International Development Committee
Tuesday 13th October 2026
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14:00
Sarah Champion
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Sarah Champion
We are starting the session of the International Development Select Committee with our first session, where we're focusing on higher education and research research partnerships that the UK government is supporting. We're really interested to hear your views and opinions on this. When the committee meets people from around the world, they always speak very, very highly about our research institutions, and we're really keen to make sure that those skills, experience and specialisms are protected as Fcdo is sort of changing its shape and priorities.
If I could ask by start by asking each of you to introduce yourself and either your personal work in this field or your organisation's work, that would be great. I'm going to run down the line. So, Adrian, could I ask you to introduce yourself?
If I could ask by start by asking each of you to introduce yourself and either your personal work in this field or your organisation's work, that would be great. I'm going to run down the line. So, Adrian, could I ask you to introduce yourself?
14:01
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thank you. Yeah, I'm Adrian Martin, I'm professor of environment and development at the University of East Anglia in the School of Global Development. My work is primarily oriented at trying to understand how we can reconcile our responses to major environmental problems the climate, biodiversity with the needs and livelihoods of local people to avoid conflicts and to ensure those efforts are more effective. The UEA itself has a long history with international development. We had the first development studies degree course in 1973.
We now we were in the last sort of government assessment exercise. We were ranked the top for our for our research. I think the development research plays a big role in in the university. It's a sort of catalyst across some of our main pillars of research, which are health, climate, and creativity. And I think increasingly and something I mentioned a bit later perhaps is we are sort of leveraging relationships with on site, world class bioscience institutions, which we have a real concentration of John Innes Centre, the Sainsbury Laboratory, the Quadram Institute, the Earlham Institute and so on.
And that's quite fruitful. I'll leave it there.
We now we were in the last sort of government assessment exercise. We were ranked the top for our for our research. I think the development research plays a big role in in the university. It's a sort of catalyst across some of our main pillars of research, which are health, climate, and creativity. And I think increasingly and something I mentioned a bit later perhaps is we are sort of leveraging relationships with on site, world class bioscience institutions, which we have a real concentration of John Innes Centre, the Sainsbury Laboratory, the Quadram Institute, the Earlham Institute and so on.
And that's quite fruitful. I'll leave it there.
14:02
14:03
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I mean, the university was very young at that point, in a way, and it was the passion of sort of individuals or groups of people who were saying, you know, this is something we should be doing. And it started off more as consultancy pre 73. And then, you know, as that sort of built up the staff and expertise, we turned it into a degree course. So joining us and so they weren't sort of there on site at the time.
That's a more recent thing. Interesting.
That's a more recent thing. Interesting.
14:03
14:03
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah yeah yeah. Hi. I'm Liz Baggs. I'm vice principal for research and innovation at the University of Edinburgh. I should also say, for the purposes of this committee, I'm a commissioner for the Commonwealth Scholarship Commission as well. So the University of Edinburgh, I mean we're an old university and we've been in existence for over 400 years. And actually our medical school is celebrating its 300th anniversary this year. And global impact is absolutely core to our mission.
We we have a range of international projects. And personally, I've had projects funded through the Global Challenges Research Fund so I can talk on all those levels.
We we have a range of international projects. And personally, I've had projects funded through the Global Challenges Research Fund so I can talk on all those levels.
14:04
14:04
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes. So we we attract the very best talent to study with us in the UK, and that's on master's courses, but also PhD projects. And that's a big distinction that the Commonwealth Scholarship Commission provides as opposed to Chevening, is that we offer those research scholarships. So yes, I think we have alumni of over. I think it's 31,000. And I think it's been going. Yes. And I think it's been running since 1960.
So. And I see those scholars as absolutely essential to to soft power for the UK. My understanding is that for every, every £1 that the government invests in those scholars, we see £1.6 come back to the UK economy as well. Wow.
So. And I see those scholars as absolutely essential to to soft power for the UK. My understanding is that for every, every £1 that the government invests in those scholars, we see £1.6 come back to the UK economy as well. Wow.
14:05
14:05
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So it's about it's about the influence that those scholars have. So we only take we take the best talent, but we take that best talent that we are sure will have impact in their home countries when they return. And that's an important criterion for selection. And we follow up on that through our alumni engagement and through British embassies and high commissions to to actually follow up in terms of what those scholars are doing.
And some of them have ended up in extremely high, high positions, really influencing in their home countries. So it's very successful. Yeah.
And some of them have ended up in extremely high, high positions, really influencing in their home countries. So it's very successful. Yeah.
14:06
14:06
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I yeah, exactly. Tough, tough act. I'm Jonathan Leape, I'm the executive director of the International Growth Centre, which is based at the London School of Economics, founded as an initiative of DfID in 2008 with the mission of promoting inclusive and sustainable growth in developing countries through pathbreaking research partnerships. So we are sort of key design feature of the IGC has been to be there. So we've had resident teams in countries across Africa, South Asia and the Middle East.
And the idea of this is to enable us to have really quite a deep a view of both cogeneration of research, but also of localisation of research. So it starts with the agenda setting. And that's done very much jointly with policy leaders. So we engage typically at the Minister of Finance level, sometimes head of state. And we agree, what should be the priorities in terms of where IGC can add value to to the policy making process around growth.
And then we organise our our research around four themes of what we see as key drivers of growth in developing countries. And very briefly, those are macro stability and state capability. Trade firms and structural transformation. So the whole transformation of the private sector, energy and infrastructure. And that also includes cities which we see very much as engines of growth. And then finally labour markets and women's economic empowerment.
So both labour markets generally, but with a particular focus around issues of female labour force participation. And then we have just to make things complicated. We have four cross-cutting themes which really don't fit in any one box. So one of those is gender. So gender issues run across all of these areas. Another of those is data and AI. And that's increasingly transforming the policy making environment. And we're working to work with governments to understand both how they can make policy more effectively with data and AI, partly just getting access to their own data.
Governments worldwide sit on masses of data, administrative data, but don't get access to it. So data is the second one. Political economy and geoeconomics is the third one, and climate is the fourth one. So those are things that we think need to run all the way through as the kind of DNA of our organisation. But with those core pillars, those four core pillars of research, and then very briefly, how we work is to combine both commissioning at the local country level and global commissioning.
The global commissioning is driven by country priorities. So we work with our country teams , and they are to identify what are the key priorities in that country. And then we put those questions to a global audience of researchers. So one of the things we do is create a level playing field across researchers in the global south and the global north. And the idea is to try to get the best minds to think about these problems.
And we going forward, we'll have 90% of our research projects involving researchers from the country itself. So right now we're at 70%. But we want to push that further. And our ideal is to have projects that involve local researchers and international researchers, because we think there's huge cross-fertilization in that process, and to have projects that make a major policy impact, which we track very carefully. And I can talk about that and have an academic impact.
So of our published articles, 20% are in the top five journals of economics internationally.
And the idea of this is to enable us to have really quite a deep a view of both cogeneration of research, but also of localisation of research. So it starts with the agenda setting. And that's done very much jointly with policy leaders. So we engage typically at the Minister of Finance level, sometimes head of state. And we agree, what should be the priorities in terms of where IGC can add value to to the policy making process around growth.
And then we organise our our research around four themes of what we see as key drivers of growth in developing countries. And very briefly, those are macro stability and state capability. Trade firms and structural transformation. So the whole transformation of the private sector, energy and infrastructure. And that also includes cities which we see very much as engines of growth. And then finally labour markets and women's economic empowerment.
So both labour markets generally, but with a particular focus around issues of female labour force participation. And then we have just to make things complicated. We have four cross-cutting themes which really don't fit in any one box. So one of those is gender. So gender issues run across all of these areas. Another of those is data and AI. And that's increasingly transforming the policy making environment. And we're working to work with governments to understand both how they can make policy more effectively with data and AI, partly just getting access to their own data.
Governments worldwide sit on masses of data, administrative data, but don't get access to it. So data is the second one. Political economy and geoeconomics is the third one, and climate is the fourth one. So those are things that we think need to run all the way through as the kind of DNA of our organisation. But with those core pillars, those four core pillars of research, and then very briefly, how we work is to combine both commissioning at the local country level and global commissioning.
The global commissioning is driven by country priorities. So we work with our country teams , and they are to identify what are the key priorities in that country. And then we put those questions to a global audience of researchers. So one of the things we do is create a level playing field across researchers in the global south and the global north. And the idea is to try to get the best minds to think about these problems.
And we going forward, we'll have 90% of our research projects involving researchers from the country itself. So right now we're at 70%. But we want to push that further. And our ideal is to have projects that involve local researchers and international researchers, because we think there's huge cross-fertilization in that process, and to have projects that make a major policy impact, which we track very carefully. And I can talk about that and have an academic impact.
So of our published articles, 20% are in the top five journals of economics internationally.
14:09
14:09
Sarah Champion
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Sarah Champion
Thank you. So what the three of you have said really highlights just how valuable the work is that you do. And I would like us now to sort of get into some of the details really around how you could add more value if your influence is being respected. And fundamentally, if you're suffering from funding cuts as a consequence of the changes that are going on, I'm going to hand over to Sam, who's going to do our first round of questions.
14:10
Sam Rushworth
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Sam Rushworth
Thank you. Chair. Before I begin, I must declare an interest that I was previously in receipt of a Global Challenges Research Fund grant as an associate researcher at the University of East Anglia. And so Professor Martin is known to me. I did my PhD there. The. So the Global Challenges Research Fund ran from 2016 to 2021. Now its successor programme has been scrapped. Liz, this is a question for you.
What should the Fcdo learn from the G. CRF when designing a new successor programme?
What should the Fcdo learn from the G. CRF when designing a new successor programme?
14:10
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes. Okay. So I think the I mean the G CRF when it was running I think was highly successful. What it enabled us to do is to set up sort of equitable partnerships and capacity building, provided support for early career researchers. It enabled us to create important networks. It provided the opportunity for significant leverage, for example, from the small grants to additional investment. And it drove really interdisciplinary innovation.
So lots of positives there. I mean, the the negatives, obviously, that arose with the the cuts resulted in great instability. So I would plead that that doesn't happen again, that we honor the agreements when we've actually set something up, because that was absolutely detrimental, particularly to the people that were employed within those projects and the infrastructure. And we did. We need. If we go forward, we need to find a way to get beyond the perception that this is led by the global North.
So the priorities need to be set, if not certainly really well aligned with the with lmic priorities. And we need to find a way for them to have more control over the administration of of that money. So I think going forward, I would plea for more equitable partnerships. So prioritising the Lmic. So capacity building, building genuine relationships, you know, direct funding, lmics if that is possible, and also sustained multi-year commitment.
And probably what we need is a diverse range of funding. So sort of small, small funds for setting up sort of initial sort of travel grants and networks scaling right through to very large commitments that let us really sort of then implement it in practice, and also a broad scope or broad remit. So just to make sure that there, there aren't, there aren't areas that we all countries that we are leaving behind.
So lots of positives there. I mean, the the negatives, obviously, that arose with the the cuts resulted in great instability. So I would plead that that doesn't happen again, that we honor the agreements when we've actually set something up, because that was absolutely detrimental, particularly to the people that were employed within those projects and the infrastructure. And we did. We need. If we go forward, we need to find a way to get beyond the perception that this is led by the global North.
So the priorities need to be set, if not certainly really well aligned with the with lmic priorities. And we need to find a way for them to have more control over the administration of of that money. So I think going forward, I would plea for more equitable partnerships. So prioritising the Lmic. So capacity building, building genuine relationships, you know, direct funding, lmics if that is possible, and also sustained multi-year commitment.
