Built Environment Committee

Tuesday 1st September 2026

(began 3 weeks ago)

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14:46
Lord Gascoigne Portrait Lord Gascoigne
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Since the summer recess. But as everyone knows, we've been talking about new towns and we're bringing that work to a conclusion. And there's no better way of doing that than than having our special guests, our special guest before us. And we're delighted to welcome the minister to talk to us, the man who's going to drive this through. He's a bit like Gandalf, if I may say. He's he's back, but he's even more powerful because now he also attends cabinet, so he's able to bash those heads together.

As we've been asking. I'm delighted the Prime Minister has acted on one of our recommendations in a in a previous report. But in all seriousness, Minister, we are delighted to have you here and congratulations on being reappointed. Power to your elbow, as they say. And we're also delighted to welcome back Lee sand from the Department. Thank you. I know how busy you are. So with that in mind, I was going to suggest we just go straight into it.

I think, you know, we're going to focus mainly on new towns. The first thing I'd like to ask if I if I may, minister, is I think I appreciate it's only 40 days in. Of the new Prime Minister, but is there any comparison that you could make or any comment you could make, having served under Prime Minister Starmer versus what it's like, what it's like now under Prime Minister Burnham? How are things going to change? And for you personally, now that you're attending cabinet, how do you see.

I appreciate 40 days in. But how do you see that position as being able to sort of strengthen your hand in, in driving this under 1.5 million through. Thanks for that opening question, chair. I think I'd say a couple of things. I think one is having the Housing and Planning minister attending cabinet alongside the Secretary of State is an indication of the importance the new Prime Minister places on housing. It's of real, real importance to him.

He's got strong views on the subject. He's delivered in Greater Manchester, he's learned some lessons about what works and what doesn't in Greater Manchester, which he's keen to to bring in and ensure that that's hardwired into the government's approach. I think the cabinet position does give the department as a whole some extra tools and ability to have more of those direct conversations, in particular with individual secretaries of state, where we need to coordinate across government to deliver in terms of what the 40 days of evidence, I think you've seen that change in priority.

We have slightly altered some of the announcements that we've made in recent weeks as a result of the new Prime Minister's refreshed priorities. A really good example is the social and Affordable Homes programme we announced just last week. First wave of funding out of that programme. We have left more of the funding back to be allocated to councils to do direct delivery of council house building. I think that's a sort of example of how we have pragmatically adapted the programmes to ensure that we keep pace, keep delivery going, but have slightly tweaked them to reflect the new Prime Minister's priorities.

Thank you. Can I just ask, and I'm very grateful. You wrote to me over the summer about the Nppf, which is another thing that you announced, and I think more broadly, it is welcomed by the sector as being pro-growth and trying to move development on. Is there? When I looked at the NPF and I checked again last night, there's no reference of new towns in there. And there's obviously talk about well connected stations.

And I just wonder if there's two questions I could ask around that. The first is, will the list of those new those well connected stations be announced? And I know that the criteria I think is in there. But is there a list so that we can see what exactly those locations are and relate to that? Is there any correlation between those well connected stations in those areas and the new towns programme at all? Because, for example, and forgive me for not knowing, but, you know, DFT will have a very big interest in making sure that the capacity on those stations works.

You know, are they plugged into it? Is there any conflict? Is there any competition between those well connected stations and new towns? I don't believe so. Let me let me say a couple of bits on that point, but specifically on the travel to work areas, we certainly published the 60 travel to work areas alongside the draft NPF that we consulted on. I can ensure the committee gets the full 80 travel to work area, so it can see where we're talking about in terms of well connected stations, we obviously tied minimum density requirements to different service frequencies at different well connected stations to reflect the amount of capacity on the line.

DFT you're absolutely right. We'll be looking at forward projections and where it needs to put capacity on the new towns programme, specifically, what I'd come back to, and it relates to the consultation that we've undertaken since I last was in front of you. We published a draft New Towns Planning policy statement to go out to consultation. We will publish a final new Towns Planning policy statement alongside the final programme that will relate to the NPF. The NPF remains a material consideration in planning decisions, but we have a bespoke planning policy setting out all of the parameters that need to apply to how new towns are delivered.

