Foreign Affairs Committee
Tuesday 3rd November 2026
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10:52
Emily Thornberry
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Emily Thornberry
10:52
10:52
10:52
10:52
10:53
10:53
Emily Thornberry
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Emily Thornberry
Good. Thank you very much. So what I'd like to do is say, as I as I said to the students at the back of the room, we're looking at the situation of Syrian refugees, particularly those living in countries around Syria. And as experts who've been looking at this for some years, I wondered if you could tell us how you feel. The position has changed over the last couple of years, particularly since the fall of of Assad.
Can I begin with Dawn jetty?
Can I begin with Dawn jetty?
10:53
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes, certainly. Perhaps as a preface to those people, the students behind us. Yes. Syria lost, I'm going to say lost about half of its population, 23 million, 6 million across international borders, mainly to Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan, and another 6 million were displaced internally after 2024. I think there was a sense that everybody was going to rush back, but the country was in its. 12, 13 years of armed conflict. Really destroyed the the regime in battling the opposition in the country, pretty much destroyed schools, health clinics, hospitals. These were all targeted. And then neighborhoods, particularly neighborhoods of informal settlements, which I would say these are the very poor elements of the country.
So after December 2024. Some I'm going to say well placed elite, you know, rushed back to see what it was like. But those who were on the borders of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan were very cautious. They do want to return, but the key word is dignity. They want to return in dignity and in safety. And very few of them feel that it's possible yet. I could comment more on that later, but that's just an opening.
Unless you want me to say a little bit more.
So after December 2024. Some I'm going to say well placed elite, you know, rushed back to see what it was like. But those who were on the borders of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan were very cautious. They do want to return, but the key word is dignity. They want to return in dignity and in safety. And very few of them feel that it's possible yet. I could comment more on that later, but that's just an opening.
Unless you want me to say a little bit more.
10:54
10:55
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
No, I think that's a very good description of of the situation. I would be a little bit cautious, though, to say that everyone wants to return. I think after many years of displacement, I think the picture might also be a bit more nuanced, and that it's important to understand how people have developed their lives in exile, even under very, very precarious and difficult conditions, and particularly for young people who might have grown up in the host countries, meaning that return might be a possibility in the future. But as as Professor Chetty said, there is a it might take quite a long time to to prepare for this.
So I think it's important to to keep that in mind when we think about the discussion on return.
So I think it's important to to keep that in mind when we think about the discussion on return.
10:55
10:56
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So what we know is that people who have gone back have had more access to housing and livelihoods. Many of those who have gone back have also reported many difficulties about going back. But those who are sitting on the fence, so to say, many who who would want to go back, they do not have access to housing and livelihoods as the kind of key factors that are holding them back, which makes it very hard if you are responsible for a family to go back at this current time, even though the situation where they are might not be a situation where you can develop your life a lot, but it feels more predictable , even in conditions of war, like in Lebanon, than going back to a situation where you don't know if you can find shelter, where you don't know if you will have livelihood to support your family.
10:57
Emily Thornberry
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Emily Thornberry
We we saw some refugees in in Lebanon, didn't we? And I asked the, the women there were women and said, you know, what are the. Would you would you go home? And they said that they wouldn't until they felt secure and until they felt that there were schools. And it's it really brings home to you just how bad as , as Doctor Shashi was saying, the situation actually is in, in Syria that even the most basics can't really be guaranteed.
10:57
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yes, a security, particularly for women. It seems that security is is a big issue about the return considerations, also about the freedom of women, where people are worried about what their daughters will meet in. In current Syria, education is a different picture or it's a more mixed picture, I think, where.
10:57
10:58
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah. So I think in terms of the situation in northeast Syria, the largest camp of that was all whole were collapsed essentially in chaos in January, February, which had considerable repercussions for for Syrians, for third country nationals, including British citizens and British children. So the that has has led to quite a change in terms of where people have been brought to. So the remaining camp Al-roj still has British citizens in it. The. The. But we have an added concern now that when. When Al-hawl collapsed and when the Panorama prison in particular was was opened, US and US backed forces moved 5700 men to Iraq into prisons in Iraq.
And from a British perspective, it is possible that there may be British citizens and British children who have been moved into prisons in Iraq. Now.
And from a British perspective, it is possible that there may be British citizens and British children who have been moved into prisons in Iraq. Now.
10:59
10:59
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So I get figures from various sources. Very often these sources do not want to be quoted. When they give me these figures, there's clearly there is a there is an issue here, but I think one of the main questions for me, I would love the British Government to to inquire because they have an embassy. We have we have an embassy in Iraq, right. We can we can go. We know which prisons they're in, and we can go and ask whether there are British citizens. Their sentences have been taken by the Iraqis. So I think that finding out whether how many British citizens have been moved to Iraq and in what conditions they're being held aside from those who are still in Syria and in the other camp in Al-roj.
All of these are really important questions. I agree with you.
All of these are really important questions. I agree with you.
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10:59
11:00
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11:00
John Whittingdale
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John Whittingdale
In terms of the refugees in neighboring countries, you've talked about whether or not they want to come home and what might be sort of holding them back, what is the attitude of the Syrian government? Are they actually putting out a message that you are welcome, but we will look after you. We would like you to return. Or do they perhaps.
11:01
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Oh, well, that was a fact. Right. And so there are a number of Palestinian refugees from Syria who have gone back, sort of middle class, who know that they're who were not living in Yarmouk, but they were part of the the urban establishment. But the the government itself, the government of Ahmed Shah, which is a transitional government. Has not has not encouraged everybody rushing back. And the reason for that is he's really desperate to start the reconstruction and rebuilding of Syria, which is very difficult because sanctions haven't been entirely lifted. And outside of the sanctions, there are many, many Syrians in the diaspora.
There have been since the 1980s who would like to find ways of sending money to help support their towns and villages, but the banking system still really prevents money being transferred to Syria, as though it's they haven't really caught up with the reality of what's taking place.
There have been since the 1980s who would like to find ways of sending money to help support their towns and villages, but the banking system still really prevents money being transferred to Syria, as though it's they haven't really caught up with the reality of what's taking place.
11:02
11:02
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I'd like to make one point here that. Turkey has taken a very, I'm going to say, humane instrumental approach to return, as in the Dayton Accords. It has actually permitted Syrians, at least for over a period of about six months, to do a look and see, so that heads of. Household of Syrian families in Turkey have been allowed to return. Yes. And see if it's okay. But that window only remained open for about six months. Whereas, of course, in Jordan, if if head of household went back to see if it was okay, whether their house still survived, they couldn't return back to Jordan.
So I think that look and see, which was first established in the 1990s in the Dayton Accords article seven really should be encouraged by all of the neighboring states.
So I think that look and see, which was first established in the 1990s in the Dayton Accords article seven really should be encouraged by all of the neighboring states.
11:03
11:03
Edward Morello
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Edward Morello
I just wanted to follow up on the point you were making before that Professor Chetty, on. The state, you know, has an open door policy and that please return, although it's not pushing it hard. To what extent is that a result of the fact that actually a significant influx in returning Syrian nationals would put additional pressure on the state in terms of and it's my understanding it is already struggling to provide essential services to vast swathes of the country.
So a massive influx of individuals would add pressure to that.
So a massive influx of individuals would add pressure to that.
11:03
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes. No. Absolutely. I mean, the urban infrastructure in Homs and Hama and Aleppo and all of the the outskirts of Damascus almost entirely destroyed. And in the country itself, in many of the cities, they only have electricity for four hours a day. So they really there is there would be a terrific burden if everybody were to return. But obviously they're not going to. They want to return when it's safe. And as Catherine pointed out, many of these families have been out of Syria for 12, 13 years. Their children have grown up abroad. So their education is really important in schools, yet aren't haven't been completely rebuilt.
