Education Committee and Work and Pensions Committee

Tuesday 14th July 2026

(began 2 weeks ago)

Share Debate
Watch Live
Skip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
10:00
10:01
10:02
10:02
None Portrait Speaker 1
-

Thank you.
10:02
10:02
10:03
None Portrait Speaker 3
-

Well, perhaps I could start, um, you will know that in the Labour manifesto that we were elected on in 2024, we had a clear commitment to tackling child poverty. And within a few weeks of coming into government, the Prime Minister set up the task force around child poverty. Now, uh, chair, you've. Rightly highlighted one of the headline figures that has been discussed a lot, but I think it's fair to say the child poverty strategy is a ten year strategy. We recognise rightly highlighted one of the headline figures that has been discussed a lot, but I think it's fair to say the child poverty strategy is a ten year strategy.

We recognise set up the task force around child poverty. Now, uh, chair, you've. Rightly highlighted one of the headline figures that has been discussed a lot, but I think it's fair to say the child poverty strategy is a ten year strategy. We recognise there's 4 million children currently in poverty in this country, about 1.9 million are in deep poverty. Is a very big job to do in tackling child poverty. We need to do something straight away, but we also need a much longer run at dealing with some of the drivers of child poverty.

What we've found from the task force, and obviously that was that produced the strategy last December alongside the monitoring and evaluation documents and the evidence pack, was that the quickest way of moving 550 thousand children out of poverty was to remove the two child limit that had been brought in by previous governments?We think that that will lift about 450,000 children out of poverty by the end of this Parliament. If you combine that with some of the other measures around free breakfast clubs, around the entitlement to free school meals for all families on Universal Credit, which will come into operation in September this year, we get to 550 000.

And the key thing about that measure, that number, is it's the largest number of children that have ever been lifted out of poverty in a parliament. So I think that is ambitious. Actually. I think that's very ambitious, but it's not the full extent of what we want to do. And that's why the strategy is a ten year strategy. It's not just about the DWP or education, it's about a cross-government approach. So you will know alongside our strategy, we've seen the homelessness strategy because we know housing plays an enormous part in child poverty and families that live in poverty.

You will know we've done lots around employment to get and encourage parents into work. So whilst I accept that 550 is the start, it's certainly not the end. And I would certainly say it is ambitious and we should be proud of what we will deliver in this Parliament.
10:05
10:05
10:06
10:06
None Portrait Speaker 3
-

So the task force looked at how they could do that, how they could actually make sure that we were not just dealing with the children. It might be the easiest to move just over the line, but to get and drill down into those most disadvantaged children. So we have two headline measures. We have the relative, um, low income after housing costs, which is the universally accepted, standard way of measuring poverty. And we've also got a second headline measure, and that's around, um, deep material poverty.

And we, we did work with the, the LSE around what the actual factors should be within that, that headline metric. So things like children having access to good nutritious food, fruit and vegetables, children having access to warm clothing or clothing that fits. Um, having, having a clean, um, damp free home. Those are some of the measures within that deep material poverty that we will be looking at as well. And I think that will allow us then to have a much richer sense of what's going on and focus on those who are the most disadvantaged.

Those are our two headline measures, but we also have things like the household households be, um, households. Average income. Thank you. And I knew I was going to stumble on that one. And the Family Resources survey, which also give a richer sort of context about what's happening with families in terms of perhaps savings debts, uh, use of food banks. So we've got a range of, um, um, material which will help us understand what's happening and whether the policy decisions that are being made across government are actually impacting on those children in the deepest poverty.

We've also got some contextual indicators, which I think Elaine might be able to help us with, and why we've brought forward those contextual indicators. We set out our baseline assessment just last week, and we set out the contextual indicators that we're going to use as well. Elaine, do you want to.
10:08
10:09
10:09
10:09
10:10
10:11
None Portrait Speaker 6
-

I think.
10:11
None Portrait Speaker 1
-

Thank you Jessica.
10:11
10:11
None Portrait Speaker 2
-

Yeah. Um, well, Diana and I are thrilled to have this responsibility. It's a huge honour. And, um. But I don't think it should be read as a lack of enthusiasm from the secretaries of state who have absolutely been leading the way and are extremely engaged in the work that we're doing. Um, but let me just talk through some of the ways in which we're going to drive that cross-government action. So I've just briefly mentioned the inter-ministerial group.

We've met several times now, once officially the Prime Minister has established the group that has got 13 government departments. I think we're even in this room, um, coming together to talk about our accountability on the overall metrics. Um, looking at the contextual indicators and of course, looking at individual policies across government departments. Um, that's going to be a really, really effective forum. It's already proving its worth with some great conversations, colleagues really excited to come and present about how their policies and their departments are going to drive down child poverty.

