Numeracy for Life Committee
Thursday 16th July 2026
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10:06
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Of numeracy skills for frankly, from the very. If we're going to do it, most effective growth. So for all of those reasons, it's really important that we collectively, from the very earliest stages of children's lives through the school to the school system into post 16 education, and then throughout adulthood as well in terms of opportunities. And of course, our key objective in this in the system, if you like, the sort of signal that somebody has, the level of skills necessary to be able to access work and to get those benefits in their lives, is to have achieved a level two.
At GCSE standard maths. That's what we aim for in the school system. That's what we then in post 16 education, particularly 16 to 19, provide for in colleges and in 16 to 19 education. If somebody hasn't managed to get to that level by the time they get to, 16, and then that's what we ensure that if an if a young person still hasn't reached that level by the time they get to the age of 19, although we are seeing an increase in the numbers that do get there, that there is then a national entitlement through adulthood.
And into the spending of the Adult Skills Fund. That means that people can continue to have access to free tuition for qualifications that will lead them to that level. And of course, we also and this is where perhaps the DfE DWP, straddling the I that I do is important. We also have, through the skills system, through apprenticeships, through the occupational standards that feed into both apprenticeships and qualifications. The in the embedding of numeracy, numeracy skills within those qualifications. And training routes and of course, through the Adult Skills Fund as well through tailored learning and more informal provision for people throughout their their lives.
So that's a long way of me answering your question and saying, yes.
At GCSE standard maths. That's what we aim for in the school system. That's what we then in post 16 education, particularly 16 to 19, provide for in colleges and in 16 to 19 education. If somebody hasn't managed to get to that level by the time they get to, 16, and then that's what we ensure that if an if a young person still hasn't reached that level by the time they get to the age of 19, although we are seeing an increase in the numbers that do get there, that there is then a national entitlement through adulthood.
And into the spending of the Adult Skills Fund. That means that people can continue to have access to free tuition for qualifications that will lead them to that level. And of course, we also and this is where perhaps the DfE DWP, straddling the I that I do is important. We also have, through the skills system, through apprenticeships, through the occupational standards that feed into both apprenticeships and qualifications. The in the embedding of numeracy, numeracy skills within those qualifications. And training routes and of course, through the Adult Skills Fund as well through tailored learning and more informal provision for people throughout their their lives.
So that's a long way of me answering your question and saying, yes.
10:08
10:08
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Minister, thank you very much. But around 70% of the adult skills fund provision is now devolved to mayoral authorities. So what role does the government play in monitoring how that funding is being used and how it is ensure that improving numeracy remains a priority across different areas of the country?
10:09
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So it is likely to be the case in the spending of the important in the way in which I described it, both for individuals and for local economies. So it is likely to be the case, uh, in the spending of the devolved adult Skills fund that authorities will want to develop numeracy skills. However, uh, in order to ensure that that is the case, that is the reason why we have a is an alignment of our objectives that in other words, there is an understanding that numeracy is important in the way in which I described it, both for individuals and for local economies.
So it is likely to be the case, uh, in the spending of the devolved adult skills fund that authorities will want to develop numeracy skills. However, uh, in order to ensure that that is the case. That is the reason why we have a legal entitlement. So a national legal entitlement, that means that wherever you are in the country, the commissioners need to provide free access to, uh, a level two course in maths for you. So, um, even if they were minded to, and I, and I don't think they are devolved bodies could not provide make that provision.
And then we also have a sort of developing accountability. Um mechanism for. For devolved, um adult skills fund areas where, which comes through the sort of way in which the integrated settlement has been developed. And we have an annual conversation with, um. With, uh. As part of this integrated settlement where we agree what the outcomes should be of the spending, and then we hold to account or we have a conversation with those authorities about the way in which they are spending, that spending that money.
And then, of course, on top of that, we have Ofsted ensuring the quality of what's being provided, and we have Ofqual ensuring that qualifications are of a standard that is appropriate.