And as of last week, there's been a huge debate as to how much the curriculum is going to be changed. Besides dropping the Bati propaganda. And right now there are lots of huge opposition to the proposal of making the curriculum quite conservative. And I think those who have been educated abroad are looking at that really carefully before they have their their families go back to some.
And as of last week, there's been a huge debate as to how much the curriculum is going to be changed. Besides dropping the Bati propaganda. And right now there are lots of huge opposition to the proposal of making the curriculum quite conservative. And I think those who have been educated abroad are looking at that really carefully before they have their their families go back to some.
11:04
Abtisam Mohamed
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Abtisam Mohamed
Thank you, chair. I want to take us back to 2011, when there was a large scale movement of Syrian refugees into nearby countries. I'm keen to hear your views in relation to the impact on those countries, the economic impact, the cohesion impact. So if I don't if I come to you first and keen to hear your views.
11:05
11:05
11:05
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
What's the difference? Well, for Syrians, it was a big difference. They didn't want to be called refugees. It was a matter of dignity again. And it also meant that the UN agency for refugees wasn't going to be responsible for them. It was the Turkish government under the the Afad program, and it provided them with health care and free education through to university. Once the once the Syrian children learned Turkish well enough. And the result, I think, in the end was about 200,000 Syrians took on Turkish citizenship alongside their Syrian citizenship. And these are people who are going to take a long time to make any decision about returning.
But in terms of the impact on the economy, you know, the population of Turkey is similar to the population of Germany, even though it took four times the number of Syrians than Germany did. I don't believe there was a terribly negative impact on the economy. Some could say that parts of the economy flourished. Now, that's not the same for Lebanon, of course, because you had before the armed conflict, you had half a million Syrians in Lebanon working in agriculture and construction. So this figure of a million probably primarily includes a lot of their families. But these were the, I'm going to say, the poorer Syrians, because middle class and upper class Syrians also went to Syria, but to Lebanon, but invested.
Cetera. ET cetera. So there wasn't that impact. There are several reports that suggest that the impact of Syrians in Lebanon was not quite as severe as is often made out, because within the Bekaa Valley, a lot of the landlords made a lot of money from renting land for Syrians to put up their tents, etc.. But obviously Lebanon has suffered from many other things at the same time, and all compounded besides the explosion in 2020 and the implosion, I suppose, of the banking system.
But in terms of the impact on the economy, you know, the population of Turkey is similar to the population of Germany, even though it took four times the number of Syrians than Germany did. I don't believe there was a terribly negative impact on the economy. Some could say that parts of the economy flourished. Now, that's not the same for Lebanon, of course, because you had before the armed conflict, you had half a million Syrians in Lebanon working in agriculture and construction. So this figure of a million probably primarily includes a lot of their families. But these were the, I'm going to say, the poorer Syrians, because middle class and upper class Syrians also went to Syria, but to Lebanon, but invested.
Cetera. ET cetera. So there wasn't that impact. There are several reports that suggest that the impact of Syrians in Lebanon was not quite as severe as is often made out, because within the Bekaa Valley, a lot of the landlords made a lot of money from renting land for Syrians to put up their tents, etc.. But obviously Lebanon has suffered from many other things at the same time, and all compounded besides the explosion in 2020 and the implosion, I suppose, of the banking system.
11:07
Emily Thornberry
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Emily Thornberry
11:07
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And in Jordan, again, the figures, you know, vary. But some some figures suggest that there are about 800,000 Syrians who went to to Jordan. A lot of. In the first couple of years, about 300 Syrian factories moved to Jordan. So the first couple of years there was a kind of a decrease in in unemployment. But obviously over time, these numbers had a significant impact on the infrastructure in Jordan. I've just come back from Jordan. I mean, water is access to water is a huge problem. And with these extra numbers, of course it makes it worse.
But Syrians in Jordan, there was something put into effect in 2016 called the Jordan Compact, which I'm going to say wasn't very well thought out because again, it's sort of restricted work permits to people in construction and in agriculture. But many of the Syrians had fled into Syria, were skilled workers or professionals who found it very difficult to work. Perhaps Lebanon has suffered the most because you're talking about 20 to 25% of their population being from Syria, but maybe, yeah, other issues, other issues here in terms of relations between countries, discrimination. You know, obviously in Lebanon, Hezbollah was very supportive of the regime in Syria, which created sort of issues for those who were fleeing the regime.
So there was a lot more, I think, tension in Lebanon over the Syria, the numbers of Syrians in the country.
But Syrians in Jordan, there was something put into effect in 2016 called the Jordan Compact, which I'm going to say wasn't very well thought out because again, it's sort of restricted work permits to people in construction and in agriculture. But many of the Syrians had fled into Syria, were skilled workers or professionals who found it very difficult to work. Perhaps Lebanon has suffered the most because you're talking about 20 to 25% of their population being from Syria, but maybe, yeah, other issues, other issues here in terms of relations between countries, discrimination. You know, obviously in Lebanon, Hezbollah was very supportive of the regime in Syria, which created sort of issues for those who were fleeing the regime.
So there was a lot more, I think, tension in Lebanon over the Syria, the numbers of Syrians in the country.
11:09
Abtisam Mohamed
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Abtisam Mohamed
Can I just follow up on that? But perhaps come to you, Catherine, in terms of the cohesion and how governments portrayed new communities coming into to to the country and the statements that they put out as governments? Were they supportive or were there different factors in play there? I'm keen to hear.
11:09
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think just to add to what what Dawn said as well. So we did a macroeconomic study of the impact of Syrian refugees on Lebanon. And there have been similar studies done in Jordan and Turkey. And at the macroeconomic level, it hasn't had a huge impact. But I think it's important that a lot of the impact is felt locally. So partly aid who have come into the countries have been used to keep up finances in some ways, but both the nature of aid, which we might want to discuss more later, and the fact that local communities have been overwhelmed by infrastructure and other things, has has really impacted and also made tensions between between groups.
And I think partly so what we know about refugee situations generally is that they often are protracted. But when the messaging from the beginning is that this is going to be temporary, you're only here temporary. You are a burden to the community that also can create tensions. And sometimes with all the other kind of crises that are going on simultaneously, both in Lebanon but also in Jordan in terms of economic developments, etc. it is it has also been easy to to blame the refugees. So I think it is important also to think at different levels here.
But I think it has been a very, very clear messaging, particularly from Jordan and Lebanon, which I know better about refugees being. They're temporary. And therefore that has also impacted how you could think that refugees could have been part of developing the economy, right? Because you actually, in terms of economic development, for example, of course, Lebanon lost huge export opportunities to Syria during the war. But then the purchasing power of Syrians in in Lebanon kind of balanced some of that. But the discourse was always a question of of being a burden. And in the context of compounded crisis, that has also been very important.
And now the discourse of return is also very strong. I think another very important example is, and if you have been to Lebanon, maybe you you heard about this so of about 130,000 Syrian refugees have been internally displaced during the Israeli war on Lebanon. So that means, you know, secondary displacement in a way, Syrian refugees did not feel welcome in the shelters that were open for Lebanese displaced. And I think that says something about some of the tensions that are often felt even in an emergency.
And I think partly so what we know about refugee situations generally is that they often are protracted. But when the messaging from the beginning is that this is going to be temporary, you're only here temporary. You are a burden to the community that also can create tensions. And sometimes with all the other kind of crises that are going on simultaneously, both in Lebanon but also in Jordan in terms of economic developments, etc. it is it has also been easy to to blame the refugees. So I think it is important also to think at different levels here.