And probably what we need is a diverse range of funding. So sort of small, small funds for setting up sort of initial sort of travel grants and networks scaling right through to very large commitments that let us really sort of then implement it in practice, and also a broad scope or broad remit. So just to make sure that there, there aren't, there aren't areas that we all countries that we are leaving behind.
14:13
14:13
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes, I think it's it's around that it's that ability to, to scale and that ability to connect and ability to connect also between countries. So we've seen that we have in a written evidence, I think we've provided some examples of that, where you set up networks between countries that enable you then to bring different sectors together. So there are examples where we've brought sort of medical practitioners, policy makers, even sort of, you know, homeless people in into the, into the equation, which I think is very difficult to do with any other form of funding.
And then we can then set up. So there are projects where there are examples where we set up sort of global action plans as well. So that's that, that reach, that broader reach than you would have from another type of funding.
And then we can then set up. So there are projects where there are examples where we set up sort of global action plans as well. So that's that, that reach, that broader reach than you would have from another type of funding.
14:14
Sam Rushworth
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Sam Rushworth
Thank you. I've got three questions for you. So I'll ask you to keep your responses relatively brief. Just just so that I don't eat into my colleagues time. Firstly, could you please give us a brief rundown of the Oda supported projects that you have undertaken and how that's contributed towards UK development objectives?
14:14
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Okay. I mean, personally, I guess a a key one has been trying to understand how we can undertake conservation across the tropics, in particular , in ways which sort of bring it in line with the interests of, of local people. So trying to make conservation more just and effective. That's had Oda based funding right from the the Esper program, ecosystem services and poverty alleviation and less. But but some funding is as well.
It's I think one of the big experiences of that is that Oda funding acts as a sort of effective catalyst. It. It does fund some of the things that are difficult to fund with other sources because it invests in ways of working, such as using drama and so on, to communicate and understand the the knowledge of local people and to elicit their values and interests. It enables very sort of early stage investment in research.
So for us, it enabled us to establish a a really good framework for just conservation. It enabled us to bring people who are working in protected area conservation, in national parks and wildlife areas, and so on from across Africa and elsewhere in around the table, and actually spend days working together on what what is the research agenda? What's the problem, as well as how are we going to arrive at a solution to that? And that kind of investment in the the sort of genuine partnership which Liz has talked about is something which has been difficult to achieve.
Then subsequently there's the sort of the uptake. So how do we sort of get that out through tools? So we've partnered with International Institute for Environment and Development, developing tools which can then be now operating in many parks. We worked with IUCN to get it into policy guidance documents with the German development sector to get it into the Convention on Biodiversity and so on. But it's a sort of it's a big process.
But that role as a catalyst for Oda money is something which I think is we have a lot of impactful projects. It works in slightly different ways in each of them. I think understanding how that sort of role of catalyst works to leverage in lots of other money and lots of other partners is perhaps something we should be looking at going forward. Sorry, that's not such a short answer. No, no,
It's I think one of the big experiences of that is that Oda funding acts as a sort of effective catalyst. It. It does fund some of the things that are difficult to fund with other sources because it invests in ways of working, such as using drama and so on, to communicate and understand the the knowledge of local people and to elicit their values and interests. It enables very sort of early stage investment in research.
So for us, it enabled us to establish a a really good framework for just conservation. It enabled us to bring people who are working in protected area conservation, in national parks and wildlife areas, and so on from across Africa and elsewhere in around the table, and actually spend days working together on what what is the research agenda? What's the problem, as well as how are we going to arrive at a solution to that? And that kind of investment in the the sort of genuine partnership which Liz has talked about is something which has been difficult to achieve.
Then subsequently there's the sort of the uptake. So how do we sort of get that out through tools? So we've partnered with International Institute for Environment and Development, developing tools which can then be now operating in many parks. We worked with IUCN to get it into policy guidance documents with the German development sector to get it into the Convention on Biodiversity and so on. But it's a sort of it's a big process.
But that role as a catalyst for Oda money is something which I think is we have a lot of impactful projects. It works in slightly different ways in each of them. I think understanding how that sort of role of catalyst works to leverage in lots of other money and lots of other partners is perhaps something we should be looking at going forward. Sorry, that's not such a short answer. No, no,
14:17
Sam Rushworth
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Sam Rushworth
it's I'm just thinking, I mean, lots of lots of NGOs and multilateral institutions do partnership work in the global South and have and have on the ground partners. But is there anything specific about a research partnership and the knowledge that's co-produced that made what you're talking about more impactful?
14:17
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Well, one one key thing, I suppose, is that the UK does have very successful universities with very strong expertise. So that's something which enables us to, to bring partners around the table to not, not not to in a top down way, bring our expertise to bear on problems like that, but to convene and to sort of get things going. I mean, I can give you perhaps an example, something I'm peripherally involved with, Norwich Institute of Sustainable Development, which has been in part a sort of product of Oda funding, but now funded through private sector foundation trusts.
I mean, their work on agricultural index insurance, for example. I mean, it's a bit in Uganda, it's a big problem that small farmers around the world can't get insurance, and that stops them being able to invest in their farms and to be more productive and so on. But that, you know, research based partnerships are essential to, at the start to understand the problem and to be able to invest in the research, which develops the tools and the methods for addressing that.
After that, you know, once you've got proof of concept and so on, then other partners might pile on board. And now there's 900,000 farmers who are who are insured, who weren't before. And that that has a big effect. But, but yeah, it's that sort of capacity we hold and that how that capacity is trusted by a lot of key players overseas, and therefore they will want to be involved.
I mean, their work on agricultural index insurance, for example. I mean, it's a bit in Uganda, it's a big problem that small farmers around the world can't get insurance, and that stops them being able to invest in their farms and to be more productive and so on. But that, you know, research based partnerships are essential to, at the start to understand the problem and to be able to invest in the research, which develops the tools and the methods for addressing that.
After that, you know, once you've got proof of concept and so on, then other partners might pile on board. And now there's 900,000 farmers who are who are insured, who weren't before. And that that has a big effect. But, but yeah, it's that sort of capacity we hold and that how that capacity is trusted by a lot of key players overseas, and therefore they will want to be involved.
14:19
14:19
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
It's I would say it could have done better. It's done an awful lot to increase UK research capacity by making connections, interdisciplinary connections across the university like UEA has brought health, climate, economics, etc. it's done that and connected us with these bioscience institutes in effective ways. We've done our best to also ensure that that builds capacity is overseas, and it has to, you know, in tandem with scholarships and so on.
It's had a big effect, but I would say that GRF helped us to learn how to do that. We're much better at doing it now and having locally led research. But there were always limitations about the funding and there are still limitations. I know it's Defra, but I was we had a round of Darwin Challenge funding recently. We wanted local partners to lead these research bids, but there were financial due diligence requirements, which meant it was very hard, actually, for local NGOs and units with the skills to lead.
It's had a big effect, but I would say that GRF helped us to learn how to do that. We're much better at doing it now and having locally led research. But there were always limitations about the funding and there are still limitations. I know it's Defra, but I was we had a round of Darwin Challenge funding recently. We wanted local partners to lead these research bids, but there were financial due diligence requirements, which meant it was very hard, actually, for local NGOs and units with the skills to lead.
14:20
Sam Rushworth
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Sam Rushworth
So just, just just checking back my understanding what I'm what I'm hearing from you is that the research partnerships produced better knowledge because there was there was a collaborative approach to, to the knowledge production. It was deeply beneficial to British universities, but could have done much better at developing research capacity in the global South.
14:20
14:21
14:21
14:21
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I mean, again, it's for us, I mean, one small example, but I think others may have better. But we've done work in Colombia, for example, which has worked a lot with indigenous people and local communities on peace building. So as a sort of preventative kind of process, and that has succeeded in bringing new methods for which has now been used by a national network of over 100 mediators. So so it's it's having a sort of a real impact on how peace building takes place.
But I think, again, the it's about the ability to invest in ways of working in this particular case. So, so there was there was a lot of investment in use of the arts as well as the sciences. So that, you know, using drama, for example, as ways of communicating and getting people to sort of communicate more widely with their communities about what we were doing. Okay. Yeah.
But I think, again, the it's about the ability to invest in ways of working in this particular case. So, so there was there was a lot of investment in use of the arts as well as the sciences. So that, you know, using drama, for example, as ways of communicating and getting people to sort of communicate more widely with their communities about what we were doing. Okay. Yeah.
14:22
14:22
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Examples or sort of different. Okay. So we our sort of core model is to base a team of economists within an experienced policy lead as country director, and then they develop the partnership with government. So our core model is to be developing a partnership with the economic policy cluster in the governments where we engage. And what we've learned over the years is that this has to be cradle to grave for it to really have its impact.
So the cradle being building relationships over time where policy makers trust us, in part because of the neutrality and independence, in part because of our authority, our access to high levels of expertise, in part because we've delivered in the past. And so they believe we'll deliver in the press. So with that trust, we can then they are more candid with us about what their challenges are. And that's the whole start of the process.
So they help us set the agenda, which might really make a difference for them. And just on that, someone once said that one of Igc's great virtues is that it's ignorable. And the point was that the world Bank is not ignorable because you need the lending, the IMF is not ignorable and so forth. And so countries value expertise, which comes really independently to them and they can ignore it. Right. And we could be wrong, but that they have that, you know, that.
And so that then means that we get access to decisions that others wouldn't because we're not, we're not threatening. So the idea is to start with the agenda and set there and then. Sorry.
So the cradle being building relationships over time where policy makers trust us, in part because of the neutrality and independence, in part because of our authority, our access to high levels of expertise, in part because we've delivered in the past. And so they believe we'll deliver in the press. So with that trust, we can then they are more candid with us about what their challenges are. And that's the whole start of the process.
So they help us set the agenda, which might really make a difference for them. And just on that, someone once said that one of Igc's great virtues is that it's ignorable. And the point was that the world Bank is not ignorable because you need the lending, the IMF is not ignorable and so forth. And so countries value expertise, which comes really independently to them and they can ignore it. Right. And we could be wrong, but that they have that, you know, that.
And so that then means that we get access to decisions that others wouldn't because we're not, we're not threatening. So the idea is to start with the agenda and set there and then. Sorry.
14:24
14:24
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
It's a mix. It's always a country where Fcdo is active, previously differed so they can leverage the benefits of what we discovered through our research. In terms of our ability to engage, we need to have a government that's committed to reform and committed to using evidence as part of the reform process. So we pulled out of two countries seven years ago, Tanzania under President Magufuli and Zambia, because the president there was was rotating ministers in a way that made it impossible to engage.
We then went back into Zambia when Hichilema was elected. So a crucial thing is having a government that wants to reform and wants to engage with evidence as part of that. Within that, of course, as I'm sure all of us will say, identifying policy champions is absolutely crucial because you need somebody who can navigate the political economy and coalitions and all that sort of stuff, which we can never do. So then that's the cradle is the agenda.
Then we work with them. And this is very much a back and forth process. On what specific research question should we focus on? Because we, as researchers know what's known and what's not known, right? So sometimes it may just be surveying existing evidence and sometimes new new evidence is needed. And then we put that out to our global commissioning platform. Or they might put it locally. You know, we have those two possibilities.
And then crucially, we keep policymakers engaged throughout the process. So one of the things I think researchers often forget is it's not just your findings that are useful, right? Your baseline, what you learned when you tried to describe what the situation was can be useful. And so we try to have an ongoing interchange with policymakers that also builds ownership on their side so that when we then release the findings, it's more likely to be brought into policy decisions.
