Disabled People: Mobility Benefits
Baroness Hollis of Heigham Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Freud
My Lords, I emphasise that a lot of attention was paid to that consultation, as to all consultations. The issue that the department had to deal with was whether there was a better suggestion for drawing a line and, in practice, we could not find one within the consultation responses. I remind noble Lords that, as a result of activity in this Chamber, we toughened up the definition with,
“reliably, safely, repeatedly and in a timely manner”,
locked into how it operates.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)
My Lords, nearly 30% of those who get enhanced mobility payments turn them into a Motability car, so approximately 100,000 to 120,000 people stand to lose their car. We know that when they go to appeal, 60% win their appeal but in the process, given the time it takes, they will have lost their car before having the additional expense of starting all over again. Will the Minister therefore ensure that anyone going to appeal does not lose their car until the appeal has been heard?
Lord Freud
My Lords, that is not the process which we are going through. It is difficult to draw a line between people with enhanced mobility and those on Motability. That is one of the things that we will be looking at as we do this review, which will report towards the end of next year—before large volumes of people are due to go in, so we will be able to look at this closely.
Housing: Underoccupancy Charge
Baroness Hollis of Heigham Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of the underoccupancy charge on the stability of communities.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con)
My Lords, the impact of the removal of the spare room subsidy on the stability of communities will be assessed over the next two years as part of the independent evaluation currently being undertaken by a consortium which is being led by Ipsos MORI and which includes the Cambridge Centre for Housing and Planning Research and the Institute for Fiscal Studies.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. Good social housing requires stable communities where neighbours look out for each other. That is one of the differences between social housing and the scattered private rented sector. How will half a million disabled families cope without their neighbours’ support because they are forced to move by the bedroom tax? How will frail elderly relatives cope when their middle-aged children who care for them have to move away because of the bedroom tax? Ministers quote the changes to the private rented sector in 2008 but those changes were not retrospective, whereas these are, and that is what is so wrong. Will the Minister undertake to ensure, as a transitional arrangement, that the bedroom tax applies only to new lettings and will he lift the bedroom tax for existing tenants and help us to maintain stable communities on which our civic life is based?
Lord Freud
My Lords, the policy is in position and is going through. The latest figures came out last week and showed that it now affects approximately 523 million people—
Universal Credit: National Rollout
Baroness Hollis of Heigham Excerpts(10 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Freud
My Lords, when you introduce a big programme of change, the important thing is that you test and trial it thoroughly. We have a major programme of testing and trialling, whether it is the intensive-activity programme, the in-work conditioning pilots, the housing demonstration projects or the 12 local authority pilots. I am hoping soon to publish the next issue of the local support service framework that is designed exactly to make sure that there is a support network for people who might otherwise look for the superglue.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)
Like others in this House, I support universal credit and I welcome it, but I am deeply worried that it is going to be a paperless system accessible only online. A very large number of people in their 40s and 50s in limited financial circumstances on benefit do not possess computers, smart phones or computer skills. They will not be able to interrogate or correct errors on the system, and even if the Minister successfully delivers the structure, which I hope he is able to do, although I have my doubts, I am profoundly worried that an awful lot of people who should receive their full benefit will not be able to do so because they will not have access to a paper system.
Scotland: Underoccupancy Charge
Baroness Hollis of Heigham Excerpts(10 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Freud
My Lords, I have seen the research to which my noble friend refers. Clearly, it is encouraging. I also note that the report by the Scottish Parliament states that in one area the case load has fallen already by 15%. As I said just now, we need to be cautious about early findings but this one clearly is positive.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister has stated that the bedroom tax will release larger, underoccupied properties for the waiting list but 80% of those on the waiting list want the selfsame smaller properties as the underoccupiers who have priority. This report shows that it will take three years to rehouse underoccupiers. Will the Minister therefore accept that it is false to claim that the bedroom tax will help those on the waiting list? On the contrary, their waiting times will probably double.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I must make the point that while the party opposite likes to use the expression “bedroom tax”, it is deeply misleading. A tax is when you take away money that people earn. We are limiting the amount of money that the taxpayer pays to people. There are 1.4 million one-bedroom properties, which become available at the rate of roughly 100,000 a year. Quite a lot of people are likely to want to keep an extra bedroom because they have the resources and the desire to keep it. Therefore, there will be a period of adjustment, and we are going through it. We are spending the discretionary housing payment to allow that transition to happen in an orderly way.