But I think it has been a very, very clear messaging, particularly from Jordan and Lebanon, which I know better about refugees being. They're temporary. And therefore that has also impacted how you could think that refugees could have been part of developing the economy, right? Because you actually, in terms of economic development, for example, of course, Lebanon lost huge export opportunities to Syria during the war. But then the purchasing power of Syrians in in Lebanon kind of balanced some of that. But the discourse was always a question of of being a burden. And in the context of compounded crisis, that has also been very important.
And now the discourse of return is also very strong. I think another very important example is, and if you have been to Lebanon, maybe you you heard about this so of about 130,000 Syrian refugees have been internally displaced during the Israeli war on Lebanon. So that means, you know, secondary displacement in a way, Syrian refugees did not feel welcome in the shelters that were open for Lebanese displaced. And I think that says something about some of the tensions that are often felt even in an emergency.
11:12
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11:12
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Thank you, chair. And Katrina, you preempted my question a little bit by mentioning aid and overseas development assistance, but I particularly wanted to look at the impact of cuts from lots of donor countries on Syrian refugees, but also the host countries. So I wonder if you could start with that as a reflection.
11:12
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
That's, of course, a very big question. And I think it is very important, and hopefully we might come back to this in the next session as well, that there's there's a huge need for assistance in countries that take such a big burden of, of refugees. And I think that countries, you know, it's the question of burden sharing or responsibility sharing, etc.. I think what has happened over time with some of the aid is that aid going towards refugees is often labeled as humanitarian, which means it's short term. It doesn't really, you know, and it goes in very short cycles.
So it's more life support than thinking about development. And you could to some extent say that some of the aid that's come in over these years have also led to what we often call an NGO ization of civil society, where NGOs have become service providers more than maybe taking the role that we often think of as civil society should do in terms of creating change, etc.. With the different crises, etc. that's going on, and with this kind of life support approach, it means that when aid goes away, there is a huge gap. And I think that's felt very, very strongly at the moment.
And it has an impact on the civil society which has existed maybe on that. But also it has has has a huge impact on access to education, to health services, and currently also impacting food assistance. So, so it's and I think it's part partly that's the problem we need to solve now, but partly I think it's a problem that we need to look at how we're actually organizing aid to create that dependency. If that answers your question.
So it's more life support than thinking about development. And you could to some extent say that some of the aid that's come in over these years have also led to what we often call an NGO ization of civil society, where NGOs have become service providers more than maybe taking the role that we often think of as civil society should do in terms of creating change, etc.. With the different crises, etc. that's going on, and with this kind of life support approach, it means that when aid goes away, there is a huge gap. And I think that's felt very, very strongly at the moment.
And it has an impact on the civil society which has existed maybe on that. But also it has has has a huge impact on access to education, to health services, and currently also impacting food assistance. So, so it's and I think it's part partly that's the problem we need to solve now, but partly I think it's a problem that we need to look at how we're actually organizing aid to create that dependency. If that answers your question.
11:14
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
No, that's very helpful because I think we recognize in a lot of humanitarian situations, there's often a gap between that short term and that longer term funding cycles. I wonder maybe Dawn coming to you. If you look at UK aid specifically, is there a way that that can be organized more effectively? Is there a way that that could we be doing anything other than giving aid as a UK supporter in these crises?
11:14
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
In terms of this particular series of events, crises, I'm not sure which word to use. I think the UK could do a great deal more, because it's not so much emergency assistance that's required in Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey doesn't need this kind of assistance. I mean, it's so different from what we're seeing in Gaza and in the West Bank, but it could focus a great deal on really promoting and helping in the development of education and health care. I know in it's probably a study you're very familiar with that. One of the big problems in in Lebanon, where UNHCR was did have an MOU and was working very effectively.
They couldn't cover the health care requirements. Refugees often have to try and find money, borrow money in order to get emergency care or cancer treatment, etcetera, etcetera. So I think it's not so much the emergency, but it's helping to develop a health system and education system that can support displaced Syrians while they're in these countries. But also, I think that the UK needs to focus on Syria itself. And education is the big issue, which, you know, if a if a really sound curriculum is put into effect and there's a real development of rebuilding schools, then people are going to be more interested in returning because that then allows them some sort of dignity.
So it's not really emergency aid that the UK needs to look at in this context, I don't believe.
They couldn't cover the health care requirements. Refugees often have to try and find money, borrow money in order to get emergency care or cancer treatment, etcetera, etcetera. So I think it's not so much the emergency, but it's helping to develop a health system and education system that can support displaced Syrians while they're in these countries. But also, I think that the UK needs to focus on Syria itself. And education is the big issue, which, you know, if a if a really sound curriculum is put into effect and there's a real development of rebuilding schools, then people are going to be more interested in returning because that then allows them some sort of dignity.
So it's not really emergency aid that the UK needs to look at in this context, I don't believe.
11:16
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11:16
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, I think in Lebanon, many are are rural. I mean, the Bekaa Valley is holding most of the Syrians. And then of course, there's huge amount of support because of local associations or non-government associations in the region that have supported Syrians, mainly through helping them to access education. Jordan. Again, it's other than the fact that Zaatari and Azraq camps are refugee camps and they still exist. Most Syrian refugees are in an urban context. Of course, Turkey closed down all of its camps a few years ago, and so it really is promoted self settlement of Syrians along that southern border.
So there is that distinction. In some cases, it's urban, but certainly for assistance to Lebanon, I think it's mainly rural.
So there is that distinction. In some cases, it's urban, but certainly for assistance to Lebanon, I think it's mainly rural.
11:17
11:17
Alex Ballinger
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Alex Ballinger
Thank you. You mentioned the Jordan Compact. Professor Chetty, if I if I remember it, there was also an element for allowed refugees to work in the garment sector in manufacturing. Although the numbers that that did that may be debatable. I'm just interested if you could go a bit more detail into your reflections on why you think that wasn't wasn't a successful model, and then maybe compare it to the larger EU programs in Turkey, where I don't know if you're going to say that was more successful, but but do a comparison of the of the types of support and how that worked well or didn't work well.
11:18
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, the, the Jordan conflict in particular was very focused on a report that was put forward by Alex Betts and Paul Collier. Paul Collier being an economist who knows Africa very well, and Alex, who's a colleague of mine, but I have to say, doesn't know the Middle East and didn't know the Middle East. But this compact didn't it was going to fail right away because it was recognized by many Jordanians. But there were other elements to the compact, which was in terms of money that would be provided to the Jordanian government if they went through, was meant to provide work permits for Syrians to work legally in in Jordan, but only in what I'm going to say, agriculture, construction, and in these duty these free zones where they have these factories.
And there was kind of an assumption that Syrian women would leave their families all day and go and sit in the factory and produce. And it was sort of like, Syrian women aren't going to do that. It's not going to happen. And it didn't happen even in terms of the the sign up for legal work permits was very, very limited. I mean, they were I forgotten the numbers, but they were aiming at 2 or 300,000. And for the longest time, I think it remained at around 50,000 for reasons different than the same kind of effort that was made in Turkey, where a lot of the people hiring Syrians didn't want formal work permits because then it meant payment of higher taxes.
ET cetera. ET cetera. But the Jordan Compact is is. Came out of some academic research that was not contextualized to Jordan. And that's always a big issue. There was kind of a rush to do something in 2015, 2016. And so you have a project that didn't really work the way it was supposed to work.
And there was kind of an assumption that Syrian women would leave their families all day and go and sit in the factory and produce. And it was sort of like, Syrian women aren't going to do that. It's not going to happen. And it didn't happen even in terms of the the sign up for legal work permits was very, very limited. I mean, they were I forgotten the numbers, but they were aiming at 2 or 300,000. And for the longest time, I think it remained at around 50,000 for reasons different than the same kind of effort that was made in Turkey, where a lot of the people hiring Syrians didn't want formal work permits because then it meant payment of higher taxes.
