Industry and Regulators Committee
Tuesday 21st July 2026
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11:02
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Morning and welcome to this session of the Industry and Regulators Committee. Um, in the light of last year's Strategic Defence Review, we're looking particularly at the relationship between government and the defence and related industries. This is being broadcast live on parliamentary website but also on BBC Parliament Hansard. A transcript will be taken of this. But you'll have a chance if you want to change anything. If we've misunderstood a word or anything that you you said, um, my name is Diane Hayter, and I will introduce the others of my colleagues as they as they pose questions.
Um, but I would just like to start or maybe you say who, who you are first. Um.
Um, but I would just like to start or maybe you say who, who you are first. Um.
11:03
11:03
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
We're delighted to have you here. We're going to be obvious in our questions why it's a particular interest, but I think we have to acknowledge today that I think just yesterday we had some, uh, something that brought the whole issue rather close to home, particularly for Plymouth with the Russians. I think it's about 40 miles off where you live. Um, with some live ammunition. Um and that is obviously felt very much by the people that you're representing here today. Um which is given what we're looking at, if you could describe something about, uh, and particularly of course the defence growth deal, um, how much it provides sort of strategic leadership and how closely you work with it.
Over to you.
Over to you.
11:05
11:05
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Um, which is given what we're looking at, if you could describe something about the relationship that your council has with the government in relation to, uh, defence and particularly, of course, the defence growth deal, um, how much it provides sort of strategic leadership and how closely you work with it. Over to you.
11:05
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Thank you. And it's absolutely I'm absolutely delighted to be here today to let you know what is happening with Team Plymouth down in the South West. Um, our relationship with government in relation to defence has been a long standing one. Uh, Plymouth has the largest naval base in Western Europe. And so that relationship, in terms of defence, the realm is always something that is embedded in what we do. It's in our it's in our DNA. Um, but it was 2000, I think it was around 2024 when we came together with our Mod colleagues to recognise the significant investments that needed to take place in our dockyard to prepare for the continuous at sea deterrent upgrade.
Um, the submarines that are being built in Barrow will be maintained in Devonport in in Plymouth, and that upgrade, uh, was clearly a significant moment for a city that had had its ups and downs in terms of defence investment. With the dockyard, we had feast and famine over our history. Our history is that the dockyard has been there for 400 years, and Plymouth exists because of the dockyard. Um, so that relationship, starting from a point of understanding what that meant in terms of investment, but quickly recognising that the twin approach of making sure that Plymouth played its part in defence of the realm, primary purpose for the whole of the UK.
But Plymouth very much as part of the spearhead for that, uh, needed to be in the context of a lot of work that had been done in the city and across the subregion to make sure that we were expanding and diversifying our economy. And the biggest opportunity we had, which at the time last week, it increased to £7.1 billion, but at the time was 4.4 billion, was the biggest opportunity of significant investment, became the biggest risk for us as a city. And the reason for that was that by plowing forward with defence of the realm, Babcock need 5500 new workers in the dockyard over the next ten years to replace an aging workforce.
It's 11,600 that work in the dockyard at the moment. Uh, they could suck workers out of every other business in our city and across our region. So unless we worked collectively with the mod, with Babcock, with our defence industries and other government departments, the biggest opportunity would be the biggest threat to us as a place. And from there, working with government, particularly the Mod, particularly with Mhclg, who really got the need to make sure that both parts of that equation were balanced and the phrase arising.
A rising tide lifts all vessels is, I think, probably one of the strap lines for what we do as Team Plymouth. Um, so mod and Mhclg have been the primary government departments that we've worked with over that time. It's not been an easy journey. Um, because it's been tricky to navigate how we move forward with such a significant opportunity and wanting to maximise the benefits for that across the, the city. But I think we are in a good place. We have two ministers sponsoring ministers for the work that we're doing and engagement from from other government departments, and that's important, and that's vital because we can do a lot by ourselves as a place.
We want to do a lot by ourselves as a place. But when you need 5500 new workers in your dockyard, you multiply on top of that, that we are now the centre for Marine Autonomy across the UK. We are the national focus for for that, over the next ten years we need 25,000 new workers in our labour market. Um and that is not something that any one organisation or one place can do alone. And so working collectively with government, we have absolutely got our eye on the prize, which is to make sure that we can support the defence of the realm, we can grow our businesses because, as you will all recognise, defence is changing massively in terms of the technology, the kit and the businesses that are involved in that, that we use this as an opportunity to raise, uh, so many of our residents out of poverty because defence jobs pay well.
Um, and we make sure that that pipeline of skills is there. The order book for Babcock goes up to 2070. So the people who are going to be maintaining the submarines in the dockyard either haven't been born yet or in primary school. So we are looking at the short term, but our programme is a very, very long term programme.
Um, the submarines that are being built in Barrow will be maintained in Devonport in in Plymouth, and that upgrade, uh, was clearly a significant moment for a city that had had its ups and downs in terms of defence investment. With the dockyard, we had feast and famine over our history. Our history is that the dockyard has been there for 400 years, and Plymouth exists because of the dockyard. Um, so that relationship, starting from a point of understanding what that meant in terms of investment, but quickly recognising that the twin approach of making sure that Plymouth played its part in defence of the realm, primary purpose for the whole of the UK.
But Plymouth very much as part of the spearhead for that, uh, needed to be in the context of a lot of work that had been done in the city and across the subregion to make sure that we were expanding and diversifying our economy. And the biggest opportunity we had, which at the time last week, it increased to £7.1 billion, but at the time was 4.4 billion, was the biggest opportunity of significant investment, became the biggest risk for us as a city. And the reason for that was that by plowing forward with defence of the realm, Babcock need 5500 new workers in the dockyard over the next ten years to replace an aging workforce.
It's 11,600 that work in the dockyard at the moment. Uh, they could suck workers out of every other business in our city and across our region. So unless we worked collectively with the mod, with Babcock, with our defence industries and other government departments, the biggest opportunity would be the biggest threat to us as a place. And from there, working with government, particularly the Mod, particularly with Mhclg, who really got the need to make sure that both parts of that equation were balanced and the phrase arising.
A rising tide lifts all vessels is, I think, probably one of the strap lines for what we do as Team Plymouth. Um, so mod and Mhclg have been the primary government departments that we've worked with over that time. It's not been an easy journey. Um, because it's been tricky to navigate how we move forward with such a significant opportunity and wanting to maximise the benefits for that across the, the city. But I think we are in a good place. We have two ministers sponsoring ministers for the work that we're doing and engagement from from other government departments, and that's important, and that's vital because we can do a lot by ourselves as a place.
We want to do a lot by ourselves as a place. But when you need 5500 new workers in your dockyard, you multiply on top of that, that we are now the centre for Marine Autonomy across the UK. We are the national focus for for that, over the next ten years we need 25,000 new workers in our labour market. Um and that is not something that any one organisation or one place can do alone. And so working collectively with government, we have absolutely got our eye on the prize, which is to make sure that we can support the defence of the realm, we can grow our businesses because, as you will all recognise, defence is changing massively in terms of the technology, the kit and the businesses that are involved in that, that we use this as an opportunity to raise, uh, so many of our residents out of poverty because defence jobs pay well.
Um, and we make sure that that pipeline of skills is there. The order book for Babcock goes up to 2070. So the people who are going to be maintaining the submarines in the dockyard either haven't been born yet or in primary school. So we are looking at the short term, but our programme is a very, very long term programme.
11:09
11:10
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
It is. It is a big challenge language. We we use different language to say the same thing. Um, and so, um, it's, it's been important to build relationships. Uh, so the triumvirate, the, the triumvirate that is there between the city council putting our skin in the game, making sure that we've made investments, the mod putting their skin in the game, putting the defence deal on the table and Babcock putting skin in the game, making significant investments, particularly in the heart of our city centre to help regenerate the city centre, has been key to that.
Our University of Plymouth have come alongside and our City College have also come alongside, along with our voluntary and community sectors, who recognise that the social value that comes from so many defence contracts is vital to make sure that we can support those that are furthest from the labour market and those that need the most help to get into into work. But we start with trying to understand what each other's saying, first of all.
Our University of Plymouth have come alongside and our City College have also come alongside, along with our voluntary and community sectors, who recognise that the social value that comes from so many defence contracts is vital to make sure that we can support those that are furthest from the labour market and those that need the most help to get into into work. But we start with trying to understand what each other's saying, first of all.
11:11
11:11
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yes, thank you very much. It's a pleasure to meet you. During Covid, Tudor and I spent many hours on conference calls when I was leading the district councils, and he had a leading role at the LGA. So nice. Nice to see you. Um, look, you've really clearly articulated the strategy and some of the strategic context around your local authority and Plymouth, but I was interested to know what precisely that turns into in practical terms. What are the, what are the programmes that you have?Uh, to reach out?I think you've touched on skills.
There may be others. And importantly, who pays?Is it the local taxpayer out of your own resources or is there financial assistance from government to help you achieve their aims?
There may be others. And importantly, who pays?Is it the local taxpayer out of your own resources or is there financial assistance from government to help you achieve their aims?
11:12
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So thank you so much for that. That question. Um, because actually you can have as many strategies and visions as you like, but, and as we often say, that doesn't butter any parsnips. So, um, it comes down to the detail of exactly what we're, we're doing. Um, so in true local government style, we've got, um, we love a bit of governance around this. So we have a, an executive board that leads this process. Um, unlike Barrow where I know they're moving to a company structure, we felt that it's really important to make sure that that triumvirate is there.
