Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Debate between Lord Adonis and Baroness Hanham
Lord Adonis
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for the very great care and attention she has taken in meeting representatives of the national parks and other interested parties and also meeting noble Lords to discuss this issue. It is a model of how a Minister should handle these conversations and I compliment her. In the notes that the noble Baroness circulated to us of the meeting with the national parks representatives, the record of the meeting says that the Minister from the DCMS, Ed Vaizey, gave an undertaking that the drafting of the code of practice would be a collaborative exercise. Can she put on record for the benefit of those who wish to collaborate that the Government will indeed be consulting them, intensively and extensively, as this code of practice is drawn up?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord has seen from the other amendments that are coming up that we will be discussing the code of practice on probably the next amendment or the one after. At that stage I believe that I will be able to give the noble Lord the assurances he seeks.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, because the noble Baroness has a very important amendment in this group, perhaps I might speak after her rather than before.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I would be delighted to speak to Amendment 36A. I will just find it in my notes. In essence, Amendment 36A ensures that the duty that already exists under Section 109 of the Communications Act 2003 for the Secretary of State to have regard for the environment and beauty of the countryside will be deemed to meet the “have regard” duties set out in protected areas legislation, when the Secretary of State comes to make regulations under Section 109.
Subsections (2), (3), (4), (6) and (7) of Clause 8 caused concern because they disapplied the express “have regard” duty imposed on the Secretary of State when making regulations. As the noble Lord knows, and the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, has been kind enough to indicate, we have listened to concerns and have removed those express disapplications.
The drafting approach could not be replicated in exactly the same way in relation to the “have regard” duty referred to in Clause 8(5) because that is not a duty of the Secretary of State but is specific to a statutory undertaker within the relevant Norfolk and Suffolk Broads Act 1988. However, by using a similar approach, the definition of statutory undertaker within that Act, for the limited period of five years, has been aligned with the policy so as to avoid the express disapplication of the “have regard” duty.
I hope that the amendment reassures the House that our intention was only to ensure that the right legal framework was put in place and that we had no wish to unpick the distinct and settled legislative framework that applies to the national parks. I emphasise that the purpose of our reforms is to ensure that fixed broadband deployment is not held back in the small minority of cases where local planning authorities and communications providers are not able to agree the best siting. The Government remain convinced that the natural environment and landscape are of crucial importance, which is why there will be a number of important safeguards. I could move on to other aspects, but I think that was the bit the noble Lord asked me to speak to.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, who has pursued this issue throughout the passage of the Bill and has achieved a very significant step forward on the part of the Government.
What we need to be clear about is when the Secretary of State will continue to be under a duty to have regard to,
“the need to protect the environment and, in particular, to conserve the natural beauty and amenity of the countryside”,
as required by Section 109(2)(b) of the Communications Act 2003. It is absolutely critical, in the desire that we all share to see the extension of broadband to the national parks and other areas of outstanding natural beauty, that a real obligation with a statutory foundation will continue to be placed on the Secretary of State to have regard to the need to conserve and enhance their natural beauty.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I was remiss in not thanking noble Lords who have thanked me very graciously. I hope we are still in that position when we get to the end of today but for the moment I will accept it with gratitude. It has been my pleasure—and always is—to have discussions with noble Lords and relevant people associated with the Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has said, the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, has moved and shaken this aspect of the Bill and I am delighted that we have now achieved what she and other noble Lords are happy to accept.
With regard to the point about “having regard to”, the Secretary of State’s responsibility for having regard to is not changed by this legislation. It is just amalgamated into one area so it does not have to wander its way through all sorts of bits of legislation. I hope the noble Lord will be happy to accept that.
The Government have never intended to ride roughshod over the protected areas legislation but to ensure that there was sufficient legal certainty in the primary legislation when bringing forward our proposed changes to secondary legislation. Our policy goal is to simplify the planning regime so that the rollout of fixed superfast broadband—so urgently awaited in many of our rural communities—is not held back unnecessarily in the small minority of cases where planning authorities and communications providers are unable to agree the best siting for equipment. The noble Lord asked me a question and I have answered. He is in a position to wind up for his side. Does he wish to speak again?
Baroness Hanham
In Committee, at the noble Lord’s suggestion, I undertook to meet representatives from the English National Park Authorities Association. We did so, with Ministers from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. I met representatives from the English national parks and the National Association for Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty, who highlighted their overriding concern that the express disapplication of the “have regard” duty would set an unwelcome precedent. Following this meeting, we undertook to consider if we could find an alternative way to ensure legal certainty—and that is a more formal response to the noble Lord—and give the necessary powers to amend regulations. I am delighted that, following further discussions between the officials, we have been able to table this amendment which directly addresses the concerns raised and has been welcomed by the English National Park Authorities Association. Amendment 36A picks up that duty.
The purpose of our reforms is to ensure that fixed broadband deployment is not held back in the small minority of cases where local planning authorities and communications providers are not able to agree the best siting. I hope that, after all we have done, this will not become an issue. Should it be, however, at any stage, this is the way it will be managed by the providers.
The Government remain convinced that the natural environment and landscape are of crucial importance, which is why there will be a number of important safeguards. First, the voluntary code on siting best practice for operators and planning authorities will have input from the national parks as the English National Park Authorities Association is involved in the working group which will draft the code. Secondly, communications providers will remain under a statutory duty to consult the local planning authorities on their proposed deployments.
The noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, asked me whether anybody other than BT would be committed by these clauses and amendments. We recognise that there will be other communications providers as well as BT. All providers will be involved in drafting the code and will be committed to complying with it. I have not been given the answer to the question of whether other providers would be able to use BT’s infrastructure, but I hope to know it before I come to the end of my speech.
First, as I said, the voluntary code on siting best practice for operators and planning authorities will have input and secondly, communications providers will remain under a statutory duty to consult local planning authorities. Thirdly, “environmental sustainability” is a requirement of the Broadband Delivery UK contracts in the areas to which they apply, meaning that local authorities are able to specify particular requirements in their Broadband Delivery UK contracts if they wish to do so.
The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, who has expressed support for the amendment—for which I am grateful—presented figures in Committee regarding planning approvals in national parks and suggested that the proposed relaxation of planning controls was unnecessary. I have written to colleagues and responded to the noble Lord’s points. Only a small proportion of those figures which the noble Lord quoted relate specifically to the installation of superfast broadband, which is, as he knows, still in its very early stages in these areas, while the larger proportion will be for voice services for the most part. While the figures show a high percentage of approvals, there has been no indication of the time taken for the decisions to be made. Our proposals are about ensuring certainty across all areas to aid investment decisions and ensure that resources can be deployed efficiently.
We have listened carefully to the concerns and have brought forward Amendment 36A to address them. Crucially, it has the support of the English National Park Authorities Association and the valuable support of my noble friend Lady Parminter. I hope that the House will support it.
The amendment will ensure that the duty that already exists under Section 109 of the Communications Act 2003 for the Secretary of State to have regard to the environment and beauty of the countryside will be deemed to meet the “have regard” duties set out in protected areas legislation when the Secretary of State comes to make regulations under Section 109.
I hope that I have dealt with questions that I have been asked. I shall therefore move Amendment 36A and hope that, with the explanations that I have given, my noble friend Lady Parminter will be willing to withdraw Amendment 36.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, the Minister’s explanation was clear and the position that she has taken is extremely important in preserving the requirement to enhance and conserve the natural beauty of the national parks. We therefore welcome her concessions in the amendment.
Perhaps I may put on the record the conclusions of the meeting which the Minister held with the representatives of the national parks, because they are quite important for how we proceed hereafter—as the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, so rightly said, what is said in this House forms a benchmark for what happens afterwards. At the conclusion of the meeting, the Minister for Culture, Ed Vaizey, emphasised that the clause is not about stigmatising national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty as obstacles. Representatives of the national parks and the areas of outstanding natural beauty reiterated their belief that there was no evidence that they cause issues with deployments and said that they do a lot of work on the issue. Ed Vaizey agreed that national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty do some excellent partnership working. He offered to facilitate regular meetings with representatives of the national parks, areas of outstanding natural beauty and BT to discuss the rollout of superfast broadband in their areas and to ensure that they continue to support deployment and that any issues can be resolved quickly.
Those assurances given to the national parks by the Minister are extremely important. I think it is important to put them on the record and to state very clearly that your Lordships expect that the Government and BT will hold fast to those commitments and will consult intensively and extensively with the representatives of the national parks and the areas of outstanding natural beauty to see that we get the rollout of superfast broadband in the national parks—where there are large numbers of residents and businesses that badly need it—in the most sensitive way possible that conserves and enhances their natural beauty.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I know it is not up to me to intervene again but as we come on to the next amendment it may be helpful to say that I will probably be able to give the noble Lord the assurances he seeks on that as well. With the leave of the House, I should like to answer the question of the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, which was whether any other operators apart from BT will be able to use the BT infrastructure or whether they would have to put in their own. BT is under a regulatory obligation to share its infrastructure.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, I agree with the very last words of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. I have huge admiration for my noble friend Lord Judd, but even he would accept that they are not his national parks but the nation’s parks. That is why the concerns that have been raised this afternoon are so significant. They are held in trust for the nation, and we want to see that their beauty is preserved and enhanced for subsequent generations so that all the good work done by my noble friend is not wasted in the years ahead.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, nobody in this House would disagree with the last remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. We all have an interest and are all convinced that we want to keep hold of the beauty of the national parks and preserve them from totally inappropriate infrastructure. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, rather suggested that what I was saying was mere words. I hope that noble Lords will take it a step beyond that. In fact, mere words can be made to translate intention into real life. The scrutiny that this House has given this clause is invaluable because it will be exactly and precisely recorded how the broadband operators are going to work and how everybody is going to co-operate. The reasoning behind the clause will be made clear.
The noble Lord, Lord Judd, kept saying, “Why is this clause necessary at all?”. When we started this afternoon, I gave a rather truncated version of why the clause is necessary. It will make sure that the providers know how long this whole process will take. Everybody wants this completed as soon as possible. If there are problems at any stage that hold that up and that cannot be dealt with by the code of practice, the consultations or the discussions between all the parties, at the end of the day the operators will know that they can proceed—although it will probably be over everybody’s dead body. We believe that that is important. Goodness knows, we all know of many projects that get held up because people disagree and nobody will come to a conclusion, but this will ensure that there is a conclusion and that the process can proceed. Again, I expect there to be a hold-up in a very limited number of cases but, should those cases arise, these provisions will be helpful for carrying on and ensuring that we deliver broadband as quickly as we possibly can.