Placemaking principles, and I'm sure we'll speak about some of these issues in more detail. But the two will the two will be in alignment. When do you think that document will be published? So you give me a chance to set out where we've got to in the round. When I last spoke to you, I think it was in July 25th, we had not even published the initial government response. We did that in September. So former Secretary of State was before you after that response, prior to us going out to consultation.

So in March, we went out to consult on the programme as a whole, not on individual sites and the detail delivery about individual sites, but the programme as a whole and an SEA, that's a statutory requirement of the Strategic Environmental Assessment Regulations, as you know, so sought views on that and the programme, the the assessed cumulative impacts of the programme on the environment, practical methods of mitigation and monitoring, how we deliver. We went out, got nearly 3000 responses, some of them incredibly detailed.

The consultation closed on the 19th of May. We are working through all of that feedback with a view to publishing a government response in due course. Publishing those environmental assessments at least before the end of the year. And then at that point, we'll have final locations to announce this year. This year? Yeah. This year. Okay. Baroness Andrews, thank you, Minister.
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Lord Gascoigne Portrait Lord Gascoigne
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I think it's quite difficult to compare the two slightly sort of apples and pears situation in the sense of the National Planning Policy framework is, is obviously a document to guide plan making and decision making across the country. The government has been clear about the fact that we want to see more development around train stations and well connected train stations outside of urban settlements. These are some of the most sustainable locations to to bring forward development on.

That's slightly separate from the new towns programme in my mind, in the sense that the task force has identified. It identified a series of sites which meet all of our objectives and the criteria, one of which is to be sustainable is to be well connected. I'll give you an example of one of the three priority sites Tempsford on the East Coast main line and intersection with East Coast Rail. By its very nature, that new town, if we take it forward, will build out on the intersection of two railway lines and a highly sustainable location.

So the NPF would be a material consideration in those decisions. In terms of the minimum densities the new NPF is asking for, but we will overlay and ensure that aligned with that is a bespoke new towns planning policy statement that will really get into some of the detail about, you know, how do we deliver on the placemaking principles that the task force recommended and all the right so bespoke to the programme itself. But as I I've said, the two will be complementary.
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Lord Gascoigne Portrait Lord Gascoigne
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Two things? I'd say, listen, might want to come in. One is just to emphasize again that despite the change in Prime Minister, the government remains absolutely committed to the programme and to delivering our manifesto commitments in respect to the programme and those commitments we have already given, one of which is that we will have spades in the ground on at least three. I emphasize at least because there is a good chance it's more, but at least three in this Parliament.

It's really important. I think when you're looking at the programme, we've got a bit more clarity now from when I last came before you, in the sense of we got seven sites that we can talk specifically about. Some of those sites have development already underway on them. They're sites that we're adding to, you know, and we're going to furnish with the new towns approach on top of what's already taking place. Thamesmead, which is in my own bar, not in my constituency, but there's development down there on that site.

It can it can do far more, particularly with the DLR transport intervention that was confirmed at the last budget. So there's work underway on some of these sites. When we confirm final locations, we will then set out, and I think this is a really important point because it was put to me by the Commons select Committee that we've only got this one point of consultation. There will be other chances to input. So at the point we confirm final locations, those final locations are then got to go out and get much more granular about what they're going to deliver, as we have done on in Greater Cambridge, where we've now established a centrally led urban development corporation.

What's the red line? What's the proposed delivery vehicle? What's the approach to plan making? And there'll be other chances to input, including by, obviously, the local communities and a series of events and direct engagement that will undertake as part of those. So at least three progressing as many as we can, going as fast as we can after we've confirmed final locations. But it is worth saying that some have already got development activity on them, and that speaks, I think, to a question I'm sure you asked me, but what is the delivery vehicles, delivery vehicles and the approach to each of these sites is going to be very, very site specific.

