Science, Innovation and Technology Committee
Wednesday 8th July 2026
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09:37
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And welcome to today's meeting of the science, Innovation and Technology Select Committee, and we're very pleased that today we'll be hearing for the second time, both from the Secretary of State for science, Innovation and Technology, Liz Kendall, and from the Permanent Secretary to that department, Emran Mian. I want to really start by thanking our our witnesses and everyone here in this incredibly hot room in in London. So we'll try to keep the meeting to, to time. And if it's necessary, we may take a short breaks.
Uh, now, um um Secretary of State um it's um it's a little less than a year since you were appointed as Secretary of State. And I just want to start by asking you what you see as your most significant achievements in that time.
Uh, now, um um Secretary of State um it's um it's a little less than a year since you were appointed as Secretary of State. And I just want to start by asking you what you see as your most significant achievements in that time.
09:37
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think that the. Three things I'm most proud of, firstly, is the action we have taken to back more British AI companies and to give us greater leverage and sovereign control. And that includes our sovereign AI fund, backed by £500 million and our 1.1 billion AI hardware plan. Because if you believe, as I do, that AI is the most powerful technology of our lifetime, um, now the. Engine of not just economic power, but of hard power. And if you believe that Britain is world leading in this, but that we need to do more to shape this powerful technology to work for all, and not just a powerful, unaccountable few, then I believe those measures as a start, are critical to the future of the country.
Number one, number two, I, um, think. The ban on social media companies providing services to under 16 seconds will be a significant change in this in this country, to give children their childhood back, to give parents more control. And it will reset cultural norms for future generations. And thirdly, as a woman Secretary of State, I have put. Women in Science and tech at the forefront of everything I've done, not only. In setting up our Women in Tech Task Force to make.
Get more women in tech and more tech. That works for women, but also. Last week, publishing our Women in Research Charter, which sets a minimum standard that women in research should get the maternity leave and pay and adoption leave and baby loss leave and return to work policies that they deserve. Because we want more women in science, not only because they deserve equality, but because we need more science that works for women too. So those are the three things I'm proudest of in the last ten months.
Number one, number two, I, um, think. The ban on social media companies providing services to under 16 seconds will be a significant change in this in this country, to give children their childhood back, to give parents more control. And it will reset cultural norms for future generations. And thirdly, as a woman Secretary of State, I have put. Women in Science and tech at the forefront of everything I've done, not only. In setting up our Women in Tech Task Force to make.
Get more women in tech and more tech. That works for women, but also. Last week, publishing our Women in Research Charter, which sets a minimum standard that women in research should get the maternity leave and pay and adoption leave and baby loss leave and return to work policies that they deserve. Because we want more women in science, not only because they deserve equality, but because we need more science that works for women too. So those are the three things I'm proudest of in the last ten months.
09:39
09:40
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Of State. Those are really those are all three really important issues. And I know we'll be diving more deeply into them. I want to echo your remarks, particularly on women in tech and science. As a woman who worked in tech for 20 years before coming into Parliament, the action that you have taken has been very well received.
09:40
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I say, Dame, cuz it was actually because of women scientists and people who campaigned in Parliament, who I met with in the first week of Secretary of State, who raised these issues with me, including Lauren Sullivan, who's now my PPS. It's because and, and some of your tech your members here, Samantha um, but I. But that epitomizes it to me that it is because we've got more women in this place that they are raising the policy issues that matter. So it is due to women in Parliament, not, not just myself.
09:41
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Oh thank you, Secretary of State. And um this has been a, it has been a very busy time. We have a, a lot to, to discuss with you, many questions to ask. Um, just before we sort of dive deeply, I do want to ask you how you feel about buckets. So the, um. The, the, the UK are significant. In fact, £10 billion, uh, public, uh, spend has been divided into buckets as part of the bucket approach.
And that's you can't actually use the term without putting it into inverted commas. We will be, we will be going into some of the details of that. But I've heard from, um, from um people in the sector who feel that the term buckets, um infantilizes, um the, what is incredibly important for our, for my constituents, for our competitiveness on the global stage and is also, you know, the lives and livelihoods of many individuals around the country. Are you sticking with the bucket approach?
And that's you can't actually use the term without putting it into inverted commas. We will be, we will be going into some of the details of that. But I've heard from, um, from um people in the sector who feel that the term buckets, um infantilizes, um the, what is incredibly important for our, for my constituents, for our competitiveness on the global stage and is also, you know, the lives and livelihoods of many individuals around the country. Are you sticking with the bucket approach?
