Cybersecurity and UK Democracy

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Fox

Tuesday 26th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I begin by making clear, as my right honourable friend Pat McFadden did in the other place, that we on these Benches support the Government in their efforts to counter attempts by China or any other state to interfere with our democratic processes in any way. This includes attempts to prevent elected representatives from going about their business, voicing their opinions or casting their votes.

We pay tribute to the work of the intelligence and security services in protecting our democracy and the public more widely. However, we need to question the coherence of the Government’s approach to this issue so far. Surely it is necessary for the Government to have a consistent approach across government, as the cyber threat is not restricted to democratic processes. It extends to universities, electric vehicles, energy, aviation, the safety of Hong Kong nationals, and intellectual property. How confident is the Minister that the vigilance recommended today in relation to democracy, which many would say comes slowly rather than swiftly, is equally applied to other areas of activity? Does the Minister honestly think that the limited action outlined in the Statement is sufficient to deter China? Given what we now know, what further steps are the Government going to take, since the hacking and impersonation of parliamentarians is not the full extent of this and not at all the action of a friendly state?

The calculation of any state which wishes us harm or considers that it may be necessary to do us harm in the future has changed markedly in the last decade. That which previously would need to be achieved through violent means can now be done through cyberattack. The defeat mechanism now is different. Our energy supplies, communications, water, transportation and finances are all targets in a completely new way. Undermining our democracy is just another form of attack. Does the Minister accept that we currently lack a consistent approach across government? I ask this as noble Lords will no doubt be aware that the Foreign Secretary has been the subject of unhelpful speculation regarding his interests in China. It seems peculiar that information about this has been less than forthcoming.

The Intelligence and Security Committee issued a report on China last year. Paragraph 98 of that report said:

“Targets are not necessarily limited to serving politicians either. They can include former political figures, if they are sufficiently high profile. For example, it is possible that David Cameron’s role as Vice President of a £1bn China-UK investment fund”


was

“in some part engineered by the Chinese state to lend credibility to Chinese investment”.

As I understand it, in January 2023, prior to his appointment as Foreign Secretary, the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, went to Sri Lanka to drum up investment for Port City Colombo, which is a belt and road project launched by President Xi that many believe will become a military base for the Chinese navy. It would help to protect the reputations of the noble Lord and the UK Government if there could be some clarity on whom he met and what sort of conversations took place. Can the Minister assist in providing the necessary transparency and reassurance so that this matter can be put to bed? Can she tell us whether these matters have been investigated?

We have heard assurances from Ministers that the closed electoral register has not been hacked, but anyone taking broader interest in this issue will be aware that the danger is not just about a single cyberattack event, but rather that data is gathered in large quantities over time and can be used to train AI or be interrogated by AI with impacts that we do not yet understand. What are the Government going to do, across all departments and institutions, to protect against this threat? The threat is evolving, from spying and influencing to the disruption of elections and critical infrastructure. As the threat has changed, surely our response needs to change in turn.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

We welcome this Statement, which we hope is a significant step towards a more strategic, cross-party approach to this issue. I take the opportunity to acknowledge our friend the noble Lord, Lord Alton, who has earned the opprobrium of the Chinese Communist Party thanks to his tireless campaigning. He should accept this as a badge of honour, albeit one that comes with ominous concerns. Over the last 24 hours, the Foreign Secretary issued a statement and called Beijing’s actions “completely unacceptable”. He added that:

“Such action from China will not be tolerated”.


Given that this is what the Government believe, the response to date seems feeble. This feebleness was highlighted by many of the Minister’s colleagues in the Commons, and not just Sir Iain Duncan Smith. But perhaps the reason for this caution was voiced by an unnamed Cabinet Minister quoted in the press as saying that the Government do not want to start a trade war. However, in response, China has said that it “strongly condemns” the UK’s “egregious” move to sanction Chinese hackers, adding that it would

“take the necessary reaction, as a matter of course, to the U.K.’s moves”.

What is the Cabinet Office assessment of the risk to the UK economy? How are the UK Government preparing to resist any retaliation?

During yesterday’s Statement, Deputy Prime Minister Oliver Dowden noted that it is no surprise that China

“should seek to interfere in electoral processes”

in successful democratic countries. The Deputy Prime Minister may not have been surprised, but the integrated review—even its refresh—does not anticipate this level of attack. What we have today is inadequate, so I suggest that the Government use this to instigate a process of significant and proactive cross-party consensus that we can take forward and have a cross-sectoral plan for our relationship with China.

The hack of the Electoral Commission is very worrying; can the Minister explain why it took so long for it to be disclosed? According to the NCSC, this data is highly likely to be used by Chinese intelligence services for a range of purposes, including large-scale espionage and transnational repression of perceived dissidents and critics in the UK. How will the UK Government protect those here in the UK-Chinese community who may be subject to long-distance repression?

Yesterday the Opposition’s spokesperson, and their spokesperson here today, rightly highlighted China’s voracious appetite for data and its potential uses as computing power improves. Even if data cannot usefully be manipulated and weaponised, it is used as a very useful training tool for artificial intelligence models, as we just heard. I echo the question asked yesterday: what are the Government doing to protect complex and valuable public datasets from being stolen in this way? Two, for example, are health data and criminal records, but is not just our existing datasets we should worry about; the Chinese have the capability to build their own. For example, years after the decision to remove it, Huawei remains integral in our telecoms infrastructure. The Hikvision ban extends only to so-called sensitive sites, despite the fact that we have pushed hard to ensure that it extends to all public buildings.

This is just the tip of the data-gathering iceberg that exists already in this country. For example, last week, the Council on Geostrategy published a new policy paper highlighting the risks from Chinese cellular modules—so-called IoT modules. This raises an issue around the role of devices that sit inside almost every internet-enabled device, creating another whole cyber danger area. Then there are electric cars, which are little more than data hoovers, sending information back to China.

China has data and technology strategies that directly link to its strategic and security aims. They are decades ahead of our defences. We have to work together, and quickly, to develop the necessary responses. Despite the very good work that has been done by our own agencies to protect us, so much more is needed.