They're all at different states of maturity. They're all different propositions. They will inevitably need to be taken forward with different delivery vehicles. Again, once we've confirmed, final locations for each of the final sites will be much clearer about our proposed approach to how we want to take them forward.
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Lord Gascoigne Portrait Lord Gascoigne
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there's a lot there's a lot in there. So let me let me unpack. I think I'd say because your inquiries obviously about the new towns programme, let me just link it to that directly. There is no specific skills and workforce challenge in respect of the new towns programme. There's a general challenge across the country. There are opportunities that come with the new towns programme in terms of employment, but also in terms of innovative methods of house building.

We might come on to MMC, but one of the reasons that I think MMC has failed to take off, at least in respect of kind of category one MMC, is that there hasn't been that certainty of pipeline, and the new towns programme can give you that certainty, but there is no doubt that there is quite serious pressures on the workforce construction workforce. And we've said from the moment we were elected, we've got to do more to expand and upskill that workforce and diversify it.

I think MMC, again , gives you a chance to do that. As to the reasons why the industry doesn't attract more young people, I think that is a good question because some of these jobs are extremely well paid. Now. We could we could, I'm sure, deliberate at length on what the reasons might be. I think there's a, you know, an image problem to a certain extent about what working on a development site entails and all the rest of it.

But the important thing is that we have acted to try and address those workforce constraints. £625 million investment in a construction skills package that includes 100 million for skills bootcamps, 98 million for industry placements, 100 million to establish, ten construction technical excellence colleges and £90 million uplift for 16 to 19 courses and 75 million for adult retraining. And the private sector is doing a huge amount as well through the Construction Leadership Council, which the construction minister sits on and co-chairs.

So private sector are alive to the issue as well. But we recognise that we have acted in terms of the new towns programme. As I say, some of these sites will take many, many decades to build out. We can use the programme to align with our general push on getting skills and capacity into the industry in a way that's really beneficial. But on the central point, yes, there are pressures. Those pressures are partly how we recruiting young people.

There are also other issues, and I see this in my own constituency where there's lots of previously developed land that's ripe there for building. We relied very heavily until we exited the European Union. On EU Labour, that does not come over in the same volumes that it did despite, you know, visa adjustments and all the rest of it. We haven't, in some senses filled that drop off. We have got to do more.

And it's right that we do more to get young people in our own workforce, particularly NEETs, into this industry. And as I say, as you said, it's a it can be a very lucrative job and a very rewarding career. And last point I'll make is not just on construction, but the whole built environment and everything that comes with it all the, the planning side of the new towns where people can get very highly, highly skilled, well-paid jobs.
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Lord Porter of Spalding Portrait Lord Porter of Spalding
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It's weird how us as parents and grandparents force our kids to put a suit on to earn 40,000 a year and think they come home better citizens, and I'm guilty as sin of doing that. I push my kids to uni and my grandkids to uni when secretly I'm saying learn a skill as well , because AI is going to put anybody in a suit, almost certainly at job risk, and it's never going to threaten anybody with a bucket at all.

So somehow we need to get more social acceptance of the good skilled people and that kind of responsible ness. So has anybody thought from a government perspective about kind of government information films with a bit of light heartedness, getting decent people with a bit of attitude to show how good it is to do construction for a living. And our entertainment is. And admittedly, the winters are a bit rubbish, but the summers you can't get a better job than being out on a building site earning quite a few quid with the sun on your back.

It is a good place for young people to be, and on Poland and Eastern Europeans forget it. We will be sending bricklayers to Poland and we'll certainly be sending them to Ukraine, because the money they'll earn in Europe will be far better than what we're getting over here now. We're going to end up with a reversal of those roles. Poland is a tiger. It's racing away at the moment. You're never going to get a Polish bricklayer coming to England.

They're always going to be over there. And of course, the Polish people were quite happy to have the Polish people, where the English weren't always so happy to have them in some places with some people. Unfortunately.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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In different locations will want to engage in different ways. And as we've already referenced, these are sort of multi decade sort of initiatives. So the types of engagement that you do in terms of with very young people, in terms of older people, in terms of the facilities and the amenities that they want, that is sort of going to happen, I would imagine , over time, depending on as you face different elements of build out, depending on where you are in the first instance, some of it, some of the work is going to be all underground and not necessarily the most inspiring stuff for people to be interacting with.

