India: Freedom of Religion or Belief

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Tuesday 16th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

We have an excellent dialogue with the Indian Government in all sorts of ways. In fact, I spoke to Foreign Minister Jaishankar at the weekend. My noble friend Lord Ahmad visits frequently and has a very deep dialogue. I have a good relationship with Prime Minister Modi, and we discuss all these things.

In terms of meeting the sustainable development goals, the most important thing India can do is to continue to grow and lift people out of poverty. I think it is true that there are more people in India below the poverty line than in sub-Saharan Africa. The need for India to grow and pull people out of poverty is great. Obviously, one thing we will discuss at the G20 and elsewhere is how to scale up the multilateral development banks, in which India has a voice, to make sure that we have the financing available to meet those development goals.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the democratic elections in India are a positive for the whole world and are to be commended to the Indian authorities. But all too often there has been harassment and intimidation by the Indian Government when there has been reporting of human rights concerns, as well as freedom of religion concerns, including the necessity for the BBC uniquely to restructure in India so that it is no longer operating there like it operates in any other country. Will the Foreign Secretary confirm that we are not offering market access to India for media, data and telecoms on an unequal basis? The freedoms that we should enjoy in this country when it comes to the BBC and open media to report human rights concerns should exist in India also. We should not give preferential market access here when we are not offered it there.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point about the rumbustious nature of Indian democracy. India should be proud of being the biggest democracy in the world. As with all democracies, there are imperfections—as there are in our own country. We should celebrate the scale of India’s democracy.

The point the noble Lord makes about the BBC is important. My understanding is that India passed a law insisting that digital media companies had to be Indian-owned, and the BBC has had to restructure on that basis. That is not the British way—insisting that all media have to be domestically owned—although I know that some in this place and elsewhere have been tempted by those moves; I have sometimes fantasised about that when reading things that I have read. None the less, that is the reason why the BBC has restructured, together with some disagreements with India.

I will take away and look at the point that the noble Lord then made about the trade deal. My understanding of where we are with the trade deal is that good market access has been offered on both sides, but not quite enough yet to secure a deal. It is important with such trade deals, as you only really get one proper shot at it, to make sure that it is a good enough deal that will be welcomed by industry leaders here in the UK as offering real market access. On the point on media access, I will have to go away and look at that. Personally, I would say that we should open up media access on both sides to make sure we have a good plurality of media.

Council of Europe: 75th Anniversary

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Tuesday 16th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I did look at the dissenting judgment, and I thought it was pretty frank and clear. We have made reforms to the European Court of Human Rights. The noble Lord, Lord Clarke, battled very hard in the coalition Government to achieve the Brighton Declaration, which was an improvement, and we have made some changes recently on Article 39, so there are changes you can make. But I think it will depend partly on the court’s attitude to how far it takes its mission beyond the actual convention rights. I am not an expert on the convention, but I do not think that it mentions climate change and, as I said, climate change or the rights that we have in terms of our health service or education are things that we should be legislating for in Parliament, by politicians accountable to their electorates, rather than depending on a court. So reform is necessary and reform is going through, but I think there also needs to be a balance about leaving to nation states those things that they should be deciding themselves.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, one of the significant committees in the Council of Europe is the Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. The Foreign Secretary will be aware that the committee raised concerns last year about UK immigration policy regarding the detention of vulnerable people who are seeking asylum, no matter how they get to the UK. The Foreign Secretary’s signature is on the Rwanda treaty, which, enabled by the Rwanda Bill, will mean that a trafficked woman who ends up in the UK against her knowledge and against her will through an irregular route will now be detained and sent to Rwanda under his policy. As the committee said, that is a reversal of the commitments given by the Prime Minister in 2016

“to introduce a clear presumption against detention of vulnerable people”.