Tata Steel: Port Talbot

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Fox

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Noble Lords will understand that there is deep concern about the loss of as many as 3,000 jobs in south Wales. It is important to remember that, for many communities, this is not happening for the first time. The areas of the country where steel making is still a significant industry are scarred by decisions made in the 1980s in the name of progress by Conservative politicians without any thought to the economic devastation or the need for alternative investment, and no understanding of the damage to community pride, sense of place and even long-term health of the people affected. Doing deals over the heads of local people and then presenting as a success an outcome that costs £0.5 billion of taxpayers’ money and 3,000 jobs, leaving us with only one blast furnace site in the UK and diminished capacity to make virgin steel, shows how arrogant, out of touch, lacking in strategy and blasé this Government have become.

There are some serious questions that the Government have so far failed to answer. First, why was this deal done behind the backs of the workforce and their representatives? Secondly, the electric arc furnace uses scrap steel, but this will not work for Trostre and Llanwern, so where will that steel come from in future? Will it come from India or Turkey? Thirdly, when will a grid connection for the arc furnace be provided? Fourthly, what specifically is the intention for the site? Fifthly, what is going to be done to support the workforce?

Green steel is something that we all support, including workers and trades unions, so the Government need to do much better in planning for transition because, if this mass job loss model becomes the norm, workforce and wider public support will vanish. Transition requires trust, detail, openness and the involvement of all interested parties, and the Government have failed Port Talbot. The most important question that the Government need to answer is simply this: do they accept that the ability to make virgin steel for our national security is strategically important and must be sustained? Will they guarantee that the UK will retain its ability to make virgin steel in future?

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for allowing us to debate this Statement. The noble Baroness from His Majesty’s loyal Opposition made some important points, and I associate myself with her remarks. I have some additional questions.

The agreement to fund the installation of new arc furnaces for steel making will have a positive effect on emissions, and that is good news. However, as the noble Baroness said, the package could mean as many as 3,000 job losses in the UK, and in one area of the UK. That is a terrible outcome.

Tata is reported as warning that there would be a

“transition period including potential deep restructuring”

at the plant. I am not sure that I understand what that means. Can the Minister please translate it for your Lordships’ House in real terms and real lives? Those jobs are being shed. What plans do the Government have to support those people and that local economy when the jobs go? What are the plans for retraining, for example? What are the realistic expectations for a concentration of new and different jobs in that area?

As we also heard, the electric arc furnaces deliver different grades and qualities of steel compared to what we get from a blast furnace site. What is the Government’s assessment as to how the new capacity in this country as a result of that will affect the profile of steel we need to import? To add to the point that the noble Baroness made, what is the assessment on resilience in this country as a result of this change?

The new coal mine in Whitehaven that was last year partially waved through by Michael Gove is also a factor here. West Cumbria Mining said that the coking coal that it would produce would be used for steel making in the UK and Europe. As the Minister knows, electric arcs do not use coke. Yesterday’s announcement removes at a stroke a large proportion of the domestic market for that mine, meaning that the mine will be almost solely for export only, which even further removes the legitimacy of that venture.

The Statement mentions that the British industry supercharger, aimed at assisting electricity prices and helping to make them competitive for energy-intensive industries, will be applied here. His Majesty’s Government responded to the consultation on this only on 5 September, so I suspect that this is its first outing. I really do not understand what it is, but it is cited in reports. Can the Minister please write to us outlining what it is and what it means? I saw the consultation on the British industry supercharger and the response to it, and it is cited as being applied here. How is it applied? What are the terms of that application and what does it mean in energy terms for this business? What other businesses are now in line to benefit from it—not least Scunthorpe, where the Chinese owners cited energy costs as the reason for their shutting down of its coking ovens?

I have a couple of other points. Tata expects to release land at Port Talbot for transfer or sale following the closure of the blast furnaces. This land presumably hosted high industrial activity for decades, so who will be responsible for the not inconsiderable costs of decontaminating and remediating this land before it becomes useful and valuable for anything else? Who will be stumping up these costs?

In conclusion, we have seen a number of government interventions, including the also Tata-owned Jaguar Land Rover, Nissan, BMW and perhaps, going forward, British Steel. It has been said by some that these are foreign investors who are masters at extracting subsidies. We understand that there is an international subsidy competition going on here, but how does the Minister respond to that charge? The Chancellor has said that he was not prepared to go toe to toe with the US and EU in the subsidy bidding war, but this looks like the Government reacting to things when they settle in their in-tray. A patchwork of deals is a poor substitute for a coherent industrial strategy. Where is His Majesty’s Government’s plan? What are the Government seeking to cause to happen, or should we expect further examples of sticking plaster activity?

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Fox

Consideration of Commons amendments
Monday 26th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, for the record, my advice was to not apply the Parliament Acts.

The substantive point of this debate is to look at the two amendments and, in particular, to listen and understand what the Minister has said in response to those amendments. I am grateful for the interpretations of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and the noble Lord, Lord Krebs.

I turn first to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs. It is clear that your Lordships have repeatedly expressed their concern about potential regression, especially around environmental rules. We have heard fulsome and completely true undertakings from the noble Lords, Lord Callanan and Lord Benyon, and others from the Dispatch Box in seeking to allay your Lordships’ fears. However, not every ministry and every Secretary of State has been represented. We only have to look at what happened over the weekend, when a Government Minister from the Department for Levelling Up took aim at pollution rules with a view to development issues, to know that there are potential problems around this. My noble friend Lady Parminter talked about canaries in coalmines; that was a canary. We have to hope and trust that the undertakings made by the noble Lords, Lord Callanan and Lord Benyon, are applied right across His Majesty’s Government. It is clear that, after repeated discussions, we will not be voting on this today.

I turn to the amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. Your Lordships should thank not just the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, but the noble Lords, Lord Hamilton and Lord Hodgson, who have identified the issue of parliamentary sovereignty and worked hard to try to resolve it. The Minister himself spoke about the number of times this has come back. If it had not come back this time, the Minister would not have given the undertaking he just gave from the Dispatch Box which satisfied the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. The fact that it satisfied the noble and learned Lord means that it satisfies me.

We have been through a long journey but I do not think this journey has been in any way frivolous. It has been worthwhile, and it has exacted, as the Minister set out, many changes to the Bill. Your Lordships need to be proud of the work they have done on this Bill.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we agree with Amendments 15F and 42F from the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. We are sorry that the Government take the attitude they do to the involvement of Parliament in the scrutiny of retained law, especially as this House has been proved right on these issues. This House has given the Government good advice that they have largely ended up taking.

