Foreign Affairs Committee
Tuesday 13th October 2026
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10:14
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Good morning. Or Guten Morgen. To our guests today, the UK Foreign Affairs Committee is holding our first joint session with our sister committee from the German Bundesbank. We. Bundestag, we have visited you and invited you over and we're so pleased that you accepted the invitation and and came back for this for this joint session. And we have this joint session against the background of the Kensington Treaty, which sets out cooperation between the UK and Germany, and it was formally ratified last week when the Prime Minister visited, visited the German Chancellor, and both our committees will hold our governments to account when it comes to delivering on that treaty.
But it's also important, I think, for parliamentarians to come together to discuss our priorities and to understand where we have concerns or where we can point out best practice in order to ensure that our relationship is as good as it can be. We all have a role to play that I think we want to have a closer relationship with our European partners, and Germany is, and always has been a key ally in so many areas. So we want to talk about many of those today.
And before we start, I'd like to hand over to my opposite number, Armin Laschet, chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee in the Bundestag.
But it's also important, I think, for parliamentarians to come together to discuss our priorities and to understand where we have concerns or where we can point out best practice in order to ensure that our relationship is as good as it can be. We all have a role to play that I think we want to have a closer relationship with our European partners, and Germany is, and always has been a key ally in so many areas. So we want to talk about many of those today.
And before we start, I'd like to hand over to my opposite number, Armin Laschet, chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee in the Bundestag.
10:15
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Thank you very much again for the invitation. I think it's an important time to exchange views, even on the parliamentarian level, because parliaments have different political parties, different political positions. Government always acts officially for the state. But the debate across the party lines, I think this is something which our committees practice, practice every week. And therefore it's good not only to discuss in your own country, but as well with important partners.
And this is what the idea was of the Kensington Treaty, not only bring governments together in different fields, but as well have a parliamentarian dimension. And therefore, we are happy to discuss with you about Ukraine, about the economy, about competitiveness between European Union and Great Britain and the future of our relations. So thank you very much for the entire. If we
And this is what the idea was of the Kensington Treaty, not only bring governments together in different fields, but as well have a parliamentarian dimension. And therefore, we are happy to discuss with you about Ukraine, about the economy, about competitiveness between European Union and Great Britain and the future of our relations. So thank you very much for the entire. If we
10:16
10:16
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Thank you very much. And thank you for me as well. For for you coming here to the UK Parliament meeting with us as a committee. I do find this a very historic occasion that we are doing this the week after our leaders met to talk about the Kensington Treaty. So I'm very much looking forward to how we will work together as Parliament, as the chair has said, to scrutinise our governments delivering on this treaty.
There are many different aspects to the treaty and both were agreed by our parliaments, by by yourselves and the Bundestag. You voted on it to agree it and we had ours laid and presented to Parliament on the 7th of January. So it's been a long time in creating this and talking together. And there are many different aspects, from defence and security to economic growth, resilient societies, climate and agriculture, and further cooperation. And I would just like to ask you, as committee members, which aspects of the treaty you in particular think are important to highlight? For me, for example, I'm very interested to see the visa free school trips being delivered so that our young people, my young people in in Putney, where I am the MP and young people from Germany, we can visit each other's countries from a young age and learn about each other, as well as the very big issues of defence, security, migration, environment.
I am very much looking forward to seeing that. So which aspects of it, as committee members, are you particularly finding important that you want to see the action on?
There are many different aspects to the treaty and both were agreed by our parliaments, by by yourselves and the Bundestag. You voted on it to agree it and we had ours laid and presented to Parliament on the 7th of January. So it's been a long time in creating this and talking together. And there are many different aspects, from defence and security to economic growth, resilient societies, climate and agriculture, and further cooperation. And I would just like to ask you, as committee members, which aspects of the treaty you in particular think are important to highlight? For me, for example, I'm very interested to see the visa free school trips being delivered so that our young people, my young people in in Putney, where I am the MP and young people from Germany, we can visit each other's countries from a young age and learn about each other, as well as the very big issues of defence, security, migration, environment.
I am very much looking forward to seeing that. So which aspects of it, as committee members, are you particularly finding important that you want to see the action on?
10:18
10:18
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
I can say, because we had that conversation yesterday in a meeting, because this is really an important aspect. I was here as a young person school because in my school where I grew up, it's every every last year when you finish school, when you're in the last grade, you always come to London. It's it has. So I don't know if it's still like that after Brexit, but when I grew up, it was like that.
And this is so important because these memories and the. It's a special relationship because if you are in a country new young years, you have certain associations. I think this is for relationship between two countries. This is so important because these memories go, go on. And for me, like, to be honest, being here and in a different setting now, it's kind of also sad because I feel like Britain is not so close .
Close. That is used to be so. And I think it all has to do with these memories you have as young children, and this is something we're losing. So I'm totally on what you said and this is really what we need beside of all these economic and all this stuff. But we need people to get closer and this is a good way to achieve that.
And this is so important because these memories and the. It's a special relationship because if you are in a country new young years, you have certain associations. I think this is for relationship between two countries. This is so important because these memories go, go on. And for me, like, to be honest, being here and in a different setting now, it's kind of also sad because I feel like Britain is not so close .
Close. That is used to be so. And I think it all has to do with these memories you have as young children, and this is something we're losing. So I'm totally on what you said and this is really what we need beside of all these economic and all this stuff. But we need people to get closer and this is a good way to achieve that.
10:19
10:19
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Thank you very much. Jürgen Hart from the CDU party foreign affairs spokesperson. When we had the debate in the Deutsche Bundestag after the Brexit decision, where we regret the decision but also accept accept the decision of UK. Some of us mentioned the next we need is a friendship treaty between UK and Germany. Unfortunately, this treaty now is that what we want to have with a strong pillar for government cooperation, but also strong pillar for parliamentarian cooperation, and also a few on the civil society.
And concerning youth exchange. I think I remember debates in the last years about the problems school classes from Germany had to travel to UK because of that obligation to have a passport and every teacher it. Maybe it was not a unsolvable hurdle, but a teacher who has 25 students. He says, oh, at the end, in the morning when you start to travel, I'm sure one will not have a passport. And therefore they.
They decided not to go to London but to go to Vienna, for example. Example. And now I have learned that we have a new procedure on that. But we have a list concept where a list of students are put on a list, and then the list as a whole is, is enough to to travel to UK. This is what I have learned, but I will go behind and talk to people that are doing that in practice.
Does it work in a way or not? But this is something of a the small practical problems we had with with with Brexit and that we have to overcome to make make for our people, make it as it was before, so to say.
And concerning youth exchange. I think I remember debates in the last years about the problems school classes from Germany had to travel to UK because of that obligation to have a passport and every teacher it. Maybe it was not a unsolvable hurdle, but a teacher who has 25 students. He says, oh, at the end, in the morning when you start to travel, I'm sure one will not have a passport. And therefore they.
They decided not to go to London but to go to Vienna, for example. Example. And now I have learned that we have a new procedure on that. But we have a list concept where a list of students are put on a list, and then the list as a whole is, is enough to to travel to UK. This is what I have learned, but I will go behind and talk to people that are doing that in practice.
Does it work in a way or not? But this is something of a the small practical problems we had with with with Brexit and that we have to overcome to make make for our people, make it as it was before, so to say.
10:21
10:21
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Dear colleagues, firstly, I want to underline that I think the best, the best way to, to enhance the the relationship between two countries is to bring the youth of the two countries together. So I think we should elaborate very much on extending and on intensifying the youth exchange between UK and Germany. And certainly now it's a tremendous advantage that these. It's not necessary anymore to have a passport of every children, of every pupil who wants to travel to to UK , because now you can make this this summary list.