Does the Foreign Secretary agree with me that, on the 75th anniversary of the Council of Europe, we should be strengthening our support for vulnerable trafficked people coming to the UK rather than reneging on the commitments given?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

What we should be doing is dealing with the problem of very visible illegal migration, which is a problem not just in this country but all over the world. To do that, every country has to come up with an answer on what it is going to do. As I have explained at this Dispatch Box before, it is not possible to do immediate returns to France—that is not something that is currently negotiable —and that is why we have the Rwanda judgment. I have been looking at this issue for well over a decade, and I remember the Chahal case back in the 1990s, where the court determined that you could not balance +the risk to Britain of a dangerous terrorist staying and the risk to that dangerous terrorist if they were deported; there was no balance, as the right was absolute. You can argue that that is a good thing or a bad thing, but my argument would be that that is the sort of thing that we need to debate and decide in Parliament rather than simply rely on a court.

Gaza: Humanitarian Aid

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Tuesday 12th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I am delighted that Mark Bryson-Richardson, who I appointed as my aid co-ordinator, has met with COGAT; that is very useful. I can say to my noble friend that, yes, of course, getting more aid into Gaza requires the work of more than just Israel taking the relevant steps. But Israel is the country that could make the greatest difference, because some of the blockages, screening problems and all the rest of it are its responsibility. One proof point of that is that 18 trucks were dispatched from Jordan and they were held for 18 days at the Allenby/King Hussein bridge crossing. That seems to me the sort of the thing we need to act on faster to get that aid into Gaza. As I said in answer to the previous question, once it is in Gaza, it needs people to distribute it. That is about visas and capabilities, and deconfliction.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

The Foreign Secretary was very eloquent in describing the unnecessary blockages that have been put in place. He will agree with me that Article 50 of the Geneva Convention, on the requirement on occupying powers for children, is that they will not

“hinder the application of … food, medical care and protection … in favour of children under fifteen years, expectant mothers and mothers of children under seven years”.

Does the Foreign Secretary agree that these hindrances and blockages are potentially a war crime under the Geneva Convention and that, if any Ministers in the Israeli Government are actively blocking the inward supply of aid, we should consider sanctioning them?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

It is our legal position, and has been for some time, that Israel is the occupying power in Gaza; that was the case before 7 October. After the evacuation of Gaza in 2005, it was not truly freed up as an independent functioning territory, so it is true that the way that Israel behaves as the occupying power in allowing humanitarian aid into Gaza is a material consideration when it comes to looking at how it is complying with international humanitarian law. As I have said many times at this Dispatch Box already, what matters is whether it has the commitment and the capability, and whether it is complying. That is what we keep under review.

Haiti

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Tuesday 12th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I am afraid that I cannot give an update on exact timings. As the noble Lord knows, the UN has given backing through a Security Council resolution to the existence of this force, so it is not a UN force but it is UN-backed, which is important. I agree about the general point that it is so important for it to be able to do its work. People who follow these things use what I think is the rather odd phrase that the state has to have a monopoly on violence, but it is true: we cannot possibly have development, progress and success when there are quite so many different armed groups in charge of different parts of that country.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

Kenyan judges have indicated that the deployment of the Kenyan police forces would be illegal under Kenyan law unless there was a reciprocal agreement with the Haitian authorities. That is why the former Prime Minister of Haiti was in Nairobi. Now there is no vehicle by which to have this authorised by the Kenyan Government. What is the Foreign Secretary’s assessment about the capability of having those forces deployed, since there will be no functioning Government of Haiti with whom to have a reciprocal agreement? Given that there have been no elections for eight years, no functioning Parliament, no functioning judiciary and the warning signs last week of the violent gangs, Haiti is potentially slipping towards becoming a failed state. What technical support are we providing to those who may provide security assistance?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The noble Lord is certainly right that the failure to hold elections is one of the contributing factors to the chaos that we now see. After the assassination of the former President, the fact that elections were not held was clearly one of the aggravating factors. The role of the Kenyan forces is a matter for Kenya to decide. I think that, with the United States providing $300 million and the backing of the UN Security Council, it will be possible to put together a mission. As I said, it is not something that Britain will contribute to in terms of personnel, but we are happy to make a small financial contribution.

Developing World: Debt Reduction

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Tuesday 13th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The noble Lord is in very good company—I follow these things very closely.

