Carer’s Assistance (Carer Support Payment) (Scotland) Regulations 2023 (Consequential Modifications) Order 2023

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 14th November 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I once again thank the noble Viscount for the detail of what the statutory instrument does and does not do. It seems to me that it purely ensures that the carer support payment in Scotland is treated the same as carer’s allowance. That seems to be a good idea. I cannot see why anyone could disagree. It also seeks to ensure that there is no double claiming by playing one set of regulations off against another set. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm my understanding of that is correct because, if it is correct, it seems very sensible. Could he come back to Parliament or write about how these regulations are being observed and give examples of success or failure? I think that to some extent his final comments cover this. I think he was referring to what had happened in the past. I am looking forward to an ongoing report about how these new regulations will help and to examples of success or failure. They need to be monitored in some way. I hope the Minister will be able to oblige as the situation evolves.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, as we have heard, this order relates to people who will be eligible for the new carer support payment, which is replacing carer’s allowance in Scotland. As the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, indicated, it covers two issues, one around benefit entitlement and the other around trying to avoid duplicate or overlapping benefits.

First, the order aims to ensure that people who get carer support payment are treated in the same way as those receiving carer’s allowance when it comes to entitlement to reserved benefits.

Three reserve benefits are named in the order, and the Minister referenced them in his opening speech: the Christmas bonus, the additional amount for qualifying carers on pension credit, and compensatory payments due in quite complicated circumstances under the HMRC tax-free childcare scheme. Is that a comprehensive list? Are there any other payments to which someone on carer’s allowance could be entitled which were not mentioned here or indeed in the order?

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[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I start again by thanking both the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, and the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. This is familiar territory but I thank them for their broad support. I will attempt to answer the questions that were raised, again in no particular order.

The first question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, was simply what this order does. I tried to set that out in my opening statement but perhaps I can answer it in a different way. This particular order, and an associated negative Section 104 order, makes provision in reserved areas to ensure that the 2023 regulations are fully operational at the time of implementation. It ensures that individuals in receipt of carer support payment are treated, as I said earlier, in the same way as individuals in receipt of carer’s allowance. That might answer a question that was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, on the treatment. It is similar treatment but in my opening remarks I alluded to some differences that were going to come through from the Scottish Government, particularly in terms of the treatment of students. As we know, of course, there are different educational arrangements for students in Scotland compared to England. I hope I made that clear in my opening remarks, in terms of the—

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

Just to clarify, what I was trying to say in the question was that the Minister had identified a couple of areas—one about residence requirements, the other about students—where people who are not currently entitled to claim carer’s allowance would be able to claim the new benefit. I was asking whether it was also the other way round; is there anyone who would not be entitled to the new benefit who is entitled to carer’s allowance, and if so, whose job is it to contact them? The Scottish Government would arguably have no locus in relation to them.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I must admit—please forgive me—that I thought that was a separate question, but I remember it and I shall try to answer it at some point.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, asked whether the order ensures that there is no double claiming. He wanted me to confirm that there is no double claiming, double counting or duplication—and I can confirm just that. I hope that I set that out in my opening remarks as well; that is also the aim, and also comes about from the very close collaboration of working that we have with the Scottish Government and, indeed, other parties that I mentioned in my opening speech.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, asked about the future, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock. On learning lessons and what we will gain from this order, particularly looking north of the border, can I say two things? One is that I have no doubt that there will be a way of finding out whether the three pilots mentioned were successful, however one might define that. I confirm that it is very much a matter for the Scottish Government — so this is an enabling series of regulations, which will enable the Scottish Government in a devolved manner to do what they feel is right. But I have no doubt that there will be a way in which we can find out.

On the noble Baroness’s point about learning from this—absolutely, she makes a very good point. When these different regulations are made in the right and proper way for the devolved nations, we should and will be, with our close collaboration, learning from any lessons that might be beneficial for us in England.

The noble Baroness asked how people should apply for the carer support payment. The application process is a matter for the Scottish Government, and questions on this should be addressed to them. That is not entirely helpful, but it falls in line with my point, which is that this is enabling the Scottish Government to make the changes that they will take forward themselves.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I was trying very carefully to ask questions of the Minister that related to his responsibilities and those of DWP, not the Scottish Government. I was not asking about how somebody would go about applying for the new benefit. There was reference in the order and Explanatory Memorandum to people being transferred from carer’s allowance to the new benefit. Until someone is transferred, the DWP has a responsibility for them. I was asking whether they could make any contact with those to whom they are currently paying carer’s allowance or whether they were leaving that entirely to the Scottish Government.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Unless there is a ready answer to that, I think that gets into the granularity of the transfer process, and I shall need to write to the noble Baroness to give her some proper information on that. Again, I make the point that there is a close collaboration between the UK and Scottish Governments. It is a fair question, and I think that I need to get some granular detail on that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked about impact assessments. The answer is that orders made under the Scotland Act 1998 usually do not in themselves have a direct or indirect impact, whether benefit or cost, on businesses, charities or the voluntary sector, and would not therefore have a regulatory impact assessment. This is the case for this particular order. The noble Baroness may be aware—and I just want to confirm—that this is quite usual for constitutional measures in this respect. Implementing this order is not expected to have an impact on business, charities or voluntary bodies, and there is also not expected to be a significant impact on the public sector. The appropriate impact assessments were undertaken for the Carer’s Assistance (Carer Support Payment) (Scotland) Regulations 2023, when these regulations were prepared. No further assessments were required, as this order is a consequence of the 2023 regulations.