It may be of interest to noble Lords to know that for the first time Ofcom has published something called the European Broadband Scorecard. I am sure that noble Lords have all lit on this as something which has the lightness of touch that they want to read at night as they go to bed. It is intended to allow the Government to measure progress towards their ambition. The scorecard currently shows that the United Kingdom is performing well among the major European economies. We currently benefit from low prices and a high degree of competition in the broadband market, and so far the UK has the best deals available for consumers across a selection of pricing bundles in the major European economies. On superfast broadband coverage, this country currently ranks in third place behind Germany and Spain. Clause 8 is intended to help to improve on that position by making sure that we achieve our goals by 2015.
We recognise that more rural and remote areas, including protected areas, are where an infrastructure upgrade is needed the most. We also recognise that they are some of the areas in the country where there is most sensitivity. However, we do not want those rural areas to be left behind.
The national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty have been key partners in the rollout of broadband and we very much welcome their involvement, their commitment to the process and their conclusion that the first amendment I moved, in particular, was satisfactory and solved their particular problems.
Things are already happening. Connecting Cumbria is a partnership which has brought together a range of partners who are already working together and improving the broadband process. When Ed Vaizey, the Minister for Culture, Communications and Creative Industries, and I met with representatives from the national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty, he confirmed—and I confirm again what I said in relation to the previous amendment—his intention to continue working closely and having regular meetings with them throughout the deployment of superfast broadband.
The Government remain convinced that the natural environment and landscape is of vital importance. That is why the code of best siting practice for operators and planning authorities will have input from the national parks. That is why the duty that we are adding to promote economic growth sits alongside the other duties, including,
“the need to protect the environment and, in particular, to conserve the natural beauty and amenity of the countryside”.
That is why “environmental sustainability” is a condition of the Broadband Delivery UK contracts.
The rollout of superfast broadband is of national importance because of the contribution that it can make to GDP growth, apart from anything else. It is, however, an infrastructure that is built locally. Local authorities know their areas and that is why the Government have given them a central role in all this. They are in charge of the Broadband Delivery UK contracts in their areas and will be able to set their own conditions on those contracts. For example—and here I underline the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis—if they want to, they can specify in the contracts that in certain areas cables must be underground. They can also specify requirements in respect of the visual impact of installations. This can include compliance with the code of best siting practice, when it has been agreed, which it is hoped will be in May.
A number of questions have been raised as to why, given the excellent work under way from the national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty, this clause is necessary. I hope that I gave the answer to that in my opening response. It is crucial not only that we achieve value for money from the investment that we make but that we get speed broadband developed as quickly as we possibly can.
It is important to make the point that we are not suggesting that without this clause applications for cabinets or poles will be turned down. We recognise that the vast majority of applications for telecoms equipment have been accepted to date and that the national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty are extremely keen to work with us on broadband coverage. I have given the reasons for this clause twice now, so I will not go through them again.
It is also about providing local authorities with a choice of deployment options. The relaxation of the restriction on new overhead lines does not mean that it will become the default deployment option. Perhaps I may also make it clear, for the avoidance of doubt, that the intention is not to use the Clause 8 power to remove prior approval requirements for mobile masts. This measure is being introduced to provide flexibility and an additional deployment option to enable superfast broadband to be deployed in the more commercially challenging parts of the UK.
We have had an excellent discussion on this clause. We have spent quite a lot of time on it in this House and I do not regret that at all. At the end of the day—and I hope at the end of today—we will all have provided answers to some of the many questions that have been raised. I hope that, as a result of what we have done in the House today and the work that has been undertaken, we can be sure that superfast broadband will be rolled out as quickly as possible. With that, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, will feel satisfied enough to be able to withdraw his amendment.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I think not. I have been told that it will be available before secondary legislation.
Lord Adonis
What is the big problem about analysing 1,000 responses in time to allow your Lordships’ House to see them before we proceed to Third Reading?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, they will be ready before secondary legislation. If they can be ready at any stage before that I will make sure that they are, but I am advised that it will be at the secondary legislation stage. I rely for my response—
Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Debate between Lord Adonis and Baroness Hanham
Lord Adonis
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, has made a very powerful argument of principle. He has also pointed out that the sums of money involved are considerable, and it should of course be the Government’s job, if we are promoting growth and development, to see that the costs to businesses are kept at the lowest level possible. That is clearly not being done at the moment. The noble Lord quoted a daily rate, which of course is high for professional people such as these. The National Infrastructure Planning Association estimates that on its conservative assumption of single inspectors examining applications four days out of five, panels of three inspectors examining on nine days out of 10 and panels of five examining on 19 days out of 20, the total overcharging has been of the order of £470,000. The sums of money that we are talking about are considerable.
However, the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, kindly wrote to me on this issue, because we had a long debate about it in Committee. She made an argument which I think is worthy of consideration but that leaves me wanting to ask her a question. Her argument is that the principle at stake should not be the number of days worked but a reasonable recovery of costs. In her letter to me, she says:
“We do not therefore consider that it is helpful to focus purely on the days worked by Examining Inspectors or the time that they record as there are wider costs involved in the process of examining a nationally significant infrastructure project”.
If that is the defence of the policy—that the relevant consideration is not the number of days worked but the recovery of costs—I think the Minister should feel bound to give the House information about how the costs relate to the charges that have been made. If the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, is not in a position to give that information to the House this evening, would he please write to us with it afterwards? For my part, and I suspect for the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, we might wish to return to this on Third Reading.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)
I am delighted to return to this matter today. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, for the way he has introduced it. It is always worrying when the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, says something is a disgrace, because it is not usual language. I am sorry; I do not think I am quite in that category. But there we are.
We have discussed this previously, and I did write to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, as he said. He did not quite finish off what I said in my letter, which was that the way of doing the fees was, as he quoted:
“to focus purely on the days worked by Examining Inspectors or the time they record”.