So it is likely to be the case, uh, in the spending of the devolved adult skills fund that authorities will want to develop numeracy skills. However, uh, in order to ensure that that is the case. That is the reason why we have a legal entitlement. So a national legal entitlement, that means that wherever you are in the country, the commissioners need to provide free access to, uh, a level two course in maths for you. So, um, even if they were minded to, and I, and I don't think they are devolved bodies could not provide make that provision.
And then we also have a sort of developing accountability. Um mechanism for. For devolved, um adult skills fund areas where, which comes through the sort of way in which the integrated settlement has been developed. And we have an annual conversation with, um. With, uh. As part of this integrated settlement where we agree what the outcomes should be of the spending, and then we hold to account or we have a conversation with those authorities about the way in which they are spending, that spending that money.
And then, of course, on top of that, we have Ofsted ensuring the quality of what's being provided, and we have Ofqual ensuring that qualifications are of a standard that is appropriate.
10:10
10:10
10:11
10:11
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
That's a very short follow up. Thank you. What we heard from the Richmond project was that the devolution of funds and the the local autonomy, if you like, even in that framework, made it difficult to roll out things nationally at scale. So he made the example of online provision, which some areas may support and some may not, because they want to drive young people or older people to the local colleges. Do you see a problem there or indeed a solution there, as to how you can get economies of scale and national reach in a devolved system?
10:11
10:11
10:12
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Is the nature of a devolved system that different devolved authorities will make different decisions. That's sort of the deal. With devolution and who knows, we may see more of those challenges and opportunities in the weeks to come. Um, what I think, um, so, you know, yes, it is a fair point that you then have a tension between what you need to deliver nationally and what might be the priority at a devolved level. That's why because of the significance of, um. Because of the significance of numeracy, there is this legal entitlement.
Uh, but to the extent that either the Dfee or the DWP would insist on a. National way of delivering something. And to be honest with you, that doesn't tend to be the way in which we work. Anyway, uh, it yes, by definition, it's more difficult if decisions are being made in, uh, in different devolved areas. But just to reiterate, as I said before, um, you know, it's my experience and for all of the reasons, the reasons why you're doing this inquiry and the, and the reasons that we know, uh, that skills England, for example, have spelt out about the importance of, of numeracy.
It is unlikely that it would be um deprioritised, but although it might be delivered in different ways in different areas.
Uh, but to the extent that either the Dfee or the DWP would insist on a. National way of delivering something. And to be honest with you, that doesn't tend to be the way in which we work. Anyway, uh, it yes, by definition, it's more difficult if decisions are being made in, uh, in different devolved areas. But just to reiterate, as I said before, um, you know, it's my experience and for all of the reasons, the reasons why you're doing this inquiry and the, and the reasons that we know, uh, that skills England, for example, have spelt out about the importance of, of numeracy.
It is unlikely that it would be um deprioritised, but although it might be delivered in different ways in different areas.
10:13
10:13
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Lord Hampton um, thank you the, the, the multiply programme is very, very well spoken of and people talk about it getting the, the hard to reach adults back into education in that informal way. Um, but unfortunately the evaluation is, is quite muddy about whether it actually it got a lot of people in people stayed, people went on to do other courses, but there's, the evaluation hasn't really proved whether it improved numeracy at all. How can you build on that sort of tailored approach. But make sure that it's evaluated and it is actually improving numeracy?
10:14
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Um well I think I think you're right that the evaluation of the multiply programme, which as you say, was always designed to be more tailored, more informal to get to people who hadn't necessarily succeeded in more traditional ways of learning, perhaps throughout their, their school life or their college life. It was aimed to get at those people. And the evaluation started with the objective of being able to measure the impact that it had had on learners for the for their numeracy skills. But of course, in order to be able to do that, essentially you need to test somebody at the beginning and test somebody at the end.
And by definition, if you have not succeeded in traditional assessment methods up to that point, and it's a voluntary scheme, you're probably going to be somewhat put off by the idea that you've got to take a test. So that's my understanding of the reason why that specific bit of evaluation didn't happen. But that doesn't mean that there wasn't the opportunity to do other evaluation. So the the evaluation looked at, um, learner and provider surveys and qualitative evidence. And it did find evidence that there were improvements in confidence that people were better able to practically use numeracy skills that they were interested in going on to further maths, learning and in the progression data through the individual learner record.