The amendment in lieu in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, simply asks that the Minister considers how regulations might best be dealt with. We note the assurances from the Minister; they have been, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, rightly pointed out, hard-won. We thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, in particular for the sterling work they have done over many months to get as far as we have.

The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, would protect law on environmental standards. We think there are clear and obvious reasons to want to do this, not least because we want to see the environment protected. It is worth adding that the Government’s failure to support this point as fully as they could have done still leaves further uncertainty for business and potential investors about the exact nature of the framework that they would have to comply with. We are sorry about the approach the Government have taken.

We are very grateful to our Cross-Bench colleagues in particular for the work that they have put in. The Bill is in a much better place now than it was when we first encountered it—noble Lords will remember the sunset clause and the lengthy arguments we had over that. The Government did listen in the end, though initially with some reluctance. I hope that in time Ministers will see that that was the right decision. We have got to a better place this afternoon.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Fox

3rd reading
Monday 22nd May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, on persuading the Minister—though I am not sure how much persuasion was required—to incorporate the spirit of her amendment, and I congratulate the Minister on making it more elegant. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, has invited me to like it; I will do my best, but I do not think I will manage that.

The most interesting thing about the amendment, in my view, is not what happens to the list but what is on the list. The nature of the Bill has been turned on its head. At one point, being on the list was essential to try to avoid being revoked. Now, being on the list makes a law a target to be revoked. So we are in a world that has revolved 180 degrees; we have passed through the looking-glass.

I have two questions for the Minister, and I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, to excuse me but I suspect it is the Minister who can answer them. First, to pick up on the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, which I was also going to make, is it the Minister’s understanding that no post-devolution legislation will now get put on to the list? We do not have legislative consent from the devolved authorities. They are apparently the authorities that would put post-devolution legislation on the list—if they had access to the database, although there is some question over whether they do. Can we assume that there will be no post-devolution legislation on the list?

Secondly, when will the list be fixed for these purposes? Is work still under way in all the departments of government in order to add new things to the dashboard, or is that it?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, commented that we were rather less than enthusiastic when we discussed this issue last week. I can see why we have got to the position where this amendment has been agreed between the noble Baroness and the Government, and I am very happy for her that she feels satisfied with the movement that the Government have made in getting here. I am afraid that the concerns we have had throughout this process are a long way from being satisfied by the amendment. We do not oppose it particularly, but we are not particularly in favour of it. It does not really do all that much to the substance of what we have been disagreeing about during the passage of the Bill. However, if it helps with some internal political management on the government Benches, that is something that the Minister is entitled to attempt to do.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Fox

Report stage
Wednesday 17th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, first I would like to associate myself with those last two comments and those of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. This amendment should not in any way be conflated with the amendments that we have passed and, I hope, we will pass later today. Rising to speak to this amendment rather feels like gate-crashing someone else’s private argument. I beg your pardon, but I am going to continue.

In normal circumstances, if there was anyone I would send out to reduce bureaucracy, it would be the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. Sadly, she seems to have broken from her norm with this amendment—perhaps she has been egged on or even corrupted by the co-signatories of this amendment. However, it does seem like it is one fight too many for the Government, and I understand that to some extent the Minister will be conceding on this. No doubt in the Government’s estimation this is perhaps a bone that can be thrown to one part of their own party without actually causing too many problems for the rest of the Bill—so good luck to the Minister on that one.

To what end will we have this list? I am a little curious as to what we will be listing. The noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, raised this to some extent. I think it would be helpful for your Lordships if the Minister could confirm at what point in the process of this Bill retained EU law that is not revoked by the schedule becomes assimilated law. In other words, when will this happen? When in the process of this Bill do Clauses 4, 5 and 6 cause these laws to slough off the links they have with the ECJ and all those interpretations based on EU values, which noble Lords opposite object to? At what point are these laws rendered just as susceptible to British common law as any other law on the statute? It would be helpful to know the dates when those things will happen because, once that has happened, it seems there will no longer be any retained EU law: it will be assimilated law formerly known as retained EU law.

An intriguing vision visited me when I was pondering this. In the popular motion picture “Blade Runner”, the hero, Harrison Ford, is tasked with rooting out and eliminating replicants. As I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, will remember from when she queued to enter the cinema, the replicants are essentially synthetic humans, indistinguishable from and which function as real humans—hence, they are rather hard to find. In a sense, the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, is seeking to brand these laws in order that they do not become indistinguishable replicants once they enter the canon of British law. Of course, that is her point; she has to maintain a difference between these laws in order to continue to have a conflict. This is, of course, a conflict between and among her parliamentary colleagues rather than the rest of us.

If, instead of focusing on where these laws came from, they focused on what they do, the whole process would be more worth while. Some of this assimilated law will need revoking or reforming, but similarly so do swathes of laws that were directly made by this Parliament. The invaluable time spent on the process in the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes—her annual census of the replicants perhaps—would be better spent actually doing the sort of things we need to do to make regulations smarter, as was noted by noble Lords just now.

The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, mentioned the Financial Services and Markets Bill. She may be dissatisfied with what is going on there, but that seems to be a model of how this process should go. If you take a sector, the job of Parliament is to assess all of the relevant laws pertinent to that particular sector. Some of them will need retaining; some of them will need revoking; some will need reforming, and there will be a need for new laws. At the end of it, Parliament will have gone through the whole process—irrespective of where those laws came from. It is not about where they came from; it is about what they do. This is unnecessary and it is essentially an irrelevant piece of legislation designed to create an argument within the party opposite.

It is the sort of clause that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, would normally come down on like a ton of bricks. It is a list that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and her colleagues on this amendment can use to fuel a fight with other members of the Conservative Party and nothing more—so good luck with that.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I was surprised when I saw this amendment. I have now spent 13 years in opposition in this and the other place, tabling such amendments at just about every opportunity. When you know that the Government are not going to do what you want them to do, one of the things left to you is to ask the Government to report annually or six-monthly to both Houses on whatever the issue might be. I have done this on everything from women’s justice to food standards to access to medicines. It is an in your back pocket kind of amendment—the sort that Ministers usually bat away quite easily. They talk about the cost and how much Civil Service time would be taken up in preparation. They do not want to use up valuable parliamentary time to debate these things, nor to distract Ministers with these sorts of fripperies.

