Live Debate: Education Committee - 8th Jul 2026

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Education Committee

Wednesday 8th July 2026

(began 2 months, 2 weeks ago)

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10:00

Speaker 1

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Welcome to this oral evidence session of the Education Select Committee this morning. This is the final evidence session in the committee's inquiry on the early years, and we are pleased to welcome Minister Olivia Bailey to answer questions from the committee this morning. Thank you very much for being here, Minister. Would you like to introduce yourself and your official who's with us today and say anything by way of opening remarks that you'd like to.

10:00

Speaker 2

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Thank you very much, chair. And it's a it's a great pleasure to be here. And thank you for this inquiry, which I'm really looking forward to reading the outcome of. I'm here with Chris Armstrong. Stacey, who is director of early years in the Department for education, and I mangled your job title as. That's correct. Very good. So thank you for the opportunity to say a few brief opening remarks. A year ago yesterday.

Um, and I thought it would be a good opportunity just to reflect on some of the things I think we've achieved in that year, briefly at the outset. So firstly, on childcare and early education, um, the record expansion of the entitlement has gone very well this year. And we've now got record numbers of children in early education and making huge savings for families and as well. So around £8,000 for working families, which is making a big difference to family finances. We've also taken action to try and make sure that we've got places where they're needed.

So we've got early years teacher incentives, for example, in more disadvantaged areas, school based nurseries. We've taken action to increase quality, doubling the number of stronger practice hubs, funding evidence based interventions like Nelly. And we've got a real focus on reception year as well, which is so important as we drive towards our target of 75% good level of development by the end of the Parliament. On best start family hubs and restoring family support. Um, it's been a huge privilege to work on restoring family services after Surestart was Surestart was so cruelly cut by the conservative government, and I'm pleased to report that there is now at least one best start family hub in every local authority area, and we're going to get to 3000 hubs and network sites by the end of the parliament, which makes a huge difference for families in their community on their doorstep, a place where they can come for connection, a cup of tea, a conversation, free stay and play, and a great opportunity for those families.

And we aren't just opening buildings, but transforming the system too. So connecting services together involving PVI schools, libraries, voluntary groups to take family support to where people are. And I wanted to mention today just a few things that we've talked about this week that we're doing to galvanise action even further. So this week we've published procurement for a new match fund, um, to draw in investment from philanthropists, charities and social investors alongside council's own funding to really maximize the funding that they have. We've begun the search for an expert delivery partner to work hand in hand with councils on the ground, and later today, actually, I'm going to meet my new delivery coalition who are going to help me make this programme as good as it can be.

And finally, chair, if it's okay, I'll just briefly say, on the issue of safeguarding, um, I really welcome that you extended the remit of your inquiry to look at this crucial issue. And I just wanted to say that there is nothing more important in my job than keeping children safe. And I wanted to assure the committee that we're doing everything that we can to do that. We've made updates to the Early Years Foundation stage safeguarding and welfare requirements we're making offset the designated whistleblowing body.

For early years, we've introduced, um, Ofsted inspections for safe sleep practices. We've also recently announced additional funding for offset, which is going to be £8 million a year to support 3000 unannounced inspections each year in increased number of inspectors for larger or more complex settings, and a strengthened registration process, with a sharper focus on assessing applicants suitability. Um, having concluded our regulatory review of large provider groups, we will give Ofsted new powers to identify risks and take actions across these groups, not just individual settings. And ongoing work is underway on the use of CCTV and digital devices in settings.

And I'm looking forward to discussing all of these topics today. But chair, we have heard really, really clearly from parents and from providers and from everybody. We talk to that it's statute, and regulation alone is not enough. What we need is a brilliant, excellent safeguarding culture in all of our early years settings. And as the Secretary of State said in Parliament a few weeks ago, we will be announcing further changes on this shortly.

10:04

Speaker 1

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Thank you very much indeed. I'll begin our questioning this morning just by zooming out slightly. So we have heard that support, that there is broad support and a good consensus of support across the sector for the department's ambition to give every child the best possible start in life. However, there remains uncertainty about how this ambition will be delivered in practice. So can you say what are the top three measurable changes that you expect families to see by 2028?As a result of the strategy and how you're tracking progress towards those changes?

10:05

Speaker 2

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Um, brilliant question. Thank you very much. Um, chair so, uh, I think maybe I just say, first of all, I think this is the first time in a long time that there has been a proper coherent strategy for the early years. And I'm really pleased to hear that broadly, um, that the witnesses that you've had are supportive of that direction and supportive of that attempt to, to really focus on early years. Um, I think in terms of the top three changes, um, on, uh, early education, I think the best thing I can point to here is our target towards a good level of development.

So it's not just about children being in settings. And we're delighted that there are more children than ever before in early education settings. But it's about the quality of what happens in those settings and setting them up for life and making sure that they're ready for school. Um, and so our really stretching target of 75% of children being ready for school is by the end of the parliament is a really obvious way that we're going to measure that success. And the second thing I would say is I want I think that parents will be feeling, by the by, the next election, a sense of connection again in their community.

Um, they feel the absence, I think of Surestart and it's no coincidence. I don't think that it is. We have this huge problem with, uh, NEETs at this point in time when we've seen what happened to the destruction of family services under the conservatives. So we want to restore that sense of community and connection for families so that when they're in their community, they're in that quite isolating early period of being a new parent. That's somewhere where they can go where they know that they can have a cup of tea and a friendly chat, open, non-judgmental, non-stigmatizing support.

And I think at the next election, I will want all new parents to have felt that sense of connection. And I think also the third thing, I'd probably point to another big area from our best start in life strategy is probably the importance of the workforce. And I just want to say a huge thank you to everybody who works in early years. They do the most amazing job. It's been such a huge privilege meeting them, so many of them over the course of the year.

And they deserve the recognition and the support. And often it's not fair when you look at the recognition and support that people who are working in schools get, and we want that for people working in early years too. Um, we're focusing that on that in stages at the moment. So we're focusing at the moment on early years teachers, we've doubled the number of funded places. Um, we want a teacher in every setting. Um, because we think that drives quality.

We want more pathways for, for people who are in the workforce to progress through the workforce. So there's loads of great apprenticeship routes that people can take, including a new early years teachers degree apprenticeship route, which I was delighted that we were able to, to launch. That's going to make a big difference. So I suppose my third top objective would be, um, more support for the workforce. They can see their progression through um and more teachers in early years settings.

10:08

Speaker 1

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Thank you very much. Um, you mentioned the expansion of Best Start family hubs, which is also very much welcomed by the witnesses that we have heard from during our inquiry. Um, and the further expansion that you've announced today is also welcome, but the funding for family hubs does remain substantially lower than the funding that we had at peak, uh, shore start levels. Um, so the first part of this question is, do you accept that the current funding is still insufficient to deliver that presence in every place, in every community?Uh, that I think everybody wants to see.

And that is the government's ambition as well. Is, is there still further to go in securing the funding that you need?

10:09

Speaker 2

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I do accept that the the quantum of funding is not the same as it was under Surestart, but I don't accept that it's not enough. I just want to explain why. So we've got £900 million over the course of the the next three years to to deliver this. So there is significant funding. Um, and it is making a significant difference where I was in Staffordshire, a fantastic family hub the other week, and they were talking to me about the huge relief they've been running on a shoestring.

There's now the money and the funding there to have the ambition that they've always wanted to have for their family hub, so it's making a huge difference. Um, but we also want to make sure that the money is going as far as it can. That's one of the reasons that we've launched the Match fund this week, so that we can, local authorities can put money in and get that funding matched and amplify what they're able to spend in terms of provision and services. But also, we want to see significant reform of how these services are delivered.

It's not just about with Surestart. It was build a building, build a thing people come with what we're doing with Best Start Family Hubs. We don't want to replicate that. We want to take these support services to where people are, which is why we've launched these network sites, which we want to see in nursery settings, in libraries, in schools, places where children already are, places that are already doing so much to support the families that that come through their doors every day, properly connected up with an infrastructure in the local authority that really supports families.

So it is it is significant additional funding that is making a difference. We are working to amplify that funding through innovative ways like the Match Fund, but also it is a redesign and a public service reform agenda that will mean that the that the ambition that we're setting out is definitely deliverable, um, within the quantum of funding that we have available.

10:10

Speaker 1

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Thank you. And I just want to drill in a little bit more on, on this kind of what families will experience at the most local level. So there is, there is a critique, which I think, um, has been made of surestart, but which I think lots of people who were involved in Surestart at the time would reject that. Surestart was just about buildings. Um, Surestart was about buildings, but what buildings gave to communities was a very coherent and clear place to go for access to quite a complicated and extensive range of services.

So I suppose the question is best start family hubs, one in every local authority area. Those areas are really big. Um, and then if the delivery is in a neighbourhood level through lots of different services appearing in lots of different community settings, where is the coherence that gives you the kind of accessibility for families through that delivery model?Because I think there's some confusion. I think I think it is hard to know in lots of places we've got a hub, but the hub is quite a long way from where I am.

10:12

Speaker 2

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Yeah.

10:12

Speaker 1

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What what actually does the hub mean for me and how is it a kind of coherent and meaningful set of interventions, particularly when the strength of it is in bringing together lots of things so that families get the support that they need in the easiest possible way. The easy thing about Surestart was that you could you just had to walk over the threshold of a single place, and everything was there. Um, how is this delivering the same thing in a different way?I've heard what you've said about it's a different model.

How is it delivering that coherence?

10:12

Speaker 2

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Yeah, really great question. And I think the first thing I'd say is, you know, I hear this a lot from families. They're really fed up of the fragmented nature of everything that happens in the infrastructure around children. Um, and, you know, as a one year old and a mum, you don't realise that you're in a healthy baby service. You don't realise that you're in a school, you just, you just want to be somewhere where somebody's going to help you. Um, and you just want somewhere where you get that warm welcome and the step over the threshold and somebody's just helping.