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09:42
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I want to say the big picture issue is this government has done more to back R&D than any government ever before. Yes, and I think it is correct to say what what is it that that money is being spent on?Absolutely. More money than ever on curiosity led research, because we know that has been the foundation of so many great.
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09:42
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I talk about, I talk about how are we, what are our priorities for this, for the use of taxpayers money, right?The second one is to say, uh, we should be focusing it on Britain's key national strengths. And thirdly, that we should be prioritising, uh, government issues, the issues that the government is focusing on, which is our industrial strategy sectors. I think that is the correct approach. We could have a long debate about terminology. Buckets, groups, framework, but underneath it, what are we trying to do?I absolutely back that approach.
And I should say they're all interlinked. You know, you can't completely separate them out.
And I should say they're all interlinked. You know, you can't completely separate them out.
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09:44
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I have, I have people have raised concerns with me about that, having to use a phrase which always has to appear in inverted commas to be understood in such a highly important area, where we need also the public's support for what we're doing. But let's move on now. And I'm going to go now to Daniel to raise some of those very important issues.
09:44
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Thank you. Good morning, Secretary of State. Um, I want to press you a bit on some of the relationships with the Yukari and, and some of the issues that this committee has been looking at around the changes in funding, particularly to science and technology Facilities Council. My opening question would be really where the decision making process lies. What's your involvement and how much do you direct Yukari?
09:45
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, I think it is right that Yukari, as the lead body, is responsible for determining where the research funding in detail goes. Uh, you know, not for me personally to do that. Um, and underneath that, um, stfc, as you know, I know there's been lots of real debate and concerns raised about issues there, and I'm more than happy to, to go into that. But they are themselves guided by a sort of independent committee of experts looking at their funding and looking at the science base and saying, where should this go?Where do we think the priorities are as experts?So I see the government's role and politicians as accountable to the public, is to set the broad framework.
I'm not going to use the the word um and then underneath that it is for Yukari and the bodies underneath it to set the specific areas where the research funding would be going.
I'm not going to use the the word um and then underneath that it is for Yukari and the bodies underneath it to set the specific areas where the research funding would be going.
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09:46
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, uh, as you know, um, Stfc's budget as a whole is remaining flat over the over the spending review. We'll have to wait to see their decisions informed by their independent committee of experts about where it goes. But I am absolutely sure that they will, first of all want to. Absolutely fulfil our international commitments, because science is by its nature, international. Secondly, that they will absolutely want to make sure the talent pipeline is there and strong. And thirdly, they will want to make sure that, obviously, there are pressures on their budget, particularly energy costs, I would say, but that we focus on our key strengths and the most important issues as as far as their independent experts assess.
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09:47
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Um. I agree with Patrick Valence's assessment of the situation, as you would expect me to do. I think he said to the committee and the other place that he thought it had been badly handled. And actually, when Steph's. FCS. Budget. Isn't being cut as a whole. They do have to manage that budget. That is inevitable. And they do have particularly high energy costs, but I am sure that the number of PhD starts in this area will remain the same.
The number of postdoctoral positions will remain the same. We will remain committed to our big international research projects. That is absolutely clear. So, um, I think it could have been handled better. Uh, but I know that their commitment to having a leading position in science, and I'd say to those people who are worried, and I understand that I want more people doing physics in this country. And in fact, this government is backing is backing this. If you just look at quantum, we desperately need physicists and their expertise and knowledge in quantum.
And we've put a £2 billion big bet on quantum as a technology for the future. So, um, I understand why they're worried. I hope when the final decisions are taken, they will see our commitment to keeping Britain's world leading position here. And they will also see, not least through our commitment on new technologies like quantum, that we value people in going into physics and this profession because they're so important for the country.
The number of postdoctoral positions will remain the same. We will remain committed to our big international research projects. That is absolutely clear. So, um, I think it could have been handled better. Uh, but I know that their commitment to having a leading position in science, and I'd say to those people who are worried, and I understand that I want more people doing physics in this country. And in fact, this government is backing is backing this. If you just look at quantum, we desperately need physicists and their expertise and knowledge in quantum.
And we've put a £2 billion big bet on quantum as a technology for the future. So, um, I understand why they're worried. I hope when the final decisions are taken, they will see our commitment to keeping Britain's world leading position here. And they will also see, not least through our commitment on new technologies like quantum, that we value people in going into physics and this profession because they're so important for the country.