And it is going to ensure really strong cross-government working. In addition, we've got the new team set up now in the Department for Work and Pensions leading on child poverty, who are already doing a brilliant job. And they're not just servicing the work of the inter-ministerial group, they're also going out to other government departments and making stuff happen. So for example, you know, setting up meetings between Citizens Advice and ministers in dozens to talk about the impact of child poverty and kind of driving this, this kind of cross-governmental activity.

And then thirdly, I'd just mention, you know, we are we have set out a range of really clear accountability metrics because we want to be held to account as a government on our progress on this. So we've got the clear metrics we've got. We've published our baseline report with our intentions around evaluation, reporting, setting up a new study with parents, new longitudinal qualitative study with parents to assess the impact year on year over a fixed ten year period of what our strategy is achieving. And we're publishing every summer, um, our progress.

So, you know, I think I'm really excited both about the ambition, but also the infrastructure that we have created to ensure that ambition becomes the, the future that we, we know it can be.
10:13
10:14
10:15
10:15
10:15
None Portrait Speaker 2
-

Yeah, absolutely. So um so there are 13 um government departments and uh, if I try and list all 13 now it's going to go terribly wrong. Um, but we'll send that to you. Of course, following this meeting for your information. Um, and the remit, um, you know, we've set out in the baseline strategy that we, that we published last week that the three levels at which we want to look at progress on the strategy. The first is on the, on the, on the strategy level, on the metrics and looking as a group at how we are doing on both our relative low income metric and our deep material poverty metric.

So the inter-ministerial group is job is to make sure that we're doing what we need to be doing on both of those. Secondly, at a driver level. So that's looking at, um, you know, the contextual metrics that Elaine has spoken through already that are in the baseline report, but also how that applies in places around the country. So at the last meeting, we had a fantastic open session at the start, as Diane has already discussed. But we had Helen Godwin from the west of England to talk about her brilliant child poverty strategy and how that's manifesting in a specific place.

And so that's really important. And then the third thing that the inter-ministerial group is looking at is, is the individual policy. Um, contribution to driving down child poverty. So, um, you know, in the next meeting, for example, I'm going to be talking about how our best start family hubs policy agenda is going to support children who are living in poverty and help and other government departments are doing the same thing. And also, of course, it's not just about celebrating the things that we're doing, but also that important challenge so that everything that we're doing, policy development across government, there's going to be a team of people.

And our job as co-chairs is to make sure that we're always thinking about what impact that has on children who are living in poverty.
10:17
10:18
10:19
10:19
None Portrait Speaker 3
-

Well, perhaps if I could just say one thing about Scotland to start us off, because Scotland did have or does have targets. You're absolutely right. Which they, as I understand it, have failed to meet in every year. They've had targets. And I think it was just a week or so ago they've decided to review the whole area of targets around child poverty. But just setting that aside for one moment, the task force obviously debated this at length. Now live and I were not on the task force because it was it predates us becoming ministers in our departments.

But I understand there was a full discussion about this and the view that was reached was that targets can play their part, but often they can, as the the chair of the Education Select Committee started off by questioning. They can actually just mean that you're so focused on on moving some children over the line to meet your your particular target and don't actually start to address some of those deep seated problems around why you've got so many children in this country in deep poverty. So the, the idea that the strategy is setting out is this is about delivery.

We're going to be held to account by our two headline metrics. We, as you know, have a statutory duty every year to produce figures around poverty. So we have to do that anyway. We will be judged. People will be able to see what is happening with the drivers that we have in policy to get the numbers down. But the decision was that targets wouldn't necessarily serve our strategy well in because of what I described. There could be two inflexible.
10:21
10:23
None Portrait Speaker 3
-

You know, I am I'm really pleased that we have so many organisations and bodies in this country that care about child poverty, and they want to support the government in seeing its reduction. The strategy has set out the approach we are going to take. I think it's it's worth saying, that across the board, if you talk to any of the ministers who come along to the inter-ministerial group, there is real determination that we are going to turn around the lives of children. So just want to sort of set that again in your mind.

This is something I've been on quite a few inter-ministerial groups in my time, and what I would say is there is a lot of challenge on this group between ministers to ensure that departments are reflecting and thinking about what we've all signed up to around the child poverty strategy. So, I mean, we can go through some of the departments and what they've they've set out. I know Liv will talk about, particularly around, obviously, education and health clear commitments there in housing. I mean, if you talk to Alison McGovern, who was the minister in my role previously and cares passionately about that, I know in her new role in the in Mhclg, she's very focused on the issue of temporary accommodation, bed and breakfast accommodation for families, which is completely inappropriate.