But as you go forward and start thinking about, well, what are the different sort of, yes, amenities, hubs, other things that are going to bring people together and how are people going to move around? And, you know, what is the impact of AI in terms of how this is going to be shaped? And yeah, I mean, you know, you already see how active travel is changing, how people live in spaces. But I think the important thing is, and we've sort of reflected on this a lot in terms of learning the history of the previous new towns is that you can't plan now for what the future is going to look like.

You have to give yourself that flexibility because none of us have that sort of perfect foresight, but the people who are interacting in the space are going to keep interacting with it, and they're going to want to shape it. They're going to see the things that need to evolve with it. And we need to ensure that in how we're, I guess, getting these things up and running, that we're not restricting that so that people can engage in different ways and give their feedback.
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Lord Gascoigne Portrait Lord Gascoigne
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I think all that government can do is to give certainty over policy and the direction of travel, and we will do that on new towns when we come to issue the government response. The final planning policy statement, the final locations, we've provided certainty in a range of other areas , and all the feedback I get from the sector is that they very much welcome that. So a finalised national Planning policy framework, a ten year rent settlement, a ten year social and affordable homes grant program.

All of these things give the sector lots of certainty going forward. I think then that interacts with the fact that there's there's no two ways about it. Housebuilders are going through a really, really tough time at the moment. Partly due to things that are completely outside the government's control. A good example is construction build costs. You know, they had gone up by around 40% since 2020 across the market. The current conflict in the Middle East is, is, is adding pressure to those costs.

These are the sorts of things house builders are struggling with in terms of where they can get their supplies. When it comes to, I suppose, what can the government do to help those help with those supply chains? The first really important thing is to say , I've referenced it already. We have a construction leadership council co-chaired by industry and the construction Minister, that works to support the construction industry, to work collaboratively with their supply chains to look at the potential for market volatility, forecasting, communicating their requirements early with suppliers, distributors, builders, merchants so that they're looking as the sector with the government voice on their pricing, production, planning, delivery.

There's no silver bullet when it comes to those cost pressures that I've talked about. Government has done lots on the circular economy. We're streamlining product regulations. We're looking at what more we can do in terms of domestic manufacturing. You've seen the intervention we've made on steel. MMC is another asset to that. So there are various ways that we're looking to try and alleviate the pressures. But those pressures are there and they're somewhat outside the government's control to the extent that they're global pressures.

Yeah, yeah. Well
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Lord Gascoigne Portrait Lord Gascoigne
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I think on that one, I'm not sure you've put me on the spot. In a sense. I'm not sure we need to make it exciting. I think we absolutely need to make it beneficial in terms of people's wallets. So more energy efficient homes, homes that are cheaper to deliver. I do think that's where modern methods of construction have the potential to accelerate delivery, improve productivity, those workforce benefits, I've said, but I think they can have benefits for the home.

Buyer bills are a great example. We're seeing real innovation across the country with, in some cases, zero bill homes. So I think people will be led in some in some ways by their their wallet. But people are interested in innovation in terms of what the government's doing. We've already taken a number of steps to support the rollout of MMC, which it's worth saying, hasn't completely faltered in some cases, particularly Cat one.

We did see lots of big sites get mothballed. Category two MMC is doing quite well, timber frame is doing quite well, but in terms of what support government can give, we have published Paz 8700 brings clarity to the insurance and warranties market. For example, we've got a joint venture with Vistry Group to deliver more homes with MMC. We're working with over 20 local authorities to develop a pattern book of standard house designs, which we think could be really rolled out.

Lots of the local authorities that are participating are really enthusiastic about the value that can add. So there is lots that we're doing in that space to encourage innovation and lots of benefits for the consumer. Certainly with the examples I've seen across the country.
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Baroness Griffin of Princethorpe Portrait Baroness Griffin of Princethorpe
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Well, thank you all for being here very much. I'm finding this very encouraging and sorry, Minister, but some of our questions will now converge slightly, which I think is healthy. Actually delighted to hear you talk about energy efficiency, because the cheapest fuel is obviously the fuel that you don't use at all. So the opportunities within this to combat energy poverty, you talked about pricing and also to combine energy efficiency with fire safety in terms of not just installation and materials used, but inspection, which is crucial.

