Brexit: Sectoral Impact Assessments

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 2nd November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I am not going to comment on any legal advice we may have received. We had a referendum on this subject. People voted to leave the European Union. We are going to leave and we are not going to withdraw the notification issued under Article 50, which was approved by both Houses.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, are cross-border transport arrangements the subject of sectoral analysis? If they are, does that mean there has been an examination of problems that might arise in Dover, with huge backlogs of trucks trying to enter the United Kingdom and, indeed, going abroad?

[Lord Callanan]

My previous role—sadly brief—was at the Department for Transport. Of course all these contingencies are being looked at. We will need to consider the full implications of the decision to leave and the negotiations that we are pursuing. Of course that will be one of the pertinent factors.

Brexit: European Union-derived Rights

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 4th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

My Lords, I support both Motions. On the first Motion from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, I can be very brief. I will start with a quote:

“I think it is absolutely right to issue the strongest possible reassurance to EU nationals in this country, not just for moral or humanitarian reasons, but for very, very sound economic reasons as well. They are welcome, they are necessary, they are a vital part of our society, and I will passionately support this motion tonight”.—[Official Report, Commons, 6/7/16; col. 939.]


That was said by Boris Johnson. The Motion he was passionately supporting asked the Government to,

“commit today that EU nationals living in the UK shall have the right to remain”.

He was right, for once. I worry that by letting this question get tied up in the negotiation we risk to years of uncertainty for both sets of people—their nationals here and our nationals there.

The European Council’s draft guidelines say:

“Negotiations under Article 50 … will be conducted as a single package. In accordance with the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, individual items cannot be settled separately”.


That is ominous. Yes, President Tusk and Monsieur Barnier have picked out citizens’ rights as a priority first-phase issue, and, yes, the Prime Minister suggested aiming to strike an early agreement. But it could still be held up behind other first-phase issues such as the money issue—settling the bills—on which negotiations will inevitably be protracted and unpleasant. It is a serious sequencing error to let a win/win common-interest negotiation be held up by a win/lose, zero-sum negotiation —but it could happen.

It could also still be averted—even now—if, before 29 April, before the European Council approves these guidelines, the Government were to do the decent, moral and economically sensible thing, as recommended by the Foreign Secretary on 6 July last year. The Government should be announcing now that those non-UK EU citizens living here will retain the right to do so, and that we expect our partners to follow suit. My answer to the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, is that they would. It is a win/win, and our partners see that, too. We should take the issue off the table right now.

On the second Motion, from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, my particular concern about the amendment that we passed by such a large majority, and which the Commons rejected, was the risk that there would be no deal. My concern was that the Government have as yet given absolutely no commitment, oral or written, that in the event of no deal there would be a meaningful vote in the House of Commons. Indeed, the last time we addressed this question, last week, the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, appeared to be saying that there would be no vote because there would be no deal to vote on. A situation in which there was no deal would be the situation in which we would most need to have a vote.

In the last week, I think the risk of no deal has grown slightly. I had put it at about 30% and it is probably now a little higher than that—not because of Gibraltar and silly interventions from here; not because of the reference to Gibraltar in the European Council draft guidelines, which was absolutely predictable; not because of the absence of any reference to it in the Prime Minister’s letter, since any reference would not have made the slightest difference, so that criticism of her letter is invalid; nor even because of the unfortunate perception that her letter contained a threat to withdraw co-operation against crime and terrorism if we failed to get a good deal on trade. Any such threat would have been seriously counterproductive and would have suggested a dangerously transactional approach to questions of security—but I believe our partners accept that the drafting infelicity was unintentional.

The reason for my concern is a bigger one: the mismatch between the Prime Minister’s bland assertion in her Statement last Wednesday that there would be a phased process of implementation and her insistence that in two years’ time:

“We will take control of our own laws and bring an end to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice in Britain”.—[Official Report, Commons, 29/3/17; col. 252.]