Can I
We then went back into Zambia when Hichilema was elected. So a crucial thing is having a government that wants to reform and wants to engage with evidence as part of that. Within that, of course, as I'm sure all of us will say, identifying policy champions is absolutely crucial because you need somebody who can navigate the political economy and coalitions and all that sort of stuff, which we can never do. So then that's the cradle is the agenda.
Then we work with them. And this is very much a back and forth process. On what specific research question should we focus on? Because we, as researchers know what's known and what's not known, right? So sometimes it may just be surveying existing evidence and sometimes new new evidence is needed. And then we put that out to our global commissioning platform. Or they might put it locally. You know, we have those two possibilities.
And then crucially, we keep policymakers engaged throughout the process. So one of the things I think researchers often forget is it's not just your findings that are useful, right? Your baseline, what you learned when you tried to describe what the situation was can be useful. And so we try to have an ongoing interchange with policymakers that also builds ownership on their side so that when we then release the findings, it's more likely to be brought into policy decisions.
Can I
14:26
14:26
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Really good question. I think we've done various things. So most recently we've established formal partnerships with local universities. So we have a lead university in every country where we work. And and that's really quite a broad relationship, not just about producing policy focused research, but also about developing research talent. And so we have mentorships, we have fellowships, we have other sorts of offers. We do quite a bit of online.
We offer quite a bit of online instruction as well. So we're trying to build those partners. We work with other non-university partners, think tanks where that's appropriate. As I said, we're currently at a position where 70% of the research we commission has local researchers as PiS. We're going to move that to 90%. It's tough because, you know, our our niche in the market is really at the upper end, very high quality research.
So that's why we've developed the partnerships with universities is really to help with the research. Training, right? Help them strengthen their research training programs.
We offer quite a bit of online instruction as well. So we're trying to build those partners. We work with other non-university partners, think tanks where that's appropriate. As I said, we're currently at a position where 70% of the research we commission has local researchers as PiS. We're going to move that to 90%. It's tough because, you know, our our niche in the market is really at the upper end, very high quality research.
So that's why we've developed the partnerships with universities is really to help with the research. Training, right? Help them strengthen their research training programs.
14:27
14:27
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Very much a transfer of tools? We don't have a lot of money, especially after the cuts. So we're not offering very much in the way of money to universities, but we're trying to offer in-kind things that we think are benefit. So 70% of our international research network is interested in mentoring and mentoring. We've now we've piloted this over over several years and really can create real value for the local researchers at low cost. The journals isn't something that that we're able to do, but I think what we find is most powerful is when a local researchers and we do a lot of work with early career researchers that when they join a Pi team, which has researchers from the UK or from from elsewhere, from research universities, because the transfers that happen there are really particularly valuable, right? I mean, you can watch the best online course in the world and not really absorb very much of it.
Whereas if you're working side by side with a leading Pi, then you learn from her, right? You understand, okay, this is how she thinks about the problem. This is how she thinks about research design, which is the key core challenge. And we see there that we end up getting building repeat offenders, right? So someone who comes in as a junior member of Pi group, then later sort of applies to us for funding in their own right or as part of another team and so forth.
Whereas if you're working side by side with a leading Pi, then you learn from her, right? You understand, okay, this is how she thinks about the problem. This is how she thinks about research design, which is the key core challenge. And we see there that we end up getting building repeat offenders, right? So someone who comes in as a junior member of Pi group, then later sort of applies to us for funding in their own right or as part of another team and so forth.
14:28
14:29
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think we they regard us as being responsible for doing that. Not, not them. So give you a couple of examples. So in Sierra Leone, we've had an engagement since 2018, initially with the very capable mayor of Freetown, which is about introducing property tax, and that had to address a whole range of problems from how do you value property in that context? And we had to have a simple, credible, transparent system to how do you get people to accept the idea that they're going to start paying a new tax? And so that involved visible increases in the level of public services to how do you manage billing? And so over a space of of eight years, we built with them a property tax system which doubled their revenue base as a city and has the potential to increase revenues fivefold.
Now, that is now being taken to four other four other cities within Freetown. And, and so is being implemented in a way that will have a significant fiscal impact.
Now, that is now being taken to four other four other cities within Freetown. And, and so is being implemented in a way that will have a significant fiscal impact.
14:29
Sam Rushworth
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Sam Rushworth
Thank you. I have one more question to Liz. Just just I'm thinking with your Commonwealth hat on, I'm interested in the sort of the soft power of the relationships that get built through research networks. And I wondered if you had any reflections on that. And particularly listening to Jonathan talk about these, these junior researchers and, you know, thinking about the impact of, of them and their relationship with a, with a British institution.
14:30
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, I mean, a soft power is incredibly important. So you're absolutely right to ask around that. I mean, I think particularly for the for the scholars, I mean, remember, they will have spent time in our system so they will understand the UK values, UK policies, and then they take that back home. And that really does help to build a sort of stability for the UK. And it increases, you know, the UK's influence or Britain's influence around the Commonwealth.
It also helps to build that cross-cultural trust and increases sort of positive perceptions of the UK. But also there are benefits going forward in terms of building networks for for future collaborations and partnerships. So I mean, the soft power cannot be understated, can't be overstated. I mean, it's absolutely essential to these scholarships.
It also helps to build that cross-cultural trust and increases sort of positive perceptions of the UK. But also there are benefits going forward in terms of building networks for for future collaborations and partnerships. So I mean, the soft power cannot be understated, can't be overstated. I mean, it's absolutely essential to these scholarships.
14:31
14:31
14:31
David Mundell
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David Mundell
The, the longevity of, of their, of their in-country arrangements. Because I think sometimes there is a suggestion that people have benefited from a such scholarships, but then left their home country. I on the basis of that a of of those benefits. And I had experienced myself, for example, being in Sierra Leone and finding that some people who had benefited from that support were were going to South Africa because they felt that the effort, economic opportunities were better there.
So is there any research really into the extent to which people have stayed within community, having benefited from. from from from the support?
So is there any research really into the extent to which people have stayed within community, having benefited from. from from from the support?
14:32
14:32
14:32
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
very useful. I can see what I can find, certainly for Commonwealth Scholarship Commissioner scholars. I do know that evening there is a return home audit. So they do need to then be at in their home country for at least two years for the Commonwealth Scholarship scholars, we , we only take on those that we have no really good, we feel has a really have really strong potential to have that impact back home. And they have to articulate what that impact will be and how they will put that into motion.
So my feeling is for the Commonwealth scholars that a lot of them, they passionately want to change things in their home country, and so they do. But in terms of the actual the data, I don't have that. But I could certainly ask if we can provide that.
So my feeling is for the Commonwealth scholars that a lot of them, they passionately want to change things in their home country, and so they do. But in terms of the actual the data, I don't have that. But I could certainly ask if we can provide that.
14:33
14:33
Tracy Gilbert
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Tracy Gilbert
Thank you. Chair. I've come to Jonathan first, but please, if there's others that want to join in, please be interested to hear your views. The government is increasingly looking to the private investment to fill gaps created by the cuts. What are the risks in relying on private capital and development research, particularly where the commercial returns are uncertain, but the development needs is really high?
14:33
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah, no, it's really important question. I think there's no question that private capital will play a major role in development going forward. There's no question that that's essential. And that's both domestic private capital. So mobilizing savings domestically but also attracting foreign capital. So there's no question that those will be needed to secure the kind of growth that these countries need. I think the question is really, does are we doing enough to support the institutional capability that governments need to create the right framework for that investment, domestic and international? So governments need to have strong regulatory frameworks that are enforced, that ensure that this private investment, when it occurs, is aligned with national priorities and with broader, broader social benefit.
So, you know, there's enormous potential benefit from investment in the grid, from investment in in new renewable sources from, you know, investments in high level services, which are going to be very important for structural transformation in these. So there's enormous potential, but, you know, left to its own devices, as we know, in all sorts of different spheres, they'll pursue private returns and maximize private returns. And often in weak enforcement regimes, that involves increasing private returns at the expense of the social return.
Right. So, you know, in in Zambia, for example, the government has been now quite aggressive in trying to fight fraud in terms of mining companies exporting. Excessive uncontrolled quantities of, of ore for processing elsewhere. And so, you know, the governments need to both have a regulatory framework and the ability to enforce it. But I think that's part of, of their growth strategy, right? That they need to be able to manage the private capital, both both domestically and internationally, and encourage it there.
I mean, one from some years ago, we were working in Ethiopia. One of the striking things that we learned was that the biggest source of domestic investment from foreign investors was not new stuff coming in. It was the new investments of existing investors. And so it's not enough to have tax holidays or one stop shops or that sort of thing. You have to address the issues on the ground. Okay.
What makes a firm want to expand on the ground? And if you do that, you're benefiting your domestic investors at the same time as your foreign investors. So I think there's a lot to be done, but it is a challenge. Okay.
So, you know, there's enormous potential benefit from investment in the grid, from investment in in new renewable sources from, you know, investments in high level services, which are going to be very important for structural transformation in these. So there's enormous potential, but, you know, left to its own devices, as we know, in all sorts of different spheres, they'll pursue private returns and maximize private returns. And often in weak enforcement regimes, that involves increasing private returns at the expense of the social return.
Right. So, you know, in in Zambia, for example, the government has been now quite aggressive in trying to fight fraud in terms of mining companies exporting. Excessive uncontrolled quantities of, of ore for processing elsewhere. And so, you know, the governments need to both have a regulatory framework and the ability to enforce it. But I think that's part of, of their growth strategy, right? That they need to be able to manage the private capital, both both domestically and internationally, and encourage it there.
I mean, one from some years ago, we were working in Ethiopia. One of the striking things that we learned was that the biggest source of domestic investment from foreign investors was not new stuff coming in. It was the new investments of existing investors. And so it's not enough to have tax holidays or one stop shops or that sort of thing. You have to address the issues on the ground. Okay.
What makes a firm want to expand on the ground? And if you do that, you're benefiting your domestic investors at the same time as your foreign investors. So I think there's a lot to be done, but it is a challenge. Okay.
14:36
14:36
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes. I just wanted to say, I think my my concern, I think with private investment is that there's a risk that it narrows the scope of development and that there's a there's a risk that some areas like mental health, non-communicable diseases, for example, are wiped off that funding map. And also there's a risk of investment into sort of a narrower range of countries as well. So I just don't think that it I think it has its place, but I don't think it can replace Oda funding.
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14:36
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I mean, a building on that. Exactly. That it has a clearly has a role in my area of environment. It has a role paying for carbon forestry, for trees to be planted for the value of the carbon and in lots of other areas. But it's not going to replace the role of public funds and public agencies, which are often funding the bits. We can't do the values of forests which can't be monetized and provide returns is important.
The equity elements are ensuring that the more marginalised and vulnerable groups are the ones who benefit from that investment, and lots of other things. But the regulation, I mean, gene editing is a is a big part of what we're doing now. And the UK is emerging as a key driver of regulation in that field as well as others. And that that requires oversight, long term vision beyond the sort of annual returns and so on.
So yeah, I mean, things, things that it just can't do very well.
The equity elements are ensuring that the more marginalised and vulnerable groups are the ones who benefit from that investment, and lots of other things. But the regulation, I mean, gene editing is a is a big part of what we're doing now. And the UK is emerging as a key driver of regulation in that field as well as others. And that that requires oversight, long term vision beyond the sort of annual returns and so on.
So yeah, I mean, things, things that it just can't do very well.
