Home Affairs Committee

Tuesday 14th July 2026

(began 2 weeks ago)

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14:26
None Portrait Speaker 1
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Your background.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Thank you. So I'm been a police officer for approaching 39 years. I joined straight from university and found a vocation I truly loved serving the public to do something which brought meaning to my life and make a difference to the society I lived in. Um, that gave me a really significant work ethic to do better and do more. And I was fortunate enough to be chief of two forces, um, formerly Hampshire, Canterbury, Hampshire, and the Isle of Wight, uh, where I.

Think I set out a track record of being innovative and progressive, particularly around technology. We were the first big force globally to introduce a personal issue, body worn video. And that certainly spread across England and Wales very quickly. But we also were the first force to mobilize using digital data. I became the chief of Avon and Somerset, which was the first force I joined, actually, which was a great honour. And the sixth chief in four turbulent years, which gave me some explicit challenges to address that I may well get around to talking to.

But, um, I think what was notable there is the force improved under HMRC from being a pretty distressed, actually, in terms of what it was offering the public, um to, to secure in gradings of good, good and outstanding, which was pretty much at the top of the pile in 2020. One of the things I'm most proud of is, is reconnecting the workforce, to the communities, but also becoming particularly progressive around data, using data insight to help everyone decide what we should do differently, better, or indeed even stop. Stop doing.

I've been in the College of Policing for five years now, heading it up, responding to a fundamental review that looked at the purpose of the college. Um, some some critical observations in that fundamental review, obviously, which I'm happy to answer questions on. But my, my, my vision for it was to make it relevant to what matters most to our communities and policing, make it dynamic enough to keep up with the sector and sometimes lead to sector, and then critically, for an institution that that actually needs to be a professional body for policing to connect it to the sector.

And we've, we've, um, we've done some, I would say some, some really helpful stuff. Uh, we have taken policing on occasions to places that it needed to go, but certainly didn't want to. And I move on now to why do I want the job?I think that gives me a unique insight into both leading from within the sector and in partnership with it. I do understand where it needs to go, the need for aspects of performance and leadership and reform to deliver better for the public, and I think that I can bring that experience and objectivity in line with my passion for public service.

I still feel as enthusiastic about policing as I did when I joined the police in 1987, and I believe that I can help make a real difference for our communities.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Okay, thanks.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Uh, I have looked at what the Metropolitan Police are doing with it. Um, and effectively, I'm going to put this in layman's terms. Now, they had federated brackets connected, lots of legacy databases, largely for internal police use, which otherwise weren't even accessible as a single database, never mind a connected series of databases and discovered insight which they otherwise would have been blind to. Um, and so, for instance, um, connecting lawful business monitoring of work phones with door entry exit and what they, what they'd found was a number of officers and members of staff that they ought to be talking to about what they were doing.

Now, actually, I very much support that federation of data. Um, that is something I know the NHS has um, has experienced, has experimented with, probably rolled out, I think I'm being conservative saying experiment. That is actually what I did in Avon and Somerset. So I connected 30 different databases and I was able to understand officer workloads, what was hurting, what was working, um, how I should change my processes where leadership wasn't working. And even going back to, I started this work in 2017.

Um, officer burnout. Officer, officer burnout can be seen as in proximity to malpractice and corruption because one of the reasons people go down a corrupt route is, is actually, they start to lose their love of the vocation. So I think I can do this. Why not?And actually, um, what, what we found was, um, information on um, recurring and repeated, um, sick days, use of powers, something that is really important critically, officers that were never switching their body worn video camera on.

Now, if that aligns to some of these other indicators, the supervisor ought to know about that and they ought to do something. So in terms of what the met were doing with Palantir, I am entirely supportive of the Federation of Data and the gathering ethically of insight, so that policing can do better for the public at lower cost, 100% now. And I urged the commissioner to, um, uh, be as progressive with his data protection to protect victims of crime as he as he was to, um, assuring the integrity of his workforce.