Um, that's what we want to create. I accept, um, with, with the hubs, we've got the ambition for 1000. So that's a lot more, it's a lot more hubs of the full hubs than, than one in every local authority area. And we are focusing those on the areas where we think they're needed the most. And that will make a big difference. There will be a lot more. So I hope in your constituency and members constituencies, there'll be more and more hubs opening and there'll be closer and more accessible.

But the network sites, that's the bigger ambition, the 2000, that is where we're trying to get into much more local communities so that everybody has got something that's more on their doorstep. And I want the same experience in those environments. For somebody to be able to walk in, whether that's the free stay and play that's being put on by the local nursery, and be able to feel that in that moment, they are connected to the wider community of support. This is going to require a different way of doing things from local authorities.

It's one of the reasons why we're rolling out our the support that we are through the implementation partner and other means to support local authorities to do this, because it is a different way of doing things, and because services are quite fragmented too often in local authority areas. And what we want to drive is a bringing together of all of those services so you can get that seamless support. So it doesn't matter if you're in your nursery, your library, your school or your hub, you get the same experience of being able to be helped and supported by a parent.

And I think it's for me, I also just want to emphasize in terms of the question about what families will experience. It is that universal offer that's important. It's that open door. Um, it is the ability to come in to meet people, to not feel like you're going in to ask for help. You haven't got to have an appointment. You haven't got to need to go and see somebody. You're just there because it's a nice place to be.

Um, and you want to be there with your child. So some great hubs I've been to with, um, how to braid your child's hair sessions, um, loads of different things that are going on that are really fantastic. And we want to make sure that parents have that wonderful universal, welcoming experience. Chris, I see your hand.

10:15

Speaker 3

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Yeah. There's also something here about understanding one of the other things that's changed in the period since Shaw started its peak is the number of children who are in nursery settings. And with that, obviously not only they're spending their day there, but also families building, trusting relationships with the staff of those nurseries. And actually that being a welcoming place where they have known professionals. And part of the culture change we're talking about is how that becomes the beginning of a path in to services as families need, rather than being an isolated setting in itself.

10:16

Speaker 1

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Thank you very much. We'll go to Serena.

10:16

Speaker 4

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Thank you chair. As a committee, we've heard evidence that integration between family hubs and services like maternity care and health visitors isn't where it needs to be now in Wolverhampton and Walsall, I've seen some brilliant practice, but that's not consistent across the country. So my question is, when and well, why and. When will the services be truly integrated to ensure that families are getting the right support as early as possible?

10:16

Speaker 2

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Yeah. I mean, I, I. Agree with you entirely about the problem. Um, and whilst there are some wonderful examples of good practice in local authorities and actually where some of the brilliant hubs that I've been to and hubs are fantastic, they are a brilliant hub for the pulling together of all of the services and some of the best examples I've seen, um, are places where you're in the hub. The parents are having a cup of tea downstairs. There's a cafe upstairs, there's an infant feeding baby massage.

Um, there's a, there's also a multidisciplinary team from the local authority in a different room who you can pop up and see. There's everything going on in one place. And that's a physical manifestation. I think, of what we want to see. Um, but I do also want to be honest, I think this is a, it's a challenge. Um, it's a big challenge. Um, and one that we're determined to rise to, um, with how we're working with local authorities.

And it's one of the reasons that we're doing everything we are in terms of the reform of how these services are delivered and spending so much time. You know, I'm hoping to be on a road show next year around local authorities to support them with delivery of this, not just the hubs, but how you integrate services. The implementation partner that we're that we're procuring this week will be focusing on how we can support local authorities to do this across the department. We're very we're very focused on collectively looking at all of our policy areas and making sure we're supporting local authorities to do this in a joined up way.

Um, and I'm confident that with that continued intensive work and support with us, we will get to a position where we can expect that, um, more consistently across all parts of the country.

10:18

Speaker 4

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Okay, so what work is being done to ensure to have that consistency?It's not just about local authorities, it's about engaging with health partners, local schools, wider family services. Um, yeah. And in terms of the family navigators, do you see that as a key part of delivering family hubs?

10:18

Speaker 2

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Um, yes. So absolutely. And Chris, you may want to come in on this in a moment, but I just let me just say on health, I, I really strongly agree about the benefits of health integration. I'm really pleased that we've got healthy baby services in so many local authorities. Now. I'm really pleased that, um, the health department have committed to, to that being in all local authorities, um, as soon as possible. That's really important because you do need that join up.

And we have said in our, in our guidance very clearly to it's not your right. It's not just local authorities, but local authorities play such an important role in convening and encouraging that collaboration. We've also set it to private nurseries, to schools that we want to see and expect that collaboration. Perhaps you'd want to come in.

10:20

Speaker 3

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I think one of the things we hear is a real practical barrier is often sharing of information and data about families. And that's hard because it's hard because you have a collection of data systems locally that are not easily joined up, but it's one of the areas we're asking the implementation partner to work really closely with local authorities on and to build capacity, because there are some areas we've found a way to make it work despite data. And then, as you asked about family navigators, I think one of those things is about helping families navigate an imperfectly complex system, because actually, we can't let families wait for us to do the difficult back end wiring to be able to navigate and get the services they need.

10:20

Speaker 4

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Okay. So do you foresee positive changes occurring because of the unique child identifier and the single patient record?

10:20

Speaker 3

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Those are exactly the sorts of things that make it simpler. They don't do it on their own, but all of those start to create the enabling blocks that allow local services to do that data sharing far more effectively.

10:20

Speaker 1

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Thank you. We go to Darren next.

10:20

Speaker 2

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Thank you, chair Minister.

10:20

Speaker 5

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Department set a goal of 75% of children being school ready by 2028. Are you on track to meet that?

10:21

Speaker 2

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Yes we are. I think the latest data was just over 68%. Um, it's a stretching target and rightly so. We've done lots of things to, to try and make sure that we do hit the target. So every local authority has got their own, um, specific target. Um, we're putting a load of work into supporting teachers and staff in reception year. Um, because that's obviously the end of reception year is where, where this assessment is done, um, to support with, you know, the evidence based interventions that we need, the training that we need a real focus on English and maths in reception year through our English and maths hubs, which will, which will really help with this.

And of course, um, we've also got local authorities have got, we've got, they have funding to deliver evidence based interventions on parenting and the home learning environment for three and four year olds to really focus on the cohort of children who, uh, we need to get over the line for this target, which is going to make a big difference. But I would also say more broadly, of course, what we're hoping as well is that the expansion of the family services that we are bringing to every community means that that all children will continue to advance, and we will continue to make progress above and beyond that 75% target.

10:22

Speaker 5

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Yeah. And specifically on them, who who are the 25%?Who do you see them in terms of demographically or geographically or, you know, what, what are the factors that are making them?The 25% who won't be yet within that target, but actually do need targeted support?What's going on with them?

10:22

Speaker 2

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Yeah, no, and there are lots of, there are lots of different ways that you can look at this problem. And we are we are looking at all of those ways. I think that, um, some of it is there's some geographical considerations. There's disadvantage considerations, there's special educational needs considerations. And we do want to drive up in particular, uh, the data on in those areas, um, which, which, which we, which we will do. Um, and I don't know, Chris, if you want to add any more on that.

10:23

Speaker 3

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I was going to, particularly on special education needs where there's a really important balance for us. There are absolutely children identified with special educational needs who can go on to thrive, who will, with the right support, be able to make the good level of development. But also, if you're doing a holistic measure of children's development at age five, children on a different developmental pathway will almost by definition, not meet that benchmark at that point. So it's making sure that we strike the balance of supporting those children where that is the right thing for them to do and support, rather than setting an artificial expectation for children where their developmental journey will just look different.

Yeah.

10:23

Speaker 5

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And because you mentioned data, what data do you have and what data do you recognize you need in order to be able to fully provide the support that you would wish to for, for those children, you say you need more of it. What is that?

10:23

Speaker 3

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So in terms of practitioners effectively need to do really good assessments themselves, which isn't so much about national government data. So we need to equip staff, working with families and in early years settings, so they really know how to support children for their next developmental step. At a national level, it is really hard to do valid, reliable, broad, holistic assessments of children in a nationally consistent way. So that is why we have a good level of development at age five. We do need to make sure that we're making best use of the progress at two and a half, and that data is feeding through.

10:24

Speaker 2

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And one of the things we are looking very carefully at is how we can make the most of all of the moments that we have with children throughout that journey. And it's a very live question at the moment in the department. Um, and I also just want to emphasize on this point, if I may, um, the breadth of things that are measured in the good level of development, which I think is really important because it's, it's, it's emotional regulation, it's fine gross motor skills. It's, um, you know, word reading some, some, some number reading and, um, you know, everything that we're doing with more children in early education with the best start family hubs with the national year of reading, all of the things that we are driving towards as a government are around supporting children to have those tools, to be able to have the independence and the, the initial learning ability that they need to be able to thrive at school.

And it matters. It matters because inequalities that embed at that age are so hard to shake. It's the best way of tackling education inequalities to get it right in the earliest years. And I think the the stat that I have here is that children who are not school ready are at 4 to 5 are three times more likely to be not in education, employment or training at 16. So it's it's really significant that we do get this right with this target.

10:25

Speaker 1

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Thank you. I will go to Jody.

10:25

Speaker 6

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Thank you chair. Um, we know that wider challenges around housing insecurity financial um challenge. Uh, limit. The potential to support their children in the early years. Um, and especially around the early development, um, how important are these factors to improving school readiness and narrowing the disadvantage gap?And what cross-government action is being taken already to address it?