ET cetera. ET cetera. But the Jordan Compact is is. Came out of some academic research that was not contextualized to Jordan. And that's always a big issue. There was kind of a rush to do something in 2015, 2016. And so you have a project that didn't really work the way it was supposed to work.
11:20
Alex Ballinger
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Alex Ballinger
Okay. And, and the big debate, I think after the Civil war in across Europe, including in the UK, was the number of Syrian refugees that made that trip beyond the the bordering countries to the UK. And I a lot was made of the support, particularly given to Turkey to prevent that, to help to help refugees stay close to Syria, to get the support they needed in the neighboring countries. Was that an effective policy? Was there a link between the Oda, the international aid that was provided to countries like Turkey and and the migration that came across into Europe?
11:20
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think I think definitely there was 2015, 2016. That was the the EU Turkish compact, whatever you want to call it. I think it slowed down the onward movement, but that onward movement couldn't have been totally prevented. No matter even if you had doubled the amount that was given to Turkey, because at that time, Turkey had a number of refugee camps, very, very good refugee camps near the border, but a lot of people were self-settled. And what you have to remember is what was happening in Syria at the time, which was at this point, ISIS, the Islamic State, had taken over about 80% of the country, and Russia had come in to support the regime and was really upping the aerial bombardments in the urban in the urban centers.
And I think that many families, even those in Turkey, thought we're not going to be able to go back any time soon. And decided to move on. So you had I would say it was about 800,000 were welcomed in Germany, large numbers in Scandinavia as well. It was you couldn't get into the UK. I mean, the UK had its what was it called, the Vulnerable People's Resettlement Program, which agreed to take 20,000 over a period of five years. So those are really minuscule numbers compared to the numbers that that did find asylum in Germany.
I don't know that it was such a disaster for Germany. There are some reports that have come out from the German government that have shown that those Syrians who received asylum in Germany had the opportunity to start working after six months and then started paying tax much earlier than had been expected. So within four years, most of them were paying tax and were becoming, you know, sort of paying back the costs that had been spent on them. So, you know, I think the that kind of funding can never really place what's happening on the ground.
Sort of the 2015,
And I think that many families, even those in Turkey, thought we're not going to be able to go back any time soon. And decided to move on. So you had I would say it was about 800,000 were welcomed in Germany, large numbers in Scandinavia as well. It was you couldn't get into the UK. I mean, the UK had its what was it called, the Vulnerable People's Resettlement Program, which agreed to take 20,000 over a period of five years. So those are really minuscule numbers compared to the numbers that that did find asylum in Germany.
I don't know that it was such a disaster for Germany. There are some reports that have come out from the German government that have shown that those Syrians who received asylum in Germany had the opportunity to start working after six months and then started paying tax much earlier than had been expected. So within four years, most of them were paying tax and were becoming, you know, sort of paying back the costs that had been spent on them. So, you know, I think the that kind of funding can never really place what's happening on the ground.
Sort of the 2015,
11:24
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
The. That kind of funding can never really place what's happening on the ground. Sort of. The 2015 2016 was the point when displaced Syrians. recognized this wasn't going to be over really quickly, and they felt that the regime was going to or it would fall to ISIS, which was going to be perhaps just as bad. And that's, you know, that was and then it stopped. You know, that was only one year. You know, the next year it really the numbers were greatly reduced. And maybe you could say that was then because of that program was in effect.
So those who felt that they had they really had to move on did. But it wasn't as though you had another. 800,000 or 1 million every year .
So those who felt that they had they really had to move on did. But it wasn't as though you had another. 800,000 or 1 million every year .
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Alex Ballinger
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Alex Ballinger
After 2015, 2016. It's a huge drop in numbers coming to Europe afterwards in a, in a, in a very short, very short period, as you say. Thank you, Professor Broom. Just moving on, moving on slightly in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan. I mean, it's been a. generation that many refugees have lived there, and some have had their entire. education in those countries. Could you could you tell us a little bit about the type of education that they've been able to get, and has that. enabled younger Syrians to have the skills that they might need to return to Syria .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Or to carry on? Carry on their lives in those countries? That's a big question. I think we have done some research looking, for example, one project where we compared what happened in Lebanon, Turkey and Australia to also look at a different kind of country and how different programs have been working, where we see that the question of how you are included into the national education system eventually means something for how how you succeed. So I think we give a lot of credit to Turkey here. Turkey had a had a more. gradual approach to, to, to get people into the education system in Australia.
It was much more of a kind of quick integration into the national system. In Lebanon. You've had second shifts, as .
It was much more of a kind of quick integration into the national system. In Lebanon. You've had second shifts, as .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And I think maybe more could have been done from donors as well to think about how do we. actually build the competence and the. capacity of both the host. societies and, and the. refugees in exile to think, think through this because when it comes to particularly Lebanon, Syrian children have actually lost out quite dramatically. And and this is going to be .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Challenge for, for how we we think about return as well. Can I just add, this is a really, really important point because throughout the world, but particularly clear in Lebanon and also in Jordan, but perhaps not as much. Of course, the, the, the refugees or the displaced. Syrians settle in the poorest. communities of the country. So, you know, it's just absolutely calling for extend aid to the host community and the refugees in it, and especially in terms of of education, because the.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Benefit to Lebanon and its people as well as the refugees. Can I sorry, sorry. Just to add one more point to that, because again, it comes back to aid. So what has happened and and UK aid has been quite important in supporting. education in Lebanon and Jordan. And the problem is a little bit that aid has contributed to somehow create a parallel system rather than. strengthening the national system. As Don says, in Lebanon, you have about. 70% going to private schools of Lebanese. 30% or less going to public school. And it's the public school system, which is the last resort for many Lebanese.
And that's also where Syrian refugees end up.
And that's also where Syrian refugees end up.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Strengthen that system. And I think that's also one of the things we need to discuss because these children , so maybe. 700,000 Syrians have gone back from Lebanon to Syria, but there's still a lot of children in Lebanon. And I think we. And in Jordan and in Turkey. And we don't we can't forget about those. And we need to think how do we maybe strengthen those systems, enable to prepare for long term that there .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Will be a return. So I think that's a very important point. Thank you very much. I appreciate the point you're making there about the sort of skills. deterioration in education. I wonder if there were any examples from other sectors, perhaps healthcare, where Syrian doctors have been able to practice or or from other sectors where you have seen the skills. maintained and the population supported.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You know, and the Turkish government has. permitted doctors and nurses who well, doctors who've been certified outside of. Syria to practice because Turkish most Turkish doctors cannot cannot speak Arabic. And so they needed them. But that's normally in the south of the country. But in Jordan and in Lebanon, there are a number of studies that have shown that doctors have sometimes been able to work.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Because I the impression I got, Doctor Chatty was that you were implying quite heavily that one of the ways to encourage people to go back into Syria is to have an education system that would that that that the parents would be confident in and that they. The concern was that given the trend of the current.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Is that your view? Well, there is currently a very big debate in Syria because the transitional government is suggesting that the curriculum, besides removing everything related to the Baath Party, is changing the cartoons in primary school so that any image of a woman is with a hijab is with a headscarf, which is, of course, not how Syrian women always dress, and also removing some of the elements that promote an understanding of democracy and how democracy functions. This is being deeply. challenged by. Syrians in the country, as well as those who have recently gone back. So there's a huge debate, and I think it would be wonderful if European countries could help.
You know, and I'm not going to say swing the debate, because obviously, in the end, it's what. Syrians decide on. But the I'm going to say that there is a minority that's very loud, that's trying to make. changes .