I went on to say that that,
“was recognised by the previous Government when drawing up the Regulations”.
This is not new. It has not just appeared. I then said:
“The fees therefore cover work carried out both by the Examining authority and persons supporting the Examining authority during the whole of the examination period”.
That is what the fees are for.
This Government, like the previous Government, do not accept that the fees regime for major infrastructure should be structured along the narrow lines suggested by this amendment. One of the policy aims when the regulations were put in place was to,
“introduce a charging scheme that is fair in the sense of charging fees broadly in proportion to the resource cost incurred in processing applications”.
There is a clear indication from this that it is a recovery of costs as much as anything else. That is why we do not believe that it is particularly helpful to focus purely on the days worked by the examiners. As I mentioned in Committee, it is important to recognise that these fees also cover the costs of staff who administer and manage the applications and provide support for the examining authority. It is on that important supporting infrastructure that we are looking to make recovery, as did the previous Government. We are clear that, even now, PINS do not cover their full costs under this regime. It is not exactly a money-spinner.
We are aware that some developers have questioned the interpretation of the 2010 infrastructure fees regulations—
Lord Adonis
If the noble Baroness will forgive me, the issue is not whether PINS at large cover their costs but whether, as the noble Baroness said in her letter to me, the costs associated with the applications themselves are being recovered. Is she in a position to tell me whether, on disaggregating the costs, the costs relating to specific applications are being fully recovered at the moment, if that is the yardstick?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, they are being fully recovered, as I understand it. No, I think it is right to say that they are not being fully recovered. I should not try to take messages. I will write with that detail to the noble Lord before Third Reading.
We have just laid new regulations, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said. Broadly speaking they provide that, first, applicants will not be charged for weekends and public holidays unless those days were required for the handling of the application; secondly, applicants will not be charged for days where the examination has been formally suspended; and, thirdly, the Secretary of State may decide not to charge for other days because of sickness or any other circumstances notified to the applicant. It is very clear that what are being charged for are the days on which work is taking place and not weekends. It would probably be a full five days, but not at weekends and not if somebody goes off sick who is important to the hearing. If there are other circumstances, they can be notified. Those regulations have been laid and are therefore there for people to comment upon.
We have tried, as the previous Government did, to ensure that with this regime there is as near a recovery of costs as there could be in a way that is understood and fair. If the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, was saying that the explanation up until now has not been fair because it has not been understood, I hope noble Lords will think that our regulations, having been laid, provide a good explanation and good support for the fees structure. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I shall speak briefly to Amendment 48A, which is grouped with these amendments. This re-examines the situation where there are commercial and business projects with housing. I am grateful to the Minister for her letter yesterday. There is this tension between projects which include housing and which are therefore excluded and those that do not include housing. In her letter the Minister does not say what consultees felt about the moving of housing from the scope of Clause 24, only that there was comment on whether the exclusion of housing from the regime, although widely supported, would limit the number of mixed-use schemes.
This amendment would be a useful way of dealing with projects that are nationally significant commercial or business projects being considered under the Planning Act, but it would also strengthen the “town centres first” approach in the National Planning Policy Framework. Despite what the Minister said in Committee, it does not counter the Government’s line that planning for housing should remain a core responsibility of local authorities, as set out in the NPPF. They do have a role, but it would be useful to hear the Minister’s comments as to when there is a small housing element within a larger development. I look forward to what the Minister has to say in response.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for tabling these amendments, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said, we discussed and considered quite carefully in Committee. The amendments seek to limit the types of development and development sites which can and cannot be considered nationally significant under Clause 24. As noble Lords are aware, the purpose of Clause 24 is to extend the existing powers within the Planning Act to direct certain forms of proposed development into the Planning Act regime to new forms of business and commercial development if it is of national significance.
Amendments 48ZB and 48ZD would rule out proposed schemes using the regime if they were on sites of special environmental or historic importance or if they involved minerals extraction or quarrying. They would also apply to existing types of infrastructure, such as energy, transport and water, as well as to new forms of business and commercial schemes. When we debated the amendments in Committee, I explained that one effect would be that a potential scheme of national significance, which might otherwise be considered via the Planning Act route, could not be the subject of a direction if part of the site had an environmental designation or was of historic importance. We are fortunate to live in a country that enjoys the benefits of beautiful countryside, about which we heard so much earlier, and a rich and varied historic environment. Although it is unclear what site of environmental or historic importance the noble Lord has in mind, it is worth while reflecting that the National Planning Policy Framework sets out a clear planning framework for development, which might have an impact on areas with a special designation. If a scheme is of national significance and is directed into the regime, the Secretary of State will have to consider all the issues which are both important and relevant, including any impact on the historic or natural environment, before he reaches his decision. We do not believe that it is sensible to exclude from the scheme large parts of the country without proper consideration of the planning merits. That could also discourage developers bringing forward new infrastructure or other forms of development vital to the country.
The noble Lord has also sought to exclude surface mineral extraction or quarrying. Perhaps I may explain our thinking on minerals a little more, as I think that he thought that I was a bit wobbly last time. As we explained and recognised in the National Policy Planning Framework, minerals are essential to support sustainable economic growth and our quality of life. For example, without minerals, our building industry would grind to a halt. It is important that there is a sufficient supply of material to provide the infrastructure, buildings, energy and goods that we need. That is why we sought views on whether some mineral schemes could be capable of using the nationally significant infrastructure regime.