The big question is, who does it?And, and there is there is a debate. I've run some work on it myself that there are other means of federating the data and gaining that insight. And they should be tested through open and ethical procurement practices and making no comment about what they have or haven't done there. What I will be absolutely clear with you, Paul, is, is that policing is barely in the foothills of data insight. And I saw that this committee asked, um, the person who could be my predecessor and being cautious about what you recommend and respectful, um, if you had a magic wand, what would he do?And I thought, that's a good question.

One of the things that I would love to do would be to federate the data that policing holds across England and Wales, because, you know, we could do such a better job of preventing crime, catching criminals and managing integrity within our workforce. So the vast majority of police officers, staff, not to mention fire and rescue, are hugely committed to their vocation of policing. What they dislike more than anything is someone dropping their shoulders on the public. And we as leaders. And HMI is a very powerful system.

Leader here, have got a responsibility to use all of our ingenuity ethically to do better, at lower cost, because we're all taxpayers and there isn't extra money around. So I actually think Data Data Federation is such a rich vein, um, if managed appropriately to improve policing.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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When I was chief in the Somerset. Well I mean you're a peer in those terms and uh it's a regret of um my term that we didn't spread it further, but rest assured, I showed what I had to the Home Office, to the policing Minister, Kit Malthouse, to every chief constable in England, Wales, bar none. And Scotland and Northern Ireland. Um and sir Tom Winter came to my establishment and looked at it and they all said, I want that um now, now actually it intrigues me why that didn't happen.

And I think this is on me. Had I been more rigorous about its testing and evaluation rather than just getting on with my job, I might have made it stick better. And that's a lesson I've taken into the College of Policing. Um, I think one of the other reasons is that policing just didn't have the technical expertise to do that. And the people in closest proximity to the chief constables advising them would say, well, that's not possible. And, and actually, if I indulge myself a bit, why did I do it?It's not it's not because I'm some sort of visionary genius.

Everything I've done is through listening to the workforce, listening to the public and trying to do better. So the reason that I introduce body worn video personally in in Hampshire and the Isle of Wight after a trial was because the sergeant said, we're getting recorded on cameras. I think we can do better. And I said, prove it. And we work with Portsmouth University to prove it. Technology, by the way. 510% of the of the trick or the difficulty is procuring this stuff.

90% is a leadership and culture. You wrap around it. I'm sure the committee very experienced. You know that. So the reason I. I stumbled across this data issue and even the Somerset is that when I was um vaccine my mind in 2005 thinking I'd like to become a chief officer. What do I need to be really good at?It was close in the aftermath of the murder of Holly and Jessica and so on.

And that's why I joined the police to stop that sort of thing. It. I can talk many more issues that have struck me in my career, and I thought, it's just not right. What are we going to do?But I carried that through to 2016 when I started Avon, Somerset. And that first week I had to apologise. I didn't have to. I chose to apologise to the sister of a murdered man who'd been murdered because the police didn't join the dots up.

It's a matter of public record. It's Bijan Ebrahimi, um, and one thing I always do as a leader is verbalize. What I'm worried about is share the mission so that people can help me and make myself open to ideas. And a very junior analyst said, I can do this. And I said, I don't believe you because I've been trying to do it for the last 15 years, but I'm going to give you three months to prove me wrong. In the three months work he did on, um, suspects and offenders and victims, um, where another preventable crime happened.

And it was so compelling. I said, this technology will touch every corner of the of this organisation within 12 months. And it did. Now, sadly, a lot of that work stalled and policing is now rediscovering. Crikey. Maybe we ought to be more cognizant of data. I commit to this committee that I would use the powers available to me as the inspectorate to make sure that policing was as progressive and as consistent as possible, and fire and rescue for the public that we're here to serve and protect, because I think that is such an important part of the role.

Now, maybe, maybe I was too respectful. I've had five years, and I can give you lots of examples of where I've stuck a big wedge under chief constables and made them do stuff they didn't want to, but they needed to. And, and actually, I believe that that equips me to be incredibly objective and independent in this role.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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I clearly don't work in the inspectorate, but I have been a close partner, so I have some understanding of how it operates. I, I think that they um do. Conduct quite extensive workforce surveys in policing, um before each inspection. That's important. I would like to have a look at how the inspectorate hears the voice of the public in respect of foreign policing. So that that would be a touchstone for what matters most. Now, my understanding of public sentiment at the moment is they they want us to take their crimes seriously, and they want us to investigate thoroughly.