We've all got skin in the game. We're not outsourcing this to anyone else. We're making sure that we're absolutely focused on the work that we're doing. Um, we have six work streams. We have a business and innovation, particularly around our marine autonomy. Uh, and that's led by the vice chancellor of the University of Plymouth. Absolutely. Driving forward on being and capitalising on being the National Centre for Marine Autonomy since we were announced as the National Centre for Marine Autonomy, we've had a 700% increase in inward investment into the city.
So that makes a big difference. Names make a difference, but we have to capitalise on that and particularly the regulatory environment that works to support businesses, and I'm sure you'll want to come on and touch on on that at some stage. Um education, those children that either haven't, well they haven't been born yet or they're in primary school, that long term programme of Stem, making sure that our young children, our children are interested in jobs in engineering, but so many other jobs in the, in the city.
And that's actually led by Babcock. Um, as the, the lead for that work, uh, skills post 16 skills, we need to upskill our existing workforce and those that are not in work. We need to get them into work because 25,000 people need, need to, to be in jobs. Um, and that's led by our city college, city centre, housing and regeneration, 25,000 new jobs. We need 10,000 new homes in the heart of our city centre. And I lead the work stream on, on that.
So that's very much led by the city, by the City council, transport people won't all live in one place. They need to move around. And so the whole Plymouth Metro system, the way that connects with Cornwall, the way it connects into Devon, is absolutely key. And the managing director of our bus company leads that workstream and then social value, thinking about how we make sure that we have um, up support for those that are furthest away from the labour markets that we are supporting the environmental aspirations that we, we have, um, is led by one of our fantastic partners from the voluntary and community sector.
We've all got skin in the game. We're not outsourcing this to anyone else. We're making sure that we're absolutely focused on the work that we're doing. Um, we have six work streams. We have a business and innovation, particularly around our marine autonomy. Uh, and that's led by the vice chancellor of the University of Plymouth. Absolutely. Driving forward on being and capitalising on being the National Centre for Marine Autonomy since we were announced as the National Centre for Marine Autonomy, we've had a 700% increase in inward investment into the city.
So that makes a big difference. Names make a difference, but we have to capitalise on that and particularly the regulatory environment that works to support businesses, and I'm sure you'll want to come on and touch on on that at some stage. Um education, those children that either haven't, well they haven't been born yet or they're in primary school, that long term programme of Stem, making sure that our young children, our children are interested in jobs in engineering, but so many other jobs in the, in the city.
And that's actually led by Babcock. Um, as the, the lead for that work, uh, skills post 16 skills, we need to upskill our existing workforce and those that are not in work. We need to get them into work because 25,000 people need, need to, to be in jobs. Um, and that's led by our city college, city centre, housing and regeneration, 25,000 new jobs. We need 10,000 new homes in the heart of our city centre. And I lead the work stream on, on that.
So that's very much led by the city, by the City council, transport people won't all live in one place. They need to move around. And so the whole Plymouth Metro system, the way that connects with Cornwall, the way it connects into Devon, is absolutely key. And the managing director of our bus company leads that workstream and then social value, thinking about how we make sure that we have um, up support for those that are furthest away from the labour markets that we are supporting the environmental aspirations that we, we have, um, is led by one of our fantastic partners from the voluntary and community sector.
11:15
11:15
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
The way it works is that we all put what we can on the table. Um, so it's, it's a bit like a safari supper where everybody comes in and brings, brings something. Um, so from a city council perspective, we've made an investment of £50 million in our city centre in terms of public realm investment, because we know that it's really important that our city centre is regenerated, and the impact of that will be growth of our city centre homes. England are alongside us. We have a strategic partnership with Homes England and they have made strategic investments in sites in our city centre.
Babcock have committed to a global capability hub that's an office block, uh, which will have 2000 employees in the heart of the city centre. City College has been successful in becoming a defence technical college. So what we've done is we've corralled funding from wherever we can. We are spending our own money across the partnerships, but we're also taking opportunities to bid for money and work very closely with government departments on where those opportunities might be. We are really grateful that the Mod has named us as one of the defence growth deals.
So that's a £50 million investment by the Mod. But what's really important is that the other government departments come alongside that and double that money and make sure that that investment pays strong dividends. So it's a real, uh. Cocktail of funding that that comes together.
Babcock have committed to a global capability hub that's an office block, uh, which will have 2000 employees in the heart of the city centre. City College has been successful in becoming a defence technical college. So what we've done is we've corralled funding from wherever we can. We are spending our own money across the partnerships, but we're also taking opportunities to bid for money and work very closely with government departments on where those opportunities might be. We are really grateful that the Mod has named us as one of the defence growth deals.
So that's a £50 million investment by the Mod. But what's really important is that the other government departments come alongside that and double that money and make sure that that investment pays strong dividends. So it's a real, uh. Cocktail of funding that that comes together.
11:16
11:17
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So we've just had a big inward investment from Hellsing, um, who are a major player in relation to underwater gliders. Teledyne are in the city. The city. So there are a lot of, uh, of organisations that are defence security and particularly marine autonomy businesses. And that clustering is really important. That idea that you can start your early career in one business, you move on to another business, and you might be the managing director of a company in another in another area.
I think it's also that permeability of the the businesses that are in the city and dual use. So as well as having organisations that are very defence and security focused, those marine autonomy businesses are doing some really amazing things in terms of environmental, um, monitoring. Um, and of course the underwater cables and the protection of underwater cables is absolutely crucial. So businesses clustering is really important, but not just clustering in the city. We've got some really important clusters. Um, but also across the whole of the region, um, because we're very conscious that business, um, the boundaries business will go wherever business needs to go.
And so that sense of particularly our southwest defence and security cluster, which is about 600 businesses across the region, um, coming together and looking at opportunities to work collectively, those opportunities to, um, come together. If you've got, uh, why wouldn't you think about, um, aerial drones, underwater drones, land, uh, autonomous vehicles and try and build a system that works for security more widely. And very often the businesses might be working in part of a system, but actually the magic happens when they link with other businesses that are doing some really amazing things.
I think it's also that permeability of the the businesses that are in the city and dual use. So as well as having organisations that are very defence and security focused, those marine autonomy businesses are doing some really amazing things in terms of environmental, um, monitoring. Um, and of course the underwater cables and the protection of underwater cables is absolutely crucial. So businesses clustering is really important, but not just clustering in the city. We've got some really important clusters. Um, but also across the whole of the region, um, because we're very conscious that business, um, the boundaries business will go wherever business needs to go.
And so that sense of particularly our southwest defence and security cluster, which is about 600 businesses across the region, um, coming together and looking at opportunities to work collectively, those opportunities to, um, come together. If you've got, uh, why wouldn't you think about, um, aerial drones, underwater drones, land, uh, autonomous vehicles and try and build a system that works for security more widely. And very often the businesses might be working in part of a system, but actually the magic happens when they link with other businesses that are doing some really amazing things.
11:19
11:19
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
This has got to be a widespread, um, details coming back to planned military operation, quite frankly. Um, so everybody we've got a skills escalator programme. Um, so people in work, we need them in other jobs, higher level jobs, those different jobs for the future people that are closest to the labour market but aren't in work. We need to get them into work and get them on that escalator. And those that are furthest away from the labour market. We have got a lot of economically inactive people in the city.
We need them closer and in the labour market. And so there's no one magic solution for for that, we absolutely have to work across the piece. Um, we've done some work that's been funded by um. CLG which actually has done some detailed analysis of the skills that we need for those 25,000 jobs. So when do we need the compression welders. When do we need the nuclear physicists?How many of each do we need?And the way in which our university is growing its graduate programmes, the way in which city College is growing its programmes, but also the really important role that the independent training providers have in this is absolutely vital.
So this is has got to be a whole system approach. There's no one organisation that can do that. The tricky part is that the skills system is fragmented, and so you have to take opportunity for funding wherever you can to try and build that picture and bring it together around the the place you.
We need them closer and in the labour market. And so there's no one magic solution for for that, we absolutely have to work across the piece. Um, we've done some work that's been funded by um. CLG which actually has done some detailed analysis of the skills that we need for those 25,000 jobs. So when do we need the compression welders. When do we need the nuclear physicists?How many of each do we need?And the way in which our university is growing its graduate programmes, the way in which city College is growing its programmes, but also the really important role that the independent training providers have in this is absolutely vital.
So this is has got to be a whole system approach. There's no one organisation that can do that. The tricky part is that the skills system is fragmented, and so you have to take opportunity for funding wherever you can to try and build that picture and bring it together around the the place you.
11:21
11:21
11:21
11:21
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Hi. Good. Good morning. Tracy. And, um, I understand exactly what you mean by feast and famine. In the past, when I represented Plymouth in the European Parliament back in the 90s, you were each sort of fiscal year for more cutbacks in the, uh, in the naval base. And, uh, it was all downhill. And it's just great to hear you sound so optimistic and everything that's happening at the minute. Um, what I wanted to ask is that, um, we're all very aware in Plymouth of the prime contractors, people like Babcock, etc., really, really important.
But, um, much of the development on defence side, particularly around things like marine autonomous vehicles, is probably going to be through the SME sector, which is really crucial in terms of innovation and moving defence capability forward. I wondered what, uh, relationship Plymouth City and indeed, uh, Team Plymouth have with, the SME community and how you, um, attract those that maybe want to establish a defence, uh, capabilities, uh, down to Plymouth and deal with the ones that are already there. I'd be very interested to hear your response.