You know, and I'm not going to say swing the debate, because obviously, in the end, it's what. Syrians decide on. But the I'm going to say that there is a minority that's very loud, that's trying to make. changes .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
That a lot of the population are not happy about. And this is a readiness. So. So we so part of our inquiry is looking at what the Foreign Office could do as a positive, positive assistance to. Exactly. And so and we've heard I think we'll hear more. But part of it is a an investment in. agriculture and .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Electricity, electricity and water, education and education. I think what's really important is that there needs to be a much more nuanced view of Syria. Today. The Fcdo advisory has the whole of Syria red, which means we can't send our. students at the university, our doctoral students, to go to Syria. The university won't allow. They say it's too much of a risk, whereas Lebanon is very nuanced. There are areas of Lebanon where you can go and if we really want to know what's happening on the ground, we can't it can't just be secondary evidence, you know, from our students coming back or from what we're reading.
We need to look at, you know, Damascus is perfectly safe. It's parts of of Aleppo are also perfectly safe. There are certain areas .
We need to look at, you know, Damascus is perfectly safe. It's parts of of Aleppo are also perfectly safe. There are certain areas .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Air force struck it a couple of days ago and traveling between the two. No problem at all. I mean, the the borders are easy to traverse. It costs you 100. I think it's. $100 for a visa at the border. You don't have to, you know, do it in advance. So, you know, a lot of my doctoral students have gone back and forth, but researchers need to go back and, you know, maybe embassy.
I have not yet been I, I was meant to go last week, but I ended up having to do something .
I have not yet been I, I was meant to go last week, but I ended up having to do something .
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Edward Morello
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Edward Morello
Right. Thank you. Thank you, chair Professor Torres. Apologies. We don't have much time, but I'd like to return to the camps. Where? Where you started off. When you gave evidence to us last year, you talked about the inherent risk of security at the camps being removed and the camps collapsing. Syrian government obviously took over responsibility for security. Now, you mentioned before that our road is still open. Our hall was closed. Was that an organized closure? Can you talk us through what happened there? Because you mentioned. 5000 of the detainees were removed by the US to Iraq.
So what did that closure look like? How many detainees, to the best of your knowledge, were there in that .
So what did that closure look like? How many detainees, to the best of your knowledge, were there in that .
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Camp minus the 5000? What happened to the remaining? Okay. Thank you. So the the the closure was absolutely not organized. So it was the result of fighting between the Syrian government forces and at the time, the SDF. So the Kurdish forces who were controlling the camp. And it's not only Al-hol where women and children primarily were, were being held, but it's also.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Detention centers for juvenile boys. So a lot of these ended up being sort of falling apart in chaotic and and I mean, very dangerous circumstances for the people who were. inside the U.S. and I imagine other countries were particularly worried about the men in the prisons. And therefore, it's the men and some boys, a lot of boys. There are quite a few boys in the men's prisons, anyway, who were .
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Of them were brought over to Iraq. When you say boys. So the youngest I've heard this was brought over was 12. So young boys, you know, and we have to consider that we are now in 2026. So, you know, the last bastion of ISIS fell in 2019. So if they're if they're 12 now, you know, we're not talking about fighting age men in any shape or form. And the a lot of the, the women and, and children were, were actually Syrians. So the Syrians have. reintegrated in various ways within, within the. community and third country.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Women and children were brought to to Roj. Some were lost. So it is possible that if we if we're looking at third country nationals, British citizens were on. We just don't know where they are. They are unaccounted for, which is one of the main concerns as well, we had for their safety and. But also,
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Of thousands, tens of thousands. And and we and we were unaccounted for. Yes. But I mean, most of them, most of them were Syrians. And there were some Iraqis as well. But in terms of third country nationals, we're talking much, much smaller figures. And. And that would include European. But citizens from all over the world, and they were moved to Roj and some just I mean, I don't know, the images were, you know, it was it was complete chaos and and now Roj is is still actually administered by Kurdish forces with. And there are negotiations going on between the .
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
How many people are held at our Roj? Several thousand. The. I can tell you more on on. So I'm British citizens. We we. We believe there's more than 40. The conditions in the camps have have worsened from most people I've spoken to and in particular the. The violence in the camp has. So what what is happening is that when once. international NGOs and UN officials leave the camp in the evenings, there are retaliatory raids because of protests during the day. And this this violence has become has escalated from what I understand from people who are, who are, who have been to the camp and are in contact with with people in the camp.
So there are severe beatings of children, of women, there is children being. detained and refusal for them to be returned to their mothers. And there are. increased reports of ransom being asked for the children to be returned to their families. So the situation is, is, is escalating in terms of and just the, the uncertainty of the people who are living there. Right? Because Al-hol collapsed the way it was.
They don't know what's going to happen to Raj. They know that there is a .
So there are severe beatings of children, of women, there is children being. detained and refusal for them to be returned to their mothers. And there are. increased reports of ransom being asked for the children to be returned to their families. So the situation is, is, is escalating in terms of and just the, the uncertainty of the people who are living there. Right? Because Al-hol collapsed the way it was.
They don't know what's going to happen to Raj. They know that there is a .
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
The Syrian government envisages closing that down? So there's a question of. So I've heard two separate things. One is whether the Syrian government will take over control of the camp. The other is that actually the camp will be closed down, and the inhabitants of the camps will be brought to a possibly to Idlib, where which was a stronghold of, of,
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Repatriated to their country of origin out of Syria? I can't tell you exactly how many have been repatriated. I mean, not not huge amounts. I can give you the figure later. I can't give you off the top of my head, I can tell you that. To my knowledge, the last repatriation of British citizens was in April 2025. According. There's a tracker that says there was one one woman and three.
children who were repatriated at that time,
children who were repatriated at that time,
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
The women most likely many of them have been have gone, have been stripped of citizenship. But the children have I mean, you can't strip. I mean, the question of the stripping of citizenship is a whole other really, really. Difficult question. But certainly the children have not been stripped of citizenship and are, you .
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Belgium, Australia has repatriated, I believe, all its citizens. Finland recently repatriated a young boy from Iraq from. They found a young boy in a prison in the prison in Iraq and they. repatriated him. So a lot of the Americans are very, very adamant. So the Americans have repatriated everyone and are very adamant that everyone should repatriate their citizens. They have been pushing for this very strongly. The .
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Donald Trump. Is the American government still pushing for it? Yes, absolutely. They are. Yeah, very strongly. And I think we're going to find ourselves in this. I know we're looking at Syria here, but it's very connected to Iraq. But we're going to find ourselves in a situation where in Iraq, Iraq has said that all the men and boys that they have who are deemed to be either they don't have any evidence to charge them or are seen to be not guilty. They will want the country of origin to repatriate those citizens. They do not want to keep people in jail who should not be in jail, I think.
So there's a whole. complicated aid, financial agreement that that are being negotiated with with various countries to keep the nationals that are being sentenced to, to, to terms. But we have to think that a lot of these a .
So there's a whole. complicated aid, financial agreement that that are being negotiated with with various countries to keep the nationals that are being sentenced to, to, to terms. But we have to think that a lot of these a .
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Where there's clearly no sort of criminal connection or they're underage, the British government. So the position of the British government has until recently been that. And still is that. Well, in Syria they have no consular representation, and therefore they cannot get in touch with these people. I mean, I think that that was not tenable three years ago when I came the first time or a year and a half ago. It's certainly not tenable now with sustained and regular contact with Syrian.
authorities in Iraq. We have an embassy, so there's no reason to .
authorities in Iraq. We have an embassy, so there's no reason to .
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
But the women have got to give up their children, I. It is. I have heard a similar. I don't think this is. I'm not sure that has publicly been said. They. They've publicly said the British government's public position is. We will support orphans and. unattached or. unaccompanied minors on. But. But these minors are not unattached. They have mothers and they have family. Other. The. The difficulty is that you can imagine a child whose only attachment and whose only link to anybody in the world has been their mother in difficult, if not terrifying circumstances. I mean, the conditions in Roj have been described as akin to torture, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment by the UN.