The noble Lord is absolutely right about the importance of making sure that we do not have so many private sector holdbacks that hold up the vital debt restructuring of countries that get into trouble. We are trying to use things such as collective action clauses that work on bond issues—so they cannot hold out against repayment —as well as the majority voting provisions in new debt issuances so that private sector lenders are not stopping a country getting the debt restructuring they need.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I agree with the Foreign Secretary about increasing the capacity of Governments’ treasuries and their finance ministries to collect their own revenues, as well as trade facilitation, so that those trade ministries have greater capacity to trade out of poverty. I declare an interest as the co-chair of the All-Party Group on Trade out of Poverty. Does the Foreign Secretary believe that it was a mistake by some of his predecessors to cut UK support for exactly those processes? Since he is now passionate about this, and I agree with him, will he restore that funding?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

One of the great things that was done while I was out of government is one of the Government’s best-kept secrets, the developing countries trade system, which is more generous to the poorest countries in the world than the EU or the US. It is one of the most generous systems in the world, so in terms of helping countries to trade out of poverty, this Government have an excellent record.

Children in Gaza

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Tuesday 13th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

That is absolutely right. I believe those discussions are under way, and it is a great pity that they did not reach that conclusion the last time they were under way. As I said, the best outcome we could seek is an immediate stop in the fighting. Let us hope that the stop is for as long as possible. I think that Israel was content to offer a month or six weeks as a pause. Then we need the momentum to turn that pause into a permanent ceasefire, without a return to the fighting. That should be our goal but, crucially, the pause is necessary to get the aid in and the hostages out.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary referred to UNICEF—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I am grateful to the Chief Whip. UNICEF has said today that 600,000 displaced children are in Rafah in Gaza. That is comparable to the entire under-12 population of Scotland being displaced to one postcode area. Does the Foreign Secretary agree that for any belligerent in a conflict to advise children and civilians to relocate, on the pretext of their safety, to an area where there is no shelter, water or medicine, and where there are no security guarantees, is a war crime?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I say to the noble Lord what I said yesterday in Scotland: many of the people in Rafah have already moved three, four or five times. It is not possible for them to move again. They cannot go north because they would be going back to homes that have been destroyed. They cannot go south because that would involve going into Egypt, which none of us wants to see and the Egyptians do not want. That is why it is so important that the Israelis stop and think before going ahead with any operations in Rafah.

Palestinian State: UK Recognition

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Tuesday 13th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

What my noble friend Lord Ahmad and I are doing—we are virtually joined at the hip when we are not travelling separately to the region—is talking to all the partners in the region about how we work towards making that a reality. Recognition is obviously part of a two-state solution, and it should help with the momentum. The point that I have been making is that it should not be the first thing we do, as that would take the pressure off the Palestinians to reform and to do the things that need to happen in the Palestinian Authority. But just because it does not happen at the beginning does not mean that it must wait right until the end. One of the things that is beginning to change and that I think is hopeful is the American posture, which, until now, has been that recognition can come only when Israel and Palestine agree on the creation of a Palestinian state. Doing that would give Israel a veto, in effect, over a Palestinian state, which is the opposite of creating the sort of unstoppable momentum towards a two-state solution that we all want to see.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s comments on the flexibility of recognising the state of Palestine before there is a full agreement with the State of Israel. I declare that I will travel to Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Ramallah from tomorrow night. What message can the Foreign Secretary share with these Benches that I can take to those I will meet that he has persuaded like-minded countries and our allies, who have a long-standing view that recognising the state of Palestine before any long-term agreement is the best platform to get an agreement with Israel?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

After I made my statement, which is absolutely in line with our long-standing policy that recognition should come when it gives the maximum impetus and input to a solution, the Americans announced that they were re-examining their policy and looking at options to see how recognition could best play a part in bringing about a two-state solution.