On the other hand, I would recommend us to go even further because I'm deeply convinced that we have quite experienced programs, for instance, with the US, an exchange program with the US Congress, and I think it would be worth to think about establishing a small program between UK and Germany , comparable to this parliamentarian partnership program with the US Congress. So this is one idea and another idea I would I would to to like to advocate for is to to establish a British German youth work.
We established the first 1 in 1963 with France. Certainly it's the biggest one with France, but we have other ones as well with Poland, with Hungary, for instance, also with Greece. And so I think that's my second idea. And I'm very ambitious to to advocate for this, I would like to to establish a small I would I would suggest to, to start with a small program to, to establish a British German youth work comparable to the France, to the French one, to the to the Greek one.
And so these are two these are two ideas. These are two ideas to. To intensify the youth exchange between our two countries, because I'm deeply convinced this is by far the most important pillar of. Creating an understanding of the other people of the other country. So that's that's these are two ideas of mine.
On the other hand, I would recommend us to go even further because I'm deeply convinced that we have quite experienced programs, for instance, with the US, an exchange program with the US Congress, and I think it would be worth to think about establishing a small program between UK and Germany , comparable to this parliamentarian partnership program with the US Congress. So this is one idea and another idea I would I would to to like to advocate for is to to establish a British German youth work.
We established the first 1 in 1963 with France. Certainly it's the biggest one with France, but we have other ones as well with Poland, with Hungary, for instance, also with Greece. And so I think that's my second idea. And I'm very ambitious to to advocate for this, I would like to to establish a small I would I would suggest to, to start with a small program to, to establish a British German youth work comparable to the France, to the French one, to the to the Greek one.
And so these are two these are two ideas. These are two ideas to. To intensify the youth exchange between our two countries, because I'm deeply convinced this is by far the most important pillar of. Creating an understanding of the other people of the other country. So that's that's these are two ideas of mine.
10:24
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
A great challenges to us. And I hope someone listening to this as well will hear this idea and take up that challenge to set up that kind of the treaty is established. But now what we do with it is, is, is over to us to, to come up with ideas. And Mr. Cooter, you didn't your party didn't vote for this. Could you elaborate on the reasons why and what you will be looking for, for from the treaty now that it is established?
10:24
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Well, there are some aspects in the treaty we don't agree with. In general, we support sorry, we support a very strong cooperation between our countries, Great Britain and Germany, youth exchanges, very important. And I would once more congratulate you to step out of European Union. We want we our biggest opposition party in Germany, and we want to reform the European Union. You were lucky that you made it out of European Union.
And I'm quite interested how the situation in your country is regarding perhaps rejoining European Union at. A very interesting talk yesterday with a taxi driver on the way to London from the airport, and we had a quite converse discussion about European Union, what we expect, what it brings to the people, he said. I'm very happy that we made it out of European Union. But he said there are new movements now under the new prime Minister, perhaps to rejoin or to get closer in cooperation.
It's for you, an internal aspect. For us, it's foreign affairs. So perhaps you can give us some information about the situation here in Great Britain regarding this right now.
And I'm quite interested how the situation in your country is regarding perhaps rejoining European Union at. A very interesting talk yesterday with a taxi driver on the way to London from the airport, and we had a quite converse discussion about European Union, what we expect, what it brings to the people, he said. I'm very happy that we made it out of European Union. But he said there are new movements now under the new prime Minister, perhaps to rejoin or to get closer in cooperation.
It's for you, an internal aspect. For us, it's foreign affairs. So perhaps you can give us some information about the situation here in Great Britain regarding this right now.
10:25
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So I think you perfectly give an example of how we can differ in our views and that this cross-party work is important. But I think the the Prime Minister gave a statement yesterday on international work that he's doing and greater cooperation with the European Union. And this treaty being an example of that was was something that he's talked about. And I think there is a very live discussion in this country now about the effects and the of the of Brexit on, on people in our constituencies who are bearing that cost of living difference and that we want to see everything done and an open conversation about how we can thrive, how our country can thrive, but how Germany can thrive.
And we can do that together. Last question from me, if I may, chair. Thank you.
And we can do that together. Last question from me, if I may, chair. Thank you.
10:26
10:26
10:26
10:27
10:27
10:27
10:27
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So final question would just be about now how we will scrutinise this and how will you, as the Foreign Affairs Committee be now scrutinising the the treaty? It's got 17 lighthouse projects. It's quite ambitious. And so how will you be looking at. And we will be thinking about how we can scrutinise it as well.
10:27
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes, I think we. So the treaty is very young, I think it. And the Committee has meetings every two weeks for hours, and every political group has the possibility to bring issues on the agenda. But you can imagine that at the moment we are not speaking about the friendly perspective as our friends and partners, but we discuss only crisis every week. Iran, Middle East, Gaza, Peninsula, Greenland, you name it, Ukraine, Russia, every session.
And then sometimes the forgotten conflicts like Ethiopia, Sudan, Africa. So we didn't discuss the treaty after the signing in the in the committee, but I think we will check it once, probably one year after the the the signing to see where do we stand and where do we have to work on. And then of course, the other committees, there's cooperation of economic of news of different things. They discuss it as well.
It's not only the Foreign Affairs Committee. So we have a broad discussion in the different committees about the issues of the treaty. And we have, for instance, to compare it. We don't discuss today about the Élysée Treaty with France because it's 1963. But the new treaty was the. Aix la Chapelle Treaty of Aachen 2019. And there we have a German French assembly, which every meeting look.
How do we stand? What is implemented, what is not implemented? So they are working very close to the treaty. And this is probably what we should do with with the Kensington Treaty as well. Follow the discussions. . And
And then sometimes the forgotten conflicts like Ethiopia, Sudan, Africa. So we didn't discuss the treaty after the signing in the in the committee, but I think we will check it once, probably one year after the the the signing to see where do we stand and where do we have to work on. And then of course, the other committees, there's cooperation of economic of news of different things. They discuss it as well.
It's not only the Foreign Affairs Committee. So we have a broad discussion in the different committees about the issues of the treaty. And we have, for instance, to compare it. We don't discuss today about the Élysée Treaty with France because it's 1963. But the new treaty was the. Aix la Chapelle Treaty of Aachen 2019. And there we have a German French assembly, which every meeting look.
How do we stand? What is implemented, what is not implemented? So they are working very close to the treaty. And this is probably what we should do with with the Kensington Treaty as well. Follow the discussions. . And
10:30
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
probably we could do that together so that probably before we meet next time, every member of your Foreign Affairs committee and our Foreign Affairs Committee could could put topics on the agenda where he asks, what is the stand of, for example, use exchange, for example, military cooperation and so on. And then we can can concentrate on on issues of the treaty in one of our next meetings. Just a proposal for me not yet communicated to my colleagues.
10:30
10:30
Edward Morello
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Edward Morello
Thank you, chair. Yes, Mr. Chairman, some of your members have already mentioned the dreaded Brexit word. The Prime Minister was meeting with your Chancellor last Wednesday. At the time, he said he wants to bring the UK closer to Europe. Yesterday, the Prime Minister made an announcement in Parliament about the upcoming UK EU summit on the 20th of November, outlining the government's ambition for the areas of cooperation or agreement that the treaties that might be agreed.
We've had a very public statement last week from the French finance Minister about a desire for the UK to be back in the EU. The Kensington Treaty is a wonderful example of bilateral cooperation and a number of areas. I wonder what the view is in Germany, and if your members can give us the view on Germany, on on the UK's opportunity with the EU for closer relations, whether or not full membership again is a potential option, or if there are other areas where , at a supranational level, the EU and the UK should be cooperating more.