14:37
14:37
James Naish
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James Naish
Can I just push on that because obviously generally there is a challenge on Oda and people would like a subset of society would like to see the amount spent on Oda to be reduced. Yet what you're describing there is potentially Oda being spent on the things that people don't want to do, because you can't monetize them, and it's harder to display the value. So how do we reconcile those two things? Because surely if we spend money on the stuff that no one else wants to fund, people are increasingly going to say, well, why is Oda being spent on this? And actually that pushes us towards the end of aid altogether.
14:38
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I mean, I'm not I don't want to push back too much. I'm not sure that some of these things, which private funding won't always invest in or can't invest in early, are things that people don't necessarily care about. I mean, I think, you know, we have to, you know, see the sort of humanitarian mission as a key driver of Oda. And I think the British people do have those values and they can be promoted.
But but equally, I mean, to take it to a sort of more tangible thing, you know, with forests, you can I know it's a bit of a niche example, but, you know, you can monetize the carbon. You might even be able to monetize the sort of biodiversity credits associated. But what you won't get is all of monetize all of the ways in which a local indigenous people or whatever value it. And I don't, you know, that's not something it doesn't mean it doesn't matter or it's not important.
You know, it's, we need to. And so, so you need that collaboration between universities, NGOs and, and the private sector to ensure you can, you can work out ways to sort of attend to all of those values, I think. Yeah, yeah.
But but equally, I mean, to take it to a sort of more tangible thing, you know, with forests, you can I know it's a bit of a niche example, but, you know, you can monetize the carbon. You might even be able to monetize the sort of biodiversity credits associated. But what you won't get is all of monetize all of the ways in which a local indigenous people or whatever value it. And I don't, you know, that's not something it doesn't mean it doesn't matter or it's not important.
You know, it's, we need to. And so, so you need that collaboration between universities, NGOs and, and the private sector to ensure you can, you can work out ways to sort of attend to all of those values, I think. Yeah, yeah.
14:39
James Naish
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James Naish
14:39
14:40
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14:40
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
just gonna make a related point is, I do think it's much more highly leveraged to be providing expertise and research that helps them to design better systems for mental health, etc., than to be providing services, right? That, that there's a lot, you know, so even if we focus on certain things as priorities, thinking about how we can invest in them in the most leveraged way possible and exploiting the UK's strengths, I think is very is very important. And I think that's why there's quite a broad case for research partnerships as being an important part of that.
14:40
Sarah Champion
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Sarah Champion
Jonathan, the whole time you've been speaking, I've been wondering if you have a relationship with BII, the UK's development finance institution, because all of the areas you've been touching on, one would assume would be in synergy with their programming or helping them develop. I mean, particularly when you're talking about the gender focused lens that you bring to things. So could could you speak a little about that relationship?
14:41
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah, we, we, we have a lot of interaction with BII, but we have no formal relationship. One of our important connections is a member of our steering group. Chris Woodruff is a Non-exec director of BII, and he was brought in to BII by DfID. Now Fcdo really to bring more of a research angle into their things because I think historically CDC was very focused and that's the culture is deals. And I think Leslie messed up.
The new CEO, I think has has been creating a new vision and building on his predecessors, and which I think there are, you know, strategic considerations which are becoming very important driving what they do. But but they still have quite a different culture from, from what we do in terms of research partnerships. That said, we do overlap with them, you know, in a number of situations. So we overlap with them in Sierra Leone, which is a priority country for them.
And so we have had some discussions there. We're having some discussions mainly through Chris, about doing work that's complementary around renewables and the grid, because they're doing some quite exciting things around grid works and so forth. So I think we're looking for opportunities because we do think that there's the potential to be collaborating more, but we also need to be a little bit careful in terms of we have slightly separate areas of focus. So we want to preserve that.
The new CEO, I think has has been creating a new vision and building on his predecessors, and which I think there are, you know, strategic considerations which are becoming very important driving what they do. But but they still have quite a different culture from, from what we do in terms of research partnerships. That said, we do overlap with them, you know, in a number of situations. So we overlap with them in Sierra Leone, which is a priority country for them.
And so we have had some discussions there. We're having some discussions mainly through Chris, about doing work that's complementary around renewables and the grid, because they're doing some quite exciting things around grid works and so forth. So I think we're looking for opportunities because we do think that there's the potential to be collaborating more, but we also need to be a little bit careful in terms of we have slightly separate areas of focus. So we want to preserve that.
14:42
14:42
David Mundell
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David Mundell
Yeah. Liz, can we just come back to the sort of issue that I was raising before, just another element of it and just what you see the balance in terms of providing opportunities through through the Commonwealth scholarships and other such arrangements between the benefit that the individual gets compared to actually delivering what might be our a international the UK's international development a objectives.
14:43
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah. So the I mean, I think for the benefit I think for the individuals are that they they tap into that scientific excellence that we have on offer in the UK and, and all that associated sort of environment with that. So that that culture around research, the infrastructure around research, the values. ET cetera. And they join into, into programmes that have components of them with a particular lens on lmic challenges, or they undertake specific PhD projects that are very much aligned to, to their future ambitions for going back home.
So they take all of that then back to their home countries during the during the scholarships, they have the opportunity to network. So network as a group of scholars, but also individual if their master's programme, master's students on programmes, there are often networking opportunities. And within those programmes. And they're obviously then networking opportunities when they undertake PhD study and then they. So they take those those connections back home with them, and then they can then leverage those.
And quite often these these scholars then end up in very influential positions back home. So in business or in government or, you know, other leadership positions. And so they're able to then implement change for, for good in their country.
So they take all of that then back to their home countries during the during the scholarships, they have the opportunity to network. So network as a group of scholars, but also individual if their master's programme, master's students on programmes, there are often networking opportunities. And within those programmes. And they're obviously then networking opportunities when they undertake PhD study and then they. So they take those those connections back home with them, and then they can then leverage those.
And quite often these these scholars then end up in very influential positions back home. So in business or in government or, you know, other leadership positions. And so they're able to then implement change for, for good in their country.
14:44
David Mundell
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David Mundell
I mean, I think the response to my previous question, you said you would provide us with some sort of data on the people who stayed and or people who maybe left, but is there any way of measuring impact in the sense of I mean, I think we've probably all met, Scott, at your scholars when we visited a, you know, visited countries in receipt of of Oda who are who are playing a significant role in their country. But is there is is there any way of gauging the overall impact?
14:45
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes, I do, I mean to say so. The. So I think both, both Evening and Commonwealth Scholarship Commission, we do capture that information. So we monitor via British embassies and high Commission networks. Certainly for the Commonwealth Scholarship Commission, we run we run an evaluation and monitoring programme and we produce reports associated with that. So there's a report in July around the skills of the alumni and their enduring networks, for example.
And I can share these reports, if that would help. In March, there was an economic review that talked about then the multiplier effect. And then we produce analytical briefs as well around that soft power influence that they've had. And there was one this year, particularly around unlocking graduate potential, I think that was produced in April and around entrepreneurship and their activities also that that we undertake to also help have that influence. So one thing I do want to flag is the Commonwealth entrepreneurial start up fellowships that we have, and that's equipping then early stage founders to really sort of scale their ambition and to increase regional job growth.
And what that means is these scholars, then these fellows, they apply, they join boot camps and coaching sessions. And then central to this is a London Capstone Week event. And this is all hosted by Imperial College London Enterprise Lab. And in that capstone event, these entrepreneur fellows, they pitched a global investors. So and that's an example of where we're really helping them enable that impact in country. But I can certainly get you some the you know, those reports, if that would help.
And I can share these reports, if that would help. In March, there was an economic review that talked about then the multiplier effect. And then we produce analytical briefs as well around that soft power influence that they've had. And there was one this year, particularly around unlocking graduate potential, I think that was produced in April and around entrepreneurship and their activities also that that we undertake to also help have that influence. So one thing I do want to flag is the Commonwealth entrepreneurial start up fellowships that we have, and that's equipping then early stage founders to really sort of scale their ambition and to increase regional job growth.
And what that means is these scholars, then these fellows, they apply, they join boot camps and coaching sessions. And then central to this is a London Capstone Week event. And this is all hosted by Imperial College London Enterprise Lab. And in that capstone event, these entrepreneur fellows, they pitched a global investors. So and that's an example of where we're really helping them enable that impact in country. But I can certainly get you some the you know, those reports, if that would help.
14:47
David Mundell
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David Mundell
I think following up from what James was saying, I think it is important because your evidence based a response is, is really the order of the the day now. So in in that environment, Jonathan, if the case could be made to increase a Oder a for funding scholarships, how could your organisation benefit from that?
14:47
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Well, I think we're very keen to see support for research talent in developing countries, because I think we know that good policy benefits from having a strong research policy ecosystem in the country, and that in turn requires a flow of, of, of talented new researchers. So people research talent is probably pretty equally distributed around the world. It's just some people have a chance to develop it and some people don't. And so I think if the resources and support was there to help more people in, in Lmics to develop their research talent, then that would lead to stronger ecosystems and better policy.
14:48
14:48
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
You think? Well, we yeah. I mean, this is I mean, it is that gender balance is one of our KPIs for the Commonwealth Scholarship Commission. And for most programs, actually, it's looking okay. Once we get to the selection phase, I think there's probably more that we can do, sort of, you know, reaching, reaching into countries where, you know, the women don't have, don't have that voice or that access to education.
Yeah.
Yeah.
14:49
David Mundell
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David Mundell
14:49
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, there's I mean, there's a visa issue right at the moment for Afghanistan, so that that would need to be sorted. But yes, I think there probably there are. And I think there would be there's probably a challenge in accessing those those women. So we would need to think that through in terms of actually how we make sure that those with the greatest capability actually then have have that opportunity.
So it's, it's, yes, it's accessing them. And so it's accessing them and how we actually access them. Yeah.
So it's, it's, yes, it's accessing them. And so it's accessing them and how we actually access them. Yeah.
14:50
14:50
14:50
14:50
14:50
14:50
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14:51
14:51
14:51
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean it's I, I think it, it gives the perception really that we can't be trusted. I think in this international space and to addressing global challenges. I think it's a, it's a huge concern around the perception of the UK. And personally, I find it it's incredibly disappointing when you see the calibre of these scholars and you see the calibre of the applications that we have. And, you know, even though before that, the cut in budget, I mean, there were so many excellent scholars that we can't accept, but to then not be able to provide a certain a certain route or component is it's quite heartbreaking, really.
14:52
14:52
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, we. My, my gut feeling is that they probably don't go somewhere else. They just try to apply again, if there are certain aspects that we're not delivering. So for example, so online masters might be something that we would struggle to deliver with, you know, going forward. Then they would be looking for online provision from elsewhere, I guess. So.
14:52
14:52
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a I mean, it's not just the economic benefit that I talked about at the beginning of, you know, 1.6 versus £1 in. But it's that, you know, we are, you know, our universities in the UK, I mean, they are international universities, they are multicultural. And we benefit from having these students associated with us. And the learning isn't just one way. Yeah. Thank you.
14:53
14:53
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Oh there's a question. That's a good one. I mean I have to sort of refer back a bit to some of the things I was saying earlier in a way that I think, you know, there's been something, you know, a bit particular about Oda funding and it's particularly sort of based on the humanitarian mission and so on. But the Naples new models of research with working with local partners in different way, building the capacity and so on, I think those aspects of it are going to be hard to replace.
By, I mean, you're talking about research partnerships, which don't include a sort of Oda funding component particularly, but those can do quite a lot. But but I think there's the sort of missing catalyst in that, which is which is going to lead to sort of work with less impact in particular. So, so I think it is, you know, the, the Oda piece has not always been the biggest piece in that particular sort of problem solving, but it's often been a very important piece.