Shown level one or level two maths qualification to increase earnings by 3% or or more. In your. In what employers are willing to pay you. So that. Demonstrates to us that there. That it is an important contributor both to individuals. Um ability to be able to live a full life and work, but also to the economy as a whole. That's the reason behind the investment that is being made in maths. It's a reason behind the work that's happening pre 16 as well as um post 16.
Um what we have seen is that I mean the good news on this is the most recent OECD um piac survey of adult skills did show both that there was a marked improvement in England's numeracy level compared to the previous survey. And in 2012. And it also showed, uh, that we have a higher than average level of numeracy skills compared to other countries. And in fact, uh, there had been improvements in numeracy levels at all age groups apart from the age of 55 to 65.
And by definition, if you have not succeeded in traditional assessment methods up to that point, and it's a voluntary scheme, you're probably going to be somewhat put off by the idea that you've got to take a test. So that's my understanding of the reason why that specific bit of evaluation didn't happen. But that doesn't mean that there wasn't the opportunity to do other evaluation. So the the evaluation looked at, um, learner and provider surveys and qualitative evidence. And it did find evidence that there were improvements in confidence that people were better able to practically use numeracy skills that they were interested in going on to further maths, learning and in the progression data through the individual learner record.
Shown level one or level two maths qualification to increase earnings by 3% or or more. In your. In what employers are willing to pay you. So that. Demonstrates to us that there. That it is an important contributor both to individuals. Um ability to be able to live a full life and work, but also to the economy as a whole. That's the reason behind the investment that is being made in maths. It's a reason behind the work that's happening pre 16 as well as um post 16.
Um what we have seen is that I mean the good news on this is the most recent OECD um piac survey of adult skills did show both that there was a marked improvement in England's numeracy level compared to the previous survey. And in 2012. And it also showed, uh, that we have a higher than average level of numeracy skills compared to other countries. And in fact, uh, there had been improvements in numeracy levels at all age groups apart from the age of 55 to 65.
10:19
10:55
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
We've all recognized the. Extent to which you have numeracy skills as an adult. When you sort of started this, you had a focus on adult numeracy skills and post 16. But I think as determined by what happens to you from the moment at which you're born and, and the time that you go through the education system. And there are different challenges about the approaches that you take at different stages. I think there are. Possibly particular, um.
Particular challenges when people become adults, having not had the having not got to that GCSE grade four level. And so, you know, any good ideas about what more we need to do in order in a devolved system to make sure that there's a recognition of the need to continue developing numeracy skills, and for that to inform the the the devolved administrations as well. I think that would be useful, as would, you know, as with all of these things. In Dfee and DWP, we have a specific remit for this, but I think there are a whole range of different ways.
You talked about the organisations that might be supporting people with debt and financial literacy. There's a need for a sort of cultural understanding of the significance of numerical skills, a move away from this idea that somehow or another it's okay to be rubbish at maths. Um, and that might also. So that goes beyond government, I think, in terms of the way in which you might think about that.
Particular challenges when people become adults, having not had the having not got to that GCSE grade four level. And so, you know, any good ideas about what more we need to do in order in a devolved system to make sure that there's a recognition of the need to continue developing numeracy skills, and for that to inform the the the devolved administrations as well. I think that would be useful, as would, you know, as with all of these things. In Dfee and DWP, we have a specific remit for this, but I think there are a whole range of different ways.
You talked about the organisations that might be supporting people with debt and financial literacy. There's a need for a sort of cultural understanding of the significance of numerical skills, a move away from this idea that somehow or another it's okay to be rubbish at maths. Um, and that might also. So that goes beyond government, I think, in terms of the way in which you might think about that.
10:56
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Great. Well, look, thank you so much for joining us today. We'll bring it to a conclusion. So give you time to get down to the main chamber. But your answers have been very helpful. And I think I'm pleased that you share our interest in this and that it is a whole of government endeavour. So we we look forward to sharing our thoughts with you later in the year.
10:57