Unsurprisingly, the draft European Council guidelines state:

“Any such transitional arrangements must be clearly defined, limited in time, and subject to effective enforcement mechanisms. Should a time-limited prolongation of Union acquis be considered, this would require existing Union regulatory, budgetary, supervisory and enforcement instruments and structures to apply”.


I do not find anything surprising in that; it is what I would have expected the European Council to be advised to agree, and what it will agree. But it means that, in the transition or implementation phase, the ECJ’s writ will still run in this country—and, presumably, that the European Union’s resistance to our cherry-picking of the acquis would apply to an interim phase just as much as to a permanent position. So, despite the great repeal Bill and despite losing our votes in the Council and the Parliament, we would still be applying all EU laws during the transitional phase. That is not exactly what Mr Davis told the other place and is quite a climbdown from Mrs May. Therefore, the risk of the Government walking out has grown.

That is why it really is troubling that the Government are giving no commitment to a meaningful vote in the Commons in the event that the Government decide to throw in the towel and walk out with no deal or no transition deal. With all due respect to the Prime Minister, “No deal is better than a bad deal” is plain wrong, and Mr Johnson was wrong to say that to leave with no deal would be “perfectly okay”. The Commons Brexit committee’s report, the CBI and the IoD are all correct in saying that no deal would be a disaster. If the Government were to head for the cliff edge, Parliament must be given the chance to require them to think again—to seek an extension of the negotiations or to consult the country. That is the principal reason why I strongly support the Motion from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. Parliament needs to work out how best to ensure that it gets its say on the emerging outcome of the negotiations, particularly if it does not match Mrs May’s aspirations, and particularly if the outcome is no deal—and Parliament needs to work out how to do so in good time, before the die is cast.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall be brief. I have a simple question for the Minister: what happens if there is a blockage in the negotiations on these matters in the wider European Union? In principle, is it possible for the UK to enter into bilateral agreements with 27 individual nation states offering rights to national residency in the UK in return for reciprocal rights for UK citizens living in the Union? The advantage of bilaterals if we hit a stalemate would be that any state opposing such concessions at the time of final settlement of these matters could find their own citizens’ rights in the UK in jeopardy and subject to review. It would have the effect of moving the debate to the capitals of obstructive states in the circumstances of a blockage in the negotiations. I wonder if the Minister might be able to help us with that very simple question.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, like the proverbial Irishman, I would not have started from here. We have to be careful that we do not continually refight the same battles, but that does not mean that we cannot repeatedly restate the same principles.

I remain of the same view that I did the day after the referendum, 24 June last year. I deeply regret the result, and I thought that the first and most positive thing that we could and should do would be to guarantee the rights of EU nationals in this country—I was a week ahead of Boris Johnson. We would have taken the moral high ground; we would have lost nothing; we would have made an extremely important gesture, which I believe would have been reciprocated. My noble friend Lord Bridges, who will be replying to this debate, knows very well that that has been my view throughout, and I have repeated it in this Chamber on a number of occasions.

However, as someone said a few moments ago, we are where we are. What is now crucial—my noble friend Lord Hailsham made this point—is to ensure that we guarantee as soon as possible the right of EU nationals. I am confident that there would be reciprocation. We do not want to let this drag on for two years.

Uncertainty was referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, in her admirable opening speech. We all know from our personal lives that nothing is more mentally debilitating than uncertainty. Whether it is concern over a loved one with illness or over a job, if we have uncertainty, we cannot plan ahead, look forward with confidence or aspire. Every human being has the human right to all those things. I very much hope that, when my noble friend comes to wind up, he will be able not only to state his personal agreement but to say that the Government will indeed report back to Parliament and that he will do all in his power—I am sure that he has great negotiating skills—to bring this uncertainty for 3 million human beings in our country to an early and a hopeful end.