We've had a very public statement last week from the French finance Minister about a desire for the UK to be back in the EU. The Kensington Treaty is a wonderful example of bilateral cooperation and a number of areas. I wonder what the view is in Germany, and if your members can give us the view on Germany, on on the UK's opportunity with the EU for closer relations, whether or not full membership again is a potential option, or if there are other areas where , at a supranational level, the EU and the UK should be cooperating more.
10:31
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And can I also say that we are not avoiding answering the question that Stefan has asked us, and I think we ought to. I mean, around this table there will be different views and, you know, perfectly happy to to exchange what, what what we believe our constituents think. And they will all be slightly different. But we would also be very interested to hear what the German point of view is.
10:32
10:32
10:32
10:32
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Have a different position. He is against supporting Ukraine any longer. His party, the left is against weapon delivering to Ukraine. So you have different political positions. If I see the situation we are in, we need practical answers. And of course, since the Brexit, Germany and Europe never worked so close with United Kingdom, even in the Brexit in the time before Brexit, because the the security cooperation is so, so close because we have to react to an aggressor.
And before 2016 we didn't have this situation. So we have to develop the possibility to work with the E3 format or with other formats close with our non EU European members like Norway, like Turkey and like United Kingdom. But United Kingdom is of course the importance one. It's number one. Number two, economically, if we argue you are out, so you are out. You are certain state like China and Zimbabwe.
Okay, you can argue like this, but this is a problem because we have a close cooperation between our industries. We have BMW or others who produce in the United Kingdom. And if you say you are a third country, you are out. We have nothing to do with you. We say Buy Europe, buy only European products. Then it would be damage ourselves and damage Great Britain and therefore we need in.
Before the European Council summit meets answers that Great Britain is something else than Zimbabwe and China, that we want Great Britain very close in economic cooperation to the single market. So. And now you can name it with three, four, five, six other issues. And then at the end, you decide whether you want to join European Union again or not. But if you are out, we need ways to cooperate with the important European state who is at the moment not in the Union Army.
And before 2016 we didn't have this situation. So we have to develop the possibility to work with the E3 format or with other formats close with our non EU European members like Norway, like Turkey and like United Kingdom. But United Kingdom is of course the importance one. It's number one. Number two, economically, if we argue you are out, so you are out. You are certain state like China and Zimbabwe.
Okay, you can argue like this, but this is a problem because we have a close cooperation between our industries. We have BMW or others who produce in the United Kingdom. And if you say you are a third country, you are out. We have nothing to do with you. We say Buy Europe, buy only European products. Then it would be damage ourselves and damage Great Britain and therefore we need in.
Before the European Council summit meets answers that Great Britain is something else than Zimbabwe and China, that we want Great Britain very close in economic cooperation to the single market. So. And now you can name it with three, four, five, six other issues. And then at the end, you decide whether you want to join European Union again or not. But if you are out, we need ways to cooperate with the important European state who is at the moment not in the Union Army.
10:34
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
First of all, Your Excellency, thank you for being here, for having us. We had also discussed yesterday an evening. Thank you, the ambassador, for the invitation. Also, I want to be really clear. Sometimes in life you need a break to know why it's better to be in unit, why it's better to be together, when to be divorced. I'm really sure about it. This break is maybe not a it's. It's not the worst thing after ten years.
Now you have to ask yourself. And we as Germany and Europe, European Union have to ask ourselves, is the life better after the Brexit or not? And I would say from the perspective, from the foreign affairs perspective and the perspective is not the last century. It started with the An Action of Krim 2014, when you decided to go out from the European Union 2022, and we had the full invasion of Russia in the Ukraine, we have the 7th October 2023 after 7th October, after the Hamas terror attack, we had a very, very horrible war in Gaza.
And if we are looking on all this conflicts in Europe, we have a disability, instability, unstable situation also in the Western Balkans, in Bosnia, Kosovo, North Macedonia. If you're looking on all these conflicts on the world, are you possible as Great Britain to solve this problem alone? No, you are not. Are we as Germany? Do we have the power to find solution for all these conflicts? Not we are not.
Is it possible for France, Great Britain and Germany to find solution? Maybe. Yeah, but still we are not at the table. We are not at the table together to find a solution for the Gaza conflict and war. We are not at the table to find a solution and to find a way out of the war in Ukraine. So is this the position and the role that we want to have in this world, in this chaotic world, in this very terrible situation currently? So I think and that's your decision, but I'm really sure about it.
If your country, your government, and I am a full supporter of your government because I'm a Social Democrat officially, and I'm very happy about your new prime minister. He's doing a brilliant job. Job and also your foreign affairs minister. Wonderful speech in Liverpool. If your country and your society will decide about to go back to the European Union to be a full member, I'm sure about it, that my society, the majority in Germany, will love to see it.
And me, as the spokesperson for foreign affairs from the Social Democrats party. I am so full of passion with UK because I want to share my experience. Also, like your 2008 , I. I wouldn't imagine to to to visit. I couldn't imagine to visit UK, especially Leeds, but my school had the exchange program with a grammar school at Leeds this 14 days in Leeds and four days in London. I get a personal UK lover, not only because of David Beckham and his free kicks, but still it was a special moment for me and so we have on so different levels, so much, so much potential that every one of us should ask, is the Brexit the best answer in ten years later? What is better than now? And I think we should work on it to reunion for reunion between Great Britain, UK and the European Union.
My party totally disagree with the political position of Stefan Coulter, but agreed totally with this concrete idea of Stefan Meyer to see how can we work on concretely good ideas for your society, also for our society, that we as foreign affairs politicians can win also some sympathies in the societies because we also want to be re-elected. And I think the young people in your constituency, like my constituency, would support us if we are working on more mobility between the youth.
I'm really sure about it. It's not a decision of do we lose trust? I think we will win new trust, so full support for it.
Now you have to ask yourself. And we as Germany and Europe, European Union have to ask ourselves, is the life better after the Brexit or not? And I would say from the perspective, from the foreign affairs perspective and the perspective is not the last century. It started with the An Action of Krim 2014, when you decided to go out from the European Union 2022, and we had the full invasion of Russia in the Ukraine, we have the 7th October 2023 after 7th October, after the Hamas terror attack, we had a very, very horrible war in Gaza.
And if we are looking on all this conflicts in Europe, we have a disability, instability, unstable situation also in the Western Balkans, in Bosnia, Kosovo, North Macedonia. If you're looking on all these conflicts on the world, are you possible as Great Britain to solve this problem alone? No, you are not. Are we as Germany? Do we have the power to find solution for all these conflicts? Not we are not.
Is it possible for France, Great Britain and Germany to find solution? Maybe. Yeah, but still we are not at the table. We are not at the table together to find a solution for the Gaza conflict and war. We are not at the table to find a solution and to find a way out of the war in Ukraine. So is this the position and the role that we want to have in this world, in this chaotic world, in this very terrible situation currently? So I think and that's your decision, but I'm really sure about it.
If your country, your government, and I am a full supporter of your government because I'm a Social Democrat officially, and I'm very happy about your new prime minister. He's doing a brilliant job. Job and also your foreign affairs minister. Wonderful speech in Liverpool. If your country and your society will decide about to go back to the European Union to be a full member, I'm sure about it, that my society, the majority in Germany, will love to see it.
And me, as the spokesperson for foreign affairs from the Social Democrats party. I am so full of passion with UK because I want to share my experience. Also, like your 2008 , I. I wouldn't imagine to to to visit. I couldn't imagine to visit UK, especially Leeds, but my school had the exchange program with a grammar school at Leeds this 14 days in Leeds and four days in London. I get a personal UK lover, not only because of David Beckham and his free kicks, but still it was a special moment for me and so we have on so different levels, so much, so much potential that every one of us should ask, is the Brexit the best answer in ten years later? What is better than now? And I think we should work on it to reunion for reunion between Great Britain, UK and the European Union.