I have a couple of other questions that I should like to answer, which may help the noble Baroness with one of her earlier questions. I was asked when the Scottish Government would start and complete the transfer of individuals from carer’s allowance to the carer support payment. This may be helpful—I hope that it answers the question. From February 2024, the Scottish Government will begin the process of transferring the awards of around 130,000 people getting carer’s allowance in Scotland to carer support payments—it will be initiated by them. This will include around 40,000 carers with underlying entitlement only—carers who have entitlement to carer’s allowance but are receiving another overlapping benefit instead. Case transfer is a joint project between the Scottish Government and the DWP, which we intend to complete as soon as possible, while ensuring that the process is safe and secure. Case transfer for all disability and carer benefits remains on track to complete by the end of 2025.

The noble Baroness asked about similarities and differences in eligibility between the two benefits. I covered some of that in my opening speech, but this might answer one question that she asked. No one is eligible for the carer’s allowance who is not eligible for the carer support payment. That may be the succinct answer that she was looking for.

I hope that I have answered all questions. Again, as ever—with the number of questions that the noble Baroness rightfully usually asks—I normally look, and this case will definitely look, at Hansard, to be absolutely sure that I have answered them all. In the meantime, I beg to move.

Pensions Act 2004 and the Equality Act 2010 (Amendment) (Equal Treatment by Occupational Pension Schemes) Regulations 2023

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 14th November 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for a very helpful introduction to these orders and particularly for explaining the background to the court cases, which will make reading Hansard for this debate a bit more comprehensible than might otherwise have been the case. I also thank my noble friend Lady Drake, to whose comments I shall return, and the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, whose confidence in my determination to expose the detail and minutiae I trust will not be disappointed.

All these regulations are a product of Brexit, the gift that keeps on giving. I shall start with the draft Pensions Act 2004 (Amendment) (Pension Protection Fund Compensation) Regulations 2023—the other way around from the Minister. As we have heard, it was prompted by two court decisions: the Hampshire court judgment, whereby the ECJ found that former employees should get at least half the value of their accrued pension benefits if their employer was insolvent before they hit pension age, and Hughes, when the High Court disapplied the cap on PPF compensation for those below normal pension age on the date of the employer’s insolvency.

These regulations amend the Pensions Act 2004 to ensure that affected scheme members receive at least the minimum level of protection due under the Hampshire judgment and remove reference to the PPF cap. Also, interestingly, they clarify how the Hampshire judgment is being implemented by providing a calculation of PPF compensation by reference to a one-off valuation, as approved by the Court of Appeal in Hughes.

As has been noted, action is needed because, under Section 4 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, the principles of EU law will sunset at the end of this year and cease to have effect, including where the position has changed as a result of court cases, which is very relevant to us today. The purpose of these regulations is to ensure that the effects of the Hampshire and Hughes judgments will be preserved in domestic legislation. Could the Minister confirm for the record that nothing will change from the current position once these regulations take effect and the relevant EU retained law has sunsetted?

Secondly, paragraph 10.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum reports that the DWP met with a cross-section of representatives of the pensions industry to seek views on its proposed response to the Hampshire judgment. There was broad support for retaining the effects of the judgment—but anybody who has worked in government will know that “broad support” can cover quite a range of views being expressed in the room. Out of interest, was there any opposition to retaining the effects of the Hampshire judgment and, if so, on what grounds? I am just interested in who was in the room.

I have read the draft Pensions (Pension Protection Fund Compensation) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023, which look on the face of it to be identical to the regulations I have just discussed, but amending the Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 2005 instead of the Pensions Act 2004. Can the Minister confirm for the record that the effect of those regulations will be the same as the other ones, but just in Northern Ireland rather than in Great Britain? When regulations are this technical, it is important for the Committee to hear from the Minister what the intention is rather than just taking my word for it—love of detail notwithstanding.

I turn to the draft Pensions Act 2004 and the Equality Act 2010 (Amendment) (Equal Treatment by Occupational Pension Schemes) Regulations 2023—these are not catchy titles. These regulations were also prompted by court cases. In the Allonby case—I take the Minister’s point that this is being retained only inasmuch as it relates to GMPs, not its broader findings—the ECJ found that an opposite-sex comparator was not needed to demonstrate discrimination, where that was caused by legislation. In the Walker case, the UK Supreme Court found on the basis of EU equality law that legislation could not allow occupational pension schemes to restrict survivor benefits for survivors of same-sex civil partnerships or marriages so that only contributions from 5 December 2005 matter, when these became possible.

Something the Minister said confused me a little. I think he said that the Government were restating the law to avoid and remove any ambiguity. From reading these judgments, I understood that their contents have so far been resting on retained EU law and that, when that sunsets, there will be nothing supporting them. I may have misunderstood, so perhaps the Minister could clarify that. I understood—or perhaps misunderstood —that these regulations were necessary because without them the contents of those court judgments would not be retained.

Presumably, the Government could have amended domestic law to bring it in line with all these judgments. We have had an awful lot of pensions Bills in the last year; presumably any one of them would have been a means for doing this. Can the Minister explain why that did not happen? Since retained EU law rights will sunset at the end of the year, we need changes to be made. These regulations amend the Equality Act to remove the need for an opposite-sex comparator and they amend the Pensions Act 2004 to introduce the same test for unequal treatment when members are entitled to payments from the PPF. They also amend Schedule 9 to the Equality Act 2010 to reflect the framework directive rights with which the legislation was deemed incompatible.

Will the Minister confirm for the record that the effect of these changes is to maintain the position we are in now, resting on retained EU law? Is the position of the survivors of all marriages and civil partnerships now the same, whatever the sex of either the surviving or the deceased member? Is everybody, in any civil partnership or marriage, in the same position, irrespective of the sex of those involved?

These regulations retain one form of protection, as my noble friend Lady Drake articulated, but still we are left with a significant gender pensions gap, an issue to which the House returns periodically. There are various contributory factors, including the carer penalty and the impact of the gender pay gap that means women are more likely to have lower pension contributions. What plans do the Government have for reforms to reduce the gender pensions gap more widely?