I also find myself in agreement with the Motion spoken to persuasively by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. We have said these things before in innumerable debates, but the cry from those who did not think that they would win, but did, was, “We want to take back control”. Control where? In a parliamentary democracy, control can lie in only one place, and that is Parliament—particularly in the House which has supreme power, the elected House, but, to a degree, in your Lordships’ House, too.

We must never forget that the single, cardinal principle of our democracy is that government is accountable to Parliament, and Parliament is accountable to the electorate. It is crucial that we have not only discursive debates—which, in a sense, is what we are having tonight—but debates with real purpose and real votes at the end of them. That is not because I want in any way to circumscribe the freedom of those who will be negotiating on our behalf, but because I want them to be answerable to us and, particularly, to the other place.

Brexit: Negotiation Programme

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 20th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister told the Liaison Committee in December, the negotiations will be conducted at a number of levels. She said that she would have a role to play relating to discussions with other European leaders and that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State would have an important role to play. Other technical negotiations and discussions will take place at official level. Regarding the first part of the noble Lord’s question, we are indeed looking at the proposals to ensure that, as we have said many times before, Parliament gets the same information as the European Parliament. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister confirmed today that she will make a Statement to Parliament next Wednesday.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Spicer, was whether Article 50 was reversible, but the Minister said in answering that it would not be revoked. Are they not two completely different issues?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Lord picks me up on an interesting point. We have said that, regardless of the legal position, we do not intend to revoke our notice to withdraw.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 13th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall speak on an issue tangential to that raised by my noble friend and ask a couple of simple questions. They are essentially the subject of an amendment that I tabled to the Bill last week and which I subsequently withdrew when it became clear that the amendment on these matters moved by my noble friends on the Front Bench was likely to be carried by the House.

First, under a mixed agreement negotiation, does a negotiated settlement in the Council remain valid as far as the rights of United Kingdom citizens living in Europe are concerned even if such an agreement was not supported in either the European Parliament or in the parliaments of the nation states? Does it stand alone? Secondly, in the event that we were to take this whole debate on EU and UK citizens’ rights outside the Article 50 process, which is essentially what my noble friend appeared to be alluding to, whereby the hurdles of qualified majority voting, a European Parliament vote and approval by nation states were to be avoided, if they are required; and, if we hit problems, and in the event that a number of European states outside Article 50 were to indicate their support for upholding the indefinite rights of UK citizens living in the EU, would the Government in those circumstances be prepared to concede the rights of EU citizens from those same states living in the United Kingdom? That would mean that some states which did not agree would be excluded. If the Government were to do that, it would remove the hurdles of QMV, the European Parliament vote or votes in national parliaments, if they are needed. That approach would lead to a far earlier closure of the whole debate, which Members are concerned will be dragged out over years.

It is all right for the Prime Minister to say that UK citizens’ rights will be top of the Euro agenda, but what worries some of us is that a victory—or a so-called victory—in the Council of Ministers may be pyrrhic and not provide the assurances that people want; and that, despite assurances given in private to David Davis, some countries may seek to carry their decisions on citizenship into arguments over the contribution that the United Kingdom must make to wind-up costs. At the end of the day, despite all these assurances, Governments and nation states in Europe may say, “We are going to turn this into an argument about the contributions the British make”. In that light, I wonder whether the Minister might be prepared to give me a response this evening.

[Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (CB)]

My Lords, I have no doubt whatever that Article 50 must be triggered, and triggered sooner rather than later, but equally I have no doubt about the merits of Motion A1. I supported it before, as did 358 Members of this House—a majority of 102.

Most of the decisions that we take in this House are nicely balanced. This one, I suggest, is perfectly clear and the arguments are compelling. No one doubts the need for the EU nationals who are already lawfully here to remain here for the sake of academia, the health services, the care services, the building industry—note what my noble friend Lord Kerslake said in Committee—and so forth, and no one doubts that those whom we most need to stay are starting to bleed away. We should remember what the noble Lord, Lord Winston, said in Committee about the medics, and read the letter in today’s Times from the academics at Oxford.