Right. So this is what we're talking about. The idea that we are we're asking children to leave their mothers.
Right. So this is what we're talking about. The idea that we are we're asking children to leave their mothers.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Cannot be seen as being in the interest of these children. Right. The only connection they have to the world has been their mother. So I think it's it's a particularly so it's a particularly difficult circumstance. I think the question of security, I think, is important to answer. The UK boasts one of the most sophisticated.
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Dan Carden
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Dan Carden
Time, but the. Jordanian representatives not able to come. Yeah. Okay. Thinking of the regional powers in the area. And I wanted to ask about the importance of Islam. And if you could tell us a bit about the role of Islam from Assad to. Now, I am not an expert, but I understand Assad ran a secular book from from a Shia sect, and now Syria is the government and the majority of the people are Sunni.
And I'm wondering if you can tell me anything about the importance of that and what that might mean for .
And I'm wondering if you can tell me anything about the importance of that and what that might mean for .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Its relationships in the region as well. It's a very it's a complicated question, because I'm going to say that the West has been overly concerned with Islam in terms of how a country operates under the Assad regime. It was supposedly a secular state, but it was also a state that was. determined to keep all of its. minorities to its side, claiming that it was protecting them. But I'm going to question that later on. The problem now is this government in transition. Many Syrians want to see a kind of return to the I'm going to call it almost a mythical.
But the democratic years of Syria in the.
But the democratic years of Syria in the.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
When they had a Parliament, when the. The original wishes of the country was that only the president had to be Muslim, but otherwise it was a secular state. But that was that was actually distorted. So many Syrians who've never left, and many who have gone back or who are in diaspora but very deeply engaged with the shape of the transition that's going to come, are really interested and concerned in seeing that the the.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Nature of Syria remains. I chose not to use the word mosaic because mosaic tends to be like the tessera. You know, you think of harsh borders between groups, and that's not what many Syrians want. They're very there's still a great deal of suspicion about this transitional government. It. You know, it was the Hayat Tahrir al-Sham that managed Aleppo and got a lot of support from Turkey in in in terms of its being able to oust the Assad regime. But this government in transition have a number of very. Extremist elements to it. But that's not the.
entirety of of that government. And right now, this is exactly what the Syrian people, both in the country and in diaspora, are struggling with to try to maintain a country where you can't change the population numbers, where the Sunni element is very strong, although you have to remember that the Assad regime was really trying to undermine that and was quite happy to see the Sunni element leave and not come back. But there is a real effort now to try to work with both the Alawites in the north, a lot of negotiations taking place to try to work with the Druze in the south, although the Druze in the South have not really changed their nature in the last hundred years, there's always been this kind of struggle.
But there are many Christian elements in Syria very strong, very well educated, Greek.
entirety of of that government. And right now, this is exactly what the Syrian people, both in the country and in diaspora, are struggling with to try to maintain a country where you can't change the population numbers, where the Sunni element is very strong, although you have to remember that the Assad regime was really trying to undermine that and was quite happy to see the Sunni element leave and not come back. But there is a real effort now to try to work with both the Alawites in the north, a lot of negotiations taking place to try to work with the Druze in the south, although the Druze in the South have not really changed their nature in the last hundred years, there's always been this kind of struggle.
But there are many Christian elements in Syria very strong, very well educated, Greek.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Because we don't know, a lot has been said about the inhabitants of the camps and how, you know, they're particularly radical. And people I've spoken to who visited the camps did not find that, you know, they found young, young boys who were trying to show them various dance moves that, you know, it was just not at all the .
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Stability of Syria going forward. My argument for a long time has been that armed groups are not, and I mean, HDZ was an armed group before it took over the government. Armed groups don't have a soul. They they you you can you know, they, they will evolve depending on their interests. So everything that can be done to. encourage the current. government to move towards norms that they and everybody else feels comfortable with is, is a plus. So I think there's a lot of worry for many people that, you know, he is pretending to be something, but actually they're not.
They have this hard line soul inside them that will eventually be revealed. I don't see armed groups that way. I think armed groups can be offered.
They have this hard line soul inside them that will eventually be revealed. I don't see armed groups that way. I think armed groups can be offered.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
In a certain direction if the right incentives are put forward. And on a positive note, what what many Syrians are. Confident with is that they are. protesting rules, laws, etc., that are being. suggested and their protests are being listened to. They're not being disappeared, they're not being arrested. And this is a kind of freedom that gives them a sense of dignity. And as long as these protests are not shut down and the government listens, then I think they'll be moving in a direction that that Europe, that the rest of the world will not be too unhappy with.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I think that's okay. I, I'd very much like to thank you for coming and giving evidence before us. It's been so really interesting and for sharing your expertise. It's been an extremely interesting session. Thank you very much indeed. This concludes our first panel. And if there's anything that you'd like to add or you feel that you haven't covered today, please do write to the committee about that. I'm now going to briefly suspend the session.
I'm going to suspend .
I'm going to suspend .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
In your honorable committee. Thank you. We we didn't think that that we would have opening. statements to the committee, but we thought we'd have an opening question. So I wondered if each of you could tell us your countries thoughts and concerns about Syria as the new government continues to emerge after after years of a of a brutal.
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
We have hosted millions of Syrians fleeing the war. We have faced one of the largest mass movements of people since the Second World War. And we responded with. humanitarian approach. For years, we were the world's largest refugee hosting nations against, according to UN figures. At its peak, Turkey hosted more than.
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Syria stands as one of the few sources of hope in the region. That's how we see it. There are a lot of challenges and these are immense challenges. We are aware of it. And as a neighbouring, responsible neighboring country of Syria, we continue to do our best to support Syria, for it to become a stable and secure country that is. inclusive as well. So Syria needs our support.
We want to see a Syria that is at peace with itself, with its neighbors and with the.
We want to see a Syria that is at peace with itself, with its neighbors and with the.
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
We have reaped this benefit, obviously, eventually. But there were also initially a lot of challenges socially in terms of security economy wise as well. And it has always been a thorny political issue as well. Yes, it was one of the biggest issues in the last presidential elections, for example, in 2023. But now we came to a period where people are at least are having hope for their country and started to return back voluntarily. And the ones who choose to remain in Turkey, or, as I say, integrating into society, opening their businesses. So our efforts also continue to increase the social .
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
And. investable and obviously needs considerable help. Definitely, as I say, there are huge. opportunities if we can help. Syria to be to become, again, a stable and secure country, there will be a lot of economic opportunities. Now we are trying to establish industrial zones both in Aleppo and in Damascus. We try to have strong connections between our business organizations. We also try to connect Syrian UK Business Council to our business council to have joint events.
Trade would eventually increase, but everything depends on the right. investments inside Syria, especially in.
Trade would eventually increase, but everything depends on the right. investments inside Syria, especially in.
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
So forth. Syria also offers a huge opportunity in terms of connectivity. After what we have witnessed in the Gulf and also in Bab el Mandeb, I think we need definite. alternative sources for transportation. So we already have on table Hejaz railway, what we call literally. connecting the Gulf through Syria to Europe via Turkey. We also have plans to connect Syria to pipelines. Already there is an operational.
pipeline between our border city, Kilis and the Syrian city on the other side, and natural gas is flowing from Turkey to these regions, which is actually generating .
pipeline between our border city, Kilis and the Syrian city on the other side, and natural gas is flowing from Turkey to these regions, which is actually generating .
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Opportunities for Syrians in Syria. Or is this just they are they are this is one of the objectives that we are focusing on to increase the lively hoods inside Syria. Otherwise, people will not have any hope for return. So that's why we are trying to create this industrial zones to open business and job. opportunities for people, especially younger.