However, I would say again what I said in Committee. We are considering consultation responses and we need to take them into account before we reach a final view on whether mineral schemes should form part of the proposals at all. I remind noble Lords that the accompanying regulations, which are required to prescribe the types of development, will be subject to the affirmative procedure, so we will have an opportunity to discuss them in detail later.
The noble Lord has also spoken again to the amendment which would require the Secretary of State to give reasons when making a direction. We covered that briefly in Committee. Although I do not disagree with the noble Lord on the point of substance, the amendment is unnecessary. The Secretary of State is already required to give reasons for his decision when making a direction under Section 35(10), and that requirement is carried forward in new Section 35ZA(10) in Clause 24. That is why we do not think the amendment is necessary.
Amendment 48AA would then require the Secretary of State to make decisions on development consent orders for business and commercial developments where there is no national policy statement in place to be made in accordance with the relevant local plan. As we set out in our recent consultation document on the new business and commercial category of development, the Government do not think the case for one or more national policy statements is strong for that category of development. Again, we have been considering the responses to consultation. Only about a third of the responses that we received said they thought a national policy statement should be prepared.
I should stress that, unlike nationally significant forms of infrastructure, which are brought automatically into the regime, the clause does not make it mandatory that developers use the major infrastructure regime. They may make a request to the Secretary of State to use the Planning Act regime or they may continue to submit their planning application to the local council. It is entirely a matter for them under the circumstances.
The noble Lords, Lord Jenkin and Lord Berkeley, once again raised the very important issue of housing and how it should be considered through this planning regime. Perhaps I may say again what importance the Government lay on housing development and also why we think it should remain part of local consideration. We recognise that there are many large, mixed-use schemes that will include an element of housing. Some may have a large amount, as the noble Lord said; some may have very few houses. However, there is also a very pressing need for housing and that is why the Government set out in the National Planning Policy Framework how they expect local planning authorities to help boost the supply of housing in the local area. Each local planning authority therefore should have a clear understanding of the housing needs in its area. It should understand the scale and mix of housing it is likely to need over the local plan period and should plan for the different types of housing it will need, such as for older people and families, and affordable housing. The Government therefore see the delivery of housing by local councils as their core responsibility. We have not ignored the views that have been expressed in this House and elsewhere on whether housing should form part of the infrastructure planning regime. We did not consult specifically on whether housing should be a prescribed form of business and commercial development. It was raised by some respondents, with the majority of them supporting the Government’s position, while a few disagreed.
We recognise that, from time to time, major schemes will come forward that may indicate the need for a decision at the national level. Where there are major residential schemes, such as new settlements with larger than local impacts, the Secretary of State has indicated that we would carefully consider the use of call-in. We believe that is the right approach. We have looked further at the issue of housing but it has not changed our view that we should retain our current position as set out in the Bill. We do not therefore propose to allow development that includes housing to use the infrastructure regime. I hope that clarifies what I think is a sensible approach that will enable new forms of nationally significant development to benefit from the planning regime without it necessarily being mandatory. With those explanations, I hope that the noble Lord will be willing to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for that explanation of the Government’s thinking. I feel bound to make two points. I am not going to press the matter at this late hour. I want to contrast the extremely rigid position she has adopted in respect of developments that include any element of housing—where the Government have given an absolutely categoric view that looks to me to be unduly rigid—with the extreme lack of precision which the noble Baroness has offered the House when it comes to a whole range of other projects such as open-cast mining and quarrying. These may or may not be subject to the nationally significant planning routes depending on decisions that the Government will take care of afterwards. It exemplifies the problem we have in this House of making the law. We are very much dependent on the assurances the Government give us as to what they may or may not do, which we are unable to hold them to.
That leads to me to her response on open-cast mining and quarrying where she said that this will be subject to regulations that will come forward under the affirmative procedure. The great problem in this House is that we have to take statutory instruments or leave them. We do not have the capacity to amend the regulations so the whole set of very important criteria for qualification for the nationally significant planning routes, which will be made hereafter, will be presented to the House on a take-it-or-leave-it basis. If we were making the law in a proper and satisfactory way then, after a proper process of consultation with the results firmly laid before the House, it would be in the Committee and the Report stages of the consideration of this Bill that we took the decision as to what was going to be in the definition of business and commercial projects within the Planning Act 2008 regime.
However, I am well aware that I am whistling in the wind at the moment. I am not going to be able to change the whole legislative process at one minute to 10 this evening but I feel bound at least to make that point because one day, I hope, we will turn ourselves into a properly efficient and satisfactory legislature. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Debate between Lord Adonis and Baroness Hanham(11 years, 3 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Hanham
I understood that that was what the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, was getting at. I have committed to giving him the summary of the responses and have been told that the Government’s response will come in due course. That does not sound to me as if it will come before Report, but if it does, I will let noble Lords know that it is coming.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, raises a point of some substance. I have read the summary of responses which the noble Baroness very kindly sent to me a short while ago. It is supremely uninformative. Question 3 asks:
“Do you agree with our assessment of the factors that the Secretary of State would need to take into account when considering whether a project is nationally significant?”.
The summary of responses says:
“A number of respondents thought the assessment factors were broadly right whilst others commented that they were not detailed enough or were not supported at all”.
I could go through them, but it is a profound exercise in waffle and does not really help us very much. To be fair to the Government, in annexe A of their consultation paper, they set out both specific types of development and very specific criteria in terms of the square metreage for the thresholds that would need to be met before these projects are deemed to be of national significance. That is crucial in informing our view as to whether we think this clause should proceed without requiring further limitation, although I think there is quite a strong preference for seeking to put provisions in the Bill. It would be extremely helpful if the noble Baroness were able, before Report, to indicate whether the Government stick by their proposals in annexe A or are minded to amend them in any form. If that does not come before Report, we will of course have no chance to assess the Government’s intended course of action before this Bill becomes law.