The Government say that this assurance is unnecessary and that in fact there is no possibility of our ever wanting to deny these people their present rights, let alone deport them. Of course, logically that is indeed so but, as the haemorrhaging of this group shows, the perception among those affected is, perhaps unsurprisingly, different. Then it is said—it was said by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, in Committee—that fairness demands that all expatriate EU nationals are treated identically and that no assurance should be given to those here until reciprocal assurances are given to our citizens in the other member states. I would give three answers to that suggestion.

First, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and others pointed out in Committee, those representing UK nationals in other EU states positively support our giving this assurance, and they believe—rightly, I suggest—that their case will be strengthened, not weakened, by our now taking this initiative. As the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, said in Committee,

“a generous gesture, freely given”,—[Official Report, 1/3/17; col. 835.]

will assist in creating a good climate for the start of these negotiations with the other 27 nations, difficult though they will be, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has again emphasised today.

Secondly, the stronger the Government’s argument that no assurance is necessary because EU nationals here are desperately needed for our economy and health service and so forth, and therefore they face no risk of losing these rights, the weaker the argument that there is an advantage in keeping the future of the EU nationals here in doubt for the purpose of negotiating our nationals’ future abroad. In short, even if other member states chose not to allow our UK nationals to remain there—and we can understand that in some instances the case for that is rather less compelling than our need to keep EU nationals here—we would still want to keep their nationals here.

Thirdly, it is hardly surprising that the other states are refusing to discuss this issue until we trigger Article 50. However, it is the UK’s decision to pursue Brexit—sensible or not, and there are obviously different views on that—that has precipitated this crisis and created the uncertainty and insecurity felt by this group. I suggest that we can and should allay their fears at the same time as we trigger Article 50. This clause would not delay it—

Brexit: European Union Citizenship

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I thank the noble Lord for that. If he is referring to the issue of UK nationals in the EU and EU nationals in the UK, I assure him that the Prime Minister and the entire Government wish to see it addressed as quickly as possible.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

The Minister referred to discussions in the Home Office in response to the question of identity cards. Are any discussions at all going on in the Home Office about the introduction of some kind of identity documentation?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

Not to my knowledge, my Lords.

Exiting the European Union

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My noble friend makes a very good point. I thank him for sparing the time to talk to me during the summer about a number of these points. He is absolutely right: clearly, across Europe there are many changes and challenges that we will continue to face, some of which are common to us all. We need to be mindful of the fact that we will wish to do so with our European partners, once we have left the EU.

As regards the shape of the single market, again, my noble friend is absolutely right. He has written eloquently on the subject. I saw it in the private sector myself—for example, not least how the digital revolution is changing whole reams of sectors, how people work, and so on.

Finally, I re-emphasise the point that we approach these negotiations to work in good faith with our European partners. We intend to play our full role, respecting the obligations and rights that we have as a member until we leave, and we shall do so in good faith so that, once we have left, we continue to have a strong working relationship.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government have committed themselves today once again to substituting for European expenditure on agriculture; it was said again today in the Statement. Why do they not equally commit themselves to maintaining funds spent by the European Union in the United Kingdom on regional development, where a very large number of jobs are involved? Why just agriculture and not regional development at this stage—or will there be some later statement on that matter?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I am more than happy to meet with the noble Lord. I do not know whether he has had a chance to look at the letter the Chief Secretary has placed on the Treasury website; if not, I shall make sure that it is placed in the Library. It was quite a full statement, covering European structural investment funds, saying that,

“the Treasury will work with departments, Local Enterprise Partnerships and other relevant stakeholders to put in place arrangements for considering those ESIF projects … signed after the Autumn Statement”,

so they,

“remain consistent with value for money and our own domestic priorities”.

I am sure that there will be other funding issues that we will want to discuss. My door is absolutely open, and there may be further points to be raised after or around the Autumn Statement. If the noble Lord would like to meet me to discuss them, I would be happy to do so.