Housing: Under-occupancy Charge
Baroness Hollis of Heigham Excerpts(10 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what advice they give to social landlords whose tenants have fallen into arrears as a result of the under-occupancy charge.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of a housing association and I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con)
My Lords, social landlords had more than a year to design, develop and deliver strategies to mitigate the effects of under-occupancy and were advised to start building responsibly to avoid driving people into arrears. Prior to implementation, the Government, working collaboratively with the Chartered Institute of Housing, produced specific guidance for landlords, Making It Fit, and continue to fund its Making Best Use of Stock team, which assists landlords to find suitably sized accommodation for tenants. Fact sheets containing advice on home swaps, money management, payment options and how to look for and find work have also been issued. To be clear, 60% of those requiring social housing are single or couples without children, but over the last decades landlords have ignored this fact, resulting in larger homes being built, even though the greatest need is for smaller properties. Finally, £190 million has been provided this year to help vulnerable claimants.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, a recent sample shows that half of all affected tenants are in arrears and that three-bed houses are now hard to let. Do we move tenants to smaller accommodation? It cannot be done because there is none. Do we increase income with discretionary payments? For the 90% who are ineligible, it will not be done. Do we allow arrears to soar? As this could send us into the red, it should not be done. Or do we evict vulnerable families from their three-bed homes into temporary accommodation, back into an unwanted, hard-to-let, three-bed house? That can be done if we ignore the futility, misery and cost. Which of these options does the Minister favour?
Lord Freud
My Lords, it is simply premature to come to any conclusions as to the level of arrears. We will, of course, provide that information when we have the kind of reliable information that this House requires me, as a Minister, to deliver. There have been various surveys, but the samples are just too narrow. There are 1.4 million one-bedroom properties in the social rented sector and we are looking to have those managed more efficiently. I remind noble Lords that the scare stories about what would happen to our LHA reforms were very similar to the kind of stories that are being propagated now and we have not seen any poor reaction in terms of homelessness as a result of those reforms.
Universal Credit, Personal Independence Payment, Jobseeker’s Allowance and Employment and Support Allowance (Claims and Payments) Regulations 2013
Baroness Hollis of Heigham Excerpts(10 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)
My Lords, I will follow the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds in his point about going online. First, I want to say, as others have said, that I very much support universal credit and I am watching with wry horror now the number of people being taken to court for failure to pay the £2 or £2.50 owed on their council tax bills by virtue of the localised council tax system. One wishes that some other parts of the Government had listened to some of the debates that we had in Grand Committee on that subject.
Like others, I am concerned about where some of the cuts are going to fall. In particular, I remain worried by the disincentives to second earners, usually women, in couples whom we want to encourage to go back into the labour market. We increasingly make it less financially worth while that they should do so. I think that is very foolish indeed.
However, my biggest concern has been not just the payment problems, which my noble friends Lady Lister and Lord McKenzie have mentioned, but the assessment issues associated with them. Perhaps I may remind the noble Lord that, as far as I am aware, most of the pathway schemes and experiments so far have been with younger people in urban areas. They are more likely to be IT-literate and more likely to have access to IT facilities. I am chair of a housing association that runs across a rural county. A substantial proportion of my older tenants have no access to WPs. Of those who do, only 14%, when I had my last tenants’ conference, actually used them for financial matters, such as the handling of bank accounts and so on. In order for those other tenants to be able to claim universal credit, they have somehow to access a WP. I have four centres across the county of Norfolk—in King’s Lynn, Norwich, Dereham and Great Yarmouth, and possibly North Walsham, but we will see—in which we will set up local offices. There will be terminals and there will be people to guide people through their applications. That is fine, except that people may have to go on something like a 15-mile bus ride to make their application. Because it is a paperless system, they will not be able to correct any mistakes online. They will not be able to answer any queries about the information. They will not be able to follow it up because they will be back home.