09:49
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
It's been consistently badly handled, hasn't it?Because the chief executive admitted to us here that the communication had been bad. Now we hear that the minutes of some of the meetings have been updated. And then updated after the event. Um, as the Secretary of State, where does the responsibility lie for this?
09:49
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well you will. Imagine. Uh, I'm not shy in coming forward and saying, um. This could have been handled better. I had a number of discussions, including with UK, I about that. I think that's extremely important, not least because I think um, for precisely the reason you raise, I want people to see how much we value, uh. This whole area, how much, how important we think it is. And I think some of the bad handling of it has taken attention onto that, rather than the good things that the government is doing.
But we are all learn lessons as we go forward, which is why we want to make sure the next stage is is handled as effectively as possible.
But we are all learn lessons as we go forward, which is why we want to make sure the next stage is is handled as effectively as possible.
09:50
09:50
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah, that is a great frustration. So my message today and in my communications with Ukri and the sector as a whole as a whole, is that there is no that no future for science, no future for growth in this country without their contribution at the heart of it. And my commitment is I want to see the number of people going into this sector, uh, remaining the same or increasing. I want to put funding into the sector, including our international commitments, and I want to back the technologies of the future in which physics is absolutely at the heart.
That is my message to them. And I will make sure, believe you me, that I will go over this decision with a fine tooth comb to make sure all of those commitments are upheld, which is actually what I know. Ian Chapman and Ukri really want to do.
That is my message to them. And I will make sure, believe you me, that I will go over this decision with a fine tooth comb to make sure all of those commitments are upheld, which is actually what I know. Ian Chapman and Ukri really want to do.
09:51
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09:51
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Thank you. Um, I need to declare as well an interest. Um, we're going to be talking later, I think, about, uh, pharmaceuticals and my wife works for a pharmaceutical company, but on p pan, I've been reached out by a constituent of one of my neighbours in Didcot and Wantage who works at the Harwell campus. Um, they are really concerned about what the Secretary of State has declined, is described as a flat budget, but equates to real term cuts, particularly as she also mentions rightly, um, rising energy costs, which is important for a lot of the assets on that site.
Um, she also mentioned the importance of female researchers and sovereign capacity. And the person that reached out to me is working in both of those areas and is a woman. Um, so can she say to, to, to that constituent or of my neighbour?Um, why her rhetoric is not matching the reality on the ground.
Um, she also mentioned the importance of female researchers and sovereign capacity. And the person that reached out to me is working in both of those areas and is a woman. Um, so can she say to, to, to that constituent or of my neighbour?Um, why her rhetoric is not matching the reality on the ground.
09:52
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, I would say firstly, if you want to actually pass on her contact details and all of the issues that she's specifically raised, I will be more than happy to respond directly to her setting out my position and my, my view on that. Look, I think. We have put more investment as a whole into R&D than any government ever. Within that we have over the spending review. But of course, there are decisions that have to be taken within different fields and within Stfc in particular, they have had rising budget costs due to, you know, energy, um, subscriptions on our international commitments and also exchange rates.
So they do, everybody has to manage their budget within those costs. I would say to her that the decisions are not being taken by politicians. They are being informed by an independent expert committee of advisers. And I think their names are public. And I am sure when the final decisions are taken, they will set out the reasons for this, the reasons why some things are being prioritised, the reasons why some areas are not. But that's it is on the basis of what is best for the research and best for the science.
But it's hard for me until I know the actual specifics of her area, to be able to answer directly. But I would also say it is stfc. As the expert, they will have to set out the reasons for why they are doing that, and that's what's coming up soon.
So they do, everybody has to manage their budget within those costs. I would say to her that the decisions are not being taken by politicians. They are being informed by an independent expert committee of advisers. And I think their names are public. And I am sure when the final decisions are taken, they will set out the reasons for this, the reasons why some things are being prioritised, the reasons why some areas are not. But that's it is on the basis of what is best for the research and best for the science.
But it's hard for me until I know the actual specifics of her area, to be able to answer directly. But I would also say it is stfc. As the expert, they will have to set out the reasons for why they are doing that, and that's what's coming up soon.
09:54
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
I'm very, very grateful for her answer, and I will definitely follow up with the details. Um, just one further question then. So and I'm going to check my notes to make sure I say this correctly. Uh, yeah. Harwell campus hosts the UK's National Synchrotron Light Source facility. And this is a large facility where, um, enormous investment has gone into it yet. Um, as a result of the savings that are required, they may well lose jobs, they may well have to reduce their activity.
