Transport Committee
Wednesday 8th July 2026
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09:15
09:15
09:15
09:15
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
So could you, Minister, briefly set out your department's philosophy of integration?The main principles that guided you as you developed the strategy and the key things that helped you to decide what to. So could you, Minister, briefly set out your departments to develop the strategy and the key things that helped you to decide what to prioritise?
09:16
09:16
09:16
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think traditionally we've we've planned and delivered transport in, in silos. And that means that that journeys are often a lot more complicated than they really need to be for people. And so better connected, uh, is all about bringing the system together so that it works as, as one. Um, and where we've got central government, we've got our local authorities and transport operators all, all moving towards the same direction against a shared set of goals. But ultimately, I think our vision is about a transport system that works for, for people.
Um, you know, that it's safe, uh, that it's reliable, that it's affordable. And of course that it's accessible. Um, I mean, basically that people can make journeys, uh, that they need to and get on with their life. Um, and so I think what's important to say is that that this strategy wasn't created in isolation. It was shaped directly with, with experts, uh, operators, uh, trade unions, uh, and of course, members of the public from, from throughout the country. And that included a call for evidence share.
Uh, we received over 6000 responses, which I think is, is great, uh, from members of the public. And we also embarked on an 11 stop roadshow across the country. I think I attended one of those when it first kicked off. In addition to that, we established people's panels with groups who are less often part of those conversations, um, such as people that live in rural areas, uh, and young people. And that really helped us to define what has become our sort of guiding principles.
And that is, of course, people place and partnership. I think we took a really deliberate decision to route the strategy in everyday experience of transport in people's lives. So that meant focusing primarily on on domestic transport, um, rather than covering broader areas such as freight and international travel within this, um, but those, those principles of, of, of, of people of place and partnership really underpin everything that we're trying to achieve within this, this strategy, uh, putting people at the heart of decision making. Um, genuinely, genuinely engaging with them to help shape transport systems around them and using transport to create those better connected places by empowering local leaders.
Um, and working in partnership across, across the sector. And I think that that can help make us better decisions and deliver better outcomes for people. And if we get it right, I really do think that we can transform transport across, across the country.
Um, you know, that it's safe, uh, that it's reliable, that it's affordable. And of course that it's accessible. Um, I mean, basically that people can make journeys, uh, that they need to and get on with their life. Um, and so I think what's important to say is that that this strategy wasn't created in isolation. It was shaped directly with, with experts, uh, operators, uh, trade unions, uh, and of course, members of the public from, from throughout the country. And that included a call for evidence share.
Uh, we received over 6000 responses, which I think is, is great, uh, from members of the public. And we also embarked on an 11 stop roadshow across the country. I think I attended one of those when it first kicked off. In addition to that, we established people's panels with groups who are less often part of those conversations, um, such as people that live in rural areas, uh, and young people. And that really helped us to define what has become our sort of guiding principles.
And that is, of course, people place and partnership. I think we took a really deliberate decision to route the strategy in everyday experience of transport in people's lives. So that meant focusing primarily on on domestic transport, um, rather than covering broader areas such as freight and international travel within this, um, but those, those principles of, of, of, of people of place and partnership really underpin everything that we're trying to achieve within this, this strategy, uh, putting people at the heart of decision making. Um, genuinely, genuinely engaging with them to help shape transport systems around them and using transport to create those better connected places by empowering local leaders.
Um, and working in partnership across, across the sector. And I think that that can help make us better decisions and deliver better outcomes for people. And if we get it right, I really do think that we can transform transport across, across the country.
09:18
09:19
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So I think this strategy gives us a clear vision um for a more integrated transport system that that puts, as I said, people first, um, it's really, it's a common framework if you like, um, we're embedding those principles across the transport network. And as I said, giving local leaders the powers, the funding and, and the tools that they need, I think, to deliver for their local communities. Um, but I think we're also within this driving practical improvements as well. Um, like things like, uh, integrating tickets, obviously as an example, better, um, passenger information.
Um, and of course some, some pretty big bus and rail reform as well. Um, but I think it's important to, recognise. That, that, that integration will not happen overnight. That's for certain. It will come from, from everybody across the transport system working towards these these shared goals. But crucially, I think allowing local areas the flexibility to do what works best for them locally. There's not a one size fits all approach here. And I think, you know, those those elements set out in the strategy are formed in those priority areas.
And within that there's then 40 concrete proposals, uh, within, within the document. Um, but much of the change that we're seeking to deliver really does come down to, to local transport authorities. Um, uh, driving forward and working with partners in their area. And we're backing them up, of course, with that long term, uh, simplified funding.
Um, and of course some, some pretty big bus and rail reform as well. Um, but I think it's important to, recognise. That, that, that integration will not happen overnight. That's for certain. It will come from, from everybody across the transport system working towards these these shared goals. But crucially, I think allowing local areas the flexibility to do what works best for them locally. There's not a one size fits all approach here. And I think, you know, those those elements set out in the strategy are formed in those priority areas.
And within that there's then 40 concrete proposals, uh, within, within the document. Um, but much of the change that we're seeking to deliver really does come down to, to local transport authorities. Um, uh, driving forward and working with partners in their area. And we're backing them up, of course, with that long term, uh, simplified funding.
09:20
09:21
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Um, Minister, the, uh, temptation is to think about joined up journeys from an organisational point of view. I'm interested in what it's going to be like from the citizen's point of view. Can you tell us what some of these significant outcomes you described are going to be, and when we might start to see them?
09:21
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Um, so I think look, whilst I think there's some transformative change out in, in, in our vision and principles, and I think they will really provide those long term benefits for people, and we've got those 40 key. Commitments that I touched on, and I think they will deliver real tangible. Benefits across the country. I think one of the areas that people will see a real difference is, is ticketing, which I mentioned just, just a moment ago. Um, we're working across the board to make fares.
Ticketing much simpler. Uh, it's something that's come back loud and clear from the public. It's too complicated so that passengers are able to move, uh, seamlessly between different forms of transport. A key part of that, I think I mentioned this when I appeared before you about the bus services bill. Now, the act was around Project Coral. Um, and that's really there to provide the technology for integrated pay as you go ticketing across the different operators in local areas.
Basically fares will be capped automatically, making it really easy for people, but just to bring it back to, to passengers, really, it means a much simpler experience for people. Um, you know, there's just tap and travel and they don't have to worry about getting the right tickets in advance. And they'll always know that they're going to get the best fare. And I think that's really important. I think we've already seen, um, in integrated networks in an integrated ticketing, the benefits that that can bring, uh, examples, obviously here in London, uh, but also places like, like Nottingham, uh, and of course in, in greater Manchester with, with derby network, I think it's really successful, uh, integrating that network, you know, that's brought together, uh, Metro Metrolink, uh, both walking, cycling into, into one cohesive network under a single regime.
Um, and I know they're also obviously in the process of looking how they can also integrate, uh, rail as well. So, uh, I think, you know, what I want to see is more places being able to enjoy that, that single joined up approach.
Ticketing much simpler. Uh, it's something that's come back loud and clear from the public. It's too complicated so that passengers are able to move, uh, seamlessly between different forms of transport. A key part of that, I think I mentioned this when I appeared before you about the bus services bill. Now, the act was around Project Coral. Um, and that's really there to provide the technology for integrated pay as you go ticketing across the different operators in local areas.
Basically fares will be capped automatically, making it really easy for people, but just to bring it back to, to passengers, really, it means a much simpler experience for people. Um, you know, there's just tap and travel and they don't have to worry about getting the right tickets in advance. And they'll always know that they're going to get the best fare. And I think that's really important. I think we've already seen, um, in integrated networks in an integrated ticketing, the benefits that that can bring, uh, examples, obviously here in London, uh, but also places like, like Nottingham, uh, and of course in, in greater Manchester with, with derby network, I think it's really successful, uh, integrating that network, you know, that's brought together, uh, Metro Metrolink, uh, both walking, cycling into, into one cohesive network under a single regime.
Um, and I know they're also obviously in the process of looking how they can also integrate, uh, rail as well. So, uh, I think, you know, what I want to see is more places being able to enjoy that, that single joined up approach.
09:23
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
So ticketing great, but this is an integrated transport strategy, not the integrated ticketing strategy. Don't get me wrong. I think we all, we all see the huge benefit of simplified ticketing. Are there any other aspects of material difference that maybe Conrad or Ben?You feel as though if you were going to say to someone in the future, this is what it's going to be like?Um, anything other than ticketing, which we're obviously very excited about.
09:23
09:24
09:24
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So what does that mean for you as a person?It means that when you, uh, get your bus to a station, you are, you're both. It's easy for you to know when your train is going to where you want to go to, and hopefully it will be better aligned. Now that is a very, very difficult thing to do because often a bus may call it two train stations, three train stations. You can't necessarily optimize everything. But that with with the advent of AI, with fewer participants, uh, we believe it's going to be much more possible to, to do, to do that.
And the, and the sort of way that's going to happen is through things like the use of digital twins that will allow you to model this and do it. So it sounds quite technical and abstract, but if you're turning up at your bus stop, if you know when it's going to go, the bus is going to go. And you know when your train is going to go, it's just a much, much better experience for people. So that would be one example.
And the, and the sort of way that's going to happen is through things like the use of digital twins that will allow you to model this and do it. So it sounds quite technical and abstract, but if you're turning up at your bus stop, if you know when it's going to go, the bus is going to go. And you know when your train is going to go, it's just a much, much better experience for people. So that would be one example.
09:25
09:25
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think we might have exhausted the T's, I'm afraid. Um, I think this is, uh, this is about ensuring that public transport is an easier and more attractive choice for people to, to use in all areas of the country, in urban areas, in suburban areas, in rural areas. And there is more that can be done. And the strategy sets out a range of ways in which we are going to make it easier for people to use public transport, whether they're using one mode of transport, but particularly if they need to use more, more than one.
So take, for example, a rural area that at the moment has perhaps a one train, an hour train service from a train station and a bus service that then takes people on to, to, to other locations. Um, if we can, if we can do more to join up the timetables between those two services, between those two modes. If we can make it easier for people to pay for those two different modes of transport, then I think we can expect more people to want to use those modes of transport, make it more attractive for them to use it.
And the moment that more people are using public transport. The revenue increases and the sustainability of those services grows. So, um, so it's about making it easier and cheaper and, and more straightforward for people to access the services.