Rohingya Refugees

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Tuesday 16th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The noble Baroness is entirely right: we are the penholder, and we take that duty very seriously. We have taken a range of action on this. Fundamentally, we are making sure that aid is going in—and I have just said what our contribution has been—and, secondly, that proper authorities are put in place to stop gender-based violence, collect evidence from the camps and make sure that people are held accountable. The third part of the strategy must be to put pressure on the Government to recognise that this country needs to have proper provision for all its ethnic minorities and parts, and to make sure that there is, effectively, a peace process and a more inclusive set of arrangements for the country, so that everyone can feel that they have a part in its future. Ultimately, no one wants the Rohingya to have to stay in Bangladesh; they should be able to go home.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary’s response to the right reverend Prelate indicated that funds have been diverted to the Ukraine resettlement scheme away from other schemes. I have asked in this Chamber, time and again, whether funds to support the Ukraine resettlement scheme in the UK have been diverted from other areas. Ministers have denied that, so can the Foreign Secretary clarify that point on the record? Secondly, the UK has been a refuge for many Rohingya who have sought asylum here under the Gateway Protection Programme. This was closed in 2020. On Friday, the Home Office’s Report on Safe and Legal Routes said that there are no safe and legal routes that the Rohingya would be able to apply for. Can the Minister assure me that, if any Rohingya is seeking refuge in the UK through a proper asylum application but is undocumented, they will not be detained and sent to Rwanda under his new scheme?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

First, let me clarify the point I made. Obviously, the ODA budget qualifies to pay for refugees from Ukraine, Afghanistan and elsewhere. Effectively, what happened over previous years was not only that the budget moved from 0.7% to 0.5% but that some of it was taken up, quite rightly, by ODA spending on looking after people from Ukraine and Afghanistan. We can now see that the overseas aid budget being spent overseas is actually increasing. For instance, when it comes to Africa, next year the budget will be almost doubling, to well over £1 billion. On what we want to see with the Rohingya, clearly there is a huge refugee crisis. They are being looked after in Bangladesh. Ideally, when circumstances are right, they will be able to go home. In between now and then, I think we should learn the lesson of the Syrian refugee crisis, where we did a lot to help countries such as Lebanon and particularly Jordan to make sure that people were able to stay there, work there and build livelihoods there, and then, when it is possible, go home.

Israel and Gaza

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Tuesday 16th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Janke is unwell. With her permission, and on her behalf, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper.

[The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton) (Con)]

My Lords, we support a ceasefire, but this must be a sustainable ceasefire that will last and prevent another generation living under the constant threat of war. That must mean that Hamas is no longer in power in Gaza, able to threaten Israel with rocket attacks and other forms of terrorism. Ahead of a permanent ceasefire, we want to see immediate and sustained humanitarian pauses to allow hostages to leave and more aid to enter Gaza, helping to create the conditions for a durable peace. As I said at the weekend, we would like to see such a pause start right now.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Foreign Secretary for his reply, and I agree with most of it. However, these Benches have for a number of weeks called for an immediate bilateral ceasefire, beyond a truce, which would allow hostages to be returned, bombing to stop and, of course, vital lifesaving aid to be secured. Why have the Government failed so far to persuade the Israeli Government to allow much greater access for the humanitarian aid that is needed? There are 1.9 million displaced people, many of whom are now facing famine. We now know that, when it comes to civilian casualties, this is the most deadly conflict in the 21st century. The UK will need to increase its support of humanitarian assistance, but it cut that from £107 million to £12 million between 2019 and 2023. I support the increase in aid but, surely, there will need to be an increase of the cap of 0.5% if we are to do our bit and ensure that aid is increased.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

First, I would say to the noble Lord that we have trebled the amount of aid that we are putting into Gaza. I very much take on board what he says about the pressure we need to put on not just the Israeli Government but other Governments in the region to get more aid in. Right now, as we speak, nine out of 10 people in Gaza are living on less than one meal a day. It is that serious. That is why I have had repeated conversations with the Israelis and set out a whole series of bottlenecks that need to be relieved. We need Kerem Shalom open all the time. We need the Nitzana checkpoint open all the time. I would like to see the port of Ashdod opened in Israel so that aid can get into the country through maritime routes and more swiftly into Gaza.