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Should see a hope for their future to work inside the country. Our businesses are literally integrating to one another, especially in the southeast region of our country. Gaziantep is a major city in our southeast. It's a production hub, is an industrial city. It has already very strong. connections with the border towns, especially Aleppo and Damascus as well. All these people who return back will also continue to be a very strong bridge of connection between two nations and also economic.
That's how we believe it, because these people are bilingual already. So they will continue to .
That's how we believe it, because these people are bilingual already. So they will continue to .
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Alex Ballinger
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Alex Ballinger
Force of increasing this economic partnership. Excellent. Thank you, Your Excellency. Turkey continues to maintain quite a large military presence in the in the north of Syria. So I think you'll have a you'll have a good overview of the security situation there. So could you give us, firstly, your sort of. assessment of the security situation, particularly for refugees that might be returning. And then what do you think will be the the future of that that .
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Is that going to be maintaining there for a long time or not? Security is key for voluntary returns to be sustainable. Otherwise people will not go back to their home countries. Damascus is pretty secure. That's what we know. Aleppo is the same. So major cities are more or less in a decent security environment. We are seeing it. Taking this opportunity. I would like to give a small background about Turkey's military presence in Syria, because in the initial. announcement of this inquiry, Turkey was put in the same basket with Israel as two countries with their military.
presences in Syria, which. destabilise Syria. This is. disappointing for us because Turkey and Syria stands on literally opposite sides of the equation. We see Syria as a friend. We want to see a. successful Syria, a stable Syria, whilst. unfortunately Israel sees Syria as an enemy and it wants to see a failed state, obviously we have to work hard. including the UK, to convince Israelis that a failed state in Syria will also harm national interests of Israel.
Hopefully after the formation of the new government, Israel and Syria could get together again and reach an.
presences in Syria, which. destabilise Syria. This is. disappointing for us because Turkey and Syria stands on literally opposite sides of the equation. We see Syria as a friend. We want to see a. successful Syria, a stable Syria, whilst. unfortunately Israel sees Syria as an enemy and it wants to see a failed state, obviously we have to work hard. including the UK, to convince Israelis that a failed state in Syria will also harm national interests of Israel.
Hopefully after the formation of the new government, Israel and Syria could get together again and reach an.
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
We will decide for the fate of our troops . From day one, we favored and strongly supported the territorial integrity, unity and sovereignty of Syria. Unlike Israel did so we have no intention whatsoever on the territorial integrity of Syria itself. As a matter of fact, the Syrian government requests are troop presence to continue, especially in this transition period where security. situation is still fragile in some regions. And thanks to our presence, actually, the voluntary returns have started earlier, much before December 24th. So the regions that were cleared from Daesh, ISIS and PKK terrorism people went voluntarily to these regions.
We have shouldered on the civilian side important. responsibilities like offering postal services, education, health.
We have shouldered on the civilian side important. responsibilities like offering postal services, education, health.
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
And we started to gradually transfer them to the Syrians. So the pace of the transfer is, as I said, decided by the Syrian governments and authorities. For example, postal services are no more with the Turkish control from very early on, we transferred the control of the border gates. So we want to transfer all these institutions, obviously, to civilian Syrian.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
That meant big subsidy from the government was going to the refugee population. Now, of course, two things I will say. One is, and as you mentioned to Turkey, of course, adding. populations always has some positive impact on economic growth. And as an economist, I know that. And when I was at the world Bank, we actually measured that for the case of Lebanon. But we also found that that. positive impact of an added population, because through. consumption and the like does not over, you know, the net effect still remains for a fragile country like Lebanon remain negative, including on the labor market, the wages there was a huge pressure, downward pressure on wages, the informal sector more than doubled.
And we still are living that today. As much as the government efforts to try to. formalize and to and the like, it's been very difficult. You can imagine this is not an easy feat to formalize the sector, to formalize a job employment. So the net effect has been, in terms of.
And we still are living that today. As much as the government efforts to try to. formalize and to and the like, it's been very difficult. You can imagine this is not an easy feat to formalize the sector, to formalize a job employment. So the net effect has been, in terms of.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Of which Syrian labor was a big part of it. So we know that, for example, around. 400,350 to 400,000 Syrian workers were always in Lebanon, sometimes seasonally going in and out for. agricultural season. But what happened after. 2011 is that they brought their families because, of course, they were running from. persecution of the Assad regime. So it's the presence of families, which they grew larger and larger. population in Lebanon in the last 14 years is what puts a strain on the social services and our infrastructure. Now, of course, you're going to ask about the international community.
Of course, international community has come to our aid from early on.
Of course, international community has come to our aid from early on.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
When the government, with the United Nations and the donors, including UK, organized around frameworks of response, that every year we would go to Brussels and put our needs on the table and then they would be funded. But always that funding was partial. And increasingly in the last few years it's getting less and less funding. In fact, just now we are about to launch our appeal for next year for what we call the Lebanon Response Plan, the LRP. And we're already told by the donors that, you know, expect much, much less than before. So that funding has helped.
Of course, it has helped finance, for example, the cost of. education for Syrian refugees. And UK has been a big contributor to that all around. And we thank you for that.
Of course, it has helped finance, for example, the cost of. education for Syrian refugees. And UK has been a big contributor to that all around. And we thank you for that.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
As I mentioned, as the the funding. internationally has been going down and that's a result of various factors, global changes. This means, de facto that the. government budget, which is very, very weak at this point, has to pick up the the the cost health. For example, we've been told by some of the UN health agencies that there's no more funding for health for. refugees in Lebanon. Now what. So in terms of measures on the response, the government did a lot. As I mentioned, we we opened schools in the afternoon. We, you know, provided health care.
We did not set up formal camps because simply that's a historical issue in Lebanon, where formal camps do not have a good history to them. And but there were informal settlements that were sprung up around. And unfortunately, their conditions were actually. very bad. But we supported all, you know, gender based violence, child. protection we. implemented with the UN and donors many, many such programs to at least provide a basic, dignified life for the Syrian refugees. And I must say, when I was in Syria three weeks ago and met with some of the Syrian refugees who were in Lebanon, who had gone back now to Syria, they were.
very positive and happy and reminiscent of their experience in Lebanon. In fact, there was 116 year old girl who essentially was two years old when she moved to Lebanon then, but now back in Syria, said she wanted to come back to Lebanon, that this is really where she felt this is her country. So I think despite some of the noise that's heard.
We did not set up formal camps because simply that's a historical issue in Lebanon, where formal camps do not have a good history to them. And but there were informal settlements that were sprung up around. And unfortunately, their conditions were actually. very bad. But we supported all, you know, gender based violence, child. protection we. implemented with the UN and donors many, many such programs to at least provide a basic, dignified life for the Syrian refugees. And I must say, when I was in Syria three weeks ago and met with some of the Syrian refugees who were in Lebanon, who had gone back now to Syria, they were.
very positive and happy and reminiscent of their experience in Lebanon. In fact, there was 116 year old girl who essentially was two years old when she moved to Lebanon then, but now back in Syria, said she wanted to come back to Lebanon, that this is really where she felt this is her country. So I think despite some of the noise that's heard.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
I believe that most of the. refugees in Lebanon were able to have a basic. dignified life. I'm not saying it was luxurious, by all means. And and poverty is still very high. So what have we done since the fall of the Assad regime? This would be my last point. Of course, the first thing we did was to reestablish the relationship with the new Syrian government. And we. Given that the sea change in Syria, we said that now most of the. refugees can go back. There are no more political refugees, if you will. So we with the Syrian government, we discussed what what we call a return plan, which our.
government a year ago has passed, a return plan, which. essentially says that, you know. ultimately the refugees are entitled and should go home. Of course, there will be those that want that need to remain or want to remain as economic. migrants to work. As I mentioned, there always was a large number of Syrian refugees or Syrians working in Lebanon before, and those we will grant them work permits and. residency so that they can be legal. But we, we we as international community to help us with the return process, basically to provide financial incentives. To help the families go back and, in fact, provide transportation.