Does it make sense where um such investment has gone into scientific assets, where for them to go unused.
Does it make sense where um such investment has gone into scientific assets, where for them to go unused.
09:54
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well you, we will have to wait and see what the final decisions are. I know, I really do understand why people are concerned, but also I cannot pre-announce things that have yet to be signed off, signed, sealed and delivered. Um, but we've seen this in a number of areas where people have asked about not only that, but what's happening with CERN and other organisations here. My argument is that we still have those commitments on a different topic, which I do know about CERN, for example.
I know that's been really raised by many people. We will remain the second largest contributor to CERN, as we have done for the last eight years, and a number of other projects too. So you will have to forgive me that all the final details haven't been announced yet, but I don't know if you wanted to add any more on this.
I know that's been really raised by many people. We will remain the second largest contributor to CERN, as we have done for the last eight years, and a number of other projects too. So you will have to forgive me that all the final details haven't been announced yet, but I don't know if you wanted to add any more on this.
09:55
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
No, I think that's right. I think we're not in a position to comment on individual projects at this stage. The Fefc has been going through that consultation. Um, yes. Individual projects, including the one that you mentioned, have been asked to look at what scope they have to manage their costs differently. Stfc have now got all of that information, and they'll be making final decisions on that basis.
09:56
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thank you very much. I just want to bring you back briefly to what?To, to, to the Daniel mentioned in the extraordinary council meeting for the Stfc in December and the extraordinary doctoring of the minutes for that meeting, because that's the only way to describe it. And I want to ask you, Secretary of State, if you have looked at the way in which the minutes were changed substantively to reflect different interpretations of the shift in funding it was described, and how that reflects on the concerns this committee has already raised about the governance at the Stfc and what action you are going to take as a consequence.
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09:58
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So just just to be clear, it was changing how these cuts, whether or not they reflected a shift in funding from curiosity driven research to priority areas, which is at the heart of some of the concerns that many physicists and people, um, have. Um, written to us about. Right. Okay. Let's go on to sorry.
09:58
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Just very quickly, just for clarity. So are you saying in amongst all of that, that talk that stfc are basically on their own?Right. So whatever the decision, that's it. They're on their own. They decide their own fate. There will be no, uh, rescue boat, whatever the circumstances for our physics base.
09:59
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09:59
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I'm saying that they have a responsibility to set forward their case. yes or no, and that then Yukari as a whole is responsible for that. And I believe that when these when the announcement is made, I am absolutely obviously you will get all the information you need as a committee on that. And if I'm sure if you would like to bring us back for more conversations, we'd be happy to do that.
09:59
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So just to, um. Reflect on that then, um. When Patrick, when, when the minister, Patrick Vallance, says that there will be no cuts to physics, which is something that he told the committee, um, you're saying that it's up to that's that's actually Yukari's decision and not Patrick Vallance. It's not the minister's decision.
10:00
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10:00
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And he's right to say that their their budget as a whole is not being cut. I think the question here about the organisation. Have to manage their budgets and the cost pressures within it. It is not for ministers to take individual decisions in these areas. We have set out the framework. I'm not going to use the. the the B word here. Um and that is overall for Ukri as the accountant, as the responsible.
10:01
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Body secretary. I think the issue here is in terms of accountability, we have had huge concern, which Daniel and Freddie and Kit have, have, have addressed about what is happening to our physics base. We have early careers researchers whose careers they feel are are finished as a consequence of cuts you say do not exist. And if they did exist, they would be the responsibility of somebody else anyway. Is that a yes?Okay.
10:02
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
No, no, I it is the responsibility of Ukri to manage within the budget that the government has set for them. So the government is accountable for the budget that we have set for the UK and the priorities that we set for Ukri. Um it is then the responsibility of Ukri in individual research councils within Ukri to manage within that budget. Stfc's budget is not reducing, but it is flat and some of their costs are increasing. And so they do have to make choices in that.
10:02
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
That's an acceptable response given in, particularly given, let us say, the importance of nuclear physics to our economic and defensive security. So that's I think, the committee I mean, I don't want to get a lot of other subjects to go into. The committee is very confused as to who is accountable and who is responsible. And it doesn't seem like you can, um, address that confusion.
10:02
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Imran has set out. Instability. What I would say is when the when the decisions have been taken about the individual budgets within those councils, they will be put forward. And if you want to scrutinise that, either with Stfc and or with Patrick Vallance, I am sure there will be very happy to come before and answer all your questions about that.