My party totally disagree with the political position of Stefan Coulter, but agreed totally with this concrete idea of Stefan Meyer to see how can we work on concretely good ideas for your society, also for our society, that we as foreign affairs politicians can win also some sympathies in the societies because we also want to be re-elected. And I think the young people in your constituency, like my constituency, would support us if we are working on more mobility between the youth.
I'm really sure about it. It's not a decision of do we lose trust? I think we will win new trust, so full support for it.
10:39
10:39
Dan Carden
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Dan Carden
It's wonderful to have our guests here today. And can I welcome all of you. My name is Dan Cordone. I'm a member of Parliament for Liverpool, a Labour MP. And just to respond to a few points and ask perhaps a fairly general question. The Prime Minister has set out his ambition to secure a relationship with the EU that takes us forwards, and I think he's doing that on the basis of trying to smooth out economic restrictions that still exist, to try and make sure that we are doing as much as possible to encourage growth in the UK economy and for all economies across the EU, but also to do it in a way that is respectful of the results that was given in 2016.
And I think when we think about the relationship, especially in security and defence between the UK and the and the and our European allies, you've said they've never been stronger than they are today, and there are plenty of ways, whether it's the E3 and the Kensington Treaty, to build those bilateral and multilateral relationships between our two countries. And for me, there's a frustration that actually, when we look at agreements like safe, the UK was almost past the line, and then it was kept out of safe by the European Union, by the commission.
And I wonder if the parliamentary dialogue that we have can be in Germany and in other European states can be focused on making sure that the relationship we have right now post-Brexit with the EU meets the challenges of the security issues that we face, and that we are working together as efficiently and effectively as possible until a more until a pragmatic settlement is reached in the future.
And I think when we think about the relationship, especially in security and defence between the UK and the and the and our European allies, you've said they've never been stronger than they are today, and there are plenty of ways, whether it's the E3 and the Kensington Treaty, to build those bilateral and multilateral relationships between our two countries. And for me, there's a frustration that actually, when we look at agreements like safe, the UK was almost past the line, and then it was kept out of safe by the European Union, by the commission.
And I wonder if the parliamentary dialogue that we have can be in Germany and in other European states can be focused on making sure that the relationship we have right now post-Brexit with the EU meets the challenges of the security issues that we face, and that we are working together as efficiently and effectively as possible until a more until a pragmatic settlement is reached in the future.
10:41
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So I think you described it as well. The world has changed since 2016. I was in the European Parliament from 99 to 2005, then the first Brexit debate started. Nigel Farage was a colleague in the parliament and every week he said, this is too much super power for Brussels. We need more decisions in our country, in London, in Westminster. So this was the debate.
But today we have a completely other situation. We have the competition with China. German president, the German chancellor and Macron wrote to the commission let's change the strategy towards China and to fight for fair conditions between this superpower. Every of the 27 member states is too weak to implement this. You need the whole power of the single market to show China. If you do this, we will react like this.
This is one second Russia. Of course, we only can work together and we support Ukraine broader than only the European Union, with our NATO allies in Europe and of course, with Canada and sometimes the United States. So this is again, an answer foreign policy. You somebody mentioned Gaza, Addis mentioned Gaza and Iran. We as Germans are completely out in Iran and the Strait of Hormuz. You are a little bit active with France, but Germany is completely out in Middle East, Israel, Palestine in the 19th, we had the quartet.
We had a European role together with Russia, United Nations, US and Europe. We started to build up the Palestinian Authority, the Barcelona process. There was a lot of movement. Today we are completely out. Nobody asked us. It's a board of peace of Trump and Europe and Great Britain and Europe and EU is out. And the third thing, this is very new.
We have competition with our friends in us, the tariffs against the European Union member states were only to stop because we had the power of 45 million people with a single market. To answer Trump, if you do this with tariff against us, we will answer with special methods. If there were no single market, it's easy for him to punish Spain, to punish this country, to punish this country. But he not.
Now. He knows you can't only react with the European Union as a whole. And then we are stronger than even every nation state. And therefore the theory of Farage was wrong to say, if you give the power to the nation state, the answer is the nation state is weaker and your country is weaker, and your population and the consequences are more bad than as a member of the European Union.
But today we have a completely other situation. We have the competition with China. German president, the German chancellor and Macron wrote to the commission let's change the strategy towards China and to fight for fair conditions between this superpower. Every of the 27 member states is too weak to implement this. You need the whole power of the single market to show China. If you do this, we will react like this.
This is one second Russia. Of course, we only can work together and we support Ukraine broader than only the European Union, with our NATO allies in Europe and of course, with Canada and sometimes the United States. So this is again, an answer foreign policy. You somebody mentioned Gaza, Addis mentioned Gaza and Iran. We as Germans are completely out in Iran and the Strait of Hormuz. You are a little bit active with France, but Germany is completely out in Middle East, Israel, Palestine in the 19th, we had the quartet.
We had a European role together with Russia, United Nations, US and Europe. We started to build up the Palestinian Authority, the Barcelona process. There was a lot of movement. Today we are completely out. Nobody asked us. It's a board of peace of Trump and Europe and Great Britain and Europe and EU is out. And the third thing, this is very new.
We have competition with our friends in us, the tariffs against the European Union member states were only to stop because we had the power of 45 million people with a single market. To answer Trump, if you do this with tariff against us, we will answer with special methods. If there were no single market, it's easy for him to punish Spain, to punish this country, to punish this country. But he not.
Now. He knows you can't only react with the European Union as a whole. And then we are stronger than even every nation state. And therefore the theory of Farage was wrong to say, if you give the power to the nation state, the answer is the nation state is weaker and your country is weaker, and your population and the consequences are more bad than as a member of the European Union.
10:45
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
I think this is the core of the challenge that some think. If you hand over the reality from your national responsibility to other body like European Union, you will lose control. But the contrary is right. If you do it in a good way, you can make a bigger, much bigger leverage on your interest and your sovereignty. And in Trump won after four weeks after its inauguration, I was in white House talking to the deputy chief of staff, and he told me, we don't want to have a trade agreement with that European Union.
We want to have a trade agreement with you, Germany. And my answer was we have not no sovereignty in trade. The trade minister of Germany is the Commissioner of foreign trade of the European Union. And he looked at me like, are you foolish? But I explained that due to the fact that we have all foreign trade issues together in one one box. Yeah. And we have a consensus, by the way, also in the commission and the Council on how to to handle that.
We are much stronger to do that. And this is also the success story of the trade agreement with Canada, which now with India before with Indonesia and others, that we we match our power. This is what what I like I'd like to mention on that point. And the second point is answering your question concerning safe and other. From my point of view, security. Europe is unthinkable with or without UK, not only due to NATO but also due to the capabilities of the British industry to produce high quality, effective and cost cost efficient military goods and the German government and my.
I personally, and I think the majority of the Parliament is also was in favor to integrate. Unfortunately, the negotiations went into the wrong direction. With this an unsuccessful result. We have a new discussion now on the question of how to spend the 90 billion for Ukraine, and I. I hope and promote that UK is allowed to participate in that part. And also probably out of that then of the positive results out of that, we come back to the question, what about safe? For me, it's necessary that not only Canada and other NATO partners, but also UK, is part of our common procurement in military goods.
We want to have a trade agreement with you, Germany. And my answer was we have not no sovereignty in trade. The trade minister of Germany is the Commissioner of foreign trade of the European Union. And he looked at me like, are you foolish? But I explained that due to the fact that we have all foreign trade issues together in one one box. Yeah. And we have a consensus, by the way, also in the commission and the Council on how to to handle that.
We are much stronger to do that. And this is also the success story of the trade agreement with Canada, which now with India before with Indonesia and others, that we we match our power. This is what what I like I'd like to mention on that point. And the second point is answering your question concerning safe and other. From my point of view, security. Europe is unthinkable with or without UK, not only due to NATO but also due to the capabilities of the British industry to produce high quality, effective and cost cost efficient military goods and the German government and my.