10:25

Speaker 2

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I mean, they're really important. All of the factors that you've mentioned there, and I think the, the best thing that I would mention is the, the huge ambition that we have across government to drive down child poverty, um, which, you know, to focus on housing, to focus on, um, you know, things like in education, free school meals, um, uniform costs, um, actually the money that we're saving many families with the childcare expansion, these are, these all make a big difference. Um, the employment rights Act, the increase the minimum wage across government, we need to be raising, um, living standards, helping families with the cost of living and ensuring children have got stable, stable roofs above their heads.

That's the foundation. Um, and I suppose building on that foundation is everything that we're talking about today, which is making sure that there's somewhere in the community where parents can go and get help and support, making sure that there's access to great quality early education and that we get to as many children as possible into that great quality early education, because we know that children who are in early education will definitely have a better chance of getting that good level of development, school readiness. Um, so it is all very important.

Um, Jody, I.

10:26

Speaker 6

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Just.

10:26

Speaker 1

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Briefly on that. So just, I just want to ask about your engagement with other departments. So I've come across in my constituency, um, the most horrendous situations of families living in temporary accommodation with very, very young children where the nature of the accommodation has a direct impact on children's gross motor skills, for example, because there isn't anywhere for them to learn to crawl, there isn't anywhere for them to learn to grab hold of things where there are hazards. Kind of all all about the place.

Um, and that's a desperate situation for any family to be in. Um, has an absolutely fundamental impact on, um, the targets that you have set for child development. Um, I just want to ask about the, the engagement on that issue because we're not seeing, for example, from the government any shift on the local housing allowance rate, which make a really big difference to those issues in, in, in London and other parts of the country hasn't cost very high. Um, what's the kind of movement on that and what representations are you making to other departments about the impact on children?

10:27

Speaker 2

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So if I may just say, I think the we have got this new cross-government inter-ministerial group that formally got established actually not too long ago. We've been meeting informally before then on child poverty. Um, and I think that is proving already to be a really fantastic forum to force this kind of collaboration. We obviously all do it anyway department to department, but it's been really fantastic to have this formal environment in which we're having those conversations. And at the last meeting, we had a great conversation about just this topic of housing and child poverty and the the crucial importance of it.

And I know that Alison McGovern, um, believes passionately in achieving that. And I'm hopeful that the child poverty inter-ministerial group is going to be a great way of ensuring that cross-government collaboration.

10:28

Speaker 1

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10:28

Speaker 6

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Thank you. Uh, we know the disadvantaged gap is established by five. Um, and, um, so what actions do we need to begin earlier than formal education?Um, and what is being done to support children from birth onwards to prevent those gaps widening in the first place?

10:28

Speaker 2

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Yeah. Um, so, so you're right, you're right to, to say beyond early education, but I would just repeat as well, I think that access to early education is, is great for children. And we want to see more children in early education. And we especially want to see more and more children taking up the early learning to entitlement. We want to see more children in early education. I think it's important. Um, I think that, uh, I don't want to repeat what I've said about best start family hubs, but I think that support for families, that non-judgemental non-stigmatizing support the open door for families to be able to get help and support that they need is really, really important.

And what we will be able to signpost people to who come through the door or who the local authority reach out to, will be. If there is a need for any targeted interventions on parenting or the home learning environment, there's menus of evidence based interventions, which local authorities can fund and deliver with those families. That makes a big difference. Um, and I would also say that it's important we recognise the wider context in which we are parenting today. And one of the biggest factors there is screens, um, and the use of screens and the amount of screen time in homes.

It's a good example of where the government has heard parents saying we're struggling with this. Uh, we've gone away. We've produced some really clear guidance about the impact that screens are having on, on children's development and taking a precautionary approach, giving guidance to families and parents to say, actually, children under two shouldn't be on screens. Um, you know, it should be an hour a day for maximum for children above two. And that's just one example of where we're trying to step in, where we see that parents are struggling with something because they're asking us to help, they're asking us for the evidence, they're asking us for guidance.

And so we've stepped in. Now we've got the screen time guidance being rolled out through all of our best start family hubs, through our best start in life online targeted campaigns with parents. And we're also trying to make sure we have got support online for parents as well, which can also be helpful when people don't want to be in a physical space. And there's great advice, great advice available online. And we're continuing to develop our online offer.

10:30

Speaker 6

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Thank you. Um, a little bit more about the funding, the consultation on early years funding, proposed strengthening deprivation supplements by introducing a minimum threshold and clarifying what the purpose and better support for disadvantaged children. Um, access to early education. What further measures do you think government needs to take to ensure that this funding is effectively targeted to those children who need it the most?

10:31

Speaker 2

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So the. Chris will come in some details on the funding consultation in a minute. But let me just say, on the funding consultation, yes, we want. Basically the first objective for that is how can we get disadvantaged funding to the children who need it?And that's one of the first objectives of this consultation, which is why we're asking those questions. The second objective is around how we can improve send funding. And then there's a range of things in there around improving the sort of simplicity and efficiency of, of funding.

Um, but what I just want to say, if I were to be okay to sort of step back and think about where we actually want to end up. When I think about the early education system. Um, it is not how we would design it if we were to start from a blank piece of paper. I don't think any of us would think it is. Um, it is brilliant people working in it, brilliant results, but actually it's developed in such a piecemeal fashion over time with different political takes doing different things.

Um, and what we've decided as a department is actually we need to take a step back at this moment. So we've launched the education Early education and childcare review. Uh, we're getting that underway. And the objective of that review is to take a look at, rather than adding on things piecemeal to a system, which is great, but could be better. We need to decide where the end goal is, and that is what the early education and childcare review is doing at the moment.

Um, because we do want to have a big and holistic look at some of these questions. And so I just wanted to say that because, um, I do think we need to just pause and go rather than more piecemeal. What's the goal?Where are we headed?How can we really deliver the best possible quality of family support and education for all of our children?And we're having those conversations. And, you know, I would also just say, I think it's remarkable really.

We now fund 80% of childcare that's delivered in this country as a government. So we have essentially created a new public service. Um, and it's time, I think, that we really question what that public service should look like. Chris, would you like to add on the funding?

10:33

Speaker 3

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Yes, so to speak, to the specific proposals there, it's probably three steps. So firstly, to update the national funding distribution. So from central government to local government to take account of our best current data on disadvantage to make sure we're giving spreading the money to the right areas in the right way. But then within local supplements, as you say, we're talking quite openly actually at the moment. We've taken quite an enabling approach. Local authorities make different choices on the scale of funding and how they use it.

And we're effectively asking, what have you learned about what works and and particularly about quantum. But then also, are there particular uses of disadvantage funding through that supplement where possibly being slightly less permissive might be helpful?So, for example, around barriers around food costs in settings or transport or funding support for families within settings. This obviously then sits alongside the earliest pupil premium where we've had quite significant increases, 45% and then 15% over the last two consecutive years, where again, there we have lots of work with the Education Endowment Foundation on how do we make sure settings really know how they can use that money to have the most impact on those children and how holistically that is combined with the disadvantage supplement, means that we're doing the right thing for children who need most support.

10:34

Speaker 1

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A consequence of the changes that are proposed in the consultation will be that funding will be redistributed away from local authority areas like mine, my constituency, I suspect, minister, also local authority areas like yours where there is still considerable child poverty and disadvantage, uh, towards areas where there is even greater child poverty and disadvantage. And that obviously gives rise to concerns that areas that are already stretched, stretched where costs are already high, where there are still significant numbers of children living in poverty, will lose out as a consequence of the changes that are proposed.

Um, what can you say about that?And do you think that's really an acceptable way to redistribute funding?

10:35

Speaker 3

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So so the consultation sets out sort of how we would distribute this apart. It doesn't say the size of the pot. So we still have to go through the process of setting rates for the coming year. It it talks about using the best information we currently have on both disadvantage, but also on labour market costs. So updating our assessment of how much it costs to run a setting in each area. One of the things we're also asking about is scale of protection.

So in the past, when governments made changes that involved that sort of redistribution and whatever the size of a pot, there will be relative winners and losers. When you redistribute is how do you smooth that over a number of years?How much do you let any area win or lose to use simple terms over one year period.

10:36

Speaker 1

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Will you be in a position as part of the consultation to be able to. Enable local authorities to see what the consultation actually means for them?It's quite hard to respond to a consultation in a kind of meaningful way. If you don't understand what exactly the implications are.

10:36

Speaker 3

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Illustrative data in the consultation data tables to help with that. Obviously, there are particular decisions about setting next year's rates, which means you won't be able to work out exactly what you would get in a given year, but you'll have a sense of what it would mean in terms of direction of travel.

10:36

Speaker 1

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Thank you. Um, we will go to Darren next. Thank you.

10:37

Speaker 5

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So you rightly pay tribute to the fantastic people working across the early years sector. And the reality, of course, is that one big challenge is recruitment and retention of the workforce. So a couple of questions on this from me. Firstly, how confident are you that that workforce will be able to meet the growing demand for early years provision.

10:37

Speaker 2

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So, um, confident. Um, I think we've seen a huge uptick in the numbers of people working in early education. And if I may just say, it is a great career. Um, it's a really, really rewarding job. And I'd encourage anybody to, to consider it. I think it's 14000 more people working in, in, in the sector this year compared to last year. Um, so, you know, the sector, the market has responded brilliantly to the expansion of entitlements.

There are more places, there are more people working in it, and there are more children in childcare. So, um, I am confident that we will. Yeah.

10:38

Speaker 5

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Can you say a bit more about what those specific actions are that are already leading to that 14000 increase, but also what more you will be doing as a department to get it to the level that it can best meet that demand?