Um, so there is a reasonable chance if there are lines of inquiry, we might bring someone to justice. And all of my experience in policing and Desistance theory is that actually, if you don't catch people, that crime type probably will start to gather out of control. So I think that there is a big focus on, um, safety in neighbourhoods, town centres, um, volume crime as well as the other complex issues. Policing needs to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.

And the wood of fire is changing dramatically as well. In terms of the other responsibilities that fire officers have beyond simply putting out fires. And I know there's an awful lot about protecting people and protecting buildings. But as we've found now, we live in a much more unpredictable climate. We do live in an unpredictable world. What is the role of fire and rescue and policing in terms of local resilience?So I think I think I can, um, forge a stronger bond with communities about what matters most.

And if I wasn't, I would want someone to point it out to me pretty, pretty sharply.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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Thank you very much.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Miss Atkinson.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Um. In 2015, as the national forums and shotgun licensing lead, I secured the first fee increase for 15 years, which involved an awful lot of stakeholder engagement with the because we also put markers on medical records for the first time following the Cumbria shootings. Um, I did declare people on the government side to declare without firearms a shotgun licence, because I felt I felt there was some interest in that. And we secured the increase in 2021. The Home Secretary was very unhappy with um, the outcome of a Black Lives Matter protest where the Colston statue was toppled.

I answered all. The questions very publicly, but held my ground around the operational independence of why we did it. If we move into my my current portfolio, we we rewrote the code of practice. Sorry, the code, the code of practice on ethics, the code of ethics. Um, and this was an incredibly important work for me. Um, not least of which, because it expanded the code of ethics from being just for chief constables to everyone in policing staff and officers.

And it embraced, um, a commitment to a duty of candour and embraced a commitment to victims and families who suffered tragedy that the police and this reads across intifada, they've got their own code of ethics would would respect victims above their reputation. Now at the 11th hour, there was a political intervention to stop me publishing it. And I worked with other leaders in the sector to make representations. But it was very clear it was my code of ethics, and I led it to the Home Secretary that this was really important work, and we needed to do it.

Um, number ten got involved. Um, and ultimately it, it was, it was published without the changes that I was being required to make. I also had robust conversations about the quality of initial training. So I found myself in a number of high profile situations, some of them public, some of them not. I guess I'm, I'm less comfortable talking about the private ones because one of the reasons that I'm able to do things, I have been able to do things in, in policing, and I hope to do more in policing and fire is because people trust me, and that's because I respect them.

And that is one of the principal principles of the code of ethics, respect and empathy. I do believe that kindness is the ultimate professional advantage in our in our world and but also courage to do the right thing on a difficult day. And, and that's really important to me as, as well. And public service, which is what drives me, what gets me out of bed in the morning.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 9
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Um.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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The college is one of the designated bodies for dealing with super complaints with the inspectorate. So I've led, um, a super complaint investigation into stalking. Um, I've been involved in super investigations into police perpetrated domestic abuse. Um, so these have involved engaging of course with the sectors that raised those super complaints who've got understandably very high expectations of policing and the investigation means that you need to gather information across, across and outside the sector that answers the exam question, makes some recommendations if appropriate, and as far as possible, keeps everyone on board so that so that those recommendations actually stick.

So that would be one example of how I've done it. I mentioned the Nicola Bully review earlier. Um, I felt the way that the police were engaging with the media was, uh, suboptimal to be polite. Um, there'd been a, a, a freezing of the relationship. Um, and um, we needed to, we needed to change it. I felt there was some risk aversion and timidity as well. Now I couldn't, I couldn't land that recommendation. It's all very well making it.

I had to land it as the professional body for policing. I couldn't land it without a seeking a police chiefs and people involved in policing media leads to accept he's got a point. We need to change, but be working with the Society of Editors, journalists and wider sector about how they met policing somewhere in the middle around a new charter for policing so that the the result of that was launched. Uh, it was this year, um, a new charter for policing, a relationship with the media, a new authorised professional practice for, for media and policing, particular guidance on ethnicity, ethnicity and nationality, which was highly controversial.