I personally, and I think the majority of the Parliament is also was in favor to integrate. Unfortunately, the negotiations went into the wrong direction. With this an unsuccessful result. We have a new discussion now on the question of how to spend the 90 billion for Ukraine, and I. I hope and promote that UK is allowed to participate in that part. And also probably out of that then of the positive results out of that, we come back to the question, what about safe? For me, it's necessary that not only Canada and other NATO partners, but also UK, is part of our common procurement in military goods.
10:47
10:47
Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Thank you so much. Thank you for being here and really welcome this discussion. As you can imagine, there are a range of views around this table about whether the UK should be in the European Union or not. Just like there are a huge range of views across the country. And my concern is that in the UK we have spent many, many years debating and discussing this and we have had a referendum and there has been a democratic vote and result of that referendum.
And whilst I think all of us want to make sure that we have strong collaboration with Germany and other countries in the EU reopening , this debate and discussion, I'm concerned, is potentially going to hold us back from being able to find those areas where we can unite and work collaboratively together. So whilst it is obviously an important thing and I understand why everybody raises it, what I think many people are concerned about is going back into these years of of disagreements that we've had from people with a range of views across the country.
And I would like to focus, if possible, on areas where we are already working collaboratively together, or we feel we could work bilaterally or multilaterally more closely together, and particularly around areas of security. We've talked about the importance of some of the really challenging conflicts that are happening around the world at the moment, and I wanted to touch briefly on Iran and what's happening with the actions of the Iranians and the Houthis and the challenges with energy security, and get your views on what more we could all be doing to try to improve energy security and to work in that area to improve things for all of our constituents in the UK and in Germany.
And whilst I think all of us want to make sure that we have strong collaboration with Germany and other countries in the EU reopening , this debate and discussion, I'm concerned, is potentially going to hold us back from being able to find those areas where we can unite and work collaboratively together. So whilst it is obviously an important thing and I understand why everybody raises it, what I think many people are concerned about is going back into these years of of disagreements that we've had from people with a range of views across the country.
And I would like to focus, if possible, on areas where we are already working collaboratively together, or we feel we could work bilaterally or multilaterally more closely together, and particularly around areas of security. We've talked about the importance of some of the really challenging conflicts that are happening around the world at the moment, and I wanted to touch briefly on Iran and what's happening with the actions of the Iranians and the Houthis and the challenges with energy security, and get your views on what more we could all be doing to try to improve energy security and to work in that area to improve things for all of our constituents in the UK and in Germany.
10:49
10:49
10:50
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Well, it's opposition opinion again, we want to go back to Russian oil and gas because it's cheap, it's reliable and it's enough. And we have big problems with high prices of energy petrol, for example, in Germany. So people really feel the problem and we have to solve it and saying we don't want to buy from Russia. It's from our perspective, perspective, the wrong way. So we would go back to a reliable supply.
So having a look at the negotiations between Russia and the United States, the US are probably by the Nord Stream pipelines. And then we will have Russian gas again, but buy it not from Russia but from the US. So we could actually buy it directly.
So having a look at the negotiations between Russia and the United States, the US are probably by the Nord Stream pipelines. And then we will have Russian gas again, but buy it not from Russia but from the US. So we could actually buy it directly.
10:50
10:50
10:50
10:50
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Well, our opinion you are changing the topics. Now, our opinion is that this is not our war. You know, the war is didn't start with the invasion from Russia to Ukraine, which we don't agree with in total. So this is a problem we have to solve. But having a look at the Ukraine conflict, it started long ago. We had the Minsk negotiations. There were results. And Ukraine didn't stick to this, you know, and the conflict started.
10:51
10:51
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
No, it's not Ukraine's fault. But listen to me. The the conflict started earlier. So the you know, the results of the Minsk negotiations. Yes. So Ukraine didn't help the elections where they want to belong to. They didn't stick to the negotiations they made with Russia. So this pushed Russia into a. Unconvenient situation. So we don't agree with the war at all. But we say the conflict started a little bit earlier.
And it's not just between Ukraine and and Russia, but also a geopolitical topic.
And it's not just between Ukraine and and Russia, but also a geopolitical topic.
10:51
10:52
10:52
10:52
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
Yes. Thank you. So first of all, I apologize. There's also different opposition opinions in this room. I would like to come back to your question of energy security, because I think that there is there is a gap or a lack of a topic, which we are not really discussing when we are discussing defence and security right now. And I do believe it's climate change, and I do believe that we have to tackle that and that we have to work closer together in order to do that, because it is a topic we can only, yeah, react to if we do it very, very closely in partnerships.
And I think that investing and building renewable energies would be the best way also to tackle the issues we do have right now with the crisis in the Strait of Hormuz, with the crisis in with the war in Ukraine, which obviously has been started by Russia. And I think that it's very important to work together on those topics as well. And I mean, really the kind of speech at the Davos Forum kind of stuck with me. And I think it's something we can also keep in mind when working on those topics, like the Kensington Treaty, that if middle powers do unite, not in order to become another superpower, but in order to use the leverage for changing the world to become a better place, tackling climate change, make the United Nations great again.
Please defend international laws on every front. Any difference? I think this should be something which we also keep in mind when discussing also issues of security, because I do believe that security and defence is not only a topic of having more arms and more weapons and be ready to defend. Not arguing against that right now, but saying that there needs to be another layer as well, which we should also tackle together and where we should also work in together.
Yeah.
And I think that investing and building renewable energies would be the best way also to tackle the issues we do have right now with the crisis in the Strait of Hormuz, with the crisis in with the war in Ukraine, which obviously has been started by Russia. And I think that it's very important to work together on those topics as well. And I mean, really the kind of speech at the Davos Forum kind of stuck with me. And I think it's something we can also keep in mind when working on those topics, like the Kensington Treaty, that if middle powers do unite, not in order to become another superpower, but in order to use the leverage for changing the world to become a better place, tackling climate change, make the United Nations great again.
Please defend international laws on every front. Any difference? I think this should be something which we also keep in mind when discussing also issues of security, because I do believe that security and defence is not only a topic of having more arms and more weapons and be ready to defend. Not arguing against that right now, but saying that there needs to be another layer as well, which we should also tackle together and where we should also work in together.
Yeah.
10:54
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I also wanted to, to, to say this, that I mean, I think, I think I speak on behalf of some of the members of this committee, but definitely not all of the members of the committee. When I say that many of us believe that that that Brexit was a mistake and our constituents believe it was a mistake. And whilst it was extremely painful to go through the referendum and all of the arguing and so on, that shouldn't be a reason for us to simply say, well, we have to we have to stay in this mistake when it isn't to the advantage of our country, our small businesses, our young people, our security.
I mean, there are many, you know, I mean, Aphra won't agree with this, you know, and there are other members of the committee who won't agree with this. But I think that what's happened is that with the Prime Minister talking about about needing to make amendments to the agreement that we have to remember was signed by Boris Johnson on Christmas Eve, which, even if you didn't know any of the details, you would know that it was likely that there might be some mistakes in it.
And so and so to repair those is important. But the PM has gone further, I think, and said, you know, we need to think about how much further we want to go and we will be led by the public. So I think there's no avoiding it. We will be discussing this, and we need to work out what the best way forward is. And it may well be. Some people will say, I really don't want to ever discuss Brexit again.
It was too painful. It's too close. We don't even want to do it. We just want to stay with what we have. But there will be others and certainly in my constituency, it will be the vast majority who will say this was a mistake. We want to leave it behind and we want to join the other countries that are very like us, that are in terms of size, attitude, you know, economy, geography, and we want to be we will be safer close to them and we want to be back in the European Union.