I tried to see whether there was any way I could bring IT facilities to people in that situation. I considered, for example, whether I could provide terminals in people’s homes inexpensively, possibly through a leasing system. Yes, I could, except that those same tenants cannot afford to pay the broadband or dial-up charges. So I cannot put them online in their homes. I then thought about whether I could in some way get them smartphones to give them some online access. No, they cannot afford the charges of smartphones. So they cannot afford to go online. Indeed, in some parts of Norfolk you cannot even get access to broadband, but that is another matter. We have only 90% coverage, so sod the 10%. No doubt they will get their money somehow. None the less, in large parts of Norfolk, there will be a large number of people who have no access to terminals in their home or to a smartphone, who have no computer skills, who have to go into a local centre, and who, if any mistake is made, will have no ability to correct it.
You may think that assessment will be only once a year or once every six months and therefore this is a minor problem compared with the payment issues. I hope that is right, but one of the crucial reasons why the old CSA computer toppled over, which was at the core of the failure of the CSA to deliver the service it should have delivered, was that half of all lone parents had more than 12 changes of circumstances in a year. They were largely associated with changes in childcare at each holiday period because it did not fit the school’s working time or the mother’s work patterns. You can get real-time information from an employer about income, but you cannot get real-time information in the same way for ever-changing childcare bills. That means that that lone parent or that couple will have to reassess, reclaim and adjust their UC online as it is going to be paperless. Will the Minister tell me how I should respond to this? I have hundreds of tenants who at the moment have no IT skills, no access to gaining them, although I am trying to do crash courses where people are willing to take them, no terminals at home, no ability to afford dial up if it were to exist and no access to phones. How are they going to input the information they need to input to get the money they are entitled to? I would be glad of some help on this point.
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)
I shall make a short contribution to this important debate. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for introducing it. Using a Motion of Regret is clunky, but this is important. I shall start with a question about parliamentary process. Things have changed since the old days. In my experience of parliamentary change of this kind, Bills were much less far reaching and were implemented over a much shorter timescale. After the six-month period of purdah, Ministers could always explain the unfolding of the regulations that flowed from the primary Act. We are getting to a stage where we are paying more attention to guidance rather than to statutory instruments. Statutory instruments are becoming almost as skeletal as the primary legislation. Therefore, how are parliamentarians able to keep up with what is going on, particularly when this is at least a five-year implementation phase? I think it would be a good trick if the Government could achieve it in a five-year period.
In parenthesis, I want to strengthen the Minister’s hand. Speaking for myself, I am much more interested in getting this universal credit reform right than I am in sticking to any timetable, political or otherwise. I have next to no interest in what will happen in May 2015 compared with this important legislation. It is transformational architecture, but because it is transformational, it is difficult to deliver for reasons that we have heard.
It is not just that it is taking five years to do. It is now intimately engaged with other government departments. HMRC is the prime one, but not the only one. There is also DCLG—is it DCLG or DCLM?
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope
Thank you. I am Scottish. Luckily it does not apply to me.
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope
I know.
We have a lot of extra heavy lifting to do to try to make sense of what is going on. If that was not enough, we have for the first time a completely transformational application of ICT technology in digital delivery. All that means that this has to be done slowly and sensitively. I would like to think that the kind of flexibility that the Minister showed in the seminal Committee stage of the 2012 Act is still available to us because if he is not sensitive to the sort of things that are being raised he risks prejudicing public perception of what he is trying to do, as the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, said.