On this occasion, it seems that the Government have decided that they can afford the time, money and resources to compile this list—to keep the argument alive for some people within the Conservative Party. What has happened to the noble Lords, Lord Frost and Lord Jackson? The tigers of Brexit are being bought off by an annual report to both Houses of Parliament. This is the sort of thing that the Opposition would have settled for at any point. There they are, taking this at what is meant to be the climax of their Brexit mission. I am quite disappointed that this is all the noble Lords have sought to achieve at the end of all this. They must be quite disappointed, although at least they get to have their report each year, to raise things and to ask why this or that regulation has not yet been dealt with. This is not going to be a red-letter day in my diary but, if it keeps the flame burning for others, then so be it.

I have to ask the Minister the same questions that he would ask me if the roles were reversed. Who will be compiling this list of regulations? How much time will they be spending on it? What is the cost? Will there be an opportunity to debate this report in Parliament each year? What format will this take, or will it go to a Select Committee? I wonder about the Government’s priorities. They find time to undertake this task when mortgages are soaring, inflation is still high, people are dying waiting for treatment, unable to see their GP and are pulling their own teeth out. This is what is going on in the country and yet the Government make this a priority.

I understand that the Government intend to accept this amendment, despite everything they have managed to do. They have completely rewritten their Bill. They have shown a little bit of backbone in doing that. I give credit where it is due. Now, at the 11th hour, they think that this is going to get them over the final hurdle. I am disappointed in the Minister for falling at the final fence. I am particularly disappointed in the noble Lords, Lord Frost and Lord Jackson, for settling quite so easily. There we are. I do not think we will bother to oppose the Government on this. Given everything else that has been going on, it does not seem worth the time of the Chamber to do so. This was quite a surprising, last-minute event in the process of this Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I dare say that the Conservative Party could use the experience the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, has in unifying Germany to perhaps unify itself.

This has been a rancorous debate and before I join in, I have a bit of housekeeping to do with the Minister. When he was still trying to push 5,000 laws over a cliff edge at the end of last year, on a number of occasions he used examples to illustrate the intrinsically trivial nature of all 5,000. One of the examples he used was legislation referring to reindeers and another was legislation referring to olive trees. I have studied the list, alongside the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, and I find no mention of reindeers or olive trees. Can I assume that those laws will remain on the statute book—or did they not in fact exist in the first place?

As we heard from my noble friends Lady Bakewell and Lady Brinton, we on these Benches really welcome the Government’s 180 degree U-turn. However, the breathless nature of that U-turn brought with it problems. We are debating those problems now because, in choosing not to eliminate 5,000 anonymous regulations—in essence, regulations that we did not need to know about—and in having to choose the regulations that will be revoked, the Government have had to publish this schedule very late and, even later, give us guidance on the decision-making process that went into putting those regulations on that list.

My noble friend Lady Brinton’s experience in trying to track a legacy of statutory instruments and regulations that did not get properly documented, in a way that was easy to follow, completely illustrates what the Civil Service was seeking to do 5,000 times—and many of those cases were even more complex, I dare say, than the case my noble friend Lady Brinton dealt with. In order to do that, the first thing the Civil Service had to do was to find those regulations and laws.

When the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, talked about it being the Civil Service’s role to dig up these regulations, he was not far from the truth. Many of these regulations were located at the bottom of a salt mine in an archive—I am not joking—in the north-west of this country. They had to don their safety gear and go underground to seek out these regulations. That is the level of digging-out that had to happen in order to do this.

That is why it is extraordinarily unfair to then put the blame on people who do not have a voice and are not able to answer back. They are lucky to have the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, to stand up for them, but it is bullying behaviour to bully people who do not have a voice. To my namesake, the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, and others, I say that “the blob” is an entirely derogatory term. These are people who do a job, and to roll them up and call them a blob is deeply offensive and against those people’s welfare.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, set up exactly the problem we have here. I have hope in “Hope’s amendments”—that we can at least regain some control. I remind noble Lords that we also passed a non-regression amendment that should deal with some of these issues. It is, as the noble and learned Lord said, not an ideal situation.

I look forward to the Minister’s response on the specifics, but deep in the heart of this whole process is a problem. The problem is that the Government set out to do something in too short a time, when they did not even know how big the job was in the first place. When they found out, they drew back. Now, they are trying to blame other people. The Government have no one but themselves to blame for the mess over which they are now officiating.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, the final debate on this Bill has highlighted just what a shambolic process this has been. We were glad to receive the explainer that the Government produced to accompany the new schedule, which is what we are supposed to be arguing about now in this group. But it was late, badly formatted and, as we have heard, not easily usable by some colleagues.

What we are experiencing this afternoon is the frustration that we have all felt with that element of the process and with this Bill since its introduction. At the climax of the process, we find ourselves just as confused and concerned as at the outset. There has not been adequate time to examine the contents of the schedule. Noble Lords have had to use this Report debate to try to get answers from Ministers on some of the specifics. This is exactly what we thought would happen. It is why we supported the amendment from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, on Monday, and why we will support his Amendment 76. We have debated it already. It will be voted on immediately after this group. We need the safeguards that these amendments provide. Given the way in which this Bill has been handled, the Government need these safeguards too.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Fox

Report stage
Monday 15th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, this has been a very extensive debate. The noble Lord, Lord Jackson, mentioned churlishness in a different context; it would be very churlish for these Benches not to welcome the government amendments in this group and the fact that the Minister has co-signed Amendment 9 in my name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman.

We owe the Minister a debt of gratitude. All through the grinding Committee, he stuck poker-faced to the party line, but then it seems he sprang into action; he took the spirit of what he heard in your Lordships’ House and, using his not inconsiderable powers of persuasion on the Secretary of State, he ensured that the whole government position flipped by 180 degrees. We need to thank him for listening to your Lordships in Committee.