Baroness Hanham
My instinct would say that if it is there, then the Government are going to introduce it and are probably not going to amend it. If there is any change to that, I will let the noble Lord and the Committee know.
Baroness Hanham
If I can get what my noble friend requires, I will make sure he and the Committee get that before Report.
Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Debate between Lord Adonis and Baroness Hanham
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, the answer to the noble Lord’s question is, on both counts, yes. It is part of the regime that there must be pre-application consultation, whether it is going to be done by the local authority or under the major infrastructure plans.
Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Debate between Lord Adonis and Baroness Hanham(11 years, 3 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Hanham
I cannot answer the noble Lord’s question. He probably does not really expect me to answer it here. The consultation process will begin to throw up some of that information if we do not have it. If we do have the information, I shall see that noble Lords receive it.
The second proposal removes the prior approval requirements for broadband cabinets in protected areas. Of course, the cabinets have to be there, otherwise you cannot have broadband. They have to be at certain spaces and there are all sorts of things about broadband cabinets that require them to be placed in a specific location. We are bringing forward Clause 8 to enable us to make these amendments to the communications code through secondary legislation.
Let me be clear that the removal of prior approval will be temporary, as noble Lords have seen in the consultation which sets out a period of five years. By limiting the window to five years, this will also ensure that the operators have an incentive to get on with the rollout of that business and community need.
Lord Adonis
The noble Baroness said that the requirement for prior approval will be removed. However, she still has not told the Committee how that will accelerate the deployment of superfast broadband, given that there appear to be virtually no cases where the prior approval process has held up the deployment of superfast broadband in the national parks and in areas of outstanding natural beauty.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I have about another 15 pages in my brief.
Again, referring to the consultation paper, in the national parks, there are more than 22,000 businesses, of which more than 70% are small and medium-sized enterprises, as noble Lords have said. There are more than 153,000 homes and we know that there is a lot of demand for it. The proposed changes are about creating certainty and reducing the time and cost of deployments. Evidence to date from commercial deployment shows that deployment can be held up by planning decisions. In conservation areas where planning permission is currently required for broadband, there is evidence that it has been held up for 27 months by the need for consultation. This has resulted in the new broadband service not being provided in these areas.
Lord Adonis
The noble Baroness referred to conservation areas but did not cite any evidence in respect of national parks.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I was citing the reason for the process in conservation areas taking up to two- and-a-half years. Under the measures on which we are consulting, local authorities will still be involved.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, first, we need some speed to get this done. As the noble Lord will know, so far there has been very little deployment of broadband in areas of natural beauty and it is estimated that 85% of premises will not be reached by the market unless we can speed things up. This is at least a contribution to speeding up the provision of broadband in the rural areas where, at the moment, it is not very significant.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, that does not meet the point at all. The evidence which the national parks have given to noble Lords shows that 97% of several hundred applications—I think 292 have been made under the pre-notification procedure—have been agreed by the national parks authorities. I am sorry to keep putting this to the noble Baroness but it is a fairly fundamental issue. There has been a large number of applications, and we obviously want a great deal more so that we have a great deal more rollout of superfast broadband in the national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty. However, almost all those that have been brought forward have been agreed. Does the noble Baroness have any evidence at all that there are cases which the Committee should take into consideration where the planning authorities themselves have been slowing down a rollout of broadband that would otherwise have taken place?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl. I will make sure that that is considered and give him an answer before next time—as I will with the other matters raised before Report.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, it is always good to try to be constructive. Given the scale of the concern that has been expressed in the Committee and the noble Baroness’s good intentions—as always—to seek to meet legitimate concerns which have been raised, I wonder whether she and the Planning Minister, Nick Boles, would agree to meet the chief executives of the national parks authorities before Report? They could discuss this matter directly and go into the specific issue of how superfast broadband can be rolled out more swiftly and effectively while seeking to preserve the landscape and not subvert the existing planning system.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, the noble Lord knows that I am always happy to have meetings that are relevant to the legislation. Let me look into what would be sensible and the best way of setting up such meetings before Report. I give him an undertaking that I will do that.
Lord Adonis
I very much welcome that commitment from the noble Baroness. I hope that Mr Boles will also be present at the meeting and that we can make some good progress so that when this matter comes back on Report we do not have to have the same debate yet again.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, on the basis that the Minister is content to meet the chief executives of the national park authorities before Report—
Baroness Hanham
I am content to meet their representatives. If we confine ourselves to chief executives, they may not be able to come in time, but I will certainly meet the organisations.
Lord Adonis
On that basis, my Lords, after an hour and 48 minutes, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Debate between Lord Adonis and Baroness Hanham
Lord Adonis
My Lords, on the Motion to go into Committee, perhaps I may raise a concern of which I have given the Minister notice. At Second Reading, the noble Baroness undertook to send noble Lords important material relating to the proposed shares-for-rights scheme in Clause 27. In particular, she said that we would be sent the draft guidance for decision-makers in DWP in respect of benefits claimants who decline to accept jobs with no rights and who stand to lose their benefits in consequence.