I'm sure we'd all agree with that. The commitment is that no newborn baby should be sent into B&B accommodation. That that's something that I know. Alison is really passionately driving and making sure happens. And I was looking at some statistics recently about the number of families that are going into temporary accommodation, which are really being driven down. Obviously, housing is a really big issue and, you know, decent housing. We've got a commitment, I'm sure you know, of.

Um, I think it's £39 billion around social and affordable housing over the course of the ten years to provide the type of housing that we want families and children to live in. And we've got the 1.5 million homes that we will build as well. So that's just one example around housing that I think could make tangible difference to the outcomes that you're discussing. And I'm sure Liv has many others. She wants to.
10:25
10:26
10:26
10:26
10:27
10:27
10:28
10:28
10:29
None Portrait Speaker 1
-

Well.
10:29
10:29
10:29
10:30
10:30
10:31
10:32
None Portrait Speaker 8
-

Thank you. Thank you.
10:32
10:33
10:33
10:34
10:35
10:35
None Portrait Speaker 2
-

Really, really important question. Thank you. Damien. So, um, we, um, first of all, let me say, we have been so thrilled to be able to work so collaboratively with grassroots organisations, charities, and most importantly of all, people with lived experience of poverty in the creation of this strategy and in the continued continued life of this strategy, we will continue to do that. We've got a commitment at the start of every inter-ministerial group to have open sessions where we will work with those organisations, whether that's mayors or um, local charities or national charities, whatever it may be.

We've got our new longitudinal qualitative study of, of. Parents living in, in poverty or either side of the relative poverty baseline, which will help us get that lived experience voice in. Um, and we're continued to be continue to be really collaborative in the delivery of this on the delivery of local services and in local places. Obviously, that is a critical part of the delivery of the strategy. We're really pleased that, um, you know, in the outcomes framework, for example, child poverty is something which local government are to be, to be looking at.

We've got lots of local authorities that have got child poverty strategies in place, and we continue to work with them to achieve that. Um, you know, there's great examples as of as Helen in the west of England with the child poverty strategy. Um, and, you know, as a kind of government team, we're committed to supporting that in whatever way we can, continuing to amplify the, the, the successes and supporting the delivery of local services.
10:37
10:38
10:39
None Portrait Speaker 10
-

Thank you chair.
10:39
10:39
10:40
None Portrait Speaker 5
-

So the baseline report set out how we're going to monitor it, obviously with the with the metrics and the indicators, but also in there, um, how we're going to evaluate the strategy and the individual policies. Um, the research that we've already kind of started to commission, uh, what we'll be doing around kind of place. And our early thinking on that. Um, and also a kind of call to, to local organisations to, you know, to kind of, I suppose, help us and challenge us around that in terms of how we can evaluate what's going on in individual place, also around kind of we've set out what we're going to do around a process evaluation and talking to different delivery partners.

So, so that's all set out there. But equally, you know, there are we, we work with organizations like, you know, JRF Peter Matuschek is on our academic expert advisory group. You know, they will produce their Assessment resolution Foundation. You know, they produce the same kind of figures as us in terms of projections and things like that. So, you know, there is there is there are lots of organisations who are doing that external scrutiny. And we look at that and, and the expert advisory group that we have has a whole range of academics and people from think tanks who are experts in this area, who also provide kind of scrutiny and challenge to us around the baseline report.

So when we were developing the contextual indicators, we worked with them, got their views on what we were doing. They also share their research and views with us. So we've also got that challenge to the to the work that we're doing as well.
10:41
None Portrait Speaker 11
-

Thank you.
10:41
10:42
None Portrait Speaker 2
-

So thank you. This is a really critical question, Liz. And, um, you know, we were really determined the creation of the strategy that people with lived experience of poverty should be at the heart of its creation. And I think, um, the approach that we took to that was really the fact that we were able to have a foreword to the report written by, um, changing. Members of the Changing Realities group was a real sign of the level of trust and engagement that we built over the, over the course of developing that strategy.

And then, of course, it's also very important to talk to children with experience of poverty. Um, Diana and I had a great visit to a school, didn't we, in Camden where we were talking to children when we published our child's version, child friendly version of the strategy. Um, and we had great conversations with children about the impact of poverty. Of course, eight children in every class approximately live in poverty. Um, and the children's commissioner we've worked with Save the Children and other organisations to ensure that children's voices are really centred in this strategy as well.