We heard some concern about what is in the new schedule, which we will debate on Wednesday. Some of us received at 2.40 pm some explanation as to why particular regulations were put in. Clearly, that was late—we should have had it a lot earlier—but Amendment 2 takes the place of our having to work through the night on that spreadsheet. Should the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, seek the opinion of the House, we on these Benches will support him. Part of the road can be travelled with this group, as long as the noble and learned Lord’s amendment is included.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, it has been a bit of a saga getting to where we are, but it is incredibly welcome that Ministers have tabled the amendments before us today. This means that we do not need to debate my Amendment 6, which would have had a similar effect to the Government’s amendments. I also welcome the Government’s acceptance of my Amendment 9, which deletes Clause 2.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Fox

Committee stage
Wednesday 8th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, there is not really much to add, so I will not say very much. I notice that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, has denied himself the opportunity to speak on this last group, which is—

[Lord Fox (LD)]

Surprising.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Uncharacteristic but very welcome—I hope he does not take that the wrong way.

We support this measure, for the reasons that have been very well laid out about giving stakeholders a chance to get involved. We do not think that accepting one of these amendments or something like them would affect the Government’s ability to fulfil their objectives.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, made some good points about the argument regarding practicality, based on experiences laid out very well in the committee report. I thought her concerns about the unintended consequence of sticking with 10 days—that it might actually make the process slower because more things would get referred—were strong. Her point about the need to probe policy that may come about as a result of the SIs coming from this Bill has persuaded us as well.

I would have thought this was something on which the Government could accept a change and bring something back on Report. If they do not, we will be happy to work with noble Lords on all sides to try to table something ourselves. I think this may perhaps be an occasion where the Government could show willing, and listen and respond positively.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Fox

Committee stage
Wednesday 8th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, we are indebted to the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, for again bringing forward some detail and being a conduit for the important work that the Law Society of Scotland provides to a number of different Bill Committees on which I have found myself. I am not going to speak to the clause stand part debate or her first amendment, but I shall speak briefly on Amendment 134. She herself linked it to the first group that we spoke about today. In the words read out by the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, in response to that group, I failed to recognise the description of the relationship that currently exists between the Government in Westminster and the devolved authorities when discussing this Bill. A picture appeared to be painted of some quite progressive and happy discussions, which is not my impression of what is actually going on. The noble Baroness’s Amendment 134 is another way of trying to link back to the devolved authorities. It is clear at the moment that the devolved authorities are very sore about how they are being treated by the Bill, so any measures that reach back to them are important. That is why we on these Benches particularly support Amendment 134.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said about the helpfulness of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, in tabling these amendments. It is curious that, in this clause, changes in technology and developments in scientific understanding are allowed to be taken account of but other factors are not. I would have thought, given the Windsor Framework, that we ought to be taking account of developments in the economies of our trading partners and their regulatory developments, because under that framework they are going to have an impact on what we are able to do in the UK and our approach to regulation and divergence. That is becoming increasingly clear, which is why we are seeing questions such as that asked by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, of the noble Lord, Lord Caine, yesterday at Oral Questions. We do not yet have a sense that the Government are on top of this. It is as if they have done this Bill and then done something somewhere else, and no one has asked about how those two things will overlap.

When I first saw this clause, I thought, “This is a real problem because Ministers are going to get too much power to do things without accountability, rather like the discussions we have had before”, but actually even more questions are raised about the privileging of technology and scientific understanding ahead of anything else. It would be good to understand where that has come from and what Ministers had in mind when they included it in the Bill. Might they come to regret not making clear that this is not an exhaustive list, or something like that, as they have in other clauses? We are not clear what is meant by the phrase

“considers appropriate to take account of”,

so perhaps some examples might be in order.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Fox

Committee stage
Thursday 2nd March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I follow the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, which was incredibly helpful and really got to the heart of what this group of amendments seeks to do. I could support any one of them; they all try to do a similar thing in slightly different ways.

The amendment I have tabled, with the support of the noble Lord, Lord Fox, seeks to deal with perhaps the most dangerous element of the way the Government are approaching this task, in that it would prevent what the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, described as the unannounced revocation of law. Things happening by accident is what we are increasingly concerned about, especially given the contribution of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, about the inadequacies of the way the Government may be—we hope to find out more about what they are doing—endeavouring to identify all the retained EU law.

There are many concerns about the Bill, which colleagues have described in detail in this debate, but there are three which stood out to me above some of the others when I first read the Bill. The first is the total lack of clarity about which laws are going to be revoked. The second is the regulatory cliff edge which means that all retained law will be revoked by default—no matter what the noble Lord, Lord Benyon, said—at the end of this year. The third is the complete lack of parliamentary accountability and consent in the process. This amendment addresses those three concerns. Clearly, other concerns are addressed by other amendments, which I also support.

Amendment 43 is as simple as we could craft it. It is based on common-sense principles that I believe noble Lords from all sides can agree: that if the Government want to revoke a law, they should be able to, but they should be able to tell Parliament which law it is that they want to remove. The removal of the law should be an active choice, not a passive default, and should require Parliament’s consent. There is nothing in this amendment that prevents the Government achieving their stated aim of dealing with all retained EU law. Our amendment requires simply that, if the Government wish to revoke a retained piece of EU law, they must proactively submit to Parliament a list of the specific items they wish to revoke. We are not stopping anything happening; we just want this to be done in a much safer way. Both Houses would then need to vote to approve that list. Law which is not specifically revoked is retained. That is it.

As was said at Second Reading, it is perfectly reasonable for the Government to review law that has been retained from our long period as a member of the European Union. We have no argument with this. We might not like what the Government want to do and the decisions that they might make, but we do not argue with the Government’s intention to examine this class of law—although it is just UK law. It is a bit like, I suppose, if the Labour Party were to win an election and say, “Do you know what? We did not like the way that last Government behaved. We’re going to sunset everything they did and hope for the best”. I should say that that will not be in our manifesto; I say it just to highlight the insanity of the way this Government are going about this.

The amendment does not frustrate the fundamental process. It would require the Government to follow a very reasonable, proportionate approach. It could be done in a timely way—I know time is important to the Minister, who wants this to be done quickly, and this could be done relatively quickly. Through this amendment, we would have a very simple but democratic mechanism for changing EU law. It would ensure that the process of reviewing retained law does not cause as much uncertainty as the Government’s regulatory cliff edge is generating today. It would mean that important decisions about workers’ rights, environmental standards and consumer protections cannot happen by default, or worse, by accident. It would restore Parliament’s proper, sovereign role.

I know some have objected to the processes that created these EU laws in the first place. The Minister is one of them, I think, and I respect that view. He has said that he regarded that process as distant and undemocratic. I do not agree but he is entitled to hold that view. However, it is really difficult to take those complaints seriously when the Government are choosing to support the nonsensical, undemocratic Executive power grab that this Bill, as currently drafted, represents. It is reckless.