I am absolutely certain that the vast majority of people who will need to take advantage of universal credit in future are literate and have internet access. We know from government research that the penetration of digital technology is increasing and will continue to do so. It is the two lowest deciles of income distribution in terms of household income that I continue to lose sleep about—people who earn less than £10,000 a year. We have been hearing about some of these acute problems and they are just as acute as they were in 2012. I understand that we have to hasten slowly to get this right, but we have to find a better way of informing Parliament about what is going on. I think the next set of detailed guidance that we can expect—my spies tell me and my spies are everywhere—will be in the late summer of 2014 and the next substantial rollout might not be until the spring of 2015. How are we, as parliamentarians, to keep up with what is actually going on? Reading the newspapers is not always helpful because, although they can highlight some of the problems, they do not tell the whole story.
I make a plea to the Minister. Can he think about ways of dealing with this other than Motions of Regret? It is a game we can all play, and we could do it every month if we had to, but I think there is a more grown-up way of accepting that, for the next two years and, indeed, for the rest of this Parliament, there will be periods when the Government could find a parliamentary opportunity for us to have a sensible discussion, be given reassurances and ask these detailed questions which are so important, not just to us, but to the people outside.
I agree with everything that has been said about the monthly payment, particularly by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. That is probably my biggest worry. I know that she has more expertise than I about the split payments, but I listened carefully to what she had to say and I think that her questions deserve answers. The additional problem of behavioural change, on top of everything else, is something that is too dangerous, and I wish we were not doing it at all. Maybe we could do it in future, when this gets straightened out, but it is too risky to do it in this way.
My final point before I sit down, because it is late, is that the SSAC has done a very good job. I still remember the long look I got down the ministerial nose when I suggested this at the beginning. This was my idea, because I thought it would help. Luckily, the Minister eventually took my advice. The SSAC has done a remarkable job and I hope that the Minister will continue to involve it. Although it does not have any statutory control over guidance, if we get to the position where guidance is needed, such as in the definition of what is vulnerable, and we cannot get that clear with the stakeholders that the SSAC knows and works with so well, then we will be lost when this gets implemented. I hope that the Minister will give us an assurance that the SSAC will have a key and continuing role in this evaluation and monitoring process. Otherwise, it will be more difficult to achieve successfully.
Housing: Under-Occupancy Charge
Baroness Hollis of Heigham Excerpts(10 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Knight of Weymouth
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have any plans to suspend the under-occupancy charge.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Knight of Weymouth, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con)
My Lords, there are no plans to suspend the removal of the spare-room subsidy policy. A formal evaluation of the policy is being carried out; this has already commenced and will be conducted over the next two years. To support people transitioned to this reform, we have more than trebled the discretionary housing payment fund to assist those facing extreme difficulties.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, two-thirds of the families affected are disabled—fact. Half of those in a recent sample are already in arrears—fact. Most local authorities are limiting discretionary payments to three months only—fact. Furthermore, there are no smaller properties to move to—fact. So disabled families cannot work, pay, obtain financial support or move. When will the Government have the guts to admit that their policy is impossible as well as cruel and follow our commitment to repeal it?
Lord Freud
My Lords, there were a lot of issues buried there. I will just point out that, when you look at the disabled figures, and if you look at the people on DLA, which is an independent measure, the figure comes down to 27% of the total. For those with the higher rate of DLA, it is 17%. I also remind the Opposition that this is a substantial saving measure. Some £500 million has to be found, and there is a degree of cynicism about whether you can find that through closing tax loopholes. I also ask the Opposition a question—
Property: Under-occupancy Charge
Baroness Hollis of Heigham Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Freud
My Lords, the purpose of DHPs specifically for the disabled in heavily adapted houses and homes is to make sure that they can stay there indefinitely. Clearly, it would not make sense for people to move when there would be a high cost of adapting a new premise. As I have said, it is too early to know what is happening in different local authorities. The information I have up to now from our intensive interrelationship with local authorities on this matter is that there is a great deal of variation in outcomes.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, the Minister assumes that the Government will make £490-odd million of savings from the bedroom tax on the assumption that most tenants will stay put and take the hit. That is where the saving is coming from. However, all the evidence from housing associations, including my own, and local authorities shows that something like 30% of tenants will move, largely into the private rented sector, where rents, and therefore housing benefit, will be higher. Does the Minister accept that to send 660,000 families into misery for the sake of something like £50 million of net savings in the public sector is not only cruel but profoundly indecent?
Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill
Baroness Hollis of Heigham Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Knight of Collingtree
I, too, strongly support what the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, has said, and I supported the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, in her earlier efforts. It is extremely disappointing to be told, “Not now, another time” or, “Not tomorrow” or, “In a little while”. How do we know that it is going to be a little while? We have no idea. Reviews do not normally take a little while and even then they may not be successful.
I do not doubt the sincerity of the noble Lord, Lord Alli, and his genuine support for the idea behind this, but we are told every time, “Yes, we agree with what you say but this is not the vehicle in which to do it”. What we need to be told is, if this is not, what is? We need some idea of that because the injustices mount as the years go by. Many people, who would have been helped if the original amendment had gone through, are now gone. They are dead, finished; they faced burdens which they need not have faced. I, for one, am not prepared to sit here year after year and hear, “Tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow”. Tomorrow never comes.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, nine years ago I took part in this debate, as did many others in your Lordships’ House. I was deeply moved then, as was the noble Lord, Lord Alli, by the cases and arguments put by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, which were repeated so eloquently today by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech.
I agreed absolutely that we need to address the problem of inheritance for people—they may be sisters or may not even be blood relatives—who none the less share a home for a long time and then face the problem of an inheritance tax which could push them into the shadows of residential care. I absolutely accept that that must be addressed. I hoped at the time we argued this, and still hope, that this should be addressed by the Treasury agreeing, very simply—it does not need legislation—that you can roll up inheritance tax on the first death to the death of the second person. As I understand it, that is all one needs to do. The state is not denied any money, but the sibling or carer who is left does not have the threat of losing their home held over them. That is the way to go. When it comes to extending or even considering this as part of an extension of civil partnerships, I obviously have no problem with this being part of a review, but I had two fundamental objections nine years ago and they remain for me today to consider this as possibly an extension of the civil partnership.
First, a civil partnership has a legal entry and a legal exit, which is equivalent to divorce. Take, for example, a mother and daughter who enter into a civil partnership, in good faith, partly to protect the home. The daughter may be in her forties or fifties; her mother dies, she inherits and is protected. If she is in a civil partnership and five years down the line meets a man whom she chooses to marry, she has to divorce her mother—her civil partner—to enter into a new marriage with a man. She may alternatively decide that when her mother has died and that civil partnership has ended she will form another civil partnership with her own grown-up son. Therefore the property cascades down the generations without ever touching the Treasury at any point.
This can be done through a revision of inheritance tax. It cannot in my view be done through a civil partnership which has to be divorced before you can enter another one or, indeed, before you enter a marriage. The notion that a daughter can divorce a mother in order to marry somebody else, or that a sister and brother can divorce each other because they each wish to marry someone else brings the notion of civil partnership, its ceremonies of entering and its divorce, into disrepute.
The second problem, which is why I was engaged fairly heavily the last time round, is that you cannot separate inheritance advantages from social security liability. If two people, whether they are a carer and the person cared for, a mother and a daughter, or a brother and a sister, enter a civil partnership in the hope of avoiding or postponing inheritance tax, they take on mutual responsibility for each other in social security. That means, for example, that if a frail elderly mother and a son enter a civil partnership to spare the son a big inheritance tax bill, he becomes wholly financially responsible for his mother, if he can afford it. For the first time ever, he will be means-tested for his mother’s support; his mother will have no independent rights to social security benefits because she will be his dependant. If he can afford to pay for her, the state does not need to. She loses her independence of social security income because the son, by virtue of the civil partnership, has taken on that responsibility.