One of the contributory factors is the fact that women are less likely to be eligible for auto-enrolment, so will the Minister tell the Committee when the Government intend to implement the provisions of the Private Member’s Bill sponsored by the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, which enabled the extension of auto-enrolment from age 18 and set contributions from the first £1 of earnings?

As far as I can tell, the draft Occupational Pension Schemes (Amendment) (Equal Treatment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023 seem to mirror the provisions of the previous regulations but amend the Equal Pay Act (Northern Ireland) 1970 and the Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 1995, instead of the Equality Act and the Pensions Act. Once again, can the Minister confirm that the effect will be the same, albeit just in Northern Ireland?

Finally, I am really interested to hear the Minister’s response to the question from my noble friend Lady Drake: given how close we are now to the end of this year, are there any other areas where DWP has been relying on retained EU law that will be sunsetted in a few weeks? A clear assurance to the Committee for the record would be very helpful on that point. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the three noble Lords who have spoken for their general support for these regulations. The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, was right when she alluded to there being an element of complexity but, if I may say so, all four of us have seen through that complexity. I appreciate the general support. Nevertheless, I am very aware that a number of questions were raised and, as ever, I will do my best to answer them, in no particular order.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, asked about the WASPI. I understand exactly why he raised that. He will probably expect the only answer that I can give: we are not able to comment on the status of the WASPI at the moment because, as he will be aware, there is an ombudsman investigation ongoing. He has probably heard me say that in the Chamber before; I wish I could say something different, but I am afraid I cannot go any further.

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[Baroness Drake (Lab)]

I will need to read very carefully what the Minister said—hopefully it will cover all of the points, but, if not, I will drop him a note.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

On that last point, the Minister mentioned the Private Member’s Bill, but my question was actually about when the Government were planning to implement its provisions—perhaps he could give me a steer on that. I would be grateful if he would read Hansard because, if he thinks that he has answered the questions, I perhaps did not shape them as precisely as I had intended. Could he have a look at that and then come back to me?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Most certainly— I am grateful that the noble Baroness has put me right on the precise question. I knew what she was asking at the time. On the timing and where we are with the rollout of the Private Member’s Bill, I do not have that to hand—actually, it has been handed to me, so perhaps I do; it is one I prepared earlier. The consultation on implementation is coming soon—I am aware that a consultation comes out of that Private Member’s Bill—but, in terms of actual dates, I am afraid I cannot go any further. But I hope that that directly answered that particular question. I feel that a letter is due. A lot of questions were asked about exactly how this should be, and I pledge to answer them all fully if I have not done so this afternoon.

Health: Migraines

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 24th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Lord, who has more experience in these matters than me, is quite right. My understanding is that, where an employee suffers from migraine, if the employer does not take it seriously or make certain allowances, this has a great detrimental effect on the employee. The noble Lord will know that the law says someone is disabled if they have a physical or mental impairment that has a

“substantial and long-term adverse effect”

on their

“ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities”,

including work. There is work to be done engaging more with employers to make sure they have that understanding.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, can we clear that up? The Migraine Trust has had many sufferers saying they have been discriminated against at work. Some are forced into part-time jobs or even out of work. Given that the top triggers for migraine in the workplace include lighting, noise, stress, screens—things that employers could control—is the Minister concerned that, according to a Migraine Trust survey, over half of people affected said their employer had not made reasonable adjustments for them to stay at work, even though, as the Minister has just said, the law requires them to do that? What does he have to say to that?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Baroness is completely right. This follows on from my answer to the noble Lord. It is very important that employers get the message that they must make reasonable adjustments. It also brings into question whether someone should say that they are suffering from migraines when, for example, they go to an interview. Nobody has to tell their employer or potential employer that they are disabled, where that would be the right word to use. As I have said, more work must be done to ensure that employers have a greater understanding. It is of course in their interests to do so because, with that understanding, the employee’s productivity will be greater.

Employment and Support Allowance

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Wednesday 18th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I have listened very carefully to my noble friend and have every sympathy. It might help to know that we are looking very carefully at the descriptors for those who are disabled and who may or may not be able to return to the workplace or even take up work. Those descriptors, as part of the WCA, are being particularly considered in terms of the focus on mobility, continence and social engagement. A lot of work is going on in this area; it is being done at pace but also with a great deal of empathy and care.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, let me follow on from what the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, has very movingly said. As the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, described, we are now in a position where those who are out of the labour market long-term because of ill health are the single biggest challenge facing our economy. Whenever we have this conversation, the Minister mentions different initiatives. However, as we now have 2.6 million people who are out of the labour market long-term, and we know that, for example, 23% of them want a job, that is 600,000 people who are desperate to get back to work but need appropriate help. Instead of having a series of schemes, is it not time to make sure that the core DWP, jobcentres and all the staff understand what they are dealing with when it comes to applications and to helping people to get back to work? The country needs it, and so do they.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

That is exactly what we are doing. We have been recruiting at pace more experts for the jobcentres and, as the noble Baroness will know, are consulting on the conditionalities and descriptors. It is quite right that we engage with the public and other stakeholders to make sure that we get this right. She will know that the WCA focus is a more rapid matter compared to the National Disability Strategy, which is a much more long-term thing. We are taking this very seriously; she is quite right to point this out, but a lot is going on and it will lead to results.