But, um, much of the development on defence side, particularly around things like marine autonomous vehicles, is probably going to be through the SME sector, which is really crucial in terms of innovation and moving defence capability forward. I wondered what, uh, relationship Plymouth City and indeed, uh, Team Plymouth have with, the SME community and how you, um, attract those that maybe want to establish a defence, uh, capabilities, uh, down to Plymouth and deal with the ones that are already there. I'd be very interested to hear your response.
11:22
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Thank you so much. Um, so Plymouth City Council is unusual in that we have kept, um, a strong economic development, uh, unit within the council. Many other councils have had to shed that, uh, just because of the financial circumstances, but we have kept our economic development units. And what that's meant is that we've been able, over the years to build really close relationships with our, um, our SMEs. We are mainly with the exception of Babcock, we are a city of SMEs.
Um, so that relationship is, has been really, really important. And what's also really important is the way in which our SMEs self-organize, because it's not all about what we do. Um, they'll, they'll organize them themselves. And that's been really key as well. Um, but moving on to this next level, as I said earlier, the biggest challenge and threat we have is our biggest opportunity. Um, and our SMEs worry, they worry every day about the poaching of staff into those bigger companies.
Um, and on one hand, I love it when I see wage levels go up. On the other hand, that's not great because we just get that race to the top and our SMEs can't afford the wage levels. And that's why the SMEs involvement in Team Plymouth is so, so important. So the work on business and innovation is absolutely about what works for those SMEs. SMEs are sitting at the table. Some of our really innovative, um marine autonomy businesses sitting at the table.
And I know our vice chancellor will say, when I hear from some of our young managing directors of those companies about what they need, we'll know whether we've landed the right things for those, for those businesses. But other businesses are worried, you know, they are genuinely worried. We have got a strong manufacturing base. Often people will think of the south west as, um, ice creams, cream teas, buckets and spades. Um, but um, 13% of all marine engineering in the country happens in Plymouth.
So um, we do have a strong manufacturers, um organization. Um, and so we, we can only do this together, um that support for the businesses happens in a number of ways. Um, regulation is key and we're absolutely delighted that bill has been introduced, uh, to look at the regulatory environment. Um, and of course, because that regulatory environment is, has shifted, you know, it has stayed as it was for hundreds of years. And yet the tech has changed so massively. Um, so the idea that you have a captain of a vessel on the water or under the water compared to autonomous vessels that we have now, um, is a very, very different thing.
No one wants um danger at sea, but we have to move forward with some of that regulation. And the reason for that is that Plymouth Sound is a natural test bed for this kit. Um they can test it in a very safe way. It's a highly instrumented. So they can, they can test their kit. They know what's happening. Um and the cycle at which that sort of technology is being developed and then got to market has speeded up so massively.
And so the regulatory environment, keeping up and keeping pace and allowing that testing is really important. So we hope for good things. We understand that the marine autonomy element will be part of a sandbox test for um the, the bill, when it comes through. Um, and that's really important working with MCA to support our businesses, um, keeping everyone safe, but making sure that that testing can, can happen. Space is also an issue. So we look, um, one of our MPs phrase is build more sheds and you might say, why is that when you've got so much water?Because they need our businesses need space to manufacture, to test, to prototype and then get that kit in, um, and under the water.
So the program to, to make sure we're doing that is really important. And this is where we pull other work streams together. So we have a free port. Our free port has always been about innovation and design. Um, and um, and that, so that opportunity for our free port to really be at the cutting edge of helping with those sheds that are so important for industry expansion space for, for our, for our SMEs to, to grow.
Um, so that relationship is, has been really, really important. And what's also really important is the way in which our SMEs self-organize, because it's not all about what we do. Um, they'll, they'll organize them themselves. And that's been really key as well. Um, but moving on to this next level, as I said earlier, the biggest challenge and threat we have is our biggest opportunity. Um, and our SMEs worry, they worry every day about the poaching of staff into those bigger companies.
Um, and on one hand, I love it when I see wage levels go up. On the other hand, that's not great because we just get that race to the top and our SMEs can't afford the wage levels. And that's why the SMEs involvement in Team Plymouth is so, so important. So the work on business and innovation is absolutely about what works for those SMEs. SMEs are sitting at the table. Some of our really innovative, um marine autonomy businesses sitting at the table.
And I know our vice chancellor will say, when I hear from some of our young managing directors of those companies about what they need, we'll know whether we've landed the right things for those, for those businesses. But other businesses are worried, you know, they are genuinely worried. We have got a strong manufacturing base. Often people will think of the south west as, um, ice creams, cream teas, buckets and spades. Um, but um, 13% of all marine engineering in the country happens in Plymouth.
So um, we do have a strong manufacturers, um organization. Um, and so we, we can only do this together, um that support for the businesses happens in a number of ways. Um, regulation is key and we're absolutely delighted that bill has been introduced, uh, to look at the regulatory environment. Um, and of course, because that regulatory environment is, has shifted, you know, it has stayed as it was for hundreds of years. And yet the tech has changed so massively. Um, so the idea that you have a captain of a vessel on the water or under the water compared to autonomous vessels that we have now, um, is a very, very different thing.
No one wants um danger at sea, but we have to move forward with some of that regulation. And the reason for that is that Plymouth Sound is a natural test bed for this kit. Um they can test it in a very safe way. It's a highly instrumented. So they can, they can test their kit. They know what's happening. Um and the cycle at which that sort of technology is being developed and then got to market has speeded up so massively.
And so the regulatory environment, keeping up and keeping pace and allowing that testing is really important. So we hope for good things. We understand that the marine autonomy element will be part of a sandbox test for um the, the bill, when it comes through. Um, and that's really important working with MCA to support our businesses, um, keeping everyone safe, but making sure that that testing can, can happen. Space is also an issue. So we look, um, one of our MPs phrase is build more sheds and you might say, why is that when you've got so much water?Because they need our businesses need space to manufacture, to test, to prototype and then get that kit in, um, and under the water.
So the program to, to make sure we're doing that is really important. And this is where we pull other work streams together. So we have a free port. Our free port has always been about innovation and design. Um, and um, and that, so that opportunity for our free port to really be at the cutting edge of helping with those sheds that are so important for industry expansion space for, for our, for our SMEs to, to grow.
11:27
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
That's a very comprehensive. Thank you for that. Um, just to follow up on that point, because when we've talked about, um, aerial drones and testing them in, uh, the UK, there have all been those sort of regulatory issues that you've talked about that have been very constraining on some of the development that's taking place. So are you happy as a as Team Plymouth that you will the sandbox or the regulatory system will be amended enough for, uh, marine autonomous vehicles to be tested in the way that they need to be.
Is that something you're confident about, or is that something that you need more pressure on government?And hopefully you'll continue to have a defence minister as an MP after this week.
Is that something you're confident about, or is that something that you need more pressure on government?And hopefully you'll continue to have a defence minister as an MP after this week.
11:28
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Um, so it's, it's, it's a really positive start. Um, but there is so much more to do. And I think what's vital is, um, not not listening to me, but listening to those businesses that are really at the cutting edge, um, of, of, of this, this work, what is it that they need?And what's great about having a cluster of businesses is, um, you know, people can come and visit them and they will walk around and they'll see them quite literally tinkering with Kit, uh, next to a computer.
So it's normally a spanner and a computer where they're programming and, you know, upgrading the, the, the kit and seeing what's, uh, what's needed. But, but there is tension, there inevitably will be tension in terms of, you know, those maritime regulations are there for a reason. Um, but how do we do that?Um, but we need to do it at pace. So one of the key things that we have been pushing for is that bill to move forward, um, at, at pace, um, like everything, you don't want it too quick because you'll probably get it wrong, but um, but if it is too slow, our businesses are going to be left behind and they really need, they have got some amazing technology both for defence and security.
Um, and you know, on the horizon for us in the south west is the floating offshore wind in the Celtic Celtic Sea and the opportunities that autonomous vehicles provide to support that whole system. So security can be defence, but it can also be our energy security.
So it's normally a spanner and a computer where they're programming and, you know, upgrading the, the, the kit and seeing what's, uh, what's needed. But, but there is tension, there inevitably will be tension in terms of, you know, those maritime regulations are there for a reason. Um, but how do we do that?Um, but we need to do it at pace. So one of the key things that we have been pushing for is that bill to move forward, um, at, at pace, um, like everything, you don't want it too quick because you'll probably get it wrong, but um, but if it is too slow, our businesses are going to be left behind and they really need, they have got some amazing technology both for defence and security.
Um, and you know, on the horizon for us in the south west is the floating offshore wind in the Celtic Celtic Sea and the opportunities that autonomous vehicles provide to support that whole system. So security can be defence, but it can also be our energy security.
11:29
11:29
11:30
11:30
11:30
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Yes. You've you've you've stressed the positives and there are, there are, there are loads. And it's an impressive story. But I was counting the, the downsides for the local community and they're very real. There's your 25,000 extra workers. Meaning that a lot of workers will be sucked out of other industries to go into defence, and other people will be will be worried about that. I was also worried about housing for the extra population. Plymouth's housing problems are not great as quite a lot of other places, but you still have severe shortages and you've you've got local government reorganisation coming along.