I could enlarge on that, but noble Lords can see the consequences. If a sister and a brother enter into a civil partnership, then they become mutually financially responsible for each other in social security terms, including children and the like. The problem is that one cannot separate out the upside, in terms of inheritance law, for carers, or for a mother and a daughter or for sisters, without taking on, in all fairness, the downside of responsibility for social security.
I suggest to your Lordships that for every couple who gain through inheritance, there will be three or five poorer people, with no wealth to enjoy at inheritance and who have fairly modest incomes now, who will be losers. I do not think your Lordships would want that to happen. All I suggest is that noble Lords review and press to review the situation of inheritance tax and the ability to roll it up. In that way I think that we address the problem.
Lord Cormack
Does the noble Baroness not accept that we are not suggesting that where these other relationships exist a civil partnership is compulsory? Her whole argument is based on the assumption that it is compulsory.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, if there is to be a relationship recognised as an extension of the concept of civil partnerships for inheritance tax, it also produces a responsibility for mutual financial support called social security. The one goes with the other. The way around it is something that I think my Government should have explored, and that I hope the current coalition Government will explore; the noble Baroness, Lady Knight of Collingtree, was absolutely right about this. We should see a way of avoiding a survivor, particularly in the case of the two elderly sisters who went to the courts, having the inheritance abated on the first person and being rolled over to the second death. That seems to me to protect the position of the two sisters, which I think we were all deeply moved by, but would avoid the long-term problem of social security which would otherwise follow.
Baroness Deech
I think that the noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, have misunderstood my point. Of course there would be no question of making anybody enter any sort of contract of union. I am sure they would sit down and work out whether it was worth doing because of inheritance tax, and then of course they would—and should—happily take on the duty of supporting each other. However, if they do not want to, and they want their benefits, then that is it; there is no question of dropping this on them without their consent. There would have to be some sort of formality.
Social Security (Disability Living Allowance, Attendance Allowance and Carer’s Allowance) (Amendment) Regulations 2013
Baroness Hollis of Heigham Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Thomas of Winchester
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for giving us this opportunity to raise again the issue of PIP and the higher rate mobility component. This, of course, is the gateway to the Motability scheme which enables so many disabled people—including myself—to get about. I declare that interest.
I shall say a word about PIP in general, but turning to these regulations, I am pleased that Motability has stated that it aims to avoid recovering vehicles from hospital in-patients affected by this change. If the car has been adapted to suit the claimant’s condition, then it could be very expensive for a Motability car to be recovered and for the claimant to apply again when he or she comes out of hospital, and another Motability car has to be adapted in due course. Presumably the payment of the higher rate mobility component of DLA will continue to be paid if a person is in hospital for more than four weeks. Perhaps the Minister could tell me if that is the case.
Turning to other matters, I am very glad that the DWP is reopening the consultation which it failed to do on the final version of the PIP criteria. Even though the amending regulations should make the position clear, none of us who has taken part in these discussions has any confidence that the assessors will properly take the criteria in the amending regulations into account—even though they are mandatory. I hope that the new consultation will not be an empty exercise and that the DWP will take on board what disabled people say and change the original criteria if the consultation makes it clear that this should happen.
One matter which I am very disturbed about is the figure of 600,000 claimants that the Government say will disappear from their books once PIP is introduced. Where did the DWP get this figure from? Is it saying that these people are not disabled enough, or that they are now receiving DLA fraudulently? How closely is it in touch with the Department of Health, which might be able to enlighten it about improvements in treatments for many disabled people, meaning that they are likely to live longer with their disabilities?