But there will be a debate without. We can't avoid it. There will be a debate and how that is resolved. I don't yet know because it's an early. We're in the early stages. What we also as a country need to remember is this is not just about a debate amongst ourselves. We can't just spend all our time debating amongst ourselves and then and then, but not bring in the European Union.
You know, I mean, as we did, you know, with with some of the other aspects, you know, so for example, with, you know, some of our debates in terms of, of, of, of repairing some of the damage of the more obvious damage of Brexit, we have a debate amongst ourselves and then we come and see the European Union and for example, has already been mentioned by Dan on safe. European Union says no. And that has been quite difficult for us because over a period of two years, we've had this debate going on.
We've come and we've yet to have any particular advantages yet in terms of of what we've had back from the European Union. And we hope that this that the that the summit in November will be the beginning of a warming of relationships, but also tangible results that we will be able to show the British people, this is to your advantage. If we become closer to the European Union . Now we've done this, do you feel confident to be able to move forward and to continue to move closer? I don't know, I mean, I just I think it's right to kind of put that contribution as well as I say, and I appreciate it's not representative of everybody, but I think it's representative of a of quite a large number of politicians.
I mean, there are many, you know, I mean, Aphra won't agree with this, you know, and there are other members of the committee who won't agree with this. But I think that what's happened is that with the Prime Minister talking about about needing to make amendments to the agreement that we have to remember was signed by Boris Johnson on Christmas Eve, which, even if you didn't know any of the details, you would know that it was likely that there might be some mistakes in it.
And so and so to repair those is important. But the PM has gone further, I think, and said, you know, we need to think about how much further we want to go and we will be led by the public. So I think there's no avoiding it. We will be discussing this, and we need to work out what the best way forward is. And it may well be. Some people will say, I really don't want to ever discuss Brexit again.
It was too painful. It's too close. We don't even want to do it. We just want to stay with what we have. But there will be others and certainly in my constituency, it will be the vast majority who will say this was a mistake. We want to leave it behind and we want to join the other countries that are very like us, that are in terms of size, attitude, you know, economy, geography, and we want to be we will be safer close to them and we want to be back in the European Union.
But there will be a debate without. We can't avoid it. There will be a debate and how that is resolved. I don't yet know because it's an early. We're in the early stages. What we also as a country need to remember is this is not just about a debate amongst ourselves. We can't just spend all our time debating amongst ourselves and then and then, but not bring in the European Union.
You know, I mean, as we did, you know, with with some of the other aspects, you know, so for example, with, you know, some of our debates in terms of, of, of, of repairing some of the damage of the more obvious damage of Brexit, we have a debate amongst ourselves and then we come and see the European Union and for example, has already been mentioned by Dan on safe. European Union says no. And that has been quite difficult for us because over a period of two years, we've had this debate going on.
We've come and we've yet to have any particular advantages yet in terms of of what we've had back from the European Union. And we hope that this that the that the summit in November will be the beginning of a warming of relationships, but also tangible results that we will be able to show the British people, this is to your advantage. If we become closer to the European Union . Now we've done this, do you feel confident to be able to move forward and to continue to move closer? I don't know, I mean, I just I think it's right to kind of put that contribution as well as I say, and I appreciate it's not representative of everybody, but I think it's representative of a of quite a large number of politicians.
10:58
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
To, to add to that what you have mentioned. The decision was as it is, and the sovereignty of the British people, the people of UK, we have to accept and we can regret. But it's a fact, and we all know that we can cooperate closely together bilateral and between European Union and UK. Even in the situation we are now. But my prognosis for the future is as far as we go with cooperation, we more and more come to points where British people see that they should follow regulation of the European Union, for example, to enter single market parts of single market, you have to accept a set of regulations of European Union, but that it is only the second best option to be obliged to follow this regulation.
But not participating in the regulation making process of European Union. With the Commissioner and a seat in the Council and. And staffers in the Brussels bureaucracy and members in the Parliament at the end. If there is a very close cooperation between UK and European Union, probably something like as it would be if UK would still. Member, then probably the House of Commons have to take decisions in once a week.
Ten a list of ten different topics where you only can say yes or no to the 27th change of the directive on chemical products or something like that, because otherwise you're not allowed to participate in the single market and that people in UK, not only politicians but also from the industry ask, okay, is it not the better option to be part of the decision making process in Europe to come to better results? But this is something that should be experienced in the next years.
Probably. We also see fields where this is not not necessary, but at the end , our hearts are open for rejoining European Union. But you have. To
But not participating in the regulation making process of European Union. With the Commissioner and a seat in the Council and. And staffers in the Brussels bureaucracy and members in the Parliament at the end. If there is a very close cooperation between UK and European Union, probably something like as it would be if UK would still. Member, then probably the House of Commons have to take decisions in once a week.
Ten a list of ten different topics where you only can say yes or no to the 27th change of the directive on chemical products or something like that, because otherwise you're not allowed to participate in the single market and that people in UK, not only politicians but also from the industry ask, okay, is it not the better option to be part of the decision making process in Europe to come to better results? But this is something that should be experienced in the next years.
Probably. We also see fields where this is not not necessary, but at the end , our hearts are open for rejoining European Union. But you have. To
11:00
11:00
11:00
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
But but but the vast majority of our plastic bottles do now. And that's because not because we've been involved in a discussion about that just because that's what they're doing in Europe. So the companies in the UK who want to export to the European Union without any discussion just have to stick to those rules, and then we end up being subject to those rules, too, without it ever being discussed in Parliament or anywhere else. And if you want to export to the European Union, you have to abide by those rules.
And small businesses in particular can't do two versions. They're too small. So it's just easier to to simply abide by European Union rules. And this, as you say, will become increasingly self-evident, it seems to me. And Alex. Thank you.
And small businesses in particular can't do two versions. They're too small. So it's just easier to to simply abide by European Union rules. And this, as you say, will become increasingly self-evident, it seems to me. And Alex. Thank you.
11:01
Alex Ballinger
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Alex Ballinger
And welcome. So I, I represent a seat that voted quite heavily to leave the European Union. I didn't support that decision, but I think it's worth worth pointing it out. And there was a big discussion about exactly what you're what you're talking about, Jürgen Hart, which was the UK having sovereignty and being able to design and produce goods in our own way. And we wouldn't be stuck with the strictures of the European market and the challenges that that faced.
I think ten years on, you can probably count on 1 or 2 hands the number of goods that have changed for exactly the reason that you spoke about. And then businesses in my constituency and all across the West Midlands are having enormous problems exporting to the European Union and the same people in some cases that thought this this was actually a very sensible thing to do. The demonstration of the last ten years has been actually this has been really economically damaging and unhelpful.
And there are also barriers, of course, that have been put up by the European Union. And I talk about the steel tariffs as another one, as well as safe, which have been which have been particularly particularly difficult. I just wanted to quickly come back to Ukraine because whilst there are differences amongst the committee on our relationship with the European Union, I think there are no differences really on our situation with Ukraine. The UK is very united in supporting Ukraine against Russian aggression.
We're very united in providing military and financial support and we want to give frozen assets and the like I was, I was just interested in those dissenting voices on the committee. And I think Stefan has already spoken. But maybe from the left wing, why? Why there is a different position within Germany, why the German public isn't doesn't feel that the threat of the Russians, from your perspective, doesn't require that level of military support and military cooperation.
I'll be interested in that in that sort of.
I think ten years on, you can probably count on 1 or 2 hands the number of goods that have changed for exactly the reason that you spoke about. And then businesses in my constituency and all across the West Midlands are having enormous problems exporting to the European Union and the same people in some cases that thought this this was actually a very sensible thing to do. The demonstration of the last ten years has been actually this has been really economically damaging and unhelpful.
