop.

And we've talked about lots of different ways you can do that. But I think the macro observation is thinking about that in the in the first place. So that would be my, um, my quick thing and then. thank you, Lizzie, do you want to pick one of the others?
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None Portrait Speaker 17
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Okay.
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None Portrait Speaker 18
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Um, thank you chair. Thanks for having us here today. I'm Sam Simms, I'm the chief executive of the charity National Numeracy. And I've had the privilege and pleasure to meet you previously as well. So. Um, thinking about those specific areas around the culture and then what, what we are, uh, what we are doing to address that. I think to start around culture, um, mass anxiety, confidence, these things are closely related. And when it comes to lack of confidence that informs this around numbers and maths, we know this is widely experienced.

This is a critical national issue experienced at some scale. It affects overall in general women more than men. When it comes to confidence with numbers, a mass anxiety and we know that this holds people back. We also know it's changeable, we know it's very changeable. And I can set out some ways, um in which we go about changing that. When it comes to culture, though, we know that particularly younger adults under 34, for example, will avoid situations in large numbers, will avoid situations which involve numbers and maths.

And we have good data on this. We also know that, uh, particularly again, all adults, but younger adults even more so, um, will as much as half will avoid applying for a job, for example, or a qualification taking a qualification if they know that numbers or maths is involved or mentioned or part of the process. So this, this sort of culture around feeling a lack of confidence is really holding many people back. About 32% of adults from our research say they feel anxious when put in situations that they have to use numbers.

Culturally, though, not that many adults with low numeracy say they want to improve their numeracy. And that's, I think, very, very interesting. Um, they either don't see necessarily the need to do that or see how it would benefit them. And I think the second of those is absolutely key to how we start changing this culture. There's a separation between what we actually think, numeracy or maths is what it meant to us when we were young at school. And actually what it could mean to us, the value that we might gain from it in our lives.

And I think that's critical to changing culture. Um, less than half of all adults say that they would feel embarrassed to say that they, um, they can't do maths, that they were no good with numbers and maths. And that compares to 65% when it comes to reading and writing. So there is this big separation in culture as well around, uh, numbers and maths as compared to reading and writing that we need to address. So we know it's a huge issue. We have really important clues about how to address it.

The place I would start is this intergenerational nature of, uh, both. Confidence and numeracy skills that we see through come through time and time again. And it's a big way in which national numeracy works to address low numeracy right across the UK. On the ground in all four nations. So what we do is work to empower communities, whether those are school communities, local communities, employers working with local partners who are best placed to meet people where they are to start to bring about change.

So rather than introducing somewhere else, people need to go, uh, and work in a different way with different people. We make sure that we actually equip people locally who are already working with people to be able to bring about that change. Crucially around culture, we need to focus much more on motivations and outcomes. So why why should we be numerate?Why should we invest in this?I think we have too much focus on seeing numeracy as the outcome. I would say numeracy is not the outcome.

When we want to motivate people who might struggle to to improve, the outcome needs to be something else. It needs to be how that will help you get into work or get on at work, improve how you manage your money or feel more comfortable with it, um, or how you support your children. That needs to be much more about that's the reason we're doing it. Not for the sake of, of being good with numbers. I think that's crucially powerful and how we work with communities.

We need to remove the barriers, bite size, learning, informal approaches to get people started. Most people that struggle are not ready to engage with a significant maths course. For example, there is no place ready to do that for a wide range of reasons. So we need to give people a way to start to reach them and to make a start. And as we see in so many other areas, that will then lead to greater and deeper engagement. I'll I'll stop there.
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None Portrait Speaker 18
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You want me to do that?Um, so first I would say um there is evidence around improvement in confidence. And our research shows that improving number confidence is the most the strongest predictor of a subsequent. Movement in skills. So I think there is an inference there. But that's, that's absolutely crucial. We know that um 33%, a third of learners on multiply went on to pursue a further course. That's a good evidence of progression.

We know as well that um, that 80%, 81% of learners with parental responsibilities said that the programme had improved their confidence in helping their children with their homework. And talking about maths. Now, that's a very specific, I think, strong outcome. Multiply provided I think in many ways the missing link before, if you want to do a maths course, you had um and and you know, what the evidence shows us is not many people do. And in declining numbers over the last decade, significantly declining numbers over the past decade.

And for understandable reasons, people don't do do that in, in high numbers with multiply, it was all about, look, if you want to help the kids that you're that are in your care, you want to get on at work, you want to build a career, you want to make a start. You want something to add value and then go on from there. That's what it provided, which is what, which wasn't. And now again, isn't actually available in any other way to people. It allowed, um, local communities to reach those hardest to reach people and to get them started.