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10:03
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, forgive me for not answering a hypothetical about a decision that has not been taken. You're saying, will I do something if if if I am not in that game?I'm saying we are responsible for how much money do we put in?What is the broad framework for UK, HRI and the three areas that we as a government have decided are the right way forward?Ukri and underneath them Stfc in a number of other organisations are responsible for those budgets. I want to make sure British physics remains world leading.
I will, of course, look at any of these issues. But can we when the when the actual proposals come forward, you as a committee will want to scrutinise them with Ukri, with Stfc, and I'm sure you will ask ministers to come forward to. And we will continue this discussion.
I will, of course, look at any of these issues. But can we when the when the actual proposals come forward, you as a committee will want to scrutinise them with Ukri, with Stfc, and I'm sure you will ask ministers to come forward to. And we will continue this discussion.
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10:05
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
The question. No, I said, I'm not going to speculate on decisions that have not yet happened. I have also very clearly said that I want and we have funded as a government, a record settlement. And I believe that UK physics can, must and will remain world leading in this area. But on individual decisions, let's wait and see what the Stfc says.
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10:07
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Morning, both. Um, look, having come back to work cross-party and support this mission. I support quite a lot of what the government is doing. And I think the framework is right. I'd call them pillars, not buckets. Um, but I do have some concerns. Two years in and I think it's our job to really start to raise them. One of them is the vulnerability of our universities, which I want to talk about to declare interest.
Chair, I for, for all I advise the Quantum Biology Foundation, the UK charity, um, promoting quantum biology, the pioneer group with their global fundraising for UK clusters and foreign ventures, a quantum fund. And I do some pro bono work for other UK ventures. Um, I wanted to ask about universities. You you will know you've said announced made very clear that they are the jewels in the crown of our innovation economy of our science economy. Um, and not just Oxford, Cambridge and the Golden Triangle, but around the country, Sheffield in advanced manufacturing.
Lincoln in agritech, Norwich, Liverpool in um. Leicester. Strathclyde. Newcastle. Um and one of my concerns is that the department has become very AI focused. It feels very London focused. And I think some of those regional clusters are feeling a bit left behind. But I wanted to ask about the the economic vulnerability our universities, many of them have become very dependent on overseas research money to to supplement tuition fees, which are really not adequate.
A lot of that. There's been a lot of China dependence built into that, and quite a lot of universities now are running big deficits. MRN will know the numbers. I'm told it's 42% today, but 80% are on track to run deficits. So I wanted to ask about how confident you are that our top universities aren't being held back by a funding model that doesn't really allow them to be elite global universities. And how vulnerable are the other 2030 key universities really are?They're not insured by government.
I think traditionally there was understanding that the government would underwrite them when 7% went to university. They're not. Um, can you give them some reassurance that, uh, us and reassurance that these are secure jewels in the UK crown.
Chair, I for, for all I advise the Quantum Biology Foundation, the UK charity, um, promoting quantum biology, the pioneer group with their global fundraising for UK clusters and foreign ventures, a quantum fund. And I do some pro bono work for other UK ventures. Um, I wanted to ask about universities. You you will know you've said announced made very clear that they are the jewels in the crown of our innovation economy of our science economy. Um, and not just Oxford, Cambridge and the Golden Triangle, but around the country, Sheffield in advanced manufacturing.
Lincoln in agritech, Norwich, Liverpool in um. Leicester. Strathclyde. Newcastle. Um and one of my concerns is that the department has become very AI focused. It feels very London focused. And I think some of those regional clusters are feeling a bit left behind. But I wanted to ask about the the economic vulnerability our universities, many of them have become very dependent on overseas research money to to supplement tuition fees, which are really not adequate.
A lot of that. There's been a lot of China dependence built into that, and quite a lot of universities now are running big deficits. MRN will know the numbers. I'm told it's 42% today, but 80% are on track to run deficits. So I wanted to ask about how confident you are that our top universities aren't being held back by a funding model that doesn't really allow them to be elite global universities. And how vulnerable are the other 2030 key universities really are?They're not insured by government.
I think traditionally there was understanding that the government would underwrite them when 7% went to university. They're not. Um, can you give them some reassurance that, uh, us and reassurance that these are secure jewels in the UK crown.
10:10
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I will kick off on that. And then I'm sure Imran will want to come in because as you know, responsibility for universities crosses ourselves and DfE. They've it's moved around in different parts of government over many, many different years. Um and it's absolutely essential that we have a fully joined up approach on that.