Um, 50 organisations petitioned um, that we shouldn't do a certain aspect of it. So that was a very complex piece of work. We landed across multiple stakeholders.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Um.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Of course.
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None Portrait Speaker 9
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Um.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Well, I would.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Chris Murray.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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I felt I felt.
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None Portrait Speaker 9
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Um.
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None Portrait Speaker 9
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Um.
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None Portrait Speaker 9
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Um.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Is that a problem?
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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There will be things I think I can mention a couple as a starter for ten and regrettably apologies in policing again. One. One is that the experience that members of the public have who are victims of crime in terms of support, is entirely commissioned and delivered through offices of the Police and Crime Commissioner. Those are not inspected by the inspectorate. I think that's a really important part of the jigsaw. If we care about what victims think about their experience.

So that would be one the the the other is and and this is coming from a position of someone that that that would find it a bit presumptuous for a police chief to be saying, this is the way I must be held to account. So I'm not I'm not saying that I've managed to forge a positive relationship with two police and crime commissioners, and my chief's tenure started right back in 2012. I'm probably the only one, apart from Mark Rowley, that can remember what police authorities look like.

So we should be very careful about saying, this is the way you should hold me to account. But what I'm saying is accountability really matters. It really, really matters. And policing needs good oversight and accountability, including Chief Constable's and maybe some of the issues of conduct that we've seen are aware there hasn't been that sort of accountability. I'm just saying maybe. So I think the ability of the inspectorate to, at the very least, comment on maybe inspect governance and oversight arrangements would be in the interest of the public.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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So I, I.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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I'm obviously aware of that comment, and it led to a a letter, not an exchange of letters. Um, and I resolved the issue as far as I understood it with Sir Andy Kirk, who was the incoming Chief Inspector of Constabulary, and it was, as I said earlier, if this is Andy to me, I we use all of your standards in inspections. And he also said, but you will appreciate, Andy, if we see something that isn't right with the Independent Inspectorate, we're going to call it out. And my answer is, of course, of course you will.

Now that that, I don't think that's a lack of clarity. Actually, I think we I think we cleared it up in that discussion. But the police reform discussions that are taking place at the moment where it is proposed to College of Policing moves in its entirety into the National Police Service, are a fresh opportunity to consider the standard setting role. I will make one last observation. We haven't got sufficient resources at the College of Policing to set standards for everything, which means there is a very significant bunfight over prioritisation for authorised professional practice and other products, and we.

I make a decision guided by the board to focus our standard setting activity and refreshing on the things that matter most, the things that are most relevant. And so I think that that does reveal a very real gap, that there will be some areas of inspection where simply the inspectorate can't can't say, well, that's the standard, that's what the college say. And so I think I've been pragmatic in my agreement with Andy Cook.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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I can actually and in fairness to Andy Cooke, uh. He used the power of the inspectorate very effectively against me in a way that I think is helpful in a way that I would seek to hold everyone to account. Um, we've, we've known each other a long time, but it, it never stopped him being incredibly difficult with me. And he made the observation that, um, we're identifying lots of good practice. No one's doing anything with it. It's not spreading now.

Now actually policing is still inconsistent. That is a problem that remains. But what I did in response to this was set up a and I welcome any of you having a look at our website to find this. Um, it's called the practice bank. So where we identify innovative or promising practice or it's proposed by forces or it's identified by the inspectorate. We make a very fast time light touch. If it looks promising and innovative, we, we put it on our promising innovative practice website.

And there are almost 500 examples. And this is a big frustration of mine still in policing is that whoever you are in policing and I could talk about five because there are parallels here, whether you're a constable, police staff, chief constable, there are some problems you're wrestling with. I, I bet you someone solved the problem on our on our practice bank. Now, what happens from there is we put it into chapters and we do identify pervasive and recurring problems. So there's a whole chapter on investigating crime and crime investigation quality.

And we've developed lots of products to help forces improve investigation quality. Um, but the I chair a what works board, we've taken a lot out of the leaf of the medical profession. I think with this and from the practice bank, we identify the game changing innovations that will have the biggest impact on police productivity and performance. And then we use our limited money to evaluate them through trials, um, into, into the sector. And if, if they pass the trial, they go on the full whatworks website and they're accelerated into policing through a productivity capability team that I've got at the College of Policing.