It's the piece which creates the partnerships. As others have said, it's the piece that enables us to do the things which, you know, maybe a private sector investor is not willing to fund in because it's not yet sort of reached proof of concept and so on. So, so I, I, you know, I think to some extent, but I think the Oda element brings more greater effectiveness and greater sort of leverage, you know.
By, I mean, you're talking about research partnerships, which don't include a sort of Oda funding component particularly, but those can do quite a lot. But but I think there's the sort of missing catalyst in that, which is which is going to lead to sort of work with less impact in particular. So, so I think it is, you know, the, the Oda piece has not always been the biggest piece in that particular sort of problem solving, but it's often been a very important piece.
It's the piece which creates the partnerships. As others have said, it's the piece that enables us to do the things which, you know, maybe a private sector investor is not willing to fund in because it's not yet sort of reached proof of concept and so on. So, so I, I, you know, I think to some extent, but I think the Oda element brings more greater effectiveness and greater sort of leverage, you know.
14:54
14:55
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think a lot is lost. And I think partly because the centre of gravity and decision making is shifting back to London in terms of what they're going to fund on a short term basis, instead of research partnerships, which puts the locus of decisions in the national government or local stakeholders. So you're much more likely to be fitting their priorities with the latter. But I think there's a set of benefits of long term research partnerships that just don't happen with projects.
That one, it's the better matching of priorities. Two, it's the building of trust that enables more of this research enables uptake, more effective uptake. Three it's the fact that when when governments have long term relationships, they have an incentive to invest in that and build institutional capabilities, making use of that, that input. So we see much more change in terms of institutional setup. So we I've talked about the property tax, but our research led to the foundation of the Ghana Commodity Exchange, which meant for the first time, smallholder farmers can get a market price and see what it is so that they know whether their farm gate price is fair or not.
And in Ethiopia, the government in the mid teens was thinking the major challenge they had was that they needed more skills. We did a series of research projects said no more important is information. Workers are unable to signal their skills credibly to the employer, and the employer isn't able to signal her demand to the worker. So they've now set up a labor management information system, which shares information credibly. So I think those things take time, right? The the property tax example was over eight years.
The Ethiopian tax example was over seven years. The commodity thing was over seven years. And it never would have happened with a single rifle shot. Right. The single rifle shot said, oh, commodity exchange, that's a good idea. And then nothing would have happened, right? Whereas we could then take it all the way through to the most recent phase was the establishment of nano exchanges, because we realized, you know, smallholder farmers can't reach all the way to the big commodity exchange.
So we had to have an intermediate structure, which enabled them to do it. So I think research partnerships, you know, have this scalability and, and sort of leverage that you don't get from other things. You certainly don't get from individual research projects, but you also don't get if you're, if you're buying bed nets, right, it's better to help systems to become stronger and to help service delivery to become more effective, which is something research partnerships can do.
That one, it's the better matching of priorities. Two, it's the building of trust that enables more of this research enables uptake, more effective uptake. Three it's the fact that when when governments have long term relationships, they have an incentive to invest in that and build institutional capabilities, making use of that, that input. So we see much more change in terms of institutional setup. So we I've talked about the property tax, but our research led to the foundation of the Ghana Commodity Exchange, which meant for the first time, smallholder farmers can get a market price and see what it is so that they know whether their farm gate price is fair or not.
And in Ethiopia, the government in the mid teens was thinking the major challenge they had was that they needed more skills. We did a series of research projects said no more important is information. Workers are unable to signal their skills credibly to the employer, and the employer isn't able to signal her demand to the worker. So they've now set up a labor management information system, which shares information credibly. So I think those things take time, right? The the property tax example was over eight years.
The Ethiopian tax example was over seven years. The commodity thing was over seven years. And it never would have happened with a single rifle shot. Right. The single rifle shot said, oh, commodity exchange, that's a good idea. And then nothing would have happened, right? Whereas we could then take it all the way through to the most recent phase was the establishment of nano exchanges, because we realized, you know, smallholder farmers can't reach all the way to the big commodity exchange.
So we had to have an intermediate structure, which enabled them to do it. So I think research partnerships, you know, have this scalability and, and sort of leverage that you don't get from other things. You certainly don't get from individual research projects, but you also don't get if you're, if you're buying bed nets, right, it's better to help systems to become stronger and to help service delivery to become more effective, which is something research partnerships can do.
14:57
James Naish
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James Naish
I was just thinking, as you were describing, that this isn't actually the question, but obviously the Fcdo is moving towards communities of expertise. How do you see that working from a research perspective? Like what would you what would you like the future world to look like when it comes to sort of higher education? How might that concept work, do you think? In practice?
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think there's a lot of sense in it, in the sense that, you know, you invest in an idea once and it can give benefits over and over and over and over and over, right? So expertise is really an important part of our should be an important part of our development strategy. I'm worried about a couple of things. One is how you manage short term demands from governments versus longer term things. So there, you know, there will be a pressure in the communities of expertise towards short term consultancy responses.
Now, there's a role for that. But that risk squeezing out the benefits of of research because consultancy uses existing templates for the most part. Right. I know that problem. I've solved it elsewhere. I'll bring my spreadsheet or whatever, and I'll offer a solution there. And that can be valuable. But so often what research does is two things. It gives the providers and often policymakers a different way of thinking about the problem, right? And we're offering that not caring whether they buy our services again, right? Whereas a consulting firm wants to have their contract renewed.
So we can say, we think you're completely wrong, as we did on labour supply, right? In that market, your policy is headed in the wrong direction. You need to be doing this. Whereas, you know, I think too often consultancy is incremental. So you're doing this, you could do it a bit more efficiently by doing this. So what I'm worried about, and we have this in the community of expertise that we're linked to , is we're separately funded to give us a longer term of funding, even though it's not nearly as long term as it used to be.
But, but but the community of expertise, you know, I think we're going to we're going to have to be careful that it doesn't become too short term and consultancy driven, and then we lose the UK value, right. I mean, UK has some good consulting firms, of course has excellent consulting firms. But but it has real value in research. And I think that there's a risk that that gets lost in the community of expertise. So we just have to be careful.
Now, there's a role for that. But that risk squeezing out the benefits of of research because consultancy uses existing templates for the most part. Right. I know that problem. I've solved it elsewhere. I'll bring my spreadsheet or whatever, and I'll offer a solution there. And that can be valuable. But so often what research does is two things. It gives the providers and often policymakers a different way of thinking about the problem, right? And we're offering that not caring whether they buy our services again, right? Whereas a consulting firm wants to have their contract renewed.
So we can say, we think you're completely wrong, as we did on labour supply, right? In that market, your policy is headed in the wrong direction. You need to be doing this. Whereas, you know, I think too often consultancy is incremental. So you're doing this, you could do it a bit more efficiently by doing this. So what I'm worried about, and we have this in the community of expertise that we're linked to , is we're separately funded to give us a longer term of funding, even though it's not nearly as long term as it used to be.
But, but but the community of expertise, you know, I think we're going to we're going to have to be careful that it doesn't become too short term and consultancy driven, and then we lose the UK value, right. I mean, UK has some good consulting firms, of course has excellent consulting firms. But but it has real value in research. And I think that there's a risk that that gets lost in the community of expertise. So we just have to be careful.
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James Naish
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James Naish
Thanks. Returning back to the questions, Liz, specifically to you around the Fleming Fund. So obviously that has historically built surveillance laboratory workforce capacity across multiple countries and it is closed. So what what is the or closing what what's the impact on global and UK health security from your perspective?
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes. So, so yes, my understanding is there isn't to be a phase three. So I can talk very much around sort of our, our network of over 70 fellows in Malawi, Uganda, Kenya, Zambia, working on to try to reduce the inappropriate use of antibiotics in humans, animals and impact on the environment. And this is absolutely central to control the rise of antimicrobial resistance, or Amr. And Amr is a global challenge.
Okay. So that's really important. So when we're talking about then losing that connectivity that we had within that between the universities in the UK with practitioners in countries of local governments, healthcare providers and higher education institutions in the countries when you, when you break that, that network and that connectivity, we've got a problem that we are actually then threatening us as well as, you know, lmic countries. So what we're seeing is then the, the threat to dissolving the support for that key surveillance infrastructure around that, that data, it's going to absolutely disrupt that flow of expertise between universities, practitioners and governments, particularly on, on that Amr project in eastern and southern Africa.
And so we're not then going to be connecting sort of, you know, clinicians and communities and policy makers. It's going to reduce opportunities for industry partners and stakeholders, and there's going to be reputational damage as well. So I think, as I said earlier, so the UK will probably be seen as an unreliable partner for large challenges. So there's a risk there. We can't replicate this through individual projects. So we need that kind of funding for that network.
And I can only reiterate, I mean Amr, it's a pandemic and it's going to affect us.
Okay. So that's really important. So when we're talking about then losing that connectivity that we had within that between the universities in the UK with practitioners in countries of local governments, healthcare providers and higher education institutions in the countries when you, when you break that, that network and that connectivity, we've got a problem that we are actually then threatening us as well as, you know, lmic countries. So what we're seeing is then the, the threat to dissolving the support for that key surveillance infrastructure around that, that data, it's going to absolutely disrupt that flow of expertise between universities, practitioners and governments, particularly on, on that Amr project in eastern and southern Africa.
And so we're not then going to be connecting sort of, you know, clinicians and communities and policy makers. It's going to reduce opportunities for industry partners and stakeholders, and there's going to be reputational damage as well. So I think, as I said earlier, so the UK will probably be seen as an unreliable partner for large challenges. So there's a risk there. We can't replicate this through individual projects. So we need that kind of funding for that network.
And I can only reiterate, I mean Amr, it's a pandemic and it's going to affect us.
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Sarah Champion
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Sarah Champion
Is we had two ministers in front of us about this, one from health and one from Fcdo. And their basic argument was it was a time limited project. It's got the research that it needed so we can close it. And I don't know how we were meant to move on from it, but it's not really our problem anymore. Is that an accurate assessment? I
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
don't think the challenge has actually gone away, has it? I mean, you know, Amr actually has become even more of a problem. It was more it's really more my understanding is it's really more around that having that action plan and enacting that action plan now and ensuring that that network actually is able to then function and to provide that data that we need for surveillance. So the problem has not gone away. The research hasn't.
We might have that greater research knowledge, but that implementation still needs to happen and to continue to happen.
We might have that greater research knowledge, but that implementation still needs to happen and to continue to happen.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
funding, things like this. What's your perspective on it? I think it's short sighted. Yeah, I think it's short sighted. I mean, I, we face global. challenges and the clue is in the title. Yeah. They are global and that impacts us. So I think it's very short. sighted to, to cut or cut off this funding. And we are at risk of almost sort of no backing ourselves .
As a
As a
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James Naish
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James Naish
So I guess just to summarize, if we assume two things are true and maybe some colleagues would question whether the government is really committed to these two things, but one, global research impact. We want to see the UK be strong at that and be a research leader. But two, we also want to deliver. developmental impact across the world. If those two things are true. What do you what changes do you think that the government needs to make.
specifically to Oda funded. research to make that achievable over . The coming
specifically to Oda funded. research to make that achievable over . The coming
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James Naish
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James Naish
Like to see? Sorry, what was the first of the two? So if we assume that the UK wants to be a global research leader. Okay. Yeah. But also we want to deliver. developmental benefit through that. What are the changes to Oda that you would like to see the government being . actively considering over the coming months?