So you'll know, Minister, from your background, that in European legislation, we married energy efficiency legislation with fire safety after Grenville, and quite a lot of work is being done on this issue. But that's slightly aside, obviously, to come back to Daniel, wouldn't it be great if we actually decoupled gas and electricity prices? But as we say, that's not really the remit of this committee, but there we go. But obviously, demands for energy and water in this country are rising not only in terms of new towns, but also what's happening with data centres, etc..

So it's two things really. It's how all of this works towards net zero, but also national resilience. And also how, as you say, listen, this is a long term project, how we learn what it is that we're not doing well and how to mitigate that on an ongoing basis. And I think we've seen quite a lot of examples of that, sadly, at this summer. So utilities, how are they involved right from the beginning as part of infrastructure as opposed to being an add on? And certainly as a a local councillor in the North West, it used to drive me to distraction.

When you saw the same street over a period of three years dug up separately, because the utilities actually didn't have that way of working together. So energy and water, how can we preserve net zero, be resilient? It's the whole picture, really. Thank you.
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Lord Gascoigne Portrait Lord Gascoigne
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They will be brought in quite early because I think that was, I think, from memory. That was a concern that we heard that they weren't being brought in. There will definitely be brought back in. I think that goes to the point of what the SEA is. The SEA is an assessment of the whole programme. Broad locations for growth. Again, to get hypothetical because we haven't confirmed locations at the point you say location X is confirmed and is in the programme, we will get much more granular about the exact red line, the exact proposed delivery, how everything's going to work.

That's where I suppose I'm sort of tempted in my mind to bring it back to the real world. Examples we have. Greater Cambridge is a great example, where we went out to consult on a defined red line, a definitive delivery vehicle, where we've now established that it's a that's a sort of not exactly the same, but a very good illustration of how each of the finally confirmed sites will be taken forward. You know, much more specific assessment assessments relating to those sites.

At the moment we're in the assessing the programme as a whole, but it does get to in those broad locations for growth identified the taskforce and we've taken forward. What are the pressures, what are the potential mitigations that need to be brought forward? And there's a separate thing it's worth me saying. For the committee's clarity, we've also alongside the SEA been progressing a habitats regulations assessment for the programme. So that's an assessment. It's a requirement of the Habitats Directive.

Similarly to examine the effects of the programme on national network sites and to identify mitigation measures to avoid or lessen the effects on those sites. Again, that will be we intend to publish that alongside all that final suite of documents. We've been taken forward. Okay. Thank you, Baroness Andrews. Oh.
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Lord Gascoigne Portrait Lord Gascoigne
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Again, I'm going to bring it back to a real world example. Let's say that hypothetical site X that is confirmed is taken forward through a development corporation, whether it be a mayor or or centrally led development corporation, there is a clear accountability for a centrally led development corporation, such as in the case of Greater Cambridge, with the Secretary of State and with the board, where we've been at pains, and the same principle would apply to the new towns programme.

Any sites that are taken forward to have local representation on those boards, but those those boards ultimately accountable to the Secretary of State in that instance is responsible for plan making. Eventually, we want to get the local plan in place, but eventually plan making powers, decision making powers over certain thresholds, bringing a spatial plan forward. And it would be looking, you know, in accordance with the Nppf and the planning policy statement, the final one that we've published to be making decisions about what goes where.

I think there's a bigger question outside of the new towns programme, which is we have been at pains as a government after the coalition, in my view, took us to a sort of hyper localist position where all decisions are very local to put in a real hierarchy of plan making, and we've reintroduced spatial development strategies, subregional plans aligned with devolution geographies, and they really should be in due course, the high level frameworks for housing growth, for infrastructure provision.

And so once you have an SDS in place, in my mind, a good SDS would be looking at how much data centre capacity do we require in this region? Where are the appropriate locations that it might be sited and you get a much more planned? I suppose I come back to a fundamental point which we have not had. At the point we came into government, we inherited a planning system that is predicated on local plans being in place, but less than a third up to date coverage.