Are you going to be part of a wider Devon combined authority, or are you going to go your own way?There are quite big issues, quite big downsides to the expansion and growth of the defence industries. Can you just talk a little bit about how you're reacting to those?
Are you going to be part of a wider Devon combined authority, or are you going to go your own way?There are quite big issues, quite big downsides to the expansion and growth of the defence industries. Can you just talk a little bit about how you're reacting to those?
11:31
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes, absolutely. With every opportunity comes those massive risks. And our job as Team Plymouth is to meet the opportunities, but actually mitigate those risks as best we can. And that's that's a tough one. Um, because defence of the realm has to move forward. The Mod know what they need to do and they need to keep moving. Um what we've done is to try and corral other government departments to help us with this. If we've got mission led government, it needs to be mission led.
We tend to join up at place and try and stitch stuff together as best we as best we can. But we do need, um, other government departments to recognise the challenges now. Um, and therefore the pace at which some of the funding comes forward is, is quite slow. Um, and we're never quite sure of the funding routes for, um for, for that, so that applies to the housing, um, where we need to get moving with 10,000 homes and city in the city centre, we know we need to, to land, land that because otherwise, as well as upskilling our own population, we need people to relocate.
And those 5500 people in the dockyards who are retiring might not all want to live in the houses they're in. They might want to live in different housing. So housing mix is really important. Um, although the challenge of housing isn't as extreme as other parts of the country. Um, on average we have 50 inquiries for every rental property in the city. Um, our housing market is um, has collapsed. Um, and you would think that with that level of demand, then the private sector would just step in.
Um, but the gap in terms of the requirements, the, the, the, the need to, um, meet the infrastructure needs of property means that the private sector, um, won't come in at this, at this stage to fill that, that housing gap, we need um, grant funding to be able to move forward. Homes England is alongside us. Um, but we are working with Mhclg on housing funding. That is going to be really, really important for the for the future. You're absolutely right. Those businesses keeping our businesses, all those other businesses alive, well, supporting them is really important.
Um, the wage levels for, for Babcock have increased. Um, that's money on defence spend. Um, if those wage levels go up to too high. Um but it's also those businesses that are really at risk of not being able to find those workers. So the only way forward is if we all work together. Otherwise all we'll do is cannibalize from, from each other. And, and that includes the public services as, as well, because project managers that we will need for local government reorganisation, um, are also highly sought after by Babcock, for instance, in the dockyard, HR staff, uh, asset management people.
So it affects the public service as well as the private sector in terms of the the impact if we don't get this right.
We tend to join up at place and try and stitch stuff together as best we as best we can. But we do need, um, other government departments to recognise the challenges now. Um, and therefore the pace at which some of the funding comes forward is, is quite slow. Um, and we're never quite sure of the funding routes for, um for, for that, so that applies to the housing, um, where we need to get moving with 10,000 homes and city in the city centre, we know we need to, to land, land that because otherwise, as well as upskilling our own population, we need people to relocate.
And those 5500 people in the dockyards who are retiring might not all want to live in the houses they're in. They might want to live in different housing. So housing mix is really important. Um, although the challenge of housing isn't as extreme as other parts of the country. Um, on average we have 50 inquiries for every rental property in the city. Um, our housing market is um, has collapsed. Um, and you would think that with that level of demand, then the private sector would just step in.
Um, but the gap in terms of the requirements, the, the, the, the need to, um, meet the infrastructure needs of property means that the private sector, um, won't come in at this, at this stage to fill that, that housing gap, we need um, grant funding to be able to move forward. Homes England is alongside us. Um, but we are working with Mhclg on housing funding. That is going to be really, really important for the for the future. You're absolutely right. Those businesses keeping our businesses, all those other businesses alive, well, supporting them is really important.
Um, the wage levels for, for Babcock have increased. Um, that's money on defence spend. Um, if those wage levels go up to too high. Um but it's also those businesses that are really at risk of not being able to find those workers. So the only way forward is if we all work together. Otherwise all we'll do is cannibalize from, from each other. And, and that includes the public services as, as well, because project managers that we will need for local government reorganisation, um, are also highly sought after by Babcock, for instance, in the dockyard, HR staff, uh, asset management people.
So it affects the public service as well as the private sector in terms of the the impact if we don't get this right.
11:34
11:34
11:35
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Uh, good morning. I've got two questions. Really. Um, to what extent is the investment, um, fully funded by either government or by yourselves or by your partners?Or are the shortfalls and are the problems as a result of that?And my second question is, before you started on all this, what level of consultation did you receive from the government?Um, before the growth deal was announced or or has it just evolved without any kind of consultation?
11:35
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Um, so the first question is, is it fully funded?No, because it's a 70 year programme. So it, it won't be fully, it won't be fully funded. And I think we are very much at the in the foothills of what we what we need to do. Programmes like this are, are massive. And um however, um, if I just tell you the funding that we have had in the last year and when I say we, I'm talking place, not council, I'd love this money.
It's not mine. Um, so we have had uh, 50 million, which is the defence growth deal. We're one of the five defence growth deals. We are in the place we're in at the moment submitting the business case for that, uh, that will go into mod. So we hope that's um to hear about that in the, the, the autumn that's taken quite a long time to get to this stage, but I think we're, we're clear on, on that. Um, we've had £10 million for a defence technical college.
We have had £20 million for a local innovation partnership fund. That's for innovation. That is university led, um innovation. Um and we have had investment from Crown Estates and Babcock. The National Capability Centre, their investment in the, in the city centre, the commitment is 60 million. Um and we've had 9 million from the office for students to increase um defence, uh, graduate training courses for undergraduate courses for the university. That's all in 2026. Um, we are working with Department for Work and Pensions.
We are part of the connect work programme. Most places are, we could spend four times the money that DWP have given us to get people into work. We know the programmes work, but we just need more money to get into work. Um, we are constantly making that case to government. Um that actually if you can bring the funding programmes that government has together and use them in Plymouth, you can use them quite wisely in Plymouth, uh, to effectively double the money that's coming in.
So if you think about the defence um, growth deal as almost the seed money, um, if other government departments come alongside that, then you do get more for your money. And that's always the way that, um, you know, we work in, in a place that we are trying to look at matching that, that money, um, just on the, the consultation, we were working with governments from 2024, um, quite frankly, pushing and encouraging and saying, we need help with this level of investment coming to the city. Um, we, if we don't do something collectively with you as government, this city is going to not be able to do the job you need it to do for UK plc or for all those other businesses that are needed.
So, um, I would say it's in many ways, it's slightly the other way round that, um, we've done a significant amount of lobbying as partners across the city to really make sure that other government departments understand the primary needs that we have as a place to defend the realm and to make sure that we are able to support the businesses that are going to be part of that defence and security environment going forward. So, um, it's, it's a little bit of a reverse consultation, um, pushing and cajoling sometimes to make that happen.
But I'm very, very pleased with where we have got to. But there is a lot more we need to do. And I think one of those pieces is there are lots of places in the country that have a story about growth. Um, and all those stories are absolutely valid and relevant. The difference is when your story is about defence led growth. Um, I would say this, I think we go into a slightly different category because it is so important for the, the country as a whole, um, that if we are in a category that is general growth, then the danger is that we don't, we're not, we're not able to access the resources that we will need to do this job for the country.
It's not mine. Um, so we have had uh, 50 million, which is the defence growth deal. We're one of the five defence growth deals. We are in the place we're in at the moment submitting the business case for that, uh, that will go into mod. So we hope that's um to hear about that in the, the, the autumn that's taken quite a long time to get to this stage, but I think we're, we're clear on, on that. Um, we've had £10 million for a defence technical college.
We have had £20 million for a local innovation partnership fund. That's for innovation. That is university led, um innovation. Um and we have had investment from Crown Estates and Babcock. The National Capability Centre, their investment in the, in the city centre, the commitment is 60 million. Um and we've had 9 million from the office for students to increase um defence, uh, graduate training courses for undergraduate courses for the university. That's all in 2026. Um, we are working with Department for Work and Pensions.
We are part of the connect work programme. Most places are, we could spend four times the money that DWP have given us to get people into work. We know the programmes work, but we just need more money to get into work. Um, we are constantly making that case to government. Um that actually if you can bring the funding programmes that government has together and use them in Plymouth, you can use them quite wisely in Plymouth, uh, to effectively double the money that's coming in.
So if you think about the defence um, growth deal as almost the seed money, um, if other government departments come alongside that, then you do get more for your money. And that's always the way that, um, you know, we work in, in a place that we are trying to look at matching that, that money, um, just on the, the consultation, we were working with governments from 2024, um, quite frankly, pushing and encouraging and saying, we need help with this level of investment coming to the city. Um, we, if we don't do something collectively with you as government, this city is going to not be able to do the job you need it to do for UK plc or for all those other businesses that are needed.
So, um, I would say it's in many ways, it's slightly the other way round that, um, we've done a significant amount of lobbying as partners across the city to really make sure that other government departments understand the primary needs that we have as a place to defend the realm and to make sure that we are able to support the businesses that are going to be part of that defence and security environment going forward. So, um, it's, it's a little bit of a reverse consultation, um, pushing and cajoling sometimes to make that happen.
But I'm very, very pleased with where we have got to. But there is a lot more we need to do. And I think one of those pieces is there are lots of places in the country that have a story about growth. Um, and all those stories are absolutely valid and relevant. The difference is when your story is about defence led growth. Um, I would say this, I think we go into a slightly different category because it is so important for the, the country as a whole, um, that if we are in a category that is general growth, then the danger is that we don't, we're not, we're not able to access the resources that we will need to do this job for the country.