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
All three of you. All three of you, I think to finish. I'll start with you, Adrian. I mean, I can kick off a little bit. I mean, I think one of the things we can do better at is. identifying these sort of big problems. I mean, like the one we've just been. discussing and, and bringing about what the International Science Council call it , mission science.
But it's about developing flipping things in a way rather than science being sort of saying, here's the problem we.
But it's about developing flipping things in a way rather than science being sort of saying, here's the problem we.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
know, this is the particular problem that we have to face or this is the context. specifics of this problem. So if we're breeding new varieties of wheat, not to start from, you know, what people think would be a good variety in the lab, but to really. understand the trait. preferences of local people, to understand the, the seed systems, that's going to have to run through to. understand the. extension services within a particular country.
And that's what I work in, sort of Ethiopia and Egypt and so on. Does now a sort of more demand led.
And that's what I work in, sort of Ethiopia and Egypt and so on. Does now a sort of more demand led.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
But which also is quite nimble in how it. uses what is going to be limited Oda funding for, for some particular problems, it might be needed for that sort of pure research at the start. Maybe that's the advantage. You know, with an orphan crop like grass peas that we work on in Ethiopia, we're not going to get private funding for that. So maybe the public funding is needed for that. But for other big problems, it might be that that sort of Oda catalyst role can can occur sort of later in the sort of.
translation and ensuring that UK expertise is. represented in expert panels at a high level in the health . Sector, in the
translation and ensuring that UK expertise is. represented in expert panels at a high level in the health . Sector, in the
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
climate sector and so on. Thank you. Yeah. So I think I'll come back to what I said about, you know, we're facing global. challenges and we all face those global challenges. Some are going to be more. vulnerable to those than others. But to me, it's a sort of shift as we move forward. It's almost sort of shifting that narrative to or the perception that this isn't about us helping you.
This is about us working in partnership. And I think going forward, that's the lens of which we need to adopt. And what that that means then is, you know, building.
This is about us working in partnership. And I think going forward, that's the lens of which we need to adopt. And what that that means then is, you know, building.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
by the challenges and we work in partnership with those. Jonathan picking up a lot. I think what Liz said and Adrian as well, I think I guess what I would add is I think there needs to be a stronger focus on impact to ensure that the research is, is well targeted on, on where it could make a difference.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
I think there's more could be done there. And, and, and I think that could be run across, you know, programmes within programmes as well as sort of across programmes. But anyway, but I just think a stronger focus on impact, I think will be helpful. And we can think of different ways to do that. I think local local ownership and localisation in the sense of of setting the agenda is very important, I think, for this to be effective.
And I agree, the multi-year thing, you know, all the examples I gave were multi-year examples. There's very little that can be done within short horizons that's genuinely useful. And especially that's going to introduce institutional change. And then the final thing is we do need to strike a balance between the sort of local knowledge production and the benefits of world class research from the UK and elsewhere. So I think, you know, when we think about.
And I agree, the multi-year thing, you know, all the examples I gave were multi-year examples. There's very little that can be done within short horizons that's genuinely useful. And especially that's going to introduce institutional change. And then the final thing is we do need to strike a balance between the sort of local knowledge production and the benefits of world class research from the UK and elsewhere. So I think, you know, when we think about.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Let's not think about it just as where the researchers are based, but let's think about who's owning the process, who's directing, who's setting the agenda. That's important for localisation. But let's also, you know, welcome. collaborations in a way that can bring the benefits of world class research in the UK to, to these, these research. collaborations and the kind of. co-creation process,
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
I would like a much stronger link in please. Thank you Jonathan. I think we'd welcome stronger links. I think we do have we work given our focus with the chief. economist and and especially with people within the growth part of the Rad, the new research analysis division. So we do feel like we have the the possibilities of conversations there. But I think in partly it may be just all the reshuffling they've had to .
Do over the
Do over the
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Sarah Champion
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Sarah Champion
Have direct lines with your. university . , academics, vice chancellors. And when we come back to our country, there doesn't seem to be a door for you to walk through. So that's probably something that we'll be raising. Thank you all very much for your time. Order, order. We're going to suspend the session while we get the next . Panel
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Rankings for the 10th year running. Is that in the UK or in the UK? It's the. international for Development Studies, together with the University of Sussex for the 10th year running. So we have a long standing. reputation in. development work. And we are a bunch of about 200 staff, of which about more than half are researchers. And we work in. interdisciplinary teams. We're not.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Harry, who are you? Thank you very much. Good to be with colleagues. So I'm Harry Anderson, I'm deputy. director at an organisation called universities UK international. So we are a membership body representative body. So we have. 142 UK universities, including Sussex, and all of the universities that you've just been hearing from. So those are, you know, large research intensive, small specialist universities and sort of everything in between .
The the team that I'm very fortunate to lead covers our policy and global engagement work. So that's international focused. The reason that team exists is because UK higher education is highly international, both in its composition and its outlook. I think our. universities are recognised right around the world for the quality they produce. Graduates whose. skills and. qualifications are recognised by employers, both in the UK but.
internationally by. governments and by professional bodies. As we've just been hearing, our. universities lead on global on research to solve global challenges. And so we are kind of highly international. I think that leads me on to probably one of the key things I would . Probably
The the team that I'm very fortunate to lead covers our policy and global engagement work. So that's international focused. The reason that team exists is because UK higher education is highly international, both in its composition and its outlook. I think our. universities are recognised right around the world for the quality they produce. Graduates whose. skills and. qualifications are recognised by employers, both in the UK but.
internationally by. governments and by professional bodies. As we've just been hearing, our. universities lead on global on research to solve global challenges. And so we are kind of highly international. I think that leads me on to probably one of the key things I would . Probably
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
during this session, which is that or maybe it will come out in the questions. It will is three points very briefly. One is the fact that I think universities ought to be viewed as kind of key critical development infrastructure around the world. Secondly is that I think that, you know. obviously investing in development is, is kind of supporting countries around the world, but it's actually enlightened self-interest in the soft power that that benefit benefits to the UK.
And I also think that given what we've just been hearing about in terms of. scarcity and cuts, we need a bit more of a clearer strategy that focuses on longer term development and how we can focus the work that .
And I also think that given what we've just been hearing about in terms of. scarcity and cuts, we need a bit more of a clearer strategy that focuses on longer term development and how we can focus the work that .
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Sarah Champion
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Sarah Champion
Universities do with the funding that is available, but I will leave it there. Thank you. I know you sort of touched on it in your opening and Harry's expanded on it, but I wonder if you could give some thoughts and reflections on how the government can. balance the. objective of growing UK education. exports with.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
In the UK obviously are. attractive places to get this education. But in many places, such as my own country, India, there's not enough. opportunities to do that. And so having this. export out there in their own. locations with the expertise that we bring, would be very, very important. I think there is a huge, huge. opportunity there in many places and many places already doing this kind of thing, and more could be done in that field.
We ourselves at the moment are not doing it. DS doesn't do transnational education. Maybe you have more of an understanding of that, but it seems to me that there's a huge. opportunity there that could be taken up, and it also feeds very well into the international development agenda, because this would be strengthening.
We ourselves at the moment are not doing it. DS doesn't do transnational education. Maybe you have more of an understanding of that, but it seems to me that there's a huge. opportunity there that could be taken up, and it also feeds very well into the international development agenda, because this would be strengthening.
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Sarah Champion
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Sarah Champion
staying in their own countries because they're already there, they're not going to move abroad. But then I'm not sure if you heard in the first session, my colleague David Mundell raised about people getting the the skills and opportunities and then using it to further their own career and leaving their country. I mean, we see it, particularly when it comes . To
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
There's huge unemployment. You've been watching the news, huge employment, unemployment crisis, and youth are out on the streets demanding all kinds of things. And, you know, unless those opportunities are created there and, you know, education through exporting some of our skills in. robustness and credibility of the quality systems that we have, we won't be able to solve that kind of problem. So I think there is an. opportunity there.
It has to be done very carefully because UK .
It has to be done very carefully because UK .
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Which was known as the Strategic Partnerships for Higher Education Innovation and Reform Programme. And there was a that programme was reviewed and I think was sort of seen to have met a number of his objectives about supporting kind of development around the world. I think there's probably a couple of examples that are helpful to draw from that. So firstly, I think in.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Looking to support sort of the skills development locally. And then a number of universities who weren't even involved in that partnership ended up following that model because they recognised it. It worked and it was successful. So again, that's kind of you could then remove the UK support. And actually that's kind of long term. sustainable support in country. I think, again, there was an example in Sierra Leone where I think a couple of examples from from that project actually, one was where a institution was able to get university status by actually looking at reviewing modules and accreditation and making sure that it was at the sort of sufficient level and standard that was required for, for university status in that country working with the regulator.
And again, that then creates the infrastructure locally that is able to support final example, I think is about, again, within Sierra Leone was. around working with the local regulators and professional accreditation bodies to actually essentially. redesign some of the sort of quality assurance mechanisms. So again, the rest of the sector within country can actually meet certain standards. So I think that is often when we're talking about T and E, one of the big drivers from other governments as to why they want to see UK support, but it could be Australian support.
Other countries also that do Tierney. But that is why they often are looking to partner with UK. It's because of the sort of reputation and quality of our. academics and our. institutions that can help increase that.
And again, that then creates the infrastructure locally that is able to support final example, I think is about, again, within Sierra Leone was. around working with the local regulators and professional accreditation bodies to actually essentially. redesign some of the sort of quality assurance mechanisms. So again, the rest of the sector within country can actually meet certain standards. So I think that is often when we're talking about T and E, one of the big drivers from other governments as to why they want to see UK support, but it could be Australian support.
Other countries also that do Tierney. But that is why they often are looking to partner with UK. It's because of the sort of reputation and quality of our. academics and our. institutions that can help increase that.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
I think, you know, India has been a there's been a huge focus on India recently. My understanding is when the Prime minister, the previous prime minister, led the trade mission to India, it was the Indian government who were pushing for UK universities to be involved in that mission. And I think we sent about 14. I think, vice chancellors in total. And actually that was that was again, that's driven by the Indian side rather than the UK side or by necessarily UK universities.
So I think there is a huge opportunity there. You could look at many other countries. Indonesia recently came. The Premier came over to the UK again, looking to see UK universities help set up local support.
So I think there is a huge opportunity there. You could look at many other countries. Indonesia recently came. The Premier came over to the UK again, looking to see UK universities help set up local support.
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David Mundell
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David Mundell
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
maybe Harry first and then you. Anu, I think the first thing to say is that we would welcome a successor program. Really, I think I think my understanding was that there was a move towards a sort of possible successor program, focusing more specifically on female education participation. We had a number of conversations with Fcdo regarding that scheme. I think there is huge appetite and demand from our. universities to to be involved in a successor scheme, but at present I .
Don't
Don't
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
going to be taken forward. Do you know what the budget of the first iteration was? I not off the top of my head, but we could definitely get that. Thank you. I think, you know, the I think colleagues heard it from the first panel, but the things that would make it. successful is the fact that it needs a sort of longer term funding envelope. It needs kind of clear.
prioritisation and sort of focus in terms of what it's doing. And I think then that allows our members, the UK universities, to work with local partners to rebuild. The trust, I think has kind of been undermined by by the kind . Of
prioritisation and sort of focus in terms of what it's doing. And I think then that allows our members, the UK universities, to work with local partners to rebuild. The trust, I think has kind of been undermined by by the kind . Of
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
But we thought that the Global Challenges Fund was really important. And several of our researchers have been involved in some of those. So any successor, like Harry said, would be really, really welcome. I think what I wanted to also submit is that there are other ways of doing things, these things in relation to.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Course that was delivered jointly by IDs and the partnership for social, African Social and Governance. Research that was set up as a way of improving capacity for. research in Africa because it was. considered not as strong as you would like to have it be, and it was designed primarily for mid-career. researchers to try and get them. And what's happened since then? The first few.
