Extremism Definition and Community Engagement

Debate between Baroness Sherlock and Baroness Hussein-Ece

Tuesday 19th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, hateful extremism threatens the safety of our communities and the unity of our country. It is a serious problem demanding a serious response. When it comes to national security, the threat of radicalisation and the scourge of Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, neo-Nazism or any other corrosive hatred, the whole House can and should stand together. I welcome that the Statement addresses concerns about the dangers facing our elected representatives. We can all agree that nobody who has stepped up to take on a role as an act of public service should find themselves facing threats or harassment as a result, either to themselves or to their families and staff.

However, I have some questions. As far back as 7 June 2011, the then Conservative Home Secretary told the other place:

“If organisations do not support the values of democracy, human rights, equality before the law, participation in society … we will not work with them and we will not fund them”.—[Official Report, Commons, 7/6/11; col. 53.]


What has been happening between 2011 and now? Have Ministers been engaging with groups that they now regard as extremist?

I welcome that the Statement says strongly and clearly that the diversity of our country makes us stronger. I agree wholeheartedly with that. We all need to show that we mean it. The way in which the Government do this work matters and the language that we all use is important. At a time when we face the risk of real division in our communities, it is crucial that all of us in politics avoid fanning the flames of division any further.

Labour will want to scrutinise the Government’s plans in this area, as in any other, but if Ministers behave responsibly then we will engage in good faith. However, given the sensitivities of these issues, it was unhelpful that, before the Statement was finally made to Parliament, we had to endure days of briefing, and inevitably speculation, about the scope of the new definition and who might be covered by it.

There was a longer debate on this Statement when Michael Gove made it in another place, and I do not propose to revisit all the arguments made there, but I think this House would like to understand more about exactly what the Government propose to do. If the means by which it is decided that an organisation meets the criteria in the new definition is to be truly evidence-led, the process must be robust and be allowed to take its course. The nature of that process is, at least to me, still rather opaque.

I have some questions about how the definition will work in practice. How will the new centre of excellence operate and how it will be resourced? Who will take the decision to declare that an organisation meets the definition of extremism, and is that decision subject to appeal? Can the Minister confirm that this will apply only to central government and not to local or regional government or devolved Administrations? Is it intended that it will apply, now or at any later stage, to other public bodies or to services such as the police or universities? What is happening with the appointment of a new Islamophobia adviser?

I have talked to people from a number of groups from different faith communities, many of whom are worried that they may find themselves caught by this new definition. The Statement says that the definition

“will not affect gender-critical campaigners, those with conservative religious beliefs, trans activists, environmental protest groups or those exercising their proper right to free speech”.

Can the Minister say any more about which groups it will affect, and on what basis the Government have chosen to draw the line?

I have a few more questions. We all know there has been a huge surge in online extremism. What action is being taken across government to assess and confront online hate? Will the Government be publishing a new cross-government counter-extremism strategy, given that the last one is now very out of date? Will it include action to rebuild the resilience and cohesion of our communities? What new funding will there be in this area and what will be done to invest in multi-faith dialogue? Given the appalling surge in anti-Semitism and Islamophobia in recent months, will we soon see an updated hate crime action plan?

To tackle extremism we need to work with people of good will at all levels. The Statement says that DLUHC has been working with faith groups, civil society and local councils. All of those have a crucial role to play in tackling extremism, but as shadow Faith Minister, I talk to a lot of faith groups and I have no idea which were consulted or what the results of that consultation were. Can the Minster tell us more about the consultation and its findings?

We all agree that we need strong action to tackle the corrosive forms of hatred that devastate lives and damage our communities. This is a moment when politicians must take firm action, but it is also a moment when we need to be statesmen and stateswomen. We should remember the words of the most reverend Primates the Archbishops of Canterbury and York, who warned that, against the backdrop of growing divisions, it is for political leaders to provide “a conciliatory tone” and to

“pursue policies that bring us together, not risk driving us apart”.

Keir Starmer has made it clear that if Ministers behave responsibly, if they reach out to other parties to seek to build consensus, rather than using the issue for party gain in a pre-election period, we will engage in good faith. I hope the Minister can give us good assurances on this front. I look forward to her reply.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, most of whose wise words I agree with. I am grateful to the Minister for our meeting earlier.

The majority of us agree that hateful extremism and hate crimes threaten society and the safety of our communities and undermine social cohesion. I will speak quite plainly today. The Government’s new non-statutory definition of extremism has not been universally welcomed or embraced, and it has created concerns that it will be used disproportionately to target British Muslim communities and organisations that the Government of the day may disagree with.

Singling out a number of mainstream law-abiding British Muslim organisations that have contributed to society over many years sets a dangerous precedent, undermining democracy, religious freedoms and free speech. I echo the words of the noble Baroness about the leaking and briefing that has been taking place over the last few weeks. It was briefed that, for example, the Muslim Council of Britain could be the sort of extremist organisation that the Government must have nothing to do with. The MCB is the UK’s largest Muslim umbrella group. Many of us know and respect its first female secretary-general, the dynamic Zara Mohammed. It is an umbrella group with more than 500 affiliated members, including mosques, schools and charitable organisations. Are the Government saying that they are to be labelled as possible extremists? This can serve only to smear groups and individuals. How will the Government address these concerns, in order to counter fear and division? As we have heard, online extremism is on the rise, but surely, smearing organisations and all those who work within them or benefit from them is not the way to bring about social cohesion.

Michael Gove says that his department will establish a civil service centre of excellence. Who will these people be and where will they be drawn from? Will there be transparency? Will they include people who already have displayed intolerant views, such as William Shawcross, whom the Secretary of State describes as the author of the “brilliant” review of Prevent. In 2012, he was quoted as saying:

“Europe and Islam is one of the greatest, most terrifying problems of our future”.


It is no wonder that over 400 organisations refused to engage with him on that Prevent review.

What evidence-based threshold will be applied by this new centre of excellence, especially when compiling lists of organisations and guidance? Will any of these organisations have the right to appeal any decision? It is disappointing that the Secretary of State seems to have ignored civil liberties groups. As we have heard, three former Home Secretaries are against politicising such an important issue. I would also like to know who was consulted in drawing up this definition of extremism.

In the past few years, the Government have refused to recognise or accept a definition of Islamophobia, despite it now being widely adopted across civil society and by all other political parties. They said that they would come up with their own definition. In the past week, they have had problems in condemning racism and misogyny in respect of Diane Abbott. There was even a debate on whether making such hateful remarks constituted racism. Yet they are promoting this new definition of extremism with apparently little reference to minority communities, who have seen a massive increase in racism, Islamophobia, anti-Semitism and other hate crimes.

The respected race equality think tank, the Runnymede Trust, described the definition as an “attack on civil society”. It went on to say that it has

“bypassed parliamentary scrutiny and will likely shut down organisations supporting people of colour, who are critical of the government of the day … This definition governs what people are thinking, rather than doing, and will likely silence those who oppose the govt’s position, for example on pro-Palestinian marches and critical race theory. Muslim groups and orgs supporting people of colour will be targeted as a result”.

This is the perception outside, and I have been contacted by numerous faith groups and other community groups who are concerned that, instead of people being brought together, the seeds of division are being sown.

Can the Minister please respond to the concerns I have raised? Does she agree that we need a commitment to bring unity and not division to our society? We certainly need more inter-faith dialogue, not less.