11:39
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Can I just follow up my my understanding and I might have this understanding wrong, is that Barrow has gone down a very different route to you that they have. Um, there's much more central government, um, control over the process. While it seems to me from what you're saying, it's very much led by, um the city. Is that true or is that not correct.
11:40
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I would say it's, it's absolutely a partnership. Um, but it's, I wouldn't say it was top, it was top down from, from government. We've taken an approach that is much more, um, well, I, I wouldn't want to say about Barrow, but our approach is very system based, which is looking at a whole city system and saying, what does this system need to do the work it needs to do?So the partners in the city and I include the naval base. Um, Babcock, our university, our private sector partners, all recognising that if we don't do something, uh, this is going to have our biggest opportunity is not going to be delivered.
Um, so we started with ourselves because that's always the best way. Start with what you can do. I think we soon recognised that this was much bigger than a city endeavour. Um, our partners across the region are involved, Cornwall, Devon and Torbay are part of Team Plymouth um in Cornwall they sometimes like to call it Team Tamar. Um but um it's uh because we recognise that the skills base, the transport needs, the housing needs won't just be met by one single council and one single place.
It is a bigger, it's a bigger thing. Um, I think we've worked really hard knocking on the doors of lots of government departments. Um and um I um and the leader of my, my council, we take every opportunity we can to make sure the message is heard in all the government departments. And I think they all understand the message. I think what we would love to see is a, an even more co-ordinated government approach to, to, to Team Plymouth, the Mod Mhclg are absolutely alongside us DFT.
Are there. Um, but I think um there's much more we can do with other government departments. We're one of four places that the Treasury are testing what's called a place based business case. And we really hope for good things from the place based business case. Um, no money is attached to that at the moment, but what it's about is a different approach that the Treasury are taking to say, can you tell your story once?Don't every time. What often happens with bids is that, um, we will make a bid to about housing and someone will say yes, but that's really interesting.
But you haven't got the transport, so we can't deliver the housing. Um, and then someone else will say, well, why would we do that transport?Because you haven't got X, Y, z. And the idea is that we, we, if we produce one strategic business case for why Plymouth and why investment in Plymouth is important. And um, if that moves forward, the idea is individual departmental business cases hang off that um we've certainly got a lot of traction from the departments that have um large capital spends.
Um I think what we're really keen to do is bring those other government departments, particularly the DWP, more into that, um that work because we know that the answer, you know, if we are going to make sure that the life chances of everyone in our city and our region is lifted, then, um, that getting people into work and into jobs and into better jobs is going to be vital.
Um, so we started with ourselves because that's always the best way. Start with what you can do. I think we soon recognised that this was much bigger than a city endeavour. Um, our partners across the region are involved, Cornwall, Devon and Torbay are part of Team Plymouth um in Cornwall they sometimes like to call it Team Tamar. Um but um it's uh because we recognise that the skills base, the transport needs, the housing needs won't just be met by one single council and one single place.
It is a bigger, it's a bigger thing. Um, I think we've worked really hard knocking on the doors of lots of government departments. Um and um I um and the leader of my, my council, we take every opportunity we can to make sure the message is heard in all the government departments. And I think they all understand the message. I think what we would love to see is a, an even more co-ordinated government approach to, to, to Team Plymouth, the Mod Mhclg are absolutely alongside us DFT.
Are there. Um, but I think um there's much more we can do with other government departments. We're one of four places that the Treasury are testing what's called a place based business case. And we really hope for good things from the place based business case. Um, no money is attached to that at the moment, but what it's about is a different approach that the Treasury are taking to say, can you tell your story once?Don't every time. What often happens with bids is that, um, we will make a bid to about housing and someone will say yes, but that's really interesting.
But you haven't got the transport, so we can't deliver the housing. Um, and then someone else will say, well, why would we do that transport?Because you haven't got X, Y, z. And the idea is that we, we, if we produce one strategic business case for why Plymouth and why investment in Plymouth is important. And um, if that moves forward, the idea is individual departmental business cases hang off that um we've certainly got a lot of traction from the departments that have um large capital spends.
Um I think what we're really keen to do is bring those other government departments, particularly the DWP, more into that, um that work because we know that the answer, you know, if we are going to make sure that the life chances of everyone in our city and our region is lifted, then, um, that getting people into work and into jobs and into better jobs is going to be vital.
11:43
11:43
11:43
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Um, so I think what's really important is the office for investment are working closely with our businesses. So I wouldn't say it's easy to access the, the, the, the funding for them. Um, but I think we have got mechanisms to, to, to do that. One of the big issues for many of our businesses, and I'm sure if you take evidence from, from many businesses is waiting for the defence investment plan. Um, you probably have heard that a few times, a number of businesses that will say when, what, how, um, and how do we start to, to, to, to bid.
So, um, businesses aren't, aren't looking for, you know, they're not looking for hands out handouts that early stage innovation test and grow is important, but very often it's understanding the route through to bidding for, for, for contracts and whether that's prime contracts or it's through supply chains. Um, the sooner that can be settled, the sooner our businesses can get on and, and do that bidding.
So, um, businesses aren't, aren't looking for, you know, they're not looking for hands out handouts that early stage innovation test and grow is important, but very often it's understanding the route through to bidding for, for, for contracts and whether that's prime contracts or it's through supply chains. Um, the sooner that can be settled, the sooner our businesses can get on and, and do that bidding.
11:44
11:44
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
You've said a lot about skills already. And so you've answered quite a lot of the questions I was going to ask. Uh, it seems to me that the partnerships that you've described with the university and the college and the investment that Babcock has been prepared to make in leading your education strand is absolutely exemplary. But some of the smaller questions that still occur to me include. The extent to which you're going to be able to prevent the big prime. Um, Babcock um, absorbing all the potentially skilled workforce because they are able to grow their own and the smaller companies are going to be reliant on, um, central government investment.
So is your partnership going to be able to prevent that happening?Uh, also, we've heard, I've heard from other places and it may not apply to Plymouth, but maybe you can give us some reassurance that young people at school who might be contemplating going into apprentices or people leaving university have said that they are, by and large, not encouraged to go into the defence industry, and that may be different in Plymouth because it's a defence focused city. Um, but is that a factor, uh, that you. Have to.
Take into account when you're talking about building the skills base.
So is your partnership going to be able to prevent that happening?Uh, also, we've heard, I've heard from other places and it may not apply to Plymouth, but maybe you can give us some reassurance that young people at school who might be contemplating going into apprentices or people leaving university have said that they are, by and large, not encouraged to go into the defence industry, and that may be different in Plymouth because it's a defence focused city. Um, but is that a factor, uh, that you. Have to.
Take into account when you're talking about building the skills base.
11:46
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Those they are really they are really, really pertinent pertinent questions. Um, so what we're doing in the skills environment is trying to create a whole system. I would say we are still in the foothills of, of that. One of the things that we really want to do, I've described it, our team Plymouth boards the other day, we need the church spire. Totaliser 25000. How are we doing?Where are we?What are we doing?So we are looking at an observatory to be able to really pin down.
Have we are we making a difference?And if we're not, we need to change change course. So we are absolutely at the foothills. So it might be the partnership I think is is exemplary in the way in which we've set it up. Having a defence technical college, having a university that is a defence university, then really understanding the work that needs to happen, um, is, is absolutely vital, but we are nowhere near where we need to be. And every day I have businesses in the city saying their workforce is being poached.
Um, so we, the pace at which we need to work has got to accelerate. Um, Babcock are a really key important partner who, and I think they, and I know they genuinely recognise that dilemma of needing the workforce that they need and they need to fulfil their contracts and deliver at the same time, recognising that every time the managing director comes into a meeting, he's can be, you know, bombarded by people saying, how why did you why did you poach those those people?But so we are in that situation.
And the only way out is to work together. Um, one of the things that we've been talking about is, is Babcock actually, in terms of its graduate programme is oversubscribed. Its apprenticeship program is oversubscribed. So there must be a way in which all of those people that are applying for apprenticeships, applying for graduate placements, we can help with the bureau to get them into other businesses in the city. So the way in which we use Babcock, as if you like, the catalyst for attracting people to to the industry, is really important.
And then it's about how, um, how they're fed, fed out and fed across the, the wider, the wider city. Um, but every, every day we are facing those, those challenges, um, in relation to the defence industries, I think you're, you're, you're right. Um defence industry security is in the city's DNA. We're, we have a nuclear dockyard in our city centre. We have to do an off site test every three years to make sure that that nuclear licence is renewed. So the city lives with an understanding of its of its dockyard.
Um, but, you know, the city has a changing dynamic and demographic. People come into the city and move around. And there have been questions around, um, do is this right?And particularly those that sense of what defence means in, in, in practice. And I think that's about talking through and people understanding what defence industries are about. And as I said earlier, what security industries are about people, even those that aren't always in favour of defence, would like the internet to work and a cable not to be cut.
Um, so there is something about those that kind of dual use technology that is really, really important for the, the work that we're, that we're doing as a place. Um, we don't want to be known as a place that it's a dockyard. Um, we are a city, we are a vibrant city. We have a huge amount going on in the city. We have other industries in the city. And so this is our absolute, this is our golden opportunity.