So take, for example, a rural area that at the moment has perhaps a one train, an hour train service from a train station and a bus service that then takes people on to, to, to other locations. Um, if we can, if we can do more to join up the timetables between those two services, between those two modes. If we can make it easier for people to pay for those two different modes of transport, then I think we can expect more people to want to use those modes of transport, make it more attractive for them to use it.
And the moment that more people are using public transport. The revenue increases and the sustainability of those services grows. So, um, so it's about making it easier and cheaper and, and more straightforward for people to access the services.
09:26
09:26
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I was just going to add in terms of data as well. I think we're looking at more and more open data, pulling it together in a cohesive hub. So you'll see already that we've worked in partnership with with Google. So you can see the real time location of, of 80% of the buses outside of London. And that gives real confidence across the network for people to be able to make choices. You know, the bus is late. I'm not going to leave that, that that pub or leave my house and stand in the dark or in the rain.
And I think that's really useful as well in terms of pulling all that data together.
And I think that's really useful as well in terms of pulling all that data together.
09:27
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
These are ambitious outcomes, right?This is ticketing. I don't have to worry about timetables. I can trust. And the then your, your point about actually making it a more attractive option. I've asked you to answer on behalf of the passenger. Thank you for doing that. Let's focus on the organization. I think just last month, the permanent secretary told us the department was considering an overall implementation plan and a monitoring and evaluation plan for this better connected strategy.
How are you going to be implementing this on a practical level, and how will you know how well it's going as you go with it?
How are you going to be implementing this on a practical level, and how will you know how well it's going as you go with it?
09:28
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So I think it's really important that this this document better connect isn't just a statement of ambition. I obviously want to make sure that it is measurable and we can be held to account about that. And I think that's why we've set really clear outcomes. Across the priority areas that we've touched upon, um, to help us track, uh, whether transport, you know, is, is becoming more integrated, uh, and whether people are actually seeing real benefits of that. Uh, I think we're looking at things that really matter to, to passengers, frankly, you know, such as, uh, satisfaction, uh, with, with services, you know, confidence in things like, uh, travel.
Information, ticketing, accessibility. Obviously, you guys did an amazing job with access. Access denied. Uh, and how easy it is for people to get to those jobs, to get to education, to, to get to those different opportunities. We're also developing in parallel with that, obviously, some robust monitoring. And that is important. And an evaluation framework, uh, behind that. And that brings together a lot of actual existing data that we pull together, uh, nationally because we don't add increasing burden to, to local authorities and where necessary, commissioned new research, um, to help, you know, guide that engagement to understand where we need to do further improvements.
Um, I don't know if you've.
Information, ticketing, accessibility. Obviously, you guys did an amazing job with access. Access denied. Uh, and how easy it is for people to get to those jobs, to get to education, to, to get to those different opportunities. We're also developing in parallel with that, obviously, some robust monitoring. And that is important. And an evaluation framework, uh, behind that. And that brings together a lot of actual existing data that we pull together, uh, nationally because we don't add increasing burden to, to local authorities and where necessary, commissioned new research, um, to help, you know, guide that engagement to understand where we need to do further improvements.
Um, I don't know if you've.
09:29
09:29
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Minister, you've just addressed an important guiding principle of the measurement framework, which is that it's going to be aligned to the passenger experience. That's that's I think makes sense and fits what you said earlier in response to my previous question. Um, I guess the question that is on my mind is how will we know?How are you going to measure the extent to which people are making preferable choices other than just passenger volumes, which of course is just too generic to think about, right?
09:30
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So if I take it at two levels, the national level and then the local level. So at the national level, in the strategy against each of the eight priorities, we set out a number of metrics we would use to monitor progress. And we committed to publishing an update report on how it's going before the end of this Parliament. Clearly, some of this is going to take a bit of a while to embed and to to flow through. Hence the. Hence the.
Hence the timing. There. Uh, though those data sets are largely existing data sets, things like the National Travel Survey that we produced, many of them produced annually. Some of them produced, uh, six monthly. So it does depend a bit. As the minister said, we're also looking where we may need new tools or ways of having insights. So something we've developed in recent years. Is what we call the connectivity tool, helps us know how connected a particular place in the country is.
We're going to build on that to focus on, uh, understanding where there is transport, poverty. And Ben and his team at the moment are doing a lot of work with academia and others to come up with a robust mechanism there. So there's some, some new areas. And obviously we'll find other areas where we think there are gaps. We'll, will, will, will, will do this. Then we've got at the local level now at the local level, obviously at the last spending review, we provided about 21 billion of funding to local places, uh, in either our local transport grant or our transport for city regions funding.
And that is backed up with a whole suite of outcome frameworks, which we've agreed with places. And that's how people will be able to. Going back to your question about people, that's how people will be able to see what's happening at their local level in terms of driving those changes. So it's a suite of measures, but we've got quite a lot, a lot going on there.
Hence the timing. There. Uh, though those data sets are largely existing data sets, things like the National Travel Survey that we produced, many of them produced annually. Some of them produced, uh, six monthly. So it does depend a bit. As the minister said, we're also looking where we may need new tools or ways of having insights. So something we've developed in recent years. Is what we call the connectivity tool, helps us know how connected a particular place in the country is.
We're going to build on that to focus on, uh, understanding where there is transport, poverty. And Ben and his team at the moment are doing a lot of work with academia and others to come up with a robust mechanism there. So there's some, some new areas. And obviously we'll find other areas where we think there are gaps. We'll, will, will, will, will do this. Then we've got at the local level now at the local level, obviously at the last spending review, we provided about 21 billion of funding to local places, uh, in either our local transport grant or our transport for city regions funding.
And that is backed up with a whole suite of outcome frameworks, which we've agreed with places. And that's how people will be able to. Going back to your question about people, that's how people will be able to see what's happening at their local level in terms of driving those changes. So it's a suite of measures, but we've got quite a lot, a lot going on there.
09:32
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
And I'm going to ask in a moment about when we might see some of those measures reported out, um, and what the overall timescales for delivery are. But just Ben, if I could ask you to attend to a particularly difficult aspect of measurement, which if you take it for granted that survivorship bias means that only measuring current public transport uses doesn't give you the full picture of the benefit of integrated transport. How are you going to find out about the motivations and behaviours of the people that aren't yet in the public transport network?That's a particularly important cohort to achieve the preferential change that you described earlier.
09:32
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Absolutely. So, um, I mean, I think the first thing is just to go back to what the minister said, which is that, you know, we absolutely recognise that delivering better integrated transport across the country is not a one size fits all. Um, approach. Can't be because different places clearly have different, different needs and are frankly at different stages of development of their own integrated transport networks and, and approaches. Um, working with the places and having the places, uh, drive this, the funding, as Conrad said, has been, uh, has been made available to local places so they can design what they need.
Uh, many places will already be looking and thinking about the future, what that means in terms of their population, the growth of their areas, uh, you know, different aspects of development, housing, economic growth, but also about the demographics of the future and importantly, about the transport technologies of the future, which we expect will play a big part in, in delivering better integrated transport into the future. And for our part, in, in DFT, one of the things we have done is made £30 million available for local authorities to work with us on digital twins, which, uh, Conrad mentioned earlier on, this is about modelling.
This is about using the latest AI technology to look at transport networks in detail and to set up live models of existing transport networks to give operators or local authorities the ability to make changes and say, well, what happens if we build a new development on the edge of this town and 30,000 more people are using the transport network, what would that do to the roads in this particular place?What would that do to the bus services?And it enables places to say, well, what is going to happen in the future?How will the transport network respond?What will happen if we don't do anything?And what are the best interventions that we can make to ensure that.
Uh, many places will already be looking and thinking about the future, what that means in terms of their population, the growth of their areas, uh, you know, different aspects of development, housing, economic growth, but also about the demographics of the future and importantly, about the transport technologies of the future, which we expect will play a big part in, in delivering better integrated transport into the future. And for our part, in, in DFT, one of the things we have done is made £30 million available for local authorities to work with us on digital twins, which, uh, Conrad mentioned earlier on, this is about modelling.
This is about using the latest AI technology to look at transport networks in detail and to set up live models of existing transport networks to give operators or local authorities the ability to make changes and say, well, what happens if we build a new development on the edge of this town and 30,000 more people are using the transport network, what would that do to the roads in this particular place?What would that do to the bus services?And it enables places to say, well, what is going to happen in the future?How will the transport network respond?What will happen if we don't do anything?And what are the best interventions that we can make to ensure that.
09:34
09:34
09:34
09:34
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
That's all lovely, but are you going to be telling local authorities if they're going to do that discovery exercise of actually working out what's going to work in these places?They have to survey people in a proper way and not just ask existing bus users whether they have any opinions, because that's not a representative sample of the the wider transport need, is it?That's and I remain to be convinced whether changes to the NPF will actually deliver housing schemes that are based around public transport rather than the private car, as their primary design principle.
How are you going to be giving more direction to local authorities to do this in a scientific way?
How are you going to be giving more direction to local authorities to do this in a scientific way?
09:34
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So so I mean, absolutely they will they will need to. And I think the outcomes frameworks that we have in place are where we're going to be monitoring how they are doing this, checking what progress they are making, and thinking about what the right interventions that we may need to make are. If we see that is not happening in in in particular places. So I think through that through that framework, which requires sort of twice yearly monitoring as a as a minimum, we will be able to see what's happening.
We'll be able to decide whether it's appropriate for DFT to intervene.
We'll be able to decide whether it's appropriate for DFT to intervene.
09:35
09:35
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Just a few a few specific examples. So the National Travel Survey is how we look across all all the modes. And that plus the, uh. The trip chain analysis sort of work that we've been doing that we set out in the strategy that tells you how people make journeys. Because actually what we're interested in is people's journeys, not a journey on a little bit of transport. That's one way. The other thing we've we've done through our bus funding is actually make sure that all local transport authorities have to engage with the your bus journey research.
The transport focus has done. So that's going to give us a much, much greater insight, for example, into, into, into, into buses.
The transport focus has done. So that's going to give us a much, much greater insight, for example, into, into, into, into buses.