State Pensions: Canada Free Trade Agreement

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Wednesday 18th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, whether there are brackets or not, obviously I will need to go back and check myself what the website says. As I say, people move abroad for many reasons and, before they do so, I am certain that they look at all the pros and cons. It is also their responsibility to take advice and make an informed decision before they move. However, I hope it gives some reassurance that there is information—I hope it is not limited—on GOV.UK as to what the effect of going abroad will be on entitlement to UK state pensions. That is, as I say, just one factor that people will be bearing in mind when making that decision, difficult or otherwise, to move from the UK.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, to come back to Canada for a moment, this was quite an issue in the Canadian media—I am sure the Minister has read the cuttings—but is he aware that last year the Canadian media reported on a woman who got a letter from the DWP telling her that her pension was being stopped and there was no right of appeal? The reason was that she had failed to reply to a letter demanding she return a certificate proving she was still alive. It then turned out that this had happened to thousands of people, none of whom had got the letter. The Canadian media reported that the DWP blamed the Canadian postal system, but this must be a challenge: if you never get a letter, you do not know you are meant to reply to it. You cannot send the certificate back, then you get a letter telling you your pension is over and you cannot appeal, and the DWP will communicate with you only by post. Has this been resolved and how can future pensioners be sure they do not get caught the same way?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I cannot deny that the noble Baroness makes a very good point. I will certainly go back and look at the specific case she has raised. I think she is saying that it extends to others, and I will certainly look at that. As far as I am concerned, the Government should be—and I will check on this—making every communication available for individuals who are seeking to move abroad, particularly to Canada, to have as much of the correct information as possible that they need in order to make all the decisions to make that move.

Pensions (Extension of Automatic Enrolment) (No. 2) Bill

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

3rd reading
Monday 18th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate and thank my honourable friend Jonathan Gullis on initiating this Private Member’s Bill in the other place. I also thank my honourable friend the Pensions Minister, Laura Trott, my noble friend Lord Younger, the Lords Minister, DWP officials and the Bill team, the Public Bill Office, the Lords Library and the Lords clerks.

This Bill reflects the strong cross-party support in both Houses and continued political consensus on auto-enrolment. In that regard, I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Sherlock and Lady Drake, whose work on the Pensions Commission recommended automatic enrolment, and the noble Lords, Lord Davies and Lord Palmer, for their speeches supporting the Bill, which paves the way for half a million younger people and at least 2.5 million older workers to build bigger pensions, particularly for the low paid. I look forward to the promised early consultation to confirm the details and timing of the regulations, which will see the provisions of the Bill implemented by all employers. I beg to move.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, for piloting the Bill through this House and I share her thanks to the Minister and his team, and all noble Lords who participated. Auto-enrolment is a much-loved child with more than one parent. As the noble Baroness said, the work came from the Pensions Commission, set up by the last Labour Government and on which my noble friend Lady Drake and the noble Lord, Lord Turner, served with such distinction. The coalition Government implemented it in 2012, and there has been a welcome growth as a result in the number of people saving for a pension. We can all celebrate that—but, as we noted at Second Reading, pensions adequacy is still an issue, so we need to look at continually improving auto-enrolment and addressing the question of the gender pensions gap, which remains a matter of serious concern.

This simple, permissive Bill would allow the Government to make progress in fulfilling their commitment by implementing some of the 2017 review measures, namely reducing the lower age limit for being auto-enrolled and removing the lower earnings limit. The Minister confirmed at Second Reading that the Government were still committed to doing that in the mid-2020s. Without wishing to be depressing, as 2023 begins its descent towards the sea, I wonder if the Minister can give us any hint as to whether 2024 might be the year, or is this gently rolling into the grass beyond the election?

The Opposition fully support this Bill. I thank again all those involved in proposing it and look forward to its passage.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate my noble friend Lady Altmann on piloting this excellent Bill to its final stages. As I said at Second Reading, it has the full backing of His Majesty’s Government, and I am pleased to reiterate that support today. As the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, has just said, the 2017 review measures will see hundreds of thousands more young workers brought into workplace pensions for the first time. Alongside this, 2.5 million existing savers will see their pension contributions grow. Removing the lower earnings limit will mean that every worker will be paying pension contributions from their first pound of earnings and benefit from an employer contribution. Overall, an extra £2 billion-worth would be saved a year.

I am grateful for the constructive scrutiny of the Bill from noble Lords on all sides of the House. I acknowledge the thoughtful interventions at Second Reading of the noble Baronesses, Lady Sherlock and Lady Drake, and the noble Lords, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Lord Davies of Brixton. If the House agrees to final passage today, the Government will look to play their part by consulting on how to implement the expansion of automatic enrolment at the earliest opportunity, which I hope gives some idea of the timescale to the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock. We hope that it could be later this year. We will then report to Parliament about how we intend to proceed in accordance with the provisions in the Bill. I am very pleased that there is cross-party support for my noble friend’s Bill, and I hope that this House will agree to its final passage today.

Work Capability Assessment Consultation

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 5th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and for advance sight of it. The way we support sick and disabled people in this country is of huge importance, both to the millions directly affected and their families and to our country as a whole, and it says something about who we are as a nation. Labour believes passionately that everyone who can should be able to access a decent job, with all the financial and other benefits that brings. That is why we have been so concerned at the Government’s failure to address the disability employment gap over such a long time. Nobody should be shut out of the workplace when, with the right help and support, they could be working.

We are now in a position where an astonishing 2.6 million people are out of work as a result of long- term sickness—the highest number ever, and up almost half a million since the pandemic. This is a serious problem for individuals and a challenge for our country. The Government have been warned for many years now that benefit assessments are not fit for purpose and, crucially, that unless we have a proper plan to support sick and disabled people, even more people will end up stuck out of work when they do not need or want to be.

So what can be done? Our approach has been to set out some serious plans in this area: to transform back-to-work help by personalising employment support and tackling the huge backlogs in our NHS and social care; by offering an “into work guarantee” so that people can try work without worrying about losing their benefits—something that has had widespread support both from the voluntary sector and within Parliament; to make sure that employment support meets local needs by devolving appropriately to local areas; and to make sure that, when disabled people get a job, they get the support they need when they need it, not several months down the line.

By contrast, this consultation is rather small in scope. The Statement seems to suggest that the Government have decided that the main problem is that too many people who undergo a work capability assessment are classed in the higher rate, and therefore the only way to solve that is to change the criteria. We will look at the outcome of this consultation carefully but let me ask a few questions of the Minister now.