We can't have a plan led system unless we've got far higher coverage and we're boosting that coverage. But I think SDS is local plans. But new towns with the red line that they draw will be assembling land and master planning for the specific.
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Lord Gascoigne Portrait Lord Gascoigne
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That's a really good question on that point. Again, I've got a memory of answering it before, either to this committee or to the committee in the other place, but in opposition, we did quite a lot of thinking about this. I did at least, and others did about is it in our interest to essentially go into a process where we look to bring forward a national spatial plan? I think doing so would have been quite a slow and cumbersome process.

You know, various ideas were put to our position, a royal commission, whatever it might be. We've taken a slightly more pragmatic approach, which is across government, there are a number of strategies or plans that are spatial in nature that are being taken forward. The industrial strategy, the land use framework, the New Towns programme. And I think what government has tried to do and needs to continue to do to ensure that everything works and is in alignment, is to knit all of those strategies together to ensure they're complementary.

But rather than pause everything and say, we're going to take three, four, five years to do a big national spatial plan, we'll get into the same point, which is, you know, when a new town is created, it needs economic purpose. Is the industrial strategy factored in? Well, our explicit remit and the terms of reference to the task force was to look at all of these strategies and to factor them in to their thinking when recommending locations for the sites.

Lord Ravensdale, do you want to come in?
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Lord Gascoigne Portrait Lord Gascoigne
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Yeah. And then there's a, there's a sort of there's a related point, which is in terms of the CA, but also EIA is more generally on site specific projects. The government is committed to replacing these. I mean, these are EU legacy assessments. We're committed to taking forward environmental outcomes reports. We think they're a better way to approach things. That is that is a fairly complex process to take forward. We've made clear we want them in place, though, by the end of 2027 as a replacement environmental assessment regime, much more focused on outcomes and a streamlined process through to take those forward on Nsip we I think we did consider it early on.

We've not taken the decision to take the new towns sites through the Nsip process. I've got. I've had no real feedback from anyone in industry that thinks that there's a benefit to doing that. They'll be taken forward through the the normal planning process. But again, Greater Cambridge is a really good example of where we do have to interact with. So the local leaders and local authorities that are in place there, it's a really good example, and I think in many areas, some of the same principles will apply.

There's a plan making process underway there. It's in everyone's interest to ensure that that local plan is put in place only at the point that it's put in place with the development corporation pick up. It's got a remit to intervene in development management terms, but only in strategic sites. Most of the decisions on non-strategic sites, the bread and butter of what's coming through the planning process will stay with the joint Local Planning service in Cambridge.

So again, all of these prospects are very site specific, working with what's there to ensure we get the outcomes we want at the end of the day, which is great homes and great places built as fast as we can build them. Thank you, Lord Bailey.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Yeah. How is that going to be replicated? So I think, again, I may have answered your committee or others, but I think it's really important to recognize that we're in a very, very different world. Yeah. From the post-war, just in terms of what's happened to land and all the other factors around what. The important thing, though, that the approach gets us. particularly through development corporations, which are the task force was very clear and recommended , should be.

The delivery vehicle in most. cases is you get a body that is able to land, assemble, to master plan and to capture more of the development uplift. And you will have seen in the initial response to the task force what the government said about land, what's in the draft, new towns planning policy statement, and what we hope to take forward an approach to land that. safeguards it, that ensures that over time, we can capture more of the land value uplift in a way that you wouldn't on a conventional site.

And I think that's where we can show, again, what can be done in terms of large scale settlements across the board, where you, I think will be delivered through this program, will act as a as a guide to taking that forward on large sites that are happening all over the country. I think it must be said, because, you know what's a good example? Mayor Steve Rotheram in Liverpool is out to consult on a development corporation and Mayoral Development corporation for Liverpool North Docks.

It's not. I do want to make this point because it's not as if you can't take forward a large scale new settlement outside the.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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follow. About
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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designed, great.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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A young guy who's an.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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elbow,
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