10:38

Speaker 2

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Yeah. So look, I think, um, the first thing I'd say is we run a big camp, we run a big recruitment campaign. It's the do something big campaign, which has been very effective. I think it gets something like, um, 35,000 or 3000 535,000 is the big number that's come out of my brain, 35,000 visits a week, uh, to the website, which is great. Um, I think that, uh, we are also looking at training and routes in and routes through, as I talked about earlier on.

So one of the things I often reflect about when I think about the wonderful staff who worked in my boys nursery, was their absolutely brilliant. Um, and actually they'd make brilliant teachers. And what we want to do is create pathways through so that you can, it's easy to move up from level two, three, six, um, and getting qualified teacher status so that the fantastic staff can really see that pathway of progression. Um, I think, um, you know, I talked earlier as well, you know, it's, it's a harder challenge considering it's largely a private market, but obviously we do want to see, we want, we want to think more broadly about how we can support, um, kind of pay and conditions in the sector more broadly.

Um, that's something that's really important. And one thing I would just reflect on there is that there's very low trade union representation, um, amongst the childcare workforce. And it would be great to see that increase. Do you want to add anything, Chris?

10:39

Speaker 3

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Can you talk a little about what we did during the expansion period?So as well as, as minister said, a national campaign. We also then worked with local areas where we were having particularly acute recruitment challenges, things like facilitating partnerships with local Jobcentre plus, running a locally focused to do something, big events to help support, particularly for young people considering their career options, the benefits of a career in childcare.

10:40

Speaker 5

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How are you measuring the effectiveness of each of those different interventions?Because obviously you will want to, going forward, put most effort into where you get the best bang for buck and the best people out of it. So how are you going about that measuring stuff?

10:40

Speaker 3

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As a minister said?So for the Do Something Big campaign, which has been one of the large public investment has gone. We've both been looking at things like their hits on the website. So 35,000 a week, but also then tracking how they follow through. So we see there's a strong connection between when you do do something big advertising burst through to the campaign website and then through to the find a job platform and seeing people actively looking. Because of the scale of expansion, it's not been possible to then draw that direct line through to an A local area is fine, but I think what we're seeing is that that basket of measures have been able to support the growth.

What we're now looking at is what are we learning in a more steady state environment?What's the right level of investment and the right level of support we're putting in each area?

10:41

Speaker 5

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Did you say you can or can't then track the conversion rate of that initial interest through to engagement through to then a qualified practitioner.

10:41

Speaker 3

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Tracking through to actively seeking jobs. We can't then track them through to whether they end up working in the sector.

10:41

Speaker 5

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That's something you feel you need to do in order to be able to effectively measure it. Or is that just not we're not set up for that at the moment.

10:41

Speaker 3

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Yes.

10:41

Speaker 1

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Well.

10:41

Speaker 2

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No, I would just I would just say I think that my reflection would probably be we want to make sure we get people into the jobs. That's objective number one. And I think we've got the data for that. And then I think objective number two is when they're in the jobs, supporting the training development, um, pathways. And again, I think we, we do have the ways of measuring, measuring that. I don't think you necessarily need it in one big linear.

Data set I.

10:42

Speaker 5

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Just finally, can you say today what the shortfall currently is of the stuff that you need?What's the gap you're looking to plug?

10:42

Speaker 2

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Well.

10:42

Speaker 3

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Yeah, we are not seeing a nationally measurable shortfall. So when we estimated the scale of workforce growth that we would need during the childcare entitlement expansion, we saw that roughly that level of growth. And we're not hearing local sufficiency challenges caused by lack of workforce.

10:43

Speaker 2

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And I think it's 93% of parents get top three choice of of local nursery. So, you know, the market has responded brilliantly to the expansion. There is childcare places, there are obviously pockets where there are challenges with working on those, including through school based nurseries. But but overall, we're very confident and grateful to the sector for responding in the way that it has to deliver this huge expansion. It's actually the case that we've doubled in terms of the entitlements and the government spending.

We've gone from 2023, to, I think it's, I think, 4.5 billion. But we've doubled. Our numbers are probably mangled. I'll correct it afterwards, but we've doubled from 23 to 24 to this year, where we're at nine, £9.5 billion investment. So it's really significant expansion. And the sector has done an amazing job.

10:44

Speaker 5

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That's that's good news on recruitment. Again, just come back to retention. Are you confident that actually you will be that that retention is either slowing down. I mean for for primary secondary school teachers, we've seen the rate of people dropping out of the career slow down, but they are still dropping out. So you need to keep that fresh flow coming in. What are you seeing in early years on retention and being able to combat that challenge?

10:44

Speaker 2

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So Chris can come in with some specifics if he has it on the on the data, on, on the retention. But I would just say this is where everything else that we're doing is really important. So when you're when you're in your, you've got your great job and you've gone in and whatever level you've gone in at, it's making sure that there's the status and recognition. It's making sure that there's the training opportunities. It's making sure that the sector is well supported.

Um, all of these things make a huge difference. I also haven't mentioned, but we probably should mention the consultation we're currently running on early years teachers. Um, so as you know, we're focusing at the moment and first on how we can get these early years teachers into every setting. We're running a consultation at the moment on how we can reform the qualification routes for that, which, um, so that we can perhaps have a unified qualified teacher status so that, you know, the staff who are working in early years settings, who often are just as qualified, but get paid less well, can't go and transition over to working into a school.

So we're looking at all of these questions to raise the status, the standing and the training opportunities for people in the sector. But do you want to come in on retention?

10:45

Speaker 3

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So we're not saying a nationally measurable change in retention in the sector, I think is striking. So the Nfrw for a long time have done annual studies of the school teacher workforce. In the last couple of years. They've run equivalent studies for the early years workforce. And you see some measurable positive elements of working in early years. So they report greater well-being. They report lower workload. I think there are things where you see measurable signs that work in the early years actually has some benefits over working in other education sectors.

10:46

Speaker 1

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Thank you very much. We'll go to Caroline next. Thank you. Hello.

10:46

Speaker 6

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Heard that volatility in the early years pupil premium funding can undermine the ability of providers to plan and deliver sustained interventions for disadvantaged children. So based on the department's evidence and evaluation of the policy, what is your assessment of the early years pupil premium as a mechanism for improving outcomes for disadvantaged children and narrowing the attainment gap?

10:47

Speaker 2

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Mhm. So, um, let me say first of all, on early years pupil premium, I'm really pleased that we've been able to raise it so significantly. And I think that is really important. Um, it's now at, I think £655 per year per child. So it makes a real and meaningful difference to the setting. And we are seeing also an increase in people claiming it, which is really good. Um, I think we've, we've managed to, uh. Raise the funding level significantly.

And now what we're focusing on is the, is the impact of it and making sure that that is as good as it possibly can be. So we're working with the EEF, um, to in ten areas, run a test and learn approach to the delivery and the mechanisms around, um, the early years pupil premium to see if there are different ways that we should be doing it. I think that's the right thing to be doing. We've also got much more active in terms of publishing guidance and saying what should be happening.

Um, with the early years pupil premium. And of course, there's wider changes that we've been making in terms of local authorities to ensure that as much money as possible is getting to the settings. So we've changed the pass through rate. And there are other things that we're doing as well. Chris, I'll hand over to.

10:48

Speaker 3

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You. As we talked earlier, I think as seeing the earliest pupil premium in context of being alongside disadvantaged funding, which is not child led in the same way and therefore is more stable, I think the value of a child led intervention Is more stable. I think the value of a child led intervention at the earliest pupil premium. Is it very consciously focuses spend on that child, which is why we've been working really closely with the Education Endowment Foundation to make sure we're equipping settings with the understanding of what they can do with that money to have the most difference on those children.

10:49

Speaker 6

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Okay, so you don't have any plans to move away from the attendance linked IPP funding so that. Settings have a sort of longer term stability over how much funding they're they're going to get. You know, this time next year.

10:49

Speaker 3

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So the intention is, as with schools, to maintain that blend of a child led pupil, premium, early pupil premium as well as cohort level disadvantage funding, which is which is a more steady state and less tied to the individual children on that particular year.

10:49

Speaker 6

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Okay.

10:49

Speaker 1

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Can I just highlight a kind of obvious contradiction with that approach, which is so children are in early years settings for a much, much, much smaller amount of times than they are shorter amount of times than they are in school for the child led component linked to attendance. Just has I mean, I think it makes it very difficult for child led support to be obtained and put in place in a way that is compatible with the department's objectives around boosting expertise in settings overall and maintaining better stability and retention in the workforce.

Because it's impossible for settings to plan. So it lends itself to bringing in an extra most. Junior assistant to support a particular child on a very short term contract, rather than. How is a setting boosting their expertise overall in meeting the needs of children with disadvantage with send with, you know, all of those things. And that's the problem that settings are grappling with, which is just it's just very different to school. It's not it's not the same type of behaviour that happens.

10:50

Speaker 2

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Do you want to come in first and I will, Chris.

10:50

Speaker 3

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I was going to say I think on its own it's just absolutely not sufficient. And I think one of the key things for us is to make sure that the other interventions to support, for example, the new teacher retention payments, where you're aiming to say all settings in this area who employ a qualified teacher. That teacher will receive a payment. So that is not tied to the fluctuating cohort of the individual setting and making sure those interventions do have that sustainability. I think there is something about a child tied payment that makes it really clear.

You're right, it does have an influence on the ways in which it can be spent. But the EFF's work suggests there are all sorts of valuable ways that can be spent in a way that with that quantum of funding for that child for that period can add real value.