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David Mundell
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David Mundell
of how this can be made to go forward. Can I just ask you about whether, amongst UK universities there's been any contraction of a international partnerships? Because, for example, when we were in Nigeria, we were hearing about partnership with the University of Dundee. Now, very unfortunately, the University of Dundee has run into very serious financial issues. And I think we're all aware of other universities running into into financial issues.
Has that led to a withdrawal from some of some of these international . Activities that
Has that led to a withdrawal from some of some of these international . Activities that
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
they would they would previously have pursued? I think the short answer is yes. You know, I think that as you allude to, we are a sector, I think, facing quite an acute financial crisis, and that actually a number of these partnerships have had to, particularly when the sort of government funding is withdrawn. These are partnerships that can't be sustained through higher education funding alone. I think actually, increasingly you're seeing that on the domestic side, too, in terms of, you know, a much.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
And many of them have been in the past coming from the countries that have been. experiencing visa breaks now, Myanmar, Afghanistan, for example. And this really affects the the kind of. development goals as well that we have. For example, if you stop women from. Afghanistan that came up in the earlier.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
In a sense, our other development goals. I would completely endorse what has just been said. I think the like we've been discussing already, I think the impact was actually sort of as the the perception of the UK as a sort of a trusted partner when it comes to sort of global development efforts, because we are essentially just sort of shutting the door. I think the, you know, we are acutely aware that the government has legitimate concerns when it comes to overall immigration.
I think successive governments have been elected on promises to reduce net migration, and that there are kind of concerns around asylum and related issues. I think the challenge we have is that actually where immigration policy, you know, often cuts across wider government objectives, and I think the development and global development. objectives with the visa ban are quite acute. I think the, you know, the Home Office will always probably think that they only have a blunt mechanism.
And so it had to be a visa break. I don't personally see a way why they couldn't have. exempted certain students like Chevening scholarship students or others. And I think that is kind of where that policy has been most harmful and most impactful. I think if there had been a. conversation earlier on to recognise and to flag that this was going to be an obvious this could be an easy exemption. I think that would have been incredibly welcome and done a lot to actually help preserve some of the UK's reputation.
I think the only other comment I would maybe make is obviously the visa break impacts students coming looking to come to the UK. One of the things that, you know, I'm been incredibly pleased to see is that actually UK universities are looking to try and step up and support those students who have been impacted by the essentially the ban. And so there's a charity called mosaic who are looking to sort of set up essentially sort of part funded scholarships with UK universities to enable those students who aren't able to physically travel to study via online or distance learning, or in another sort of campus, a branch campus of the UK around the world, just so that they aren't denied the opportunity.
I think successive governments have been elected on promises to reduce net migration, and that there are kind of concerns around asylum and related issues. I think the challenge we have is that actually where immigration policy, you know, often cuts across wider government objectives, and I think the development and global development. objectives with the visa ban are quite acute. I think the, you know, the Home Office will always probably think that they only have a blunt mechanism.
And so it had to be a visa break. I don't personally see a way why they couldn't have. exempted certain students like Chevening scholarship students or others. And I think that is kind of where that policy has been most harmful and most impactful. I think if there had been a. conversation earlier on to recognise and to flag that this was going to be an obvious this could be an easy exemption. I think that would have been incredibly welcome and done a lot to actually help preserve some of the UK's reputation.
I think the only other comment I would maybe make is obviously the visa break impacts students coming looking to come to the UK. One of the things that, you know, I'm been incredibly pleased to see is that actually UK universities are looking to try and step up and support those students who have been impacted by the essentially the ban. And so there's a charity called mosaic who are looking to sort of set up essentially sort of part funded scholarships with UK universities to enable those students who aren't able to physically travel to study via online or distance learning, or in another sort of campus, a branch campus of the UK around the world, just so that they aren't denied the opportunity.
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Monica Harding
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Monica Harding
is a very recent thing, I think, since the. Yeah, absolutely. I read an article in The New. Humanitarian about Sudan students that can't come to the UK. They can't go to the US and they can't go to the to Australia anymore. So the quote is, you know, the only place has left is the moon. But actually my question is actually more serious than that. Are there other countries they will therefore go to rather than .
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
You know, Western countries? I mean, as everyone knows, the US is not an attractive. destination either for for students from some of the countries under this UK visa ban, I think Australia is getting stricter, as far as I can tell. And, you know, although Europe is still offering scholarships and they could go, there are language issues often there that prevent people from going. So I mean, I think we we as UK are an attractive.
destination and we should be attracting these, particularly the shivling scholars. They've been vetted, they've, you know, proven themselves through multiple interview processes. If they were given an exemption, that would have been. fantastic that, you know, and it's not just they who benefit people who are already here. Other students benefit from their experiences. And it creates this what we were talking about earlier, the soft power, a network of individuals across the globe, particularly from these very.
conflict driven countries where soft power becomes even more. important later on when, you know, these people become powerful, take up positions of power, and you want to do, you know. negotiate or network around other issues that are critical or solve global challenges which require collective action. This is the power that's going to be useful.
destination and we should be attracting these, particularly the shivling scholars. They've been vetted, they've, you know, proven themselves through multiple interview processes. If they were given an exemption, that would have been. fantastic that, you know, and it's not just they who benefit people who are already here. Other students benefit from their experiences. And it creates this what we were talking about earlier, the soft power, a network of individuals across the globe, particularly from these very.
conflict driven countries where soft power becomes even more. important later on when, you know, these people become powerful, take up positions of power, and you want to do, you know. negotiate or network around other issues that are critical or solve global challenges which require collective action. This is the power that's going to be useful.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
funded scholarships for your. organization then? I mean, just from from a you know, we're a membership body, so there wouldn't be a sort of tangible benefit for us as an organization. But our members, I think would obviously benefit massively from from if there was additional Oda scholarships that were available. I think a number of universities will often match fund or support through other, you know, if funding was made available anyway. So I think it would just increase the number of students who would be able to sort of .
Come to the
Come to the
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Most of our students are from the Global South, so if student scholarships were improved or increased, that would mean that our numbers would go up. We would be able to offer more support. And what we are unique in is that we bring our. research directly into the classroom because we are such a research intensive institution. So I think, I mean. incorporating our students right from the. classroom into research projects and then having them take this, you know, education back to their countries would be a .
huge, huge benefit overall. Pardon? Why? Because we think that we. inculcate sort of UK. values and approaches to. development that are. important in the current climate. So looking at global.
huge, huge benefit overall. Pardon? Why? Because we think that we. inculcate sort of UK. values and approaches to. development that are. important in the current climate. So looking at global.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Looking at public goods as being important, not taking on just a sort of very. privatized agenda, things like that. Although growth is important, of course, we are not denying that and finding innovative ways to do that. I think it would be really important. The other thing I think there's benefit to the UK as well. So for.
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Tracy Gilbert
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Tracy Gilbert
From their situations to the UK. Thank you Tracy. Thanks, chair. A similar question to I asked earlier to the first panel. So higher education. institutions are increasingly looking to the private. sector for. investment to fill the gaps created by reduction in odor. What do you think are the risks and relying on private capital for developing research, particularly where there are .
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
But the need is high. I think if I might start, the earlier panel did. respond in very strong terms that there are possibilities. There are good. opportunities in certain areas. In particular, I think private capital is. essential because government capital will not be able to fund everything that's needed. But in other places, there are areas where the private capital is not going to step up.
And regulation is one important.
And regulation is one important.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
was pointed out earlier as well. I think funding. dependencies on private capital should be also looked at a bit carefully. There's a risk there and. unequal investment in certain areas versus others. We've seen this in the health sector, for example. And I think we really need to be. careful that we secure public funding for public. goods that . Are
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
likely to be invested in by the private sector. Yeah. I mean, I think probably would agree with what we've just heard, but also what the previous panel said, I think there is clear clearly a role there. I think the worry would be if private finance and capital was seen to, to sort of as an easy replacement from, from what public and government funding could do. I think the where we've seen it. successful is, you know, the.
catalytic impact it can have in terms of crowding in and unlocking other funding. I think, you know, probably what we would welcome more of is, you know, I think the British Council run a very. successful global. partnerships scheme called Going Global that looks to put up some funding that then ends up sort of allows. institutions in the UK to partner with others around the world to test, you know, models on a small scale and then work out if that's kind of scalable and could be developed.
And I think that's where then private finance could be incredibly helpful. But I think, I think, yeah, it needs to be done within a quite close regulatory framework to ensure that it is sort of focusing on . Those
catalytic impact it can have in terms of crowding in and unlocking other funding. I think, you know, probably what we would welcome more of is, you know, I think the British Council run a very. successful global. partnerships scheme called Going Global that looks to put up some funding that then ends up sort of allows. institutions in the UK to partner with others around the world to test, you know, models on a small scale and then work out if that's kind of scalable and could be developed.
And I think that's where then private finance could be incredibly helpful. But I think, I think, yeah, it needs to be done within a quite close regulatory framework to ensure that it is sort of focusing on . Those
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
you or rather your members like to have seen included? So I think we are very supportive of the international education strategy. I think this is it's been refreshed a number of times, but most recently at the start of this year, which is the first time since the change of government. I think what we would say is that actually , the international education strategy has responded to a lot of the concerns that our members would have in that it is broader in focus.
I think there was a previous.
I think there was a previous.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
were to look at the previous iteration of the strategy, that it was overly focused on export earnings, and actually that was quite problematic when you were going to sort of meet other governments, other universities in other countries because, you know, quite frankly, could look exploitative. What we have seen, therefore, is a a welcome move away from just focusing on export target to actually the broader contribution that international education can make. And I think that.
reflects the breadth of. contributions that universities can make. So there is, you know, it's not just about international student recruitment anymore. It's about international research partnerships. It's about . Tierney, as we've just been hearing about. I think the the. opportunity that we have is the Fcdo has joined as a co-owner of that strategy. Okay. So previously it would would have just depart for education and DBT as was, I think, the fcdo's role in being a co-owner of that strategy, I think, gives a huge opportunity for making sure that there is a greater focus on global development.
I think that is where, as I was saying, to start with, we would always, always encourage government to think of universities as pieces of kind of critical infrastructure of global .
reflects the breadth of. contributions that universities can make. So there is, you know, it's not just about international student recruitment anymore. It's about international research partnerships. It's about . Tierney, as we've just been hearing about. I think the the. opportunity that we have is the Fcdo has joined as a co-owner of that strategy. Okay. So previously it would would have just depart for education and DBT as was, I think, the fcdo's role in being a co-owner of that strategy, I think, gives a huge opportunity for making sure that there is a greater focus on global development.
I think that is where, as I was saying, to start with, we would always, always encourage government to think of universities as pieces of kind of critical infrastructure of global .
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
know, the UK is looking to, you know, talk to other governments around the world, our members will more than likely have a partnership or expertise or support that they could utilise in that sense. So I think there is a real opportunity there. I think the the challenge we face is that, you know, we have seen reductions in the headcount for what was previously Department for Business and Trade in terms of their colleagues based in country.
We still have a fantastic obviously embassy network, British Council, again, fantastic support in country to help with UK universities working, looking to partner with others overseas. But I think that. reduction has been is.