Now we will continue to do that. We're committed to continuing that approach right the way through the life of this strategy. Um, I've already mentioned several times the, the new, the new longitudinal qualitative survey that we're going to be doing, which is going to really ensure that we've got that, um, lived experience at the forefront of how we measure what's going on. Um, but we will continue in whatever way we can to, to bring in the voices of, um, of people with experience of poverty as we drive forward and making sure that we're hearing those voices in our inter-ministerial group as well.

And of course, um, that also means recognising the differential impact of poverty on different groups. Um, that's something that's very clearly reflected both in the strategy and in the baseline report. Um, and you know, um, it's also reflected in government policy and lots of different ways to try and tackle that differential impact where we find it.
10:44
10:44
10:44
10:45
10:46
10:46
10:46
10:47
10:48
10:48
10:50
10:50
10:50
10:51
10:52
10:52
10:52
None Portrait Speaker 11
-

Thank you.
10:53
10:53
10:53
10:54
10:54
None Portrait Speaker 2
-

Yes.
10:54
10:55
10:55
10:56
10:56
10:56
10:57
10:57
10:57
10:58
None Portrait Speaker 2
-

Absolutely.
10:58
None Portrait Speaker 11
-

Can I just press you.
10:58
10:59
10:59
10:59
11:00
None Portrait Speaker 2
-

I think.
11:00
None Portrait Speaker 3
-

It's clear that children who are in families where nobody is in work are four times more likely to be in poverty. So we work on the basis that getting people into into work is a good thing. It's good for children, it's good for the family, it's good for the taxpayer, it's good for the British economy. I think there have obviously been increases in the number of of single parents who've gone into employment over recent years, but there's still a lot more to do. And one of the the groups I'm very concerned about are those people with health conditions or disabilities.

And this government isn't just prepared to say, well, you know, you're signed off because you've got a health condition or you've got a disability and just write them off. We think there are lots of people given the right support and opportunity would like to work. So this government is committed to um schemes, employment support schemes like connect to work or work well, which are about getting alongside somebody and really helping them to get back into work. So that's one thing I would say, and I think previous governments have just left people, you know, with no hope.

And I think that's absolutely wrong. And that's part of our broader welfare reform package. I also think there's more that we are doing around supporting perhaps single parents at the moment. I said earlier on about childcare, because that's often a barrier for people to get back into work or get into work in the first place. So you will know in the budget at the end of last year for those families on Universal Credit, we are extending the childcare offer to it was limited to two children.

It's now going to cover all children. That's the 85% of covering costs for childcare. And then we've also changed the flexible support scheme, which is for parents going into work. You can get some upfront childcare costs and we've extended that to people who are returning after maternity or paternity leave or adoption leave.
11:02
11:02
11:03
11:04
11:04
11:05
11:06
11:06
None Portrait Speaker 1
-

Fantastic.
11:06
None Portrait Speaker 4
-

Thank you.
11:06
11:06
11:07
11:09
11:09
11:09
11:10
None Portrait Speaker 1
-

Thank you.
11:10
11:11
11:11
11:12
11:13
11:13
11:13
11:14
11:15
None Portrait Speaker 6
-

Um, thank you Liz. And, um, so first of all, let me say I'm really proud of the huge expansion of childcare that we've overseen. And we inherited a plan with absolutely a pledge with absolutely no plan. And we have delivered a record expansion of childcare. We've now managed, I think, to double government spending on childcare. It's now £9.5 billion. This year. Was half that, 23, 24. And the government is now funding 80% of childcare that's delivered in this country.

There's record numbers of places, there's record numbers of children, um, in in early education. And that is fantastic. And it is saving families, working families, £8,000 a year, which is really, really significant to household budgets. Um, we, um, we also, as you'll be aware, have the L2 entitlement, which we are working hard to drive up, take up of. Um, we have the universal entitlement, we have the universal credit um scheme. That Diana talked about earlier on. Um, and there are lots of different ways that we get, we are trying to encourage and support and also increasing the early years.

Pupil premium is a really important part of what we've done in the early years as well, because that also, and we've seen a huge uptake in that that creates more places and encourages more participation. Um, so across the board, we are doing what we can to support children into childcare, but we are conscious that the system is not how anybody would design it. If you started with a blank piece of paper, it has been developed in a really piecemeal way. Um, it's extremely complex for ministers, let alone for parents.

Um, and we think it's right that we look at that. And so we have established the early Education and childcare review. It's slightly different to the funding consultation which you've mentioned, which is more technical. Look at how we distribute funding. But the Early Education and Childcare review established at the last budget and underway now is asking a really important question, rather than piecemeal additions to the system. What is our end goal?Where do we want to end up?And of course, that means looking at where there are gaps in provision of access to childcare, um, wherever we may find them.