10:51

Speaker 2

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Yeah. And I would just add, I agree with everything Chris has said. I would just add, um. Just to point, I would point again to what we're doing with the early education and childcare review. Um, and say that, you know, these are very valid questions. Obviously, we're doing everything we're doing with the EIF to try and explore the best ways to maximise it. But with the early education and childcare review, we are thinking very big picture terms about what how we would need to change the system and what the system would need to look like in its ideal end state.

And these are questions which I'll be very much part of when we're thinking about what the ideal end state is, we should be doing differently. And so it'll be very useful to, to see and hear the committee's reflections on that as we as we do that review. I would also just mention the interaction with the send reforms, um, which I think are important in this space when, especially when you're mentioning staff pay to support particular children, for example, because obviously there is now much more upfront funding for early years settings through the inclusive Mainstream fund, there is also access to experts at hand.

Um, in those settings as well. So this will also change that environment to.

10:52

Speaker 1

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Thank you. We'll go to Jodie.

10:52

Speaker 7

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Thank you. Um, obviously high quality um trained. Workforce is key to children's outcomes and successful outcomes. What is the department doing to ensure that early years professionals have got access to the training and professional development that they need, particularly in areas such as child development, speech and language safeguarding and special educational needs?

10:52

Speaker 2

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So, um, special. Occasional needs. Uh, there's a £200 million fund that we announced recently as part of our, um. Uh, reforms, which, which early education will have a good chunk of which will be developing specific training, um, and support for settings and staff. One of my reflections, um, there's a wonderful organisation called Dingley's promise and one of, they, they actually do run some of their, their own training. And one of the things that they told me through the training that they run is that actually so much of the delivery of the sufficiency of places in early years, settings for children with special educational needs is a confidence question.

So, um, if once you've improved the training and supported staff to be able to support children with special educational needs, you see a huge benefit in terms of the number of places that then other settings are providing, which is, which is important. Um, you mentioned safeguarding. Um, we are developing and have developed lots of, there's additional new safeguarding training that we've got online recently, especially around safe sleep, which is such a critical issue. Um, and run a variety of different training programmes on safeguarding.

And I think, um, you know, we've got NPCs at various points for early years teachers. So there is a really broad training offer. Um, and as I mentioned earlier on, there is, there are really clear pathways to, we want to create more pathways to support training and progression in the workplace.

10:54

Speaker 3

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Where I was going to pick up. So one of the other elements of the earliest teachers consultation at at the moment is whether we should in the same way as we do for school teachers have a core body of knowledge, of professional body of knowledge. That is the same for every earliest teacher training. In the same way as we have a content framework for school teacher training, uh, and that being the beginning of setting that as a core body of knowledge that features into all of the entry level qualifications.

So starting with earliest teachers, but then thinking how you sort of take that golden thread of the practice that the evidence tells us will be most effective through the different entry level qualifications in the sector.

10:54

Speaker 7

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So to build on that, um, from working in the sector, one of the problems with delivering training is the time capacity, especially when you're working in the model where you're paid by the hour, um, and how you can then free staff up to access that training. Is there any assessment been done on the capacity of the sector to actually engage with the training?

10:54

Speaker 3

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It's been one of the challenges that, uh, everyone working with early settings has faced some of the stronger practice hubs, for example, which have been working for the last two years. And we have just doubled the number with a further cohort starting in September, have been thinking really carefully. And there are different models. They find work depending on the nature of the training and depending on the nature of the setting. So for example, lots of them have worked out that they can best engage with childminders, either on certain days of the week or at certain times of day, and have thought really carefully about how to design that in a way that works for childminders and their patterns.

I think the other area for formal learning we've seen is the real value of the apprenticeship model, where it actually allows time and setting. And if the earliest teacher degree apprenticeship, for example, release time that is funded to ensure that you can both get that dedicated focus time on learning and put that learning in practice in the setting.

10:55

Speaker 7

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Thank you. I'm sorry. It's right at the top of the page. Um, so the government has announced plans to phase out the early years teacher status and to replace it with sheets with qualified teacher status. What additional support could you be giving to nurseries to allow them to employ qualified teachers at similar levels of pay and conditions to those in schools?

10:56

Speaker 2

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So um, so, so, so we're consulting on, on that proposal at the moment. And we do want to hear views from people about it. Um, uh, but, uh, part of that is the kind of the drive behind it is around trying to support that, um, status pay conditions point, which I think is very important because, um, early years teachers are doing just as brilliant a job as teachers in, in school settings and deserve the same recognition and status. I think also, as Chris said, um, the key points there are around the kind of central body of knowledge is really important.

We take our role very seriously as kind of as looking at the range of qualifications. And we do want to make sure that, um, they're streamlined and that there is strong and clear as they should be to ensure that we've got the best quality staff as possible in settings. But Chris, do you want to add to that?

10:56

Speaker 3

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I think the other thing I'd highlight would be the earliest teacher recognition payment, which is effectively starting that or restarting, I should say that expectation that an earliest teacher is a role. That's a professional role that requires skill. And with that comes greater pay. So for 4500 pounds payment for those teachers receiving that payment, and that being the start, we will never have exactly the same terms and conditions, not least the nature of provision is quite different. And one of the things you might presume, for example, lays behind that.

And for finding about workload and wellbeing, for setting this open all year round. You don't get summer holidays in the way you would in school, but on the flip side, you're able to take annual leave in a slightly more flexible way. And so there will never be an identical experience to work in each setting or things like the teacher recognition payment aim to do is to start to make it a greater parity between the two.

10:57

Speaker 1

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Thank you very much. So we'll go to Caroline next.

10:57

Speaker 6

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Thank you chair. Um, so I'd like to move on to safeguarding now. Um so we've heard concerns about an operational gap between the statutory intent of safeguarding and what's happening in the real world, real world practice. So things like concerns being raised, um, and not taken seriously, staff concerns being raised, not taken seriously, high turnover of staff, leading to practitioners who might lack experience or training. Um, and also the ratio, the higher ratio of um children to. Staff.

So what assessment has your department made of the consistency and quality of safeguarding guidance followed in practice. And what enforcement action have you taken in response?

10:58

Speaker 2

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Okay, great. Thank you. Such a critical question. Um, and I first of all, I would just say, um, I'd say a. Couple of things. So first is that the vast majority of settings do a brilliant job of keeping children safe. And it's really important to say they go above and beyond to make sure that their provision is, is as good as it should be. Um, the second thing I would say is, um, I don't, I don't want to abdicate responsibility as government for our role in making sure that we're always doing everything we possibly can in terms of statute and guidance, because that is on us.

And that's why we have been making changes to, you know, strengthen the IFAs again, from this September. You know, there's changes around safe asleep around Banbury. There's various different things that we're doing. We've got to continually make sure that we are doing everything possible as a government to make sure statute and guidance is as is as strong and clear as it should be. I think it's also our responsibility with Ofsted, and we've made significant progress in this regard recently to make sure um, that we where there are concerns, um uh, that they are acted upon.

So we've recently announced additional funding for Ofsted, which is going to mean that we can have 3000 unannounced inspections. That's a direct response to some of the families that I've been speaking to in particularly John and Katie. Meehan's parents who, who, who want to see the ability for Ofsted, where there are concerns, where parents have raised concerns that Ofsted can get their unannounced and check it out and give parents that reassurance that the setting is doing what it should be doing. It's why we're I've talked about chain regulation.

It's why we're giving Ofsted more funding to have more inspectors. It's why we're giving Ofsted more funding to develop some of the families from the terrible case. Um one of the terrible cases recently with Vincent Chan have been talked to me about needing a better system for parents to be able to raise concerns and to see those concerns acted upon. So we're doing that through funding Ofsted to improve their communications. We're doing that through work that we're that we're doing to kind of give parents greater clarity about what to do if they've got concerns, who to raise it with.

Um, we're doing it through making off, said the whistleblowing body. Um early years staff so that there's complete clarity for staff. If they've got a concern, they raise it with complete clarity that they're going to be able to resource to make sure it's dealt with. So, so right the way across the board, we've got to pull every lever available to us. We're trying to do that. And then of course, you know, it is also, as I said at the outset, it's about a culture.

Um, because you're right, statute and guidance alone doesn't achieve it. It has to be the strongest possible safeguarding culture in every setting. Staff who know that if they've got any concerns at all, where they go, how to raise it, how to deal with it, chains who know exactly what their practices are, exactly what their processes are, with strong oversight from Ofsted parents who know what to do if they're worried about a situation with their children, and have the confidence to know that that's going to be dealt with.

So, um, this is a critical issue, one that we take extremely seriously. And it is the foundation of everything that we're doing.

11:01

Speaker 6

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How would a parent contact Ofsted if they had a concern?Is there a sort of hotline or something?Do parents know about it?

11:01

Speaker 2

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So so at the moment the the process that we would advise a parent to follow, uh, if they have concerns in the setting is complain to the setting, then there is a process through which they can report to Ofsted. And there is also if it's a concern about an individual child to the to the ladder in the local authority, um, we are committed to improving that process. I think that's what I'm saying. So we've got this additional money for Ofsted. It's something that we're working on very hard at the moment to kind of create that transparency in the system so that that all parents really know it and also can see, can see transparently what's happening in their setting when they're making judgements about where to send their child.

Do you want to add, Chris?

11:02

Speaker 3

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So I think this is one of the things we recognise needs to be clearer, so clearer for a parent. When is the right time to move beyond the conversation with your own setting, to raise that concern more widely and to give parents that sort of information so they understand that's absolutely the right thing to do. If you're worried about your child or other children in that setting, okay.

11:02

Speaker 6

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Thank you. Um, so DBS checks, um, they only provide a point in time assessment. So what will the department do to improve the sharing of safeguarding information and references when staff move between settings?And what consideration has it given to introducing more robust and continuous monitoring arrangements to better protect children?