This is our Olympics. Um, but at the same time, we neglect everybody else, um, and our other industries at our peril, our cultural industries are growing. And that's really important if we want people to relocate people like a lovely environment to live in, they want things to do. Um, our museum has just won the museum of the year. It's beaten the V&A storehouse and the National Gallery to be the National Museum of the year. Um, it was open five years ago.
We knew we needed to have cultural attractions and we wanted to be a city that absolutely people could come and be in our city, live, grow up in the city, and have really great things to, to do. And culture is very much at the heart of that.
Have we are we making a difference?And if we're not, we need to change change course. So we are absolutely at the foothills. So it might be the partnership I think is is exemplary in the way in which we've set it up. Having a defence technical college, having a university that is a defence university, then really understanding the work that needs to happen, um, is, is absolutely vital, but we are nowhere near where we need to be. And every day I have businesses in the city saying their workforce is being poached.
Um, so we, the pace at which we need to work has got to accelerate. Um, Babcock are a really key important partner who, and I think they, and I know they genuinely recognise that dilemma of needing the workforce that they need and they need to fulfil their contracts and deliver at the same time, recognising that every time the managing director comes into a meeting, he's can be, you know, bombarded by people saying, how why did you why did you poach those those people?But so we are in that situation.
And the only way out is to work together. Um, one of the things that we've been talking about is, is Babcock actually, in terms of its graduate programme is oversubscribed. Its apprenticeship program is oversubscribed. So there must be a way in which all of those people that are applying for apprenticeships, applying for graduate placements, we can help with the bureau to get them into other businesses in the city. So the way in which we use Babcock, as if you like, the catalyst for attracting people to to the industry, is really important.
And then it's about how, um, how they're fed, fed out and fed across the, the wider, the wider city. Um, but every, every day we are facing those, those challenges, um, in relation to the defence industries, I think you're, you're, you're right. Um defence industry security is in the city's DNA. We're, we have a nuclear dockyard in our city centre. We have to do an off site test every three years to make sure that that nuclear licence is renewed. So the city lives with an understanding of its of its dockyard.
Um, but, you know, the city has a changing dynamic and demographic. People come into the city and move around. And there have been questions around, um, do is this right?And particularly those that sense of what defence means in, in, in practice. And I think that's about talking through and people understanding what defence industries are about. And as I said earlier, what security industries are about people, even those that aren't always in favour of defence, would like the internet to work and a cable not to be cut.
Um, so there is something about those that kind of dual use technology that is really, really important for the, the work that we're, that we're doing as a place. Um, we don't want to be known as a place that it's a dockyard. Um, we are a city, we are a vibrant city. We have a huge amount going on in the city. We have other industries in the city. And so this is our absolute, this is our golden opportunity.
This is our Olympics. Um, but at the same time, we neglect everybody else, um, and our other industries at our peril, our cultural industries are growing. And that's really important if we want people to relocate people like a lovely environment to live in, they want things to do. Um, our museum has just won the museum of the year. It's beaten the V&A storehouse and the National Gallery to be the National Museum of the year. Um, it was open five years ago.
We knew we needed to have cultural attractions and we wanted to be a city that absolutely people could come and be in our city, live, grow up in the city, and have really great things to, to do. And culture is very much at the heart of that.
11:51
11:51
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Good morning Tracy. Um, the UK has various testing facilities for the marine defence sector. For example, the National Oceanography Centre in Southampton and at Blythe. But there is a real genuine lack of access to end to end facilities to test and evaluate new defence capabilities. Um that's something that's a particularly acute problem for the smaller defence companies who can't afford to sort of fill in the gaps themselves, which the primes can. Um, how will Plymouth's Defence Growth Fund deal, um provide the testing facilities in Plymouth and in Plymouth sound um that the UK needs and what role the council play and ensuring sufficient end to end test and evaluation capacity.
11:52
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Um so I think that's, that's absolutely key. Um and the defence growth deal. Um so we have got a notional allocation. Um but the proposals for the deal are just being worked through at the moment. But what we do know is a big slug of that cash needs to go into developing the National Centre for Marine Autonomy. Um, both to make sure that we can connect the businesses together, but also to make sure that the testing facilities are right.
So our university has a absolutely giant wave tank, um, which is great for that first stage testing of kit. What they then businesses then need to do is move out of the wave tank and into Plymouth Sound and Test in Plymouth Sound. And then when they tested in Plymouth Sound, they need to go out past the breakwater and start testing in um you know, much more tricky and much more tricky environment. All of that comes together, the sort of instrumentation you have. Um, there's a lot of kit and of course we talk about the marine autonomy industry moving at pace, the kit that you need to test moves at pace.
So creating, um, a. Nation that is the marine institution for autonomy is going to be really important. So smaller businesses can access what they need. Many businesses though, we have got a really big cluster of marine autonomy businesses at Turnchapel, one of which has water, water access. Um, and, you know, one of the latest purchases they've got is a three D printer. So some of it is, it seems like quite basic stuff. I think they got it from another place in the city, but actually some of the kits that they need to develop and test the prototypes types needs that sense of fast testing.
So all of that will come together as part of the defence growth deal. And we'll be putting the submission in very shortly to the the board in the Mod that will decide the allocation of that of that funding.
So our university has a absolutely giant wave tank, um, which is great for that first stage testing of kit. What they then businesses then need to do is move out of the wave tank and into Plymouth Sound and Test in Plymouth Sound. And then when they tested in Plymouth Sound, they need to go out past the breakwater and start testing in um you know, much more tricky and much more tricky environment. All of that comes together, the sort of instrumentation you have. Um, there's a lot of kit and of course we talk about the marine autonomy industry moving at pace, the kit that you need to test moves at pace.
So creating, um, a. Nation that is the marine institution for autonomy is going to be really important. So smaller businesses can access what they need. Many businesses though, we have got a really big cluster of marine autonomy businesses at Turnchapel, one of which has water, water access. Um, and, you know, one of the latest purchases they've got is a three D printer. So some of it is, it seems like quite basic stuff. I think they got it from another place in the city, but actually some of the kits that they need to develop and test the prototypes types needs that sense of fast testing.
So all of that will come together as part of the defence growth deal. And we'll be putting the submission in very shortly to the the board in the Mod that will decide the allocation of that of that funding.
11:54
11:54
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So, um, I'm, I'm not an expert on regulation. I do say I'm, I'm not, but I do know our businesses do. There is, there are it's only small areas. There are only small areas that they can test in. And that point around, you know, for a vessel to go out, whatever that vessel is, um, it should have life jackets on, on board and it should have fire suppressant kit and it needs all sorts of other flares. I don't know who's going to let off the flare.
Um, so there's, there's that sense of what that regulation is about. So, um, some of our vessels have to be, um, that they're testing out have to be towed. Um, because they can't be autonomous. They're not, they're not allowed to be by themselves. So you'll see them going out with the vessel in front and along, um, the toddler chain rein. Um, so that they can be, they can be attached. So I think it's that sense of the, the regulations that need, we need some pragmatism about those, those regulations as well as the safety.
Um, I'm a sailor. I don't want to be, you know, running, being run aground by an autonomous submarine where I, you know, it's underwater and it's just doing, it's doing its own thing. Um, and surfacing. So we've got to be able to, to make sure that it's done at pace. It's done safely. But we are going to have to take a few risks in this space as well if we are going to move at pace. And part of that is that when our businesses are looking globally, they are seeing other places that are testing this kit and are starting to develop.
So if we want to maintain a position which is being internationally significant in marine autonomy, particularly marine autonomy, moving forward with that, um ability, the regulatory environment is very important. And of course, you know, one of the things we'll say we've been doing some work with the National Physical Laboratory because of the instrumentation and testing that's needed. But also Lloyd's Register, there are big opportunities as well in changing maritime regulations. Maritime regulations are used all over the globe. Um, so there are opportunities there as, as well.
If we, if we take them.
Um, so there's, there's that sense of what that regulation is about. So, um, some of our vessels have to be, um, that they're testing out have to be towed. Um, because they can't be autonomous. They're not, they're not allowed to be by themselves. So you'll see them going out with the vessel in front and along, um, the toddler chain rein. Um, so that they can be, they can be attached. So I think it's that sense of the, the regulations that need, we need some pragmatism about those, those regulations as well as the safety.
Um, I'm a sailor. I don't want to be, you know, running, being run aground by an autonomous submarine where I, you know, it's underwater and it's just doing, it's doing its own thing. Um, and surfacing. So we've got to be able to, to make sure that it's done at pace. It's done safely. But we are going to have to take a few risks in this space as well if we are going to move at pace. And part of that is that when our businesses are looking globally, they are seeing other places that are testing this kit and are starting to develop.
So if we want to maintain a position which is being internationally significant in marine autonomy, particularly marine autonomy, moving forward with that, um ability, the regulatory environment is very important. And of course, you know, one of the things we'll say we've been doing some work with the National Physical Laboratory because of the instrumentation and testing that's needed. But also Lloyd's Register, there are big opportunities as well in changing maritime regulations. Maritime regulations are used all over the globe. Um, so there are opportunities there as, as well.
If we, if we take them.
11:56
11:56
11:57
11:57
11:57
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So we will need to work through. So at the moment the national the National Centre for Marine Autonomy is um is a um is. A whole system, but it has no firm base. It may be that it's the university that own it just in terms of somebody has to own it, own, own it. They own a lot of the smart sound kit. We've got a lot of we call it smart sounds. They've got a. We've got a lot of kit there.