And I think that is an incredibly powerful outcome. And I know this because, um, both in terms of the development of the sort of policy, but also in the delivery of this national numeracy was, was, was heavily involved. And we've seen that those results ourselves.
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None Portrait Speaker 19
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I'm not an expert on multiply, but I would like to just say about 1 or 2 things that are happening out in the wider mathematics space, which is, um, supporting the. Publicity, if you like, about mathematics and numeracy. So, um, one of the charities in which I'm a trustee is called Maths World UK and we have a maths Exploratorium in London and we have another one in Leeds and Leeds. We have been funded to have a two year city of Leeds, City of Maths in Leeds.

So there are all sorts of activities going on. For example, um Asda is. Going with us. One of the challenges is how many how many litres of milk do you think were sold last week. So these are all about things that are accessible. You don't need to be able to do calculations to do all of these things. But estimation is a really important thing. Um, uh, you have had, uh. Information from the Maths Futures project.

I know last week from Professor Jane Clark. Um, so Maths futures talks about general literacy, um literacy in mathematics. That's not the same as arithmetic. Arithmetic is the precursor to doing the mathematics that you need for, for numeracy. Um the Academy of Mathematical Sciences has looked at the contribution of the mathematical sciences to the, the budget of the, of the country, uh, and has done a very extensive read on the Deloitte's report. So all of these things are out in the public domain, um, and are being publicised as much as we can in order to show the importance of mathematics.

Mathematics is not numeracy and numeracy is not mathematics. But obviously they're very closely, very closely aligned.
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None Portrait Speaker 14
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Thank you, Lady Ball.
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None Portrait Speaker 18
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Um well thank you. Where I would um start is by saying that we don't really have a supply issue. And we have, when it comes to provision. So I think we've, um, we've incorrectly diagnosed the issue as let's put on more courses, let's give more people more things to do successively over decades because we've identified if we just provided more and we made it free and free to a higher level, more people would do it. The problem is it's not a supply issue.

When we're talking about adult learners, it's a demand issue primarily. So we have to recognise that. And to come back to multiply. It was the first initiative that did recognise that in the adult funding space. That said, how do we boost demand here?How do we get people started?How do we provide flexibility?Um, allow local authorities, local providers to work with different types of organisation and be nimble, um, and get people started experiencing something in a different way than they've ever experienced it before.

This is absolutely key boosting demand by starting with, how are we going to get more people engaged, started experiencing success, having previously typically experienced experienced a great deal of failure and say, uh, I am a maths person. I can do this, that I, I, I know now that I can improve and we see that with multiply, not just the impact on adult numeracy levels or course going on to take further courses, but also, um, learning in other areas. We know that when we support people, adults to improve their numeracy, not only are they more likely to go on further, but they're more likely, our research shows, to learn in other areas of their life as well, because it's a barrier they've removed.

So the the key to addressing this, beyond all the things that are currently being done, many of them are fantastic, is to focus much more on boosting demand by giving that flexibility locally.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Yeah.
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None Portrait Speaker 14
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Thank you Lord.
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None Portrait Speaker 14
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Thank you, Lady Bull.
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None Portrait Speaker 12
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Oh, apologies.
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None Portrait Speaker 19
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So I would totally agree with previous speakers that the starting point has to be in early years. And it's good to see the government is putting in a lot of money at the moment into early years, which is which is good. I think, um, things that could be improved in early years because we know that what happens in early years has a really significant knock on effect into the future is to ensure that those people who are early years practitioners are really expert, not only in literacy and the start of literacy, but also in numeracy.

And it was a little time ago when the the need for numeracy, for nursery nurses to have a GCSE maths was removed. So there is there is a lack of expertise in that in that very early area. Um in terms of what happens when students go into key stage one and into Key stage two, um. I have the privilege of chairing the DfE drafting group, and we've been looking very carefully at the amount of content there is in key stage one, because there's quite a lot to do in just those two years.

You have to take in quite a lot of very basic and very, very important mathematical ideas. And so with direction from the car and from the DfE, we're trying to space out that content. So that key stage one is much more about using a smaller amount of knowledge, but in a much more sophisticated way, so that they really have a deep understanding. And then that obviously has a knock on to key stage two. Because if in key stage one, you're secure when you start Key stage two, you're starting from a good place.