Your Lordships’ House, or the Government, should amend the Bill with a simple, straightforward process that sits much better within our constitutional traditions. My amendment is a common-sense amendment that respects the sovereignty of this Parliament, and I commend it. However, I would be very happy to work with noble Lords from all sides—indeed, I look forward to it—on coming together should the Government choose not to take the recommendation embodied by this group of amendments. We would be neglectful if we allowed this Bill to proceed any further without the safeguards that the amendments in this group would provide.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 42, 43 and 50 and the Clause 1 stand part debate, to which I have added my name.

What was clear from last week’s debate—we have alluded to it a number of times since then—is that the Government have absolutely no intention of providing a comprehensive list of retained EU law under the jurisdiction of this Bill. It is clear that the decisions taken by departments to retain, amend or revoke will be announced unilaterally via the dashboard. In the case of revoking, it is an act of either commission or omission—we will not know until we see it on the dashboard. However, if there is no list then we will not even know that something has been revoked. The former—the lack of a list—informs the latter: the fact that we will not know whether laws have been revoked or otherwise.

That is why this set of amendments, in the number of forms that we have seen, is so important. Through Amendment 32, we have heard from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, my noble friend Lord Beith, the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, how the Government should set out in advance what they are seeking to do and give Parliament a chance to overrule the Executive and choose to retain specific named instruments, rather than waiting for the automatic disposal of these laws. The noble Lords, Lord Carlile and Lord Kirkhope, in Amendment 44, and the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, in Amendment 141A, set out other ways of seeking to achieve a similar end. The point has been made that there are a number of ways of doing this.

It was a pleasure to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, set out Amendment 43, to which I have added my name; I was happy to do so because, in the amendment, she sets out very ably a process by which Parliament can retain its control over what is going on in this law. It would avoid the really important issue, to which I and other Peers have already alluded, of the unknown repeal of laws—that is, the accidental revocation or deliberate obfuscation of revocation that may happen as a result of this law. This is a well-drafted amendment that we would be very happy to see go forward.

Amendment 42, in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Ludford, complements what we have heard already about a process of consultation, about how these laws and regulations should be consulted on. It sets out four objectives for the consultation. The first is to consider whether the legislation under review is fit for purpose. It may not be. Ministers have talked about reindeer and whatnot. I am sure that we do not really need those but there cannot be many of the 4,000 or so laws that refer to reindeer. Let us assume that that the majority of them are addressing areas of concern to the greater public. Are they fit for purpose?

The second objective is to consider whether alternative regulation would achieve different or preferable goals. The third objective is to consider whether alternative regulation would provide greater benefits to consumers, workers, businesses, the environment, animal welfare, and public safety, to name a few. The fourth objective is to consider whether alternative regulation would provide greater legal certainty, and there is a great deal of legal uncertainty coming the way of this Bill if it stays as it is. I cannot see why this approach is unreasonable, and I am sure that the Minister will agree with me and adopt this straightaway.

Much has been said about sunsetting. Some speakers on the Government Benches have set out their view that without sunsetting, departments would somehow be dragging their heels. The Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, said last week to your Lordships that

“the sunset was introduced to incentivise departments to think boldly and constructively about their regulations and to remove unnecessary regulatory burdens.”—[Official Report, 23/2/15; col. 1820.]

Just before lunch, we heard the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, say that the sunset’s purpose is to “incentivise genuine reform”. These confirm that the purpose of the sunset is, in the Government’s view, to get civil servants to get on with it. That may be so, but what is it that are they getting on with, or that the Government would have them get on with? I suggest that they are injecting the largest single slug of legislative uncertainty into national life that any of us can remember. I say to my noble friend Lord Beith that I am afraid that I do not go back to the 1600s, when it last happened—

Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Fox

Consideration of Commons amendments
Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, it came as no surprise that the Government used their majority to negate the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Browne. The noble Lord has, in his tenacious way, set out why he regrets that, and I agree with him. It is not to be—it will not go to a vote—but I hope that the ARIA leadership will be more careful when they write the contracts for the money that they will give than perhaps the Government seem to be with enshrining this in law.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, that the Science Minister’s comments were very helpful. They were more than we would usually get in these games of ping-pong, and that is to his credit.

As the Minister set out, since we sent this Bill to the other place, the name of the ARIA CEO has been announced. It is nice to see the Minister looking so pleased about things. He often looks quite downcast, so it is quite good for him to arrive with something that he can be pleased about. We wish Dr Highnam all speed and wish him well in what is a very important task.

Others have suggested that we look forward to the framework document emerging. In answer to the previous speaker, I do not think that the Minister has not shared with us something that he is sitting on; the Minister has not seen the framework agreement yet either, because it has not been written. However, we look forward to seeing it as soon as it has.

The Government have also had some important things to say about their focus for future research funding—I am talking here about the UKRI numbers. In their levelling-up White Paper, they announced the intention to increase the percentage of funding from what is rather dismissively called the golden triangle to other institutions, often but not exclusively further north. I should remind your Lordships that I am an alumnus of Imperial College.

Very briefly, I wanted to relate this to ARIA and, more importantly, to the commercialisation of innovation. There is a disparity between universities that are better at commercialising their innovation and thereby having another income stream, and those that are less good at that. I hope that ARIA is able to lead some excellence in that and spread the effective commercialisation of knowledge and innovation better. That would contribute to the Government’s levelling-up agenda at the same time.