09:36
09:36
09:36
09:37
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So I would I would anticipate that the vast majority of those 40 commitments will happen within this Parliament, and we'll commit to continuing to keep you updated on that. I'm sure we can give you periodic updates, as well as a kind of update near the end. And I would really expect to be able to, uh, to demonstrate against most of the headlines, uh, headline metrics and at a local level, obviously through the outcome frameworks, because most of the change will come in at a local level, um, delivered by, by local partners.
And those outcome frameworks are public, they are publicly available. Um, and so you see the progress made in individual areas.
And those outcome frameworks are public, they are publicly available. Um, and so you see the progress made in individual areas.
09:37
09:37
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
No. So the outcome frameworks are an annual will be an annual process. Uh, most of them will be published through the Mhclg website as part of an integrated piece. Because again, integrating transport is not just about integrating the transports, integrating it in growth and other in other areas. And then the other thing that will give you, give you insights is we've just published our strategic plan, which I know you asked our permanent secretary about, uh, previously. That again, includes a number of sort of outcome data sources that will be using to track progress.
And again, that's published annually.
And again, that's published annually.
09:38
09:38
09:38
09:39
09:39
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Can I just pick up on a issue about the National Travel Survey?And many years ago, I was randomly selected to be interviewed for that. And I can't remember but do the questions ask, you know, if you. Take a journey, would you have done that journey in any other way?What would have. What would have made you shift to that way of operating?Like you don't have a car, you drive. If you did have a car, or if it was cheaper, or if it the it took less time or if it, you know, it was easier.
And if so, what was easier look like if you don't travel at all, what would make you travel for different types of journeys?Um, do those are those sort of questions, those alternative choices, um, get explored. Um, because these, these are quite detailed interviews at National travel survey.
And if so, what was easier look like if you don't travel at all, what would make you travel for different types of journeys?Um, do those are those sort of questions, those alternative choices, um, get explored. Um, because these, these are quite detailed interviews at National travel survey.
09:40
09:40
09:40
09:40
09:40
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
to adapt?So we're definitely it's always the key with these surveys is that they need to be longitudinal. So you get the real benefits of the learning. But my statistical colleagues are always looking at how we can improve. The other thing we look at in this area, though, is kind of behavioural research. Working with people like Transport Focus to really understand what motivates people and what people expect from a journey, which goes, I think, very much to your.
09:41
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Coming on to behavioural focus shortly. Okay. Um, improving the strategy. Alex. Thank you chair. Um, in our most recent evidence session, some witnesses suggested that there were several areas in which the strategy could be improved. One of these were clearer targets. So you've talked already today about metrics and commitments but not specifically targets. Is there a reason why, um better connected doesn't have targets in it.
09:42
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think I think it's important to say, first of all, that, you know, since, since publishing the, the strategy, we've continued to engage. It wasn't a publish and leave. I think, I think there are there's clear deliverables in there. There's 40 concrete deliverables in there. And then there's the local outcome frameworks, which will outline how that's being delivered in the local area.
09:42
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Is it is it helpful for me to say a bit more about how we're going to use the local outcome frameworks to do this?So alongside Better Connected, we actually published a suite of other documents. We published, uh, some work on how we were going to help places collect better data around using data and AI. But critically, we also published the first update of the local transport plan guidance, for over well over a decade. Now, that sets out how we want local places to interpret better connected and take that into account as they produce a statutory guidance, as they produce their local transport plans.
And I think what we've been doing is working with places so that they can then reflect their targets that meet their needs at that local, that local, local level. The, I think more powerful things about doing it this way is that means that local growth plans, their spatial development strategies as they're developing them and also their local transport plans should be much, much more integrated. So it really drives this integration theme. I think I've talked about the outcome frameworks through the funding. And again, that sets a set of targets which we've agreed with individual places to recognise their differences and that that is how we will see this come through.
And I think what we've been doing is working with places so that they can then reflect their targets that meet their needs at that local, that local, local level. The, I think more powerful things about doing it this way is that means that local growth plans, their spatial development strategies as they're developing them and also their local transport plans should be much, much more integrated. So it really drives this integration theme. I think I've talked about the outcome frameworks through the funding. And again, that sets a set of targets which we've agreed with individual places to recognise their differences and that that is how we will see this come through.
09:43
09:44
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I hope so, like I said, we've continued to engage with with organisations since its publication. I think what we don't want to do is to constantly republish a long term strategy. I think having some stability in that is really important. Um, and having those measurables to demonstrate we're making progress is there?I think there's been some actually a really, really positive response from, from across transport. Um, I think we've had particularly strong engagement with our mayoral areas. I know you could probably talk a little bit about some of the mayoral.
Strategic conversations that we've had. It might be worth talking about that and how we continue to reflect.
Strategic conversations that we've had. It might be worth talking about that and how we continue to reflect.
09:44
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
The. So prior to the strategy, lots of places were saying to us, it's very hard for us to approach integrated transport without knowing what you want to do as a, as a, as a government. We know you're doing, uh, prioritising devolution. We know you're prioritising bus reform. You know, you're prioritising rail reform. And I think that's very much why we've produced this strategy to give them that that vision, what we do to support that is we have a series of engagements with all the main male strategic authorities, where me and a team of colleagues, not only from the department but also from our agencies and the wider DFT family.
So Network Rail, National Highways will go and spend two days in a place really understanding their transport needs, what they're seeking to achieve and how we can support them. And I think that is very much how we're trying to make sure that this this translates into into, into real change at a local level. And what they've said to us is this is hugely helpful. It gives us clarity. They're very grateful for having this guidance that backs that up. And now they're taking that away and aligning it with their plans.
So Network Rail, National Highways will go and spend two days in a place really understanding their transport needs, what they're seeking to achieve and how we can support them. And I think that is very much how we're trying to make sure that this this translates into into, into real change at a local level. And what they've said to us is this is hugely helpful. It gives us clarity. They're very grateful for having this guidance that backs that up. And now they're taking that away and aligning it with their plans.
09:46
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I mean, yeah, you keep going back to local delivery agents, but this is a national strategy. And whilst there were some positive responses to the consultation, there are also a lot of challenges for you, particularly, um things like clearer targets and timescales. Um, and you know, is, is this a, you know, is this a vision or a plan?Um, or a lot of, or a number of nice. Ideas. Do you not think there is an opportunity to improve the strategy next time round or, or call it, you know, call it a subset of the strategy or something, because you did get a lot of criticism about the vagueness of much of it.
09:46
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Think this is a framework. It's a framework to build on. And I think we'll continue engaging across the sector to, to learn the lessons, to make sure that that we're achieving it. And if we're not, we'll change tact. We'll use the metrics again to, to learn and develop. But it has only just been published. Uh, so I think we need some time to settle.
09:47
09:47
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
There had been an awful lot of engagement, though, throughout mayoral authority. So I said 6000 pieces of of input from the public, extensive levels of roadshows, etc. it was really important that we got in front of people to understand the real life challenges that they face across the transport system. But of course, we'll continue to listen to feedback and how we can do things differently to deliver the change that we talk about.
09:47
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I mean, I think a summary of it was that of what people have said, it doesn't include detailed, specific action plans for how each of its commitments will be implemented is different. And, and time, time lines or milestones, plural. They are different. There are a number of different elements, but I think that was a sort of summary of. A lot of the overarching, um. Criticisms that that people who wrote to us who will have also written to you have, have, have made.
09:48
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I accept what they're saying there, but I do think every single area comes with different challenges, different social, economic, geographical challenges, different services that they've inherited. And so they come at this a slightly different way, different speeds. I think that's why we try to measure that success through through the outcome frameworks, which were negotiated with local areas to take that all into consideration so we could map each individual area's progress in delivering a more integrated experience.
09:48
09:49
09:49
09:49
09:50
09:50
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Go on. Um, so just in terms of going backwards a little bit, I was on the Railways Bill committee and the buses Bill committee. And I know you faced a bit of a challenge, particularly in the Railways bill, about the fact that the strategy came after the legislation. So, you know, Conrad, you've explained that you've done all of this connecting up. It felt very backwards. And I just wonder whether you would do it differently if you had your time all over again, because quite frankly, it felt quite ludicrous to sit through all of that bill committee creating Great British Railway when the integrated rail, when the integrated Transport strategy hadn't been published and it was, you know, it was quite unacceptable from our perspective.
So how do you feel about that?Because it's great that you've spoken to all these mayoral authorities. But again, what came up time and time again in the debate around both the buses bill and the railway bill, was it's not just about mayoral authorities, it's about the rest of the country. And so what you've done is created a strategy after the horse has bolted that doesn't actually talk to the whole country. It just talks to these big jigsaw pieces. And the rest of it kind of hasn't been.
So I just wonder if there's any reflection on thinking we should have actually got ahead of this, rather than been putting it in afterwards.
So how do you feel about that?Because it's great that you've spoken to all these mayoral authorities. But again, what came up time and time again in the debate around both the buses bill and the railway bill, was it's not just about mayoral authorities, it's about the rest of the country. And so what you've done is created a strategy after the horse has bolted that doesn't actually talk to the whole country. It just talks to these big jigsaw pieces. And the rest of it kind of hasn't been.
So I just wonder if there's any reflection on thinking we should have actually got ahead of this, rather than been putting it in afterwards.
09:52
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So I think when the new government was, was, was elected, uh, we had, we were given some very clear priorities, one of which was to drive forward on rail reform, in other words, to drive forward on bus reform. And a third was to deliver an integrated transport strategy, which really had people at its centre. And so I think that is, you know, that is the logic, because otherwise there would be a very long period where progress had not been made on all these vital issues in terms of developing the strategy.
Uh, I feel that the time we spent listening to people, and it wasn't, we've spoken mainly about mayoral areas so far, but I should be absolutely clear, those outcome frameworks apply to all local transport authorities. It's not only mayoral areas. We spent a lot of time talking to people like adept, who represent all the local transport authorities. We held our roadshows, uh, all over the country, not only in, in, in mayoral areas. So I think we did need to take that, that time.
And of course, we have been working in supporting ministers ambitions to make sure that what we do is a very coherent piece. So would it have been lovely to have had a strategy that was produced and then do everything else?Well, I suppose it would, but but we're never starting from a point zero in time. And so actually, I think we benefited from being able to learn what we were doing on bus reform. And it was sort of developed in parallel.