11:03

Speaker 2

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Yeah. So on DBS checks, you know, we continually work with the Home Office and the disclosure and Barring service to make sure that they're working in their fit for purpose. We've also, um, made changes to what we expect in terms of the collection of references, um, in terms of, um, you know. Notifying us if you're employing family on domestic premises, there are a range of different things that we've done to kind of strengthen the expectations in terms of what must be asked of staff that you're employing.

Um, and I think that's really critical that Chris, do you want to add?

11:03

Speaker 3

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So the changes were made to the earliest foundation stage last September that looked at making much clearer the expectation about references. So that must be taken a much clearer expectations about the sorts of references, what you should be looking for when you're and an expectation they are given by earlier settings, which is equally as important as them being taken. We're looking. If there's more we can do, particularly there have been cases recently where people have felt they weren't obliged to disclose things that hadn't yet come to trial and were being more explicit that that needs to be disclosed when you start employment.

11:04

Speaker 6

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Okay. Um, so you've you've mentioned some of these already, but following the recent safeguarding failures, could you tell us whether the department is going to review whether additional measures such as CCTV, CCTV coverage and a two person rule for intimate care are needed in early years settings to strengthen child protection?And could you just tell us what your current position is on these measures, and what evidence has informed that?

11:04

Speaker 2

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So actively considering on both?Um and as I said, I think our position and all of these things, as we will do whatever is necessary to keep children safe. So we are actively considering on both of those questions on CCTV. Typically, um, you'll be aware we've had an independent panel looking at this question. Um, uh, I look forward to receiving the final report. Um, from that panel. I think what's clear to me from conversations with parents is that the value that they see in CCTV is, um.

Not just prevention where it can play an important role, but also in confidence and in prosecution, which I think is very important. Um, it is obviously a very complex area. Um, in terms of the question of mandation of CCTV, because there are many different types of settings. There are some forest school settings, for example. So there are challenges with how you think about this policy question. Um, but we are extremely aware of the calls from many parents on this, on this front and considering it very seriously.

11:05

Speaker 6

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And just lastly, safe sleep is a crucial aspect of infant safeguarding. How confident are you that early years staff receive sufficient training on safe sleep practices, and what action has the department taken to ensure that this training is consistent across settings?

11:05

Speaker 2

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Yeah, look, and, um, I really just I do want to pay tribute again to John and Katie, Gigi's parents, for their brilliant campaigning on this. And, uh, they have the bravery, courage, they have just been phenomenal. And it's been a huge privilege to work with them on this question of safe sleep. So, uh, we've done several things. We have written, so we are updating the Eyfs from September to make extremely clear that all settings must be following the NHS guidance on safe sleep.

This was previously linked to in the guidance, but we felt that we should clarify extremely clearly that that must be what's happening. And I wrote to all settings to tell them that that change was coming and what was. Concerning was the number of queries that we had back to that. Um, and it showed the importance of making this change and the importance of us being very front footed in making sure people are doing it. We've been able to get Ofsted to inspect a safe sleep practice.

John and Katie came to meet Sir Martin with me, and delighted that Sir Martin's agreed to do that. Um, we've been clear about what a safe sleep cot is. Um, some new guidance to sectors to the sector recently on this, saying that it must be a cot, it must follow British safety standards and then also on training. Uh, so we're developing a toolkit with the Lullaby Trust at the moment. We've also published additional training. Um it's also a critical component of the compulsory training as well.

11:07

Speaker 3

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And are currently commissioning an expert produce something to go as part of the department's suite of free online child development training. So there's a really clear online offer.

11:07

Speaker 6

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11:07

Speaker 1

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On just on the issue of safe sleep. So every parent is told. How to put your baby to sleep safely and what the kind of really clear requirements are that make for safe sleeping environment. Do you have any idea how we got into such a mess in the early years?In early years settings on this, where that, you know, children, as we know from, um, the. The, um, information that's been widely reported being put to sleep in tents, overly constrained with beanbags being swaddled, being covered in far too many coverings and sleeping bags.

I mean, it just, it seems that, you know, many staff who. Work in early years, even without training, are themselves parents who would have received that guidance about safe sleep. And yet, it seems like many parts of the sector have drifted really far away from something that is absolutely basic to safeguarding in the early years. Do you do you understand how the sector has got itself into that mess?

11:08

Speaker 2

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Yes, I would, I would. Say I think many, many is, is, is too far in terms of I think that the vast majority of settings are doing it right and keeping children very safe when they're sleeping. Um, and I think that's important to say, I think that some of the examples that you've mentioned there, the horrendous things that have happened, some of the children in settings that we've read about in the news and heard about are individual examples of abuse and mistreatment and terrible malpractice. Um, but there is a very serious question about making sure that all of the other staff who are trying to do their best by children have the very best training and awareness.

That is about the culture that we talked about the safeguarding culture in every nursery and early years setting, to make sure that those expectations are clear. And and that's what we're trying to address through the package of measures that I've talked about today, I.

11:09

Speaker 1

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The surprising thing about some of the individual examples is that there is a difference between some of the horrific cases that have have come to trial around abuse in nursery settings, where it clearly was an individual seeking to do things covertly to a child, and something with regard to sleep practices that clearly happens for all to see in a room that is observed where there are other professionals around. And from what you have said about the number of queries coming back, when you strengthen to strengthen the guidance, it would seem that there is a problem in this area, and I accept what you said about the steps that are being taken to to close that gap, but I think it is of concern to parents as to how that we kind of got to a situation where there is such variation from something that is, you know, such a kind of essential safety requirement.

11:09

Speaker 2

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I accept that it's a concern. Absolutely. I, you know, and I would just I would just say, again, that's why, you know, there are going to be looking at it. It's why we're boosting the training. It's why we're being extremely clear with the expectations that we have of settings. Um, and, and, you know, absolutely no setting should be taking any risks at all when it comes to keeping children safe when they're sleeping. And I'm confident through the package of measures that we're doing and the huge willingness of the sector to get this right, that will sort the problem.

11:09

Speaker 1

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Thank you. We'll go to Serena next.

11:10

Speaker 4

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Thank you. Chair, we've received evidence highlighting growing concerns in some, um, large multi-site nursery groups regarding governance and quality assurance. So what progress has the department made with Ofsted about ensuring appropriate accountability and oversight for large chain nursery groups?

11:10

Speaker 2

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Uh, so um this. Is something which we've been working on with Ofsted recently and I think um we will be setting out, uh, measures soon to outline how we are going to support Ofsted to have that um function across a whole of a, of a chain. I think it's very important, um because um, you know, you have to have the ability to be able to deal with things at a, at a, at a, at a national or multi-chain. Level. And so we will be setting out details on that soon.

I don't know if you want to add anything to that.

11:10

Speaker 3

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Chris. I think what our work has uncovered is effectively, this was a regulatory framework built for a very different system, designed at a point where there are far fewer larger groups, but also now at a point where group structures are quite complex. So actually Ofsted don't register an entire group necessarily. In lots of cases. Actually, what we would understand as a chain of group is a collection of entities that have been registered separately, often if they've been acquired by a wider group.

And so the work has been sort of teasing through the complexity of the current system and working out what are the right steps to change the framework to enable Ofsted to see properly across the group, to be transparent with parents, actually about what settings are like across the group and then what the powers they need to take to act at group level.

11:11

Speaker 4

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Okay. Could that involve legislation?Because we've heard from Ofsted that it will need legislative changes to ensure that they have that oversight, rather than local individual settings?

11:11

Speaker 2

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So I think I think it depends on the exact model that we set out, but it's possible.

11:11

Speaker 3

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Working really closely with Ofsted on exactly what the right model is and therefore what primary or secondary legislative change you'd need to enact it.

11:12

Speaker 4

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We've heard um, heartbreaking. Evidence from parents that have been affected by awful safeguarding concerns in a. And they told us in a private round table that they want to see an independent system for raising concerns and complaint run by a new regulatory body established because they've lost faith in the current system, including Ofsted. How do you respond to those concerns, and do you believe that there is a case for an independent early safeguarding, accountability and complaints body?

11:12

Speaker 2

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So, um, I think I've had the same conversations with the same people who again, I just the, the, the experiences of their children unthinkable and the bravery that they show in advocating for changes. Remarkable. Um, I, uh, I do recognise the importance of what they are describing and discussing in terms of the ability, as I said earlier, on the ability for a parent to, uh, feel. Like they can see transparently where they have concerns that how they're acted upon and how that all gets dealt with.

That is what we are doing through the additional funding that we have given to Ofsted, um, to. Improve, uh, all of their systems and processes. It is also what we are doing as a department to improve the transparency. And we want this to become a. Essentially what they are asking for is what we are trying to create, because we do agree that parents need that ability in that process to do it. And I would say, I think, Chris, you're taking some of the families next week to Manchester to see Ofsted, to actually to to understand the back end to, to see how we might design that programme.

So we want to work with these families to create this system. Um, because we recognise that there does need to be more transparency and accountability and a way that parents can engage in the system. Do you want to add, Chris.

11:13

Speaker 3

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It has been a real privilege to work with these families and they are have been incredibly impressive actually, at taking their personal experiences and being very systemic about how their experience, their children's experiences might improve the system. So, as the minister mentioned next week, I'm going with them and the Chief Inspector to talk about actually how often the systems currently work and to actually have them challenge it. This is how it felt from our perspective. This is how we would want the system to work so that the resources we've given Ofsted can be used to make the system achieving the objectives they want to achieve.