And there are also barriers, of course, that have been put up by the European Union. And I talk about the steel tariffs as another one, as well as safe, which have been which have been particularly particularly difficult. I just wanted to quickly come back to Ukraine because whilst there are differences amongst the committee on our relationship with the European Union, I think there are no differences really on our situation with Ukraine. The UK is very united in supporting Ukraine against Russian aggression.
We're very united in providing military and financial support and we want to give frozen assets and the like I was, I was just interested in those dissenting voices on the committee. And I think Stefan has already spoken. But maybe from the left wing, why? Why there is a different position within Germany, why the German public isn't doesn't feel that the threat of the Russians, from your perspective, doesn't require that level of military support and military cooperation.
I'll be interested in that in that sort of.
11:03
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
Yeah. Thank you for the question. It's actually also in my party, there's a debate around that topic, and I think there has been a lot of. A lot of things we always believed in have rapidly changed in 2022. Latest some started in 2014 already. And I think that it's a bit it would be a bit too easy to say that we don't support Ukraine. I don't believe that's actually true.
I just think that after five years of war, we think that there is what I what I touched on before, that we are missing a part of the discussion, which we believe is necessary as well. And that's the topic of how to end the war. We all know that this will happen on the on a negotiation table, and we believe that we are not talking enough about how to get there, how to get to this negotiation table. And we know that especially Germany and probably the UK as well, will not be the one who can mediate discussions because we are way too far in.
But I think we we do have also a responsibility to look for people or for countries for, for mediators to to do this mediation, to do the negotiation, to bring this war to an end. Because it's five years in, I've been to Ukraine. I'm talking to Ukrainian people a lot. I'm in touch with a healthcare union in Ukraine. So it's not that this is like foreign to me. And I do see how people in Ukraine are suffering under this war.
So it's not that we want to. It is a war of aggression started by Russia. Russia could stop it today if they if they would take out their troops. That's all 1,000% agree on that. It's just not happening by us wishing for that. I do believe we have to work to come to an end. And we believe that we are not talking about this side or this this part of the of the topic.
Enough. We are talking a lot about defence. We are talking a lot about weapons and this system. And then Ukraine can stop Putin and so on. And we look we do that since five years and just believe that we have to talk about this other side as well. And that's why we are trying to talk about that and not so much about the other things, because they are talked about enough. I would say that's that's our that's our position.
We do believe that it's important that Ukrainian sovereignty is not only I do believe it's not only threatened by by Russia right now, but also, for instance, by the US and what they are doing with selling out, with making deals on rare earth and so on, and that the European Union and, and Germany and so on should not support that with like seeing Ukraine as a big investment place and not as a place where people are actually suffering under a war.
So that Ukrainian sovereignty is really, yeah, upheld on all fronts. Yeah.
I just think that after five years of war, we think that there is what I what I touched on before, that we are missing a part of the discussion, which we believe is necessary as well. And that's the topic of how to end the war. We all know that this will happen on the on a negotiation table, and we believe that we are not talking enough about how to get there, how to get to this negotiation table. And we know that especially Germany and probably the UK as well, will not be the one who can mediate discussions because we are way too far in.
But I think we we do have also a responsibility to look for people or for countries for, for mediators to to do this mediation, to do the negotiation, to bring this war to an end. Because it's five years in, I've been to Ukraine. I'm talking to Ukrainian people a lot. I'm in touch with a healthcare union in Ukraine. So it's not that this is like foreign to me. And I do see how people in Ukraine are suffering under this war.
So it's not that we want to. It is a war of aggression started by Russia. Russia could stop it today if they if they would take out their troops. That's all 1,000% agree on that. It's just not happening by us wishing for that. I do believe we have to work to come to an end. And we believe that we are not talking about this side or this this part of the of the topic.
Enough. We are talking a lot about defence. We are talking a lot about weapons and this system. And then Ukraine can stop Putin and so on. And we look we do that since five years and just believe that we have to talk about this other side as well. And that's why we are trying to talk about that and not so much about the other things, because they are talked about enough. I would say that's that's our that's our position.
We do believe that it's important that Ukrainian sovereignty is not only I do believe it's not only threatened by by Russia right now, but also, for instance, by the US and what they are doing with selling out, with making deals on rare earth and so on, and that the European Union and, and Germany and so on should not support that with like seeing Ukraine as a big investment place and not as a place where people are actually suffering under a war.
So that Ukrainian sovereignty is really, yeah, upheld on all fronts. Yeah.
11:06
11:06
11:06
11:06
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And against armament of Germany. We are increasing the money for the defense budget extremely, very high. And the Left party says no to this. Yes, but. And then you say we need more diplomatic activities. And I would say then I agree, because it's not acceptable for the European Union that Mr. Kushner and Mr. Wittkopf speak in Moscow about European future.
And we are not at the table because European Union is not willing to speak to Russia. This is, in my opinion, a mistake. This is not the position of the German government, but it's my opinion and our foreign minister in the last United Nations General Assembly met Lavrov and started for the very first time since four years, a discussion. It was a hard discussion. It was an unfriendly discussion. There was nothing in 20 minutes, but it was the signal.
We are willing even to speak to Russia if they are willing to negotiate with us. And at the moment they don't want to negotiate, but we are willing to do it. So this is the question about diplomatic solutions. But nevertheless, we say we support Ukraine as much as it's necessary. Whatever it takes, said Chancellor.
And we are not at the table because European Union is not willing to speak to Russia. This is, in my opinion, a mistake. This is not the position of the German government, but it's my opinion and our foreign minister in the last United Nations General Assembly met Lavrov and started for the very first time since four years, a discussion. It was a hard discussion. It was an unfriendly discussion. There was nothing in 20 minutes, but it was the signal.
We are willing even to speak to Russia if they are willing to negotiate with us. And at the moment they don't want to negotiate, but we are willing to do it. So this is the question about diplomatic solutions. But nevertheless, we say we support Ukraine as much as it's necessary. Whatever it takes, said Chancellor.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Democrats. Again, it's right. We are standing with Ukraine. We have a we together have a coalition see to CSU and SPD. But at the same time, we have start to talk about diplomacy. Our opinion and our view about security. It's not only a view and perspective to see security only from the defense side. Security is more just to invest in defense.
It's development. We always talking about 3DS defense development and also diplomacy. I would like to describe you. What is the atmosphere in the German society? We as coalition we are very clear. We want to support the sovereignty of Ukraine. At the same time, we can recognize and realize now, after some election on the state level, that in Baden-Württemberg, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Saxony-Anhalt, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and also in the republic level, if you are seeing the polls that the anti Ukrainian coalition, the Anti-ukrainian coalition, that means politics against Ukraine.
It is in combination between AfD and BSW that they are not raised a little bit in the polls. Maybe they also have together a very strong majority. So
It's development. We always talking about 3DS defense development and also diplomacy. I would like to describe you. What is the atmosphere in the German society? We as coalition we are very clear. We want to support the sovereignty of Ukraine. At the same time, we can recognize and realize now, after some election on the state level, that in Baden-Württemberg, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Saxony-Anhalt, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and also in the republic level, if you are seeing the polls that the anti Ukrainian coalition, the Anti-ukrainian coalition, that means politics against Ukraine.
It is in combination between AfD and BSW that they are not raised a little bit in the polls. Maybe they also have together a very strong majority. So
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Is so strong. currently in Germany. That is a problem for our foreign affairs policy right now. So we have to look how can we create a. strategy that's a society legitimation. Stay with our support with Ukraine. So Ukraine will might not lose this war. Or can win this war if we as. Germany still support Ukraine.