Uh, I feel that the time we spent listening to people, and it wasn't, we've spoken mainly about mayoral areas so far, but I should be absolutely clear, those outcome frameworks apply to all local transport authorities. It's not only mayoral areas. We spent a lot of time talking to people like adept, who represent all the local transport authorities. We held our roadshows, uh, all over the country, not only in, in, in mayoral areas. So I think we did need to take that, that time.
And of course, we have been working in supporting ministers ambitions to make sure that what we do is a very coherent piece. So would it have been lovely to have had a strategy that was produced and then do everything else?Well, I suppose it would, but but we're never starting from a point zero in time. And so actually, I think we benefited from being able to learn what we were doing on bus reform. And it was sort of developed in parallel.
09:55
09:55
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
I think, easier prospect integration of all modes though, aren't we?And actually, what we found in the Railways Bill is that actually we didn't get to talk about that integration because the strategy wasn't there. And time and time again we hit a point where we couldn't get the answers from ministers that we wanted because the strategy wasn't in place. And although that was the government's aim, I mean, effectively that means it's ministers fault that we haven't ended up being able to look at this in in the right order.
And, you know, it's just it's just interesting because, you know, we I sat through all of those bill committees for many hours. And it was it was quite frustrating.
And, you know, it's just it's just interesting because, you know, we I sat through all of those bill committees for many hours. And it was it was quite frustrating.
09:56
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And will it be too late if a, if a bus franchise has just been let where there's no flexibility. As a little local example. But Alex, did you want to pick up on, um. Integration disincentive. Your question. I was going to do it after five, but I can do it now if you want. Yeah. I'm just looking at your last message. Um, so. This was really about, integration and passengers.
So we had some evidence earlier on in, in the sessions. So fundamentally, if you're, if you're a passenger and you're at a station, sometimes they hold a train because the one below one behind has been, you know, um, been delayed for some reason or other. But when we asked the bus company, is there ever an occasion where you might hold your bus because the train is delayed?Absolutely not. Because there are disincentives to do that. He might get fined by the traffic commissioner.
Can you envisage a world in which buses wait for trains and trains work, wait for buses?And how would you make sure that that kind of integrated, um, set of, of things happened at a national level?
So we had some evidence earlier on in, in the sessions. So fundamentally, if you're, if you're a passenger and you're at a station, sometimes they hold a train because the one below one behind has been, you know, um, been delayed for some reason or other. But when we asked the bus company, is there ever an occasion where you might hold your bus because the train is delayed?Absolutely not. Because there are disincentives to do that. He might get fined by the traffic commissioner.
Can you envisage a world in which buses wait for trains and trains work, wait for buses?And how would you make sure that that kind of integrated, um, set of, of things happened at a national level?
09:59
10:00
10:01
10:02
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Okay, so let's say that say the AI has said, look, the train is late. If only this bus would wait for five minutes, everything would be much better for the passengers. It still involves someone having the ability to make that decision, the confidence to make that decision, and the fact that they're not going to get into trouble for making the decision, which is the situation at the moment. What is the government doing to enable that to happen?
10:02
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Well, I think it's around people coming together, isn't it?Having those discussions, looking at a cohesive, integrated network within, within localities. Um, it's not easy. It's, it's really not. There is a ripple effect. If you hold that bus back, are you preventing those people from getting to the hospital on time or to their job on time?There is, there is there's, there's impacts of doing that. Um, butterfly effect. If you think if you stop this bit, what's the, what's the so it is complicated.
10:04
10:04
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I don't think we shouldn't. But again, that just might be five minutes late. Then getting to the stop, which may cause somebody to be late. It may be other things that add on to that. So there is a there is a bigger impact potentially. I think obviously, and I think bus franchising helps with this. Again, having make those decisions, uh, rather than, you know, five different bus operators trying to, to align with, with railway timetables.
I think that again, having that, that single guiding force, uh, in places like the bee network will help to make those decisions.
I think that again, having that, that single guiding force, uh, in places like the bee network will help to make those decisions.
10:06
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Can I, can I add maybe a couple of points?So I think one of the things you will see when you have a single national rail operator and a single local bus franchise is things like the local control rooms that places run will be able to take those judgements based on the best available data. I think the thing that would worry me is the, you know, you've held the bus because the the 3:00 train is late and it's going to get in at 3:10. And that means further down the line, the bus is not collecting the children from at the at the school bus stop at 330, uh, and therefore there's an issue there.
So that that's the kind of reason why you need a lot of insight to get these things right. But that's where I think things like local control rooms can really can really help.
So that that's the kind of reason why you need a lot of insight to get these things right. But that's where I think things like local control rooms can really can really help.
10:07
10:07
10:08
10:09
10:10
10:11
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Um, so some of the responses to the strategy we've heard have flagged that it does not contain a fully thought out approach to integrated shared mobility, such as car clubs, micro mobility and park and ride services with the wider transport network. Can you tell us what role you see these services having in an integrated network?
10:11
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So so we want to make obviously shared mobility. Um, you know, like, like car sharing. Um, a bigger part, I think of, of our transport network. Um, I know we challenged on that before and giving people an opportunity for that affordable, um, way of travel that helps reduce congestion as well. Uh, and, and has the added benefit of cutting emissions. Uh, we are publishing new guidance for local authorities, I think later this year. Um, encouraging them to support car sharing through their local transport plans, um, as well as exploring ways to make it easier to things like, like dedicated car parking spaces for, for car clubs.
The strategy, you'll see that we set out. Shared mobility options, how We set out. Shared mobility options. How that could be used really as part of an integrated transport system in both urban, suburban and in rural areas as well. On on micro mobility. Um, I think. Again, that can play a really important role in the, the menu of options available to people. And we're giving more powers to, um, to local areas, I think through the English Devolution and Community empowerment bill in terms of being able to, to manage shared cycle schemes.
So again, that's bringing that together again. Um, and we've also committed when parliamentary time allows to, uh, regulating e-scooters, but we will be consulting on proposals within the next year so that when that parliamentary time becomes available, we're ready to kind of hit the ground running on that. The other thing I think it's important to mention is, uh, we. Obviously want to make sure that everyone can travel, um, easily. And independently, confidently. And so we've, we've commissioned on the back of the excellent work that, that the select committee did on access denied a review of powered mobility devices.
And that really is it's the first time in 40 years that that has been looked at. And I think that's a really important piece of work. Uh, and the other was park and ride. Park and ride. Um, so yeah, I think that's obviously really important. I saw that in York and in other places. Um, I think that really helps where you've got, um, I think particularly in kind of suburban and rural areas or tourism hot spots, I think York was an example that I, uh, visited, but I think again, local areas are best placed to make make decisions on that and how they and if they expand those facilities.
I think the other bit that we're kind of exploring the national parking platform that we've pulled together. Also, we're encouraging more local authorities to take that up. We're looking at how we can, uh, make. Park and ride journeys easier. Um, so we can kind of knit together, um, say rail services with that to get the same time, the same kind of ticket, if you like.
The strategy, you'll see that we set out. Shared mobility options, how We set out. Shared mobility options. How that could be used really as part of an integrated transport system in both urban, suburban and in rural areas as well. On on micro mobility. Um, I think. Again, that can play a really important role in the, the menu of options available to people. And we're giving more powers to, um, to local areas, I think through the English Devolution and Community empowerment bill in terms of being able to, to manage shared cycle schemes.
So again, that's bringing that together again. Um, and we've also committed when parliamentary time allows to, uh, regulating e-scooters, but we will be consulting on proposals within the next year so that when that parliamentary time becomes available, we're ready to kind of hit the ground running on that. The other thing I think it's important to mention is, uh, we. Obviously want to make sure that everyone can travel, um, easily. And independently, confidently. And so we've, we've commissioned on the back of the excellent work that, that the select committee did on access denied a review of powered mobility devices.
And that really is it's the first time in 40 years that that has been looked at. And I think that's a really important piece of work. Uh, and the other was park and ride. Park and ride. Um, so yeah, I think that's obviously really important. I saw that in York and in other places. Um, I think that really helps where you've got, um, I think particularly in kind of suburban and rural areas or tourism hot spots, I think York was an example that I, uh, visited, but I think again, local areas are best placed to make make decisions on that and how they and if they expand those facilities.
I think the other bit that we're kind of exploring the national parking platform that we've pulled together. Also, we're encouraging more local authorities to take that up. We're looking at how we can, uh, make. Park and ride journeys easier. Um, so we can kind of knit together, um, say rail services with that to get the same time, the same kind of ticket, if you like.
10:17
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
So just, just on that in a kind of hypothetical scenario with kind of changing local government, um, you've got potentially a railway station that needs expanding its services near to where there was going to be a park and ride in a new town that is now no longer going to be delivered. How do you judge local authorities on that?So, so this is there's a new town in my constituency. Park and ride was part of it with a slip road going on to the A38 that's been taken out.
The park and ride is not going forward. You know, I've introduced the shared mobility hub idea that we've talked a lot about in committee, just as a way of showing the public that there's some option for them to do this. But how is how is the department in particular, with all this devolution going to actually hold local authorities and transport authorities to account when it's modal, multi-modal like that, where you've got, you know, on the other side of the road, a station that needs expanding, plus this kind of road ability to go in on, on the bus.
It feels to me that there's still a lot of big holes that could be fallen into with this join up and ultimately call me a bit naive and a bit optimistic, but an integrated transport strategy tells me that the department is making sure that those bits are joined up. So how do we ensure that you can do that, and how do we hold you to account as elected members?
The park and ride is not going forward. You know, I've introduced the shared mobility hub idea that we've talked a lot about in committee, just as a way of showing the public that there's some option for them to do this. But how is how is the department in particular, with all this devolution going to actually hold local authorities and transport authorities to account when it's modal, multi-modal like that, where you've got, you know, on the other side of the road, a station that needs expanding, plus this kind of road ability to go in on, on the bus.
It feels to me that there's still a lot of big holes that could be fallen into with this join up and ultimately call me a bit naive and a bit optimistic, but an integrated transport strategy tells me that the department is making sure that those bits are joined up. So how do we ensure that you can do that, and how do we hold you to account as elected members?
10:19
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Can I pick up on a couple of other gaps from that very question?So an awful lot of people do, um, drive a car as part of another journey. Um, and also people who are members of car clubs are more likely to use public transport for their other journeys than people who own and drive a car. And for obvious reasons, Zipcars were removed. Zipcar got out of London and they were all over London, and they got out and we asked them and they said, there's no policy in London and there's no policy in in England.