Crucially, we will not see more aid get to the people who need it unless the United Nations inside Gaza has the vehicles, the people and the fuel to get it around. Those permissions need to be given. I have had these conversations most recently this morning with the new UN aid co-ordinator, who I am confident will do an excellent job. We will keep up the pressure for this, because, as I have said, an immediate pause to help get that aid in and to help get hostages out is essential.

Belarus

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Tuesday 5th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I completely admire what the noble Lord has done to keep the spotlight on Belarus and the work that he and others on the all-party group have done; it is hugely to his and the House’s credit. We have sanctioned 182 individuals and entities. We keep looking at what more can be done. We never announce potential names or sanctions before we do them, for obvious reasons, but we keep it under review. I am looking at it very carefully. The noble Lord is right, and we should be clear: this is Europe’s totalitarian regime. They randomly confiscate people’s mobile phones to see who they have been contacting and what social media they are following. Trade unions have been dissolved and their leaders imprisoned. Waving a Ukrainian flag is against the law and can result in a jail sentence, and there are 1,500 political prisoners, so we absolutely agree with the aim of the noble Lord’s Question and we will keep using the sanctions and other tools as appropriate.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I also welcome the Foreign Secretary to his position and I agree with him as regards the Belarus regime. I remind him of what he said in his famous immigration speech. He said that by introducing a new visa,

“we are rolling out the red carpet to those”

who offer serious investment to the UK. We now know that a number of Belarus businesspeople bought a large proportion of London property as a result of this golden visa route. I have supported every Belarus sanction that we have debated in this House, but there is nothing in the Government’s new development White Paper that offers any new support for human rights defenders or democracy activists within this conflict. Why is that? Can the Foreign Secretary reassure me that of those 182 individuals he mentioned not a single one continues to enjoy UK preferential visa access?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I make the point to the noble Lord, who asks an important question, that yes, of course, we introduced entrepreneur visas to try to attract bright talent to the UK to help to grow the economy, but that does not mean that we should give visas to people who have come by that money wrongly. One of the things I did as Prime Minister was to announce the London property register which is now coming in and will make a huge difference by confiscating people’s ill-gotten gains and returning them to the countries and the people from which they came so they can benefit. On the noble Lord’s specific question, I am very happy to take that away and look at it more, but it is important to recognise that we use the sanctions, we will keep using the sanctions, and we are watching closely what Belarus is doing.

UK-EU Relationship

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Tuesday 5th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

Well, I had a feeling that some of my past words might be served up for me and I am sure that, as another former Prime Minister said, they will make a very fulfilling and satisfying diet as I eat them.

Yes, we did talk about security issues—specifically, we talked about security in the western Balkans—when I met Commissioner Šefčovič. Ukraine is perhaps one of the greatest elements of proof that the UK can make this relationship with the EU—of friend, neighbour and partner, rather than member—work. We co-ordinate with it very closely on how we support Ukraine, how we sanction Russians and all the rest of it. Of course, that is part of the relationship. Frankly, the other thing that has changed is that NATO has had an enormous boost from Putin’s actions. It is now bigger and stronger, with new members joining, and that is the ultimate guarantee of our security.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I am certain that the Foreign Secretary has some sympathy and understanding that the agreement has been a fairly harsh blow to the British Overseas Territories. I apologise that I missed his maiden speech in this House because I was in the Falkland Islands, where people told me that for their fishing industry, the largest part of the economy of the Falkland Islands, they are now spending more than £15 million a year to be Spanish-flagged vessels as a result of the lack of access to the EU market, which is their largest. I understand that the Foreign Secretary will be visiting the Falkland Islands, so will he take to them the good news that he will now negotiate an agreement that means that British fishermen on British vessels fishing in British waters will not have to do so under a Spanish flag?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. I can tell him that Minister Rutley from my department was in the Falklands just a couple of days ago. I will certainly take the noble Lord’s point away. I am very committed to working with all our overseas territories. We had them all in the Foreign Office just a couple of weeks ago to discuss a whole range of issues, and I am happy to add that to the list.