And of course, that means asking the big questions about how the system should be designed because we think instead of just adding things on bit by bit, it's right that at this point in time, having actually by default created a new public service, we fund 80% of childcare in this country. Now we've created a new public service. It's the right time to ask the question, what is the what is the best possible version of that public service could look like?And that's what the Early Education and Childcare review is doing.
11:18
11:18
11:19
11:19
11:19
11:19
11:20
11:20
11:20
11:21
11:22
None Portrait Speaker 1
-

Um.
11:23
None Portrait Speaker 6
-

So, so thank you for that. And thank you for your, um, starting with the recognition of the huge value that both of these schemes will bring. And if I may just briefly say on that, I do think it will be a transformational impact. The free school meals expansion, you know, takes 100,000 children out of poverty. Um, and with free breakfast clubs, you know, it's, it's not just saving parents time and money, but it is also giving children a brilliant soft start to the day.

It helps with attendance. It helps children with special educational needs. There are so many benefits to that. 30 minutes of childcare at the start of the school day that go above and beyond the kind of financial savings and time savings for families. And I'll come on to your your points. Sorry, I like to talk about these policies because they are transformational. Um, but I take your, I take, I take the arguments that you're making, and I would suppose I don't agree with the conclusion that you've come to.

But let me explain. So, um, with breakfast clubs, we have deliberately taken a test and learn approach to make sure that we are asking schools to do something that is possible to do. Um, after the first test and learn phase, we made some decisions, including increasing the funding. So actually the average school gets an additional six and a half grand based on the learnings from the first phase to the, to the start of the national rollout. These are funded. Um, they're funded well, and we are doing whatever we can as a government to support schools in the implementation of them.

Now, of course, the children Well-Being in Schools Act does put, uh, in law the provision. We want all schools, all primary schools to have a free breakfast club by the end of the parliament. And as we drive now forward to, you know, that huge expansion of these free breakfast clubs, we are absolutely determined to give schools the help and support that they need. But we have been doing that. There's more funding, there's resources and support, and we're working very hard to achieve it.

And on on free school meals, you know, again, I would just say there's £1 billion of extra money to pay for the expansion of free school meals. Um, you know, we, we continually look at, um, you know, the free school meals rate to ensure that it's, you know, going up with inflation and is manageable and affordable for schools. Um, and, you know, of course, you know, this is really important, but again, this is new money that's gone into to enable this, this to happen. So I think it's possible to do both.

I'm very grateful to schools for all of the hard work. Um, and you know, I do appreciate, you know, with breakfast clubs that for some schools that may be, um, something which they'll want to take a bit of time to think about how they're going to do. And we want to support them to do that. But, um, but I'm clear that we are giving both the resource and the kind of practical help that schools need to make those policies a success.
11:25
11:26
11:26
None Portrait Speaker 13
-

Thank you.
11:26
11:27
11:27
11:28
11:28
11:29
None Portrait Speaker 1
-

Thank you Darren.
11:29
11:29
11:30
11:31
11:31
11:32
11:33
11:33
11:33
11:34
None Portrait Speaker 3
-

Thank you.
11:34
11:34
11:35
None Portrait Speaker 14
-

Well.
11:35
None Portrait Speaker 7
-

I think that's a very good question. And you're absolutely right. We don't have mayors everywhere, and we have to work, obviously, with local authorities. Um, and, you know, we've got some really good relationships. We know some local authorities are doing excellent work. I think what the strategy is about though, is, is setting a view about for the whole whole of the United Kingdom, recognising there will be differences in different areas, rural, urban mayors, local authorities. And I'm hoping very much that we're going to be able to pull together the things that work, the things that actually can be used as best practice around the country.

But, you know, I'm a Hull MP, so I fully appreciate, you know, the, the issues around disadvantaged and poor kids in my patch are quite different to the, the problems perhaps in your in your patch, but there will be some commonalities as well that we can learn from. So I think we're on a, on a, I mean this is very DWP language. We're on a journey. I think this is the start of the implementation of the strategy. We want to make sure we bring in the experiences of all local authorities, mayors, combined authorities and the devolved governments.

Also, the other thing we've not mentioned, and I just want to say, is around the crisis and resilience funding, which this government has made available to local authorities, because I think that's an important part of local authorities having a pot of money to deal with, building up resilience in their local areas and tackling the particular problems they might have around poverty, particularly, say, food poverty.
11:36
This debate has concluded
Return to start of debate - Return to top of page