Is the sole intention of this exercise to reduce the number of people who are classed as having limited capability for work and work-related activity? If so, by how many? Is there a target? The Statement says that the current situation

“is excluding significant numbers of people from receiving employment support”.

Will the Minister tell the House whether DWP could choose to offer employment support now to people who are deemed LCWRA?

If in future more of these millions of people were classed as simply having limited capability for work, rather than in the higher area, would that make any other difference to them, as opposed to just getting employment support? Might it affect how much money they were given to live on while they were waiting to get a job? Can the Minister tell us how these proposals will address the total inadequacy of decision-making, which causes untold stress and wastes millions of pounds?

The Minister pointed out that the Government have longer-term plans. The Health and Disability White Paper outlined plans to abolish the work capability assessment altogether and replace it with a single assessment, which will be the PIP—the personal independence payment assessment. I do not want to be mean, but PIP is hardly a model of good practice: 80% of PIP decisions get overturned at tribunal, and only 2% are down to new evidence. In any case, these plans are way in the future, beyond this Parliament. If the proposals contained in this consultation will not come in until 2025, when will we possibly see the plans that will not even be considered until after the next election? Will the Minister give us some idea of when, if his Government were returned to power—I accept that it is an “if”—they would expect to see those plans come to fruition?

We need a big plan now to help sick and disabled people who want to get back to work—after all, the backlog for Access to Work payments has trebled to 25,000 since the pandemic. Where are the proposals to bring that down? Where is the plan to slash the waiting lists for those who are struggling with anxiety and depression, which is keeping them out of the workplace? Where are the plans to give help to carers to support their sick and disabled loved ones so they can get back to work?

I understand what the Minister is trying to do, but the truth is that this is tinkering around the edges of a system which is failing sick and disabled people. It is not providing the help they need and, in the meantime, our NHS and social care, on which sick and disabled people depend more than anyone, is being run into the ground. We need more than this and we need it soon.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, what a mixed message there is in this Statement. The first page of the Statement that the Minister so kindly read says how successful the Government have been in getting people back to work and in the next part it tells us how we need to get more people into work. If ever a message was mixed, that is it. It is not a good story, and the fact that it needs consultation shows that. With all this so-called success, the Statement says that the policies are, in its words, “holding back human potential” so let us have the old idea of consultation.

Flexible and home working usually require that the employee has adequate access to space and technology to safely work. This is even more the case for someone with a disability. Will the Minister say whether the Government will also commit to extra funding for the aids, adaptions and technology required to take up work- from-home opportunities?

The Minister, in rereading the Statement, is suggesting removing descriptors. Will the Government also review additional descriptors, which can impact on someone’s ability to work? At the moment, fatigue is not a descriptor. However, we know that this is a significant symptom for people with long Covid, MS and pain conditions. Sitting at a desk—we know all about sitting on the Benches here in the Lords—for long periods, even for people who do not need to leave their house, may be no less fatiguing. Will the Minister consult to make sure a safety net is kept in place?

I am concerned about the consultation on substantial risk. We know that, for many people, engagement with the DWP can create anxiety and worsen their mental health. In doing his review, will the Minister take the opportunity to get his own house in order and make employment support a positive experience and not one that has, sadly, seen so many people come to harm and even take their own lives?

Finally, in the real world, when somebody comes before someone at the Department for Work and Pensions, how consistent will the DWP be in treating them in the way they should be treated? I am worried about the balance between helping people into work and forcing people—and I do mean forcing—to give up on support for those least fortunate in society.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I begin by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, for their points. The way I read it is that the consultation has broadly been accepted, but I understand that a number of questions have been raised and I will do my best to answer them.

First, there is some agreement that it is very important to support disabled people and to give them every opportunity, if they are not in work, to find a way of getting into it or to prepare for it. Hopefully, there is agreement to that extent. The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, is absolutely right that no one should be shut out of the workplace. We are at the forefront in wanting to do more to ensure that disabled people who want to and can work are able to do so. However, some disabled people may not be able to work; we are a compassionate country and it is important to make the point that, where they are generally unable to work, the state should step in and support them, as it does at the moment.

I take issue with what the noble Baroness said about the intention and scope. We believe that it is an important measure to look at the conditionalities during this eight-week consultation, because it is important to move quickly. It is part of a whole package of measures that the Government have taken and continue to take for the disabled, which includes, as the House will be aware, the national disability strategy and the disability action plan. I will expand on that to try to be helpful. By the way, the sole intention is not to do with figures —there is no target; it is not to do with that at all; it is to look more closely at who in the disabled diaspora might be willing to work and how they can be encouraged and helped into work or preparing for work.

To pick up a point from the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, as he will know, the consultation is inviting comments on the four descriptors: mobilising, continence, getting about and coping with social engagement. As the House will know, people are referred for a WCA when they report a health condition or disability which may prevent or limit their ability to work or undertake work preparation activities. Currently, the activities do not take account of somebody’s ability to work from home, as the Statement said. We have identified some activities as the most likely to be affected by modern changes in the workplace, including working from home and better support and understanding from employers around how to overcome barriers to work for disabled people and people with health conditions. To that extent, we are moving more quickly and offering this targeted approach as part of the consultation.

On our broader support, I remind the noble Baroness that we announced £2 billion at the Spring Budget 2023 to support disabled people and people with health conditions into work, including through WorkWell and universal support. We also increased our support offer to help people move back into work when they can with additional work coach time.