So through the IOM, the International Organization of Migration and.
government a year ago has passed, a return plan, which. essentially says that, you know. ultimately the refugees are entitled and should go home. Of course, there will be those that want that need to remain or want to remain as economic. migrants to work. As I mentioned, there always was a large number of Syrian refugees or Syrians working in Lebanon before, and those we will grant them work permits and. residency so that they can be legal. But we, we we as international community to help us with the return process, basically to provide financial incentives. To help the families go back and, in fact, provide transportation.
So through the IOM, the International Organization of Migration and.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Administrative measures which basically we. Removed their obligations. We deleted their their obligations to pay any fees that they had because they had overstayed. Most of them were here illegally. So by definition, they accumulating penalties. So we removed these penalties. And we also said that if you want to come back legally, you can. We do not blacklist you for having been here for overstaying your stay. So we put these measures in place. And as a result of that, we've had around numbers are a little bit hard to pin down, but between. 650 to 700,000 Syrian refugees go back.
Since a year ago, since we started this plan. And that is a process which is dignified. It is sustainable because they're going back with their families, and almost 90% are going back to their areas of origin. So in that sense, it is. sustainable and it is. also a safe return. As I mentioned. organized with the help of the UN. This process is continuing. It has slowed down because I believe that most people by now who wanted to go back and can go back, have gone back. And I was in Syria yesterday. We had a high level visit to Syria again yesterday to speak with the Syrian authorities, especially on this point.
We know that Syria has a long way yet to go in terms of. reconstruction and recovery, and this is where we. support their call to the international. community to help and put efforts behind that, because the stability and. security and prosperity and growth of Syria means also stability and security and growth for Lebanon. And the opposite is also true. Lebanon is stable and secure. It's also and growing. It also helps Syria, despite us being a smaller country. But our private sector is very active, very robust, and for example, was running the banks in Syria for many years.
They I mean, many, many investments also come from Lebanese into Syria. So this is a mutual interest helps Syria to grow and to reconstruct. So that also it can be a win win situation. Ultimately. And this is my last point. We want to reach a situation on the refugees where the families go back safely and. dignified and the like, and then the. breadwinner would become an economic.
migrant and is. legalized and can go back and forth and provide, you know, an income for their .
Since a year ago, since we started this plan. And that is a process which is dignified. It is sustainable because they're going back with their families, and almost 90% are going back to their areas of origin. So in that sense, it is. sustainable and it is. also a safe return. As I mentioned. organized with the help of the UN. This process is continuing. It has slowed down because I believe that most people by now who wanted to go back and can go back, have gone back. And I was in Syria yesterday. We had a high level visit to Syria again yesterday to speak with the Syrian authorities, especially on this point.
We know that Syria has a long way yet to go in terms of. reconstruction and recovery, and this is where we. support their call to the international. community to help and put efforts behind that, because the stability and. security and prosperity and growth of Syria means also stability and security and growth for Lebanon. And the opposite is also true. Lebanon is stable and secure. It's also and growing. It also helps Syria, despite us being a smaller country. But our private sector is very active, very robust, and for example, was running the banks in Syria for many years.
They I mean, many, many investments also come from Lebanese into Syria. So this is a mutual interest helps Syria to grow and to reconstruct. So that also it can be a win win situation. Ultimately. And this is my last point. We want to reach a situation on the refugees where the families go back safely and. dignified and the like, and then the. breadwinner would become an economic.
migrant and is. legalized and can go back and forth and provide, you know, an income for their .
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John Whittingdale
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John Whittingdale
Work in Lebanon. I'll stop here. Thank you. Thank you that that was helpful. I think you've answered not just my initial question, but probably several of the others that we were wanting to raise. But is it your view? I mean, you said you'd met a refugee who'd returned to Syria, but was actually sort of saying that they missed Lebanon? To what. extent do you think there are going to be a number who simply don't want to return, that they've made .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
By our Constitution, is not what we call a country for of refuge in the sense that nationalizing. I mean, we we , of course, accept many refugees. We've had Iraqi refugees, of course, Palestinian refugees. This has been the longest refugee population we had. But we're not a country that gives. citizenship and nationalizes. It's under very. exceptional basis. And that has many. reasons partly confessional makeup and so on. Not worth going through here, but so it's not an option to be. nationalizing at least large numbers of Syrians who are here. If they can legally get a work permit and make a living here and the like.
Of course, they are welcome. And this is benefit for Lebanon also, as well .
Of course, they are welcome. And this is benefit for Lebanon also, as well .
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Abtisam Mohamed
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Abtisam Mohamed
Any questions at the end, then we'll we'll sweep them up that way, if that's all right. Thank you. Chair. So I have a question in relation to what the UK could be doing to contribute. So the minister very helpfully referenced the Lebanese response plan and the support that's been. provided by the UK through UN officials. So, Your Excellency, if I come to you first, is there anything that the UK could be doing more .
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
To support returns and. reintegration and to help. finance essential. services in Syria, such as schools and hospitals and housing. So returns are. sustainable because the issue here is not just about crossing the border. They need to live in dignity and of course, at the same time to continue. supporting vulnerable Lebanese. families and the. displaced in Lebanon and to help our social and social.
institutions such as. hospitals and.
institutions such as. hospitals and.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Infrastructure support in Syria. What could the UK do to to support? We have been in close contact with the UK on all aspects of the Syrian file here. I have been in regular contact with the UK Syria envoy who became your ambassador in Yemen. Now, just last week, our deputy minister was here just for consultations on Syria and how we can work together to support Syria's. transition and also rebuilding of the country. Our development. agencies are in touch. Taika is our development agency, and they are in talks with our colleagues at the Fcdo. We have to work together, especially on financial services, where UK has a specific.
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Alex Ballinger
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Alex Ballinger
Does anybody have any further questions? Alex, do you want to I was just slightly connected to when we were talking before Your Excellency. It was about the Kurdish armed forces or the Kurdish militias and their integration with the with the Syrian army. I mean, from Turkey's perspective, do you see that as a positive step and a step, maybe towards the. normalization between the the tensions that between the various Kurdish groups in Turkey? And do you think that will will be a step towards .
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
And we want to see the Syrian government to be in effective. control of the entire country. So the deal between the SDF and the Syrian government was a welcome agreement for us as well. And as Turkey, we have been very. supportive of this process from early on. As you know, in Turkey, we also have an ongoing political process which is managed and supervised by our parliament with the support of most of the political.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Kurdish groups. And Turkey will be very, very positive. Sometimes there is. A feeling that Turkey or the Turkish people are against the Kurds. There's a narrative like this which is false, actually, and which is politically loaded. Kurds are. essential elements of our society, of our country. They own our country together with other.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Regardless of any ethnicity. Any Turkish citizen belongs to this country. And we have very good. relationship for years with the Kurds of northern Iraq, for example, for decades. If today Erbil is one of the most advanced city in in Iraq, it's mostly because of this relationships as well. And during the father at that time, Turkey has. campaigned for the restitution of the rights of the Kurds in Syria. So we have no issues with the Kurds. Our issue has been with PKK. terrorism for decades, which has caused tens of thousands of lives and also trillion dollars of.
financial burden. And hopefully with these new.
financial burden. And hopefully with these new.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Forward for a peaceful future. Thank you. In the absence of any other questions, I would like to thank the Minister for her time and giving evidence today. It was a tour de force, your evidence and you covered every question we we thought we might ask. So. So thank you very much indeed. And Your Excellencies, thank you very much for coming in and for and for helping us. I if there's anything that you'd like to add, then please do, do write in to us .
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