Um, or the Freeport. Um, so we have bodies in the city that would be natural homes for um, for, for those things it sits alongside Sammo the mod. Um, uh, testing, uh, system. So again, working with the mod is really important on, on what they're doing.
Um, or the Freeport. Um, so we have bodies in the city that would be natural homes for um, for, for those things it sits alongside Sammo the mod. Um, uh, testing, uh, system. So again, working with the mod is really important on, on what they're doing.
11:58
11:58
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Thank you. Um, my question is about learning from other business sectors, but if I can just add some bits on either side of it. Um, so the first thing to say is I do a lot of work in place regeneration. So there are a lot of things I could ask you. And actually I am an advisor to the centre for Coastal Communities in Plymouth University. Um, so I should declare that anyway. Probably. Um and I note, let me just ask the other question.
I'll come to the question I'm supposed to be asking, but I note your challenge about the skills wiring, which I deal with frequently. I'm just interested in the numbers because you're talking 25,000. Um, so in the whole of Cornwall, just googling, there are only 7000 NEETs in the whole of Cornwall. There are 100,000 under 18 year olds. So this 25,000 is not coming from Plymouth. It's not coming from Cornwall. It's not coming from Cornwall and Devon.
And I just can't from the way you're talking about. Quite see how that feed in is happening. Um and it doesn't give me as much confidence as one might hope that a lot of government departments are somehow involved. So if I may, I'll just ask that question. But then then, um, and actually I was interested in the relationship between you and Cornwall. Um, in terms of sort of governance hierarchy, um, if I ask the question I was going to ask, which is the lessons from the other sectors, but specifically for a local authority, I think Preston Council used to be very good at local sourcing from SMEs.
And so I don't know whether there's a lesson there, but my question is whether there's a lesson for other sectors about how to support the, um, the tail of the SME. And you mentioned the Olympics. So so whether there's lessons from how the Olympics supported the tail of the SMEs.
I'll come to the question I'm supposed to be asking, but I note your challenge about the skills wiring, which I deal with frequently. I'm just interested in the numbers because you're talking 25,000. Um, so in the whole of Cornwall, just googling, there are only 7000 NEETs in the whole of Cornwall. There are 100,000 under 18 year olds. So this 25,000 is not coming from Plymouth. It's not coming from Cornwall. It's not coming from Cornwall and Devon.
And I just can't from the way you're talking about. Quite see how that feed in is happening. Um and it doesn't give me as much confidence as one might hope that a lot of government departments are somehow involved. So if I may, I'll just ask that question. But then then, um, and actually I was interested in the relationship between you and Cornwall. Um, in terms of sort of governance hierarchy, um, if I ask the question I was going to ask, which is the lessons from the other sectors, but specifically for a local authority, I think Preston Council used to be very good at local sourcing from SMEs.
And so I don't know whether there's a lesson there, but my question is whether there's a lesson for other sectors about how to support the, um, the tail of the SME. And you mentioned the Olympics. So so whether there's lessons from how the Olympics supported the tail of the SMEs.
12:01
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Um, do you. Want me to pick up another stage?It's okay. So just in terms of the, um the, the SMEs and support having um the social value workstream is really important. Um, because that workstream is very much one of the things that we're really keen to do is um in defence there is in every contract there'll be a paragraph that says say what social value you're going to add. And um, we love it when people sponsor a football kit, but we'd much rather they put people on governing bodies of schools that they think about upskilling, how many apprentices, how many local apprenticeships they're going to, to have.
Um, and so what we really want to do, and we're starting this work is to create a menu, um, and a menu of, if you are applying for a defense contract, here are some things that will sit above sponsoring a football kit or I mean, we love flowers on a roundabout too, but the things that are going to make a real difference in terms of what we do. And I think what's really important is actually how some of those bigger prime contracts can support some of the SMEs in doing that.
What is it that those SMEs need?Do they need mentoring?Do they need support?Do they need a system where apprentices can work between them?How how can that system be improved?So I think there are ways in which we can encourage businesses to support each other, um, with those that are more prime helping those that perhaps need extra extra support. So I'm not sure if I've answered your question.
Um, and so what we really want to do, and we're starting this work is to create a menu, um, and a menu of, if you are applying for a defense contract, here are some things that will sit above sponsoring a football kit or I mean, we love flowers on a roundabout too, but the things that are going to make a real difference in terms of what we do. And I think what's really important is actually how some of those bigger prime contracts can support some of the SMEs in doing that.
What is it that those SMEs need?Do they need mentoring?Do they need support?Do they need a system where apprentices can work between them?How how can that system be improved?So I think there are ways in which we can encourage businesses to support each other, um, with those that are more prime helping those that perhaps need extra extra support. So I'm not sure if I've answered your question.
12:02
12:02
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So we, we work, uh, we, we love to be in a gang in Plymouth. We really, we really do. We love to look up and out and say, who's done this?So we are trying to work with, with other places and the experience that we have in the south west of Hinkley and what's happened with Hinkley Point and the the development of the nuclear power station, there has been quite, uh, quite powerful in terms of particularly how those SMEs, um, how you bring them together and, um, help support them to get ready to, for, for contracts.
And, um, I know Babcock are doing work, um, to make sure that they have, uh, are supporting the development of SMEs are some, many of our SMEs in the city will still say, we don't know how to get a contract with one of the bigger, the bigger organisations. And of course, we all love a lot of paperwork and many of those businesses, um, that they are, you know, a few people. And if they're doing paperwork, they're not developing their, their business. So those ways in which we can help, but we've learned a lot through, um, when we had the local enterprise partnership and, and through the work for Hinkley.
And so my economic development team have done a lot of work in, in that. Um, and so I think that's a really fair, fair point about learning from others.
And, um, I know Babcock are doing work, um, to make sure that they have, uh, are supporting the development of SMEs are some, many of our SMEs in the city will still say, we don't know how to get a contract with one of the bigger, the bigger organisations. And of course, we all love a lot of paperwork and many of those businesses, um, that they are, you know, a few people. And if they're doing paperwork, they're not developing their, their business. So those ways in which we can help, but we've learned a lot through, um, when we had the local enterprise partnership and, and through the work for Hinkley.
And so my economic development team have done a lot of work in, in that. Um, and so I think that's a really fair, fair point about learning from others.
12:03
12:03
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So the skills number, you're right, it's a really scary number. We've got 100. I think we've got about 170 000 jobs in the city. We need 25,000 more. Um so this these are really big numbers. And I think it's only when you start to set that in the context that this is about defence of the realm, that you'll see my point around why there are other places that have big growth trajectories, but ours is so mission critical to the UK that we need everybody at the table.
Everybody saying, what can I do to support this?Um, learning the lessons from, from other places where there is a significant, um, big investment. Um, our primary job is to make sure that a £7.1 billion investment by the Mod is felt by the people of the city and felt by the people of the region. So the first job will always be, how do we make sure that people are feeling that difference?By being in work, uh, being in a better job, having a career, um, feeling, um, feeling that we can't do that alone.
We will not get 25000. People to fill the labour jobs that we have from Plymouth, which is why the relationship with Cornwall, particularly south east Cornwall, our relationship with Devon, our relationship with Torbay is so important. We have an MOU that the leaders of all four councils have signed, which is about working collectively on those programmes, on those skills development programmes, on the business support and particularly the transport programmes in getting people to the the jobs that that we know. In addition to that, there will be specialist recruitment, and we know that we need to make the South west, um, the best and the most attractive place it can be.
And that's why the regeneration of the city centre, creating the homes, creating the environment is really, really important. Um, and the work that we're doing to regenerate the city centre is vital when people arrive and say, where am I living?What am I going to do?Um, we've got some great attractions with you can be on the water in ten minutes. You can be on Dartmoor in 15 minutes. Um, but what we do know is that the very heart of our city, that regeneration and putting housing there is, is vital for the um of repositioning, um our, our city.
We've done a lot of work again, collectively with our partners on the brand marketing us as a, as a great, as a great place to, to, to be. And that is all part of how you bring the whole system together to, to make the change. Um, and to attract people, to get our graduates to stay like so many cities in the UK that have great universities, our graduates go off to the bright lights of, of, of other, other places. The graduate jobs are appearing and they are growing in the city.
And so we want our grads to, to stay and to have their careers with us.
Everybody saying, what can I do to support this?Um, learning the lessons from, from other places where there is a significant, um, big investment. Um, our primary job is to make sure that a £7.1 billion investment by the Mod is felt by the people of the city and felt by the people of the region. So the first job will always be, how do we make sure that people are feeling that difference?By being in work, uh, being in a better job, having a career, um, feeling, um, feeling that we can't do that alone.
We will not get 25000. People to fill the labour jobs that we have from Plymouth, which is why the relationship with Cornwall, particularly south east Cornwall, our relationship with Devon, our relationship with Torbay is so important. We have an MOU that the leaders of all four councils have signed, which is about working collectively on those programmes, on those skills development programmes, on the business support and particularly the transport programmes in getting people to the the jobs that that we know. In addition to that, there will be specialist recruitment, and we know that we need to make the South west, um, the best and the most attractive place it can be.