I will set out some figures for the House. Roughly 700,000 new benefit claimants go through a work capability assessment each year and we are seeing around 450,000 determined as having limited capability for work-related activity. Hopefully, that gives some scope of the population we are working within. Clearly, if we helped just 10% of that cohort, around 45,000 more people per year would be placed in a group in which they would receive the necessary help to get into employment.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I do not think the Minister answered some of the questions I asked—maybe he omitted to do so. I asked about the timing and whether a shift away from the higher rate to the lower rate would have any implications for the amount of money somebody got, for example. Did he miss those questions?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

This is unusual procedure. On the timing, I made it clear in the Statement that we will work through this consultation and receive the results. In terms of the results coming through, I mentioned 2025. I will certainly look at the other questions the noble Baroness raised and write to her, although I think there were probably just one or two.

Pensions (Extension of Automatic Enrolment) (No. 2) Bill

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 14th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, for introducing this Bill and all noble Lords who have spoken. The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, is right: we are a select band. However, we are none the worse for it. It is always interesting, and I learn something every time this particular band gets together, so it is a joy to be back here today.

I am grateful for the briefing we had on this matter and for some excellent paperwork supporting the Bill. As noble Lords have observed, it is a little strange: Private Members’ Bills must come from private Members. On some, however, the Government smile more readily than they do on others, and if they smile readily, the passage can be eased through both Houses. That is what we have today, so I am grateful that the Government have smiled on this one and I look forward to hearing the Minister talk about it at more length shortly.

I start by celebrating auto-enrolment itself as one of the great public policy successes of recent years. As the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, said, its origins lie in the work of the Pensions Commission set up by the last Labour Government, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Turner, and on which my noble friend Lady Drake and the late and greatly lamented Sir John Hills served with such distinction. The coalition Government implemented it in 2012, and there has been growth in the number of people saving for a pension as a result. We can all celebrate that. However, it is clear that pensions adequacy remains an issue; noble Lords have raised a variety of questions, from the gender pensions gap to people in multiple jobs to the gig economy—all of which need addressing. While this tiny Bill cannot do that, hopefully the Minister can give us a nod to show us which way the Government are thinking when it comes to addressing these problems.

This Bill would enable the extension of auto-enrolment in two directions. It would amend the Pensions Act 2008 to give powers to the Secretary of State to make regulations to do three simple things: to reduce the lower age limit at which eligible workers must be automatically enrolled or re-enrolled into a pension scheme by their employers; to remove the lower earnings limit—the LEL—from the qualifying earnings band so that contributions are calculated from the first pound earned; and to change the requirements of the annual review of the qualifying earnings band. As we have heard, the Government will have to bring forward a consultation, which I hope they will do soon. I look forward to hearing some tips on when that might happen. They would then have to bring forward regulations. This is only a permissive Bill, but it would enable the Government to fulfil some of the commitments they made in the 2017 review of auto-enrolment to introduce changes in the mid-2020s.

As we have heard, the Bill does not specify a new lower age limit, but the Government have previously committed to reducing the limit from 22 to 18 and the Explanatory Memorandum says that this is the policy intent. Although this is a Private Members’ Bill, the EM was produced by DWP, so presumably that makes it a government policy intent. Just for clarity, though, can the Minister confirm that it is the Government’s intention to reduce the lower age limit to 18? Is it also the Government’s intention to use these powers to remove the LEL from the qualifying earnings band? Maybe that is obvious, but it is always good to have these things on the record. Any indication on timing that the Minister could give us would also be helpful.

If these measures were introduced, while they would not solve all our problems, they would bring significant numbers of people either into the orbit of auto-enrolment or the possibility of employer contributions, including: those who are below the current qualifying age limit of 22; those who earn above the trigger point of £10,000 but are getting employers’ contributions only on earnings above the lower earnings limit who could then get them from the first pound; and those earning below the trigger point but above the LEL who are able to opt in but who, in future, could then get employers’ contributions from the first pound.

The impact assessment did a fine job of using the available data to model what could reasonably be modelled. It played around with likely participation and savings rates in various directions and concluded at para 5.18 that if in force in 2022-23, the combined proposals would increase total pension saving by £2 billion. Of this, £0.9 billion would be paid in employee contributions, £0.8 billion would be paid in employer contributions and £0.2 billion would be paid in income tax relief on employee contributions.

Of course, this is all dependent on assumptions about opt-out rates. Paragraph 8.10 of the impact assessment tells us:

“Between 4 and 5 per cent of employees who are automatically enrolled opt-out”.


It goes on to say that another 5% of employees who are auto-enrolled and start saving

“then make an active decision to stop saving whilst continuing to work”.

Paragraph 8.11 says that

“around 10 per cent of employees who are automatically enrolled either opt-out or actively cease saving in the first year”.

However, much of the participation data behind this was from the ONS’s annual survey of hours and earnings in 2020, which was of course before the cost of living crisis hit. Does either the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, or the Minister know what work has been done to assess whether this opt-out rate has changed or is likely to change in the current economic climate?

A number of other important questions have been asked by Members from across the House. As my noble friend Lady Drake said, it will be important for the Government to confirm in some detail when and how they will address the net pay issue. I hope that the Minister will be able to give both my noble friend and the House an assurance that the Government have plans to monitor and address any poor practices that might emerge among employers trying to stop young workers benefiting from auto-enrolment in the way this Bill and the Government envisage. I would also be grateful if the Minister could give the House any more information about the way in which the Government are engaging with key stakeholders, in particular employers, trade unions, consumer bodies and especially young people themselves.

Having raised these issues, I want to make it clear that the Opposition fully support this Bill, despite its limitations. My thanks go to all involved, including the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann. I also thank Joshua Osborne, a University of Sheffield student who was on a placement with me last week, for his work in preparing important information on this Bill. I thank all those who have spoken today and carry on supporting the important issue of pensions in our society. I wish the Bill well.

Child Support (Enforcement) Bill

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

3rd reading
Friday 14th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Pidding (Con)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Redfern, I have a few brief comments to make. I express my sincere gratitude to my noble friend for her stewardship of the Bill in this House. She has been struck down by that ghastly virus and cannot be with us today, but I am glad to say that she is making a good recovery.