I also recently met with the UK Innovation & Science Seed Fund—known as UKI2S—which, as the Minister will know, acts as a bridge between public sector research and private capital. I would be interested to know from the Minister how this organisation can fit with ARIA and improve our overall commercialisation. I am sure the Minister will admit that the UK’s record on commercialisation has been patchy in the past and could definitely improve. I would suggest that UKI2S is one of the models that ought to be taken into account. I hope that the Minister might meet with me and that organisation to discuss this and how it might play into this space with its track record in order to deliver on the promise of ARIA. I think we all share the Government’s desire to—in the Minister’s words—drive the agenda for strategic, industrial advantage. With that, we hope that in 10 years’ time, ARIA will be seen to have played an important part in achieving that objective.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we accept the reason given by the other place for rejecting Amendment 1, but we continue to disagree on the substance. I place on record my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, for his work on this amendment. His sparkling curiosity and polymath tendencies, combined with his government experience, make him ideally suited to this issue. He has been incredibly generous with his time and knowledge, and I am grateful to him for that.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, suggested a sensible amendment to protect benefits arising from the UK’s creativity and ingenuity in ensuring that the taxpayer—the investor—retains the benefit of it. The majority of noble Lords agreed with my noble friend when we tested the will of the House. In the absence of any measures enabling sufficient scrutiny of ARIA’s activities, we felt we needed this amendment. We are clear that the benefits of ARIA’s investments must be felt in the UK. Lords Amendment 1 would have assisted in this; it would have given ARIA the option to treat its financial support to a business as convertible into an equity interest in the business, and thus to benefit from intellectual property created with ARIA’s support.

It would also have enabled ARIA to require consent during the 10 years following financial or resource support if the business intended to transfer intellectual property abroad or transfer a controlling interest to a business not resident in the UK. As my honourable friend Chi Onwurah said in the other place, we have to acknowledge that currently

“the UK does not provide a sufficiently supportive environment for innovation start-ups to thrive. That is why we have already lost so many of them.”—[Official Report, Commons, 31/2/21; col. 89.]

It is welcome that Ministers have said they agree with our concerns. It is just unfortunate that the Government did not want to take this opportunity to act on our shared concerns and seemed to lack the resolve to do anything about it on this occasion. Finally, I wish the new leadership of ARIA and the agency itself well. We look forward to the innovations and inventions that it is able to bring us.

Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Fox

3rd reading
Monday 10th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, first I should apologise for not being here to participate in the Report stage of this Bill. My disappointment was alleviated by the knowledge that my colleague and noble friend Lord Clement-Jones would more than compensate for my absence. I thank him for that and for his assistance throughout consideration of the Bill, and my noble friends Lady Randerson and Lord Oates for their work. I also thank the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, and the departmental team that has seen this Bill through; and the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, the Labour Party and their team for working with us and the Cross-Benchers in a collegiate way. This was an example of good scrutiny coming to the fore. Finally, a big thank you to Sarah Pughe in our office for her support.

We still do not really know what ARIA is. Until it is decided who is leading ARIA, we will not know what its purpose is or how it will interact with the rest of the research environment. During the debate the Minister undertook to keep us informed—while enshrining secrecy in the Bill, of course, at the same time. So, I hope he will be able to keep us well informed as this effort unfolds —indeed, perhaps in advance of things happening. Without wishing to rain on the parade, we should keep a sense of proportion about what this is. This primary legislation has put in place a research effort worth about £200 million to 300 million per year. Meanwhile, the UK’s participation in Horizon Europe has more or less evaporated. During the debate, there were many discussions about the effectiveness of UKRI. In accepting this Bill and moving forward with ARIA, we would be grateful if the Minister also addressed these two elephants in the room: the continued participation of the United Kingdom in Horizon Europe and making sure that UKRI is as effective as it really can be, in order to make a big difference to the research effort in this country.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we are pleased to see ARIA move to its next stage and we look forward to the inventions and innovations that will come from it. I was particularly pleased to see the amendment from my noble friend Lord Browne, which will secure the intellectual property that comes about as a result of investment by taxpayers via ARIA. I hope that Ministers in the other place see the benefit of it and feel able to support it. We will, of course, be listening very carefully to what is said about that.

As the Minister well knows, we are concerned by the rejection of the amendments on transparency and accountability. As the noble Lord, Lord Fox, rightly reminded us, the research environment has changed dramatically since our departure from the EU, and we would encourage Ministers to resolve their outstanding differences and make sure that Horizon participation is secured for the future.

However, for today, I would just like to thank the Minister and his team. He is correct in what he said about the nature of the discussions we had. This is my first Bill in this place and I have learned an awful lot and made some new friends, I think, through the process of the Bill, particularly my noble friend Lord Stansgate, and the noble Lords, Lord Morse, Lord Ravensdale, Lord Fox and Lord Clement-Jones—I have already mentioned my noble friend Lord Browne. I also thank the officers of the House and all other noble Lords who contributed. I should put on record, too, my thanks to Dan Stevens, our political and legislative adviser, who has been enormously helpful to me, as a new Member, in being prepared for the process of seeing through a Bill in this place. I thank all noble Lords who contributed.

Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Fox

Committee stage
Monday 22nd November 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, this amendment is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones. I will try to change gear and be very brief. The amendment would allow the chair of the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee to request information from ARIA on its operation. It would place a role for the committee in the Bill. In our view, it is another way to protect ARIA’s reputation.

I am sure the Minister will say that this is unnecessary, as the Science and Technology Committee can always have an inquiry, so we need not bother. This is true, and I agree that ARIA representatives can be questioned, but we should remember the culture of secrecy that the Government are unnecessarily cloaking this organisation with. There is no guarantee that ARIA will feel compelled to respond in full, and it might use this narrative that the Bill is creating around its specialness.

I recall the debate that many of us had when we discussed the National Security and Investment Bill. Several of us were there. There, too, we discussed the need for oversight of issues that might need to remain secret. At the time, the Minister—this Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Callanan—was adamant that the appropriate Select Committee, the BEIS Select Committee, could be empowered to receive secret and confidential information. There was much debate and the Minister was strident in his view that this committee could do that job. The National Security and Investment Bill envisaged the handling of vastly more secret secrets than we are talking about here.

So the idea of trusting the Science and Technology Select Committee to scrutinise ARIA and maintain genuine secrets is consistent with how the Government have already said they want to work elsewhere. For that reason, I expect the Minister to welcome this tidying amendment, which would bring the Bill into line with his thinking on other legislation. I beg to move.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Fox. It seems entirely appropriate that this committee should involve itself in asking for information from ARIA. I am fairly confident, given the Minister’s responses so far, that he would not share that view. This is the same theme that we have been on throughout all our deliberations. Whether it is this specific proposal, or one of the others that we have been trying to tempt the Government with, I am sure that we will be back at this in a couple of weeks’ time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s comments. Without sounding whiny, this would have benefited from a “Dear colleagues” letter in advance. It caused me a little head scratching over the weekend when I was trying to fathom the purpose of these amendments, which the Minister has now told us. I guess it kept me busy.