And that's why the regeneration of the city centre, creating the homes, creating the environment is really, really important. Um, and the work that we're doing to regenerate the city centre is vital when people arrive and say, where am I living?What am I going to do?Um, we've got some great attractions with you can be on the water in ten minutes. You can be on Dartmoor in 15 minutes. Um, but what we do know is that the very heart of our city, that regeneration and putting housing there is, is vital for the um of repositioning, um our, our city.
We've done a lot of work again, collectively with our partners on the brand marketing us as a, as a great, as a great place to, to, to be. And that is all part of how you bring the whole system together to, to make the change. Um, and to attract people, to get our graduates to stay like so many cities in the UK that have great universities, our graduates go off to the bright lights of, of, of other, other places. The graduate jobs are appearing and they are growing in the city.
And so we want our grads to, to stay and to have their careers with us.
12:06
12:06
12:06
Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Just one final question. Thank you. Um, your determination to succeed is clearly evident from evident from the evidence you're giving. But, um, perhaps a concluding question is key learnings. So, you know, there are more deals to come. So really your reflections on what could be improved in a the process. B the engagement of the different parties and C the decisions on funding that would improve the efficiency with which these growth deals could take place.
12:07
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Um. So I think that determination is there by um everybody in the partnership, um, we will use a phrase that because we've had, you know, in, in the time we've been doing this, we have thought we've found a route to funding. And then sometimes someone will say, oh, no, that's not the route anymore. Sometimes it feels like you're on an Army assault course and you've gone under the wire, and then you've got to go with that big wall, and then you've got to use the rope to climb up, and then you get to the end.
You're covered in mud. And someone says, that's not the assault course you need to be on. You need to be on the Royal Marine One over here. Um, so the route through has not been, has not been easy. The defence growth deal has, has in many ways changed that actually saying and the defence it being absolutely defence mission to defend the nation and to grow defence industries has been really, really key. Um and we for nearly two years we were trying to navigate how we would get there and then defence growth deals are part of the, of the, of the picture.
So I think that's been really, um, quite a game changer. I think what's important in terms of the lessons that we've learned is, um, we need to be in government departments, thoughts and prayers all the time. Um, there is a danger that we're ticked off a list. Um, and with 25,000 jobs in the next ten years, I can't be ticked off a list. We cannot be ticked off a list because there is so much still to be done. So we have to make sure that the system in place to connect places to government works and continues to deliver, and that the other government departments are absolutely focused on, um, mission led government.
And that's really, really important. We are still waiting for some outcomes on, um, housing, um, and housing investment. Um, and that's, that's, we're hoping for announcements in September. Um, but these are, these are delays that happen that just put us behind in terms of the trajectory that we need to, to change what we're, what we're, what we're doing. Um, I think the, the other, the other lesson is, um, that you've got to work with a little bit of messiness. Um, and you've got to be happy to, for it to be, it won't be a neat process because the defence growth deal is crucial to what we're doing, but there is other government funding and other funding that that comes through to us.
And so, um, you've got to deal with different owners and different masters of the money and that's fine as as well. So if the DFT are going to fund a road, then they're the master of that money for the road. It's not the mod that the master of the um, but the way it comes together in the place means that it joins up in, in one, in one system. Um, and that's really, really important. Um, I think, um. If I look back at the, the, the time we've, we've had, I would have hoped that we've got two government ministers who have been really, really positive and supportive.
Um, some of those have changed over time and, uh, I'm not sure what's going to happen as a result of that. The pace at which government then gets back up to speed with what needs to, needs to be done. Um, is, um, can be tricky. And, uh, we, the setbacks that we have, we will go in, we'll always say you'll have to kill us because if you wound us, we're getting up and we're coming again. Um, because that's so important that we have that resilience because this is, this is the thing that makes the difference for us and our communities.
And so, um, you know, when I wake up in the morning, I definitely have to think about local government reorganisation, but we have to this is the thing that is the game changer for us as a, as a place and a region, and therefore it has got to be on our minds and we'd like it on everybody else's minds too.
You're covered in mud. And someone says, that's not the assault course you need to be on. You need to be on the Royal Marine One over here. Um, so the route through has not been, has not been easy. The defence growth deal has, has in many ways changed that actually saying and the defence it being absolutely defence mission to defend the nation and to grow defence industries has been really, really key. Um and we for nearly two years we were trying to navigate how we would get there and then defence growth deals are part of the, of the, of the picture.
So I think that's been really, um, quite a game changer. I think what's important in terms of the lessons that we've learned is, um, we need to be in government departments, thoughts and prayers all the time. Um, there is a danger that we're ticked off a list. Um, and with 25,000 jobs in the next ten years, I can't be ticked off a list. We cannot be ticked off a list because there is so much still to be done. So we have to make sure that the system in place to connect places to government works and continues to deliver, and that the other government departments are absolutely focused on, um, mission led government.
And that's really, really important. We are still waiting for some outcomes on, um, housing, um, and housing investment. Um, and that's, that's, we're hoping for announcements in September. Um, but these are, these are delays that happen that just put us behind in terms of the trajectory that we need to, to change what we're, what we're, what we're doing. Um, I think the, the other, the other lesson is, um, that you've got to work with a little bit of messiness. Um, and you've got to be happy to, for it to be, it won't be a neat process because the defence growth deal is crucial to what we're doing, but there is other government funding and other funding that that comes through to us.
And so, um, you've got to deal with different owners and different masters of the money and that's fine as as well. So if the DFT are going to fund a road, then they're the master of that money for the road. It's not the mod that the master of the um, but the way it comes together in the place means that it joins up in, in one, in one system. Um, and that's really, really important. Um, I think, um. If I look back at the, the, the time we've, we've had, I would have hoped that we've got two government ministers who have been really, really positive and supportive.
Um, some of those have changed over time and, uh, I'm not sure what's going to happen as a result of that. The pace at which government then gets back up to speed with what needs to, needs to be done. Um, is, um, can be tricky. And, uh, we, the setbacks that we have, we will go in, we'll always say you'll have to kill us because if you wound us, we're getting up and we're coming again. Um, because that's so important that we have that resilience because this is, this is the thing that makes the difference for us and our communities.
And so, um, you know, when I wake up in the morning, I definitely have to think about local government reorganisation, but we have to this is the thing that is the game changer for us as a, as a place and a region, and therefore it has got to be on our minds and we'd like it on everybody else's minds too.
12:10
12:10
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Because of the way we've set it up. Well, I hope not. Anyway, that was a very firm no. And now I'm going to retrench a little bit. Uh, the way in which we set up Team Plymouth is that it is absolutely about the triumvirate. Um and about having partners that are equal, um, in, in this, the way in which we um for, for Plymouth with local government reorganisation, we will be a new council with an expanded the boundary.
We'll have 13 parishes. Um so there will be a lot of work to do, there'll be a lot of work to do across the system. Um, but what we've done is we have made sure that in the local government reorganisation bids that we've put in, that we have resourced, that one of the things that's always really important, we learn this from a number of emergencies we have, which is when you are dealing with one issue, you have to make sure that the other issues are taken care of.
No one thanks you afterwards. If you've turned your attention 100% in one direction, something else has fallen over. Um, so resourcing, resourcing that is going to be absolutely key from the point of view of local government reorganisation. The letter that we've had on local government reorganisation is really clear that um that the government see the way in which four councils will be created in Devon as a positive step for the next stage of devolution. And that point around um what next for, for us.
Um we are working on moving forward, subject to our council agreeing to go into a combined authority with our colleagues in Devon and Torbay. Our door is always open for Cornwall to come into that. Um but they have got their own um arrangements. Um but that sense of what comes next for devolution I think will be really important for Team Plymouth and how the wider um growth of the, the economy works. So um LGR is in many ways uh, absolutely vital, but is a, is, is a step in making sure that we have got a full unitary system for Devon, um, where we are able to move that growth agenda forward.
We'll have 13 parishes. Um so there will be a lot of work to do, there'll be a lot of work to do across the system. Um, but what we've done is we have made sure that in the local government reorganisation bids that we've put in, that we have resourced, that one of the things that's always really important, we learn this from a number of emergencies we have, which is when you are dealing with one issue, you have to make sure that the other issues are taken care of.
No one thanks you afterwards. If you've turned your attention 100% in one direction, something else has fallen over. Um, so resourcing, resourcing that is going to be absolutely key from the point of view of local government reorganisation. The letter that we've had on local government reorganisation is really clear that um that the government see the way in which four councils will be created in Devon as a positive step for the next stage of devolution. And that point around um what next for, for us.
Um we are working on moving forward, subject to our council agreeing to go into a combined authority with our colleagues in Devon and Torbay. Our door is always open for Cornwall to come into that. Um but they have got their own um arrangements. Um but that sense of what comes next for devolution I think will be really important for Team Plymouth and how the wider um growth of the, the economy works. So um LGR is in many ways uh, absolutely vital, but is a, is, is a step in making sure that we have got a full unitary system for Devon, um, where we are able to move that growth agenda forward.
12:13
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thank you. Mrs. Lee, thank you very much for your time today. You said not long ago that you hoped that the 7 billion, 7 billion will, um, really mean something for Plymouth. I have to say, looking from the UK, we're really hoping that that 7 billion keeps us all safe. Um, and that you sleep well at night, but then you wake up and you help keep the country safe because clearly what the role you're playing, if you could on our behalf, I think thank your colleagues at the Council, um, for, for that and for enabling you to come up today and share your experience with us.
I think it's very valuable for the inquiry we're doing.
I think it's very valuable for the inquiry we're doing.
12:13
12:13
12:13
12:14