It is an honour to pick up on the hard work of the noble Baroness, Lady Redfern, in introducing the Bill and leading both its Second Reading and Committee stage. I am pleased that the Bill has now reached its final stage in this House today. I thank the Minister and his officials for their support, as well as those noble Lords who supported the Bill on Second Reading. I am of course grateful to my honourable friend Siobhan Baillie MP for introducing the Bill in the other place, and to Katherine Fletcher MP, who stood in for Ms Baillie during Third Reading.

The Bill will make essential improvements to child maintenance processes. Crucially, it will get money to children more quickly. Finally, I say on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Redfern, what a privilege it has been to take the Bill through its stages in this House, and for me to follow up today. I hope that it can now move to Royal Assent and implementation as quickly as possible. I beg to move.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Redfern, for piloting the Bill through this House and, along with the rest of the House, wish her a speedy recovery. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pidding, for standing in for her today so crisply and effectively. Thanks are due too to the Minister and his team, both for their work on this Bill and for their briefing of Peers to help us understand the context in which it sits. I am grateful also to Gingerbread and the charities that work so hard in this area.

We on these Benches wholeheartedly support the principle that non-resident parents should pay child maintenance and that there should be enforcement for those who fail to pay. The Bill should make a small but welcome contribution to that end by speeding up the process by which the non-resident parent who is in arrears can be made to pay what they owe. I hope that in future, we will see a further reduction in the amount of child maintenance that goes unpaid. There is still work to be done to increase compliance with the child support regime and to ensure that it becomes the norm that both parents continue to support their children, whatever happens to their relationship with one another.

For now, I simply thank again the noble Baroness, Lady Redfern, and Siobhan Baillie MP, and wish the Bill well.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Pidding, speaking on behalf of the main sponsor of the Bill, my noble friend Lady Redfern, on ensuring that the Bill has reached its final stages. I wish my noble friend Lady Redfern a speedy recovery.

As mentioned at Second Reading, the Bill has the full backing of His Majesty’s Government, and it gives me great pleasure to speak in support of it today once again. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, for the thoughtful questions she raised at Second Reading. I hope the letter I sent in response has provided her with some clarity on the issues raised. I very much take note of her comments today.

This Government are committed to improving the support the Child Maintenance Service offers to separated families, so the Bill makes important improvements to CMS enforcement processes by amending existing powers. Once commenced, this will allow the Secretary of State to make an administrative liability order where the paying parent has failed to pay an amount of child maintenance, without the need to make an application to court.

On the point raised at Second Reading by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, who is not in his place, I would like to reassure the House that the central protections for paying parents will be provided through secondary legislation. This will give parents the right of appeal, while setting out some parameters around the appeal process. First, this will include the period within which the right of appeal may be exercised, and, secondly, the powers of the court in respect of such appeals. Secondary legislation will follow the affirmative procedure, so your Lordships will be able to debate the proposals eventually when they are put forward.

To conclude, I am very pleased that there is cross-party support for my noble friend’s Bill, and that this House will agree to its final passage today.

Pensions Dashboards (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Wednesday 12th July 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for bringing this statutory instrument to the Grand Committee. I have read the November debate and I look forward to a further detailed disposition from the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, with her usual forensic care. I will therefore not go into great detail; I am glad she will be winding up.

Can the Minister give me some reassurance? Compared to many others, I am coming new to this brief. Having looked through the regulations I see that there are no longer any binding interim dates, just one big deadline in 2026. Does the Minister not see how hard it will be to get busy pension schemes—commercial pension schemes—to prioritise this over their other day-to-day work? Other noble Lords have made the point about data being ready for dashboards. How much time will these pension schemes give to this, given that there are no interim dates and just one big date in 2026?

It seems to me that the issue is deadlines, and there is a need for the Government and pension schemes to nudge people to make sure that all details are up to date on the various pots so that they can pull that through to the dashboard when it is launched.

In a debate on 8 June, the Government elaborated on the need for dashboards to change the way people plan for retirement, and the Minister said that more time was needed to deliver this complex build. Paragraph 7.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum includes explanations. I have never seen so many explanations for why something has not happened:

“The technical solution has not been sufficiently tested, more work is needed to set up adequate support for industry with their connection journey and there is still work to do to finalise the necessary supporting guidance and standards”,


and so on. It is the biggest list of excuses for delay that I have come across for some time.

Other noble Lords have mentioned guidance in passing. Does the Minister believe that guidance will be sufficient to concentrate minds on the issue? I am not sure that guidance will be sufficient in many cases.

There are some small points, but I am not sure how they are addressed. I may have missed that somewhere, so I hope the Minister can provide me with an answer. For instance, how are widows’ and widowers’ rights to the pensions of their husband, wife or partner being dealt with? I had a similar case: I have a modest council pension pot and I asked what happens when I die; does my wife receive a contribution? That was six months ago and I still have not had a reply, and it is being dealt with by one of the very large pension funds. I would like some reassurance that these dashboards are not going to make the situation even worse.

In theory, pensions mainly apply to older people, although people seem to take them much earlier nowadays. It worries me that the whole idea of the dashboard is based on a knowledge and working use of IT. It may surprise noble Lords to learn that a lot of people do not use IT; many people just use their mobile phones to make calls. The whole principle of the dashboard and the way in which people access information is based on being able to operate an IT system. I have doubts because, even if the people concerned are not old now, as they get older and less able, when they will really want to know, they will be fiddling around not knowing how to get into the dashboard. Will we end up with big companies such as Aviva taking over pension schemes? I have no problems with Aviva. It seems to have taken over an awful lot, although it does quite well, but I am worried that many of the smaller pension funds will opt out.