There's no government policy on car share. So why have them if they're not actively encouraged by the government?Park and ride has worked long term in Oxford and York, I think. Um and yet there you've got an example of it being removed, possibly because of some other pressures on the land or whatever. Um, and other examples we've had at other sessions and different inquiries is um pick up and drop off at stations for instance, they're not seen as important in the planning policies.
Um, or if they are, they're so far away that somebody with mobility issues has a heck of a long way to walk from the vehicle to the, um, to the, to the, to the platform. Or we may allow taxis as in black cab taxis, but there's no space for the increasingly growing, uh, growth area of, um, app driven. Um, you know, Uber, etc. they're, they're seen as pariahs, whereas in other jurisdictions around the world, there is a place for Uber, Baltic, etc. to pick up and drop off as well as the, the other kind of cab.
Um, and kiss, kiss and drop or pick up, you know, you pushed further and further away from the station or whatever the interchange is. There's, there's still an awful lot of gaps in policies. Um, for those people who, for those journeys that are parked car or car, this journey, not other journeys. And yet they're not, not touched at all in this strategy. Okay, I.
There's no government policy on car share. So why have them if they're not actively encouraged by the government?Park and ride has worked long term in Oxford and York, I think. Um and yet there you've got an example of it being removed, possibly because of some other pressures on the land or whatever. Um, and other examples we've had at other sessions and different inquiries is um pick up and drop off at stations for instance, they're not seen as important in the planning policies.
Um, or if they are, they're so far away that somebody with mobility issues has a heck of a long way to walk from the vehicle to the, um, to the, to the, to the platform. Or we may allow taxis as in black cab taxis, but there's no space for the increasingly growing, uh, growth area of, um, app driven. Um, you know, Uber, etc. they're, they're seen as pariahs, whereas in other jurisdictions around the world, there is a place for Uber, Baltic, etc. to pick up and drop off as well as the, the other kind of cab.
Um, and kiss, kiss and drop or pick up, you know, you pushed further and further away from the station or whatever the interchange is. There's, there's still an awful lot of gaps in policies. Um, for those people who, for those journeys that are parked car or car, this journey, not other journeys. And yet they're not, not touched at all in this strategy. Okay, I.
10:22
10:22
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So can I. So if in our local transport plan guidance, we have clear guidance to places on shared mobility, we're producing the more detailed guidance that the teams are working on that at the moment. We include guidance on micro mobility and on park and ride. Precisely for this point, we would expect that to be integrated.
10:23
10:23
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, the share, the shared mobility is the is the car club element there. So that is very much set there. I think the other thing that I've seen happening is that, uh, the railway working with local places in places like Darlington, is having a much more engaged discussion about how that station works within the community that it's in, which goes exactly to your points about dropping off parking. Given it serves a rural, a rural hinterland, those kind of things. So I think that is, is, is coming.
And that's where that partnership between GBR and the local authorities is really critical.
And that's where that partnership between GBR and the local authorities is really critical.
10:24
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Yeah, the mechanisms is there. The overall national planning policy is not. Planners generally think public transport. Um they don't think car as part of an integrated journey. That's they've been hard wired. I used to be a planner and a planning committee member. I think others would agree with that. Um and there's a national planning policy framework. I accept that's not your department. But you know, this is about joined up government thinking.
And for the person on the ground trying to make that journey, trying to use their car less, reduce congestion, still needs to, you know, particularly, you know, I use public transport whenever I can, but if I've got a really heavy suitcase, I get a lift or a, or a cab and I think, and if I've got small children. Not anymore, not yet. Um, you know, but those who do, um, you know, the options that are different.
And for the person on the ground trying to make that journey, trying to use their car less, reduce congestion, still needs to, you know, particularly, you know, I use public transport whenever I can, but if I've got a really heavy suitcase, I get a lift or a, or a cab and I think, and if I've got small children. Not anymore, not yet. Um, you know, but those who do, um, you know, the options that are different.
10:27
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
And I think just, you know, going back to the point about the mayoralties versus everybody else, you know, I get the mayoralty piece, like, that's great. It's going to work really well, but everywhere else is on a however many years until that gets delivered timeline, you know, in Devon, they didn't want a mayoralty because of transport issues, which now means we're right at the back of the queue. Well, I had a breakfast this morning with a constituent who described not being able to find parking in Totnes in the neighbouring constituency, because the local council's parking prices are now potentially slightly more expensive than the station.
If we don't have that accountability and that ability to be able to go back to somebody, and at the moment that feels like it needs to be government departments because devolution hasn't happened.
If we don't have that accountability and that ability to be able to go back to somebody, and at the moment that feels like it needs to be government departments because devolution hasn't happened.
10:27
10:27
10:28
10:29
10:30
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Um it is it is in the strategy. I don't think we call it autonomous vehicles. I think it's referred to as self-driving driving cars. So it is in there. And obviously that should complement existing transport networks. And um, and considered as part of, of our vision, I think, excuse me, it highlights, I think that that, uh, automated passenger services, uh, the permitting scheme that we're working on, uh, and I think something like £150 million going into that through our connected and autonomous Mobility Pathfinder programme.
Um, and I'm really genuinely excited about the potentials here for automated vehicles and what they can, they can bring to, to the mix. I think they're going to be an important part, um, of our vision. Um, I don't think that they'll replace um. Assisting transport, but I think they could potentially strengthen it, um, and provide again more options for passengers. Add to that menu of options. And that's why we're trialing those, those commercial. Of automated passenger services.
So we can build that evidence so we can understand and develop the right regulatory, uh, approach to it, but the rollout will be, will be gradual. I think that's important to point out as we test those new services and how that, that interplays with the rest of the menu, if you like.
Um, and I'm really genuinely excited about the potentials here for automated vehicles and what they can, they can bring to, to the mix. I think they're going to be an important part, um, of our vision. Um, I don't think that they'll replace um. Assisting transport, but I think they could potentially strengthen it, um, and provide again more options for passengers. Add to that menu of options. And that's why we're trialing those, those commercial. Of automated passenger services.
So we can build that evidence so we can understand and develop the right regulatory, uh, approach to it, but the rollout will be, will be gradual. I think that's important to point out as we test those new services and how that, that interplays with the rest of the menu, if you like.
10:33
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Great. Thank you. And the strategy applies only to transport in England. How are you working with the devolved governments to ensure that the UK has a nationally integrated transport network?So, for example, how will you ensure that cross-border journeys between England and Scotland or Wales will be integrated as well?
10:33
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah, so you're quite right. This strategy applies applies to England. Um because many of the transport powers are devolved to uh to other areas, but we are working closely, have worked very closely with governments in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales to make sure that people can obviously travel throughout the UK. And officials have engaged extensively with their counterparts in the Welsh and Scottish governments, in particular during the development of of this this strategy. Um and of course we'll continue to do that through the implementation.
And we back that up obviously with, with cold hard cash as well. Um, so six new stations in, in South Wales, in the south west main line, and that's £302 million on rail enhancements. Um, over the next four years. And then £48 million on the core Valley Lines network. We're also working with Welsh and Scottish governments on um, on rail reform obviously. Investing nearly £8.5 million in a feasibility study for the, the A75. I remember having that conversation with the Scottish Transport.
Secretary um I think look fundamentally I think all, all those governments, all, all governments share the same, the same goal to get those better connections, uh, better journeys and better experience, I think for everyone.
And we back that up obviously with, with cold hard cash as well. Um, so six new stations in, in South Wales, in the south west main line, and that's £302 million on rail enhancements. Um, over the next four years. And then £48 million on the core Valley Lines network. We're also working with Welsh and Scottish governments on um, on rail reform obviously. Investing nearly £8.5 million in a feasibility study for the, the A75. I remember having that conversation with the Scottish Transport.
Secretary um I think look fundamentally I think all, all those governments, all, all governments share the same, the same goal to get those better connections, uh, better journeys and better experience, I think for everyone.
10:36
10:36
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Just you mentioned park and rides a couple of times. And um, my question is slightly broader than that in the, in the Rural Buses report, we wrote some recommendations around new models for local authorities to consider. Park the phrase models, new stuff, new new infrastructure. That's not a new road or a new railway line. Um, or even a new park and ride. It might well be a new thing. These mobility hubs could potentially be quite big, new things that may by chance be somewhere that at the moment has got no public transport.
But it makes sense to create connectivity, you know, in that place. Is there provision, do you think is there enough bandwidth within the strategy to be able to support local authorities in saying, actually, we don't need to put a bus stop next to this train station, we need to put a whole new thing in this place, because that is the best way to provide access into the public transport network. Could you see a future where that, that, that, that actually was possible within the scope of this strategy?
But it makes sense to create connectivity, you know, in that place. Is there provision, do you think is there enough bandwidth within the strategy to be able to support local authorities in saying, actually, we don't need to put a bus stop next to this train station, we need to put a whole new thing in this place, because that is the best way to provide access into the public transport network. Could you see a future where that, that, that, that actually was possible within the scope of this strategy?
10:38
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think three brings together all the right people. Yeah. And we're maximizing the opportunity for that to happen through bus franchising through through the work on rail reform. We have things like the bus centre of excellence, etc. so we can learn from each other as well. And we backed that up with multi-year funding, £3 billion over the next three years for buses, etc. and they can spend that in any way they see fit to improve services. So I would encourage creative thinking around that and thinking outside the box, I would certainly support.
10:39
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
So the conditions are there, the funding is there, but we might need to try and find, I mean, particularly in rural areas where I think the model doesn't work at the moment. We've spent a long time trying to find a way, which it does. We can't find one particularly affordably. Um, will there potentially be a mini Switzerland equivalent for rural areas, do you think in the future?Conrad.
10:40
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So I mean, I think the, the, the mini Switzerland example is a is an opportunity to see what works and then share some of that best practice. There's pockets of really good practice in rural, rural areas. In many places. One of the things we're trying to do is work actually with Transport East and a national centre for rural. Rural Transport Centre of Excellence, to really make sure we can share that best practice between places and encourage the sort of ideas you may be talking about, the sort of ideas that a number of people have come to us saying, are there ways we can better integrate our demand responsive transport with our bus services like they're doing in in the South West, all those sorts of things?Let's share that best, best practice.