Instead of having to try and do retrograde retrograde work. 40% of key stage two children do not achieve the expected standard 40%. So not far off half the children leaving primary school do not achieve. What the government has said is an expected standard. So one of the things that we're hoping is by spacing out, giving more time for problem solving and reasoning, which is the purpose of doing mathematics anyway. That actually we'll get to the point where we've got a much higher percentage of students reaching, reaching that accepted standard.

And in terms of the curriculum in key stage three, one of the things we know about financial literacy is that the mathematics underpinning it is mostly about proportional reasoning. So key stage one children talk about additive reasoning. By the time they get into Key Stage two, they're talking about multiplicative reasoning. And then by the time they get into Key stage three, they're talking about proportional reasoning. And proportional reasoning is all about ratios and percentages, all of those sorts of things, which are the absolute groundings for a lot of financial literacy.

And so in the curriculum, we are trying, it's a shame that the curriculum is about evolution, not revolution, because we'd have loved to have done some revolutionary things, but we haven't been allowed to do that. We've had to stick within the parameters, but we are trying to make sure that these things are consistent and coherent. And in terms of the work that Rishi Sunak and his colleagues have been doing with citizenship, we've made sure that the mathematics that is needed in citizenship for financial literacy is taught in mathematics first, before they meet it in other subjects.

Similarly, the mathematics that they need in science or in geography or in computer science, they meet first in mathematics before they then meet it in other subjects. And you might think that that's been so forever, but that is revolutionary.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Um.
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None Portrait Speaker 11
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And I, and I would just add, you know, just on picking up at the end of end of Lynn's points there, it is worth it. Um, because, uh, if it's done well, it can be that difference between seeing maths as something abstract, maths for the sake of maths, which um, you know, you know, has tremendous value in itself, but for people that um for lots of people it's about how they're going to use it and making, allowing people to see the connections between what they're learning and how it's going to benefit them, I think does an awful lot of good, which is why it's worth doing this.

At national numeracy, we'd never, uh, use. Any, um, any mathematical notation that's not contextualized. It's the approach we take particularly focused on people with lower levels of numeracy, because we've seen time and time again through our research that that is what helps people break the connections which they've had, which is this is something that I learnt at school, the reward for which was not having to do it again, um, to something that hang on a minute, you know, this is something that can help me. I'm using this all the time.

The number of, you know, the examples that we have of where we would, we asked people en masse, you know, do you use maths in your daily life?And the vast majority of people will consistently say, no, I don't. And then we will say, well, tell us what job you do. And then we start to go through some examples and suddenly, yes, I'm using maths. Not just every day, probably every hour. So there's this disconnect and contextualizing, um contextualizing numbers and maths really helps um make those connections to towards value.

And value is a big part of the proposition that gets people to engage and invest in something because it benefits, they can see the benefit to them. So it's hard, but absolutely worth it I think.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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Right.
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None Portrait Speaker 15
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Brilliant.
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None Portrait Speaker 15
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 11
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We all have something to maybe add on that. Certainly from, from the perspective of national numeracy. Much in favour of the use of, of technology, but absolutely in the example you gave is the, is a perfect example, which is um it should accompany having those, those fundamental numeracy skills and confidence in place, it should be used in conjunction so that, you know, um, firstly that what you're putting in is, is what you is, is the right kind of query. And then secondly, to be able to know what you're getting out is, um, likely to be accurate.

It's, you know, it sounds about right. Um, because I think the risk with all kinds of technology when we use rely on it entirely is not just that we don't, we make those mistakes because we, we trust it too much, but there is a risk, therefore, that we stop worrying about putting those, those foundations in place at all. And then I think we have a much, much bigger problem, uh, as a society as well. Um, we are um, alongside a research organisation, policy connect and KPMG and businesses of the National Numeracy Leadership Council that I mentioned earlier, um, have undertaken some research on AI numeracy and social mobility and this is due to be published in less than less than two weeks actually.

So we'll have a lot more to share around those interdependencies very, very shortly. But what I would say is um numeracy is absolutely critical to, well, essential to have that to be able to critically engage with information, um, particularly when we're using technology. Um, it's not really sufficiently recognised or understood. Um we know that actually, you know, many people, significant proportion of people don't necessarily see that yet in the same way as they don't see that they're using numbers in their daily lives. So when it comes to things like checking accuracy, using estimation, consistency, understanding probability, likelihood, these are all things that we absolutely have to have in place in order to get the most from technology and to avoid making mistakes.

I think overall, I would say.
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None Portrait Speaker 12
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Each or together.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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Numeracy.
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This debate has concluded
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