11:14

Speaker 1

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We'd certainly agree with what you've said about the parents and they're really thoughtful and um, very dignified and gracious approach to, to seeking reform in, in this area. Um, one of the things that I've encountered as a constituency MP is the great alarm that parents experience when there is an abuse scandal or conviction at another nursery within the same chain. And I've seen really terrible practice from chains with regard to communicating with families who have children at other nurseries when something like that happens. So parents in my constituency left to read about things in the media without any communication or reassurance of any meaningful nature happening from the chain to those families who are paying them money to look after their children and trusting their children into their care.

Um, would you consider strengthening the communication requirements on chain nurseries?Um, with regard to parental confidence and a requirement to demonstrate that where something completely unacceptable has happened, they are taking action across the whole of their, chain to make sure that that, that such things are not happening in any other setting and that they're required to give parents confidence about that.

11:15

Speaker 2

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And I think the practice you've described is completely unacceptable. It shouldn't be happening. And the chains should be taking every effort to talk to parents, to communicate with parents. And, you know, that should be happening. So I think the answer to your question is absolutely. We'll consider that. I think it's a really good suggestion. Um, as part of the wider um, measures that. We're taking with Ofsted in this new system that we're creating in addition to the, the powers that we intend to give Ofsted in terms of chain regulation.

I'm very happy to take that suggestion away and report back to you on how we fed it into our plans.

11:16

Speaker 1

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Thank you very much. Appreciate that. Um, we'll go to Darren next.

11:16

Speaker 8

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Um.

11:16

Speaker 5

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The 30 hours, um a lot of the stats have shown that actually, yes, the price of childcare to families has come down significantly in the last two years. Um, but we are also hearing that beyond those 30 hours, many parents who need to top up to 50 hours a week, that's costing them £150 a week. Obviously, it's for 38 weeks. So if they have to then go full time out of term time, it's costs are hitting £370 a week and so on. So what we've heard is that the biggest challenge is still affordability.

Um so it's really just to get your context on that, you know, if, if we are finding that this is still discouraging some parents, particularly mothers, from entering the workforce, then to what extent do you consider the policy to have. Yes, reduced childcare costs, but also made a meaningful difference to those employment decisions, I know was partly behind the government's policy.

11:17

Speaker 2

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So I think, um, it has saved working families a significant amount of money. Uh, you know, £8,000 a year is, is really significant and is making a big difference. It's also has labour market impacts. There are more people in work as a consequence. That's massively positive. Um, that's massively positive. I would um agree with you that there are obviously there are, of course there are still expenses. It's, you know, there are still things that parents are having to pay for that can be tough, but I probably would challenge a little bit and say as well, it is also the challenges that we also face are around who can access, um, hours and time in the setting as well.

So actually, um, you know, we want to be able to encourage more of the children currently entitled to the early learning to entitlement to get into settings. Um, I'm conscious there are children who don't have eligibility currently for the working parent entitlement who would hugely benefit. So these are some of the questions that we're looking at in our early education and childcare review, um, to make sure that we're helping parents with money, but also ensuring that we've got that real focus on supporting the children who we want to support to get that good level of development as well.

11:18

Speaker 8

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11:18

Speaker 5

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Looking to respond to some?Of those challenges that parents have reported to us as witnesses?And of course, that will come out in the final report. But what I'm not asking you to announce government policy on the hoof. Is it something you're aware of?Is it something you acknowledge that there are still some challenges there for particular groups?

11:18

Speaker 2

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Of course, of course I acknowledge. Of course I acknowledge the challenges. Um, you know, we we're very proud of delivering the expansion, the working parent entitlement. We're very proud of it. We inherited a basically a pledge with no plan for delivery and no money from the previous government. And I'm very proud we've been able to keep that promise to parents and make it happen. Um, but of course, we're aware of the very many challenges with the current system.

And I think, as I've said earlier on, I don't think anybody would design it as it currently is and the number of different ways in which you can access funding or entitlements is mind bogglingly mind bogglingly complicated for me. And I spend all of my time talking and thinking about it, let alone for parents. So the system is, is, is, is imperfect. It's delivering fantastic results for parents. We're very proud of it, but we do want to have a holistic look at where we want this system to be.

Because as I said earlier on, we have essentially created a new public service. We're funding 80% of child care that happens in this country. We've got to ask the big questions now. We've made huge progress this year with our strategy. Now's the right time to ask the big questions about where are we headed and all of those questions that you're rightly raising will be a part of that consideration.

11:20

Speaker 1

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Thank you very much. We'll go to Serena or. Or is it Mark?16.

11:20

Speaker 9

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Yes, if you could. No problem. I know Serena has to go, so I'm going to step in and ask her a question. Thank you so much for your answers so far, Minister. Um, I'm going to ask you this broad question and then the chair's got a follow up on something that's been announced today. And hopefully it'll become clear as I ask the question. So research by the Sutton Trust suggests that the poorest families receive little, if any, direct benefit from the 30 hours funded entitlement.

Have you considered changing the working parent requirement or moving towards a universal child care entitlement?And what assessment has a. Has the Department made of the potential benefits or drawbacks of these approaches, particularly for disadvantaged children and families?I hope you'll appreciate why we're asking that question.

11:21

Speaker 2

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No, I do, of course, and I think it's I don't want to repeat myself as a similar answer to the one I've just given to to Darren. Um, we are very aware of where there are children who can't access hours, who in an ideal world, you would want to be able to access hours. Um, and, uh, we are through the early education and childcare review, um, asking all the big questions, um, and, and wanting to set out what that end destination is. I think some of the things that we're thinking about through that review, some of the themes that you would really want to see in a new system are around.

Access, of course, but around quality of education, around integration with family services. Um, and there are lots of questions that you need to consider as you think about where your end goal is. Um, but we are rightly, I think, engaged in those questions.

11:22

Speaker 9

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Okay. How does the department then reconcile prioritizing funding for the 30 hours entitlement with the government's wider commitments on child poverty then, um, and narrowing the disadvantage gap, particularly when the children most in need are least likely to benefit from this entitlement as it stands.

11:22

Speaker 2

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So, as I said, we're, we're, we're proud to have been able to take a promise from the last government that just didn't have any substance delivery plan behind it and to roll it out, to keep that, to keep that promise to parents. And it has made a huge important difference to supporting families with the cost of living and supporting families into the workplace. I'm proud of it. I think it's great and it's had a huge transformational impact. More children than ever before in early education, we've had a huge expansion in the sector and it's been really fantastic.

Um, we are committed to driving down child poverty, as you say. Um, we are, uh, taking lots of steps to do that. The two child limit, the various action that we're taking across the board to make that happen. And of course, in the early education system, we are taking active steps, increasing the early years pupil premium, ensuring that we're getting provision into disadvantaged areas, early years, teachers into disadvantaged areas. Everything we are doing is around trying to ensure that the children who would most benefit are able to benefit.

And of course, on the wider question, that's what our early education and childcare review is really considering carefully.

11:23

Speaker 9

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Yeah, of course, I should have declared an interest as somebody who's taking full advantage of the 30 hours. Free childcare is fantastic and it is fantastic. It's finally funded. Chair, I think you.

11:24

Speaker 1

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Had a. follow up on that. So I was just going to ask if it's okay. Um, while we are in this session, the Secretary of State has made a speech in Oxford in which she has said that she believes the entitlement should be extended to cover all children. I mean, firstly, we just have to put on record that it's terribly poor practice for the Secretary of State to be making such a statement. While active scrutiny of the government's work in this area is is underway this morning.

Um, I think it puts you in an awkward position, Minister, but I suppose the question that we want to ask is, who is that speech for?Is it a policy announcement?Can parents of disadvantaged children who aren't working at the moment take comfort from, um, the speech that there is going to be a change in the entitlement?Is it a public row between the DfE and the Treasury?What is going on there that there is appears to be the government speculating about itself in the public domain this morning about the entitlement to early years funding.

11:25

Speaker 2

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So, um. Thanks, chair. Look, I would say, uh, Bridget and I have been working closely together on the early Education and Childcare review because I think we both agree, as I've said today, that the system, we wouldn't design it as it is, and we want to have big thoughts about where it should be. And I think that's the spirit in which she's making her contribution later today in Oxford. Um, and I think, of course, you know, I've said as much today, you know, there are obviously parts of the system which don't work as we want them to work.

There are obviously children who can't access the system, who in an ideal world, you would have accessing the system. And we really do want to instead of adding bit by bit, little things onto the system in a way that creates a really confused, complicated system. Ask the big questions about where the system is headed.

11:26

Speaker 1

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You'll understand. Earlier this week, you launched a consultation, a formal consultation on funding for the early years that contains nothing about a change in entitlements. And now we have two days later, Secretary of State, making a speech that is about changing entitlements. Is that in any way, an acceptable way for the government to go about making policy.

11:26

Speaker 6

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11:26

Speaker 2

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I think what I would say is that I think it is important that we set that long term direction and ambition, because we don't want to keep making piecemeal changes. The greatest.

11:26

Speaker 1

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Respect Secretary of State could have done that in launching the consultation at the beginning of the week. Why have we got the government saying one thing on a Tuesday and another thing on a Wednesday?It's extraordinary.

11:26

Speaker 2

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I think, you know, the Secretary of State is setting out her ambition for where she would like to see the system. I think it's right that we have an ambition for where we want to see the system go and the future, um, of course, um, you know, we need to make sure that the policy decisions that we're taking in the meantime, drive towards that long term ambition. And that is what we're trying to do through the early education and childcare review.

11:27

Speaker 1

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Parents should take from the speech today that the government is. Trying to push itself to go further on this. I mean, we are really struggling to understand what this intervention is about today.

11:27

Speaker 2

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I understand I would want parents to hear from my contributions today and from what the Secretary of State intends to, to say later, that we are hugely ambitious. Um, for for the early education and childcare system in our country. We've established the early Education and Childcare review because we want to ask these big questions, because we know that we have an imperfect system and because we know that we want the best possible outcome for every child in our country.