And we're very keen to support, support, support that. And ministers have recently, you know, provided some multi-year funding for that.
And we're very keen to support, support, support that. And ministers have recently, you know, provided some multi-year funding for that.
10:42
10:42
10:43
10:43
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Right. Okay. Um, who's local delivery. Um. Alex or Daniel. I think, um, okay. Uh, delivering good integration will rely on collaboration between government, local authorities, transport operators, providers of infrastructure and services, and probably many more people as well. What role do you plan for your department to have in supporting this collaboration and ensuring that it supports the ambitions set out in your strategy?
10:44
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So I think, um, our job is to, to set a clear direction, um, and make sure that, that those local leaders that we talked about have the powers, the funding and, and the tools that they need to deliver. Uh, what was clear from local authorities is that they told us they want that clear national vision, uh, to guide that delivery. And I think that's what, what better connected gives them. And that's why our new transport plan guidance, um, has aligned with, with this strategy as well and gives those local councils, um, uh, more advice on, on collaborating.
With partners and the transport sector. But I think as we've said before, many times, I think the truth is that that transport works best when it's, it's, um, shaped locally. Um, and what works in a big city, as we've said just a moment ago, won't necessarily work in a rural or coastal town. Um, local leaders are best placed to make those decisions, which is why we're putting that local, that, that more powers more funding into, into local hands so we can get those better connections to jobs, housing, etc..
Um, but we've also crucially important to say, again, moving away from that short term competitive bidding process that we kind of had, under the previous government so that local areas can really plan with greater confidence into the future.
With partners and the transport sector. But I think as we've said before, many times, I think the truth is that that transport works best when it's, it's, um, shaped locally. Um, and what works in a big city, as we've said just a moment ago, won't necessarily work in a rural or coastal town. Um, local leaders are best placed to make those decisions, which is why we're putting that local, that, that more powers more funding into, into local hands so we can get those better connections to jobs, housing, etc..
Um, but we've also crucially important to say, again, moving away from that short term competitive bidding process that we kind of had, under the previous government so that local areas can really plan with greater confidence into the future.
10:46
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10:48
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Can I just quickly. Um cross borough issues. Um so in my neighbouring constituency there's a train station where the borough boundary goes through the middle of the train station. Um, I'm currently having some issues where um TfL buses going to Kent County Council, and there's an argument going on between the two. Um, so, so where in the guidance is there guidance and jurisdiction on, on how those issues should be resolved between different transport operators in terms of TfL and Kent County Council in that case, but equally, going back to the planning guidance, where you have um, a train station that's in two local authorities.
10:48
10:49
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Let me, let me have, have a go. So look, I think the expectation when we're talking to TfL or places, and indeed in the guidance is that places work together to resolve issues for for people. And those boundary issues are wherever we put the boundary, it's going to be wrong. It sounds like in the example you're talking about, it's it's particularly wrong if it's right in across.
10:49
10:50
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
We, you know, we, we will encourage places to work together. Uh, sometimes we will convene places on a more regional, regional basis. So, you know, to give, give, give an example, uh, some of the, the work we're doing on, uh, northern powerhouse rail, different example, uh, looking at what the needs are of the different, the different, the different areas. Uh, but these are, these are difficult issues. And I'm afraid I don't have the answer on your specific.
10:50
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Hugely common. Um, and, and I think Rebecca's example, you've got a whole new town that could cover more than one area. Sometimes these issues cover a regional areas. Well, having a strategy in leaving a lot of it down to local decision makers, some of whom get it. But um, is there not an opportunity?I sort of go back to my previous question. Is there not an opportunity for these great aspirations to feed into more statutory provision, such as, um, the national planning policy framework that then filters through to regional and local, because then they become material considerations against which applications have to be considered.
10:52
10:52
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
The other organisations which um, have been sort of apparently left out. Apologies, I'm jumping ahead. But while on this topic, um GBR and, and Highways England both have critical roles in delivering and they have big budgets and um, you know, these are big organisations which, you know, have far more power and clout than many local authorities to deliver opportunities for integration. Why aren't they more strongly referenced in in the strategy?
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10:56
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So I and my colleagues spent a huge amount of time with national highways and with today, Network Rail and the DFT operator and the companies with within that, uh, and places to make sure we are properly having that discussion about how you make sure this really joins up. For example, you can't possibly think about developing a new town without thinking how it links to the national rail network, the strategic road network, and integrated local transport. You need all three of those.
10:57
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10:57
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
That's the point, to get some clout in the statements. Now, not so much integrated transport, but I've just I've just had a reply from the Secretary of State on the removal of a motorway service area from the Lower Thames Crossing. Despite that, the pressure on HGV safe parking and services on that whole quadrant of of of South east England, um for those services. And her answer is there's no requirement to provide one. Therefore we don't need to. And it's like this is what exactly the kind of example about if there's no requirement local authorities won't insist on it in their decisions.
Um Highways England or, or GBR or whoever won't provide it. It won't feed into the, the, the requirement of a franchise for a bus company, etc. if there's not some level of directedness as there is in Switzerland, um, then isn't this just worthy words which will only be picked up by those who get it in the local area.
Um Highways England or, or GBR or whoever won't provide it. It won't feed into the, the, the requirement of a franchise for a bus company, etc. if there's not some level of directedness as there is in Switzerland, um, then isn't this just worthy words which will only be picked up by those who get it in the local area.
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11:02
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
That's important. Obviously, as I said, you're not we're not only backing local leaders up with that, that assurance of multi-year funding, uh, but moving away from that, that short term competitive nature, um, I mean, £21 billion, uh, going in, uh, over the spending review period is, is nothing to be sniffed at. But we're also, we've also published under the local um, transport plan guidance, uh, to help councils kind of build a more joined up transport network and make the most of that investment. Um, but as I said, funding is only part of that, that picture, uh, we're also helping them to build the skills and the capacity and the expertise that they need to deliver.
Uh, that's why we're supporting things like the bus centre of Excellence, uh, and supporting the work of active travel England, um, who are helping local authorities to learn from each other, to scale up access that practical help and support, and also, I guess other organisations like the Urban Transport Group as well.
Uh, that's why we're supporting things like the bus centre of Excellence, uh, and supporting the work of active travel England, um, who are helping local authorities to learn from each other, to scale up access that practical help and support, and also, I guess other organisations like the Urban Transport Group as well.
11:03
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Okay. That's helpful. And I think that capacity point is really important because every time I speak to my local council, they speak to me about the shortage that they've got of planners. And I know that some of this is my responsibility, but obviously it's really crucial for delivering this transport, the aims of this transport strategy as well. So yeah, maybe if you could speak about specifically that shortage of planners and what the plan is to deal with that.
11:04
11:04
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So we've tried to do a number of things. We've tried to. Firstly, when we were in discussions and working with the Treasury and Mhclg in the context of the spending review to make sure that £21 billion includes resource funding so you can employ people going to what the minister said. Uh, we've had lots of discussions, both through the urban transport Group, but also organisations like adept around what places need and the support they they need. The sorts of things we're doing.
So sometimes it's directly funding posts. We're trying to use centres of excellence to share best practice and toolkit. So we've got a bus centre of excellence. We've talked about the rural centre of excellence. We've tried to make sure there are common analytical tools people can draw on, and data sets, things like this connectivity tool, which can be really helpful for transport planners. So we tried to lift some of the burden. And then I guess the final thing I would, I would say is in some cases, we also we use Secondments and try and target things.
So I was in I was in Bristol, Bristol last week and the, the combined authority in that case was saying to me how much value they'd had. We'd managed to. Someone from active travel England there to really help them think about their active travel work. So that's that kind of suite of measures. And I think this is a common challenge that we are working on with Mhclg and with and with place places because we I think we recognise this is this is this is difficult.
So sometimes it's directly funding posts. We're trying to use centres of excellence to share best practice and toolkit. So we've got a bus centre of excellence. We've talked about the rural centre of excellence. We've tried to make sure there are common analytical tools people can draw on, and data sets, things like this connectivity tool, which can be really helpful for transport planners. So we tried to lift some of the burden. And then I guess the final thing I would, I would say is in some cases, we also we use Secondments and try and target things.
So I was in I was in Bristol, Bristol last week and the, the combined authority in that case was saying to me how much value they'd had. We'd managed to. Someone from active travel England there to really help them think about their active travel work. So that's that kind of suite of measures. And I think this is a common challenge that we are working on with Mhclg and with and with place places because we I think we recognise this is this is this is difficult.
11:07
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Well, active travel England provide that because it's an integral part of their funding mechanism with local authorities to provide that capacity building as well as the actual money to implement the schemes. And I think that I don't know to what extent that philosophy of funding goes, particularly if we've had so many cutbacks in specialist transport roles in local government over the last 15 or more years. Um, you know, does that um. Does that way of working that active travel England use also roll into other areas of support from the department?
11:08
11:08
11:08
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
I agree, and it's definitely not just an MHC LG problem, if I may. That's really relevant to transport delivery as well. Carry on. On the funding then Minister you were talking about this 21 billion that's being made available. Do you think at the moment there's sufficient autonomy for Ltas to make their own judgements about how that funding is best utilized?Uh.
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11:11
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So we've just increased all the thresholds as part of the the outcome from the last spending review. So if you're a. Combined authority area, the threshold is currently 200 million, which is the point where we look at whether we need to put things through an approval process in the Department and the Treasury. And it's 50 million for other local transport areas. That's not an absolute. It's. It's then a judgement on the complexity. The thing that mainly drives us really need to focusing on particular interventions is if they interact, going to something I think the chair said earlier with the National Road Network or the National Rail Network, so that you end up with that integrated system, the requirements actually are the same for business cases, whether we're involved or not, which is a set of requirements set out in the Green Book, which the Treasury did a lot of work last year to try and simplify and make more streamlined for for places.
And that's an area where, again, I think we're very interested in how can we help people develop those business cases for the biggest and most complex schemes?
And that's an area where, again, I think we're very interested in how can we help people develop those business cases for the biggest and most complex schemes?
11:13
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
From me on this issue of local delivery. So I've got constituents who work in North Manchester Hospital, and at the moment, due to lack of integrated transport, they can't reach their employment and obviously integrated transport to work shouldn't really be a nice to have. It should be available. How are you going to ensure that local authorities collect data so appropriate data in a suitable format?And so partly so that we can identify acute local need?