But how can we guarantee this , that the German government and Parliament will stay very strongly for Ukraine if we are. losing the support of the German society, why is it so? The. Four years ago we had the full support of the German society for this kind of plan. Now we have a budget discussion about it, that we are investing hundreds of billions in defense, and we are standing behind this because it's necessary.
We don't have any more the hundred. 3% protection from the US. So we realize this new situation after 2022. But at the same time, we have a budget discussion in Germany that some social.
But how can we guarantee this , that the German government and Parliament will stay very strongly for Ukraine if we are. losing the support of the German society, why is it so? The. Four years ago we had the full support of the German society for this kind of plan. Now we have a budget discussion about it, that we are investing hundreds of billions in defense, and we are standing behind this because it's necessary.
We don't have any more the hundred. 3% protection from the US. So we realize this new situation after 2022. But at the same time, we have a budget discussion in Germany that some social.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
If you are looking on a technique way on it, it's not true. The one thing it depends, not with the other thing, but still, it's easy in this vacuum. Now for right wing parties, also for left populists to say, look, the money from Germany that is going to Ukraine, it's not going anymore in social programs. So the people in Germany. So this is currently the the. debate and the atmosphere in the German society and the public media that make it a little bit more.
difficult to stay on this way. So it's the result of this, the lessons, lessons learned of this, it's not to stop to support Ukraine, but we have to show our people, the people in Germany and in the partner countries that we are ready and that we are that we have the will to find a the the diplomatic way for this war. It's not our fault that it's not possible. It's the fault of Putin currently because we want to talk.
He doesn't want to talk. And at the same time, we have to find also a solution for our budget problem. We have to show the people in Germany that we will not cut social.
difficult to stay on this way. So it's the result of this, the lessons, lessons learned of this, it's not to stop to support Ukraine, but we have to show our people, the people in Germany and in the partner countries that we are ready and that we are that we have the will to find a the the diplomatic way for this war. It's not our fault that it's not possible. It's the fault of Putin currently because we want to talk.
He doesn't want to talk. And at the same time, we have to find also a solution for our budget problem. We have to show the people in Germany that we will not cut social.
11:13
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Because foreign affair politics is always very often also a result of. Of a strong society. So we can be strong in foreign affairs if our society is so strong, if we are not accepting to divided our society in poor and rich. So we also need a social answer on all these big issues. So that is the biggest problem that we have currently. And it is not easy for our coalition to find the right answers on it, because the two.
polarization parts in our parliament, the the left populists and the . Right
polarization parts in our parliament, the the left populists and the . Right
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
the way that the way they do that here. And yeah, just very briefly, I do believe that it's I mean, that things are getting confused. Like the support for Ukraine is getting confused with the realignment of Germany. And I do believe that that's an issue. And I think we have to discuss whether Germany needs to have the biggest conventional army in Europe again. Right. So I think this is a.
discussion which is very, very fair to have not only in Germany but maybe also in Europe, whether that's a good idea. And that's not denying that there's a threat from Putin and from Russia. Not at all. But I think we have to be very honest on what we need and what the expenses is for this kind of rearmament and this billions. You talked about. invested in arms, where, on the other hand, Social Security is getting cut.
And I'm myself, I'm I'm an ICU nurse. And when I'm talking to my colleagues, for them, security is something very different than when we are talking in this room. For them, security means that they are. There is enough stuff on a night shift to take care of their patients and to make sure that no one is dying because they are understaffed. Right. And I think we have to we always have to keep that in mind, that security for different people means very, very different things.
And that this kind of security is very, very important as well. For a single mom who doesn't want to be evicted because she can't pay her rent anymore, right? This is a very, very real security threat for people. And I think we have to keep that in mind, and we have to make sure . That
discussion which is very, very fair to have not only in Germany but maybe also in Europe, whether that's a good idea. And that's not denying that there's a threat from Putin and from Russia. Not at all. But I think we have to be very honest on what we need and what the expenses is for this kind of rearmament and this billions. You talked about. invested in arms, where, on the other hand, Social Security is getting cut.
And I'm myself, I'm I'm an ICU nurse. And when I'm talking to my colleagues, for them, security is something very different than when we are talking in this room. For them, security means that they are. There is enough stuff on a night shift to take care of their patients and to make sure that no one is dying because they are understaffed. Right. And I think we have to we always have to keep that in mind, that security for different people means very, very different things.
And that this kind of security is very, very important as well. For a single mom who doesn't want to be evicted because she can't pay her rent anymore, right? This is a very, very real security threat for people. And I think we have to keep that in mind, and we have to make sure . That
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
in place. Yeah. Sorry. Please, just just I would have to say a lot to the arguments of my colleagues, but I will not. I just want to to say two things. First, foreign affairs decisions in Germany were. sometimes taken where there was a big. controversy in the public, the. rearmament of Germany and joining of NATO in, in, in the 50s was has not a majority in the in the public at that time, the NATO decision on rearming with medium range.
missiles in the beginning of the 80s was not has not had not has had not a majority in the in the public, but was necessary and therefore done. concerning support for Ukraine. My assessment of the situation is that the most. likely best strategy is to make. Ukraine as strong as possible, so that Putin. himself has to go away from his position that he, sooner or later will win , in case that he come to a personal assessment that.
probably the. Ukraine war, the war against Ukraine, might become a failure, then he will be willing to start. negotiations because he will avoid a situation where he come into a in a critical situation. And this is our strategy to make Ukraine as strong as possible to to bring Putin on the table for. negotiations and then start them. But he has to do the first step, because up to today, he is convinced that he will win.
And it was interesting for me to hear that beside all hiccups between North America and Europe in that question, Mr. Ratcliffe, a member of the cabinet of of Donald Trump, went to Moscow and he gave two messages. Putin don't believe that NATO will struggle and NATO will split or NATO will fail. We be sure that America is standing on the side of of NATO and of Europe. And second, our assessment of your situation and of the situation of.
missiles in the beginning of the 80s was not has not had not has had not a majority in the in the public, but was necessary and therefore done. concerning support for Ukraine. My assessment of the situation is that the most. likely best strategy is to make. Ukraine as strong as possible, so that Putin. himself has to go away from his position that he, sooner or later will win , in case that he come to a personal assessment that.
probably the. Ukraine war, the war against Ukraine, might become a failure, then he will be willing to start. negotiations because he will avoid a situation where he come into a in a critical situation. And this is our strategy to make Ukraine as strong as possible to to bring Putin on the table for. negotiations and then start them. But he has to do the first step, because up to today, he is convinced that he will win.
And it was interesting for me to hear that beside all hiccups between North America and Europe in that question, Mr. Ratcliffe, a member of the cabinet of of Donald Trump, went to Moscow and he gave two messages. Putin don't believe that NATO will struggle and NATO will split or NATO will fail. We be sure that America is standing on the side of of NATO and of Europe. And second, our assessment of your situation and of the situation of.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
And all information may have set us. You cannot win that war. And this is the message we need to transfer to Putin to bring him to a point where he said, he says, oh, the best way out is now to do something disruptive like starting negotiations. We are not yet on that point, but from my point of view, it's the most the most the strategy with the most, most . Likely
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Yeah, I think you'll find lots of agreement from from outside. I don't know if you're if any of the other German representatives have any other questions to ask us during this formal session. If you don't, I think perhaps we could bring this open session to a close by saying, thank you very much. It's it's been really.
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
And I hope that people watching it will also find it interesting. And those. It'll be in Hansard, presumably as well. It'll be. And there'll be an official record of this, too. It is a it's a unique and historic moment. And we are so honored to have you here and so thankful for you to to come all this way. What we'd like to do is to, once we've finished this formal session, to break into an informal session which isn't.
online . and there won't be an official record of it, and it will allow us to continue this conversation, perhaps in a more free flowing way.
online . and there won't be an official record of it, and it will allow us to continue this conversation, perhaps in a more free flowing way.
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