11:27

Speaker 1

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11:27

Speaker 6

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A quick. Um, so there's a lot of talk about the first 1000 days of a child's life. We're going to see a private member's bill coming in that those years are absolutely crucial and that you can possibly even predict who's going to become a neat at 16 or 18 by what's happening between 0 and 5. Right?So so we know that early years are absolutely crucial. What I'm interested in hearing from you is we parents who go to work get much more childcare offered to them than the poorest parents who are not in work.

And some would say that those children are the children who most need the support and the guidance of trained professionals so that they get a different kind of stimulus and input, um, that they might be getting at home. Is your, are your policies guided by providing the best early years education for the children who most need it to close the disadvantage gap?Or are they driven by getting women back to work?Um, to try and grow the economy?

11:28

Speaker 2

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Well, that's the, um, that's the crucial crux of all questions about the early education system, to be honest. Um, and I think that you have to be able to do both. I think that what.

11:29

Speaker 6

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Do you think is most important?What do you think the priority should be?Is it the children or is it giving parents free childcare so they can go back to work?

11:29

Speaker 2

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So you have to be able to do both. Both are important, and I believe passionately that getting women into work, um, is a huge benefit for them, for their children, for the economy. And that's a wonderful thing. Um, you know, I think, you know, childcare should be seen as infrastructure. It's important, it's massively beneficial to be able to, to do that. Um, but, but obviously in my job, I care about child outcomes, I care about child development and I care about the quality of education, I care about school readiness.

And we've got this target on the good level of development. And I think that's the right thing for us to focus on across the board, to make sure that we're doing everything possible to get the best possible quality of early education and family support for all of our children so that we can tackle disadvantage and get every child ready for school.

11:30

Speaker 1

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11:30

Speaker 9

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Yeah, no thank you. And so notwithstanding that, I agree with the comments that were just made by my colleague and also, um, taking into account the answers you've already given to the chair in her follow up questions to my previous one, is the Secretary of State going to set out how this policy will be paid for today?

11:30

Speaker 2

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Um, so the Secretary of State, I think, is talking about her personal ambition. Um, and she's talking in broad terms about the future that she sees for the system. Uh, we are obviously working through the early education and childcare review on these big questions. And it would be through that process, um, that, that we would be able to set out further detail as a government.

11:30

Speaker 9

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Is there any time frame in mind?

11:30

Speaker 2

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Um, I think the, the, the process of the early education and childcare review is a, a year multi-year process. We will work on that as quickly as we can. I can't be specific, I'm afraid, but it is through that process. I would expect that those kinds of decisions would be taken.

11:31

Speaker 9

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Okay. I'll follow that closely and I'll move on to my next question then, which is a lot of the evidence that we've received during the course of this inquiry has said that there are certain children, certain parents that are unable to access childcare, and one that came up repeatedly in multiple pieces of evidence was that children were send a really struggling to access childcare, depending on where they are in the country. So what what assessment is your department made of that?And what are you going to do about it?

11:31

Speaker 2

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I'm really worried about this. Um, it's something that I've picked up a lot, um, with parents that I've, I've spoken to. And I also worry, uh, that it, that we need to understand more about the problem because I don't think the data that we have is sufficient to understand where there is a challenge, because essentially what's happening is there are parents with children with special educational needs. Who, who, who, who just cannot get a place or do not even try because they just don't think it's going to be possible for their child to have a place in a setting.

Um, and we really want to solve that. I've heard some awful examples of parents who have said to me, like, the only way I could get access to my, my, my 15 hours was if I stayed with my child the whole time. You know, that's unacceptable. Um, and so this is where, um, we're doing some work. It was in our consultation, our send consultation on what more we need to do in this area. And we're working very hard on trying to resolve those questions.

Um, so that we can get the data and the evidence and the support that we need. That's why our training package matters. Because as I said earlier on, if, um, if the evidence shows that if staff have the training, it massively increases confidence and it does increase the number of places provided. It's also why the simplification of the, um, the Senate and the DAF, um, as well as the, uh, early years, inclusive, inclusive early Years fund, additional inclusive funding that we're putting into early years now matter so that there is the money there.

And it's also why experts at hands matters. And of course, it's also important to note that the huge £3.67 billion capital investment from our reforms will also go into, um, into the early years, which can help with this challenge too. And I would also just mention the best start inclusion practitioners who will be working out of every hub whose job it is going to be to support those families where they're struggling with, whether that's finding a place or whether that's navigating the system to make sure that those families get the help and support that they need.

11:33

Speaker 9

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Yeah. So you've talked about the multifaceted approach there towards solving this problem for families who are struggling to access, send access childcare for children with send. Now, when might they expect things to get better?

11:33

Speaker 2

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Well, money's gone in this year. So £47 billion into the Inclusive Early Years Fund has already with settings. And so there will be an immediate benefit. We're working rapidly on the training programmes that we want to see. Um, the training programmes that we want to see rolled out. Um and obviously we're working hard on responding to some of the bigger questions. There will be a need to kind of develop the policy and response to the consultation.

But there is money now. Chris has written a number down next to me, which must mean I need to clarify my figures, am I right?So yeah, the funding has gone in for this year. So it's 2627. Yeah.

11:34

Speaker 9

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Okay. Thank you. And then just in the same vein, we've also received evidence that people in rural, rural areas really struggle to access childcare. There's actual childcare deserts out there, whether their children have sinned or not. What assessment is your department made of their needs and how are we going to solve that problem?

11:35

Speaker 2

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Yeah, really important question. Uh, we overall don't think there's a sufficiency problem with childcare. As I said earlier on, 93% get top three choice. There's lots of provision in the sector's responded magnificently and expanded hugely to the extension of the entitlements. Uh, but obviously there are there are places, sometimes rural areas, sometimes more disadvantaged areas where there is a lack of provision. Um, we are, we are trying to do what we can on that. The first thing I'd say is we support local authorities.

Local authorities have the sufficiency duty. Um, so we're supporting local authorities, checking in with them, giving them the help and support that they need to make sure they're meeting it. And secondly, on disadvantaged provision in particular, that's where our school based nurseries programme is quite important. So 600 school based nurseries have benefited from funding so far. There's more to come. Um that is uh over a third are in disadvantaged areas. And that's also where other policy decisions like the early years teacher incentive.

In more disadvantaged area, the £4,500 payment Chris was talking about earlier also helps to ensure that we've got that good provision in areas where we worry that there isn't enough.

11:36

Speaker 9

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Okay. Good stuff.

11:36

Speaker 1

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Thank you. Thank you very much. Maintained nursery schools are a precious resource. Within our early years landscape, and they do a lot of exactly what the government wants. The early years sector to do. They have qualified teachers. They are inclusive settings with a high level of expertise for children with send purpose built facilities. Um, they are an excellent resource. They do not currently have a long term sustainable future in terms of their funding.

And they continue to face the pressure of closure right across the country. We've only got about 370 of them left, and they continue to face that pressure. Um, and the government has been largely silent on the future of maintained nursery schools. I know this because I've pushed in correspondence myself, because I've got two brilliant, maintained nursery schools in my constituency. What is the plan for maintained nursery schools?It's a really uncomfortable contradiction at the moment that we have this resource, which is doing everything the government would want of the sector has a huge amount of capacity.

That is in the situation where, as the government is seeking to expand school based nurseries, maintained nursery schools are facing closure. Um, it can't go on in this way without a resolution, um, forever. What what's the government doing to try to get to a longer term sustainable situation for maintained nursery schools?

11:38

Speaker 2

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I love maintained nursery schools as well. Um, I think they're brilliant and I talk about them a lot, as Chris will attest. My, my boys went to a brilliant maintained nursery school and I think they are best practice across the sector consistently because they do all the things that you say. Um chair so they've got um they've got a teacher, they've got a headteacher um often co-located in Surestart. Um will now will be best start family hub provision. So that kind of co-located family support with um, with fantastic early education.

And it is a best practice model that I think we should learn a lot from. Um, so I'm very proud of the 376. I think we've got maintained nursery schools very conscious to your point about the, um, the, the challenge that many are facing within the local authority context, that's why we do have additional supplementary funding for maintained nursery schools. I think it's 90 million a year. Um, and um, they will continue to be at the heart of our system and continue to be leading best practice.

In fact, so many of our stronger practice hubs are in maintained nursery schools for that very reason that they really lead the way. And I think that we would want to protect them for the future. But Chris, would you like to add?

11:40

Speaker 3

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Yeah, I would say I absolutely recognise the picture you described, chair. We also do see nursery schools who thrive because they found through a combination of provision, often for children with particularly acute send through roles like partnership with the best family hub or as a stronger practice hub, where they have used other funding streams to consolidate and build that place of local expertise and where they're really thriving, you can really see the value they add. What I think we want to do is to encourage local authorities to find what that route is, where they can get that value, and use the additional funding to leverage that value from the existing wonderful network of nursery schools.

11:40

Speaker 1

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So you do you have any plans to engage with the maintained nursery sector across the country to. Discuss with them what might be done to get to this situation where they're not feeling like they're constantly in crisis anymore or constantly at risk?

11:40

Speaker 2

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Yes. Um, so it was my great pleasure to speak at their conference. Recently, I did a few months ago. Um, and would very much like to continue that conversation. Um, so your suggestion of some more structured engagement with maintained nursery schools is a good idea. Chair one I'll take away because I hugely value the contribution that they make.

11:41

Speaker 1

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Thank you. Thank you very much. Um, that brings our questions to a close for this morning. We will obviously be in touch with you when we finalized our report in due course. But thank you very much for taking the time to be with us to answer our questions today. That brings our session to a close.

This debate has concluded

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