11:14
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think in terms of data to ensure consistency. We've kind of set clear requirements um to local authorities through a memorandum of understanding, um that that kind of governs that the consolidated funding package that we talked about. Um, and that includes obviously local transport outcome frameworks, which have the key metrics that we talked about. Um, the majority of which are national data sets. And we're going to standardise that, that, um, that process capturing that, that, that data through a new digital hub, I think is the plan, um, for local authorities alongside that kind of financial reporting.
And I think we've recently published the transport. Got transport data, data action plan. Um, and. With a view of creating that clear and consistent view of, of data standards.
And I think we've recently published the transport. Got transport data, data action plan. Um, and. With a view of creating that clear and consistent view of, of data standards.
11:15
11:15
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So the way we've designed the portal is to actually make it much easier. Previously, we collected data and people had to do it, did it in lots of different ways. We tried to create a single portal and use much more national data sets, which don't require them to do as much. So it should it should be a lower burden for better integrated data. That's at the local level. The other thing we're doing is we've currently got a what we call an open data marketplace for both rail and buses.
And one of the things we've committed to in the strategy is to turn that into an overall sort of integrated open market data database, which should allow people to better understand some of those elements. And of course, our connectivity tool will allow you to look at a particular location and understand its connectivity. So that's a real tool for for local local partners.
And one of the things we've committed to in the strategy is to turn that into an overall sort of integrated open market data database, which should allow people to better understand some of those elements. And of course, our connectivity tool will allow you to look at a particular location and understand its connectivity. So that's a real tool for for local local partners.
11:17
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
If I could just add, I mean, I think that the collection of data in a more standardized way through that portal will, will be hopefully helpful for local authorities, slightly easier for them to, to, to manage and work with, but also helpful for us, obviously, as we hold local authorities to account through the, through the outcomes frameworks and that more consistent data will enable us to, to spot where there are the sorts of issues that that that members of the committee have have raised this morning, particularly sort of cross border issues. We'll be able to have a look at this and sort of identify where that might be, might be an issue, and consider whether we need to take any action with the authorities involved to to sort of move things in a better direction.
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11:18
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Pushing on this local delivery a bit more. It feels like there's lots of moving parts in government at the moment, and you've effectively got, you know, that's understating it. And I'm talking specifically about transport. You know, let's ignore everything else. And um, you know. I appreciate I come across as quite cynical, but it's because I've sat on these committees and heard it all. And Alex has shared with me this push a lot on the non authorities.
You know, we often ask questions around that. Now obviously LGR is trying to replace a two tier systems, but actually what we currently have still are two tier local authorities. So so you know what is the and forgive me, but it sounds a little bit like the department keeps pushing back saying, well, it's fine because it's all going to be done at a local authority level. But ultimately, what a mayoral authority can do versus what a, you know, one of four potential councils in Devon can do is going to be very different in terms of staffing capacity, capability, Capacity, capability, particularly taking in the Network Rail.
You know, the GBR, the highways piece and having to think with those really big ticket items. Like I think buses is the easy bit. And, you know, because they already do that. But these other big pieces, you know, how are you actually as a department going to make sure that everyone the country can keep up?And when do we actually expect to see this rolled out across the whole country?Because I think time and time again, we get the big cities come in and show us what is working, which is brilliant.
They're doing a really great job, but it feels a lot like we're in danger of the rest of the country being left behind. And so, A, how are you going to support in that transition time?But B, when are we actually going to see this delivered?Like, what is the aim for that end date?
You know, we often ask questions around that. Now obviously LGR is trying to replace a two tier systems, but actually what we currently have still are two tier local authorities. So so you know what is the and forgive me, but it sounds a little bit like the department keeps pushing back saying, well, it's fine because it's all going to be done at a local authority level. But ultimately, what a mayoral authority can do versus what a, you know, one of four potential councils in Devon can do is going to be very different in terms of staffing capacity, capability, Capacity, capability, particularly taking in the Network Rail.
You know, the GBR, the highways piece and having to think with those really big ticket items. Like I think buses is the easy bit. And, you know, because they already do that. But these other big pieces, you know, how are you actually as a department going to make sure that everyone the country can keep up?And when do we actually expect to see this rolled out across the whole country?Because I think time and time again, we get the big cities come in and show us what is working, which is brilliant.
They're doing a really great job, but it feels a lot like we're in danger of the rest of the country being left behind. And so, A, how are you going to support in that transition time?But B, when are we actually going to see this delivered?Like, what is the aim for that end date?
11:22
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So I think you've still seen. You know, increased funding, more consolidated funding across the board, not just in mayoral authorities. And also obviously things like the bus centre of excellence being an example where we're helping to scale up and share best practice across the board so that all areas can can benefit from this.
11:23
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11:24
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, the the heart of the strategy. Is an understanding that we're moving in a, as you say, lots of moving parts on devolution, which. We are. You know, my sense is this is about us having the right partnerships with places to support them. And they are, as the Minister says, at different places on their on their their their journey. What we have been trying to do, recognising the points you make is, you know, in our in our funding outcomes from the spending review, uh, we fought minister fought very hard to make sure that we had funding growth for those places that were not mayoral combined authorities, that it had resource funding because it goes to a lot of this goes down to the the people, and that gives them more freedom and ability to, to, to, to meet requirements.
In some cases. Uh, I'm sorry to mention buses. Again, we have factored in rurality into our, into our funding solutions because I think that's absolutely vital. And we are funding, you know. Ways of creating communities of practice through things like this rural centre of excellence. So I think this is very much us going on a journey with them. One of my teams, uh, is, uh, a, is a sort of a partnership team. And we work with different places around, around, around the country.
So, um, an example would be, you know, one of my colleagues has spent a lot of time working with Plymouth as they're thinking about how they want to develop their transport in the context of their growth, growth plans. That's just one.
In some cases. Uh, I'm sorry to mention buses. Again, we have factored in rurality into our, into our funding solutions because I think that's absolutely vital. And we are funding, you know. Ways of creating communities of practice through things like this rural centre of excellence. So I think this is very much us going on a journey with them. One of my teams, uh, is, uh, a, is a sort of a partnership team. And we work with different places around, around, around the country.
So, um, an example would be, you know, one of my colleagues has spent a lot of time working with Plymouth as they're thinking about how they want to develop their transport in the context of their growth, growth plans. That's just one.
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11:33
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So. So. Absolutely. Uh, so in the published strategy, we intentionally chose examples from around England to share best best practice, but the team producing the strategy spent a lot of time both engaging internationally, but critically also with, uh, academic. Papers and other things that gave international insights, uh, sort of things that we learnt, learnt from. So really looking at places like Dijon and Freiburg in terms of, uh, how transport planning development have been really effectively brought together, uh, actually trying to understand the French model around how in a devolved context, mayors are able to really drive that integrated planning.
Uh, looking at the reliability of public transport interchanges, those kind of areas. Um, I think what we concluded is there wasn't a, as you'd expect, there wasn't a single model that we could just take from one place and copy. When I used to work on rail, we often looked at the Japanese example or, uh, Hong Kong or Singapore as really good examples, but you couldn't just lift their models because they had different histories and different contexts. But there was definitely learning that we could take from, from, from, from that, um, I think just to give some more specific, uh, sort of examples, I think in Dijon, the way in which you got that really real sense that people had a hugely integrated, uh, journey in a, a small, a small city.
Uh, if you look at the work that we drew on in the strategy based on Switzerland, that's a really another key example for how we might tackle some of those rurality challenges that we talked, talked about, but sort of on top of all of that, I would say more generally in our work, when we've been looking at bus reform, we've looked at the model in Jersey, we've talked to some of our operators who also run concessions in places like Australia to learn from what they've they've been been doing. My colleagues who work on rail have spent a lot of time looking at the European rail examples, including how you really integrate that.
And indeed, our Secretary of State is just back, I think, from China and Japan, where she was looking very much at how you can drive integrated integrated transport. I think she visited a number of sort of integrated transport hubs. So very much in our in our thinking and work.
Uh, looking at the reliability of public transport interchanges, those kind of areas. Um, I think what we concluded is there wasn't a, as you'd expect, there wasn't a single model that we could just take from one place and copy. When I used to work on rail, we often looked at the Japanese example or, uh, Hong Kong or Singapore as really good examples, but you couldn't just lift their models because they had different histories and different contexts. But there was definitely learning that we could take from, from, from, from that, um, I think just to give some more specific, uh, sort of examples, I think in Dijon, the way in which you got that really real sense that people had a hugely integrated, uh, journey in a, a small, a small city.
Uh, if you look at the work that we drew on in the strategy based on Switzerland, that's a really another key example for how we might tackle some of those rurality challenges that we talked, talked about, but sort of on top of all of that, I would say more generally in our work, when we've been looking at bus reform, we've looked at the model in Jersey, we've talked to some of our operators who also run concessions in places like Australia to learn from what they've they've been been doing. My colleagues who work on rail have spent a lot of time looking at the European rail examples, including how you really integrate that.
And indeed, our Secretary of State is just back, I think, from China and Japan, where she was looking very much at how you can drive integrated integrated transport. I think she visited a number of sort of integrated transport hubs. So very much in our in our thinking and work.
11:38
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Okay. It's good to hear that there has been, uh, that international insight. I could just push you a bit further as to why the document was so domestically focused. I mean, yes, everywhere has different contexts, but you could say there's not much point, including best practice because different parts of England are different from other bits. You know, we're not we're not an alien species here in Britain. And I think a lot of a lot of people were particularly that we've heard evidence from would generally say that we're not necessarily awash with good practice within this country.
On integrated transport. So was that not a missed opportunity to put a bit more in there about about international good practice?
On integrated transport. So was that not a missed opportunity to put a bit more in there about about international good practice?
11:39
11:40
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Okay. I mean, many of them are come from different cultures and different organisational setups. But one of our witnesses said that, um, we're set up, I think in the context of rail and bus companies, uh, where with the Competition markets Authority, um, companies are expected to compete against each other. I think they said, whereas in Switzerland, where you've got hundreds of um. Private companies providing public transport, um they are expected to collaborate and expected to integrate. Is there not an opportunity there.