We are delighted that the Government have accepted one of the two recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I am speaking to oppose the Question that Clause 8 stand part of the Bill. As the Minister referred to, this is the other recommendation of the DPRRC. That committee was clear in its assessment of the Bill:

“Although ARIA is to be created by Act of Parliament, clause 8 allows Ministers to dissolve it by an affirmative statutory instrument. They cannot do so for another ten years and they must consult ARIA before doing so. They do not have to offer any reasons.”


The DPRRC continues:

“We object to this on principle. If Parliament creates a body, it should be for Parliament to dissolve the body. It should not be for Ministers to dissolve it by statutory instrument, even an affirmative instrument.”


The DPRRC could not be clearer. The Minister’s response to that was simply that he did not agree. We knew he would not agree, but this is a very influential committee and what it says matters.

Although I am calling for Clause 8 not to stand part of the Bill, there are parts of that clause that the Government might want to salvage. This gives the Government an opportunity to come back, perhaps with another lengthy set of amendments on Report. It is a chance for the Minister to accept the view of this influential committee, just as he has on Clause 10.

The Minister will point to the fact that this statutory instrument is affirmative, but he will do so knowing that this is a poor alternative. The dissolution of ARIA will throw up issues—not the sort of issues faced by the organisation that the Minister chose to use as an example of one which a statutory instrument has been used to dissolve in the past. For example, when and if ARIA comes to be dissolved, the fate of assets will be crucial. By then, the taxpayer will probably have poured billions of pounds into creating those assets. Parliament needs a say on how they will be allocated in future yet, as we know, statutory instruments are unamendable—take it or leave it. As I have often rehearsed on other Bills, your Lordships’ House virtually always takes them, sometimes with a touch of regret, but takes them none the less. Primary legislation, however, is amendable. It gives Parliament a role in deciding the fate of the organisation and these assets, which, I remind the Government, the taxpayers have created through their investment. That is just one of the recommendations of the DPRRC. It should be honoured. I beg to move.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Fox. I have a lot of sympathy with what he has to say. We welcome the government amendments, which act on the concerns of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and remove Clause 10 from the Bill. We can only hope that this is something of a sign of good habits to come and that the Government will prove attentive to the committee’s concerns about other legislation.

On Clause 8, where the Government have chosen not to act on the committee’s objection, rather than repeat everything that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, just said, I look forward to the Minister’s reply. I think the best way to sum up the DPRRC’s concern over the clause is that the Government were designing the law for convenience rather than necessity. It also made the point that, after 10 years or longer of ARIA’s operation, the agency would be well established and dissolving it might be a bit more complicated than Clause 8 suggests. Let us hope that ARIA makes it to 10 years.

We are content with the changes made by this group, but it would be helpful to the Committee for the Minister to respond in a bit more detail to some of the concerns. Can he outline how the Government envisage the winding down of ARIA would be managed? In particular, how would parliamentarians be kept informed and, aside from ARIA, who does he think it might be a good idea to consult before bringing forward regulations under Clause 8?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I just want to make a quick observation about this. Obviously, we have argued to have climate as ARIA’s overriding priority, and we stand by that—but should that not be the case, this amendment would not cause any problems were it not for the fact that the Government were declining amendments on oversight and scrutiny. I do not think that the two are incompatible. You can have an independent agency, and we would not wish to have government interference, but there is no compromising of independence by allowing for freedom of information or some of the other measures that we have suggested.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I took the time to discuss this amendment with the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, on completely representing her views on it—but, strangely, we approach this from opposite directions and land in the same place, similarly to the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman. There is a false dichotomy here. Just because an organisation has a purpose does not mean to say that it cannot be independent. On that basis, it is important for it to be independent, and it is equally important for it to have a purpose—and that purpose should be climate change.

Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Fox

Committee stage
Wednesday 17th November 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I am now going to indulge in some groupthink by agreeing with the last speaker and the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. The Government fail to take her advice on corporate governance at their peril. All her amendments are sensible and ones that I hope the Minister, who clearly will not endorse them today, will be able to take away, think about and maybe amend a little to put the Government’s thumbprint on them. I suggest that it would be helpful to look at them seriously.

Amendments 5 and 7, as we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, seek to inculcate the House of Commons Select Committee into the appointments process, at least at some point within it. Noble Lords will see, later on in the Bill, that Amendment 32 also seeks to carve out an ongoing role for that Select Committee. Clearly, if I were to stand by Amendment 32, Amendments 5 and 7 would also make a lot of sense, in that they will be there at the beginning.

It may be out of kilter or otherwise, but this set of amendments really looks at the membership and members of the board. I have a quick query, which may just be me getting things confused. The Minister kindly sent around the draft of the SI on conflicts of interests. Of course, this may come in when we come to talk about the fourth group of amendments. It refers to “members” throughout, and I am not clear what a member of this organisation is, which made me think that I am not actually clear what the legal structure of this organisation is. I think there is some work to do to help me—if no one else—through. Is this an incorporated association? Is it a company limited by guarantee? What is it? Until we know that, some of the other things that we need to discuss will become very difficult.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I will quickly put on record our position on this. I am also fascinated to find out why this issue of the Chief Scientific Adviser is there. I can imagine why, and I am speculating as to why, but I would like to know what the Minister had in his head in proposing that.

I put on record our support for Amendments 5 and 7 in particular. One of the themes from us on this Bill is about trying to enhance democratic engagement with ARIA—not control or oversight, but we think that there is space for some engagement there.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. I had not had the pleasure of hearing from her at such length as we have today, and I am very impressed by her contributions. The issue of borrowing money is a concern. There is clearly the potential for financial risk but also significant reputational risk when a level of borrowing might emerge that may seem unduly risky. I am concerned about that and interested in what the Minister will say to prevent that concern doing any damage to ARIA.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, rarely have I got to the end of a speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and been crying out for more. On her second amendment, I wanted to know what she had against partnerships and joint ventures. I do not think there was a clear under -standing as to why that is a particular concern, given that many research processes go ahead collaboratively as joint ventures, partnerships or co-projects. I am interested to know, because I am sure there is a good reason; I just do not know what it is. While we are talking about that amendment, I would be pleased if the Minister could confirm that, whatever relationship ARIA is putting together, the National Security and Investment Act applies. I assume that to be the case.