Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Bill

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Berkeley

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 22nd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I had not intended to take part in this debate—I have an amendment a little later—but it seems to me that we are touching on an extremely important subject. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, for tabling these amendments. Following on from what the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has just said, we need to make some practical suggestions. I entirely agree with him when he says we must have exhibitions in Westminster Hall—of course we must; people must know what we are doing—but we need to take them out to the country. I would like to see an exhibition on our restoration and renewal programme in every town and city hall in the country. It is not impossible—indeed, it would be very easy to do it—and modern technology makes it easy to simulate, project, let people have virtual reality shows and all the rest of it. We ought to go to every town and city in the country, so that whether it is Lincoln, where I live, or Wolverhampton, the city next to the constituency I represented for 40 years, people should be able to go and see.

There should be a follow-up, of course, and the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, is right that we should get as many schoolchildren as possible, because it should be part of the citizenship education of every child in this country to come to Parliament. Citizenship is a Cinderella subject; it is badly neglected in many schools. They pay lip service to it, but do not engage in the way they should.

I go further, because I believe we should also endeavour to ensure that people in every university in the country know what we are doing. After all, it is from the universities of this country that most elected parliamentarians —and, indeed, most appointed parliamentarians—in the future will come. If we are to engage in a proper way, we need to do it systematically, practically and with concrete suggestions such as those I am putting forward. Whether it is part of the renewal body’s remit to draw up that programme or whether it wishes to set up some committee of both Houses to discuss the practicalities, that detail is a little further down the line, but that it should be done is very important. Indeed, it must be done.

We are embarking on an enormously expensive exercise. I believe it is totally justified. Democracy is beyond price, and this is the greatest secular building in our country, but it belongs to everyone. This is the people’s Palace—the people’s Parliament. They should know what is being done, why and how. After all, at the end of the day they are paying for it. I would like to see a practical programme drawn up, and nobody would be better able to direct and help in that than the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett. If he wanted to get a few like-minded souls around him, I for one would very happily be involved.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I will just correct the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, because he said this place belongs to everyone. With respect, it does not. We were talking about having a coffee bar in the Royal Gallery—which is a wonderful idea—but a few years ago I asked if I could have a concert there in aid of a charity. I asked Black Rod—not the present Black Rod, of course—who was in charge of the room. He said, “No, you can’t”. I asked, “Why?”. He said, “It belongs to Her Majesty and she won’t allow it”. I asked, “Who advises Her Majesty?”. He said, “I do, and I shall advise her not to”. I asked, “Why is that?”. He said, “It’ll wear the floor out”. It was one of the stupidest reasons. In planning, building regulations and everything else, this is technically a royal Palace. We have to sort all these things out before we end up finding we cannot do something because of some idea that has been around here ever since the place was built.

Ivory Bill

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Berkeley

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 13th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, referred to guidance. I do not want to rehearse again the arguments that we have been through in Committee, on Report and, indeed, at Second Reading, but she will recognise that while there is a unanimous support for the Government’s central aim of dealing with ivory poaching, those who poach and those who deal in illicitly obtained ivory, nevertheless there remain real concerns among those who have legitimately acquired ivory objects in the past and now find that their possessions may well be worthless in the market. There are also many musicians, particularly those who have been in touch with me recently, who are very concerned about the bows of stringed instruments. A lot depends on the sensitivity with which regulations are drafted and guidance is given. I hope that my noble friend, a sensitive as well as sensible man, will take a particularly close interest in the drafting of regulations and the giving of guidance. What we do not want, and what there is a real danger of, is an overwhelming bureaucracy that makes innocent people feel guilty and makes musicians who travel the world feel apprehensive.

As I say, this is not the time to develop these arguments in detail, but it is the appropriate moment to mention them for the last time, and I urge my noble friend to respond with the sensitivity of which I know he is capable so that those who have legitimate concerns about the Bill and its implications can, to some degree, have their minds put at rest, just as those who were concerned, as I was, and as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, was about the civilian officers. My noble friend met us on that point by signing some of the amendments that I had tabled and by endorsing the general line of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge. Could that please be a precedent for the way in which he now issues his guidance and drafts his regulations?

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the Bill very much, but will the Chief Whip say why it was necessary to get the consent of the Queen? Is it because she is worried about the value of the ivory that she might own if it were sold, or is she worried about elephants? They are both good causes, but it seems a bit odd. We should be pleased to have her consent, but does the Duchy of Cornwall own ivory? Why did we not seek the consent of the Duchy as well?

Ivory Bill

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Berkeley

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 10th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

I have the figures here. Of the people who responded to the consultation exercise—and incidentally, 35,000 were identical emails—99% were from three organisations dedicated to the preserving of elephants. We all agree with the elephants’ being preserved, but you do not need to ban the sale of genuine antique items to preserve genuine living elephants.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

Can the noble Lord explain how to tell pre-1918 ivory from more modern ivory? Is there a kind of test that experts can do? Is it reasonably sound, or is it a matter of opinion?

[Lord Cormack]

I hesitate to respond when the noble Baroness has the floor, but, as the question was directed at me, yes, there are people who are expert in this and who are able to assess ivory very carefully. I am not saying that the test is infallible, because nothing is infallible. I referred to faked pictures when I was moving this amendment. It is, however, a very good test. It would pass “Fake or Fortune?” pretty comprehensively every Sunday evening.