We still have a fantastic obviously embassy network, British Council, again, fantastic support in country to help with UK universities working, looking to partner with others overseas. But I think that. reduction has been is.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
more. strategically as part of our development offer? Yes, I think we've actually this year, I believe, crossed over quite important tipping point and threshold where we now have, I think , based on the the this won't be reflected in our submission because the data only came out very recently. But we've now got to a point where there's almost. 700,000 students at UK based UK students that are studying for UK degree overseas and given visa policy in the UK, we're seeing a decline in the number of international students coming to the UK.
So those two figures have have now crossed over. I think the short answer is that we are seeing a huge renewed. interest from UK. universities in.
So those two figures have have now crossed over. I think the short answer is that we are seeing a huge renewed. interest from UK. universities in.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
I think probably a number of vice. chancellors and senior leaders within. universities looking at Tierney in a far more strategic way. I think the international education strategy therefore helps with that. And I think what we're looking to see is what is often happening is, you know, the breadth of Tierney provision is, is huge. It's not just campuses. Overseas campuses are often what attracts the attention, but they're, I think, less than 1% of all Tierney provision.
I think off the top of my head, there is sort of validated, validated provision, franchise provision, other types of provision. And so I think there is a huge opportunity there for universities to be working with partners overseas to meet the local skills needs, the local development needs of those. institutions in. country to make sure that, you know, the offer is, is kind of responding to, to what is needed locally. So I think that's the opportunity we have is to, you know, that's what I was talking about before, why governments overseas often come to the UK and want our UK universities to help with setting up.
I think off the top of my head, there is sort of validated, validated provision, franchise provision, other types of provision. And so I think there is a huge opportunity there for universities to be working with partners overseas to meet the local skills needs, the local development needs of those. institutions in. country to make sure that, you know, the offer is, is kind of responding to, to what is needed locally. So I think that's the opportunity we have is to, you know, that's what I was talking about before, why governments overseas often come to the UK and want our UK universities to help with setting up.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
much more. closely that we could be doing. I think just one other point to add as well, which I should have mentioned, is I think that actually when you, you know, Tierney. partnerships are incredibly helpful in essentially sort of helping to export UK soft power because often then we will end up, as you know, the UK as UK government, as UK universities, working with overseas government, overseas regulators to. essentially set the parameters and the framework for what that provision looks like in country will often be one of the first kind of.
countries working with that country X to set this provision up. So recent example was Nigeria. I think we, the UK, helped to develop the Tierney guidelines in.
countries working with that country X to set this provision up. So recent example was Nigeria. I think we, the UK, helped to develop the Tierney guidelines in.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Universities as they're thinking about increasing their offer? I think the the key thing we need to stay focused on is I think the UK is in a very privileged position when it comes to, you know, our. reputation when we're talking about other countries and other governments looking to work with the UK. So we need to keep an absolute laser focus on quality and making sure that that all the you know, there's a huge amount, as we alluded to, interest in India at the moment, lots of UK universities setting up provision in India.
I think we need to make sure that the, you know, first few cohorts of those students are happy, successful, go on to to sort of very fulfilling careers. And actually, we make sure that we keep laser focused on the quality of our provision because it's what we have as an . Advantage
I think we need to make sure that the, you know, first few cohorts of those students are happy, successful, go on to to sort of very fulfilling careers. And actually, we make sure that we keep laser focused on the quality of our provision because it's what we have as an . Advantage
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James Naish
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James Naish
No, I think that that that would be the same. So while I've got you here, Harry, I will push you on something that's slightly it's not international development related, but it is very much university related, which is what came up on. the 30th of September around the MI5 warning to. universities with China using a public company to front some of its intelligence operations. What's your perspective on that and what is the link and the risk for.
universities of working overseas or working closely with . Foreign
universities of working overseas or working closely with . Foreign
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
powers? What's the risk back here in the UK, I guess, yes. I mean, I think the first thing to say is universities take their. responsibilities when it comes to national security incredibly seriously. I think this is a topic which has increased in salience and has established itself very much as a board level issue within UK universities. I think if you look at what's happened over recent years. institutions have strengthened due diligence, their risk assessment processes, their research, security processes.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
UK has been instrumental in helping to set up the research collaboration advice team, which is now government, but is there to support universities when they are looking to to sort of set up new partnerships? I think, you know, we are always going to be a target for this because, A the quality of our. institutions and the sort of research that we're producing, the collaborations that we have, but also because of what I said at the start, that we are an.
inherently open and internationally facing sector, and therefore we are kind of always, I think, going to face these challenges. I think the question is, therefore, how we mitigate those challenges, and I think we have had a very constructive and good relationship when it comes to working with government on this. Our cat is one example. We also work with, you know, we had the director general of. MI5 come to our annual conference to address all of our vice chancellors, to highlight that this is a major concern that institutions need to be aware of.
I think that, you know, we work very closely with the national Npsa and other parts of the security services to to make sure that that guidance is being shared amongst academics and universities. So it's not just at the board level, but it's actually cascaded down right through and across institutions. So I think there is, you know, we've made huge progress on this. I think there's always more to be done. I think at the start of this year, we had another meeting with with.
MI5 and the director general, Dan Jarvis, to the security minister, where we have now set up the academic interference reporting rule. So there is a. confidential mechanism through which senior university leaders can report concerns. So I think there's . Always more
inherently open and internationally facing sector, and therefore we are kind of always, I think, going to face these challenges. I think the question is, therefore, how we mitigate those challenges, and I think we have had a very constructive and good relationship when it comes to working with government on this. Our cat is one example. We also work with, you know, we had the director general of. MI5 come to our annual conference to address all of our vice chancellors, to highlight that this is a major concern that institutions need to be aware of.
I think that, you know, we work very closely with the national Npsa and other parts of the security services to to make sure that that guidance is being shared amongst academics and universities. So it's not just at the board level, but it's actually cascaded down right through and across institutions. So I think there is, you know, we've made huge progress on this. I think there's always more to be done. I think at the start of this year, we had another meeting with with.
MI5 and the director general, Dan Jarvis, to the security minister, where we have now set up the academic interference reporting rule. So there is a. confidential mechanism through which senior university leaders can report concerns. So I think there's . Always more
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James Naish
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James Naish
this is an issue that universities take incredibly seriously. I mean, I've got a couple of thousand Hong Kongers in my. constituency in Nottinghamshire, in Rushcliffe, and they've been raising for well, since I was elected, really, the concerns around the Confucius Institutes. Do you have confidence in, as universities UK confidence in universities needing and benefiting from Confucius Institutes, or do you . Think there
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
aspects of policy that that universities do need to review? I think, you know, universities will always keep international partnerships, and whether that's Confucius Institutes or other partnerships under review, I think, you know, we don't my understanding is we don't believe that there is any kind of immediate need to sort of revisit that at this point. I think, you know, there isn't a huge amount more I could probably say on that. But I think, as I say, we recognise the risk given how international we are.
But I don't think . There is
But I don't think . There is
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Sarah Champion
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Sarah Champion
an immediate action that we're looking to take on Confucius Institutes. Harry would be very grateful if you wanted to write to the committee, either in private or public, on that, I. I think you've painted a very good. contemporary position. 30 years ago, there was a mad rush of UK. universities chasing the Chinese renminbi, and I. I think it's well. documented that that has exposed us.
And at the time, China was a middle income country. So we were absolutely delighted to help them with their development needs. If I just give you some context in that, my sort of closest University of Sheffield, Hallam, and the way that. academics were sort of.
And at the time, China was a middle income country. So we were absolutely delighted to help them with their development needs. If I just give you some context in that, my sort of closest University of Sheffield, Hallam, and the way that. academics were sort of.
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Sarah Champion
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Sarah Champion
Was, was quite acute. And the reason probably that you had the meeting at the beginning of the year with the MI5 and the security minister was because we realised that we did have a big gap in our. security because we had such an open profile to Chinese universities. So that's kind of one. And and I think it's it's good that there is now embryonic reporting mechanism for academics that feel uncomfortable.
But I.
But I.
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Sarah Champion
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Sarah Champion
Are you looking for the next sort of risk area? Because 30 years ago, it was absolutely right that we were helping and supporting all of our institutions where I helping and supporting China with its development. But, but but are you as an organisation or our universities looking at where that next potential risk could be and making sure that . Our.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
And, you know, what you could call responsible international partnerships, I think has come a long way in 30 years. But even in five years, actually, I would agree, you know, even if you look at just the expansion of the Atus, the Academic Technology approval scheme, that's actually, you know, that was previously just academics. It's now been expanded to students. I think there is a much greater recognition of the risks here. So about kind of going into these things eyes wide open.
I think, you know, we will always look to support our members with this. I think the, you know, just one observation I would make regarding China is that actually, you know, we've built a higher. education model that is reliant on the income of overseas students. And so as a. government and as a country, I think we really need to ask ourselves a question as to whether that is, you know, wise to fund what we think is a critical piece of national infrastructure in the UK, but also of global development, as we've been talking about through what is the, you know, the income streams of international students.
I think the top point that our chief exec, Vivienne Stern, would always be making is the need to develop a long term sustainable funding model for our universities. I think she has been on record at a parliamentary committee of saying that actually, in the past, international students with a cherry on the top of a cake, and now they're actually the flower that actually underpins the whole operating model. So I think we, you know, we need to.
recognise the overreliance we have and the dependencies that that creates, particularly where institutions do have, say, single market dependencies or two, you know, 2 or 3 . Market.
I think, you know, we will always look to support our members with this. I think the, you know, just one observation I would make regarding China is that actually, you know, we've built a higher. education model that is reliant on the income of overseas students. And so as a. government and as a country, I think we really need to ask ourselves a question as to whether that is, you know, wise to fund what we think is a critical piece of national infrastructure in the UK, but also of global development, as we've been talking about through what is the, you know, the income streams of international students.
I think the top point that our chief exec, Vivienne Stern, would always be making is the need to develop a long term sustainable funding model for our universities. I think she has been on record at a parliamentary committee of saying that actually, in the past, international students with a cherry on the top of a cake, and now they're actually the flower that actually underpins the whole operating model. So I think we, you know, we need to.
recognise the overreliance we have and the dependencies that that creates, particularly where institutions do have, say, single market dependencies or two, you know, 2 or 3 . Market.
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Sarah Champion
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Sarah Champion
Dependencies and support those institutions where possible. And a final question from me. You raised the Afghani woman student who you've now taken on as a PhD, and it's unlikely that she'll be able to return home. Do you put protections is probably too heavy a word, but but support systems in place when you have overseas. students that you know. So maybe they're doing research into Lbgt, LGBT rights, for example, which, you know, will be controversial at home.
Are you minded of that? And would you put protections . In place
Are you minded of that? And would you put protections . In place
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
or would you just not encourage research in that area? Oh, we we do put protections in place. We do research on. LGBTQ rights. We do research on all kinds of gender related issues. So that would be very much part of it. I mean, in the classroom as well as outside, we also very mindful that some of our. students are first generation. learners and we are encouraging. In fact, we are just talking with a couple of countries.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
These are people who are contributing. They are not dependent. And it's really important to keep that in mind as well, that, you know, these are people that have come here to get the best education. They may not be, as in the case of this Afghan woman, able to go home because of the situation there. But they are.
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Sarah Champion
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Sarah Champion
And we should sort of respect that. And I've written down your phrase, Harry, critical infrastructure. And and I think that our universities and research facilities absolutely are that. And I think as a state, we haven't done enough to protect and nurture them. And you have sort of got yourself into a situation where we, for the wrong reasons, recognize how critical you are to us. Thank you both so much for sharing your skills and expertise.
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