The mantra we hear constantly is that PIP is to be targeted at those who need it most. However, although that sounds good and right, it is actually pretty meaningless because DLA and PIP are not to be means-tested. So one is left with a subjective judgment by a DWP decision-maker—heavily influenced by the assessor. Without targets, how will the decision-maker judge one person against another? Outside the Chamber, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said they would need the judgment of Solomon. Instead, they have the judgment of Atos. I know which I prefer.
Tonight we heard more from the noble Lord about the Atos contracts, so I shall not repeat those facts, which are very disturbing. In general, I supported the move to PIP, because of the inadequacy of the DLA form, but there are too many question marks over the whole process for me to have any confidence in it any more.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
I want to make three brief points, but first declare an interest. Two members of my extended family have Motability cars and they are their lifeline. I shall make a point about statistics, one about appeals and finally a point about isolation. I shall try to be quick because we are pressed for time.
On statistics, as I recall when we were doing the Welfare Reform Bill, we were told that something like 600,000 of those getting the higher rate DLA mobility component would drop and about 200,000 of those on a lower rate would go up, leaving a net loss of 400,000 people on DLA mob. As understand it from our debates at the time, something like 27% of those people converted their DLA higher rate mob into a car. Therefore it means we are talking about the loss of potentially 180,000 Motability cars from disabled people who are dependent upon them. These are cars which in many cases have been extremely expensively adapted to them and therefore are of relatively little use for people following after, because they have been customised. This leaves the disabled person without any ability to afford alternative transport, because they too cannot afford those adaptations done by Motability. So on my first point about statistics, I think we are dealing with about 180,000 cars. If the Minister can correct me on this, I should be pleased to know, but it is a huge number.
Secondly, there are appeals. At the moment, between 40% and 50% of all appeals on DLA are successful. One reason is that there is often a considerable time between the DLA assessment and the appeal, by which point someone may have got worse or, possibly, better and, as a result, the evidence is contested. The problem is the length of time taken to hear the appeal. If it takes six months to hear an appeal against Atos, you lose your car after one month, you win your appeal, but then you have to wait for a new car with all the expensive adaptations while 180,000 cars are effectively on the scrapheap, that seems a foolish and unwise use of money.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
The Minister knows what the figures were in the past; why can he not project them forward? I am relying on memory now, of debates we had 18 months ago, but am I not right in thinking that he told us at the time that something like 29% of those in receipt of higher rate mobility turned it into a Motability vehicle. If that figure is correct, which I believe it to be, then he can surely extrapolate that to the numbers of gross losers coming down from high rate DLA mobility, which I understand, again relying on memory, was 600,000. Therefore, 29% of 600,000 brings me to my 180,000 figure. What is wrong with that figure?
Lord Freud
The reason that it is wrong is that we do not know that the Motability figure lines up at that same percentage into the mobility. That is the reason. As a rule of thumb, it is one way of going, but we actually do not know whether or not the kind of people who will maintain their higher rate mobility will be the ones with Motability. That is the issue.
One of the questions that the noble Baroness was particularly concerned about in this area was the heavily adapted cars, and I think she described it as the foolishness of moving a heavily adapted car back. I emphasise that only 2% of Motability cars are heavily adapted, so this is a much smaller problem; most are just standard cars.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
I was a patron—or something or other—of Motability, and that is certainly not my experience. They may be standard cars but they have been adapted to make them comfortable. Even people who drove ordinary cars beforehand transferred to a Motability car in order to get the adaptations and so on which made it comfortable as well as possible for them to drive. Obviously I am in no position to argue with his 2% figure, but I suspect from my own experience that another 20%, 30% or 40% will be using a Motability car which, to some extent or other, has been personalised or tailored for their use.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I do not think we have time to debate what heavily adapted comprises. However, the figure for cars heavily adapted for a disabled person is 2%. Clearly, we all personalise cars to some extent. I can let the noble Baroness have some more information on that to the extent that I have it, but that is the figure that I have. I confirm that the noble Lord, Lord Sterling, is looking carefully at how Motability can help to mitigate the impact for those who may be affected by the move to PIP.