And one of the things that they promoted recently is rapid video response across policing, for example.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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What it did in Avon and Somerset when I created dashboards and dials informed by the staff and officers to help them make better decisions, I would monitor who was. It was all auditable who was using it and I found super users using it in ways that I couldn't imagine and we changed and improved it. I absolutely monitor who hits my website. I created a digital twin of police forces, relationships with the College of Policing, which I share with the inspectorate, by the way, and it shows what police forces are contributing, whether it's ideas, innovation, secondments and what they're what they're taking in terms of which products they take up.

And so, for example, what I what I learned is that one of our products that absolutely flew off the shelf because it was high quality, was a, an online 30 minute lesson on non-contact sexual offending, flashing on tubes. Upskirting. And one of the reasons it was particularly good, it was relevant because because of what had happened with the current climate of violence against women and girls. But it did have embedded within it very meaningful, um, family testimony from people who've been victims of those crimes, from the mother of a daughter who'd been murdered, to explain to the officers and staff just how important, so we can learn so much, you know, from what, who chooses to do what or not in relation to their relationship with the College of Policing.

So I monitor all of that stuff and put it out to Chiefs as well.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Um.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Recall it.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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I do, I do.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Um.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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You've talked.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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Okay.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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Yes it does.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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In in its broadest brush. Uh, the reform is to be welcomed because we're policing succeeds in my experience. It is succeeding despite so many barriers and impediments. And the, the the public deserve better. People in policing deserve better in terms of the explicit areas that you mentioned, standard setting and direction, I do believe that it is home secretaries democratic right to say this is what I want from policing. She happens to be the Home Secretary. Um, the inspectorate, because we're independent, certainly under the state of policing, could offer a different view about what might be important.

Both things are possible if there is to be that national direction missing across England and Wales needs to be cognizant of it, needs to be accountable for it. And the new performance Framework, which has worked in partnership with the inspectorate, will help do that. The standard setting role is is more. Sorry, one more thing on on direction setting, there does still need to be the ability from neighbourhood through to local policing area and police force, whatever that size that is, for a local flavor to be put on it without directing it away from you must have.

You must take into account this direction because policing happens locally and, you know, just take take even the Somerset Police, the needs of the community and support are very different to the needs of the community in Exmoor, for example. So you need you need a local element to it on standard setting, something which I'm, I'm passionate about. Um, having spent the last five years doing it, this, this role will move into the National Police Service and appropriate checks will need to be put in place to make sure that the commissioner of the National Police Service cannot.

Inappropriately fetter the standards that are being set for the service. And there are complex and extended discussions taking place about how that will work. At the moment. I do think it's possible, by the way, to build those safeguards in.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Matters most to local communities in terms of their personal experience until something big goes wrong. And of course, um, tragically and concerningly, we've seen examples of that in the last week. So on the plus side, those bigger capabilities, if if they transpire to be the case, Bernard Hogan-howe is conducting his review. Um, would have far greater strategic capability and capacity to pack a punch to solve a big problem when it happened. And to an extent, we work around that at the moment.

So the counter-terrorism activity that we see taking place is coordinated nationally and led by the Metropolitan Police. That would move into the new, the the new, the new body. Um, so I, I think that would be beneficial. I think what would also be beneficial is if you've got fewer, you've got fewer decision makers and you've got a faster flash to bang on. We need to do this don't we. Let's do it. Let's make it happen.

At the moment, innovation is far too slow to flow across England and Wales. What we need to safeguard against is the loss of connection between the local person, the member of the public, the citizen, the community and the police. The police force or fire and rescue that are there to serve them, I do absolutely believe that's possible through creating a a very clear, resilient model of local policing areas. Um, with the best ever neighbourhood policing because that really matters. And some of the damage to trust and confidence that we've witnessed over the last ten years has come through the attrition of neighbourhood policing.

Now, if that if that police reform allows us to do things more efficiently and effectively so that we can protect those things that the public really care about, then in my opinion, that would be a good thing.
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