On 8 January, at col. 109 of the Official Report, I took the noble Baroness to say that we would be able to discuss the guidance in Committee because we cannot properly discuss Clause 27 without it. We are now in Committee and noble Lords have heard nothing from the noble Baroness either about the DWP guidance or in reply to my letter of 9 January, in which I set out a number of other essential factual matters in respect of Clause 27 on which we need information for our examination in Committee. The noble Baroness has not even acknowledged my letter, still less replied to it. She is the last person to be disrespectful to the House, so perhaps she could tell us what is going on.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for giving me notice that he was going to raise this point. I also apologise that he has not received a reply to his letter of 9 January. Unfortunately, it was forwarded from my office to BIS, which is responsible for this clause, and I understand that my noble friend Lord Younger is in the process of replying now. I admit that the discourtesy is mine for not having told the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, that, and I apologise.
Of course, we will not be discussing Clause 27 very soon. I suspect that it will be towards the end of Committee. Therefore, I probably just about fulfilled my obligation when I said that I thought we would be able to discuss it in Committee. Clearly, we will not be able to do so today. The noble Lord has not had that information. However, also clearly, Clause 27 will not be debated today. Perhaps I may stick to the assurance that I gave him at Second Reading when I said that by the time,
“we reach Committee stage, we will be able to deal with some of the more detailed points”.—[Official Report, 8/1/13; col. 109.]
I stand by that.
Lord Adonis
Clarity is very important on this matter. Will the noble Baroness undertake that the DWP guidance for decision-makers in respect of those who stand to lose their benefit will be available to us by the time we get to our discussions on Clause 27?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I am not going to make a firm promise. As I have said, I will do my best to ensure that it is. It is not entirely in my hands, but I understand the point and I will make sure that we should be in a position to be able to do it.
Lord Adonis
I am sorry to take the time of the House again but it is only right that I give the noble Baroness notice that there will be very significant concern on the part of noble Lords across all parts of the House if this absolutely vital information is not available to the House by the time we come to discuss the clause to which it refers.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I do not know whether to start replying to a Second Reading debate or to a clause stand part debate. We effectively have had a round-up of all the aspects that appear in Clause 1. I am in some difficulty because some of what has already been said will be said all over again as we go through the full Committee stage. I am very tempted to do as the noble Lord, Lord Best, invited me to do; namely, to stick purely to the amendment which seeks to delay any designation for 18 months. Taking a short breath, I have decided that I will do a bit of both because some areas have come up that are relevant to the designation. I am sure noble Lords would agree that it probably is not appropriate for me to answer every single aspect at this stage, otherwise we might as well move on to Report now.
I should like to draw the attention of noble Lords to what Clause 1 states:
“A relevant application that would otherwise have to be made to the local planning authority may (if the applicant so chooses) be made instead to the Secretary of State if the following conditions are met at the time it is made … the local planning authority concerned is designated … the development to which the application relates … or the development for which outline planning permission has been granted … is of a description prescribed by the Secretary of State”.
That does not mean, as many noble Lords have tried to indicate, that all the powers of planning are being taken away from local authorities. I tried to make that extremely clear at Second Reading. This is a very constrained part of planning changes. It is a contribution —if I can put it like that—to ensure that planning and development takes place. No one is saying that this is the one thing that will absolutely shift and move planning on and will make it easier for developers to achieve what they want. That is not the situation.
Lord Adonis
Will the Minister tell us where in Clause 1 it says that the power is very constrained. It simply says under subsection (1)(a) of new Clause 62A to be inserted in the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 that,
“the local planning authority … is designated by the Secretary of State”.
It does not say that it is constrained.
Baroness Hanham
Being designated is a constraint because when we eventually get to it, the noble Lord will know that the consultation lays out the criteria for designation, and we will discuss that. The designation by itself is the control and the constraint.
I was trying to say that this was not the only area and aspect that would help planning, development or growth. We have had suggestions at other stages that things such as mortgages and lack of finance are holding up and constraining planning, and I accept that that is the situation. However, concerns have been highlighted about the amount of time it takes for a limited number of authorities to get a planning application through or the quality of the application decision resulting in more appeals being allowed through the system than is acceptable. The purpose of the measure is to deal with a very limited number of authorities which are not measuring up to appropriate standards.
When the designation is made under the criteria which we will discuss at a later stage, it will be done against the background of the two preceding years. The figures will be taken from 2011-12 and 2012-13, so by the time we get to Royal Assent, the 2013 figures will be in. Those will be the two preceding years. The figures will be based on the criteria so we will be able to see what is coming up and local authorities will be able to judge whether or not they are likely to be designated. In terms of delaying the decision—
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I think that it would be the Planning Inspectorate, but nods and winks from over there suggest that I should write to the noble Lord as to whether there is another area to which it could go.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, while the noble Baroness is writing to us, can she also give us the statistics that have been mentioned several times and are quite important to this discussion: the proportion of major applications that the Planning Inspectorate itself determines within 13 weeks? Perhaps the noble Baroness has the figure to hand but, if not, could she let us know?
Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Debate between Lord Adonis and Baroness Hanham
Lord Adonis
I thank the noble Baroness for giving way. These are crucial issues. She says she will update the House as guidance is developed. Will that be before Committee stage?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I do not know the answer to that. I will let the noble Lord and the House know as soon as I can get an indication of when that guidance is going to be available, but I would expect that we would be able to discuss it. We want to give employers and people more choice. Clause 27 does that and when we reach Committee stage, we will be able to deal with some of the more detailed points.
In concluding, I again thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. I believe the measures in this Bill will build on the steps that this Government have already taken to make the planning system simpler and make sure that we encourage economic growth. I hope that we can all agree that freeing up businesses from the swathe of red tape that has engulfed them is a suitable objective for this House in passing legislation. I hope the House will support the Bill. I am sure that it will in the end and I look forward to the discussions in the middle.
Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
Localism Bill
Debate between Lord Adonis and Baroness Hanham(12 years, 8 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Adonis
I strongly support what the right reverend Prelate has just said. In my role as director of the Institute for Government, I joined the cross-party civic delegation from the city of Birmingham that met the Secretary of State last week and raised the issue that the right reverend Prelate has just described about what will happen after the referendum next May if there were to be a positive vote. The view strongly held in the city of Birmingham, and in other cities where the issue of an elected mayor is being debated at the moment, is that it is unacceptable for there to be a full year’s delay between a positive referendum result and the first election of a mayor to take charge of the city’s governance. Essentially, we would have a year of paralysis in which the existing administration would be a lame duck. My noble friend Lord Beecham holds strong views against mayors, but I imagine he will agree that it is not a good idea to leave the government of a great city in a state of limbo for a full 12 months.
The purpose of the amendment tabled by the right reverend Prelate, to which I put my name, is to encourage the Secretary of State to align the first mayoral election with any other election that may be taking place in those cities between May 2012 and May 2013, which is fully within the discretion that the Secretary of State has to make regulations specifying the date of the first election. Even if there were not to be an election in those cities earlier than May 2013, it may be that there is a case for the first election of the mayor to take place before that date.
The Institute for Government published a report a few weeks ago highlighting the paralysis that would follow a positive election result if no election for the mayor were to take place for a year. In that report, we suggested that the first election for the mayor should take place in September 2012. If there is to be an election for police commissioners across the country in November 2012—a matter to be debated by the House later this week—aligning the first mayoral election with the police commissioner election would make a great deal of sense. It may be that the will of the House and of Parliament will be to move the police commissioner election to a later date. Whatever the date of the first elections to take place in cities with a positive referendum result, the first elections after May 2012 should, by the will of the leaders of those cities, take place a great deal sooner than May 2013, and if it is possible to align them with other elections that would be the best course.
What we are looking for from the noble Baroness is a sympathetic response to the argument for an early mayoral election where there is a positive vote in the referendums next May and any encouragement that she can give to the concept of aligning the first mayoral election with any election that might take place sooner than May 2013. In particular, if police commissioner elections are to take place in autumn 2012, any words of encouragement she can give as to the willingness of the Government to bring forward regulations that would align the first mayoral elections with those police commissioner elections would be very well received in Birmingham and in the other cities where there may be a positive referendum result next May.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for raising these matters. I have an immediate answer to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, about whether the orders would come to Parliament: where there is a proposal for a referendum, that is an affirmative order in Parliament. I think I explained that in Committee. It is Parliament’s decision brought forward at the time of the secondary legislation. Mayors will not be forced on any cities, as I have said on many occasions, but cities will be obliged to take it into consideration in a referendum and those will all come to Parliament.
Amendment 151A seeks to take away the power of the Secretary of State to make regulations setting the date of elections for, and the terms of office of, elected mayors. As the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham have said, Amendment 151C seeks to provide that any first mayoral elections shall take place no later than the first date of elections in the area. As the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, explained, that would be any election that was likely to take place after a referendum on 15 November 2012.
As I have explained previously, the regulating power would allow for an earlier first election than May 2013. Such an approach would be in line with previous practice, where first elections for mayors have on occasion taken place in October, before reverting to the usual May cycle. I know the right reverend Prelate and the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, have had discussions with the Secretary of State about this. The most encouraging I can be is to say that the issue is well understood; no decisions have yet been taken on it but we are due to produce secondary legislation before the end of the year and decisions will be taken before then. I am sure the noble Lords will be involved in some of the discussions on that. I cannot give a firm commitment at the moment that that will happen but, as I say, there is a very clear understanding of the proposals made and the reasons and rationale behind them.
Those were not very long answers but they were not very long amendments. I ask noble Lords not to press their amendments in the light of my response.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her assurance that parliamentary approval will be required before designating any authority to have a referendum. However, I am surprised and disappointed that it should be thought necessary for the Secretary of State to prescribe a referendum when it is evident from the absence of any requisition by a mere 5 per cent of the electorate that there is any such interest from the local community to start with.
Moving on to the amendment tabled by the right reverend Prelate and supported by my noble friend, I find it surprising that it should be thought that paralysis would ensue if there was a delay of a year between the referendum and a subsequent mayoral election. It could even have been argued that it would have been better to have followed the precedent of the 1973 local government reorganisation, when a shadow authority was elected and did not actually take office for a year. That actually gave the incoming authority time, on new boundaries and all the rest of it, to assimilate the problems of the area and develop an appropriate response, changing structures and the like. To suggest that it is essential to move straight into the position where the nature of the authority changes during the year strikes me as illogical, potentially disruptive and damaging, and in fact onerous for the newly elected incumbent, should there be any newly elected incumbents to that position. He or she would be entering into office half way through the year, unable to do very much at all about the existing budget, and contending with structures that would be difficult to rearrange in a short time.
Moreover, in terms of cost, surely it would be less expensive to have an election coinciding with the normal municipal election in the following year. I quite take the point made by the noble Baroness that there have been some instances of mid-year referendums, but if one is looking at the issue of cost it is, I should have thought, clearer that there would be a cost saving to have them at the same time as the local election. Indeed, that point has been made for us, conveniently, in connection with the debate over the timing of the elections for police commissioners, if indeed we are to have those.