Page 2 of the valuable impact assessment that was produced gives three options: do nothing, an alternative to legislation, and—the preferred option—the Government legislating. After reading all this, I wondered whether the first option, to do nothing, might have been safer, but we have to move forward.

We need to be careful, but we must say when this will happen, and the guidance has to be accepted by the pension funds so that they know when to do something, rather than waiting until October 2026 and saying, “Gosh, we have to do this by tomorrow”. My first point was that we need some interim dates to focus minds on this issue otherwise, as we were here a year ago and were here before then, we will be here again with another list of excuses, as detailed on this document.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction to these regulations and all noble Lords who have spoken. It is very nice to welcome the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, to the pensions dashboard crew; we look forward to having discussions with him on the later iterations of this project, which one sincerely hopes will not come to pass.

We have been very supportive of the pensions dashboard. Therefore, we agree with the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, that it is deeply regrettable that we are in this place and that the Pensions Dashboard Programme needed to be reset. I accept that my noble friend Lady Drake is right: if the digital architecture was not going to be ready to enable pension schemes to connect before the first deadline, which is the end of next month, it is clearly better to pause and get it right. After all, the dashboard service will enable access to trillions of pounds of assets and accrued benefits belonging to working people. It has to be secure as well as fit for purpose.

My noble friend Lady Drake is often a Cassandra on these matters; she sees these problems coming. My problem is not that the Government should pause and reset, if that is necessary; it is that they need to stop pretending that everything is fine, until the moment when it is suddenly not fine. That is a bit of a habit in government: “Is everything fine?” “Yes, yes, yes. Oh, no, it has all fallen apart, but will be fine again with a new deadline”. We somehow need to find a way of discussing things in politics that allows a grown-up approach to understanding when projects will be difficult. There is an overconfidence on the part of the Government such that, when everyone raises problems, Ministers are sent out with a brief that says, “No, it will all be fine; there is nothing to see here”, until it falls over.

I do not expect the Minister to solve that problem overnight, but I commend this to the Government as an opportunity to think again about how we handle big projects—and, in particular, how Parliament can have some accountability for them. An awful lot of money is at stake here—private, commercial and public. There ought to be some decent accountability over it.

Clearly, people such as my noble friend Lady Drake—indeed, many on these Benches—cautioned the Government that they were underestimating the complexity of delivering the dashboard and being overoptimistic about the speed, but we want a dashboard to work. I am with the noble Lords who are raising challenges about the reasons. We have had some helpful briefings, and some slightly less helpful official ministerial Statements, but the truth is that it is hard to know what exactly has gone wrong and why it was not picked up earlier.

The Minister told us the reason, saying

“the technical solution has not been sufficiently tested and there is still work to do to finalise the necessary supporting documentation and to get the necessary systems in place to support industry with the connection process”.

A cynic would say that, basically, that means that it was all fine apart from the technology, the paperwork and the systems. That is not an explanation of what went wrong. It is a little like when my washing machine breaks and a helpful friend will say, “What’s wrong with it?” and I reply, “It’s not working. It’s not washing clothes—I don’t know”. We need more than that. I know that the Minister is keen to have his officials talk to us, but there needs to be some process of public openness and accountability when things go wrong, so that there is the ability to hold to account and understand. However, here we are, with this reset.

As we have heard, the original timetable was hardwired into secondary legislation, hence the need for the instrument. As the Minister explained, it amends the 2022 regulations to remove the staging profile, staging deadlines and connection window and insert instead a common requirement for all schemes to connect to dashboards by 31 October 2026. The new approach is described like this in paragraph 11.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum:

“Through this instrument, the Department for Work and Pensions is retaining the policy of compulsory connection by a set date and intends to encourage a staged approach set out in guidance, rather than mandated in Regulations”.


Therefore, the answer to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, is that there will be interim dates in the guidance, but they will be suggested interim dates. It is not yet quite clear what that will mean in practice. Trustees and managers will need to have regard to such guidance but as I understand it—the Minister can clarify it—that would not necessarily mean that they are obliged to comply with the suggested dates, or presumably they would be not suggested dates but mandated ones.

That raises some key questions. With a single compulsory connection deadline, is there not an obvious risk of a backlog of schemes still waiting to connect as we get close to 31 October 2026? What action will the DWP take if there is evidence of back-ending by schemes or of backlogs building up? That is not just our concern. Dr Yvonne Braun, a director of the Association of British Insurers, said:

“Our members have indicated they’re willing and able to continue to comply with a voluntary timetable, although it would have been our preference that these remained a regulatory requirement to prevent a last-minute rush of firms connecting to the system. We ask that government keeps this under review and considers making the staggered dates a regulatory requirement again if it should become clear that the wider industry is not taking the same approach”.


What is the Government’s response to that?

Although the timetable in the guidance will not be mandatory, we know that scheme trustees or managers must have regard to it, as not doing so would be a breach of the 2022 regulations. They will also be expected to demonstrate how they have had regard to it. However, as my noble friend Lady Drake said, the language of the Explanatory Memorandum is much more about encouragement. Paragraph 7.6 refers to MaPS and TPR communicating with

“trustees and managers of schemes in scope to encourage connection ahead of the single connection deadline, in line with the connection dates set out in guidance”.

It is not clear to me where the line lies between compulsory and voluntary when it comes to guidance. Can the Minister clarify that?

Can the Minister explain what “have regard to” means in practice? Is there an established meaning of this in law? It is a phrase that comes up, so can he help us on that? A crucial question is what would count as not having regard to the guidance. For example, suppose a scheme manager reads the guidance carefully and develops a plan to connect just in time for October 2026, and she is confident her scheme will be ready by then, does that count as having sufficient regard? Suppose lots of others do the same thing, and they all get to that point but cannot connect because there are too many of them and the system cannot manage it, are they in breach of the law? Have they failed then to have due regard to the guidance? What is their position?