11:41
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think there is an opportunity there. I think actually public ownership of the railway plus bus franchising will get us almost all the way there. Whether there is still a residual issue, I think we'll need to see and work through. And if there is, we may need to we may need to look at that. But certainly we have not had difficulties when we've been looking at, for example, integrated ticketing trials that I'm aware of that have come, that have come up in this space.
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11:44
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
So again, so, so um sorry there will be London example. So firstly I accept it was the previous government. Um and sorry I was a consultant on this scheme. I just need to say theme park um was across two London boroughs, was across Havering and Barking and Dagenham um with a new train station. So it needed the integration of TfL and both of those. And the train station was built. And then the um the previous privatised train operator accept said we're not going to provide train services here.
Um, so firstly to understand when you've got that cross-border arrangement and um and those train stations etc. provided how that works. Secondly, on the new towns, um one of them again is in my neighbouring barracks at Thamesmead. Um and clearly I accept again a devolved matter to TfL. Um, but the DLR will uh. Terminate there, there'll be an additional stop. So we'll have a new northern bound service, but not a southern bound service. Um so um, so you're only able to get the, the.
The new town north by, by train. You'll have to try and find other means to go south. Um, so really what kind of, what kind of advice and integration is given in those kind of arrangements. A planning applications, you know, more than one planning authority, but also other providers. Um and B that that kind of planning on, on new towns when, when, when you'll be easily able to get out in one direction, but not so easy able to get out in the other.
Um, so firstly to understand when you've got that cross-border arrangement and um and those train stations etc. provided how that works. Secondly, on the new towns, um one of them again is in my neighbouring barracks at Thamesmead. Um and clearly I accept again a devolved matter to TfL. Um, but the DLR will uh. Terminate there, there'll be an additional stop. So we'll have a new northern bound service, but not a southern bound service. Um so um, so you're only able to get the, the.
The new town north by, by train. You'll have to try and find other means to go south. Um, so really what kind of, what kind of advice and integration is given in those kind of arrangements. A planning applications, you know, more than one planning authority, but also other providers. Um and B that that kind of planning on, on new towns when, when, when you'll be easily able to get out in one direction, but not so easy able to get out in the other.
11:48
11:48
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And indeed, the Secretary of State sets out an annual letter to chairs in which she can explicitly make that clear. Going back on your comment there, chair. Absolutely. And I think we've already seen what can be achieved when we bring those organisations together. So if you look at Manchester, for example, there's the, um, Manchester task Force. For transport. And that brought together the department, brought together Network Rail, rail operators and local authorities to look at those, those real performance issues within within Manchester.
I don't know if you want to talk on a specific example I'm not familiar with.
I don't know if you want to talk on a specific example I'm not familiar with.
11:50
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So I'm not hugely familiar with them, but I can I can talk to, to, to both of them. So I think in the example of Beam Park, that's a good example of where you're building a new station, uh, by putting that station in, you are going to impact on both, uh, the rest of the rail services on, on, on the, on the line, but also potentially revenues. And one of the things that I think we need to work on in the context of GBR and I was, is where a new station is built.
And maybe sometimes it needs some initial sort of operating funding for a few years, and then it may actually drive up revenue. How do you really kind of work that through so that this, this works for the place and that requires you to have a network rail, uh, the operator, it will be GBR and time and the local place or places in this case, working together to find a way through that. So I was having very similar discussions, different contexts in the west of England about some of their new stations.
And maybe sometimes it needs some initial sort of operating funding for a few years, and then it may actually drive up revenue. How do you really kind of work that through so that this, this works for the place and that requires you to have a network rail, uh, the operator, it will be GBR and time and the local place or places in this case, working together to find a way through that. So I was having very similar discussions, different contexts in the west of England about some of their new stations.
11:51
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
It is based on voluntary relationships at a local level, and the bits on the edge or the bits that don't want to comply, or the areas that don't want to play games and have a politics of the car is king or whatever. There's no there doesn't seem to be much in the strategy that, uh. Creates more powers as expectations. But there's not not more powers. Sorry, I don't know.
11:52
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
And also is that cross interface, isn't it?You had two planning authorities. Well, I won't go too much into it, but one consented. One didn't. But it got approval in the end. Houses are built, people have moved in. And then the train operating company says, no, we're not actually going to stop here. Um, and you've got 3000 homes and then the train operating company says, no, we won't stop. So so how does that interface, that guidance work between Department of Transport and those local planning authorities and the train operator.
I accept in due course, GBR to ensure that actually happens.
I accept in due course, GBR to ensure that actually happens.
11:54
11:54
11:54
11:55
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11:55
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11:56
11:57
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So um obviously we've said. People first is at the heart of this strategy and understanding, you know, how people actually experience, uh, the transport system, uh, using insight to shape those kind of decisions that we make. And I think that's exactly what we try to do with better connected. As we're developing. We engaged, obviously extensively, as we talked about with passengers, uh, with communities, with experts, including trade unions and transport organisations across the country. As I said, 6000 pieces of, of input came into that.
And the regional roadshows. So we really wanted to stand what is the real tangible barriers preventing people from having those joined up, seamless journeys. So we draw on a wide range. I think Conrad referred to it earlier, a wide range of of data and insights. So the National Travel Survey, User research, behavioural insights, etc., uh, just to better understand, um, how different people experience transport and different ways. Um, and whether it's worth expanding a little bit. We talked on the, the personas.
Uh, Conrad I know, because I think sorry. Ben sorry, might be worth just explaining a little bit more about that and how that can be used to bring that to life almost.
And the regional roadshows. So we really wanted to stand what is the real tangible barriers preventing people from having those joined up, seamless journeys. So we draw on a wide range. I think Conrad referred to it earlier, a wide range of of data and insights. So the National Travel Survey, User research, behavioural insights, etc., uh, just to better understand, um, how different people experience transport and different ways. Um, and whether it's worth expanding a little bit. We talked on the, the personas.
Uh, Conrad I know, because I think sorry. Ben sorry, might be worth just explaining a little bit more about that and how that can be used to bring that to life almost.
11:59
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Absolutely. So, um, this is about understanding, as the minister said, the more of the insight into how people will behave when it comes to making transport choices. I mentioned earlier on the digital twins, uh, project that we're working on and making available to local authorities. That is, that is that is an important element. But, but I work on transport user personas as involved the creation of a number of different personas representing different types of transport users. So, you know, they span a range of age groups, um, have.
Different levels of affluence live in different types of places, urban, rural suburban settings, um, different levels of education. Some are car owners, others are not. And we've been able to use them in some of our own, uh, policy making and thinking and decision making in the department when we've been scoping projects, uh, informing business cases and in public messages and, and campaigns. And this is something that we're able to make available to local areas to, to, to use as a, as a tool to understand behaviour as well.
So it's about taking the sort of more sort of hard edged data, if you like that, that transport systems and operators produce, that digital twins produces and putting more of that sort of public personal empathy around things and understanding how people in individual circumstances will actually behave and respond to transport interventions.
Different levels of affluence live in different types of places, urban, rural suburban settings, um, different levels of education. Some are car owners, others are not. And we've been able to use them in some of our own, uh, policy making and thinking and decision making in the department when we've been scoping projects, uh, informing business cases and in public messages and, and campaigns. And this is something that we're able to make available to local areas to, to, to use as a, as a tool to understand behaviour as well.
So it's about taking the sort of more sort of hard edged data, if you like that, that transport systems and operators produce, that digital twins produces and putting more of that sort of public personal empathy around things and understanding how people in individual circumstances will actually behave and respond to transport interventions.
11:59
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think another really tangible piece of work will be our work on the transport poverty tool as well. You know, we spoke to people from rural and coastal communities, etcetera, young people not in education, training, etc., low income families, etc. as well to really understand how we how we can use that tool and we'll continue investing in, in social and behavioural research as well, just to continue to push that forward.
11:59
11:59
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I mean, two, two ways. I think it's through the the Social Research we Commission as part of our normal research research work, but it's also critically working with Transport focus to as, as they evolve. To make sure that they are really able to draw on that work they do around customer behaviours. And they do that in a number of ways, some of that surveys, but they also do lots of sort of focus groups and those kind of things. And we really benefit from, from, from those.
I think in the one of the supporting documents to the strategy we set out, for example, a lot of the insight we had gained through that sort of behavioural insight work in developing the strategy. We will continue to, to, to, to, to do that.
I think in the one of the supporting documents to the strategy we set out, for example, a lot of the insight we had gained through that sort of behavioural insight work in developing the strategy. We will continue to, to, to, to, to do that.
11:59
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So I'll just add a little bit more on the transport poverty tool. If it's if it's helpful. So, I mean, this is really a new, uh, piece of work that we are, we're working on at the moment. Uh, we have a, we have a tool, um, we're thinking about the sort of relevant use cases for it with colleagues in, in the department, but across the wider transport sector and indeed across government, with colleagues in Department of Work and Pensions and Education and health and social care.
And what it really does in a nutshell, is enable us to look at an area of population in the country and look at the characteristics of the of the residents of that area, both in terms of their, um, sort of income brackets and their access to different types of transport in terms of what they need to do to, to, to lead, to lead their lives. Um, and it gives us an indication of areas where there is genuine transport poverty. So where in a rural setting, for example, um, if there is a lack of public transport or poor public transport, obviously that leads to people having to use cars.
If we have people who can't afford to use cars, clearly they have, they have they have a sort of degree of transport poverty, um, in a, in a more urban setting, you may find people who don't need to use cars because there's a good public transport offering. But, but it helps us to map what people need in individual areas to access education, health care, employment opportunities, and particularly helps us to look at where disadvantaged groups might be being left out of, um, those, those opportunities because they can't access transport.
And what it really does in a nutshell, is enable us to look at an area of population in the country and look at the characteristics of the of the residents of that area, both in terms of their, um, sort of income brackets and their access to different types of transport in terms of what they need to do to, to, to lead, to lead their lives. Um, and it gives us an indication of areas where there is genuine transport poverty. So where in a rural setting, for example, um, if there is a lack of public transport or poor public transport, obviously that leads to people having to use cars.
If we have people who can't afford to use cars, clearly they have, they have they have a sort of degree of transport poverty, um, in a, in a more urban setting, you may find people who don't need to use cars because there's a good public transport offering. But, but it helps us to map what people need in individual areas to access education, health care, employment opportunities, and particularly helps us to look at where disadvantaged groups might be being left out of, um, those, those opportunities because they can't access transport.